Author Spotlight: B.S.H. Garcia (The Heart of Quinaria)

An interview with author B.S.H. Garcia about her prequel novellas From the Ashes and From the Depths, both of which are part of her epic fantasy series, The Heart of Quinaria. Full disclosure: there are spoilers in this podcast, but only regarding the novellas.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to Books Undone. I'm your host, Livia J. Eliot, and today we

(00:17):
have another spotlight with a self-published epic fantasy author whose prose and workbuilding
all be from the first paragraph, B.S.H. Garcia. Bethany, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you so much for having me. So my name is Bethany. I write under B.S.H. Garcia because
all epic fantasy authors have to have initials, right? But yeah, I released my first book

(00:42):
about a year ago and it was a prequel novella for my main series, The Heart of Quinaria.
There are currently two novellas out, one full-length novel, and the second book in
the series is set to release this fall. So before we get started, let me make some
disclaimers. First of all, we will be deep diving into Bethany's novellas, namely From

(01:05):
the Ashes and From the Depths. The first one, you can actually get it for free by subscribing
to her newsletter. These two are prequels, standalone novellas, and our spoilers will
only be limited to them. We will not be discussing her main series, which she just mentioned,
and it starts with Of Thieves and Shadows. However, if I must add, the novellas add so

(01:29):
much more to the world and I really recommend that you read them. Second, what you will
hear is our subjective interpretation of the book, which may or may not align with what
you got from reading. And that's okay. You can disagree. That said, since we have two
books to deep dive into, let's begin with From the Ashes, which is both the first one

(01:51):
published and the first in chronological order. This one is fast paced and quite dark, but
what struck me as a central theme is the weight of the consequences and the lack of a perfect
solution, especially in leadership. In this book, we see Igtheos and Elise, the rulers
of Cedar, having to deal with, I say, three problems at the same time. First, their duty

(02:14):
as sovereigns of a besieged city that is running out of supplies. Second, their beliefs about
the greater good, which leads Elise to hide these scrolls harboring knowledge and power.
And third, their need as parents to protect their child. I believe it's quite an intricate
plot and you owe it beautifully, honestly. But would you like to share what inspired

(02:36):
you to touch these themes? As far as the theme of people being put in difficult situations,
I'd say that's kind of over argued of my series. I really like to explore the gray areas of
life in so many ways, whether that's relationally or, you know, making individual life choices
or choices that affect entire nations of people. So most of my stories in the series, they're

(03:02):
going to kind of center on that because I think there is so much gray in our world.
And I think a lot of people are so quick to jump to conclusions as far as making things
black and white and having really strong opinions. And unless you're in somebody's shoes and
seeing all of the things that are being thrown at them, it's hard to understand. So that
was, I guess, first and foremost, what kind of embodied that theme for From the Ashes

(03:26):
was I wanted to explore, especially people in a leadership position, having to deal with
the decision that will impact not just their lives, but the lives of all of their people.
I guess the more plot based points in that sense, the scrolls are also something that
kind of interconnect the series as a whole. And From the Ashes in my main book was point

(03:47):
in history that I touched on briefly, but I always knew I wanted to go back and flesh
out that story because both Ictheus and Elise impacted their world at the time, both the
nation that they were leaving in and the one that Ictheus eventually flees to. I wanted
to kind of address to a couple dynamic where they were a team and in support of each other,

(04:10):
but also having varying opinions about how to do things. Because I think it's probably
a situation most people in a relationship or who have been in one can relate to loving
your partner, but not seeing things the same way and trying to find balance there. And
then especially when you throw a child in the middle, it just, it opens up a whole other
can of worms. So a lot of that too is just coming from my place as a parent and trying

(04:34):
to juggle my life and other people's lives and my children's lives and varying that way.
I thought that actually was quite realistic, you know, that sometimes they differ, but
at the same time they get angry at each other. It lasts a couple of minutes and then they
decide to talk it through. I thought it's a more realistic approach that also spoke
to me, especially because in fantasy it's either they don't have long standing partners

(05:00):
or that's how the book ends and we never find out. And in here we, the whole, it's not a
romance at all. It's just a setting, the fact that they are married and it's so important
for the plot and how they make decisions as well.
I definitely wanted to explore more non-conventional main characters with the novellas. I felt

(05:20):
like I actually had more freedom to do so. People tend to have a lot of expectations
with, you know, certain books and genres and I pushed those limits a lot in my main series
too, but with the novellas I'm like, you know, I'm going to just write people that I don't
feel like are seen as often in fantasy and circumstances like that. And you're absolutely
right so much of the time we have a usually a young single character and they're kind

(05:42):
of going through coming of age stuff or they're just like a rogue kind of gunslinger style
free spirit character. So adding the weight of having a complex background and a complex
relationship in my mind just really heightens all of the stakes because there's just so
much more happening for those characters.
That leads me to the next question, especially because yeah, they are both married, but they

