May 7, 2025 • 37 mins
Should we boycott problematic authors—or just read them with guilt? Tara and Michelle dive into the messy politics of author scandals, from cancel culture to complicity. Plus, what happens when AI writes a book? Would you read it? Should it even exist?
Tune in for a no-holds-barred chat on the ethics of art, the limits of accountability, and how readers can show up for real authors in a shifting industry. They also spill on their own reading dilemmas and the murky line between loving the work and questioning the creator.
Books mentioned:
- Train to Pakistan by Khushwant Singh
- Dalit Kitchen of Marathwada by Shahu Patole
- Books by Janice Pariat
- The Twits by Roald Dahl
- Jasoda by Kiran Nagarkar
- Fault In Our Stars by John Green
- Neopolitan Novels by Elena Ferrante
- Harry Potter Series By J.K. Rowling
‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tara Khandelwal (00:02):
Welcome to Books and Beyond. With bound I
am Tara Khandelwal and I amMichelle D'Costa, in this
podcast, we talk to India'sfinest authors and uncover the
stories behind the best writtenbook and dissect how these books
shape our lives and world viewstoday. So let's dive in. So how
(00:23):
are you, Michelle, how's NewZealand going?
Michelle D'costa (00:25):
Hey, it's going good. I'm having fun. And
I think in the past nine months,I've seen three seasons. I came
I landed here in like, peakwinter. There was summer, and
now it's autumn, so it rainsjust any time of the day, so I
don't know when to carry myumbrella and when not to but
(00:47):
otherwise, it's going good. I'mworking on my second novel, and
it's sort of like it's verychallenging, because I've
reached that stage where I'msort of not just writing the
first draft, but also, likepolishing it. So it's no it's
very stressful, but it's alsofun. What about you? What's
going on with you? It's been solong since we met? Yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (01:07):
I know like we usually talk only about work and
things. So these podcasts are agood way to also catch up that
what's going on with me? Nothingmuch. I think it's just sort of
like mango season and summer,and I'm just very excited about
this new season, because we havequite a few, you know,
interesting authors and, yeah,things at bound are really
(01:30):
chaotic, as you know, but reallygood. So let's talk about like,
speaking of chaos, you know,let's get into today's topic. So
the question we're going to beanswering today is, can you
separate the art from theartists? Yeah, I mean,
Michelle D'costa (01:44):
I remember, you know, I was discussing this
in like, one form or anotherwhile we used to have our lunch
breaks in the office. And it's,I think it's sort of
interesting, because, see, forme, honestly, this is something
I didn't think about growing up,you know, and you know, like,
for me, like I studied in a CBSEsyllabus. And, you know, just
like in any curriculum, what weare always given, like, a
(02:07):
certain text, a certain, youknow, textbooks to read. And
obviously, you know, as a kid,you don't know much, and of
course, like, I loved thestories that I grew up with,
like, you know, they literally,like made me imagine. They made
me sort of think they made mewant to read. They made me want
to write. It was so much fun.
But also, now that I've grownup, and I sort of, you know,
look back and I rereadsomething, right? This happened
(02:29):
to me the other day wheresomeone was just, you know, in
New Zealand, asking me, What didyou study in India? What was the
sort of curriculum you had? Andthen when we had this
discussion, and when I mentionedcertain writers, I realized
that, oh, like, okay, you knowthat some of their works might
not go down that well,especially, especially in
today's day and age and and Isort of realized that, yes,
like, you know, like, we all arehumans, right? We all are we all
(02:51):
are people. We're people withdifferent personalities,
different thoughts, all of that.
And that really made me startthinking about the art versus
artist. I don't know what aboutyou? Have you always been
thinking about this?
Tara Khandelwal (03:04):
So I think the bigger question of someone's
work was such a big part of yourchildhood, and you realize their
values don't align with yourslater on, do you still read
their books, or do you just moveon? And yeah, I think the answer
is tricky, because the work isdefinitely part of your memory,
right? It's part of who you werewhen you first read it. And I
don't think we need to throwthat all away, but I do think we
(03:26):
need to read it a bitdifferently right now, with a
little more awareness. Forexample, I recently picked up
train to Pakistan again. And,you know, I really love
partition novels. I did mythesis on the partition as well,
and it's a brilliant novel, andwhen you read it, there's a when
you read his writing today,there's a lot that feels dated,
you know, because I remember he,I once read that. He said
(03:48):
feminism is a Western import.
Indian women don't need it, youknow, which is a ridiculous
thing to say, but he said it,and I'm not entirely sure if I
would not read that book again.
Would I, sort of, you know,boycott him, no, but definitely
I'm a critical reader. That'swhy I'm bringing this up, right?
But I think there's someaccountability that comes with
(04:09):
being critical reader, andespecially now we have so many
authors from underrepresentedcommunities also that are
getting a chance to publishtheir book that those reflect
our present reality much better.
And it brings me to somethingI've been wondering, you know,
the I'm really liking some ofthese books that I'm seeing from
different communities. So wejust, sort of, we just
(04:31):
interviewed the author of thiswonderful book called the Dalit
kitchens of Marathwada, whichbrought to light, you know,
recipes. It was a cookbook. Youknow, we've been interviewing
people, you know, from differentcommunities, different voices, a
queer community. And it's reallygreat that, you know, there's a
seat at the table now. So myquestion is that, you know,
(04:55):
since there's so many peoplenow, the seat at the table,
which didn't. What they didn'thave before. But do you think
it's enough? I
Michelle D'costa (05:03):
mean, actually, I have been, yeah,
because you know me, right?
Tara, I'm always, like, tryingto keep in touch with, like,
what's happening, be it literaryjournals. You know, you know my
obsession with literaryjournals, so I keep, like, a
highlight on my Instagram, alsowhere I keep looking at calls
for submissions. So, yeah, apartfrom literary journals, I think
I've also been noticing a lot ofpublishers coming out with calls
(05:25):
for submissions. And what isinteresting is they've come out
with anthologies that focus onparticular communities. You
know, I've seen that. I thinkthere was a anthology recently
just about Northeastern voices,and I thought that was pretty
cool, because as someone, youknow, especially like the time I
was introduced to Northeasternwriters, was when I went to
(05:46):
Bangalore, you know, I don'tthink there would have been any
other way I would have actuallylearned so much about
Northeastern writers had I notbeen there. So, yeah, I think so
seeing that book, and seeingseeing so many anthologies come
out these days, I do think thatpublishers are moving in the
right direction, giving morespace for diverse voices. But
are they enough? I don't thinkit's enough, because I also feel
(06:07):
like we have a lot of mainstreambooks, and if we get more
anthologies, more opportunitiesfor writers from marginalized
communities to, sort of, youknow, get into the mainstream, I
do think that will be, that'llbe more interesting, you know,
like, Who wouldn't want to hearmore diverse voices? Yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (06:25):
is it about the art, or is it about the artist?
Michelle D'costa (06:29):
I honestly think, especially, especially if
you're talking about storiesfrom marginalized communities, I
do think it's a mix of both.
It's also because identity. It'salso because these stories are
just, you know, they are. Thisis just magical. So I'll give
you an example, right? So thestories that you see coming from
the northeast, they have a lotof folklore. They have they have
a certain flavor to the storiesthat you wouldn't see, let's say
(06:53):
if they came out of any otherregion, right? Why? That's just
because it's, it's the waystories have been told in this
region for years, right? Let'ssay, like oral storytelling,
stories that have been passeddown through generations. It's
just a style. It's just so let'stake, you know, Janice Pariat,
for example, right? So if yousee her stories, there's always
there's magic, there's myth,there's a little bit of, like
(07:13):
surrealism and all of that. So,so I do think that in this case,
it's a mix of both. Because evenwhen it comes to the identities
of these writers, right, I dothink that it'll be interesting
to sort of have them in allmainstream, you know, literary
festivals, in differentprograms. I do think visibility
(07:35):
matters. So yeah, I mean, Ithanks for asking that.
Actually, I didn't think aboutthat before, um, while, I while,
I obviously love the, you know,richness and variety of stories.
I do think that the artist alsodeserves, like, more visibility.
I think
Tara Khandelwal (07:49):
that one thing is, yeah, we need a
representation of differentvoices. But I don't think it's
about art versus artists interms of this. I think all
artists are creating somethingthat is an extension of
themselves and their livedexperiences. So you know you are
talking about the northeast andhow you know they have a
culture. I am an Urban Hinduprivileged person, and my art
(08:12):
would probably reflect that.
