8.14 Tara & Michelle: Goodbye Michelle!

Episode Transcript
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Tara Khandelwal (00:03):
Foreign Hi everyone. Welcome back to Books
and Beyond. So today is a veryspecial episode and a little bit
sad as well. But if you're newto our podcast, first of all,
welcome and make sure to followus on Spotify and Apple
podcasts, and don't forget torate us. So let's get into it.
For some of you loyal listenerswho've been with us since the

(00:24):
start, you might be wondering,Where did Michelle go? Well,
Michelle has been doingsomething incredibly exciting.
She's all the way in New Zealandright now, pursuing her MFA and
working on her upcoming novel. Ireally miss her so much on the
show, but luckily, she's herewith us today. And for those of
you listening or tearing up atthis farewell, don't worry, this

(00:45):
is not goodbye. We will haveMichelle back, maybe as a host
again, to interview more authorsand even as an author herself.
So this is not goodbye. Hi,Michelle. Hi Tara,

Michelle D'costa (00:56):
thank you for that. Yes, I really hope this is
not a farewell, because I thinkthe podcast has been one of the
most exciting things that wehave done, you know. I mean,
we've done a lot of things atbound, but I think the podcast
has been really, really fun, andespecially just sort of, you
know, discovering so manydifferent writers in India. And
I really miss that, honestly,but I have been very busy here,

(01:18):
yes, so I have been working onmy MFA, and this is sort of like
a dream come true, I think, forall our followers who know I've
been writing for a very longtime, and I always wondered,
would I ever get a chance towork on my novel, you know,
through an MFA program. And Ican say that, you know, my dream
has come true. So I'm working onmy second novel right now, and

(01:41):
it's sort of like halfwaythrough, so I'm not done, so I
intend to sort of finish thenovel by the end of the year.
And it's been a very interestingjourney for me as a writer,
like, not just through theprogram, but I think just
through, you know, living in avery different part of the
world. I think it has been veryrefreshing for me to sort of,
you know, just like, get sometime out to like work on my

(02:03):
novel with other writers. Solike, we were, like a cohort of
around 10 writers and a verysmall group, and sort of, you
know, very interesting on how,you know, we did like the peer
review and stuff. And there werea lot of moments where I missed,
you know, our retreats, becauseit just got me to this flashback
where we went to Goa on ourretreats, and we would have peer
reviews and all of that. Butyeah, it's been fun.

Yeah, that's so exciting. And, you know, I've
been seeing your journey in NewZealand so far, and it's
continuing as well. And I alsowant to talk more about sort of
the writing scene in NewZealand, because I don't know
much about that. But beforethat, you know this novel that
even working on, I know a littlebit about it, but can you tell
our listeners a little bit aboutwhat the book is about?

Yeah, so, um, it is about an arranged marriage
that really doesn't sort of planout the way the bride and the
groom intended to, right? So it,it's actually written entirely
in second person narration. Andfor those who don't know what
that means, the entire book, youknow, uses the word you, so it

(03:09):
doesn't use i or doesn't use he,she or they, but it's you. So
it's kind of like something thatI've experimented with for a
long time. You know that I'vewritten a lot of short stories
in second person, but this book,the entire book is from the
voice of a female protagonist, awoman in her 30s who's actually
really struggling to find apartner. And then finally, she

(03:31):
settles for someone like, youknow, without going into details
you know, to avoid spoilers, shesettles for someone and then
once they get married, and oncethey actually migrate to the
Middle East, that's when a lotof secrets unfold, and then,
yeah, so the reader finds out alot of details through the
novel. So I think through thisnovel, I'm sort of exploring a

(03:53):
lot of things, actually, notjust the arranged marriage
system, but also, I think,really heavy topics like marital
rape and also, sort of, youknow, like what hyper, hyper
vigilant parenting can do, youknow, very religious parenting
can do. So a lot of themes. Iknow it sounds very nerdy right

(04:14):
now, but I do hope when thebook, you know, hopefully, like
when it's done and when it comesout into the world. I do hope
that people will enjoy thestory. Because I think for me,
the the biggest aim is to sortof make it entertaining at the
end of the day, you know,thought provoking, yes. But also
like, hopefully it should beentertaining, yeah. And I hope
you like it too, Tara, because Iknow that you like love stories.

(04:36):
Like, literally, love stories.
So I mean, this is technicallynot a love story, but it
explores like, you know, likelayers to like romantic
relationships.

I think what you were talking about, I think
it's right up my alley, youknow, because all of the themes,
these are some things that wealso talk about a lot, right?
And we've spoken about it a lotwith the kind of authors we've
chosen and the books that we'veread together. So I think these
are themes that are veryinteresting. Stick to me as
well. And I know how much sortof like of a labor of love this
book has been, because I knowhow much sort of like effort

(05:07):
also it's been for you to takeit ahead.