(06:03):
are also in this position of leadership in the middle of a war and that's quite complicated.
Honestly, something that I found enthralling in your books is that you touch quite a bit
of politics without going too heavy on it. It's also not ideological. It's based purely
in your world. Something that struck me in From the Ashes in particular are your discussions

(06:27):
on how society changes. And very early at the start, there is a quote from Ixios and
I have it noted here because I thought it was striking. He said that the palace was
originally constructed as an institution for learning. It had since transformed into an
exclusive gathering place for the nation's unelected public servants and most recently

(06:49):
become the future home of a self-proclaimed ruler. It's not only there in From the Ashes,
which is the second novella that we pick up a few centuries after. One of the characters
are continuously commenting on how the world has changed and how their own native society
has been pushed away. And we see these drawing change within one society and the other that

(07:09):
sometimes they are at a breaking point.
So I am somewhat of a history nerd. That was my dad's background that he got his degree
in and I've always been fascinated with just the evolutions of different peoples and societies.
And it seems so often that the periods of peace are so short lived and it's hard to

(07:29):
maintain any sort of utopia because so many people are so rarely satisfied with where
something is. And I've definitely borrowed from all of my world building. I tried to
draw from all over our real world because I feel like it's more accurate to pull from
multiple peoples and periods of history. And I've always been fascinated, especially by

(07:52):
the really ancient world and how you almost reach that pinnacle of enlightenment. You
have all the Greek scholars and things and then you slowly watch the rise of the Roman
Empire and how the world changes at that period.
And so the time period for From the Depths is loosely modeled after that. It definitely
has other world building influences and it parallels, at least in that particular, in

(08:17):
the Nation of Azar that From the Ashes takes place in is just this cycle of they were kind
of the first civilization to evolve and they had worked to reach a very enlightened period
and greedy people got greedy and wanted to start laying down laws about what was okay
and who could have access to what. And so that building in particular in Cedar does

(08:38):
have all that history of this was supposed to be for everyone and a place of learning.
And it slowly got more exclusive until it finally just became a palace for a ruler.
Also what I found very interesting in your setting is that the effect that has on people.
You have books that they are set up from the perspective of somebody with leadership in

(09:00):
a leadership position, but you also have covered a lot of points of view from the people beneath.
They are generally not mentioned on fantasy or you have somebody who climbs a ladder,
but it's not somebody who remains in that position. In the next novella in From the
Depths, we see quite clearly the effects that had. And if we go on and read of Thieves and

(09:23):
Shadows, and I will keep the spoiler light there, we can see how much the world has changed
and how different it is from the time of Ictheus and Elise.
It's great having the scope of epic fantasy to really be able to explore a world's just
progression and it's crazy because sometimes the changes are so subtle. And then sometimes
you have like these very pinnacle events that change everything so drastically. Like the

(09:47):
circumstance in From the Ashes is definitely that way. It was a huge turning point for
one nation that impacted everyone's lives there, but then also the fallout of it going
full spoiler at the end when Ictheus ends up leaving at the end and when all is lost
and he's fleeing with his last survivors, even their paths ultimately change an entire

(10:08):
nation as well. Like when they get to Neharim and it's positive in that light in that way
and showing that sometimes there is like not changes and always bad. There can be hope.
We can do things that make the world better. Again, I do love a lot of like the nuance
and the gray. Whenever I sit down to write, I just kind of pour all of my questions onto

(10:29):
the page and I just want to poke holes in everything. I was actually raised in kind
of a fairly religious background and I took a lot away from it, but there were also a
lot of things that were close to me, which just gave me a very inquiring mind as I grew
and kind of has given me a unique lens to look at the world.
I want to follow up on something that you said, because when I read your books, I always

(10:53):
got this feeling that the world was lived in, that it was real, that it was plausible.
And I think it's because, as you said, how you handle the nuance, sometimes on the details,
sometimes on how the people react to a change and that makes it feel lived in and the scope
of it as well. It feels huge. And through the books, we can actually see that the scope

(11:18):
of a world is indeed epic.
I went to town on world building. Part of it, I mean, when I first kind of got the idea
for the world itself, it was just a couple of months of just hardcore research and world
building and notes. But so much of that has just grown as I've written the books and explored
things. And when I sit down and get into a character's head, everything is filtered through

(11:43):
them. I'm very much, even though I'm an epic fantasy and I've gotten that my books are
character driven and plot driven, it seems like it's right down the middle for a lot
of people. I'm a very character connected writer. So yeah, when I kind of get into their
heads and try to look at things from their levels, it shows me a lot about my own world
building that I didn't even know. I think it helps at least for me having a secondary