Like I don't think you can avoidthe creation of something from
the personality and the way thatsomeone has been brought up,
because I feel there's no debateon that right, like the identity
of the artists and the work thatthey create stems from their
identity and their experiences,and whatever, you know, inputs
(08:33):
they're putting into the system,the conversations they've had,
the culture, all of that, Whatthey want to put in the question
is, what happens when an artistdoes something unsavory or and
or when? Now, what youmentioned, you know, from your
childhood books, when you rereadsomething taken out of the
(08:54):
context of its time, that doesnot sit well with the current
scenario. You know. Firstly,should those books, you know, be
published or not, you know, soshould they be reprinted? For
example, my friend was tellingme about Roald Dahl and he has a
small niece, and we all grew upreading Roald Dahl books, you
know, I love Roald Dahl books.
(09:16):
And so he basically got therepublished version of Roald
Dahl, which was cleaned up, thetwits, I don't know if you
remember the twits that book,and he had his old, old school
version, you know, which he had.
And then I was sitting with him,and I was comparing, what is the
difference? And we were justsaying, oh, you know, I we
totally understand why it's sosanitized now, but some of that
(09:37):
charm also has gone away. So Ithink that is the main question
for me that you know, when theeither the art becomes
politically incorrect or notserving us anymore, and you
know, it can be also subjective,right? Like, do I want my. It to
(09:58):
have a curse word or not in thebook is something. These are
subtler things, but there arealso objective things, like, oh,
somebody is something really badto some physically, you know, up
then you know, we going toboycott that person you know. Or
someone is saying somethingabout a community that is
really, really hurtful. Youknow, should we work or that
(10:22):
person and their art? Or shouldwe only, sort of like say, okay,
that person, we may not doanything, but we're still gonna
watch Harry Potter, for example.
I think that is something that Iwant to explore, yeah,
Michelle D'costa (10:39):
and that is something that's super
interesting, because I've beenthinking about that a lot. So
let's take the first scenario,okay, for me, especially when I
read texts that have sort of,let's say maybe they have not
aged well, sometimes, right?
Sometimes, when I'm, and this isvery subjective, it's a very
personal opinion, I might feeldifferent tomorrow, but I think
sometimes I feel that, you know,we can maybe give the author the
(11:00):
benefit of the doubt. And thereason I'm saying it is because
we are in a time and age wherewe are hyper aware. And the
reason I'm saying hyper aware isbecause, you know, we have
social media, we have all theseplatforms. We are well read, and
there's just so many avenues,right? So sometimes I do think
that probably, you know, had allof this awareness being there
back then, maybe, maybe the textwould have been different. I
(11:23):
don't know, right? Sometimes Ithink that. Sometimes I'm like,
Oh no, this just rubs me thewrong way. Read for this. I'll
give you an example. So therewas this um, book, I don't
remember the name, but I lovedthe humor, like, like, maybe
just like, four to five yearsback, you know, I love the
humor. And I'm like, Oh my gosh,this is super funny. I gotta, I
gotta, like, you know, and Ikind of like sardonic humor, so
(11:43):
it's kind of like that. Andtoday, when I reread it, I'm
like, Oh my gosh. How did I everlike that kind of humor? Because
it was kind of likecondescending, kind of like
making fun of others. And I'mlike, No, that's not right. So I
do feel that sometimes, youknow, text, even if it's
contemporary, it might not agewell, it might not sit well with
you. I think for me, inespecially like, you know, in
(12:08):
the past year, I've beenthinking a lot about this,
because, you know, we keephearing about, you know, let's
say writers doing this, writersdoing that, so many things. And
you must have heard of AliceMonroe, and you know, after her
death, her daughter came outwith this explosive letter, and
everyone you know found outabout what happened. So I don't
think that what happens though,especially like for me, it
(12:29):
shatters the image of the authorthat I had in my mind, you know.
And I'm sure it happens too,especially if you're a fan of
that author. So I think for me,the struggle more is like, Can
I, can I really separate theauthor from the work, right? And
this could even be, this could,let's say, even if it's a movie,
let's say tomorrow I find outsomething about a director or
something about a producer or anactor and all of that, right?
(12:52):
Like, because I'm a person wholoves art and loves cinema so
much, sometimes it becomes sodifficult to sort of, you know,
like, like, I honestly, if youask me, I find the words boycott
or, like, ban and stuff a littletoo extreme, right? It is just,
it's just the way I think,because I feel every, every
piece of art should beappreciated, but sometimes it
(13:12):
becomes really difficult. Idon't know. Do you have the same
struggle? Is it the same withyou or, or is it sort of like
crystal clear, like, if you knowsomething about someone, you
just, it's just gonna changeyour opinion about them.
Tara Khandelwal (13:27):
It's not crystal clear at all. You know,
when you said, like, you knowcertain things like are in the
context, it made me think ofKarina Kapoor and her size zero
phenomenon. I was talking aboutthis in another interview
earlier, and because when wewere growing up, she was all
about the size zero, and she waspromoting that there was this
movie Tashan, and where she was,you know, like size zero. And
(13:50):
what does that do to like bodyimage? And now in her
interviews, she mentioned thatshe's like, See, I didn't have
that context. Then, you know,now I am like, if you see her,
she's all about body positivity.
She roams around without makeup,and she says that, you know,
that was a product of her time,like she is very much a product
of her time, and that movie is,like, very much a product of our
(14:10):
time. So I think seeing thingsin that, in that way, I think
that, you know, I kind of giveit a leeway, you know, because
they are products of theconditioning, and they are
accepting and evolving with thetimes as well, right? So, so
where I, where I find it verydifficult to separate,
(14:31):
obviously, is, as I mentionedbefore, if the artist has done
something really, reallyterrible. So, for example, you
know, Kiran Nagarkar, me too.
Case there was stuff coming outabout him. I had just finished
reading his book, jasoda, and Ireally like his writing, by the
way, and he passed away like notsoon after. But yeah, I mean, I
(14:56):
don't, not sure if I would readthat book again or not knowing.
So you know what I do? Thatbeing said, I love Harry Potter,
and I would watch the movies,and I would read the books
again, because for me, they'retheir own world. The question
is, would I? Would I go back toold work? Right? Maybe I would
(15:18):
go back to old work, like kirannagarkar's previous books,
because there was a whole teamalso behind that. There was
editors or the people involved,you know, and it already exists
as its own thing out there,which is a life of its own
right. Would I read new work? Ithink for me, that's that
(15:39):
question, right? And maybe Iwouldn't pick up new work and
endorse new work if the artistis someone that I really, really
whose values I don't align with.
So the I think that is a verystraight, you know, black and
white answer for me. But when itcomes to old work, I don't think
you can be black and whitebecause it is nuanced in itself,
(16:01):
because there's more people, andone person, at least in movies,
who like make those thingshappen.
Michelle D'costa (16:10):
Yeah, I do agree with you on that. And I
think just as you right, like,as you said, it's a very, I
think, personal thing, even forme, right? So sometimes I'm okay
with with, let's say, reading abook, but if I know that the
person has done somethingterrible. So I recently read
this news about this very famousauthor, about the very, very
nasty things he has done towomen and and as you said, I
(16:33):
think, I think what you saidabout reading old work versus
new work is something that Ithink will apply to me, because
what's already out there, youcan't do anything right about
it. It's already there and youhave consumed it in some way or
another. You might have likedit. It's just some, some of them
are your favorites, right? Soit's really tough to detach
yourself, but I totally agreethat, let's say now you've
(16:54):
decided, okay, I'm not gonna,I'm not gonna consume any of
this author's work. Now on Ithink that's, I think that's
sort of a fair, fair thing, butI do believe, I don't know it's
a little tricky, but, like, it'snot just the work, right? So
let's say, would you boycott theperson as is, right? So right
now, right now, like, let's say,when we discuss art versus
artists, it's not just the artthey create, it's the person as
(17:16):
a whole, right? So let's say theperson's on Twitter, speaking.
Let's say the person's onInstagram, posting updates on
their life, right? Do you thinkit's sort of okay to like, even
boycott the author or like as aperson, but let's say not the
work?
Tara Khandelwal (17:32):
No, I think that I'm against cancel culture,
especially like for things thatwere in the context of a so I
will not cancel Kareena Kapoorbecause she was talking about
size zero. I would not cancelfriends. I would not cancel.
Roald Dahl, right? Would I wouldcancel people who have
physically harmed another personand are still trying to, you
(17:54):
know, think and think that isokay, and think that they coming
back like the me too, right?
Like they have physically harmedsomeone, and they are coming
back to sort of, you know, actlike it's okay. The system is
geared towards that. So it's notlike I want to boycott or cancel
anyone. I will not endorse themfurther. Their art exists. I've
consumed it, and I'm okay withthat. I think another question
(18:15):
is that, in terms of separatingthe art and the artist, is the
question of something called,never meet your heroes, right?
The art, the person who'screating the art is is informed
by the life choices, butultimately, the art takes on a
life of its own. And if you readsomething and you're like, Oh my
(18:37):
God, this resonates so much withme and my values and things like
that. And then you meet theperson, like, for example, like
Harry Potter, like I love yourstory and everything and the
values and all of that, right?
