May 20, 2025 • 47 mins
What happens when the love of family feels more like a battlefield?
In her debut novel Famous Last Questions, Sanjana Ramachandran explores the messy, painful, and sometimes beautiful struggle of growing up caught between parental expectations and the search for your true self. With sharp honesty and warmth, she dives into themes of rebellion, identity, and the healing power of mindfulness.
Join Tara and Sanjana as they trace her journey—from getting kicked out of BITS Pilani to writing the viral “Sanjana Effect” article that sparked a conversation about cultural pressures, and finally to publishing her debut novel. It’s a story of resilience, courage, and finding your own voice against the odds.
‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.
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Episode Transcript
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Tara Khandelwal (00:02):
Un Welcome to Books and Beyond. With bound I'm
Tara Khandelwal and I'm Michelled'cota, in this podcast, we talk
to India's finest authors
Michelle D'costa (00:11):
and uncover the stories behind the best
written book and
Tara Khandelwal (00:15):
dissect how these books shape our lives and
worldviews today. So
Michelle D'costa (00:20):
let's dive in.
Tara Khandelwal (00:23):
Today, I'm doing something I absolutely
love, rewinding to the glorious90s. Think floppy disk phantom
cigarettes and secret diariestucked under pillows. But more
than nostalgia, I'm also asking,How did growing up in the 90s
shape who I am today. And toexplore this question, I'm
joined by Sanjana Ramachandran.
She's an essayist, comic and nowDebbie, author of famous last
(00:45):
questions. I really like thisbook because it's part memoir,
part cultural deep dive, and itbrilliantly dissects the Indian
millennial identity. It unpackshow the India we grew up in,
those very specific do's anddon'ts the pop culture the
unspoken rules has shaped oursense of self, and we
Millennials are full ofcontradictions. We're modern but
(01:06):
traditional, self aware butconfused, successful but deeply
anxious. Even Shashi Tharoor hascalled this book The defining
book for millennials. So as amillennial myself, I found it
deeply relatable, and can't waitto get into the questions that
you ask in this book. Welcome.
Thank
Sanjana Ramachandran (01:25):
you, Dara, I'm very excited to be here and
talk about the book with someonewho read it and seems to relate
it to it and understood it. So,yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (01:32):
glad, yeah. I related to it a lot, you know.
And I really liked that thisbook is a mix of personal and
then, of course, you add in alot of research to qualify why
we think the way we do. So Iwanted to know what was the
starting point. Let's go back tothe beginning. What was the
starting point of writing thisbook? At what and at what point
did you know? Okay, this isn'tjust my story, but it's a story
(01:54):
that connects to these biggerconversations around class,
caste, technology.
Sanjana Ramachandran (01:59):
I think the starting point was, as I
mentioned earlier in the firstpage of the book, it was
something that the way my lifeunfolding made me think was the
reason for it, like there were alot of extreme events through my
childhood and teenage years thatmade me feel like all of this
can only happen to someone whoselife is meant to be a story.
Otherwise it's not. It's notnormal. But that was the seed
(02:22):
for like me, wanting to makeeverything that happens to me
and around me some kind of storywhich is not necessarily
healthy, because you're alwaysthen, I mean, subconsciously,
sometimes seeking. And those arethings I'm coming down with in
relative but I would say that'swhen it really started, long
ago, and how the current shapeand form it took, I think there
was a very definitive moment in2020, right through the
(02:45):
lockdowns, when it's funny this,I was seeing this boy, entirely
digitally, like we'd never met.
He was an old friend. Wehappened to chat, you know, like
phone, video call and like, wejust really hit it off. He was
in another country, and soon wefound that like we were dating,
and one of the books he gave mein the six months that
relationship lasted throughwhich we never actually saw each
(03:08):
other face to face, and plentyof new digital territories were
explored. He gave me this bookcalled Trick mirror by GIA
Tolentino, which I felt was,like, very, very relatable to me
as a like, that's a book by awhite woman, and I don't know,
it's probably problematic to sayI related to it in some ways,
but I did because it's and Ifound that many people might see
herself themselves in her story,because she talks about growing
(03:31):
up with the internet, and inIndia, growing up with the
internet, that just took me backto how fragmented I started to
become right back then. Likethere were, intuitively, I was
like, my parents wouldn't liketo see this. So I need to, like,
if I'm being on Facebook, then Ineed to like, make sure they
don't see that content. Or,like, we didn't have the word
content that time. So that thatbook gave me a sort of frame for
(03:52):
the way I was thinking about mylife. Then I also, I mean, tried
different forms. Like you said,I had tried to joke about my
life. I wrote some otherscreenplays and essays took off
because, like, my work with 52kind of gave me that structure
that the book expands on andlike goes beyond now, but just
basically, like, start jumpingfrom the personal to the
(04:14):
societal to reportage andresearch. That's kind of what I
did with the namesakes. One ofmy essays for 52 which explored
the story of how I got my nameSanjana. And it turned out like
I knew there were like, one ortwo or three other people like
me, and that's what the firstdraft of that story took like.
Here's why my name is Sanjana.
Here's what my parents werethinking. Here are all the
(04:35):
aspirations and meanings. Andyou know what research says
about baby names and success andall of that? And then Supriya
and I are the editor of 52 inthe second draft, said, I'm
pretty sure like this, why don'twe just put out a call on
Twitter and see how many people?
And then, like, I spoke to like,4550 people for that story. And
then that became so through likethat, I got like this formula,
the craft of like, how, how doyou like, try to find and my
(04:56):
marketing background alsohelped, because it's a lot of
like. Consumer Psychology andlike, you know, what is one
thing really about you? Or is itabout like, there's a
methodology to finding thatstuff out? So I yeah, I've been
really interested in this way ofunderstanding and analyzing the
world. It's time consuming. It'slong form, but I think it does
give you more insight than a lotof things that we gravitate
(05:17):
towards today. So that's, I hopeanswered your question, yeah.
Tara Khandelwal (05:21):
And actually read the Sanjana after when it
came out. Really, really enjoyedit as well. So I really like the
beginning of the story, becauseit starts with, you know, the
scene of your expulsion, andsomeone carrying you home drunk.
And then you know your Aman,your upper I mean, I can only
imagine whatever I'm like inperson, and then we've always,
(05:45):
you know, that led you to havethis sort of achievement
complex, and we've already seenthese classic hippie films,
right where the rebellious kidgets tame and they turn into an
obedient adult. And in yourcase, it feels like the
opposite, like you did all thethings that expected of you. You
studied engineering and BITSPilani. You worked you and iIm.
You worked in marketing, chem,but on your own terms and and
(06:10):
you also, you know, at one pointwe're going to marry the
conventional, you know, yeah, gosit. And now you're out here
writing essays and publishing anovel and sort of turning that
on, on its head. So I reallywanted to speak a little bit
more about that.
Sanjana Ramachandran (06:23):
Yeah. I think the the deeper part of
that split, like, yes, it makesyou, I think even people without
that kind of plot point eventwhere you get expelled, and
therefore that, like, gives yousome instinctual, major reason
to prove yourself and correct,you know, some mistakes. I think
India is like a very competitivecountry. From the start, I was
(06:45):
chatting about this with somefriends, our nervous systems are
probably more on edge than, youknow, first world countries,
because, like, right from theget go, we're told that, you
know, it's do or die, like,there's just one or two or 10%
of you that that has a life thatwe call making it and so that
you everybody's just, like,focused on, you know, making it
(07:05):
and survival is the biggestthing. And if you look at even
how how crowded our roads areand how crowded our houses and
rooms are, like, there's notenough space, so we're, like,
constantly fighting forresources, and it feels very
zero sum in our heads from theget go, where, like, my success
will come at the cost of yours.
I feel like that's ingrained inand I talk about this in chapter
two, that then that my successat the cost of yours also is how
(07:26):
how identity starts to come intothe picture. Because you as this
identity have certainopportunities, and then there
are other identities that peoplesay are marginalized and, you
know, oppressed, so they'regoing to be given points, but to
the dominant identity that'svery threatening. So I feel like
everybody in India has thisachievement complex, and India
as a nation has this achievementcomplex because we were
(07:48):
plundered and colonized like nottoo long ago, two to three
generations ago. So I feel likeeveryone's always trying to
prove they're Indian, and what.
What does it really mean to belike as Indian as anybody else,
and then India itself is, likethis major country. Everything
seems to, like, tie back to anachievement in AI. Everything's
like, you know, will India getthere? So a lot of like
(08:09):
nationalism and like selfactualization that I think needs
to happen for all of us that areindividual and cultural levels.
I feel like, even though I'vebecome aware that I had this
complex that drove me to alwayspush myself, even when I may not
have cared, like, I don't evenknow, do I care or do I not
care? I just have to do itanyway, like we're all just in
that go mind.
Tara Khandelwal (08:27):
I think I very much relate to that as well.
Because obviously, you know, mycareer path is not anything
linear, but even within, youknow, non linear parts you
obviously expected to be sort oflike what you said top of the
field, you know, yeah,
Sanjana Ramachandran (08:40):
yeah.
Yeah. Like, for example, eventhough I'm pursuing what I think
is me now there's, there's stillthe voice of other people and
dates and how they expect awriter's life to look like. So I
have this friend who will belike, you know, you should do
these things and you'll get morefollowers. And I'm like, that's
not my style at all. Like, Idon't imagine myself creating
like, random controversies toget attention, like I might do
(09:02):
reason, like, I'll do all ofthat, but and then, you know,
it's only a big book. If it'slike, you know, Shashi Tharoor
has to endorse it for it to bean achievement. You aren't just
going to read it and, like,appreciate it for what it is.
And that's fair, because we'reliving in a very saturated
environment. But it does exist,and it does like, Penguin has to
be the publisher for my familyto get it. Otherwise she just
quit her job and she was sittingat home somewhere, which is not
(09:23):
true, even though we'rerecording this podcast at home.
But like,
Tara Khandelwal (09:28):
we're very brand conscious as Indians, and
we have to sort of prove, youknow, that we have worked with
the brands that we associatedwith. I think
Sanjana Ramachandran (09:36):
it's interesting because, like, if
you feel like you don't have,like, you have a point to prove,
the earliest way people aregoing to reach out is, like, by
associating with things thatalready have that worth in the
world's eyes. So brands arelike, one of the first like, so
the influx of brands and theopportunities that gave us to
like, sort of demarcate where weare on the class ladder and
like, what kind of people weare. And I think the interesting
(09:58):
thing about like, you know.
Dalits owning an iPhone, or,like, luxury bags, wearing
suits, etc, like thecapitalistic form of, like,
resistance against what isconsidered to be appropriate for
marginalized costs, like thatthat also exists. Another thing
Tara Khandelwal (10:14):
I liked about the book is, you know, the sense
of contradiction and cognitivedissonance, which we spoke about
earlier. I think there's areally large sense of self
awareness. And I think myfavorite character was the one
about the work chapter, justbecause for me, it was also very
relatable. You know, nobody inmy family knows what I do, and
it's very hard to explain it tothem. I also talk about, you
(10:36):
know, the broader themes of thesystems of capitalism. And I
like the paradox that you pose.