(12:05):
world like that because I can bring knowledge of our world, but I can shed a lot of those
limitations and just re-explore and reimagine things through that. Sometimes I'll be writing
and I'll like, I didn't know that I bought my world noted, put it in the world building
Bible and it just kind of goes from there. That's interesting. So let me go back to something
that you mentioned quite at the start on my first question that you tend to focus on exploring

(12:31):
characters that are diverse and different than something that comes to mind is Saria,
which is the daughter of Ictheus and Elyse. And she's a nightman, basically a mixed race
girl. The story implies that this was, quote unquote, not possible. It's also prohibited
by faith. I think that it's not really like, and there are quite a lot of resemblances

(12:55):
with arguments that are not uncommon in human history, unfortunately, and in the real world.
However, your approach was both subtle and powerful at the same time, because I thought
that you touched on the key points of being not part of either world, that you are there
in the in between. So that a big part of that is just directly from my life. My husband

(13:20):
and I have mixed race children and we are in a racial marriage and we've not faced,
thankfully too much prejudice on our end, but it's definitely something that I've seen
in the world. I'm familiar with. It's a subtle thing where we've come a long way as a people,
but there are still so many subtle prejudices that people carry even a lot of the time that

(13:41):
they're not aware of it. It just felt like it was something that I wanted to call the
light. I also wanted to have my children represented in fantasy books as well. So a lot of that
was again, when I was creating the world, like I have nothing against traditional fantasy.
I'm a huge Tolkien fan. I, you know, I love Game of Thrones. I love medieval, but I've

(14:04):
definitely been hit over the head with it. And I wanted to, I'm like, there's so much
in our world, so much diversity, so many, you know, peoples and cultures and being able
to write a world to me that felt more realistic because it was far more inclusive. There's
so many times that even, you know, like my husband and I will be like looking at costumes
and things from like some of our favorite epic fantasy stuff. And he's like, you know,

(14:27):
they're so feel people of color to cosplay as or to be, or, you know, to represent, especially
in traditional fantasy, as opposed to sci-fi. Sci-fi I think is a lot more expansive, but
a lot of fantasy is still somewhat limited in scope. I think that was just what inspired
it was my relationship with my family and then just wanting to write a world that rang
true to our world. It's unfortunately quite true in epic fantasy. I don't have anything

(14:52):
against it, but we generally have male protagonists with a very specific background. Every, everyone
else, especially women in epic fantasy, they tend to be relegated to the girlfriend, the
wife, or the mother, or something like that. In your book, we have really diverse castes
in Of Thieves and Shadows. And I think this is on the blur. We have a leader who is a

(15:15):
woman and we also have women in several other positions from positions of power to being
one is a mercenary, I think as well. So it shows, we also have that on the novellas that
we are touching and it feels, as you said, realistic. It feels that it's a world that
I can read, that I don't have to be wincing because I just get a mirror of the real world.

(15:39):
Exactly. I think there's a very, it's a, that's a subtlety. I really struggle with, I'm in
a reading river or something and people are like, you know, it's just not realistic for
a woman to be in that, or it doesn't reflect the time period, you know, and you need to
be true to history. And I think there's a way to have authenticity without repeating

(15:59):
dangerous patterns that we've repeated over and over again. And so I've strived to find
that sweet spot of having a world that feels authentic and somewhat echoing ours, but also
not having every single issue that ours has had. And I think giving or having all of my
world is very big and I have a lot of peoples and backgrounds and actually having multiple

(16:22):
nations and cultures and things has allowed me to retain some of, for example, Azar, not
so much in from the ashes, although it's starting to get to that point. And then definitely
later on is a lot more sexist, a lot more racist, but then you have, you know, the nation
of the Haram, which is very much, that's not a problem there. And I like also showing these

(16:42):
cultures against each other, you know, that like, just because this one has always done
it this way, this one never has. And again, it just reflects so much of our real world
and our real history, because you look at maybe some of the European culture background
maybe had a little stronger root in the sexism or whatever else, whether that was religious
based or whatever. A lot of more indigenous peoples across the world have had a lot more

(17:06):
equality always and forever. And so I've just, again, from all of my nerdy history research
and just taking tastes of our world and mixing it with my own perspectives.
At the end of the day, I think that is what it makes it feel realistic, you know, that
we have the diversity of cultures and that not every culture is a clone of the same root,

(17:30):
you know, basically, which tends to happen quite a lot. And let me bring up another point
because of this setting, we also end up having that diverse cast of characters and they come
from these different areas and that origin, it also biases our perception. And we can
see, for example, how a shot sees lies and the opinions he has about her that are very

(17:55):
specific because of his upbringing, we could say it's and then we have Ictheus, who is
a bit more open minded and has a completely different mindset. And at the same time, we
have this middle character lies and two people having contradicting views about her. And
that's again, quite realistic, because not everybody thinks the same.