Yeah. So, you know, as you know, Tara, it's
been like a labor of love. It'sbeen so much like, you know,
time, energy and thought, like,put into it. So I definitely
want to see it through to theend, because if there's one
thing that I really don't likeis leaving projects halfway. So
I do think that, you know, everybook has its own journey and
needs, like, you know, time ofits own. So what I'm trying to

(05:32):
do is actually like, focus andtake time out just to finish the
book, because I'm just halfwaythrough. So yeah, so I think
that's why I sort of have to saybye right now for the podcast.
But I don't see it as an end. Ireally do hope you know that I
get to come back. I get to sortof interview more interesting
writers. And just seeing thenumber of writers coming out

(05:53):
with amazing stuff right now inIndia, it just makes me sort of
really miss it. But I do wantto, like, you know, take some
time out to, just like, finishthe novel.

No, absolutely, I know how much sort of you know
this means to you, and I can'twait to have both the books out
because, because, you know,obviously you'll be coming back
here, we'll be interviewing alot of people, but you'll be
coming back here as an author,which I think, you know, is
super special, not only for me,but also for listeners who've
heard you on the last eightyears talk about and we've been

(06:23):
doing this podcast for eightyears, and that's so wild to
think about. And who have beenhearing you talk about this
writing journey. So to see thatcome to fruition, I think, is
going to be very fulfilling fornot only sort of me and you, but
everyone who's been listening inas well and come and coming, and

(06:44):
coming back to Books and Beyond.
You know, it's interesting,because I think we had 150 160
episodes in we have done thisfor eight years. We have
interviewed the biggest of thebiggest, you know, names like
Amitabh, shitra, Banerjee, JerryPinto, but also we've
discovered, and for me, that'sthe most interesting part of
what we do is and that's what Iplan to continue, you know,

(07:07):
doing as well, is to discoverthese new voices and take new
Indian books to our audiences,because we really want to
promote the culture of reading.
As you said, there's so muchcoming out in India today, in so
many themes and so many stories.
Yeah,

and I want to add here Tara that for me, like,
you know, when I was justthinking about thinking back on
all the seasons that we haverecorded for me, you know, what
has been like, the biggest sortof takeaway? Because I think you
know that I'm a big, avidfiction reader, so no one has to
sort of tell me to go and pickup fiction. I'll go, and that's
what I'm doing. Actually, almostevery day I go to the Auckland

(07:47):
Public Library instead of borrowbooks. I might not end up
reading all of them, but, youknow, it's just, it's a thrill.
It's sort of, you know, it'sjust a high that I get so but,
but one thing that sort of wasreally interesting for me
throughout the podcast is that Iwas really fascinated with the
non fiction that came out,right? So I think some books
that that come to mind is getout by Anirudh mohale. Then, you

(08:12):
know, Tara Kaushal lab, but whymen rape? Then I think heavy
metal by Amir Shah. So these arejust a few books, but for me, I
think if it was not for thepodcast, I would have just
thought, you know, naturallypicked up these non fiction
books, and I'm so glad I did,and now it's definitely made me
more aware of non fiction, andat least the way they've the way

(08:33):
they write it, because what I'veseen over the past few years is
that it's not just the topic,but it's the approach to The
topic that I find reallyfascinating. So everyone has
their own style, you know, eventhough they are journalists,
even though they are writers,everyone has their own unique
approach to it. For me, that'ssort of been the most
interesting part. I think,

no, absolutely, yeah, that unique approach. I
think we both learned so much.
Like, you know, when we firststarted out, we didn't know much
about books or sports, forexample, and I don't know about
poetry, and we really also tryto push ourselves through the
podcast to read more and to readwidely, because that's what
we're trying to promote as well.
And you know, so much haschanged between then and now
with podcasts, with the podcast,with life bound. You know, we

(09:17):
started this in 2019 so noteight years, but six, six years,
which is a long, long time. Sowhere do you think you know? How
do you have? How do you thinkyou know you've changed as a
person? Let's use this type ofreflective, you know, and like
reminiscing from that firstpodcast, which we did, you know.
And Manu Pillai was the firstguest that we had, and he was so

(09:37):
sweet, and he agreed to come andwe recorded it in person, and
that was the first episode wereleased. And we couldn't have
imagined that Books and Beyondwould do so well, that authors
would come to us, you know,wanting us to feature them where
it was so difficult to get thosefirst few authors. Yeah, how
like, let's talk about, let's goto our memory lane. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I think for me, yeah, it has
definitely really sort ofenriched me as an interviewer.
Because, you know, right, I usedto interview authors before,
like on my blog, which was avery written medium, and then,
you know, when we startedrehearsing, going to the studio
to record, and then movingonline in the pandemic, I think
it has been very interesting,like this. I think the audio