You say you're both antiestablishment and not you're
within the system because youwant a nice life, yet you
understand its drawbacks. And Ilike that sense of contradiction
that was there in not only thischapter, but even in, for
example, the chapter about body,right? Because you recognize
that you know growing up, Iremember Kareena Kapoor size
(10:58):
zero, but then you say, yet youcare about your looks. So can
you talk more about thatcontradiction?
Sanjana Ramachandran (11:06):
Yeah, I feel like any kind of argument
that links, not just withoutcapitalism, but in general, any
kind of argument that's like,it's 100% this and a 0% the
opposite, like, it doesn't dojustice to how we as human
beings feel, where we canactually have, we can feel two
different ways about the samething, and we can be like I, and
that's that's true of people. Solike, I like this about certain
(11:27):
people. I love them overall, butI hate certain characteristics,
but I will keep them as myfriend as long as they treat me
well, you know, so because Ithink that's what, that's what
it means to be like acomplicated and, you know,
nuanced person, instead ofbecause if you're more wedded to
an ideology than the realitythat you're in, I think that's
when you become kind of rabidand fetal whether you left us or
(11:48):
right is, I think, like, ifyou're only because no ideology
is right 100% of the time, butyou are invested in seeing and
making it right 100% of thetime, which means you're, like,
going to be even more at oddswith yourself than, I think, a
person who's aware that I'm forsome things and for other
things, but I can't live outthose values and ideas all the
time. It's the best that I cando. And I actually feel like
being in the middle has helpedme have, I don't know, not more
(12:11):
impact, but a decent amount ofimpact. And I would like there's
also, I mean, many theories tosay that in a study of feminist
movements, I think Adam Grantwrote that the ones who were
moderate kind of paved the wayfor radicals to actualize their
you know what they wanted to butI think more more practically
and in my life, I feel like, forexample, I've been I've worked
(12:32):
at a brand where I wrote aboutcaste in Indian marketing
sometime back, and that piecethen became like something that
People in my university used forresearch and, like, studying ads
further, and that wasn't adiscourse about, like, how you
can respectfully and useadvertising as a tool to raise
awareness, or, like, you know,push back, create resistance on
these things, because it's like,honestly, I mean, capitalism
(12:55):
being like, we've seen whathappens to every Pride Month. So
it's not necessarily going to bemeaningful, but at least it
sparked that thought. And sincethen, like, you know, like,
there was a brand that I wasworking with that wanted to use
Swami as a brand mascot, and Iwas like, that's very
brahminical and probablyexclusionary. And even though it
would talk to your PG of, youknow, elite Indians, it, it
(13:17):
would not be, quote, unquote,inclusive and appropriate. I
think so. I think there's a lotyou can achieve by having the
awareness and, you know, knowingthe system's drawbacks, and then
being in the system, because youcan, like, incrementally,
marginally, like, say the thingsthat you think should happen,
and make that change happen.
Instead of being like, thesepeople suck, and everything
(13:37):
about this sucks. And I'm goingto be in believing this ideology
that actually has no basis in,you know, it's all theory. Like
some of, some of what I hearpeople is just all theory. Like,
how are you going to, like, Imean, to each their own, but
this is what I've made my peacewith. So I feel like that
dissonance exists, continues toexist. I think it will always
exist for me, Herman Melville,you know, apparently. So just a
(13:59):
few 1000 copies with Moby Dickin his lifetime. And most of
these names that we reviewKafka, you know, they all had
office jobs, and they were allkind of not really well known in
their lifetimes, but they wererecognized by the institutions,
etc, later on. But like, how arewe going to not have these? You
know, your foot in theestablishment, even if you're
(14:19):
not working in a job like youwill brush against it. You will
buy a bottle of this Larry. Youwill have to come to terms with
the fact that this is thesystem. So I think instead of
hating it, you need to also seeits merits. And there are there
are merits, like I mentioned inchapter five and six, like the
work chapter and in the bodychapter. I think the merits are
less because capitalism neverwill let you feel okay about how
(14:41):
you look. But at least in thework chapter, there is like it's
unfair, there's a lot ofinequality, but advancement is
possible. The better life ispossible. And if you are
resenting people who have betterlives than you, know there's
something you can do about that,like there is some even though
it's not really fair, andthere'll be a lot of roadblocks
you get, even as a woman, evenas a martial. Nice caste or
religion, but you can try. Sothere are merits, and those,
(15:03):
those merits have helped me andmy mother and the women I know,
escape some horrible situations.
So I don't think it's fair toit's completely hated, but it's
okay to know that these arethese things are not okay. And I
think that opens a room fordiscussion, like, for example,
startups, if you look at it, thecommunist ideal is, I think,
very vague and lose analogies,if I'm permitted to make. But
(15:26):
like, you know, the whole theoryof Marxism is that you're
alienated from the fruits ofyour labor, if I'm and that
causes like whatever self isalienated from the fruit of its
labor. But if you look at it instartups, the model is that
you're given a percentage ofownership, and then you are all
rallying around that, and youare like, I think it is, like a
fair model that is, is like,keeps, keeps you proportional to
(15:49):
what you're investing. And so Idon't know a lot of it seems to
I don't, maybe I don'tunderstand it fully, but there
are ways in which you can createsystems that are at least fair
in themselves. I agree, because
Tara Khandelwal (16:00):
that's when you can also have conversation,
because we are livingcontradictions, right? Like, I
know this a lot as well, when itcomes to work and privilege,
also, you know, when it comes toclimate change, you know, how
many products can I actuallybuy? What? What is the impact
that I can do, even if I live,you know, 100% in line with, you
(16:21):
know, everything. It's not goingto make an impact when it's not
possible. So you have to sort ofbe within the system, as you
said, and also think about thecontribution that you can make
in a in a way that you can alsolive your daily life and, you
know, enjoy it. So I think,absolutely, I
Sanjana Ramachandran (16:37):
think a lot of privilege, and that's
been the norm, I think, for thelast few years of identity
politics, or whenever the socialjustice thing became really,
it's like, we love to liverather comfortable lives and
then feel really guilty about itand be like, you know, but we
consume so much. I'm going to belike, buying everything at like,
a locally sourced, organicthing, and like those, you don't
(16:58):
even know what those food chainlike you are being anti
consumers in the most consumerspossible way, because there's a
lot of stuff targeted to peoplelike you to make you feel better
about your place in the economythat is still part of that
economy. So and I've also like,I feel like, personally,
sometimes those people, the veryrighteous people who are like,
judging their every action andmaking these decisions to fit
(17:19):
like, feel less guilty, likethey're sometimes the most
annoying people to be around.
You know, they're constantlycorrecting. You know, this is
like, you know, this has, like,sulfate or whatever, and I don't
know, but I just feel like Ican't be myself all the time
around, like i There are partsof me and like, if I were to,
like, completely not even try tobe correct, or thinking about
the rest of the population inthis like, I think, if it going
(17:40):
back to that survival thing, andthis is like, a lot of the
comforts that we're all tastingare for the first time, and
nobody is going to like, if youhave truly suffered, you won't
take it for granted. Like, ifyou have been in a difficult
spot in your life, and you reacha place of comfort and stability
and the structure that theestablishment, whatever system
can be with all of its flaws,with all of its micro traumas
(18:01):
and sexism and misogyny andcasteism, you will still value
the comfort and the safety ofliving in an apartment and like
having a roof above your headand three meals. Like why all of
that is part of that samesystem. For example, I had a
friend who was like, climatechange is actually good in some
parts of the world, betweenwaning more and it's having all
of these. So, I mean, you know,if you look at it as a system
(18:24):
level, it's very uneducated alsoto say that it's only bad
because, like at a largesystemic level, things are going
to have such complex effectsthat if you're going to say
something is good or bad, andgive me, like, a proper analysis
of it, but on the face of it, tome, as a layman, most things are
good and bad.
Tara Khandelwal (18:41):
100% agree with that. I feel like we have so
many opinions, but most of themare not packed with research. I
also want to talk about ourrelationship with parents,
because that is something thatis a very sort of millennial
thing, because we're constantlystuck between generations,
right? We are told to fit intothese family and societal
expectations, and then we'resurrounded by the younger
(19:03):
generations who maybe are morein touch with identities. And
so, you know, you talked aboutin the book how we're
chameleons. You know, we'replaying the good child friend.
We have these masks on all thetime. And you know, also the
question of morality, like,what's a good Indian girl?
What's not all of those thingsare things that when you're
(19:25):
growing up, to grapple withthose issues. So I just wanted
to ask a little bit more ofthat. And did you uncover any
new aspects of identity when youwere writing? Yeah,
Sanjana Ramachandran (19:34):
I think a lot of it was started by a need
to be honest at home about allthe ways in which I'd failed
them, but they didn't know aboutit, because I had this perfect
front and exterior and mask athome. I felt like I had to, you
know, create things and putmyself out there, but I was
like, wrapped with fear. Becausehow will I do that if the people
I'm hiding from are, like, rightaround me? So how am I gonna,
(19:55):
like, be myself on a largerstage? If, like, I can't even be
myself at home, so I. Then likethat. If anyone's read the book,
they'll see that they're veryintertwined, that it was only
this effect, like standing up toanything that's not that's not
you, and then that just makesthe rest of your life align. And
then the people who stay, theystay, and it's great. And the
people who don't, it sucks, andit really hurts, but you find a
(20:17):
way to make peace within and gotto a point where, like, I think
I always try to spare my parentsa lot of my feelings, because,
well, they are harsh, like theysome of them are like, and I
think it's okay, because, like,we also have this very black and
white thinking in India. I thinkyou can see it in a lot of the
way media discourse andreactions play out, like when
(20:37):
the body I said that, you know,kind of inanely disgusting
question about parents. It'salso a borrowed comic motive,
and like, in reacting to that,people were like, the fuck. And
also, you know, politicianscoming after him and like, why
is it? Why is the question,like, if I talk about my parents
(20:58):
in a slightly critical way, I'msure there's a crop of people
who'll be like, they're yourparent. They did everything for
you. And so how can you evencriticize them? And I'm like,
you can criticize anything likeanything with a healthy ego. You
can be like, this was good, thiswas bad. Here's what might, you
know, change things. But I thinkit's only when you you equate
any criticism to hatred, or, youknow, absolute disrespect that
(21:19):
means that there's somethingculturally wrong. There's like,
a complex there, like, we can'tstand criticism about certain
things. That means that we'renot able to see that things are
not zero or one. There's like, asheet of, you know, yes, they
did all of those things, andyes, I'm, like, probably going
to be indebted to them for therest of my life or lifetimes.
But they did also hurt me, andthey did also stifle me in
(21:41):
certain ways, and they they didthese things that have not
helped me. You know, in the bestWhy can't I talk about these
things? So I feel like did getto a point in my myself, at home
as well, where I was like, Ineed to be able to say this. And
I see examples of betterrelationships in media all the
time. So what is the big deal?
And it did, even though I hadcome to that realization, there
was a lot of like, difficulty inbeing honest with them, because
(22:04):
they're, like, very entrenchedin their own point of view and
what they think you should be.
So I mean, it was many repeatedpushbacks. And then I think this
chapter six talks about this oneepisode or mental breakdown
where I was just like, I had tobe honest, like, the pressure
and your own problems becomingmy problems, lack of boundaries,
(22:25):
and how I've had to always bethere for myself because I can't
even be myself at home. All ofthat came out, and I mean, my
mom's really changed since then.