And if you meet the artist, andyou expect that artist to be
like the magical world they'vecreated, or it's like, if you
(18:58):
meet a comedian and you expectthem to be the funniest person
every line you know that doesn'thappen. So I think that, you
know, I really believe in notmeeting your heroes sometimes,
because you will bedisappointed, you know, so or
you will. You may or may not bedisappointed, but you should not
put anyone on a pedestal justbecause you've created a work of
(19:20):
art that you really, reallylike, and you really love,
really love, and the book isconnected to you. You are
relating to the work. You're notrelating to the person. You
don't know if you will relate tothe person until you actually
meet
Michelle D'costa (19:32):
them. That that actually reminded me of a
very vivid scene from Fault inOur Stars. I don't know if
you've seen it. Tara, so it'sthe movies based on the book and
all of that. So there's a veryinteresting scene in that where
the girl meets her favoriteauthor, and she's so
disappointed, because shethought he would be this really
nice, caring, calm person, allof that. And it turns out to be
(19:53):
the most like, I don't know,rude, grumpy, like, person that
that she's met. And it just itshatters her. And I. Image,
Tara Khandelwal (20:01):
yeah. So I think, I
Michelle D'costa (20:03):
do think that, you know, that's, that's
something, but I also feelthat's a little tricky, it's a
little difficult, that,especially, especially now that,
you know, we've developed thisculture of, I mean, it's not
just fans who, like, you know,wait for us in line. It's, it's
also this, I think theboundaries have blurred, because
now we have access to, you know,all the people we love, right on
Instagram, especially in ourinfluencer culture, sort of
(20:28):
model where, you know, there'scontact with people, there's
contact with like, you know,contact with fans. Like the
whole, the whole idea of, let'ssay, you know, why are books
doing so well? Like, you know,especially books written by,
let's say influencers,celebrities, so many, so many
books are selling. Why? I alsothink it's because there's
contact with with fans. So it'sa little bit tricky. But I think
never with your heroes is alittle bit a little bit
(20:49):
difficult here. But I do agreethat that's one way of
separating, you, know, yourself,yourself from the author. Yeah.
Tara Khandelwal (20:55):
So at the retreat, we are the writers
retreat. We had recently we werehaving a very interesting debate
that I want to bring up here.
Also, the mentors were the sameTashan Mehta, and Chandrahas
Choudhury, and we were talkingabout fan fiction. And we were
talking about how, you know,everybody knows what fan fiction
is, is that you know, you're afan of the work, and you want to
be in that world a littlelonger, and then you like, take,
(21:16):
you know, characters, and youmake parallel stories about
them. Then we would, then wewere discussing between them,
you know, like, Would you reallylike it, or would you not? And
it was very interesting, becausethey both had different views.
One of them said, No, you knowwhat? Like, I don't want my work
to, like, be fan fiction, mywork exercises, you know, I
don't want, you know, I'm verysing. And then one of them was
(21:39):
like, now my work is out there,and I every fan fiction is like
a love letter to me, becausepeople enjoyed the work so much,
you know. So that was also veryinteresting in terms of, like,
putting into the context of theart versus artists debate that
the art definitely has a life ofits own, and the work definitely
has a life of its own. That'swhy the artists are creating.
(22:04):
What they're creating is becausethey wanted to live on after and
a great example, another greatexample of works that live on
and are disconnected from theartist is John Keats and Vincent
van Gogh and all these kind ofpeople who never saw any success
in their lives. They barely soldany paintings. John keats died
(22:24):
at 25 he did not know that hewas going to be such a
successful poet. And theyactually got fame, you know,
posthumously. So they don't evenknow, you know, how big they are
right now and how much theirvalue is. And I find that so
fascinating and also so sad, youknow? Because, yeah, I mean, you
creating so much, and you wantthat validation, but you're not
(22:49):
getting it, but the work willlive on forever and ever. Yeah,
Michelle D'costa (22:54):
and I think two things come to mind here.
Just imagine a world Tara, wherewe don't publish our works under
our name. I'm just thinking,let's say, let's say everyone
has a pseudonym. Let's say,let's say the publishing world
is like, we only publish you ifyou have a pseudonym, for
example. Just think of this, youknow, dystopian or utopian
world, whatever it might be. Howwould we ever know the identity?
(23:15):
Right? Like, let's just, let'ssay, example, Elena Ferrante,
right? I love her work. Youknow, people love her books,
Neapolitan novels, all of that,but nobody knows who she is,
right? We don't know who she isas a person. Just, just saying,
right? So what if, let's say,what if, just a hypothetical
situation, we find out tomorrow,and we don't like certain things
about her, what's going tohappen? Right? It might, it
(23:37):
might crash her entire work. Orit might just, I don't know,
like people might be morecurious to write a work I don't
know, the
Tara Khandelwal (23:45):
art versus artist debate actually also
makes me think of AI, because ifit's not about the artist and
it's just about the art, right?
I mean, I was playing aroundwith AI yesterday, and AI can do
amazing things, I have promptedit to write a full screenplay.
It didn't write it, but it, youknow, with its help, I could
turn out a pretty goodscreenplay with characters, and
(24:08):
it won't be jumpa re, it's notgoing to be Amitabh, but it's
going to be average. And I oftenwonder about that versus artist
thing when it comes to AI,because I think that's a very
relevant topic. You know, we sawthe whole Studio Ghibli, you
know, thing, where they tookthat image, and everybody was
creating its own thing. And whathappens to the artist in that
(24:30):
context, and is the way weconsume art going to change? Is
it not going to be about theartist at all, but just about
the work itself, and if the workis amazing, if AI created
another Harry Potter which wasjust amazing and gave so much
joy to people, would I mind ifit was created by AI, if it was
(24:52):
that good? Yeah,
Michelle D'costa (24:55):
that's very interesting, food for thought, I
think. And I think that's whenthat. Really, really highlights
or focuses the fact that, let'ssay anything done by a person,
right? It could be a smallsculpture, it could be a book,
it could be a huge monument,right? I think Humans inherently
are flawed. Unlike AI. Ofcourse, we'll come to AI, but I
think unlike AI, Humansinherently are flawed. So I do
(25:17):
feel like sort of, you know,giving, giving people the
benefit of doubt, or givingpeople a little bit, a little
bit of that leeway is important,because I'm not, I'm not here.
I'm not defending any, anyperson who is evil, who is
criminal. I'm not sayinganything like that, you know.
But I do think that artists workreally, really hard on their
(25:39):
work. It takes, sometimes ittakes years and years to create
something, right? And I don'tknow, AI, and how long did it
take for AI to write thescreenplay? By the way, it
didn't write
Tara Khandelwal (25:47):
the screenplay, but it did manage to write a
little bit of one episode, notwith its instant Exactly.
Michelle D'costa (25:53):
So AI, I think it would just hardly take, like,
half an hour or something tocreate something like that. But,
yeah, I think, I think then wewould just lose the whole
debate. But what I also thinkis, especially with the model of
AI we have right now, what I'veheard is AI is it just doesn't
create something from scratch.
It takes, obviously, it takesfrom whatever it has out there.
So whatever it has out there isinherently human, and it has all
the influences. It haseverything mixed up. So I think
(26:16):
what will happen here is it willbe very difficult to pinpoint.
It will very difficult to say,oh, but where did this come
from?
Tara Khandelwal (26:23):
If AI creates something that is so amazing,
it's so fun to eat, like, say,in five years, AI gets so good,
yeah, that it just creates apiece of art that is so
involving. Would you care ifit's created by AI, or would you
want because the art is amazingand the book is so amazing, or
whatever the movie is so great.
Would you be, like, it doesn'tmatter.
Michelle D'costa (26:46):
Wait, no, sorry, I'm very confused. What
do you mean? So AI is creating,if AI created the
Tara Khandelwal (26:51):
next Harry Potter, would you mind that it
was created by AI? I get
Michelle D'costa (26:57):
what you're saying. I don't know. Like, I
think, I think because AI isstill, is still in a nascent
stage, okay, still, we're stillsort of, we don't know what AI
is really capable of. So I dothink that, I do think it will
be really interesting to seeeven the way AI evolves, right?
And we all evolve as artists,right? We also, like, I mean, we
start out writing crap, we startout, and then, you know, our
(27:20):
later works become, you know,much better. I do think that
even with AI, we will, we willsort of be patient with AI. We
will be sort of, you know, we'llgive it the benefit of doubt. I
do think that the initial, sortof, you know, drafts might not
be great. Well, my
Tara Khandelwal (27:33):
question about that, my question is very
simple, okay, in five years, AIis amazing. AI is fantastic,
right? AI can create a book thatis amazing.