(10:23):
visual medium is definitelysomething that's going to just
grow from now on, right? Like,like, I mean, though we have
print, obviously, but I alsothink that audio visual has a
lot of potential. And for me,that's something that I think
that was a very, reallyinteresting change as an
interviewer, and I think as aperson, I think just, you know,
discussing the scripts with you,reading co reading books with

(10:45):
you, has been super interesting.
Because I think let's say, forexample, see if it's let's say
one person you will have, youknow, very like you will have a
very particular approach, forexample, right, to pick books,
to interview authors. But Ithink when you have two minds,
and when you discuss it, itbecomes, you know, way more
entertaining, way moreinteresting. And I just love the
bits where, you know, we agreedon things. But what I also like

(11:07):
is that you notice some thingsthat I didn't, and I noticed
things that you didn't. And Ithink for me, that has been a
very interesting

approach. I think it's always like, really
fun to sort of read a book withsomebody, to discuss it with
someone I definitely wasn't. Ifeel like I've grown a lot as an
interviewer, and I can seethings in books that I didn't
before, and I can sort of seethings in people that I didn't
before, and really try andunderstand how to get you know,
really good answers from them,get the best out of them, and

(11:37):
get you know more interestinganecdotes from them, because at
the end of the day, we want thispodcast to be interesting as
well. So I think for me, yeah,the biggest takeaway has been
the quality of the conversationsthat I feel you know, were
really good because we worked. Iremember the first season we a
lot of the authors did actually,like two or three takes with us

(11:58):
before we published episodes,because we were new at that
time. So we needed the practice.
And we sat and printed out everytranscript, you know, and we
edited it three or four times. Istill remember we spent so much
time editing this podcast,rehearsing. We did many, many
script iterations till wefinally got so it's been a lot

(12:18):
of work, I think, to get thatformat right, and that format
because of the work we did.
Think we spent six months beforewe even published the first
episode. And I think because wedid that groundwork, you know,
that format has pretty much sortof stuck on. It did really well,
but we've also managed toiterate, you know, within that

(12:40):
format, and always keepexperimenting and pushing
boundaries. So for me, I thinkdefinitely becoming a better
interviewer, seeing, as yousaid, new aspects, new angles,
and consistently sort of alsogoing beyond the comfort zone.
So for example, you know, evenin the coming episodes, the kind
of curation, the kind of booksthat you know your I am able to

(13:02):
pick or see the quality of theconversations I feel at least
and I hope the listeners willagree, is a lot deeper now,
which I personally enjoy,because I think even when we
read, we want to we want to askourselves questions. We want to
be stimulated, and that's one ofthe things that books do. And
secondly, it's a lot of fun,because there's so many stories
behind the stories, behind thestories. And some of the stories

(13:24):
are quite wild, yeah.

And also that makes me just think about all
the, like, different kind ofepisodes we have done, just so
many different topics, you know,like, I think, yeah, I think
especially, like interviewingwith you, it's been interesting
because, you know, like stories,like entrepreneurial stories,
for example, you know, likesomething that maybe I would
have not, you know, ordinarilygone for. I think it's super
interesting because we have notonly interviewed like authors

(13:48):
who are writers. I think for me,what's also interesting is
because I am a writer, I oftenlike, of course, like love to
know the approach of otherwriters. But what's also
refreshing is when you get tomeet a writer who's not
conventionally, a writer, right?
Who, probably, you know, who hasa very different day job, or,
let's say, for example, who's anentrepreneur, or, you know,
like, like, we have done bookson, like, leadership. We have

(14:08):
done books on different kinds ofthinking, which I think is, is
really interesting, right?
Because I think everyone has adifferent approach, but also
everyone has a differentbackground. So whenever I like,
you know, come on a podcast. I'mlike, Okay, I want to know, you
know, when did that all start?
What was the inspiration? So Ithink it's just, it's, it's
curiosity that sort of drivesit, but it's made it super

(14:29):
interesting over the years.
Because I also feel that story,like certain trends have been
changing in storytelling, andyou must have noticed it, right?
So I do think that we have moreof nonfiction, and maybe I can
give you a little more insightinto a New Zealand storytelling.
Because over here, when I camehere, I found it very
interesting that it's not just,you know, let's say stories from

(14:53):
like a particular community or aparticular, you know, age group,
and all of that, you havedifferent kinds of stories. So
for example. People have beenintroduced to stories about
Maori people, right? So they,you know, they are the
indigenous people here and andit's very interesting to read
their stories as well. So you doget, I would say, different
insights, you know, and it'ssort of like, I would say more

(15:15):
insight into the Pacific part ofthe world. So over here, that's
definitely, I think there's morespace for different kinds of
stories. And I think that's beenthat's been very interesting to
discover.