I have to give her a shout outif she ever ends up listening to
this or reading the book in itsentirety. Honestly, I hope they
don't. It was not for themanyway, and things are fine now,
but, yeah, my mom's become afriend like she knew. She
(22:46):
understood that in standing upfor her, and, you know, the
history that we had, I lost alot of myself. And so she's
made, she's gone above, andshe's never like, sort of lacked
in the discipline and the dutiesof a parent, right? She's like,
not unlike, you know, fathers,Indian fathers, they should
never drop the ball. Superresponsible. It's only the
emotional part where she's,like, learned to become a
(23:08):
friend. I think, yeah, it ishard. Like you said, like, so
what is it like for you with theparents thing? Yeah, actually,
Tara Khandelwal (23:18):
I had a very different experience. I have a
lot of friends who, you know,parents put a lot of pressure on
them in terms of, like, moralityand things like that. My parents
actually grew up drinking,smoking, partying, so I actually
rebelled the other way, becausewhen I was growing up, I saw my
friend's parents being very,sort of strict, and my parents
(23:39):
were all my my dad is sort oflike the black sheep family, and
was very rebellious for histime. I went the other way. And
I went, like, very, like, allgirls, good girl, like, smoking
is bad. I will never go to anight club. I will never, like,
do anything, you know, all ofthat. And like, total, like, you
know, that way. And then Iactually, I then in my like 20s,
(24:02):
like, okay, you know what? Like,this is a reaction to that. So
it was a very differentexperience. I think I'm
interesting as well. Yeah,
Sanjana Ramachandran (24:10):
yeah. I think human beings are dumb,
yeah. Basically, our psyche isso rooted in, like, this
subconscious rebellion, plus,you know, conforming worship
and, like, you know, dislikeauthority issues and all of
that. Like, it's interesting.
Like, I think, like that. Theother reason I don't want any,
like, my parents to be affectedby the book in any way, is just
see it as, like, your child hasjust processed some things, and
(24:32):
don't take it too personally,because, anyway, like, you're
not taking it too personally. Soit's fine. But like, yeah, it's
just that. I think there's a wayin which children will always
get fucked up by their parents.
And
Tara Khandelwal (24:44):
I just want to say that you can,
Sanjana Ramachandran (24:47):
yeah, like, even if you give kids the
most perfect parenthood, theywill feel stifled by it. They'll
want to rebel in their own way.
It's just like a part of growingup where you're like these
people who are like everythingto you you're so sad, like, for
which. Child psychologically,the parent triggers are God
triggers. So if they're thewhole world, so the smallest
you're constantly reading intothings as as a kid. So even
things that they are doing like,as a normal, stressed out adult,
(25:09):
who has probably many, you know,things to manage, you may just
be like, I don't know, to somequestion, but then that child is
going to be like, she brushed meoff and like, you know, her hand
was dismissive and it means shehates me. I'm not worthy, and
that narrative is thenconstantly looking for
affirmation from what isactually one innocent moment. So
I think even with parents whoare, like, educated about the
(25:33):
emotional worlds of their kids,there is the way you will fuck
them up, which is why I lovethat Philip Larkin poem that I
put it in the book also, whichis, they fuck you up your mom
and dad, and they pass them onto you so you can fuck your own
kids up too. Like, it's, it'scycle of life, I think,
Tara Khandelwal (25:52):
yeah, it's so weird, and then you have to come
to terms with it. I was justreading this book called The
anxious generation. Interesting.
Yeah, okay. And it said that,oh, you know, your parents, you
know, like a healthy amount ofneglect is really good for you,
because then what happens is youget into a mode. You get into a
exploring mode, rather than ifyou're always portal, then you
defend more. And I was like, Oh,my parents really like them.
(26:16):
Probably did a very good job,because I was always like, when
I have a kid, I'm going to,like, be this, you know, like,
super mom and, you know,whatever. And then I was like,
you know, what, like, a goodamount of neglect, I was like,
probably has shaped me the waythat I am today, and I actually
appreciate that, you know. Soyou do learn, sort of, you know,
(26:38):
and come to terms with thethings that your parents did.
And I like that about your bookas well. So I wanted to ask, you
know, what do you want theaudience to get out of the book?
Because I really like thesections on, you know, women,
women at work, marriage, dating,all of that. So Is it primarily
a audience that is women? Whatabout a male audience?
Sanjana Ramachandran (27:02):
No, actually, that would not serve
my purpose if only women relatedto it. And that's not the point.
Also, I think the point of howsuffering is is not although,
yes, the narrative in identitypolitics is that these
identities have suffered, andthere's a lot of trauma from the
oppressed and oppressoridentity. A lot of it is also
about how Nobody escapes frommen women. And so even even
(27:25):
through the story of explaininghow female trauma occurs in
patriarchal family systems, theending of Chapter Six is about
how, actually the man who'ssupposed to benefit from these
patriarchal is also kind ofmiserable. So it's, it's, it's
basically like the structure ofhuman life is suffering various
kinds of suffering, and evenwhen everything's okay, there's
(27:47):
like, a bit of top layer ofsuffering that you can't get rid
of, like, no matter what's goingon. I think the central message
and the takeaway of the book isto, like, find your spiritual
inner center, because withoutthat, like, it's going to be
very hard to withstand the worldand how much there is to process
that only keeps increasing. Ithink the point of the book is
(28:08):
to find a way to be engagedthat's authentic to yourself and
genuinely like a scientific wayto be like, This is me and this
is not me. And I think that'swhat Vipassana gave me, and I,
I've been practicing for threeyears in in my own way, which is
which involves having a normallife again, like I do go out, I
(28:28):
still party and but I still comeback. And so that method of
knowing what is me and like thisconstant self scanning that
helps you know what reaction theworld is causing in you and what
you feel about those things, andthen being conscious about your
decisions and the way you showup to things in your life. I
think, yeah, it's basically abook about becoming conscious.
(28:48):
If I had to say that's like onecentral message and something
that is truly universal. I don'tknow if you've gotten to the
Epilog, but I've kind of tracedback the lineage of why I told
the story in this way, and itwas kind of cosmic things
interlinking for me when Ipicked up Siddhartha at some
point, I was towards the end ofwriting the book. I picked up
(29:09):
Siddhartha by Herman essayagain, and I I happened to,
like, when I read it this time,I was like, Oh, this is what the
book is about. And, like,there's so many parallels that I
when I read about how that bookcame out to be it's like, he
also undergoes like this. Idon't know if it's sparked by
trauma and difficulty, but he, Ithink it's a, it's an archetypal
journey that humans go throughin their could be mid 20s, late
(29:31):
20s, late 30s. Whenever thatinflection point occurs, they
are like, what is the meaning ofall this? And what is, what is
my place here? And how do I knowwhat that is? And sodharta goes
on this, like, you know,spiritual journey. He becomes
monkish, and he does that for afew years, and he's, you know,
stays away from that. And Ithere's like, this whole, that's
(29:52):
the end of seeking is also,like, a part of the spiritual
journey. So I feel like therewas that in in me, coming with
this, like. Burning me to findout why my life had been the way
it was. How do I heal from allthese things and truly become
myself? That all led to a seriesof experiences and questions
about becoming more consciousand then realizing even all the
questions are kind of, you know,they dissolve and you're left
(30:15):
with, like, some kind ofacceptance or understanding of
all these contradictions, allthe chaos, and yet very rooted
in something that's true to you.
So I would say that would that,I hope, would be the central
takeaway for anyone reading thebook, and it had to be specific
to my experience as a woman, sothat the specific shedding the
universal, so that both areconvincing, right? Because if I
just make it universal withouthaving the experience, it's not
(30:36):
real. But I think there is a wayin which, even if you read this,
it, parts of it are likespecific to womanhood. The
equivalent of manhood shouldstand out immediately because,
because this is happening towomen in a certain way, this is
what it's manifestation isinside me as a man, that maybe
I've been in condition to not becomfortable with my femininity.
(30:56):
Maybe I've not allowed myselfto, you know, fully not live up
to these ideals of what manhoodis. And that, if that, if it
sparks that insight and helpspeople challenge these
conditionings, I think thatwould be great, yeah.
Tara Khandelwal (31:10):
Oh, that makes sense. And I also like the way
that the book is structured,because every chapter is a
question. So you have, you know,one of the questions that I
really like is, will you everget married before I die?
Sanjana Ramachandran (31:19):
Yeah?
Which is so literal, yeah. Imean, I got made fun of it by
not even younger. I just alsowant to come back to the
millennial yeah question at somepoint. But yeah, like, what? You
didn't make everything aboutbeing in your 30s. And I was
like, Yeah, man. Like, I mean,it is, it is difficult my
grandmother to, like, last, Ithink it was my birthday, like,
recently, again, she was like,why don't you get married? I'm
(31:41):
going to die soon. And thistime, finally, after 656, years
of being, starting everyconversation the same way, I was
like, Maybe you should die. Youknow you should, maybe you
should. Like, I just lost it.
And I don't endorse thisbehavior. I don't endorse that
feeling, but I it just came out.
And I was like, Yeah, I meanthat that question is very
literal, like, get marriedbefore I die? Like, that's what
(32:02):
has been thrown at people. And Iknow I'm not alone, but like, a
lot of people, just like, getmarried or I'm going to die
soon. Like, it's just, like,very revealing of how shocking
that decision is expected to bestructured. So what if I find
find a lot of my life at 3738 Imean, very unlikely the way it's
going, but if it's, if that'sthe right time for me, then
that's the right time for me.
I'm not going to rush into it,because you're going to, in your
(32:24):
own words, die like,
Tara Khandelwal (32:27):
yeah, no, it is. It is funny. I think, like,
that's something that everyonerelates to grandparents and
things like that. That's like,the first topic of conversation
and but, yeah, I like thestructure of the book, and
within each chapter, I like howthe essays are very free
flowing. And there's a lot ofinformation, you know, and you
go, sort of, there's no, sortof, like, you go from one topic
(32:50):
to another. So can you talk alittle bit more about how you
constructed each essay? My mind,they're super
Sanjana Ramachandra (32:55):
structured.
I'm a very structured person. SoI have, like, when I start
writing, I usually have a map ofall the information I want to
join. So there's like, theselong docs with the flow, as I
call it, with the long docsbefore that were the research
and where every dump ofeverything that needs to come
together in that particularthing, and then before that, the
master doc on the book. So for aChapter, there's a lot of
(33:18):
reading around that. Like, Ithink for the it was in Jan this
year that I fully read a bookfor the first time in a long
time for leisure. I read Fiestaby Ernest Hemingway. But before
that, everything you knowconsciously unconscious is
always connecting back to thosequestions that you are trying to
answer and writing. So there wasa lot of information gathering
in every talk about everychapter, and a kind of order
(33:40):
that I then put to it that Iwant to start with the story,
connect to this point, connectto this that that was there, and
then there is improvisation thathappens along the way. So I'd
say like 80% of it is planned,and then 20% you do surprise
yourself in the things that cometo you while writing in the form
you give it. So that stream ofconsciousness bit also came up
in in chapter one a lot, becausebefore I wrote that, I could not
(34:00):
start with it was actually kindof quite linear in its own like,
because, if you notice, theorder of the questions is also
kind of chronological, or kindof like, first I dealt with
this, and then I dealt withthis, and then this, and now
finally I'm here so there. AndI'm a huge fan of linearity,
like, as a story, like, yeah,it's kind of traditional, but I
think it's a really good way tokeep I'm hooked when a narrative
(34:24):
is linear, because I'm like,What's going to happen next and
what's going to happen next? So,yeah, that was, that was what
went into, hopefully, the freeflowing. This is then, like,
kind of architected, but alsoimprovised, very
Tara Khandelwal (34:39):
organic, yeah.