Michelle D'costa (27:47):
Let's say as good as, let's say as good as
Harry Potter, for as good
Tara Khandelwal (27:50):
as the best of the best. And a new, unique
concept, perfect, as perfect asyou can get fun to read
interesting. Would you care thatit's made by AI, or would you
read it and participate in itanyway?
Michelle D'costa (28:08):
I would, yeah, that's, I mean, the main reason
is because I love art. Like Isaid, I love art. I love I mean,
yes, I do, you know, justbecause, I mean, honestly, just
because I'm a writer, I havethis obsession of looking at
writers bios and blurbs before Iread a book, right? But let's
say I separate that identity. Iseparate the identity of a
writer. I will consume the workirrespective of of, let's say
(28:31):
who's written. Because I justwant to enjoy. I want to enjoy.
I want to read the good story.
Yeah, definitely. I shouldn't
Tara Khandelwal (28:37):
wait. Shouldn't bother me, not give I mean, if
we want to protect the sanctityof artists, shouldn't we not be
promoting AI as creations? Imean, something to prevent that.
Or can we? You know, that is myquestion. AI is the greatest
representation of art, havingits own life devoid of the
(29:00):
artist. So I think, sort oflike, it's very interesting to
see what happens, because Ithink this debate is even more
relevant now, because of AI,because, you know, the creators
who actually sort of likecreating things and things like
that, I wonder if, as a as ahuman population, we are moving
(29:23):
towards that space where itdoesn't matter who's created
what, and, you know, if it'sgood, it'll have a life. I think
only time will tell. Yeah,
Michelle D'costa (29:33):
totally. I think, I think if it's AI, and
it's not something that I wantto promote, but I do think
there's some things thatinevitable, especially when it
comes to technology. You know,being a 90s kid, I've seen like,
I've used the Walkman, and nowwe are in a completely different
generation. So I do think thatAI will just spiral. And just
like any any other technology,we have different versions of
it, right? But I am, I am allfor, like, freedom of speech,
(29:55):
and that includes AI, okay, but,but as a writer, honestly, as a
writer, I do believe. That youridentity is a very big part of
your writing. And I'm sayingthat from experience, because,
let's say, right? You've read mywork, you know, I always, almost
always, write about migration,right? And why? That's because I
felt it very deeply. That'sbecause I have been a migrant
for most of my life, and it'snot something I set out to
(30:16):
write, right? You don't decideone day, oh, I'm going to write
about migration? No, it just, itjust subconsciously comes to
you. It comes to your writing,and I think that's, that's
beautiful. I think it's you,right? Let's say now, for
example, you there might becertain themes, there might be
certain things that you feelstrongly about, you know. So
when you write, it's going tocome out. So I do fear as a
writer, that I could protectthat space. I could be like,
(30:36):
okay, just it. Could just be us,you know, artists, but we are
also flawed. I feel humans alsoflawed. So when it comes to
humans writing, it, it's verytough to separate both the art
and artist 100% and there are somany things that are going to
come up. Um, I think in somecases, some writers are just
recluses. Some we don't evenknow what's happening in their
life. And some people are just,let's say they're out there,
(30:57):
right? And we get to know a lotof information about them. So
it's a bit tricky, but I dothink that if AI comes up with
anything that's like, fabulous,I am gonna, I am gonna consume
it. Why not? Like,
Tara Khandelwal (31:09):
I think, I think my point you're trying to
make is you're one on the onehand, you're a creator. On the
one hand, you're a consumer. Asa creator, yeah, as a as a
Michelle D'costa (31:19):
creator, I want to be biased, right? So the
Creator, I want to feel like,okay, no, but you know, artists
have their identity that, andthat's, you know, it's
beautiful, like it comes outthrough their writing orders,
and that's what creates the art,right? But on the other hand, as
a consumer, if AI, let's say,creates something fabulous, I
would love to, I would love toconsume that. Yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (31:37):
I don't know if I wouldn't consume something so
fabulous, you know. But I thinkin the future, what I see myself
doing is definitely promotingartists more and more and more
as AI becomes, you know, betterand better at what it does, and
we don't know, and this is justit, just purely hypothetical. I
have no idea what AI is going todo. I have no idea what it's
(31:57):
capable of, and no idea what thelaws are going to be and how
this whole thing is going toevolve. This was just a fun
hypothetical thing, but I dobelieve in promoting artists a
lot, and you know, because it'svery special thing, and they
give us a lot of joy, and thisis what we do in our free time.
What do we do? We consume music,we watch movies, we go to art
(32:21):
galleries, we read books, right?
These are all things that arebeing created right now, at
least by somebody. So I thinkit's important to promote, and I
also think it's important tolook be critical when there's
something going wrong without,actually, you know, going ahead
and having a unilateraldecision, which is, okay, I'm
going to cancel a boy callsomeone, because that is very
(32:42):
extreme, unless there is anextreme circumstance. So that is
sort of my conclusion, if I hadto wrap this thing in a bowl,
yeah.
Michelle D'costa (32:50):
And I think this also made me think about
something Tara, because I'mcurrently doing my MA in
creative writing, which isliterally about writing. So I
was just thinking, if AI, if AI,takes over, we might not have
these programs anymore, but onthe other hand, we might even
need it even more, because then,as you said, right, you want to
promote more artists. I think atthat point we will be so
protective of individuality, soprotective of of, let's say,
(33:13):
like human thought, for example,that I think, I think people
will crave for, for, uh, contentwritten by, written by writers
like I know, I know that it'snever going to discourage me,
but I can only say that aboutmyself, right? I'm not talking
about the industry or publishersor what content is going to come
out. But let's say, even thoughI know if AI can write 10 times
better than me, I'm still goingto write because that's all I
(33:34):
know. You know, that's somethingthat brings me joy. I don't know
if anyone's going to read it,but yeah, I
Tara Khandelwal (33:40):
actually feel like, while AI might like, get
to, like, the general, thedemand for excellence will it'll
raise the bar. And, you know,like, I think there'll be even
better writers out there,because it'll sort of like, you
know, raise a bar, and therewill be even more need for MFA
programs and things like that.
Because at the end of the Ithink my question also about,
(34:01):
would you, would you watchsomething that's so fabulous
with creative and AI, it comesunder trust. The one thing that
AI cannot do, right though itcan, pretty much in like a
future, everything. But can Itrust it the way, I know an
integrity. If an artist hasintegrity and has created
(34:22):
something with, you know, theirfull imagination and put their
soul, I'm not talking about theartist values and talking about
the process of creation. I trustthat that story is really
original, that it's come from aspecial place. And I know that,
you know that that thing issomething that we cherished, but
(34:43):
the AI feel like there's thatelement of human trust and human
emotion which makes it lessspecial, even though the work
might be amazing for me. Yeah,and I
Michelle D'costa (34:55):
think, I think that really sort of reminds me,
like, why? I really enjoyinginterview, you know, authors,
like we were discussing theother day, right? What is it
about BNB, what is it aboutbooks and women that we love?
Like I was just thinking, right?
Tata, if something's written byAI, who will you like? What?
What would you ask process, forexample, right? So I think the
reason I really started likeenjoying interviewing writers is
(35:18):
because I realized no twowriters are the same. Everybody
has a different approach, right?
And on the podcast, we haveinterviewed writers in different
genres, but sometimes it's thesame genre. For example, let's
say we are interviewing crimewriters, right? But it's a very
different genre of crime. It's avery different approach,
different style. So, yeah, Ithink, I think there's so much
(35:39):
beauty in each each individualauthors process. Imagine I was
like, interviewing, AI, I don'tknow, but yeah, I do. I do think
that that the fact that we haveinterviews, the fact that there
are literature festivals, thefact that there is, there are
opportunities for us to evenengage with people in US India
process is because of that youknow, like, we never know,
(36:01):
right? You never know, like,what's going on in our mind? I
think, I think, I think our mindis, like, the most mysterious
thing ever. So, yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (36:08):
yeah. I mean, what makes us and, you know, how
does our like, how does it alllike, come together? So I think,
I think that's a great note toend this conversation. Because,
you know, yeah, we're doing thisbecause we want to get inside
the minds of these authors whoare creating these amazing
works, and the season is goingto be more power packed and as
power packed as our previousseasons, I think we've only
(36:29):
gotten you know better enjoyingit more than ever. So hope that
everyone who listens in lovesthe season as much as we have
recording it, and we have someamazing authors coming up. Yeah,
Michelle D'costa (36:41):
totally can't.
Just can't wait for the episode.
Super, super excited. Okay,
Tara Khandelwal (36:45):
Michelle, thanks. I think this was a very
interesting discussion. Lot offood for hot. I know it's quite
late there in New Zealand, soyes, let's maybe, yeah, we keep
connect again and have one ofthese long, winding chats. But
yeah, good night.