Actually, I wanted to ask you a little bit
more about the New Zealandwriting scene, because that's
something I don't think in thispodcast that we've explored.
We've not got there yet. Icertainly intend to sort of
explore from more from all overthe world we've explored, you
know, the subcontinent, a lot ofSri Lankan, Nepali, Pakistani,
books, different parts of India,different, you know, breadths of
India, but I really don't knowmuch about the New Zealand

(15:47):
literary scene. So is there avery thriving publishing scene?
Is it bigger than India's? Andwhen you say different kind of
stories, what kinds of thingsyou know are the big publishing
houses there? I don't knowanything. Please educate me?

Sure? Yeah, I would say it is. It's pretty
much, I would say you're prettymuch like India, in a way, where
you have big publishing houses,like Penguin, you know, and at
the same time you also havesmall presses, indie presses,
who come out with, like, poetry,they come out with little, you
know, memoirs and all of that.
Yeah, I do think that it there'slike a variety of voices here.

(16:21):
So for example, you do havedifferent presses that publish
very academic work, right? Sothere are, like university
presses that come out withacademic work. But on the other
hand, you also have veryinteresting stories, like why a
young adult is booming. Sothere's a lot about that. Then
there's a lot of space for Maorivoices. There's a lot of space

(16:41):
for women and queer writers,which is something that I find
very interesting. So definitely,I would say publishing is super
interesting in New Zealand. Butthere's also another observation
that over here, there's a verylarge readership of books that
are published in the US and inthe UK, just like India, yeah.
So they are very popular. So ifyou look at the charts, these

(17:03):
books sort of like, you know,top the chart. So it's more like
international publishing. So alot of readers love, you know,
let's say authors like Jodypickle or or, you know, John
Grisham or James Patterson, andall the, all the, you know, most
famous names. So that'ssomething, and it has a very
avid reading culture. I will saythat whenever I go out, like,

(17:23):
you know, it could be a park, itcould be a mall, it could be a
museum, or, you know, a library,whatever people are always
reading. And that, for me is,like, super interesting. Of
course, it could be, like,different genres, but
definitely, there's a readingculture here, yeah,

I remember when I went to the UK and in the tube
on in the tunnels, there wereposters of books, you know, like
billboards of books. And I waslike, Oh, wow. Like, such a
great reading culture. Theremust be that the publishers can
afford to put billboards ofbooks. I've never seen a
billboard of a book in India.
But in terms of, like, sort of,you said, yeah. Like one thing,
I understand, it's an Englishspeaking population, so books

(18:02):
from the UK and the US, youknow, they're still sort of
popular all over the world, butin terms of, you know, the
topics that you discover thatyou were talking about within
New Zealand, like, Can you namea few books and tell me what,
what they're about that areinteresting from New Zealand?

Um, yeah. So on three books, okay, let me
think. All right, I think thefirst one that comes to mind is
delirious by Damian Wilkins.
He's actually the director ofthe MFA program at University of
Victoria, University of VictoriaWellington, all right, and the
book won, like the Occam BookAwards this time, and just the

(18:40):
excerpt from what was like readout in the event, I was like,
Okay, I have to read this book.
And it's so much in demand thatif you go to the library, it's
like, a lot of people havealready requested it, so you're
like, waiting in the queue. So Ithink it's very interesting,
because it's about two elderlypeople and sort of how they
navigate life, like, you know,like, sort of like, towards the
end, and sort of how they comeup to it. And I think it

(19:01):
involves mental health and and Ithink for me, the most
interesting one of the book ishumor, you know? And I think,
honestly, it's very tough towrite humor, so I'm really
looking forward to read thatbook. It's something that's
really, really popular rightnow. I think another book that
I'm really looking forward toread is see how they fought by
Rachel Paris. And I think Rachelis, like, an alumni of our

(19:22):
program at the University ofAuckland, and it's a gripping
thriller. And what I findinteresting is that, you know,
sometimes Tara and, like, youhear about the typical MFA
books, or typical, you know,like literary fiction, what I
like is that yours, like,there's a variety. So if you
want a thriller, you'll get athriller. You know, it's, it
doesn't like, sort of fall intothe literary fiction bracket. So

(19:43):
it's very entertaining. So Ireally want to read that.
Another book, I think it cameout a few years ago. It's by
Angelique kasmara. It's calledisobar precinct, and it's
actually speculative fiction,but set in the streets of
Auckland. So for me, it's morelike, it's also like travel, you
know, you get to like, because Iwant. Explore the place, you
know, I've been here for a year,but, you know, there's only so

(20:04):
much that you can explore, youknow. So I do want to read this
book to sort of explore thenooks and crannies of Auckland,
and that too, from like a personwho's been here for from a long
time. So, yeah, there's avariety, yeah. So once
speculative fiction, one isliterary fiction, one is a
thriller.