And also wanted to ask, youknow, what goes into making good
personal essay? Because I seemore and more people wanting to
write about their lives. So howdid you do it in a way that is
interesting to a reader andadding, you know, some value,
like, what are some tips? Imean, personal essays
Sanjana Ramachandran (34:56):
are great.
And the first I read a lot ofDavid. Sadhas when I was turning
2122 it's also when I startedjournaling on a daily basis. So
I think personal essays I'd haveto prepare for, like a workshop
or something on this. I think ifI'm to give, like a properly,
accurate answer. But a fewthings, I think, is to actually
be honest. The harder part if,if you're a good writer, the
(35:20):
hardest part, I think, is notthe sentence or the craft of
putting a sentence together, butactually being in touch with
your feelings and all so all ofthe things that people are
afraid to say, like theirritations we've had at work or
somebody said something thatrubbed you off the wrong way. I
mean, these are things that Ithink we mostly try to shove and
act like they don't happen to usor we're unaffected by but if
(35:41):
you're in touch with thoseemotions, those difficult
emotions, that's, I think, thoseare the scenes for good essays,
like a conflict, or some, orsome, some, you know, difficult
feeling, and you want to traceback its roots and examine all
of its like history, itscontours. So I think it has to
be rooted in emotional honesty.
(36:02):
It has to be rooted in somethinginteresting and unusual and
difficult, maybe. And I thinkthey are a great means of, like,
giving your like honoring yourlife more than like. I think a
lot of what I'm grappling withright now the book comes out, is
like, there's some people,again, like I said, right? It's,
is it, is it by this? Or howmany copies is it going to sell?
(36:22):
Or has it by like penguin this?
That is the external expectationof of what writers should be, or
writing should be to you. Butfor most, I think it's a way of
knowing yourself andunderstanding it, and making
your life entertaining in someway and therefore bearable to
you. So I'd say I read a lot, bein touch with your feelings, and
do not shy away from them, andbe honest in all their
(36:44):
difficulty. And I love all themetaphors on the quotes on
writing that compare it tobleeding, because it is like
bleeding on a page. So feel free
Tara Khandelwal (36:55):
to do that.
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
I think honesty is so important.
So I had written a personalessay that got published in soup
magazine, and it was about,basically, like, how is
diagnosed with, like, prediabetes and like, sugar and all
of that, and I publish it. Andthen my dad was like, Oh, why
are you saying all these thingsin public? Yeah. I mean, people
will have objections and stuff.
(37:20):
I think the honesty of it iswhat makes it interesting,
Sanjana Ramachandran (37:22):
right and entertaining. Also, like, I
think if I focus less on thepersonal service and the you
know, narrative making of yourown life and how much that can
benefit you, and more on purely,like, wizardry of sentences and
being entertaining, etc, like, Ithink that's a worthy goal to
strive for. On, it's like,honestly, it's very fun being a
writer for the most part,although it's harrowing for a
(37:45):
lot of it, but the top level,like, when you're done with the
piece, and you, I don't reallyread a lot of my work, but I
think it's, it's strangelybecome in tune with who I am
also, even though, like, like,the way I think, and everything.
So I do feel, like, when I whenI promote it, promote it, etc. I
don't feel squeamish. So I thinkwhen you are true to yourself,
(38:05):
like there's a love of the craftalso that comes in when you're
writing, etc, that you canreally go deep in and try to
understand what makes a goodessay, and that that you will
have your own opinion of it,versus all the craft books like
I have, I would say a lot of myway of coming to write has just
been putting my thoughts down inthe way that my mind is telling
(38:28):
me to I think the more you justJournal, the more you just write
for yourself, the more thesecond part, also the writing
for an audience, you start tomaybe understand what that
involves, what makes somethingentertaining. Um, one thing I
Tara Khandelwal (38:41):
wanted to ask is your journey to getting
published, you know, becauselots of people ask question,
yeah, what is your journey togetting published? And tell me
what the Shashi, I know we'renot talking about brands and
all, but tell me what the Shashisaid would love.
Sanjana Ramachandran (38:53):
Uh, my journey to getting published
was, yeah, I think it's justlike I always knew I had to be,
like, creative, like, creative,creative, not just working with
creative people or managingcreative people, which is what
in my you know, postengineering, post MBA, life. I
was in marketing, which I joinedbecause, like, I took, took up
(39:15):
that field and career pathbecause I knew it was creative.
But, like, marketing is notadvertising. You will not be the
person writing the ads or beingcreative. It's mostly a lot of
project management, gettingthings together and making
things happen. A lot ofanalysis, also, which people
think the job does not involve.
Yeah, so at some point, as Iknew, like I had, as I
understood, that's whatmarketing was, the creative bug,
or like, the feeling of myselfbeing the creative person I
(39:38):
would sort of like, in meetings,be part of where people would be
like, Oh, she has a creativebent, but the actual creative
people are sitting there thatused to really irritate me,
because I am more creative than,like, you know, all of that. So
I just had this need to writeand to be like, the one creating
stories. I was like, I'll help.
(40:00):
Be out in the marketing capacityand do all of these things, but
my secret agenda was also to geta byline there. So in about the
two months of staying there, Idid a lot of work for them on
the marketing front, they werestill like looking at salesy and
advertising led strategies fortheir magazine. But
subscriptions were just poppingoff in the world. At that time,
in mid 2019 the Ken had justsort of started up. So I was
(40:20):
like, maybe you want to pivot tosubscription. So the first month
was about that, but then I wasalso reading Raja Gupta's memo
that had just come out at thattime, and I saw it on somebody's
desk there, and I was like, Whyis this here? And we're like,
maybe doing a piece on it. Yeah,I'm reading it. And she called
me a couple of days later, andshe was like, his launch event
is happening. Do you want to goreport and see if you can come
(40:42):
up with the piece? So I went tothe launch event, I read the
book, and I dug into some past,you know, essays about Raja
Gupta's insider trading scam,and there were a lot of, like,
interesting plot holes, etc,there. So I was like, I can see
a piece forming here. And Ipitched it to them, and they let
me write it, and they carried ita couple of months later. So,
(41:04):
yeah, I mean, you use one bylineto get another byline. I think
52 was the next big by pitch forme. I always had that Sanjana
story in mind. And there werevery few publications who had
that long form thing the way Iwas imagining it, like a very
New Yorker style start from,like, go many levels deep, lot
of analysis. I was reading a lotof I have read a bunch of
(41:26):
narrative non fiction, so Ireally love Tom Wolf, and that
crop of that era of writing fromAmerican journalism, um, so I
pitched it to 52 they kind ofgot the piece, and then they
really bought into it as weworked on the story, and it
turned out to be super viral. Sothen that led to another piece
with 62 so I mean, just like Ithey constantly pitching to
(41:49):
being again in touch with yourideas and your thoughts and
feelings and understanding whatwill fit on what kind of website
and but that is the story of howI got published, and went on
from the book also came. So,like I said, mid 2020 when I was
going through this, likecreative redirection crisis,
where I had to create a lot ofstuff, the book was one of the
(42:12):
ideas that I was focused on. AndI found out about. So the 52
essay happened. I also found outabout South Asia speaks, the
fellowship that I was acceptedto in the 2022 class, and I
pitched the book as a project tothem, like, basically I had, by
then, the synopsis, thequestions, a little bit of the
(42:32):
research, and maybe two chapterslike like the namesake. I had
sort of already written somedrafts of what the book would
look like, and because of thelike, it, followed on the cues
of the namesake. So my mentor atthe fellowship, Sanam Mahar,
who's been an amazing allythrough this journey, she read
that essay. She really liked it.
She took my book as a project,and that's also when I like
(42:54):
that. That's when I startedwriting it more. And then I
found an agent, kanesh Gupta,who we met on Twitter. He also
liked the premise of the book,and he immediately saw, like
what it was going for, and likethe sit with what's been
achieved and other otherwriting, other countries. And it
was a long journey. All of thiswas like eight, nine months
(43:18):
apart each so the fellowship,and then finding the agent, and
then seven months after that, wepitched it to a bunch of
publishers. We had likedifferent options, and Alice was
the best to go with. And thenthe rest, like 80% of the book
was left to right at that point.
So I then, then there was thistime I started writing the most.
(43:39):
So over this three, three yearjourney where there was some
milestones that regard wereregarding the book. A lot of it
was also just publishing normalstuff. But after I got the
publisher, I wrote the remaining80, 90% of the book over eight
or nine months, then they editedit for six months or so. And and
(44:00):
coming to your next question,well, I just told Ganesh one day
that, like, I want more helpwith everything else. I've spent
a lot of time and my whole lifewriting this, but I need to make
this, you know what it is. Andso we made, I made this list of
like, everybody who I thoughtwould be a good reader or
reviewer of the blob, andincluded many names, because
(44:20):
these are all busy people, and Iknew they would be many of you
get many no's. But if we reachedout to say 2030 people, maybe
five would say yes. So Shashi,Thabo was one of them. We had,
like a lot of other names in thelist, and a lot of the other
blurbs that we have are also, Ithink, really cool. So yeah, the
short story is, operationally, ii as a marketing brain, I knew
(44:41):
exactly what all you could do tomake something a product. I
pushed some people to help meget it. And the long story is,
I've been at this for a fewyears now. I had the Amit Verma
podcast a couple of months ago.
I have like these bylines, etc.
So I mean, if you keep at it,and you keep at your craft, and
you're, you know. It'll getthere basically. Oh,
Tara Khandelwal (45:02):
that's really cool. I think it'll be very
inspiring for anyone listeningout there who wants to get
published. What is next for you?
What are you working on next? I
Sanjana Ramachandran (45:13):
am working, and I think I'm still
working on the book. It's like,it's really crazy to me to be it
in flesh and blood. I've almostnot been like when I see it, I
just like, I'm very overwhelmedbecause I'm like, should I made
this? And now I have to, like,read it and live up to it, and
I'm, surprisingly, I'm not,like, there are the critical
thoughts and the things that Ithink would be better, they've
kind of dimmed a bit, becausethere's like, this overwhelming
(45:36):
feeling of, like, genuineappreciation and wonder that
this has happened at all. So I'mgoing to focus on getting this
out there a lot. And I have afew ideas on what I might do
next. There's a newsletterseries brewing in my mind, more
business writing, because that'swhat I did for the ken but
(45:58):
hopefully something like, yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (46:00):
something very much looking forward to it,
because I really like these kindof books. You know, I love non
fiction. And another bookrecommendation I have, I think
many of our listeners arealready know of it is
desperately seeking Shah Rukh,which I think was also really
interesting book and made methink about how I am,
Sanjana Ramachandran (46:22):
the way I am, but you know, like I've also
had my eyes on fiction for abit, yeah, fiction like this,
again, like hyper lucidprotagonist going through life
feeling shocked. I would
Tara Khandelwal (46:36):
love to read that as well. Thank
Unknown (46:38):
you so much. Yeah, this was really fun.
Tara Khandelwal (46:41):
Hope you enjoyed this episode of Books
and Beyond with bound.