Michelle D'costa (37:03):
Fear. Bye.
Tara Khandelwal (37:06):
Hope you enjoy this episode of Books and Beyond
Michelle D'costa (37:09):
with bound.
This podcast is created bybound, a company that helps you
grow through stories. Find us atbound India on all social media
platforms.
Tara Khandelwal (37:18):
Tune in every Wednesday as we peek into the
lives and minds of somebrilliant authors from India and
South Asia, you.
Welcome to Books and Beyond. With bound I
am Tara Khandelwal and I amMichelle D'Costa, in this
podcast, we talk to India'sfinest authors and uncover the
stories behind the best writtenbook and dissect how these books
shape our lives and world viewstoday. So let's dive in. So how
(00:23):
are you, Michelle, how's NewZealand going?
Michelle D'costa (00:25):
Hey, it's going good. I'm having fun. And
I think in the past nine months,I've seen three seasons. I came
I landed here in like, peakwinter. There was summer, and
now it's autumn, so it rainsjust any time of the day, so I
don't know when to carry myumbrella and when not to but
(00:47):
otherwise, it's going good. I'mworking on my second novel, and
it's sort of like it's verychallenging, because I've
reached that stage where I'msort of not just writing the
first draft, but also, likepolishing it. So it's no it's
very stressful, but it's alsofun. What about you? What's
going on with you? It's been solong since we met? Yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (01:07):
I know like we usually talk only about work and
things. So these podcasts are agood way to also catch up that
what's going on with me? Nothingmuch. I think it's just sort of
like mango season and summer,and I'm just very excited about
this new season, because we havequite a few, you know,
interesting authors and, yeah,things at bound are really
(01:30):
chaotic, as you know, but reallygood. So let's talk about like,
speaking of chaos, you know,let's get into today's topic. So
the question we're going to beanswering today is, can you
separate the art from theartists? Yeah, I mean,
Michelle D'costa (01:44):
I remember, you know, I was discussing this
in like, one form or anotherwhile we used to have our lunch
breaks in the office. And it's,I think it's sort of
interesting, because, see, forme, honestly, this is something
I didn't think about growing up,you know, and you know, like,
for me, like I studied in a CBSEsyllabus. And, you know, just
like in any curriculum, what weare always given, like, a
(02:07):
certain text, a certain, youknow, textbooks to read. And
obviously, you know, as a kid,you don't know much, and of
course, like, I loved thestories that I grew up with,
like, you know, they literally,like made me imagine. They made
me sort of think they made mewant to read. They made me want
to write. It was so much fun.
But also, now that I've grownup, and I sort of, you know,
look back and I rereadsomething, right? This happened
(02:29):
to me the other day wheresomeone was just, you know, in
New Zealand, asking me, What didyou study in India? What was the
sort of curriculum you had? Andthen when we had this
discussion, and when I mentionedcertain writers, I realized
that, oh, like, okay, you knowthat some of their works might
not go down that well,especially, especially in
today's day and age and and Isort of realized that, yes,
like, you know, like, we all arehumans, right? We all are we all
(02:51):
are people. We're people withdifferent personalities,
different thoughts, all of that.
And that really made me startthinking about the art versus
artist. I don't know what aboutyou? Have you always been
thinking about this?
Tara Khandelwal (03:04):
So I think the bigger question of someone's
work was such a big part of yourchildhood, and you realize their
values don't align with yourslater on, do you still read
their books, or do you just moveon? And yeah, I think the answer
is tricky, because the work isdefinitely part of your memory,
right? It's part of who you werewhen you first read it. And I
don't think we need to throwthat all away, but I do think we
(03:26):
need to read it a bitdifferently right now, with a
little more awareness. Forexample, I recently picked up
train to Pakistan again. And,you know, I really love
partition novels. I did mythesis on the partition as well,
and it's a brilliant novel, andwhen you read it, there's a when
you read his writing today,there's a lot that feels dated,
you know, because I remember he,I once read that. He said
(03:48):
feminism is a Western import.
Indian women don't need it, youknow, which is a ridiculous
thing to say, but he said it,and I'm not entirely sure if I
would not read that book again.
Would I, sort of, you know,boycott him, no, but definitely
I'm a critical reader. That'swhy I'm bringing this up, right?
But I think there's someaccountability that comes with
(04:09):
being critical reader, andespecially now we have so many
authors from underrepresentedcommunities also that are
getting a chance to publishtheir book that those reflect
our present reality much better.
And it brings me to somethingI've been wondering, you know,
the I'm really liking some ofthese books that I'm seeing from
different communities. So wejust, sort of, we just
(04:31):
interviewed the author of thiswonderful book called the Dalit
kitchens of Marathwada, whichbrought to light, you know,
recipes. It was a cookbook. Youknow, we've been interviewing
people, you know, from differentcommunities, different voices, a
queer community. And it's reallygreat that, you know, there's a
seat at the table now. So myquestion is that, you know,
(04:55):
since there's so many peoplenow, the seat at the table,
which didn't. What they didn'thave before. But do you think
it's enough? I
Michelle D'costa (05:03):
mean, actually, I have been, yeah,
because you know me, right?
Tara, I'm always, like, tryingto keep in touch with, like,
what's happening, be it literaryjournals. You know, you know my
obsession with literaryjournals, so I keep, like, a
highlight on my Instagram, alsowhere I keep looking at calls
for submissions. So, yeah, apartfrom literary journals, I think
I've also been noticing a lot ofpublishers coming out with calls
(05:25):
for submissions. And what isinteresting is they've come out
with anthologies that focus onparticular communities. You
know, I've seen that. I thinkthere was a anthology recently
just about Northeastern voices,and I thought that was pretty
cool, because as someone, youknow, especially like the time I
was introduced to Northeasternwriters, was when I went to
(05:46):
Bangalore, you know, I don'tthink there would have been any
other way I would have actuallylearned so much about
Northeastern writers had I notbeen there. So, yeah, I think so
seeing that book, and seeingseeing so many anthologies come
out these days, I do think thatpublishers are moving in the
right direction, giving morespace for diverse voices. But
are they enough? I don't thinkit's enough, because I also feel
(06:07):
like we have a lot of mainstreambooks, and if we get more
anthologies, more opportunitiesfor writers from marginalized
communities to, sort of, youknow, get into the mainstream, I
do think that will be, that'llbe more interesting, you know,
like, Who wouldn't want to hearmore diverse voices? Yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (06:25):
is it about the art, or is it about the artist?
Michelle D'costa (06:29):
I honestly think, especially, especially if
you're talking about storiesfrom marginalized communities, I
do think it's a mix of both.
It's also because identity. It'salso because these stories are
just, you know, they are. Thisis just magical. So I'll give
you an example, right? So thestories that you see coming from
the northeast, they have a lotof folklore. They have they have
a certain flavor to the storiesthat you wouldn't see, let's say
(06:53):
if they came out of any otherregion, right? Why? That's just
because it's, it's the waystories have been told in this
region for years, right? Let'ssay, like oral storytelling,
stories that have been passeddown through generations. It's
just a style. It's just so let'stake, you know, Janice Pariat,
for example, right? So if yousee her stories, there's always
there's magic, there's myth,there's a little bit of, like
(07:13):
surrealism and all of that. So,so I do think that in this case,
it's a mix of both. Because evenwhen it comes to the identities
of these writers, right, I dothink that it'll be interesting
to sort of have them in allmainstream, you know, literary
festivals, in differentprograms. I do think visibility
(07:35):
matters. So yeah, I mean, Ithanks for asking that.
Actually, I didn't think aboutthat before, um, while, I while,
I obviously love the, you know,richness and variety of stories.
I do think that the artist alsodeserves, like, more visibility.
I think
Tara Khandelwal (07:49):
that one thing is, yeah, we need a
representation of differentvoices. But I don't think it's
about art versus artists interms of this. I think all
artists are creating somethingthat is an extension of
themselves and their livedexperiences. So you know you are
talking about the northeast andhow you know they have a
culture. I am an Urban Hinduprivileged person, and my art
(08:12):
would probably reflect that.
Like I don't think you can avoidthe creation of something from
the personality and the way thatsomeone has been brought up,
because I feel there's no debateon that right, like the identity
of the artists and the work thatthey create stems from their
identity and their experiences,and whatever, you know, inputs
(08:33):
they're putting into the system,the conversations they've had,
the culture, all of that, Whatthey want to put in the question
is, what happens when an artistdoes something unsavory or and
or when? Now, what youmentioned, you know, from your
childhood books, when you rereadsomething taken out of the
(08:54):
context of its time, that doesnot sit well with the current
scenario. You know. Firstly,should those books, you know, be
published or not, you know, soshould they be reprinted? For
example, my friend was tellingme about Roald Dahl and he has a
small niece, and we all grew upreading Roald Dahl books, you
know, I love Roald Dahl books.
