Re-release. Devashish & Nidhi: Enter The Psyche Of Indian Psychological Thrillers

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Devashish Sardana (00:51):
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Welcome to Books and Beyond. With bounds. I'm Tara
khande loal, and I'm MichelleD'costa, and in this podcast, we
talk to India's finest

Michelle D'costa (01:03):
authors and uncover the stories behind the
best written books

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and dissect how these books shape our lives and our
worldview today.

So let's dive in. This episode is part of our
branded series with PenguinRandom House India. Hi everyone.
Welcome back. Tara and I aresuper passionate about
thrillers, and we often discussthrillers, and you know why we
like them? So today, we have twovery talented authors with us

(01:32):
whose books have become bestsellers. We are going to be
unpacking the whole world ofIndian psychological thrillers
with them. Also, please exercisescorching while listening to
this episode, because it coversso many sensitive topics like
mental health, suicide, cancerand gaslighting, among

Tara Khandelwal (01:48):
that we really like the two books and the two
authors that we're interviewingtoday. And one of the topics is
about women, and women have beenportrayed differently across
thrillers, from being dark andderanged to being victims, to
being vulnerable and beingstrong, badass investigators and
the heroine of Nidhi upadhyaslatest book, I hear you, mahika

(02:11):
is one such woman. So the storygoes like this, mahika is hoping
that a baby will breathe newlife into her dead marriage, but
all of her pregnancies meet thesame fate, because no baby is
perfect for her husband, Shivam,who is a genius geneticist,
until there is one Rudra, theworld's first genetically

(02:32):
altered fetus, and he is Shivam,perfect creation and mahika,
last hope so. The question is,does Rudra help her escape her
marriage, and how reliant Is sheon her child to save her? And I
could not keep this book down.
Yeah. And

on the other hand, we have another page
turner by devashi sadhana, whosemain female lead, Simon Singh is
one of the most gutsy femaleinvestigators I have come
across. So we know that thisdetective is actually inspired
by Deva. She's lifelong affairwith thriller fiction and his
passion for suspenseful cinemaand his own struggles with

(03:09):
mental health as a kid. Um SoSimone actually encountered a
really strange case in hertenure as an investigator where
she finds young girls wereturning up dead with a box in
their hand sent to them bysomeone really mysterious called
the dream catcher. And most ofthe people think that these are
suicides, but we actually readto find out if they are really

(03:29):
suicides, or if there'ssomething more sinister in the
background. So Will she be ableto crack this case without
affecting her own sanity? Shehas her own dark past, she has
her own battles to fightthrough. Will she be able to do
all of this by herself?

So welcome devasheesh And Nidhi, and let's
crack the code of successfulpsychological thrillers with
both of you.

Thank you so much Vishal

Nidhi Upadhyay (03:52):
and Tara for having us over. Thank you, Tara,
Thank you, Michelle. Superexcited to be here.

Yeah, I'm really excited as well, because
I think thrillers is one of ourfavorite genres, right? Tara, so
before we begin, you know, Ijust really wanted to know, how
did you both actually get intothe world of psychological
thrillers? Where did it allbegin and what, according to
you, makes a successfulpsychological strength? No. So

for me, it was actually a very simple choice. I
grew up reading a lot ofthrillers and mystery books, and
I just love drama, and I justlove, you know, an author, or
even if I watch movies as it'salways thriller movies where I
love the director just pullingthe rug from under my feet. So I

(04:39):
love, just love that feeling. Ilove the feeling of, you know,
putting together a puzzle. So,so for me, it was a very clear
choice of, it has to be athriller. So my first book
actually was a fantasy thriller.
Was in the psychologicalthriller, but I realized that I
gravitate more towards, youknow, books where characters are
internally. You. Motivated. Andwhat I mean by that is, usually

(05:01):
in thrillers, you you have, youknow, it's, they're plot driven.
A lot of thrillers are plotdriven because it's about, you
know, solving that mystery,solving the puzzle, action,
something's happening, you know,the detective is trying to chase
down the camera. So it's veryplot driven. And it's okay to
have characters who are shallow.

(05:24):
I'm going on a limb there, butit's okay. What, for me, makes
you know psychological thrillerstand out is you really have to
delve in deeper into the psycheof the characters and bring that
out, because that's where themotivation lies. So So, yeah,
for me, I just love that, youknow, aspect of combining strong

(05:46):
characters with the plot that athriller demands. And love
writing psychological service.

So, you know, before Nidhi answers, I'm
curious, because you said youlike character driven
psychological thrillers. Who'sthe, you know, your favorite, I
would say, I think antagonist.
If I'm not wrong, what was yourfavorite antagonist in any
thriller that you either watchedor read so far?