Michelle D'costa (46:45):
This podcast is created by bound, a company
that helps you grow throughstories. Find us at bound India
on all social media platforms.
Tara Khandelwal (46:54):
Tune in every Wednesday as we peek into the
lives and minds of somebrilliant authors from India and
South Asia the.
Un Welcome to Books and Beyond. With bound I'm
Tara Khandelwal and I'm Michelled'cota, in this podcast, we talk
to India's finest authors
Michelle D'costa (00:11):
and uncover the stories behind the best
written book and
Tara Khandelwal (00:15):
dissect how these books shape our lives and
worldviews today. So
Michelle D'costa (00:20):
let's dive in.
Tara Khandelwal (00:23):
Today, I'm doing something I absolutely
love, rewinding to the glorious90s. Think floppy disk phantom
cigarettes and secret diariestucked under pillows. But more
than nostalgia, I'm also asking,How did growing up in the 90s
shape who I am today. And toexplore this question, I'm
joined by Sanjana Ramachandran.
She's an essayist, comic and nowDebbie, author of famous last
(00:45):
questions. I really like thisbook because it's part memoir,
part cultural deep dive, and itbrilliantly dissects the Indian
millennial identity. It unpackshow the India we grew up in,
those very specific do's anddon'ts the pop culture the
unspoken rules has shaped oursense of self, and we
Millennials are full ofcontradictions. We're modern but
(01:06):
traditional, self aware butconfused, successful but deeply
anxious. Even Shashi Tharoor hascalled this book The defining
book for millennials. So as amillennial myself, I found it
deeply relatable, and can't waitto get into the questions that
you ask in this book. Welcome.
Thank
Sanjana Ramachandran (01:25):
you, Dara, I'm very excited to be here and
talk about the book with someonewho read it and seems to relate
it to it and understood it. So,yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (01:32):
glad, yeah. I related to it a lot, you know.
And I really liked that thisbook is a mix of personal and
then, of course, you add in alot of research to qualify why
we think the way we do. So Iwanted to know what was the
starting point. Let's go back tothe beginning. What was the
starting point of writing thisbook? At what and at what point
did you know? Okay, this isn'tjust my story, but it's a story
(01:54):
that connects to these biggerconversations around class,
caste, technology.
Sanjana Ramachandran (01:59):
I think the starting point was, as I
mentioned earlier in the firstpage of the book, it was
something that the way my lifeunfolding made me think was the
reason for it, like there were alot of extreme events through my
childhood and teenage years thatmade me feel like all of this
can only happen to someone whoselife is meant to be a story.
Otherwise it's not. It's notnormal. But that was the seed
(02:22):
for like me, wanting to makeeverything that happens to me
and around me some kind of storywhich is not necessarily
healthy, because you're alwaysthen, I mean, subconsciously,
sometimes seeking. And those arethings I'm coming down with in
relative but I would say that'swhen it really started, long
ago, and how the current shapeand form it took, I think there
was a very definitive moment in2020, right through the
(02:45):
lockdowns, when it's funny this,I was seeing this boy, entirely
digitally, like we'd never met.
He was an old friend. Wehappened to chat, you know, like
phone, video call and like, wejust really hit it off. He was
in another country, and soon wefound that like we were dating,
and one of the books he gave mein the six months that
relationship lasted throughwhich we never actually saw each
(03:08):
other face to face, and plentyof new digital territories were
explored. He gave me this bookcalled Trick mirror by GIA
Tolentino, which I felt was,like, very, very relatable to me
as a like, that's a book by awhite woman, and I don't know,
it's probably problematic to sayI related to it in some ways,
but I did because it's and Ifound that many people might see
herself themselves in her story,because she talks about growing
(03:31):
up with the internet, and inIndia, growing up with the
internet, that just took me backto how fragmented I started to
become right back then. Likethere were, intuitively, I was
like, my parents wouldn't liketo see this. So I need to, like,
if I'm being on Facebook, then Ineed to like, make sure they
don't see that content. Or,like, we didn't have the word
content that time. So that thatbook gave me a sort of frame for
(03:52):
the way I was thinking about mylife. Then I also, I mean, tried
different forms. Like you said,I had tried to joke about my
life. I wrote some otherscreenplays and essays took off
because, like, my work with 52kind of gave me that structure
that the book expands on andlike goes beyond now, but just
basically, like, start jumpingfrom the personal to the
(04:14):
societal to reportage andresearch. That's kind of what I
did with the namesakes. One ofmy essays for 52 which explored
the story of how I got my nameSanjana. And it turned out like
I knew there were like, one ortwo or three other people like
me, and that's what the firstdraft of that story took like.
Here's why my name is Sanjana.
Here's what my parents werethinking. Here are all the
(04:35):
aspirations and meanings. Andyou know what research says
about baby names and success andall of that? And then Supriya
and I are the editor of 52 inthe second draft, said, I'm
pretty sure like this, why don'twe just put out a call on
Twitter and see how many people?
And then, like, I spoke to like,4550 people for that story. And
then that became so through likethat, I got like this formula,
the craft of like, how, how doyou like, try to find and my
(04:56):
marketing background alsohelped, because it's a lot of
like. Consumer Psychology andlike, you know, what is one
thing really about you? Or is itabout like, there's a
methodology to finding thatstuff out? So I yeah, I've been
really interested in this way ofunderstanding and analyzing the
world. It's time consuming. It'slong form, but I think it does
give you more insight than a lotof things that we gravitate
(05:17):
towards today. So that's, I hopeanswered your question, yeah.
Tara Khandelwal (05:21):
And actually read the Sanjana after when it
came out. Really, really enjoyedit as well. So I really like the
beginning of the story, becauseit starts with, you know, the
scene of your expulsion, andsomeone carrying you home drunk.
And then you know your Aman,your upper I mean, I can only
imagine whatever I'm like inperson, and then we've always,
(05:45):
you know, that led you to havethis sort of achievement
complex, and we've already seenthese classic hippie films,
right where the rebellious kidgets tame and they turn into an
obedient adult. And in yourcase, it feels like the
opposite, like you did all thethings that expected of you. You
studied engineering and BITSPilani. You worked you and iIm.
You worked in marketing, chem,but on your own terms and and
(06:10):
you also, you know, at one pointwe're going to marry the
conventional, you know, yeah, gosit. And now you're out here
writing essays and publishing anovel and sort of turning that
on, on its head. So I reallywanted to speak a little bit
more about that.
Sanjana Ramachandran (06:23):
Yeah. I think the the deeper part of
that split, like, yes, it makesyou, I think even people without
that kind of plot point eventwhere you get expelled, and
therefore that, like, gives yousome instinctual, major reason
to prove yourself and correct,you know, some mistakes. I think
India is like a very competitivecountry. From the start, I was
(06:45):
chatting about this with somefriends, our nervous systems are
probably more on edge than, youknow, first world countries,
because, like, right from theget go, we're told that, you
know, it's do or die, like,there's just one or two or 10%
of you that that has a life thatwe call making it and so that
you everybody's just, like,focused on, you know, making it
(07:05):
and survival is the biggestthing. And if you look at even
how how crowded our roads areand how crowded our houses and
rooms are, like, there's notenough space, so we're, like,
constantly fighting forresources, and it feels very
zero sum in our heads from theget go, where, like, my success
will come at the cost of yours.
I feel like that's ingrained inand I talk about this in chapter
two, that then that my successat the cost of yours also is how
(07:26):
how identity starts to come intothe picture. Because you as this
identity have certainopportunities, and then there
are other identities that peoplesay are marginalized and, you
know, oppressed, so they'regoing to be given points, but to
the dominant identity that'svery threatening. So I feel like
everybody in India has thisachievement complex, and India
as a nation has this achievementcomplex because we were
(07:48):
plundered and colonized like nottoo long ago, two to three
generations ago. So I feel likeeveryone's always trying to
prove they're Indian, and what.
What does it really mean to belike as Indian as anybody else,
and then India itself is, likethis major country. Everything
seems to, like, tie back to anachievement in AI. Everything's
like, you know, will India getthere? So a lot of like
(08:09):
nationalism and like selfactualization that I think needs
to happen for all of us that areindividual and cultural levels.
I feel like, even though I'vebecome aware that I had this
complex that drove me to alwayspush myself, even when I may not
have cared, like, I don't evenknow, do I care or do I not
care? I just have to do itanyway, like we're all just in
that go mind.
Tara Khandelwal (08:27):
I think I very much relate to that as well.
Because obviously, you know, mycareer path is not anything
linear, but even within, youknow, non linear parts you
obviously expected to be sort oflike what you said top of the
field, you know, yeah,
Sanjana Ramachandran (08:40):
yeah.
Yeah. Like, for example, eventhough I'm pursuing what I think
is me now there's, there's stillthe voice of other people and
dates and how they expect awriter's life to look like. So I
have this friend who will belike, you know, you should do
these things and you'll get morefollowers. And I'm like, that's
not my style at all. Like, Idon't imagine myself creating
like, random controversies toget attention, like I might do
(09:02):
reason, like, I'll do all ofthat, but and then, you know,
it's only a big book. If it'slike, you know, Shashi Tharoor
has to endorse it for it to bean achievement. You aren't just
going to read it and, like,appreciate it for what it is.
And that's fair, because we'reliving in a very saturated
environment. But it does exist,and it does like, Penguin has to
be the publisher for my familyto get it. Otherwise she just
quit her job and she was sittingat home somewhere, which is not
(09:23):
true, even though we'rerecording this podcast at home.
But like,
Tara Khandelwal (09:28):
we're very brand conscious as Indians, and
we have to sort of prove, youknow, that we have worked with
the brands that we associatedwith. I think
Sanjana Ramachandran (09:36):
it's interesting because, like, if
you feel like you don't have,like, you have a point to prove,
the earliest way people aregoing to reach out is, like, by
associating with things thatalready have that worth in the
world's eyes. So brands arelike, one of the first like, so
the influx of brands and theopportunities that gave us to
like, sort of demarcate where weare on the class ladder and
like, what kind of people weare. And I think the interesting
(09:58):
thing about like, you know.
Dalits owning an iPhone, or,like, luxury bags, wearing
suits, etc, like thecapitalistic form of, like,
resistance against what isconsidered to be appropriate for
marginalized costs, like thatthat also exists. Another thing
Tara Khandelwal (10:14):
I liked about the book is, you know, the sense
of contradiction and cognitivedissonance, which we spoke about
earlier. I think there's areally large sense of self
awareness. And I think myfavorite character was the one
about the work chapter, justbecause for me, it was also very
relatable. You know, nobody inmy family knows what I do, and
it's very hard to explain it tothem. I also talk about, you
(10:36):
know, the broader themes of thesystems of capitalism. And I
like the paradox that you pose.
You say you're both antiestablishment and not you're
within the system because youwant a nice life, yet you
understand its drawbacks. And Ilike that sense of contradiction
that was there in not only thischapter, but even in, for
example, the chapter about body,right? Because you recognize
that you know growing up, Iremember Kareena Kapoor size
(10:58):
zero, but then you say, yet youcare about your looks. So can
you talk more about thatcontradiction?