(09:16):
And so he basically got therepublished version of Roald
Dahl, which was cleaned up, thetwits, I don't know if you
remember the twits that book,and he had his old, old school
version, you know, which he had.
And then I was sitting with him,and I was comparing, what is the
difference? And we were justsaying, oh, you know, I we
totally understand why it's sosanitized now, but some of that
(09:37):
charm also has gone away. So Ithink that is the main question
for me that you know, when theeither the art becomes
politically incorrect or notserving us anymore, and you
know, it can be also subjective,right? Like, do I want my. It to
(09:58):
have a curse word or not in thebook is something. These are
subtler things, but there arealso objective things, like, oh,
somebody is something really badto some physically, you know, up
then you know, we going toboycott that person you know. Or
someone is saying somethingabout a community that is
really, really hurtful. Youknow, should we work or that
(10:22):
person and their art? Or shouldwe only, sort of like say, okay,
that person, we may not doanything, but we're still gonna
watch Harry Potter, for example.
I think that is something that Iwant to explore, yeah,
Michelle D'costa (10:39):
and that is something that's super
interesting, because I've beenthinking about that a lot. So
let's take the first scenario,okay, for me, especially when I
read texts that have sort of,let's say maybe they have not
aged well, sometimes, right?
Sometimes, when I'm, and this isvery subjective, it's a very
personal opinion, I might feeldifferent tomorrow, but I think
sometimes I feel that, you know,we can maybe give the author the
(11:00):
benefit of the doubt. And thereason I'm saying it is because
we are in a time and age wherewe are hyper aware. And the
reason I'm saying hyper aware isbecause, you know, we have
social media, we have all theseplatforms. We are well read, and
there's just so many avenues,right? So sometimes I do think
that probably, you know, had allof this awareness being there
back then, maybe, maybe the textwould have been different. I
(11:23):
don't know, right? Sometimes Ithink that. Sometimes I'm like,
Oh no, this just rubs me thewrong way. Read for this. I'll
give you an example. So therewas this um, book, I don't
remember the name, but I lovedthe humor, like, like, maybe
just like, four to five yearsback, you know, I love the
humor. And I'm like, Oh my gosh,this is super funny. I gotta, I
gotta, like, you know, and Ikind of like sardonic humor, so
(11:43):
it's kind of like that. Andtoday, when I reread it, I'm
like, Oh my gosh. How did I everlike that kind of humor? Because
it was kind of likecondescending, kind of like
making fun of others. And I'mlike, No, that's not right. So I
do feel that sometimes, youknow, text, even if it's
contemporary, it might not agewell, it might not sit well with
you. I think for me, inespecially like, you know, in
(12:08):
the past year, I've beenthinking a lot about this,
because, you know, we keephearing about, you know, let's
say writers doing this, writersdoing that, so many things. And
you must have heard of AliceMonroe, and you know, after her
death, her daughter came outwith this explosive letter, and
everyone you know found outabout what happened. So I don't
think that what happens though,especially like for me, it
(12:29):
shatters the image of the authorthat I had in my mind, you know.
And I'm sure it happens too,especially if you're a fan of
that author. So I think for me,the struggle more is like, Can
I, can I really separate theauthor from the work, right? And
this could even be, this could,let's say, even if it's a movie,
let's say tomorrow I find outsomething about a director or
something about a producer or anactor and all of that, right?
(12:52):
Like, because I'm a person wholoves art and loves cinema so
much, sometimes it becomes sodifficult to sort of, you know,
like, like, I honestly, if youask me, I find the words boycott
or, like, ban and stuff a littletoo extreme, right? It is just,
it's just the way I think,because I feel every, every
piece of art should beappreciated, but sometimes it
(13:12):
becomes really difficult. Idon't know. Do you have the same
struggle? Is it the same withyou or, or is it sort of like
crystal clear, like, if you knowsomething about someone, you
just, it's just gonna changeyour opinion about them.
Tara Khandelwal (13:27):
It's not crystal clear at all. You know,
when you said, like, you knowcertain things like are in the
context, it made me think ofKarina Kapoor and her size zero
phenomenon. I was talking aboutthis in another interview
earlier, and because when wewere growing up, she was all
about the size zero, and she waspromoting that there was this
movie Tashan, and where she was,you know, like size zero. And
(13:50):
what does that do to like bodyimage? And now in her
interviews, she mentioned thatshe's like, See, I didn't have
that context. Then, you know,now I am like, if you see her,
she's all about body positivity.
She roams around without makeup,and she says that, you know,
that was a product of her time,like she is very much a product
of her time, and that movie is,like, very much a product of our
(14:10):
time. So I think seeing thingsin that, in that way, I think
that, you know, I kind of giveit a leeway, you know, because
they are products of theconditioning, and they are
accepting and evolving with thetimes as well, right? So, so
where I, where I find it verydifficult to separate,
(14:31):
obviously, is, as I mentionedbefore, if the artist has done
something really, reallyterrible. So, for example, you
know, Kiran Nagarkar, me too.
Case there was stuff coming outabout him. I had just finished
reading his book, jasoda, and Ireally like his writing, by the
way, and he passed away like notsoon after. But yeah, I mean, I
(14:56):
don't, not sure if I would readthat book again or not knowing.
So you know what I do? Thatbeing said, I love Harry Potter,
and I would watch the movies,and I would read the books
again, because for me, they'retheir own world. The question
is, would I? Would I go back toold work? Right? Maybe I would
(15:18):
go back to old work, like kirannagarkar's previous books,
because there was a whole teamalso behind that. There was
editors or the people involved,you know, and it already exists
as its own thing out there,which is a life of its own
right. Would I read new work? Ithink for me, that's that
(15:39):
question, right? And maybe Iwouldn't pick up new work and
endorse new work if the artistis someone that I really, really
whose values I don't align with.
So the I think that is a verystraight, you know, black and
white answer for me. But when itcomes to old work, I don't think
you can be black and whitebecause it is nuanced in itself,
(16:01):
because there's more people, andone person, at least in movies,
who like make those thingshappen.
Michelle D'costa (16:10):
Yeah, I do agree with you on that. And I
think just as you right, like,as you said, it's a very, I
think, personal thing, even forme, right? So sometimes I'm okay
with with, let's say, reading abook, but if I know that the
person has done somethingterrible. So I recently read
this news about this very famousauthor, about the very, very
nasty things he has done towomen and and as you said, I
(16:33):
think, I think what you saidabout reading old work versus
new work is something that Ithink will apply to me, because
what's already out there, youcan't do anything right about
it. It's already there and youhave consumed it in some way or
another. You might have likedit. It's just some, some of them
are your favorites, right? Soit's really tough to detach
yourself, but I totally agreethat, let's say now you've
(16:54):
decided, okay, I'm not gonna,I'm not gonna consume any of
this author's work. Now on Ithink that's, I think that's
sort of a fair, fair thing, butI do believe, I don't know it's
a little tricky, but, like, it'snot just the work, right? So
let's say, would you boycott theperson as is, right? So right
now, right now, like, let's say,when we discuss art versus
artists, it's not just the artthey create, it's the person as
(17:16):
a whole, right? So let's say theperson's on Twitter, speaking.
Let's say the person's onInstagram, posting updates on
their life, right? Do you thinkit's sort of okay to like, even
boycott the author or like as aperson, but let's say not the
work?
Tara Khandelwal (17:32):
No, I think that I'm against cancel culture,
especially like for things thatwere in the context of a so I
will not cancel Kareena Kapoorbecause she was talking about
size zero. I would not cancelfriends. I would not cancel.
Roald Dahl, right? Would I wouldcancel people who have
physically harmed another personand are still trying to, you
(17:54):
know, think and think that isokay, and think that they coming
back like the me too, right?
Like they have physically harmedsomeone, and they are coming
back to sort of, you know, actlike it's okay. The system is
geared towards that. So it's notlike I want to boycott or cancel
anyone. I will not endorse themfurther. Their art exists. I've
consumed it, and I'm okay withthat. I think another question
(18:15):
is that, in terms of separatingthe art and the artist, is the
question of something called,never meet your heroes, right?
The art, the person who'screating the art is is informed
by the life choices, butultimately, the art takes on a
life of its own. And if you readsomething and you're like, Oh my
(18:37):
God, this resonates so much withme and my values and things like
that. And then you meet theperson, like, for example, like
Harry Potter, like I love yourstory and everything and the
values and all of that, right?