See for me, I'll tell you, I saw this movie, and
later I read the book, you know,I'll be honest, silence of the
lands, right? And for me, I sawthe movie, and the whole time I
was so, you know, not sureattracted is the right word,

(06:30):
but, but for me, the antagonistwas such a strong character, I
was almost rooting for theantagonist. And later I realized
that, and why is that right? Andit made, for me, it made the
story just so much richer. So,so that was one, I would say,

Hannibal Lecter, right? For all our
listeners who haven't seen thesilence of the lamp series, it's
actually based off a series ofbooks, and Hannibal Lecter,
even, according to me, is one ofthe most interesting antagonist
I've ever come

across. So, in fact, I'll tell you, even when I
was writing, you know, my thefirst book in the Simone Singh
series. It's called the girl inthe glass case, I started, of
course, Simone was a character,and I really wanted to start
with, you know, a woman, anempowered, kick ass woman like

(07:23):
that. That was that had to be myprotagonist. But on the other
hand, I also wanted a kick assantagonist who was a woman, or
in this case, a trans woman,right? But I started with that
character first, because Ireally wanted the antagonist to
have deep, strong, motives thatreaders could connect with and

(07:44):
root for, because then once youconnect with an antagonist, then
it's almost because you'rerooting for both, and then who
wins. And that just makes thestory so much richer, and so
much from a thriller standpoint,so much suspenseful. So yeah,
Nidhi,

what about you? So for me, Michelle and
Tara, leading psychologicalthrillers per se would start
back when I first read And ThenThere Were None by gatha
Christie. Back then, we did nothave psychological thrillers as
a genre. It was more of like whodone it, and that's when I
realized what it means toplaying with the psyche by all

(08:23):
of them being in a house andtrying to find who has done what
someone has done, right? Solater on, we had these Gone Girl
and other things coming intopicture other books that
categorized as domestic noise orpsychological terror. So my
first love was Agatha Christiewhen it comes to reading or

(08:43):
writing, I still go back to thesame god of mystery, and that's
how it started. But like devashisaid, it became more and more
intense the love forpsychological thriller when I
understood the psyche behindpeople and how to kind of use it
or manipulate it for creatingfear or a crime, why it is done

(09:06):
so it kind of helps us to writea mystery with layers. And
that's how the psychologicalthriller part started attracting
me in the books, of course, GoneGirl cannot be missed. You
cannot be missed in terms ofbooks. And again, on the side,
where the negative charactercomes and you gets into the
brain of the negative character,understanding the motivation or

(09:29):
the back story is what makes apsychological thriller the most
engaging psychological thriller,when you are understanding and
getting into the head of aperson, whether it's a
protagonist or the antagonist?

Yeah. And I just, I'm a big fan of
psychological journalists, youknow, and Tara often wonders,
she's like, Michelle, how do youmanage to watch all these, are

these books?
And I really, she really watchesthe darkest things of people
doing, you know, so manydisturbing

and people.
Really made me, made me thinkabout, you know, like you said,
Devesh, what is it? I'm usingthe word attraction. It just
feels very, you know, I wouldsay very wrong here. But yes, I
think it is. It is that sort oflike, you know, seeing, seeing
the extent to which people cango to and the way they can
behave in certain situationsand, and I think one, one movie
comes to mind. And this, again,is based off a book. I think

(10:21):
most of our favorite films arebased off books where, you know,
this is misery by Stephen King,and you know, for for this ones
who have not seen it or not readthe book, I don't want to give
much spoilers, but there is thiswoman who is a fan of this
writer, and she actually kidnapshim one day. And what I liked
was it actually flipped orsupported this, this trope of

(10:42):
how men, usually men are, youknow, stalkers, or all of that.
And here it was, this woman andand the extent to which she can
go to to sort of, you know,capture this writer in her
house. It was, it was just mindblowing. And I feel there are so
many more rich thrillers thatsort of unpack, unpack, you
know, the sort of Darkest Minds,you know, in the, I would say,

(11:05):
human psyche. But before weunpack, different kinds of
films, different kinds oftropes, you know, I wanted to
know more about both of you,because I know that both of your
first books were also bestsellers. Your current books are
just sort of hitting off thecharts, you know. And I know
that there are not manythrillers which are published in
India, especially not throughtraditional publishing, you

(11:27):
know. I know it's a small world,but I don't want to assume that
you both know each other. I wantto know have you read each
other's work?

Oh yes, yes, maybe. And I know each other. We
we've known each other nownearly, what, a couple of years.
I think this was so we share thesame editor at Penguin guru, and
guru was the one who you knowintroduced us, because both of
us write thrillers. And like yousaid, there are very few Indian

(11:58):
authors in the thriller genre.
So, so yes, we we go back acouple of years. We both,
incidentally, live in Singapore,so So yeah, so we stay in touch,
and yes, we read each other'sworks as well. Nidhi, in fact,
was a beta reader or my latestbook, The Girl with broken

(12:19):
dreams, and I can't thank herenough for her valuable
feedback. And, yeah,

actually, may I know what? What did you
suggest, which sort of made intothe final version of the book?

I think it was already perfectly written.
There was nothing needed in it,because he has a very good
understanding of characters andhow to sketch them. So there was
nothing I could have done otherthan enjoying the book and
getting out of my reading slump,because we write so much and
there is so much research to dothat fiction takes a backtrack

(12:55):
in terms of reading. And I hadwritten to him after finishing
the book that thanks for kickingme out of my reading slump
because I had stopped readingfiction completely to write. So
devashish owes

that. I think that's the biggest compliment,
right? For a writer who givestheir book to beta reader and
the book comes back. I mean, thebeta you says, I'm done. That
means the book is really good.
You know, they're taking thatmuch time to read a book. It
means that, oh, it's very hardto get through. So that's the
biggest compliment, and it'sokay that you guys know each
other. Maybe you can maybe cowrite something in the future.