Michelle, a little bit more about, you know,
the MFA program and New Zealandin general. I've always wanted
to visit New Zealand, so I knowwhat. It's really beautiful. So
tell me about your experience inthe MFA program and New Zealand.

Okay, so it's definitely, I think, one of
those experiences that peopleshould not miss out on. One
thing is definitely so just to,like, talk a little bit about
New Zealand, it's very calm,it's very peaceful, and sort of
like, you know, like when peopletalk about, and we've also
interviewed a lot of writers whosay they want to move to the

(20:56):
hills, and, you know, just tosort of be away from the city
and the noise, I think NewZealand has those vibes
definitely. And so I live in thecity, which is, I mean, but
coming from Bombay, I don't findit noisy at all. But if you ask
people here, they find the cityvery like noisy. In comparison.
I think the suburbs are sort oflike, you know, quieter. But

(21:19):
definitely throughout NewZealand, the wives are just
like, relaxing, you know,chilling, for example, let's say
if work ends at five, it ends atfive. There's no work after
that. So people just chill. AndI think, you know, people like,
sleep around seven or 730 that'sdone. They're done for the day.
So, yeah, it's, I would say,like, the opposite of what

(21:39):
Bombay is and, you know, theRussian although that's, I think
that's been, yeah, pretty,pretty interesting when it comes
to the MFA program. Definitely,I think I've had a lot of fun,
especially with my professor,with my supervisor, Paula
Morris, so it's, what's, what'sreally I think for me, the
biggest sort of takeaway is thatI think it's very important that

(22:01):
your supervisor or professorgets what you're trying to do.
So she really, like, sort of,she was very welcoming of the
second person narration, which Ifound very, very helpful, right?
And, you know, she's also, like,a big fan of the namesake when
Jampa Lahiri, and so I thinkit's just, you know, like having

(22:22):
a very supportive cohort, havinghaving that atmosphere where,
you know, you get to not onlyget feedback on your work,
right? So it's not just focusedon yours, but you also get to
read and critique others work. Ifound that very interesting. So,
you know, without going intodetails, I'll just tell you,
like some of my classmates, theyare working on, like a fantasy
novel set in, like a completelymade up world. Then some of them

(22:46):
are setting something in a placevery much like what we know, but
then it's sort of like notreally a place that we know of.
So it's just sort of given, likea fictional name, but we clearly
know that it exists out there.
So it's sort of like dystopianfantasy. Someone's writing a
thriller, someone's writingliterary fiction about grief
between, you know, two sisters.

(23:08):
So there's just, I think there'sso much variety. So for me, it's
just been so much fun becauseI've also not, I've been able
to, like, you know, engage inother stories apart from my own.
So it's just been, it's been alot of fun. And also, by the
way, we had a few guestlectures, and the most recent
one was by the Booker Prizewinner, Samantha Harvey. I don't

(23:28):
know if you've read her book,Tara, so it's a very slim book,
actually, and it's, it's aboutpeople set in space. Yeah, it's
the whole book is actually, yes,you have, okay, yeah, amazing,
yeah. So she spoke to us aboutit, and it was very, very
interesting. So actually, shecame here for the Auckland

(23:49):
Writers Festival. It was a lotof fun. I actually volunteered
there, and just sort of seeing,you know, the the number of
people who turned up, and I'mlike, Oh, wow, that's great
people. People love readinghere. I think for me,
definitely, the highlight of thefestival was watching Gollum
Tobin, you know, speaking. So hewas speaking to my professor.

(24:10):
She interviewed him, and it wasjust so much fun, because he's
hilarious, you know. So it's notjust his work that's very
engaging, but he's also very,very engaging as a speaker, so
that was a lot of fun.

Sounds like a dream come true. I would love to
live in a place that's so IvyLake, and then, you know, even
interacting with the otherstudents in their work, and I'm
sure they would have amazingfeedback for your work as well.
It must have helped you so muchthat collaboration and other
students, they are from NewZealand, or they're from all
over the world, yes, yes. So

actually, yeah, they are from New Zealand.
But also it's like, you know,they might have originally been
from somewhere else, but thenthey have moved to New Zealand.
So some of them have been herefor, like, years. Some of them
have been born here, but some ofthem were actually born
somewhere else and come here. Soyeah,

so you're one of the few international
students. Yes, actually,

I. Am the only one, really only? Yes, I'm the
only one. So, oh, so, yeah. Imean, it is, it is interesting,
yeah, because I think with otherdegrees and other courses, you
do have a lot of internationalstudents, actually. So let's
say, if you pick commerce orscience, right, it's common. But
I think because it's creativewriting and it's art, so that

(25:21):
was the only one I would say I Idefinitely didn't feel like I
was the only internationalstudent, if you know what I
mean, because everyone's storyhad something or another about,
like, moving places, about, youknow, having, having, like,
different cultures or different,you know, different sort of
exposure to sort of differentcultures. So I think that's

(25:43):
that's been very interesting.