And if you meet the artist, andyou expect that artist to be
like the magical world they'vecreated, or it's like, if you
(18:58):
meet a comedian and you expectthem to be the funniest person
every line you know that doesn'thappen. So I think that, you
know, I really believe in notmeeting your heroes sometimes,
because you will bedisappointed, you know, so or
you will. You may or may not bedisappointed, but you should not
put anyone on a pedestal justbecause you've created a work of
(19:20):
art that you really, reallylike, and you really love,
really love, and the book isconnected to you. You are
relating to the work. You're notrelating to the person. You
don't know if you will relate tothe person until you actually
meet
Michelle D'costa (19:32):
them. That that actually reminded me of a
very vivid scene from Fault inOur Stars. I don't know if
you've seen it. Tara, so it'sthe movies based on the book and
all of that. So there's a veryinteresting scene in that where
the girl meets her favoriteauthor, and she's so
disappointed, because shethought he would be this really
nice, caring, calm person, allof that. And it turns out to be
(19:53):
the most like, I don't know,rude, grumpy, like, person that
that she's met. And it just itshatters her. And I. Image,
Tara Khandelwal (20:01):
yeah. So I think, I
Michelle D'costa (20:03):
do think that, you know, that's, that's
something, but I also feelthat's a little tricky, it's a
little difficult, that,especially, especially now that,
you know, we've developed thisculture of, I mean, it's not
just fans who, like, you know,wait for us in line. It's, it's
also this, I think theboundaries have blurred, because
now we have access to, you know,all the people we love, right on
Instagram, especially in ourinfluencer culture, sort of
(20:28):
model where, you know, there'scontact with people, there's
contact with like, you know,contact with fans. Like the
whole, the whole idea of, let'ssay, you know, why are books
doing so well? Like, you know,especially books written by,
let's say influencers,celebrities, so many, so many
books are selling. Why? I alsothink it's because there's
contact with with fans. So it'sa little bit tricky. But I think
never with your heroes is alittle bit a little bit
(20:49):
difficult here. But I do agreethat that's one way of
separating, you, know, yourself,yourself from the author. Yeah.
Tara Khandelwal (20:55):
So at the retreat, we are the writers
retreat. We had recently we werehaving a very interesting debate
that I want to bring up here.
Also, the mentors were the sameTashan Mehta, and Chandrahas
Choudhury, and we were talkingabout fan fiction. And we were
talking about how, you know,everybody knows what fan fiction
is, is that you know, you're afan of the work, and you want to
be in that world a littlelonger, and then you like, take,
(21:16):
you know, characters, and youmake parallel stories about
them. Then we would, then wewere discussing between them,
you know, like, Would you reallylike it, or would you not? And
it was very interesting, becausethey both had different views.
One of them said, No, you knowwhat? Like, I don't want my work
to, like, be fan fiction, mywork exercises, you know, I
don't want, you know, I'm verysing. And then one of them was
(21:39):
like, now my work is out there,and I every fan fiction is like
a love letter to me, becausepeople enjoyed the work so much,
you know. So that was also veryinteresting in terms of, like,
putting into the context of theart versus artists debate that
the art definitely has a life ofits own, and the work definitely
has a life of its own. That'swhy the artists are creating.
(22:04):
What they're creating is becausethey wanted to live on after and
a great example, another greatexample of works that live on
and are disconnected from theartist is John Keats and Vincent
van Gogh and all these kind ofpeople who never saw any success
in their lives. They barely soldany paintings. John keats died
(22:24):
at 25 he did not know that hewas going to be such a
successful poet. And theyactually got fame, you know,
posthumously. So they don't evenknow, you know, how big they are
right now and how much theirvalue is. And I find that so
fascinating and also so sad, youknow? Because, yeah, I mean, you
creating so much, and you wantthat validation, but you're not
(22:49):
getting it, but the work willlive on forever and ever. Yeah,
Michelle D'costa (22:54):
and I think two things come to mind here.
Just imagine a world Tara, wherewe don't publish our works under
our name. I'm just thinking,let's say, let's say everyone
has a pseudonym. Let's say,let's say the publishing world
is like, we only publish you ifyou have a pseudonym, for
example. Just think of this, youknow, dystopian or utopian
world, whatever it might be. Howwould we ever know the identity?
(23:15):
Right? Like, let's just, let'ssay, example, Elena Ferrante,
right? I love her work. Youknow, people love her books,
Neapolitan novels, all of that,but nobody knows who she is,
right? We don't know who she isas a person. Just, just saying,
right? So what if, let's say,what if, just a hypothetical
situation, we find out tomorrow,and we don't like certain things
about her, what's going tohappen? Right? It might, it
(23:37):
might crash her entire work. Orit might just, I don't know,
like people might be morecurious to write a work I don't
know, the
Tara Khandelwal (23:45):
art versus artist debate actually also
makes me think of AI, because ifit's not about the artist and
it's just about the art, right?
I mean, I was playing aroundwith AI yesterday, and AI can do
amazing things, I have promptedit to write a full screenplay.
It didn't write it, but it, youknow, with its help, I could
turn out a pretty goodscreenplay with characters, and
(24:08):
it won't be jumpa re, it's notgoing to be Amitabh, but it's
going to be average. And I oftenwonder about that versus artist
thing when it comes to AI,because I think that's a very
relevant topic. You know, we sawthe whole Studio Ghibli, you
know, thing, where they tookthat image, and everybody was
creating its own thing. And whathappens to the artist in that
(24:30):
context, and is the way weconsume art going to change? Is
it not going to be about theartist at all, but just about
the work itself, and if the workis amazing, if AI created
another Harry Potter which wasjust amazing and gave so much
joy to people, would I mind ifit was created by AI, if it was
(24:52):
that good? Yeah,
Michelle D'costa (24:55):
that's very interesting, food for thought, I
think. And I think that's whenthat. Really, really highlights
or focuses the fact that, let'ssay anything done by a person,
right? It could be a smallsculpture, it could be a book,
it could be a huge monument,right? I think Humans inherently
are flawed. Unlike AI. Ofcourse, we'll come to AI, but I
think unlike AI, Humansinherently are flawed. So I do
(25:17):
feel like sort of, you know,giving, giving people the
benefit of doubt, or givingpeople a little bit, a little
bit of that leeway is important,because I'm not, I'm not here.
I'm not defending any, anyperson who is evil, who is
criminal. I'm not sayinganything like that, you know.
But I do think that artists workreally, really hard on their
(25:39):
work. It takes, sometimes ittakes years and years to create
something, right? And I don'tknow, AI, and how long did it
take for AI to write thescreenplay? By the way, it
didn't write
Tara Khandelwal (25:47):
the screenplay, but it did manage to write a
little bit of one episode, notwith its instant Exactly.
Michelle D'costa (25:53):
So AI, I think it would just hardly take, like,
half an hour or something tocreate something like that. But,
yeah, I think, I think then wewould just lose the whole
debate. But what I also thinkis, especially with the model of
AI we have right now, what I'veheard is AI is it just doesn't
create something from scratch.
It takes, obviously, it takesfrom whatever it has out there.
So whatever it has out there isinherently human, and it has all
the influences. It haseverything mixed up. So I think
(26:16):
what will happen here is it willbe very difficult to pinpoint.
It will very difficult to say,oh, but where did this come
from?
Tara Khandelwal (26:23):
If AI creates something that is so amazing,
it's so fun to eat, like, say,in five years, AI gets so good,
yeah, that it just creates apiece of art that is so
involving. Would you care ifit's created by AI, or would you
want because the art is amazingand the book is so amazing, or
whatever the movie is so great.
Would you be, like, it doesn'tmatter.
Michelle D'costa (26:46):
Wait, no, sorry, I'm very confused. What
do you mean? So AI is creating,if AI created the
Tara Khandelwal (26:51):
next Harry Potter, would you mind that it
was created by AI? I get
Michelle D'costa (26:57):
what you're saying. I don't know. Like, I
think, I think because AI isstill, is still in a nascent
stage, okay, still, we're stillsort of, we don't know what AI
is really capable of. So I dothink that, I do think it will
be really interesting to seeeven the way AI evolves, right?
And we all evolve as artists,right? We also, like, I mean, we
start out writing crap, we startout, and then, you know, our
(27:20):
later works become, you know,much better. I do think that
even with AI, we will, we willsort of be patient with AI. We
will be sort of, you know, we'llgive it the benefit of doubt. I
do think that the initial, sortof, you know, drafts might not
be great. Well, my
Tara Khandelwal (27:33):
question about that, my question is very
simple, okay, in five years, AIis amazing. AI is fantastic,
right? AI can create a book thatis amazing.
Michelle D'costa (27:47):
Let's say as good as, let's say as good as
Harry Potter, for as good
Tara Khandelwal (27:50):
as the best of the best. And a new, unique
concept, perfect, as perfect asyou can get fun to read
interesting. Would you care thatit's made by AI, or would you
read it and participate in itanyway?