(13:28):
But before we get to that, youknow, I also wanted to find out
about your backgrounds, becauseyou don't come from writing
backgrounds. Nidhi, you were aheadhunter. Devshi, sure, I am a
graduate, you know, so and bothof you are so passionate about
psychological thrillers. So canyou tell both of you? Can you
tell us a little bit about yourchildhood and how you got

(13:50):
introduced to stories in thefirst place, and how did that
writing journey then come about?
Go ahead. So

with me, Michelle and Tara that simple,
very simple reason why I startedreading was that I was a key
lock child. My parents wereworking, and summers were the
most difficult times when wewere locked at home, because,
being a girl, we were notallowed to move around. So what
she did was she would go andbring a few books. And I'm not

(14:19):
talking about, you know, millsand bones. I'm talking about
hardcore Hindi Sahitya, which isGabon go down by Munshi
Premchand, because my givingjust a bit of background on it.
My mom is a Hindi literatureeducated in that and is a
graduate, so she was the one whointroduced me to these fiction

(14:39):
which had very strongcharacters, and I had that as
my, you know, only passion interms of growing up. And then I
realized that I write as welland more of therapy, or, you
know, expressing my feelings asthey say, that authors feel very
keenly about anything. So if I.
With my brother, I would writedown a poem about him. If I was

(15:01):
happy about something, I wouldwrite again a poem. So people
started gradually noticing thatI'm expressing my emotions using
words rather than going andconfronting anyone. Which was
the era I was being brought up,that women were not allowed or
were not encouraged to say whatthey wanted to say. I was

(15:21):
studying in a convent school.
Still there was, there was a lotof discrepancy, I must say, in
terms of what was taught andwhat was actually practiced. So
it started there, and then Iremember I was in grade 10, I
had secured really well in myexams, and I picked physics,

(15:42):
chemistry, maths as my subjects.
So my mama, who was in Lucknow,he took a train and came to my
hometown and told me, you'remaking the biggest mistake of
your life. And he used to callme kavini Because he used to
compare it with Mahadevi Varma.
And he would say that, you know,you will find engineers in every

(16:03):
house. You won't find poets andwriters everywhere. So don't
miss out on the talent you have.
But at that point of time,getting financial independence,
standing on my feet was veryimportant for me, and I knew
that by writing a book or beinga art graduate won't cut it, not
in that era. So I decided tostay where I was, and kind of

(16:24):
like for two years, studiedphysics, maths, chemistry, there
was nothing about writinganything. Then I went to
engineering college, and thenthe passion again caught up with
me in terms of like writingscripts for the hostel night or
the school, or doing some kindof competitions in terms of
poetry competition. Then theystarted noticing my talent,

(16:47):
however, again, went back tojob. Had kids. The only medium
that stayed in terms of writingwas writing one poem for my
husband for anniversaries. Nowhe collected a few, like, 15 odd
years, and then he and yes, Iwon't deny, anytime I would
fight, I would give it back inwords. Anytime I did not like

(17:08):
anything about anyone, I wouldwrite it in a diary. So he knew
that I was upset not to code. Itwas to decode is, well, very
difficult. Easier way was tofind my diary and read what I
felt. So it kind of became themedium. And then, for good, like
1516, years, he kept on saying,write something. Then, as you
said, the im graduates have anew profession sideline that

(17:32):
they write, like Karan Bajajand, you know others, Chetan
Bhagat. So he was bitten by thesame bug. He said, You should
write. I cannot write, but youshould write, and you should not
waste your talent. It is, it isthe era when I was kind of
looking for a job after myyounger one. So he said, You
should write. I ignored it. Hesaid again. Then I said, Don't

(17:53):
rub your midlife crisis on me. Idon't want to write. I want to
go back to work, full time work.
And then he said, You just giveyourself three months and write
something. That is when I firstwrote the first actual novel,
without thinking of publishingor anything. And that was, I
hear you, and I wrote it. I hadno clue what I was writing, but
I knew that if I'm readingthrillers, I would write

(18:15):
something. I had an idea whichwas brewing in my mind, and then
I wrote it. And after that,there was a long, torturous, I
must say, journey to getpublished. But here I am
accidental writer, I must say,

I would say thanks to your uncle who took
that train journey Delhi. It'snot common to come across
relatives who actually supportthe arts, so it really kudos to
your uncle, and then, of course,to your husband for pushing you
in the right direction. Yeah.

What about you?
Devish,

yeah. So see, for me, I grew up around
stories, and as most kids, kidsdo, it started with my
grandmother, you know, my daddy,and it's, Sunidhi. She was
actually in the, you know,school teacher as well. So
something else we have incommon, like, you know, the

(19:09):
family but my daddy, she used totell me stories, right, like, as
grandmothers do. And the onestory I absolutely loved and
wanted her to tell me again andagain, was the Mahabharata, so
much so that once you know thethe BR Chopra series came out,
you know, I would watch thatseries on ReLU on, on a loop

(19:32):
again and again and again. Andwhat, what stood out for me,
because, again, this was myfirst trust with, with the
literature, you know, right?
Were actually the femalecharacters? Because now again,
literature, a lot of timesreflects the times, right? And
it is Mahabharata is quitepatriarchal in that sense. But I