Sanjana Ramachandran (11:06):
Yeah, I feel like any kind of argument
that links, not just withoutcapitalism, but in general, any
kind of argument that's like,it's 100% this and a 0% the
opposite, like, it doesn't dojustice to how we as human
beings feel, where we canactually have, we can feel two
different ways about the samething, and we can be like I, and
that's that's true of people. Solike, I like this about certain
(11:27):
people. I love them overall, butI hate certain characteristics,
but I will keep them as myfriend as long as they treat me
well, you know, so because Ithink that's what, that's what
it means to be like acomplicated and, you know,
nuanced person, instead ofbecause if you're more wedded to
an ideology than the realitythat you're in, I think that's
when you become kind of rabidand fetal whether you left us or
(11:48):
right is, I think, like, ifyou're only because no ideology
is right 100% of the time, butyou are invested in seeing and
making it right 100% of thetime, which means you're, like,
going to be even more at oddswith yourself than, I think, a
person who's aware that I'm forsome things and for other
things, but I can't live outthose values and ideas all the
time. It's the best that I cando. And I actually feel like
being in the middle has helpedme have, I don't know, not more
(12:11):
impact, but a decent amount ofimpact. And I would like there's
also, I mean, many theories tosay that in a study of feminist
movements, I think Adam Grantwrote that the ones who were
moderate kind of paved the wayfor radicals to actualize their
you know what they wanted to butI think more more practically
and in my life, I feel like, forexample, I've been I've worked
(12:32):
at a brand where I wrote aboutcaste in Indian marketing
sometime back, and that piecethen became like something that
People in my university used forresearch and, like, studying ads
further, and that wasn't adiscourse about, like, how you
can respectfully and useadvertising as a tool to raise
awareness, or, like, you know,push back, create resistance on
these things, because it's like,honestly, I mean, capitalism
(12:55):
being like, we've seen whathappens to every Pride Month. So
it's not necessarily going to bemeaningful, but at least it
sparked that thought. And sincethen, like, you know, like,
there was a brand that I wasworking with that wanted to use
Swami as a brand mascot, and Iwas like, that's very
brahminical and probablyexclusionary. And even though it
would talk to your PG of, youknow, elite Indians, it, it
(13:17):
would not be, quote, unquote,inclusive and appropriate. I
think so. I think there's a lotyou can achieve by having the
awareness and, you know, knowingthe system's drawbacks, and then
being in the system, because youcan, like, incrementally,
marginally, like, say the thingsthat you think should happen,
and make that change happen.
Instead of being like, thesepeople suck, and everything
(13:37):
about this sucks. And I'm goingto be in believing this ideology
that actually has no basis in,you know, it's all theory. Like
some of, some of what I hearpeople is just all theory. Like,
how are you going to, like, Imean, to each their own, but
this is what I've made my peacewith. So I feel like that
dissonance exists, continues toexist. I think it will always
exist for me, Herman Melville,you know, apparently. So just a
(13:59):
few 1000 copies with Moby Dickin his lifetime. And most of
these names that we reviewKafka, you know, they all had
office jobs, and they were allkind of not really well known in
their lifetimes, but they wererecognized by the institutions,
etc, later on. But like, how arewe going to not have these? You
know, your foot in theestablishment, even if you're
(14:19):
not working in a job like youwill brush against it. You will
buy a bottle of this Larry. Youwill have to come to terms with
the fact that this is thesystem. So I think instead of
hating it, you need to also seeits merits. And there are there
are merits, like I mentioned inchapter five and six, like the
work chapter and in the bodychapter. I think the merits are
less because capitalism neverwill let you feel okay about how
(14:41):
you look. But at least in thework chapter, there is like it's
unfair, there's a lot ofinequality, but advancement is
possible. The better life ispossible. And if you are
resenting people who have betterlives than you, know there's
something you can do about that,like there is some even though
it's not really fair, andthere'll be a lot of roadblocks
you get, even as a woman, evenas a martial. Nice caste or
religion, but you can try. Sothere are merits, and those,
(15:03):
those merits have helped me andmy mother and the women I know,
escape some horrible situations.
So I don't think it's fair toit's completely hated, but it's
okay to know that these arethese things are not okay. And I
think that opens a room fordiscussion, like, for example,
startups, if you look at it, thecommunist ideal is, I think,
very vague and lose analogies,if I'm permitted to make. But
(15:26):
like, you know, the whole theoryof Marxism is that you're
alienated from the fruits ofyour labor, if I'm and that
causes like whatever self isalienated from the fruit of its
labor. But if you look at it instartups, the model is that
you're given a percentage ofownership, and then you are all
rallying around that, and youare like, I think it is, like a
fair model that is, is like,keeps, keeps you proportional to
(15:49):
what you're investing. And so Idon't know a lot of it seems to
I don't, maybe I don'tunderstand it fully, but there
are ways in which you can createsystems that are at least fair
in themselves. I agree, because
Tara Khandelwal (16:00):
that's when you can also have conversation,
because we are livingcontradictions, right? Like, I
know this a lot as well, when itcomes to work and privilege,
also, you know, when it comes toclimate change, you know, how
many products can I actuallybuy? What? What is the impact
that I can do, even if I live,you know, 100% in line with, you
(16:21):
know, everything. It's not goingto make an impact when it's not
possible. So you have to sort ofbe within the system, as you
said, and also think about thecontribution that you can make
in a in a way that you can alsolive your daily life and, you
know, enjoy it. So I think,absolutely, I
Sanjana Ramachandran (16:37):
think a lot of privilege, and that's
been the norm, I think, for thelast few years of identity
politics, or whenever the socialjustice thing became really,
it's like, we love to liverather comfortable lives and
then feel really guilty about itand be like, you know, but we
consume so much. I'm going to belike, buying everything at like,
a locally sourced, organicthing, and like those, you don't
(16:58):
even know what those food chainlike you are being anti
consumers in the most consumerspossible way, because there's a
lot of stuff targeted to peoplelike you to make you feel better
about your place in the economythat is still part of that
economy. So and I've also like,I feel like, personally,
sometimes those people, the veryrighteous people who are like,
judging their every action andmaking these decisions to fit
(17:19):
like, feel less guilty, likethey're sometimes the most
annoying people to be around.
You know, they're constantlycorrecting. You know, this is
like, you know, this has, like,sulfate or whatever, and I don't
know, but I just feel like Ican't be myself all the time
around, like i There are partsof me and like, if I were to,
like, completely not even try tobe correct, or thinking about
the rest of the population inthis like, I think, if it going
(17:40):
back to that survival thing, andthis is like, a lot of the
comforts that we're all tastingare for the first time, and
nobody is going to like, if youhave truly suffered, you won't
take it for granted. Like, ifyou have been in a difficult
spot in your life, and you reacha place of comfort and stability
and the structure that theestablishment, whatever system
can be with all of its flaws,with all of its micro traumas
(18:01):
and sexism and misogyny andcasteism, you will still value
the comfort and the safety ofliving in an apartment and like
having a roof above your headand three meals. Like why all of
that is part of that samesystem. For example, I had a
friend who was like, climatechange is actually good in some
parts of the world, betweenwaning more and it's having all
of these. So, I mean, you know,if you look at it as a system
(18:24):
level, it's very uneducated alsoto say that it's only bad
because, like at a largesystemic level, things are going
to have such complex effectsthat if you're going to say
something is good or bad, andgive me, like, a proper analysis
of it, but on the face of it, tome, as a layman, most things are
good and bad.
Tara Khandelwal (18:41):
100% agree with that. I feel like we have so
many opinions, but most of themare not packed with research. I
also want to talk about ourrelationship with parents,
because that is something thatis a very sort of millennial
thing, because we're constantlystuck between generations,
right? We are told to fit intothese family and societal
expectations, and then we'resurrounded by the younger
(19:03):
generations who maybe are morein touch with identities. And
so, you know, you talked aboutin the book how we're
chameleons. You know, we'replaying the good child friend.
We have these masks on all thetime. And you know, also the
question of morality, like,what's a good Indian girl?
What's not all of those thingsare things that when you're
(19:25):
growing up, to grapple withthose issues. So I just wanted
to ask a little bit more ofthat. And did you uncover any
new aspects of identity when youwere writing? Yeah,
Sanjana Ramachandran (19:34):
I think a lot of it was started by a need
to be honest at home about allthe ways in which I'd failed
them, but they didn't know aboutit, because I had this perfect
front and exterior and mask athome. I felt like I had to, you
know, create things and putmyself out there, but I was
like, wrapped with fear. Becausehow will I do that if the people
I'm hiding from are, like, rightaround me? So how am I gonna,
(19:55):
like, be myself on a largerstage? If, like, I can't even be
myself at home, so I. Then likethat. If anyone's read the book,
they'll see that they're veryintertwined, that it was only
this effect, like standing up toanything that's not that's not
you, and then that just makesthe rest of your life align. And
then the people who stay, theystay, and it's great. And the
people who don't, it sucks, andit really hurts, but you find a
(20:17):
way to make peace within and gotto a point where, like, I think
I always try to spare my parentsa lot of my feelings, because,
well, they are harsh, like theysome of them are like, and I
think it's okay, because, like,we also have this very black and
white thinking in India. I thinkyou can see it in a lot of the
way media discourse andreactions play out, like when
(20:37):
the body I said that, you know,kind of inanely disgusting
question about parents. It'salso a borrowed comic motive,
and like, in reacting to that,people were like, the fuck. And
also, you know, politicianscoming after him and like, why
is it? Why is the question,like, if I talk about my parents
(20:58):
in a slightly critical way, I'msure there's a crop of people
who'll be like, they're yourparent. They did everything for
you. And so how can you evencriticize them? And I'm like,
you can criticize anything likeanything with a healthy ego. You
can be like, this was good, thiswas bad. Here's what might, you
know, change things. But I thinkit's only when you you equate
any criticism to hatred, or, youknow, absolute disrespect that
(21:19):
means that there's somethingculturally wrong. There's like,
a complex there, like, we can'tstand criticism about certain
things. That means that we'renot able to see that things are
not zero or one. There's like, asheet of, you know, yes, they
did all of those things, andyes, I'm, like, probably going
to be indebted to them for therest of my life or lifetimes.
But they did also hurt me, andthey did also stifle me in
(21:41):
certain ways, and they they didthese things that have not
helped me. You know, in the bestWhy can't I talk about these
things? So I feel like did getto a point in my myself, at home
as well, where I was like, Ineed to be able to say this. And
I see examples of betterrelationships in media all the
time. So what is the big deal?
And it did, even though I hadcome to that realization, there
was a lot of like, difficulty inbeing honest with them, because
(22:04):
they're, like, very entrenchedin their own point of view and
what they think you should be.
So I mean, it was many repeatedpushbacks. And then I think this
chapter six talks about this oneepisode or mental breakdown
where I was just like, I had tobe honest, like, the pressure
and your own problems becomingmy problems, lack of boundaries,
(22:25):
and how I've had to always bethere for myself because I can't
even be myself at home. All ofthat came out, and I mean, my
mom's really changed since then.