Michelle D'costa (28:08):
I would, yeah, that's, I mean, the main reason
is because I love art. Like Isaid, I love art. I love I mean,
yes, I do, you know, justbecause, I mean, honestly, just
because I'm a writer, I havethis obsession of looking at
writers bios and blurbs before Iread a book, right? But let's
say I separate that identity. Iseparate the identity of a
writer. I will consume the workirrespective of of, let's say
(28:31):
who's written. Because I justwant to enjoy. I want to enjoy.
I want to read the good story.
Yeah, definitely. I shouldn't
Tara Khandelwal (28:37):
wait. Shouldn't bother me, not give I mean, if
we want to protect the sanctityof artists, shouldn't we not be
promoting AI as creations? Imean, something to prevent that.
Or can we? You know, that is myquestion. AI is the greatest
representation of art, havingits own life devoid of the
(29:00):
artist. So I think, sort oflike, it's very interesting to
see what happens, because Ithink this debate is even more
relevant now, because of AI,because, you know, the creators
who actually sort of likecreating things and things like
that, I wonder if, as a as ahuman population, we are moving
(29:23):
towards that space where itdoesn't matter who's created
what, and, you know, if it'sgood, it'll have a life. I think
only time will tell. Yeah,
Michelle D'costa (29:33):
totally. I think, I think if it's AI, and
it's not something that I wantto promote, but I do think
there's some things thatinevitable, especially when it
comes to technology. You know,being a 90s kid, I've seen like,
I've used the Walkman, and nowwe are in a completely different
generation. So I do think thatAI will just spiral. And just
like any any other technology,we have different versions of
it, right? But I am, I am allfor, like, freedom of speech,
(29:55):
and that includes AI, okay, but,but as a writer, honestly, as a
writer, I do believe. That youridentity is a very big part of
your writing. And I'm sayingthat from experience, because,
let's say, right? You've read mywork, you know, I always, almost
always, write about migration,right? And why? That's because I
felt it very deeply. That'sbecause I have been a migrant
for most of my life, and it'snot something I set out to
(30:16):
write, right? You don't decideone day, oh, I'm going to write
about migration? No, it just, itjust subconsciously comes to
you. It comes to your writing,and I think that's, that's
beautiful. I think it's you,right? Let's say now, for
example, you there might becertain themes, there might be
certain things that you feelstrongly about, you know. So
when you write, it's going tocome out. So I do fear as a
writer, that I could protectthat space. I could be like,
(30:36):
okay, just it. Could just be us,you know, artists, but we are
also flawed. I feel humans alsoflawed. So when it comes to
humans writing, it, it's verytough to separate both the art
and artist 100% and there are somany things that are going to
come up. Um, I think in somecases, some writers are just
recluses. Some we don't evenknow what's happening in their
life. And some people are just,let's say they're out there,
(30:57):
right? And we get to know a lotof information about them. So
it's a bit tricky, but I dothink that if AI comes up with
anything that's like, fabulous,I am gonna, I am gonna consume
it. Why not? Like,
Tara Khandelwal (31:09):
I think, I think my point you're trying to
make is you're one on the onehand, you're a creator. On the
one hand, you're a consumer. Asa creator, yeah, as a as a
Michelle D'costa (31:19):
creator, I want to be biased, right? So the
Creator, I want to feel like,okay, no, but you know, artists
have their identity that, andthat's, you know, it's
beautiful, like it comes outthrough their writing orders,
and that's what creates the art,right? But on the other hand, as
a consumer, if AI, let's say,creates something fabulous, I
would love to, I would love toconsume that. Yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (31:37):
I don't know if I wouldn't consume something so
fabulous, you know. But I thinkin the future, what I see myself
doing is definitely promotingartists more and more and more
as AI becomes, you know, betterand better at what it does, and
we don't know, and this is justit, just purely hypothetical. I
have no idea what AI is going todo. I have no idea what it's
(31:57):
capable of, and no idea what thelaws are going to be and how
this whole thing is going toevolve. This was just a fun
hypothetical thing, but I dobelieve in promoting artists a
lot, and you know, because it'svery special thing, and they
give us a lot of joy, and thisis what we do in our free time.
What do we do? We consume music,we watch movies, we go to art
(32:21):
galleries, we read books, right?
These are all things that arebeing created right now, at
least by somebody. So I thinkit's important to promote, and I
also think it's important tolook be critical when there's
something going wrong without,actually, you know, going ahead
and having a unilateraldecision, which is, okay, I'm
going to cancel a boy callsomeone, because that is very
(32:42):
extreme, unless there is anextreme circumstance. So that is
sort of my conclusion, if I hadto wrap this thing in a bowl,
yeah.
Michelle D'costa (32:50):
And I think this also made me think about
something Tara, because I'mcurrently doing my MA in
creative writing, which isliterally about writing. So I
was just thinking, if AI, if AI,takes over, we might not have
these programs anymore, but onthe other hand, we might even
need it even more, because then,as you said, right, you want to
promote more artists. I think atthat point we will be so
protective of individuality, soprotective of of, let's say,
(33:13):
like human thought, for example,that I think, I think people
will crave for, for, uh, contentwritten by, written by writers
like I know, I know that it'snever going to discourage me,
but I can only say that aboutmyself, right? I'm not talking
about the industry or publishersor what content is going to come
out. But let's say, even thoughI know if AI can write 10 times
better than me, I'm still goingto write because that's all I
(33:34):
know. You know, that's somethingthat brings me joy. I don't know
if anyone's going to read it,but yeah, I
Tara Khandelwal (33:40):
actually feel like, while AI might like, get
to, like, the general, thedemand for excellence will it'll
raise the bar. And, you know,like, I think there'll be even
better writers out there,because it'll sort of like, you
know, raise a bar, and therewill be even more need for MFA
programs and things like that.
Because at the end of the Ithink my question also about,
(34:01):
would you, would you watchsomething that's so fabulous
with creative and AI, it comesunder trust. The one thing that
AI cannot do, right though itcan, pretty much in like a
future, everything. But can Itrust it the way, I know an
integrity. If an artist hasintegrity and has created
(34:22):
something with, you know, theirfull imagination and put their
soul, I'm not talking about theartist values and talking about
the process of creation. I trustthat that story is really
original, that it's come from aspecial place. And I know that,
you know that that thing issomething that we cherished, but
(34:43):
the AI feel like there's thatelement of human trust and human
emotion which makes it lessspecial, even though the work
might be amazing for me. Yeah,and I
Michelle D'costa (34:55):
think, I think that really sort of reminds me,
like, why? I really enjoyinginterview, you know, authors,
like we were discussing theother day, right? What is it
about BNB, what is it aboutbooks and women that we love?
Like I was just thinking, right?
Tata, if something's written byAI, who will you like? What?
What would you ask process, forexample, right? So I think the
reason I really started likeenjoying interviewing writers is
(35:18):
because I realized no twowriters are the same. Everybody
has a different approach, right?
And on the podcast, we haveinterviewed writers in different
genres, but sometimes it's thesame genre. For example, let's
say we are interviewing crimewriters, right? But it's a very
different genre of crime. It's avery different approach,
different style. So, yeah, Ithink, I think there's so much
(35:39):
beauty in each each individualauthors process. Imagine I was
like, interviewing, AI, I don'tknow, but yeah, I do. I do think
that that the fact that we haveinterviews, the fact that there
are literature festivals, thefact that there is, there are
opportunities for us to evenengage with people in US India
process is because of that youknow, like, we never know,
(36:01):
right? You never know, like,what's going on in our mind? I
think, I think, I think our mindis, like, the most mysterious
thing ever. So, yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (36:08):
yeah. I mean, what makes us and, you know, how
does our like, how does it alllike, come together? So I think,
I think that's a great note toend this conversation. Because,
you know, yeah, we're doing thisbecause we want to get inside
the minds of these authors whoare creating these amazing
works, and the season is goingto be more power packed and as
power packed as our previousseasons, I think we've only
(36:29):
gotten you know better enjoyingit more than ever. So hope that
everyone who listens in lovesthe season as much as we have
recording it, and we have someamazing authors coming up. Yeah,
Michelle D'costa (36:41):
totally can't.
Just can't wait for the episode.
Super, super excited. Okay,
Tara Khandelwal (36:45):
Michelle, thanks. I think this was a very
interesting discussion. Lot offood for hot. I know it's quite
late there in New Zealand, soyes, let's maybe, yeah, we keep
connect again and have one ofthese long, winding chats. But
yeah, good night.
Michelle D'costa (37:03):
Fear. Bye.
Tara Khandelwal (37:06):
Hope you enjoy this episode of Books and Beyond
Michelle D'costa (37:09):
with bound.
This podcast is created bybound, a company that helps you
grow through stories. Find us atbound India on all social media
platforms.
Tara Khandelwal (37:18):
Tune in every Wednesday as we peek into the
lives and minds of somebrilliant authors from India and
South Asia, you.
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In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.