(19:53):
loved some of the femalecharacters. I. You know, in the
Mahabharata, be it, you know,drop these resilience, or
kunti's resourcefulness, oreven, you know, Gandhari
strength, when you know she'sshe's asked to she, she herself,
blindfolds herself as an act ofsolidarity. And for me, this was

(20:15):
a time when this was theliterature that started
influencing me. Then it was mymother. And again, you know,
when I was in school,unfortunately, you know, my
parents separated, and so I grewup with a single mom who is, you
know, who, who raised threekids. So again, seeing the

(20:38):
strength of a woman first hand.
And my sister again, you know,who my elder sister, who was,
you know, who's, who's like mylittle mother to me. And then
when I got married, my wife,who's, who's actually a super

(20:59):
strong, you know, woman verystrong opinions. Go getter. She
does what she wants. So growingup around strong women is, I
feel, why I inherently, youknow, like bringing those voices
out in literature, because it'sabout celebrating that

(21:20):
resilience, that confidence andthe strength of women and
portraying the times of today,that's to answer why, you know,
more female centric voices in mynovels as well. Now, the journey
for me was a bit similar to whatNidhi was, you know, sharing
with us. I actually the lasttime I ever wrote anything was

(21:44):
in high school. So the last timeI ever wrote prose or an essay
was in high school, and that wasbecause it was mandated, yeah,
and I'm not written anythinglike, when did engineering? When
went to ima, started working.
I'm a Marketing Brand Builder,you know, branding professional.
And it was really few years intomy job. You know, you have one

(22:07):
of those days where you comeback and you're like, why are
you working? You know, you know,what's the point of corporate
life? And I remember, and mywife, she, she's, she's very,
very candid, yeah, verystraightforward. And she was
like, So what do you want to do?
And I was like, I don't know,but it's I don't know, like,

(22:31):
what I should when she so, mywife's answer to anything,
usually is make a list. Yeah, soanytime you're in doubt, make a
list and then action it. So Isaid, Okay. So she said, Okay,
just answer one question. If youdid not have to work for a
living, right, what would youdo? And I remember, I sat down,
wrote, you know, created thatlist, and that list only had one

(22:52):
thing, which was I'd love towrite. She was like, Yeah, you
sent me a lot of, you know,lovey dovey messages, but I'm
not seeing you write prose oranything, why? And I just felt,
I remembered that feeling ofwriting fiction back in school.
I remember that, you know, justwhen I sit down and write and

(23:14):
let my mind wander and imagine Ijust absolutely love that
feeling. And my wife was like,So what's holding you back? And
I was like, but I don't havetime. You know, like,
everybody's busy and I'm busy.
My job's demanding. And she'slike, Yeah, so find time. Like,
how do you find time? And shesaid, wake up early. And that's

(23:35):
what I do. This was seven yearsago, and for the last seven
years, I wake up early, five toseven is my time, yeah, so I try
to separate my or keep my dayjob and my, you know, so to say,
hobby separate, but five toseven is my time. I wake up I
write not not all on, not everyday, but most days. And, yeah,

(23:55):
that's that was seven years ago,and now it's three novels round,
hopefully one novel every that'sthe goal. So here I am

that requires a lot of willpower. I know that
I can never wake up so early inthe morning, but I just love how
supportive your spouses havebeen, both of you, right? And
then just sort of made me thinkof my own journey. So in my
case, it has been my parents, Ithink that has not been a time
where they haven't seen mewriting. So sometimes my
parents, in fact, ask me, youknow, can't you do something

(24:27):
else in life? Like, can you dosomething which is more
realistic? Like, you know,cooking. Don't you want to learn
cooking for survival? And I say,No, I need writing for survival.
It's just, I think, you know,like, if you love writing,
nothing can keep you away fromit. So even me, for example, I
studied commerce, you know,lady, I was always raised with
this, with this upbringing,saying that, you know, you need

(24:49):
to have a day job, you need toearn your living. And you know,
as we know, even now, it's verydifficult for Indian writers to
earn, earn a living fromwriting. So I've always had a
day job, and I've always triedto figure. Route, a way to make
writing work, you know? So,yeah, I just, I love that both
of you have, sort of, you know,figured finally, that you love
writing, and you do, you know,anything to make that possible?

(25:10):
That's really, yeah,

and, and the books are so exciting as well,
right? So, Nidhi, like, I reallylove your character, the
character mahika, and I hear youand you know, it's very
interesting, because, as wementioned, you know, she's
pregnant, and she the husbandwants a perfect baby, and she
feels like she's a victim ofpatriarchy. And you know, we see

(25:33):
her barely have any agency ofher own, and what that does to
her, and it's a very nuancedcharacter. So can you tell us,
sort of the inspiration behindthis multi layered character and
all the things that are going inher head, and how has she found
herself in this kind of asituation where she has this
baby who's a sort of anomaly,and her husband who is a, you

(25:57):
know, genetic genius. So

I act, it's a very interesting question, and I
really have to look back how thecharacter came into, you know.
Picture is that I had a storyidea, which was that I wanted to
read a book that was a thriller,you know, but a thriller that
was not gory. And this is duringthe time of my pregnancy, second

(26:24):
baby, that I really wanted toread something which was
thrilling enough, but somethingthat I could read with a baby
within me. So I started thinkingof looking for books that had a
mother and a child'srelationship, but we had horror
in it. We had, you know,thrillers in it. But there
wasn't anything that would be,you know, digestible enough for