I have to give her a shout outif she ever ends up listening to
this or reading the book in itsentirety. Honestly, I hope they
don't. It was not for themanyway, and things are fine now,
but, yeah, my mom's become afriend like she knew. She
(22:46):
understood that in standing upfor her, and, you know, the
history that we had, I lost alot of myself. And so she's
made, she's gone above, andshe's never like, sort of lacked
in the discipline and the dutiesof a parent, right? She's like,
not unlike, you know, fathers,Indian fathers, they should
never drop the ball. Superresponsible. It's only the
emotional part where she's,like, learned to become a
(23:08):
friend. I think, yeah, it ishard. Like you said, like, so
what is it like for you with theparents thing? Yeah, actually,
Tara Khandelwal (23:18):
I had a very different experience. I have a
lot of friends who, you know,parents put a lot of pressure on
them in terms of, like, moralityand things like that. My parents
actually grew up drinking,smoking, partying, so I actually
rebelled the other way, becausewhen I was growing up, I saw my
friend's parents being very,sort of strict, and my parents
(23:39):
were all my my dad is sort oflike the black sheep family, and
was very rebellious for histime. I went the other way. And
I went, like, very, like, allgirls, good girl, like, smoking
is bad. I will never go to anight club. I will never, like,
do anything, you know, all ofthat. And like, total, like, you
know, that way. And then Iactually, I then in my like 20s,
(24:02):
like, okay, you know what? Like,this is a reaction to that. So
it was a very differentexperience. I think I'm
interesting as well. Yeah,
Sanjana Ramachandran (24:10):
yeah. I think human beings are dumb,
yeah. Basically, our psyche isso rooted in, like, this
subconscious rebellion, plus,you know, conforming worship
and, like, you know, dislikeauthority issues and all of
that. Like, it's interesting.
Like, I think, like that. Theother reason I don't want any,
like, my parents to be affectedby the book in any way, is just
see it as, like, your child hasjust processed some things, and
(24:32):
don't take it too personally,because, anyway, like, you're
not taking it too personally. Soit's fine. But like, yeah, it's
just that. I think there's a wayin which children will always
get fucked up by their parents.
And
Tara Khandelwal (24:44):
I just want to say that you can,
Sanjana Ramachandran (24:47):
yeah, like, even if you give kids the
most perfect parenthood, theywill feel stifled by it. They'll
want to rebel in their own way.
It's just like a part of growingup where you're like these
people who are like everythingto you you're so sad, like, for
which. Child psychologically,the parent triggers are God
triggers. So if they're thewhole world, so the smallest
you're constantly reading intothings as as a kid. So even
things that they are doing like,as a normal, stressed out adult,
(25:09):
who has probably many, you know,things to manage, you may just
be like, I don't know, to somequestion, but then that child is
going to be like, she brushed meoff and like, you know, her hand
was dismissive and it means shehates me. I'm not worthy, and
that narrative is thenconstantly looking for
affirmation from what isactually one innocent moment. So
I think even with parents whoare, like, educated about the
(25:33):
emotional worlds of their kids,there is the way you will fuck
them up, which is why I lovethat Philip Larkin poem that I
put it in the book also, whichis, they fuck you up your mom
and dad, and they pass them onto you so you can fuck your own
kids up too. Like, it's, it'scycle of life, I think,
Tara Khandelwal (25:52):
yeah, it's so weird, and then you have to come
to terms with it. I was justreading this book called The
anxious generation. Interesting.
Yeah, okay. And it said that,oh, you know, your parents, you
know, like a healthy amount ofneglect is really good for you,
because then what happens is youget into a mode. You get into a
exploring mode, rather than ifyou're always portal, then you
defend more. And I was like, Oh,my parents really like them.
(26:16):
Probably did a very good job,because I was always like, when
I have a kid, I'm going to,like, be this, you know, like,
super mom and, you know,whatever. And then I was like,
you know, what, like, a goodamount of neglect, I was like,
probably has shaped me the waythat I am today, and I actually
appreciate that, you know. Soyou do learn, sort of, you know,
(26:38):
and come to terms with thethings that your parents did.
And I like that about your bookas well. So I wanted to ask, you
know, what do you want theaudience to get out of the book?
Because I really like thesections on, you know, women,
women at work, marriage, dating,all of that. So Is it primarily
a audience that is women? Whatabout a male audience?
Sanjana Ramachandran (27:02):
No, actually, that would not serve
my purpose if only women relatedto it. And that's not the point.
Also, I think the point of howsuffering is is not although,
yes, the narrative in identitypolitics is that these
identities have suffered, andthere's a lot of trauma from the
oppressed and oppressoridentity. A lot of it is also
about how Nobody escapes frommen women. And so even even
(27:25):
through the story of explaininghow female trauma occurs in
patriarchal family systems, theending of Chapter Six is about
how, actually the man who'ssupposed to benefit from these
patriarchal is also kind ofmiserable. So it's, it's, it's
basically like the structure ofhuman life is suffering various
kinds of suffering, and evenwhen everything's okay, there's
(27:47):
like, a bit of top layer ofsuffering that you can't get rid
of, like, no matter what's goingon. I think the central message
and the takeaway of the book isto, like, find your spiritual
inner center, because withoutthat, like, it's going to be
very hard to withstand the worldand how much there is to process
that only keeps increasing. Ithink the point of the book is
(28:08):
to find a way to be engagedthat's authentic to yourself and
genuinely like a scientific wayto be like, This is me and this
is not me. And I think that'swhat Vipassana gave me, and I,
I've been practicing for threeyears in in my own way, which is
which involves having a normallife again, like I do go out, I
(28:28):
still party and but I still comeback. And so that method of
knowing what is me and like thisconstant self scanning that
helps you know what reaction theworld is causing in you and what
you feel about those things, andthen being conscious about your
decisions and the way you showup to things in your life. I
think, yeah, it's basically abook about becoming conscious.
(28:48):
If I had to say that's like onecentral message and something
that is truly universal. I don'tknow if you've gotten to the
Epilog, but I've kind of tracedback the lineage of why I told
the story in this way, and itwas kind of cosmic things
interlinking for me when Ipicked up Siddhartha at some
point, I was towards the end ofwriting the book. I picked up
(29:09):
Siddhartha by Herman essayagain, and I I happened to,
like, when I read it this time,I was like, Oh, this is what the
book is about. And, like,there's so many parallels that I
when I read about how that bookcame out to be it's like, he
also undergoes like this. Idon't know if it's sparked by
trauma and difficulty, but he, Ithink it's a, it's an archetypal
journey that humans go throughin their could be mid 20s, late
(29:31):
20s, late 30s. Whenever thatinflection point occurs, they
are like, what is the meaning ofall this? And what is, what is
my place here? And how do I knowwhat that is? And sodharta goes
on this, like, you know,spiritual journey. He becomes
monkish, and he does that for afew years, and he's, you know,
stays away from that. And Ithere's like, this whole, that's
(29:52):
the end of seeking is also,like, a part of the spiritual
journey. So I feel like therewas that in in me, coming with
this, like. Burning me to findout why my life had been the way
it was. How do I heal from allthese things and truly become
myself? That all led to a seriesof experiences and questions
about becoming more consciousand then realizing even all the
questions are kind of, you know,they dissolve and you're left
(30:15):
with, like, some kind ofacceptance or understanding of
all these contradictions, allthe chaos, and yet very rooted
in something that's true to you.
So I would say that would that,I hope, would be the central
takeaway for anyone reading thebook, and it had to be specific
to my experience as a woman, sothat the specific shedding the
universal, so that both areconvincing, right? Because if I
just make it universal withouthaving the experience, it's not
(30:36):
real. But I think there is a wayin which, even if you read this,
it, parts of it are likespecific to womanhood. The
equivalent of manhood shouldstand out immediately because,
because this is happening towomen in a certain way, this is
what it's manifestation isinside me as a man, that maybe
I've been in condition to not becomfortable with my femininity.
(30:56):
Maybe I've not allowed myselfto, you know, fully not live up
to these ideals of what manhoodis. And that, if that, if it
sparks that insight and helpspeople challenge these
conditionings, I think thatwould be great, yeah.
Tara Khandelwal (31:10):
Oh, that makes sense. And I also like the way
that the book is structured,because every chapter is a
question. So you have, you know,one of the questions that I
really like is, will you everget married before I die?
Sanjana Ramachandran (31:19):
Yeah?
Which is so literal, yeah. Imean, I got made fun of it by
not even younger. I just alsowant to come back to the
millennial yeah question at somepoint. But yeah, like, what? You
didn't make everything aboutbeing in your 30s. And I was
like, Yeah, man. Like, I mean,it is, it is difficult my
grandmother to, like, last, Ithink it was my birthday, like,
recently, again, she was like,why don't you get married? I'm
(31:41):
going to die soon. And thistime, finally, after 656, years
of being, starting everyconversation the same way, I was
like, Maybe you should die. Youknow you should, maybe you
should. Like, I just lost it.
And I don't endorse thisbehavior. I don't endorse that
feeling, but I it just came out.
And I was like, Yeah, I meanthat that question is very
literal, like, get marriedbefore I die? Like, that's what
(32:02):
has been thrown at people. And Iknow I'm not alone, but like, a
lot of people, just like, getmarried or I'm going to die
soon. Like, it's just, like,very revealing of how shocking
that decision is expected to bestructured. So what if I find
find a lot of my life at 3738 Imean, very unlikely the way it's
going, but if it's, if that'sthe right time for me, then
that's the right time for me.
I'm not going to rush into it,because you're going to, in your
(32:24):
own words, die like,
Tara Khandelwal (32:27):
yeah, no, it is. It is funny. I think, like,
that's something that everyonerelates to grandparents and
things like that. That's like,the first topic of conversation
and but, yeah, I like thestructure of the book, and
within each chapter, I like howthe essays are very free
flowing. And there's a lot ofinformation, you know, and you
go, sort of, there's no, sortof, like, you go from one topic
(32:50):
to another. So can you talk alittle bit more about how you
constructed each essay? My mind,they're super
Sanjana Ramachandra (32:55):
structured.
I'm a very structured person. SoI have, like, when I start
writing, I usually have a map ofall the information I want to
join. So there's like, theselong docs with the flow, as I
call it, with the long docsbefore that were the research
and where every dump ofeverything that needs to come
together in that particularthing, and then before that, the
master doc on the book. So for aChapter, there's a lot of
(33:18):
reading around that. Like, Ithink for the it was in Jan this
year that I fully read a bookfor the first time in a long
time for leisure. I read Fiestaby Ernest Hemingway. But before
that, everything you knowconsciously unconscious is
always connecting back to thosequestions that you are trying to
answer and writing. So there wasa lot of information gathering
in every talk about everychapter, and a kind of order
(33:40):
that I then put to it that Iwant to start with the story,
connect to this point, connectto this that that was there, and
then there is improvisation thathappens along the way. So I'd
say like 80% of it is planned,and then 20% you do surprise
yourself in the things that cometo you while writing in the form
you give it. So that stream ofconsciousness bit also came up
in in chapter one a lot, becausebefore I wrote that, I could not
(34:00):
start with it was actually kindof quite linear in its own like,
because, if you notice, theorder of the questions is also
kind of chronological, or kindof like, first I dealt with
this, and then I dealt withthis, and then this, and now
finally I'm here so there. AndI'm a huge fan of linearity,
like, as a story, like, yeah,it's kind of traditional, but I
think it's a really good way tokeep I'm hooked when a narrative
(34:24):
is linear, because I'm like,What's going to happen next and
what's going to happen next? So,yeah, that was, that was what
went into, hopefully, the freeflowing. This is then, like,
kind of architected, but alsoimprovised, very
Tara Khandelwal (34:39):
organic, yeah.