And I think this theme of migration is very
interesting to you as well,which is what you explored in
your first novel. So how do youthink, sort of like the MFA has
changed your writing from, youknow, your first novel, which is
getting published by Westland,to now this novel that you're
writing about, has it sort ofchange in any way? Yeah,

that's a very good question, dharav, because
I've been thinking about that alot. And I think one thing that
has really, really changed forthe second novel is the pace of
my novel. So in the first one, Itried to cover a lot of story
within less number of words,right? And it's sort of like I
prefer novels that are slim orthat Athena, and I know that

(26:23):
nowadays, you know, a lot of usreally struggle to pay attention
to, you know, it's quitedifficult to read like a larger
novel. So as a writer, I alsowant to write something that's
entertaining, that's that'sconcise and sort of, you know,
tells the story, but within fewwords. So definitely, I'll say
in my second novel, what I'velearned is it's okay to to take

(26:44):
things slow. So if you have alot of story, it's fine to,
like, write a little more,right, instead of rushing
through it. So that's somethingthat's really helped. And I
think I'm definitely going to,you know, take away the lessons
and and, you know, rewrite, orsort of, maybe not rewrite, but
tweak the manuscript of my firstnovel, if I can. Yeah,

can you do that? Since it's already sort of
gone to a publisher and pickedup? Yeah, yeah.

It's, yeah, it has been picked up. But then
it's with my editor, so that'ssomething that I can, I can
discuss with my editor, and Ican definitely make it better.
Yeah. Oh,

that's fantastic. So that's, that's
exciting, that you have twotitles out and not to mention
the poetry, which is a wholedifferent part of you. So, you
know, like you've had somedistance from the Indian
publishing scene. You've, youknow, we've worked together for
so many years, very closely. Youknow, helping writers, helping
other people, sort of bringtheir stories out into the

(27:38):
world. Worked in tandem with theIndian publishing industry, but
now that you had some distancefrom it, you know, what do you
think of Indian publishingtoday? What's the biggest shift
that you might have noticed?

I think, over the years, just the kind of
writing we have witnessed, youknow, I feel that definitely
publishers are taking morerisks, and that, for me, is like
a big change, you know, let'ssay like, maybe seven years ago,
eight years ago, the kind ofbooks that I was exposed to when
I was studying in Bangalore,right? You know, I just started

(28:09):
reading a lot of Indian fiction.
There was not much of variety,for sure. But now I think that
publishers are definitely givingmore space to different kinds of
voices. So for me, that'sinteresting, because, you know,
after a point, you just getbored reading the same kind of
stories. But then there's a lotof experimentation. There's a
lot of risk taken. So I do thinkthat the publishing scene is
thriving. Also. We have morepublishers, and we have agents

(28:32):
now, which were in there, like,you know, years ago. So I do
think that the publishing scenehas changed quite a bit. Yeah,

it's very interesting to hear, you know,
from someone who has somedistance from it. And I also
want to live an idyllic life inthe hills one day. So let's see
if that ever happens. But yeah,just wrapping up, what do you
what do you think, like lookingback Books and Beyond? What do
you think, sort of, you know,your top three favorite
interviews that we did together?
Oh my

gosh, that is so tough. Sarah, it's really
tough to pay because there areso many, okay, maybe I'll just
tell you, yeah, three that sortof, I would say the kind of like
my dream interviews. You know,one was definitely Vivek
shanbaug, because it's not justbecause it's a translation, but
because I loved his book, gacharKocher, and I always wanted to

(29:23):
interview him. So we managed tointerview him for Sakina kiss.
And we also, you know, got himto answer a few questions about
so that was a very interestinginterview. I think another one
would be Riya Mukherjee. Ithink, you know, because we go,
like, really long back. So Iremember I first discovered her
work online, not even sure howlong ago. I think 1010, 10 to 12

(29:46):
years ago. And then I've beenfollowing her journey. And then
I was so happy that we got herto interview her, not just once,
but twice, on the podcast. Sothat was definitely a lot of
fun. Um, I would say probablythe third one would be Amitabh
Ghosh, um. Because it was just,it was unbelievable. That moment
was just like, you know, like, Ithink both of us are starstruck