(26:49):
a six, seven month pregnantlady. And now the need to read
thriller was killing me, so Istarted thinking, what if a baby
starts talking to the mother?
Now it stayed, I am not awriter. It stayed with me, and I
thought this is a great storyidea. Somebody would come up
with this. And being a sciencestudent, being a logical person,
getting into that picture wherea baby will talk, the only

(27:13):
logical explanation to that wasgenetic modification. It cannot
be magical, because it won't sitwell with me. It has to be a
science fiction based story. Sonow I had to do my research in
terms of, like, what era I baseit in, because if I put it in
today's timeline, geneticmodification has been done,
cloning has been done. My owndad's organization in Karnal had

(27:36):
done cloning for the fellows andthe cows. So I knew what was
happening at back then, when Iwas in grade 12, so I knew I had
to go beyond that. And that iswhen I took the character
mahika, to 1990s when she isgrowing up. So when you say the
idea of feminism was still notthere, terms like gas lighting,

(27:56):
mansplaining were not there.
There wasn't the whole idea of awomen asking for the rights. All
she knew was to, you know, standup on her own feet so that if
something goes wrong, at leastshe has someone to support the
kids. She has some form of moneyto support the kids. That was
the only idea of feminism backthen. Now she moves in that era,

(28:21):
in 1998 and comes to us, and shehas left behind India
progressing. She's left behindhow the women in India are
fighting for their rights. Shehas been stagnant there where
she left. So I wanted thatcharacter. I had a choice to
make her kick ass and, you know,kind of fight and break the
mold. And I had a choice tocreate a character that becomes

(28:45):
the Phoenix, arises, rises fromthe ashes, and become the
feminist by exploring her own,you know, strengths and
weaknesses. So I picked thesecond one for the simple
reason, because I was talkingabout the era when actually
women were wired wrongly, thatyou just have to give, give,
give, taking always came with aguilt. So that is how the

(29:05):
character became. So I had tomake the character fall in love
with sahih Shivam in a very,very different way. So it was
completely in love so that shecouldn't see anything, which is
the case of every domestic noirpremise that you keep on taking
violence and keep on takingharassment, because you love the
person, and you keep on givingchances, which was in staying

(29:27):
with the character. Then came.
She was well educated so thatshe could stand on her feet. But
I have lived out of India for 20odd years to tell you this,
there are certain level ofdegrees that don't work outside
architecture dentist, and theyare all well educated people,
but they are doing jobs ofattendance if they don't upgrade

(29:48):
their skills. So it was a very,very real character, if you
talking about my era or today'sera. So I created that weaving
around those kind of women whohad. Have actually sacrificed
the entire, you know, BDS, MDS,or even MBBS, because they
cannot practice outside India.

(30:08):
So that became my central ideaof a character, of an expat
woman who's been, you know,whose wings have been cut for
different reasons, and then howshe finds herself and then
gathers the courage. And whenyou say Tara, she was looking
for the baby for strength. Shewasn't actually, she was giving
strength to the baby that I'mhere for you because I will

(30:30):
cross the road and cook and doeverything possible to save you.
So it was a mother's feelingthat you know you can, you can
do whatever you want to do ifyou want to save your child? Is
the emotion I explored in thatparticular character,

yeah. And I actually, you know, Nithi, I was
drawn to the book because I'mfascinated by medical thrillers.
You know, apart from all thedark and disturbing stories that
I consume, I think medicalthrillers was my entry point
towards thrillers, you know, tothe whole psychological thriller
genre. So Robin Cook's medicalthrillers was something I read
back to back. I reread them. Iconsumed them like, you know,

(31:07):
like a virus. So I think for me,that's why I was drawn towards
your book. And I think whatwould work for me was how
realistic it was, right? Likeyou said, Because had you made
her sort of a woke contemporarycharacter, we might have not
seen that manipulation, or wemight have not seen all the
things that she goes through inthe book, you know, which makes
me curious about your owncharacter, devashish, because,
you know, I think I haven't seenmany female investigators in

(31:30):
books so far. I grew up readingNancy Drew. I remember borrowing
Nancy Drew books on my library,and, you know, wanting to see
more of female investigators,but I did not see them,
especially not in the Indianfiction world. So I want to know
what is the inspiration behindSimone, because, in fact, we are
also having a series. This isyour second book in the series.
I'm sure that you really lovethe character. In order to, you

(31:51):
know, write a whole series, andyou even have another book
coming out. So please tell us,how did the story begin?