And also wanted to ask, youknow, what goes into making good
personal essay? Because I seemore and more people wanting to
write about their lives. So howdid you do it in a way that is
interesting to a reader andadding, you know, some value,
like, what are some tips? Imean, personal essays
Sanjana Ramachandran (34:56):
are great.
And the first I read a lot ofDavid. Sadhas when I was turning
2122 it's also when I startedjournaling on a daily basis. So
I think personal essays I'd haveto prepare for, like a workshop
or something on this. I think ifI'm to give, like a properly,
accurate answer. But a fewthings, I think, is to actually
be honest. The harder part if,if you're a good writer, the
(35:20):
hardest part, I think, is notthe sentence or the craft of
putting a sentence together, butactually being in touch with
your feelings and all so all ofthe things that people are
afraid to say, like theirritations we've had at work or
somebody said something thatrubbed you off the wrong way. I
mean, these are things that Ithink we mostly try to shove and
act like they don't happen to usor we're unaffected by but if
(35:41):
you're in touch with thoseemotions, those difficult
emotions, that's, I think, thoseare the scenes for good essays,
like a conflict, or some, orsome, some, you know, difficult
feeling, and you want to traceback its roots and examine all
of its like history, itscontours. So I think it has to
be rooted in emotional honesty.
(36:02):
It has to be rooted in somethinginteresting and unusual and
difficult, maybe. And I thinkthey are a great means of, like,
giving your like honoring yourlife more than like. I think a
lot of what I'm grappling withright now the book comes out, is
like, there's some people,again, like I said, right? It's,
is it, is it by this? Or howmany copies is it going to sell?
(36:22):
Or has it by like penguin this?
That is the external expectationof of what writers should be, or
writing should be to you. Butfor most, I think it's a way of
knowing yourself andunderstanding it, and making
your life entertaining in someway and therefore bearable to
you. So I'd say I read a lot, bein touch with your feelings, and
do not shy away from them, andbe honest in all their
(36:44):
difficulty. And I love all themetaphors on the quotes on
writing that compare it tobleeding, because it is like
bleeding on a page. So feel free
Tara Khandelwal (36:55):
to do that.
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
I think honesty is so important.
So I had written a personalessay that got published in soup
magazine, and it was about,basically, like, how is
diagnosed with, like, prediabetes and like, sugar and all
of that, and I publish it. Andthen my dad was like, Oh, why
are you saying all these thingsin public? Yeah. I mean, people
will have objections and stuff.
(37:20):
I think the honesty of it iswhat makes it interesting,
Sanjana Ramachandran (37:22):
right and entertaining. Also, like, I
think if I focus less on thepersonal service and the you
know, narrative making of yourown life and how much that can
benefit you, and more on purely,like, wizardry of sentences and
being entertaining, etc, like, Ithink that's a worthy goal to
strive for. On, it's like,honestly, it's very fun being a
writer for the most part,although it's harrowing for a
(37:45):
lot of it, but the top level,like, when you're done with the
piece, and you, I don't reallyread a lot of my work, but I
think it's, it's strangelybecome in tune with who I am
also, even though, like, like,the way I think, and everything.
So I do feel, like, when I whenI promote it, promote it, etc. I
don't feel squeamish. So I thinkwhen you are true to yourself,
(38:05):
like there's a love of the craftalso that comes in when you're
writing, etc, that you canreally go deep in and try to
understand what makes a goodessay, and that that you will
have your own opinion of it,versus all the craft books like
I have, I would say a lot of myway of coming to write has just
been putting my thoughts down inthe way that my mind is telling
(38:28):
me to I think the more you justJournal, the more you just write
for yourself, the more thesecond part, also the writing
for an audience, you start tomaybe understand what that
involves, what makes somethingentertaining. Um, one thing I
Tara Khandelwal (38:41):
wanted to ask is your journey to getting
published, you know, becauselots of people ask question,
yeah, what is your journey togetting published? And tell me
what the Shashi, I know we'renot talking about brands and
all, but tell me what the Shashisaid would love.
Sanjana Ramachandran (38:53):
Uh, my journey to getting published
was, yeah, I think it's justlike I always knew I had to be,
like, creative, like, creative,creative, not just working with
creative people or managingcreative people, which is what
in my you know, postengineering, post MBA, life. I
was in marketing, which I joinedbecause, like, I took, took up
(39:15):
that field and career pathbecause I knew it was creative.
But, like, marketing is notadvertising. You will not be the
person writing the ads or beingcreative. It's mostly a lot of
project management, gettingthings together and making
things happen. A lot ofanalysis, also, which people
think the job does not involve.
Yeah, so at some point, as Iknew, like I had, as I
understood, that's whatmarketing was, the creative bug,
or like, the feeling of myselfbeing the creative person I
(39:38):
would sort of like, in meetings,be part of where people would be
like, Oh, she has a creativebent, but the actual creative
people are sitting there thatused to really irritate me,
because I am more creative than,like, you know, all of that. So
I just had this need to writeand to be like, the one creating
stories. I was like, I'll help.
(40:00):
Be out in the marketing capacityand do all of these things, but
my secret agenda was also to geta byline there. So in about the
two months of staying there, Idid a lot of work for them on
the marketing front, they werestill like looking at salesy and
advertising led strategies fortheir magazine. But
subscriptions were just poppingoff in the world. At that time,
in mid 2019 the Ken had justsort of started up. So I was
(40:20):
like, maybe you want to pivot tosubscription. So the first month
was about that, but then I wasalso reading Raja Gupta's memo
that had just come out at thattime, and I saw it on somebody's
desk there, and I was like, Whyis this here? And we're like,
maybe doing a piece on it. Yeah,I'm reading it. And she called
me a couple of days later, andshe was like, his launch event
is happening. Do you want to goreport and see if you can come
(40:42):
up with the piece? So I went tothe launch event, I read the
book, and I dug into some past,you know, essays about Raja
Gupta's insider trading scam,and there were a lot of, like,
interesting plot holes, etc,there. So I was like, I can see
a piece forming here. And Ipitched it to them, and they let
me write it, and they carried ita couple of months later. So,
(41:04):
yeah, I mean, you use one bylineto get another byline. I think
52 was the next big by pitch forme. I always had that Sanjana
story in mind. And there werevery few publications who had
that long form thing the way Iwas imagining it, like a very
New Yorker style start from,like, go many levels deep, lot
of analysis. I was reading a lotof I have read a bunch of
(41:26):
narrative non fiction, so Ireally love Tom Wolf, and that
crop of that era of writing fromAmerican journalism, um, so I
pitched it to 52 they kind ofgot the piece, and then they
really bought into it as weworked on the story, and it
turned out to be super viral. Sothen that led to another piece
with 62 so I mean, just like Ithey constantly pitching to
(41:49):
being again in touch with yourideas and your thoughts and
feelings and understanding whatwill fit on what kind of website
and but that is the story of howI got published, and went on
from the book also came. So,like I said, mid 2020 when I was
going through this, likecreative redirection crisis,
where I had to create a lot ofstuff, the book was one of the
(42:12):
ideas that I was focused on. AndI found out about. So the 52
essay happened. I also found outabout South Asia speaks, the
fellowship that I was acceptedto in the 2022 class, and I
pitched the book as a project tothem, like, basically I had, by
then, the synopsis, thequestions, a little bit of the
(42:32):
research, and maybe two chapterslike like the namesake. I had
sort of already written somedrafts of what the book would
look like, and because of thelike, it, followed on the cues
of the namesake. So my mentor atthe fellowship, Sanam Mahar,
who's been an amazing allythrough this journey, she read
that essay. She really liked it.
She took my book as a project,and that's also when I like
(42:54):
that. That's when I startedwriting it more. And then I
found an agent, kanesh Gupta,who we met on Twitter. He also
liked the premise of the book,and he immediately saw, like
what it was going for, and likethe sit with what's been
achieved and other otherwriting, other countries. And it
was a long journey. All of thiswas like eight, nine months
(43:18):
apart each so the fellowship,and then finding the agent, and
then seven months after that, wepitched it to a bunch of
publishers. We had likedifferent options, and Alice was
the best to go with. And thenthe rest, like 80% of the book
was left to right at that point.
So I then, then there was thistime I started writing the most.
(43:39):
So over this three, three yearjourney where there was some
milestones that regard wereregarding the book. A lot of it
was also just publishing normalstuff. But after I got the
publisher, I wrote the remaining80, 90% of the book over eight
or nine months, then they editedit for six months or so. And and
(44:00):
coming to your next question,well, I just told Ganesh one day
that, like, I want more helpwith everything else. I've spent
a lot of time and my whole lifewriting this, but I need to make
this, you know what it is. Andso we made, I made this list of
like, everybody who I thoughtwould be a good reader or
reviewer of the blob, andincluded many names, because
(44:20):
these are all busy people, and Iknew they would be many of you
get many no's. But if we reachedout to say 2030 people, maybe
five would say yes. So Shashi,Thabo was one of them. We had,
like a lot of other names in thelist, and a lot of the other
blurbs that we have are also, Ithink, really cool. So yeah, the
short story is, operationally, ii as a marketing brain, I knew
(44:41):
exactly what all you could do tomake something a product. I
pushed some people to help meget it. And the long story is,
I've been at this for a fewyears now. I had the Amit Verma
podcast a couple of months ago.
I have like these bylines, etc.
So I mean, if you keep at it,and you keep at your craft, and
you're, you know. It'll getthere basically. Oh,
Tara Khandelwal (45:02):
that's really cool. I think it'll be very
inspiring for anyone listeningout there who wants to get
published. What is next for you?
What are you working on next? I
Sanjana Ramachandran (45:13):
am working, and I think I'm still
working on the book. It's like,it's really crazy to me to be it
in flesh and blood. I've almostnot been like when I see it, I
just like, I'm very overwhelmedbecause I'm like, should I made
this? And now I have to, like,read it and live up to it, and
I'm, surprisingly, I'm not,like, there are the critical
thoughts and the things that Ithink would be better, they've
kind of dimmed a bit, becausethere's like, this overwhelming
(45:36):
feeling of, like, genuineappreciation and wonder that
this has happened at all. So I'mgoing to focus on getting this
out there a lot. And I have afew ideas on what I might do
next. There's a newsletterseries brewing in my mind, more
business writing, because that'swhat I did for the ken but
(45:58):
hopefully something like, yeah,
Tara Khandelwal (46:00):
something very much looking forward to it,
because I really like these kindof books. You know, I love non
fiction. And another bookrecommendation I have, I think
many of our listeners arealready know of it is
desperately seeking Shah Rukh,which I think was also really
interesting book and made methink about how I am,
Sanjana Ramachandran (46:22):
the way I am, but you know, like I've also
had my eyes on fiction for abit, yeah, fiction like this,
again, like hyper lucidprotagonist going through life
feeling shocked. I would
Tara Khandelwal (46:36):
love to read that as well. Thank
Unknown (46:38):
you so much. Yeah, this was really fun.
Tara Khandelwal (46:41):
Hope you enjoyed this episode of Books
and Beyond with bound.
Michelle D'costa (46:45):
This podcast is created by bound, a company
that helps you grow throughstories. Find us at bound India
on all social media platforms.
Tara Khandelwal (46:54):
Tune in every Wednesday as we peek into the
lives and minds of somebrilliant authors from India and
South Asia the.
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