(30:06):
when we interviewed him.
Definitely. I think he's donecommendable work when it comes
to, like, climate, you know,activism through writing, very
interesting. So I think the nutmix curse was one of the, you
know, few books that sort ofreally opened my eyes, to sort
of climate change, because, youknow, you read a lot of things,
but there are very few storiesthat stay with you. So those are
one of the stories that stayedwith me. I want to add one more,

(30:28):
though, I know you've asked herto pick three, but if I could
add one more, I think definitelyit would be Amrita mahalis
interview, and I'll tell youwhy. The reason is because she
talks about rejection, in a way,I think her book was rejected
quite a few times before she gotpublished. So for me, when I was
getting a lot of rejections formy work, I still remember
listening to the interview onloop, and that really helped me

(30:50):
as a writer. So I definitelythink these would be but I want,
I want to know what's yours. I'msure they'll be very different.

It's similar like, I think those were
definitely highlight ones forme. Amitabh Mahale, Amitabh
Ghosh, I think one of thehighlights for me was Chitra
Banerjee, because you know howmuch I love historical fiction,
you know how much I love herbooks, and getting her on the
podcast talking about herwriting process was really,
really fantastic. I also reallylike Amitabha Kumar's interview.

(31:23):
He's a professor at Vassar, andI actually studied at Vassar for
a year, and he spoke about justobserving and making stories
about the everyday and themundane. And I thought that was
very powerful, and his powers ofobservation. And another
interview that I really likedwas Damodar mauso, who is
actually, you know, a stall,literally stalwart, won so many

(31:46):
amazing awards, and is alsolives in a small Goan village
and runs a little shop there.
And his short stories, I foundthem really lovely, and their
stories about, you know, life inGoa, which I really enjoyed as
well. So those were some of thestandout ones. Another one that
I really, really liked was Soniafelleros interview, because she,
the way that she writesnarrative nonfiction is just, I

(32:09):
just find it the most amazing.
She's one of my favorite writersin that genre, and even the
topics that she covered, becauseshe covers topics about women.
So the first book was, you know,beautiful thing, which is about
bar dancers in Bombay and thelives of bar dancers. And then
the book that we interviewed herfor was called The Good girls,

(32:31):
where she talks about, you know,these three girls who were found
dead, and the case behind them.
And she went into school, also,I think, two girls, two girls
actually went, you know, intothose villages and viewed all
those people. So I think thosewere some standout interviews
for me as well. And then I justremember so many topics that
we've covered, you know, from abook, you know, called Meow,

(32:56):
meow, which is about, sort ofthis drug woman, drug dealer in
Bombay called Baby fromwildlife, we've interviewed Jan
ki Lennon to cricket. To, as yousaid, business books,
biographies, story of whiskey inIndia. To, you know, Kavita
Rao's book about the firstfemale doctors. Ira mukhothi

(33:20):
book about the unsung queens andMughal times. So so many
different topics, and so manyfiction books also we've
covered, you know, I rememberTejas when he upped his
interview, which was about, it'sa fiction novel which I really,
really loved. Again, historicalfiction called, sorry, called
The Secret of more. And it'sabout the silent film industry

(33:40):
in India, and it's historicalfiction about that so many
books, fiction and non fictionthat we've covered. And I'm
looking forward to the nextseason and the next few episodes
as well, because the lineup thatwe've had, I think, is just
getting better and better,richer and richer and deeper.
And the kind of conversations,you know, every what I love

(34:00):
about doing this is we 150conversations in and I can't
think of any conversation thatis the same. Every conversation
is something new. Adds a newperspective, a new dimension,
you know, gives a new storybehind the story, and is
entertaining. And I think that'swhat motivates me also to keep
going. One is, of course, youknow the lovely feedback from

(34:22):
our listeners. And I met aperson at a retreat, I hope he's
listening right right now, whosaid he's listening to every
single episode, which is a lotof episodes. But the other thing
is that no conversation is thesame, which is supremely
fascinating. And we've had somany journeys and highlights
also with the podcast where we,you know, remember going and

(34:43):
doing the Tata literature live,where we had to interview
authors, or doing, you know,series with different publishers
and different people. And thefirst time, we also got Bora
Chang on the platform, which isa booker prize. Even if you book
a prize winner. So these haveall been moments you know that
you remember and you reflect andlook back on. And it was really

(35:05):
nice, actually, to do this withyou, because one never gets a
chance to sort of look back inthis way. So it was really
lovely to have that opportunityto look back with you, yeah,

and I think you know just, I think you
mentioned secret of more, right?
Tara, so that really made methink about books that made us
explore places better. I thinkfor me, that was one of the
highlight as well. So forexample, books that cover
Bombay, right? Let's say we havedone two, three episodes. For
example, Secret of more, evendamianti Biswas book. So it
covers this whole, you know,milieu of bar dancers in Bombay,

(35:39):
or you could say even Delhinovels like Deepti Kapur, you
know. So I think, for me, eventhe fact that it could be, let's
say, about one place, but howdifferent writers explore that?
So I think that's something thatwe have done very well, sort of,
I think, in the podcast as well.
Yeah, yeah.