Yeah. So see, for me, it had to be a female
protagonist, and then exactly towhat you said, the more thrill.
And I read a lot of thrillersand mysteries, very few have
female leads, and especiallywhen it, when it comes to
crimes, and I'm talking about,you know, especially maybe five

(32:18):
years ago now, more and more weare seeing it in fiction. We are
seeing it in TV dramas, but itwasn't the norm, right? So, so
for me, as I was sharing mybackstory, it was important to
bring those voices and do mybit, you know, in influencing

(32:39):
through literature, the thewhole point of and the need to
have strong, empowered females,and I would go as far as saying
diverse voices. Because, asyou'd see in both of my books,
it's, it's it goes beyond just,you know, women empowerment, to

(33:01):
actually empowering anybody on aspectrum? Yeah, so, so I was
very clear that needs to thereneeds to be a, you know, female
protagonist. In fact, in thefirst book, we see two female
leads. And that was intentionalas well, because I felt, why
stop at one, right? It's becausea lot of times we've read novels

(33:21):
where we have two male leads, ora male and a female lead, and
the female is just to providethat romantic angle. And which I
felt was, why, like, that's nother role, just to, you know, to
be the arm Gandhi, to be honest.
So, so why not have two femaleleads? And then you explore
that, because when two femaleswith very different
personalities come together andare forced to work together. How

(33:43):
do they do it? Right? So, ofcourse, tensions and sparks fly
with different kind of sparks.
It's not romantic, but it's,it's, how do they then come
together? So that's, that waswhy. That was the reason I chose
Simone, and again, for me, itwas, I was clear that Simone has

(34:04):
to be flawed. Yeah, she, she,she's not the chosen one. You
know, she's not like there'sabsolutely nothing wrong with
her because, or she's not flawedbecause we as human beings are
flawed, right? And stories needto portray reality. Otherwise,
readers are going to reject it,and they're not going to connect

(34:24):
with the character character. Soin fact, in the second book, The
latest one, the girl with brokendreams, we see that Simone,
who's lost her grandma, the onlyfamily she's ever had, only and
she's lost her she's goingthrough a mental turmoil, and

(34:45):
she, she's, she's, she tried totake her own life, and which is
where, especially in this book,I'm exploring the themes of, you
know, mental health and suicidesin young adults, especially who
are. I'm learning that that's,that's the the bigger or the
larger societal angle, but itwas important to also look at it

(35:07):
from an individual's point ofview, right? And Simone kind of
reflects that, because she'sgoing through it herself, and
how she is then battling her ownmental demons while solving this
case, which is so interlinkedwith what she's going through.
So, yeah, that was, that was thethought behind choosing her and
putting her into difficultsituations, and then see her

(35:30):
come out of those, and thenbattle those. Yeah,

I found the whole, you know, the book
brought up so many questions,right? Because you have these
suicides, seemingly suicides, ofteenagers who have cancer. And
it just makes you think, I mean,it makes you think of
undeterminally ill, right? Sothere's a lot of these, like
ethical issues that come up aswell, and the question of, you

(35:55):
know, euthanasia, all of thosethings. So I think the book had
many layers in that way. And Ijust had a question for both of
you, is that you know you'redealing with, especially in the
psychological thriller genre,you are dealing with, you know,
these characters who are verydark, who have a lot of sort of

(36:17):
issues, you know, so to say, andobviously, are very different
than you know, what you guys arelike in real life. I mean, these
guys are, you know, a little bitoff the spec of the spectrum of
normal. If you look at a TV showlike you, which is also one of
my favorite TV shows, that guyis like, I mean, he's scary
shit. And I always wonder theperson who's writing this

(36:38):
character, you know, what arethey thinking it? Does it affect
like, does it start affectingyou? Because you're with these
you're writing these characters,so you're obviously with these
people for so many hours of theday. So does that affect

you as a person?
Yeah. So, okay, so for me, thereare two things. One, yes, it's
absolutely necessary for any youknow writer worth their word, to
get into the shoes of theircharacters, or shoes or heels of
their characters like so, thebiggest, I would say, or the
skill that we need to pick up,is empathy. Because we need to

(37:14):
empathize with our characters.
We need to understand whatthey're going through. We almost
need to become them. Yeah. Now,does that impact us? For me, I
can, I can, of course, speak formyself, yes. Short answer is
yes. There have been times whenat, you know, 5am I'm sitting
down writing, and I'm tryingbecause my character just lost

(37:37):
someone, or she's just gonethrough something horrible, and
that's how she's feeling, or inthe shoes of the antagonist who
is not going to murder someone,but I'm sitting there in the
chair enraged because I feellike doing it, but again, it's
all happening in my head, so Iunderstand that, but I need to

(37:59):
let it unravel In my head,because if I don't do that, I
will never become one with thecharacters, at least that's how
I think about it. Nidhi, howabout you?

First of all, thank you, Tara, for calling us
normal, because I think I doubtanyone outside trust me when the
first book came out. It's astory about four friends, and
it's a story about, you know,engineering college and friends.
And incidentally enough, I havefour friends, which were a core

(38:31):
group of, you know, friends inthe engineering time, they
started reading together thebook, and everybody started
thinking, who's who? Who'sNatasha, who's Catherine, who's,
you know, Riya. And they kept onguessing. And this Whatsapp
group was so active that Iforgot that today is the
publishing day of my book. Andthey were discussing the book.
And then after reading theentire book, they said, None of

(38:54):
us are inside the book, and allof us are there. So that is what
you become after writing a bookthat you have everyone of you,
and you're not stepping out orstepping in. For me, I have been
living in and out, breathing inand out, and it, you know when I
hear you. Was launched to answeryour question from someone who's

(39:16):
looking at us from outside. Fewof my friends called and said,
what goes in your devil mind? Sowhat all can you think of? Where
is it coming from? And how doyou separate the two, raising
two boys, staying with two boysand a dog. I don't think I am
any less devil anymore. When I'mI want to scare them. I have

(39:38):
lots of stories that they wouldnot come out of their room. So
rarely I differentiate. Like hesaid, You need to empathize. You
need to be the character. Sowith me, it's very difficult for
me to cut off from the book. Soit hangs for the entire day
somewhere in the back of mymind. But as you know, being a

(39:59):
mom, it is. Easy to multiprocess, so one part of my brain
keeps on working on thecharacter, but I know where to
draw. The thin line betweenusing that knife to cut the
onion rather than slittingsomeone's throat is the thin
line I draw. And I'm sure peoplearound me have started being
very scared. Trust me, I have toclose the door of my room before

(40:21):
I start writing, because mysearch history, I would one day
definitely be caught bySingapore Police. I have
searched things that I won'tlike to mention on the podcast.
So it's, it's that dark, butit's separate from my real

world. Yeah, I think, I think the search
history of writers is somethingpeople should never hold against
us, like never, never use asExhibit A because you never know
what you search for. And therehave been instances in my case
as well. So I don't really writethrillers, but no matter what I
write, you know, exhibit now, Ithink people have sort of
understood, okay, it's fiction.
Earlier, I would get messagesand say, Oh, Michelle, is this

(40:58):
you? Are you okay? And I said,No, it's okay, chill. It's it's
fiction. You know, there's areason it's fiction. So, yeah, I
do think that, and especiallywhen you know writers who write
on dark themes like this, theyoften joke that when people ask
other writers, you know, is thisautobiographical? Definitely,
they can't ask thriller writersthat, because

we know. The interesting story to this is
that I was doing some kind of aresearch, and I actually typed
that, how long does it take fora baby to drown in the water?
And I left the search like that,and 15 minutes later, the
younger one, who's 11 now I wasthis is for the current book. He

(41:40):
walks in and he sees theresearch happening, and he's
like, where are you? Drowningme. So I said, just with your
homework. Don't worry, nothingelse. So it is the kind of what
you say, research that goes soliving with boys, teenager and
Queen, they have their ownminds. They really think the mom

(42:01):
is a devil. So,

my God, I can't imagine what went through your
child's

Unknown (42:07):
such a scary moment.
No, imagine. Oh, my God, I can'timagine. Yeah,

so it's actually an opening scene of my
next book, and that is where Iwas trying to understand how
many minutes it takes. So I wentinto the details of how much,
how long will it take, how manytimes a baby will come up? So I
was reading all that, so it wasscary

for him. Oh, gosh, in fact, in fact, you
know, my next question is aboutscenes, really, because I can
imagine, in like, you know,thrillers have to be written
fast paced, right? Every scenehas to matter. You cannot have
even one scene that sort ofdrags and sort of gets, you
know, the attention away fromthe page. You can manage to do
that with literary fiction, butdefinitely not sellers. So every

(42:48):
scene has to be well thoughtout. And now I can imagine the
research that you put in. So,you know, there's one scene that
is that is very vivid in mymind, Nidhi, especially in your
book, where, you know, mahikais, is sort of home bound
because of her husband, and he'sso manipulative that he actually
changes the lock every time, andit feels so claustrophobic
because she doesn't even get onesecond outside the house. So for

(43:08):
me, my the most moving scene waswhen she's able to escape. And
the first place she goes to is,you know, to search work. She
wants to work. She needs a job.
She wants to save enough moneyto to buy the flight ticket back
home. So she goes to thisrestaurant and, you know,
strangers sort of see thisempathy for her. You know,
strangers sort of come to herrescue in a place in Singapore
where nobody knows her, whereher own husband is sort of, you

(43:31):
know, doing this against her. SoI really want to know which was
your favorite scene from thebook and why. So

my favorite scene, as you said, my favorite
scene from the book is similarto the one, but it is towards
the end of the story. ProbablyI'm giving away a little bit of
suspense, but she's locked andin the heat of the moment, lots
of things have happened, and weare reaching the climax of the
story, and the baby inside,here's something that he

(44:01):
shouldn't have heard, because itkind of puts him in a conflict,
whether she's really his motheror not. And the mahika, the
mother, starts thinking that hehas heard, and it is about Dr
grace, who's who comes intopicture later in the story. And
then she asked for the code,because the code has been
changed. So she asked for thecode. Now this baby can

(44:24):
communicate to the mother onlyby kicking the mother. So he
would kick one time. That meansone. Five times means five, and
they both have established atandem that every time the
father would change the code,the kid would come to know and
would, you know, kick and tellthe code. Now in the in the heat
of the moment when she wants torush, she has the money, she has

(44:45):
the resources to go away, shecannot open the door, and the
father has changed the codeunknowingly, that zero would,
you know, act as a barrierbetween her freedom and the
entire thing. So he kicks. Rudracakes, telling the code, mahika
doesn't get it, because zeromeans nothing in a cake. So he

(45:06):
gets he thinks that he's tryingto help. The mother is not
getting she's panicking. Themother thinks that he's not
taking my side, because hethinks somebody else is his
mother. And the conflict that iscreated by the just the figure
zero, and how Rudra waits for meto figure out that this is a
zero and not panic, is one of myfavorite scenes. The other one,

(45:29):
which is equally favorite, isthe feminist part of mahika
actually taking a physical, youknow, violent anger when she
destroys the lab, and she throwseverything apart, killing the,
you know, fetus in theincubator, and creating a mess,
which is like a contained rage,which knows no bound, and

(45:53):
starts, you know, showing thefirst sign of strength in a very
physical form was The secondmost favorite, but writing it, I
think writing feminine more ofmahika taking that leap, was my
more favorite scene.