I think, yeah, there's a lot happening in the
publishing space. As you said,you know, a lot more stories. I
think the future of storytellingis looking very bright. There's
a lot of local stories now beingtold with global confidence. The
writing that we have in India, Ithink, you know, has always been
at a world class level, and it'sjust getting there more and
more. You know, we just realizedKiran they sir, sorry, Kiran de

(36:19):
sai is new novel is beingshortlisted for the Booker.
We've had international BookerPrize winners all of these
amazing pieces of literature nowgoing from India to the world,
and that is something that Ialso want to do a lot more on
this podcast.

Yeah, I think even me, Tara, I'm like, really
looking forward to sort ofwhat's coming up. You know, I do
think that with Kiran DESA isshortlisting. I mean,
definitely. I mean, she's afabulous writer. But also I feel
like Indian writers are startingto being, you know, noticed and
and I think definitely with thepodcast, like, my hope, my
really, my hope is that a lotmore people start reading right

(36:59):
Indian writers based in India,right? Because there are a lot
of Indian writers based outsideIndia, right? Of course, like,
like the diaspora that you knoware well read and people know
about them. But I think I reallyhope that through the podcast,
they get to really discover thegems that are in India, and they
are writing there, becausethere's a lot, and then they're
writing about really amazingstuff. So definitely, I hope

(37:20):
that they pick them. It couldeven be like, you know, one
writer, but I really hope thatit will sort of expand their
worldview, or sort of just seethe richness in India. And just
to add to that, I thinkespecially books that are
written in translation fromregional languages, we have
covered quite a few on thepodcast, and that's something

(37:40):
that's that's really rare,right? Because you're writing in
regional languages, but then,you know, it gets translated
into English, and very few ofthese books make it outside,
yeah, so I do hope that in thisway, it reaches a larger
audience.

No, absolutely on the same page with you. So
what are the next few monthsgonna look like for you?
Michelle,

definitely.
I'm gonna be very hard on myselfwhen it comes to trying to
finish the novel. And the reasonis because if I get distracted,
which I often do, I think it'sjust gonna take away longer,
more time. And I'm a bitimpatient when it comes to
finishing these projects. Andthat's how I actually finished
my first book. Like, I set adeadline, and I was like, I have
to finish it within this time.

(38:24):
So definitely, the next fewmonths are going to be very
hectic when it comes to writing,because, like, even the first
half, there was so much ofrewriting and writing, like,
even though the it was like,Finally, 40,000 words, I'm sure
I would have written probablydouble, right? Because then you
rewrite, and then you're like,Okay, does this make sense? Is
not, is this okay? So it'sdefinitely going to be. It

(38:45):
involve a lot of writing, butwhat I'm also hoping to do is
I'll get time to read more. I'vebeen reading really interesting
books, and I wanted to recommendthis to you. I'm not sure if you
have sort of explored thiscategory, right? So it's sort
of, it's sort of like, calledthe housewife syndrome, the
1950s housewife suburb syndrome.
So it's actually reallyinteresting. There is a movie

(39:09):
that I would also recommend toyou. So it's called, don't
worry, darling. If you likehorror, if you like dystopian,
you might like it. Okay? And Iwould also recommend a book.
It's called the most by JessicaAnthony, very slim book, you
know, very interesting aboutthis couple. Um, so if you're
interested in, like, um, aromantic relationship, but also,

(39:32):
like, sort of secrets within amarriage, and sort of exploring
the, you know, what a suburbanhousewife's life is like you
might like it. So that'ssomething I've been I've been
reading, and I really enjoyedit.

Interesting is that a book like based in New
Zealand? No, no, it's not okay.
So that was such a greatconversation, Michelle, I think
I'm really gonna miss having youhere like this. But as I said
before, it's just goodbye fornow. And. And we will be back
with more episodes. In themeantime, look forward to our
next few episodes, because thereare going to be many more and

(40:05):
some very interestingconversations coming along your
way.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Tara. This has
been so much fun. I'm definitelygoing to miss it, but yes,
hopefully I should be back andbecause I think Indian writing
is only going to get better fromhere. So I can't wait to explore
more of it.

So follow along and make sure to hit the
subscribe button on Spotify andApple podcasts until next time,
happy reading. Hope you enjoythis episode of Books and Beyond
with bound.

This podcast is created by bound, a company
that helps you grow throughstories. Find us at bound India
on all social media platforms,tune

in every wedding day as we peek into the
lives and minds of somebrilliant authors from India and
South Asia. You.

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