But even as you're narrating this now, I was
at the edge of my seat. Anddevshi, there are so many
moments like that in your bookalso. So some of my favorite
scenes were when Simone, who isthe lead female investigator, is
spending time with thetherapist, Diya, and it's
because of the way that youportray the character, right?
Like we don't know if she's asuspect in the case that Simone

(46:30):
is investigating, we don't knowwhether she's a good person and
she's just being a therapist andlooking out for Simone, or is
she a suspect? And in thesession, Simone becomes quite
vulnerable, because she has herown disturbing past, and she has
to come to terms with that whenshe's dealing with, you know,
this case. So, so what is, whatwas your favorite scene from the

(46:50):
book, and why?

My favorite scene was actually the first
one, and probably because Iwrote it first, and this was the
scene where I wrote the lastword of the scene and I cried,
yeah, and probably that's why itstill, you know, remains close
to my heart. So the it's thefirst scene, basically we see

(47:14):
this, you know, 18 year oldgirl. She's in her hostel room,
and she's received a box calledthe dream box. Yeah, and then
there's few things inside, andshe, she locks her door from
inside, and we see that she's,she's suffering from cancer. She
has lung cancer. Her mom died ofthe same, you know, ailment,

(47:40):
lung cancer, and she's been withher dad for six years. And
there's, there's, you know, sheshe's thinking about that, and
there are hints that she's aboutto do something, and then she
calls up her dad, and her dadloves to sing, right? And then
her dad is like, Yeah, I'mcoming to the hospital tomorrow
to pick you up. And she's like,No, no, no, don't come. And the

(48:02):
dad sings this, you know, Latamangeshwar song, which is, you
know, lag jagale. And the lastverse of the song is shayed,
Paris, Janam, mulaka, tho Nahu.
And that's when it it's itstrikes the reader that actually
moolah Kath ho now, because shedisconnects the phone and she
knows she's doing it, and shetakes a life So, so this was,

(48:22):
this is the first scene which,which kind of sets, set, sets.
It's up, you know, for Simone tocrack the case. But, but, yeah,
this was a scene which, whichactually, you know, struck a
chord for different reasons

for me, yeah, and, and, I think with such
intense thrillers, I'm sureevery scene is challenging in
his own way. But yeah, I thinkthe ones that you're narrated as
seen just it gave me goosebumps,you know, just listening to it,
imagine, like reading the bookall over again. Okay, so this
brings us to the last round ofthe interview, which is our
rapid fire round. There's nothinking allowed, or you have to

(48:57):
just answer in one word or onesentence. What? I

What is one of your favorite psychological
thrillers featuring a woman? For

me, it will, it would be VEDA claw, that same

anything, anything that would be she, the
character from Netflix series.
The turnaround of that characteris something I adore.

Nice. Okay, one place that you want your
female lead to explore, and

why? For me, lost in space.

For me, it would be India. Oh, yes.

So if you could meet your female lead in real
life and tell her one thing,what would it

be? I tell Simone, I love your haircut.
She's bald, by the way. So

for me, it would be, I would like to be a
mother like you for America.
Nice,

okay, one of favorite psychological thriller
that you would take with you onan island and take nothing else
along. I would write

one there.
Nice, good

one. Okay, there was she. It's, it's

okay. I probably won't. Take a psychological
thriller, but I would take

all books.
You're only allowed one book.
Oh,

only allowed Am I allowed an author? So I wanted
to say all books of Lisa

jewel. Okay, your favorite psychological
thriller of all time,

Agatha Christie. And Then There Were
None

psychological thriller. I would the family
upstairs, no, the silentpatient. No, the family
upstairs, no, the silentpatient.

Okay, so the last one, your next book? So
it's,

it's a continuation of the Simone Singh
series, we'll see her solveanother, you know, crime or
crimes. This time I'm exploringthemes of domestic violence and
abuse, combining it withsisterhood and then the the

(50:59):
strength in sisterhood.

So you're asking a mystery writer to give
away the secrets. Mine is againa thriller, again female centric
roles and exploring the theme ofblack magic and child loss and
how educated person falls intothe trap of black magic or

(51:20):
things alike. So it's more onthe darker side,

wow. I think both of them are just, you know,
again, very intense, veryinteresting. Wish you all the
best with it, and definitelyTara and I are going to look out
for it when it comes out. Thankyou so much for this
conversation. I think it was,you know, we could go on and on.
When we talk about psychologicalthriller, there's so much to
unpack, right? There's so manyvarieties of characters, so many

(51:44):
so many interesting storylines.
You know, I do hope that you'llkeep up this passion for
thrillers, and you'll give Indiamuch more thrillers in the years
to come. Thank you. Nidhi, thankyou. No, it

was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

Unknown (51:58):
Hope you enjoyed this episode of Books and Beyond with
bound.

This podcast is created by bound, a company
that helps you grow throughstories. Find us at bound India
on all social media platforms,

Unknown (52:10):
and tune in every Wednesday as we peek into the
lives and minds of somebrilliant authors from India and
South Asia. You.

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