(18:17):
It's so true, even within, you know, a shot and Ictheus, they're essentially of the same
race and from the same city. So in some ways, they have a lot in common, but you do get
to see the difference of even people who have the same background can choose to think differently
or can, you know, maybe it was parenting, maybe it was just experience. And I think

(18:40):
I like their juxtaposition because it shows that even though they had they both came from
more well to do families and had a similar past that Ictheus did choose to remain more
open minded and chose to make his step outside of his box and see other people's and explore
the world to the point where he ends up becoming the leader of a rebellion that's not even

(19:01):
you know, for his race. And of course, he's doing that alongside his wife. And she's a
huge part of it. But he's definitely a unique example of, you know, showing that you don't
have to just fall to your societal norms. And a shot is basically the antithesis of
that. And he's interesting too, because he at least respects Elise a bit more, because

(19:21):
of, you know, her intelligence and her ambition. And she was a part of the Prophet's order,
and ultimately is a thorn in his side. But yet he still he still looks down on her. It's
kind of like how you might look at a dog and be like, that's a very good dog, you're better
than the other dogs. And so he still has that, that racism and that sexism toward her and
for her, but yet he looks a bit higher about her, you know, like you're good for what you

(19:44):
are. And that was an important thing to explore too, is kind of like making pets of or setting
aside a certain type of person we normally don't associate with. And then in that way,
we're almost dehumanizing them even more.
He treats her in a very dismissive way. But yeah, you're good for what you are like there.
And even when he speaks, we feel this, that he doesn't believe that they are at the same

(20:07):
level, even when she has shown that she has every bit of a skill and even more than him.
Since we are talking about Eli's, I really liked her as a character, because I wouldn't
dare say that she's a strong female character, because that term is quite a bit used in a
negative way or two box characters that end up being cardboard. But she has power to the

(20:31):
side because she has his leadership position and she makes some very drastic choices, trying
to hide the scrolls and then trying to defend her child. But at the same time, she's vulnerable
and she's flawed. You know, she has fears and even if it is a very short novella, we
still get a lot from her. We see her doubts, how much she loves her husband, but at the

(20:52):
same time, how she agrees with him. We see quite a lot of her perspective and that makes
her quite a rounded character. So first of all, I'm amazed with what you managed with
her, because I thought it was one of the best well rounded characters that I have read in
a novella in quite a lot of time, but at the same time, it felt close to home.

(21:13):
So first of all, it makes me so happy to hear all of that. You have no idea. Elise was a
character that just, I knew I had to have Igthéos in the story because of historical
reasons. And I always knew that I kind of got a vision for who she was before she fully
came into being. My female characters, especially, I try to take extra care because like you

(21:36):
said, there's just this very negative connotation about the strong female character or, you
know, as some people refer to it, the guy with boobs, whatever else. And it's just,
it's so hard because on one hand, I'm fully in support of the sword swinging woman who
can do everything and doesn't need anyone. And there's a place for that character, just

(21:56):
like there is for male characters that are written like that. There is this, it seems
like a lot of female characters fall into the camp of being, they're so strong that
they're, they're Mary Sue's or they're a completely unrelated side character. Like
you said, they're just somebody's wife or daughter, mother, love interest. And I wanted
to, or I do with my writing, this probably won't change regardless of anything I write,

(22:20):
is trying to write women who are strong in their own ways, but are flawed, just exploring
what strength actually is. Because I think the world has a very masculine leaning concept
of strength. And so again, that ties back to the strong female characters. She has to
be physically strong or emotionally hard. And there's so much more, or so many other

(22:43):
ways that strength can actually manifest in a person, you know, of any gender. It's just
like, not everyone, but the world in general has kind of a closed lens of strength. So
coming back to Elise, I really wanted to showcase just how strong and powerful she was despite
not having crazy magic, not having insane strength, just that true inner strength. I

(23:05):
think what makes somebody or any character strong is having something that they are passionate
about and how much they fight for it, yet while remaining true to themselves and others.
Maybe that's kind of what radiates through her.
It also radiates through the other characters, I will say, because at the same time, the

(23:25):
father is not the distant guy who wants nothing to do with fatherhood. On the contrary, he's
very kind to his daughter. He also tries to protect her, to play with her, you know, it's
a more healthy relationship that sometimes again, it's not often shown in epic fantasy
when we generally either don't have parents or they are completely detached from the child.

(23:49):
What I really liked from this setting, which you also follow up with other characters,
not only with Ixios, but he's second in command as well and is a man can feel.
That's another thing I'm very glad to hear. I have to credit a lot of that to my own father.
He is very influential and just a lot of my reading background to begin with. He's been

(24:10):
a big reader, got me into reading, has been a writer as well. And so a lot of like, I
guess, if you see any like positive father relationships in my series, it's probably
somewhat inspired by my own father because he's always he's never been so insecure in
his like manhood that he's needed to have a front or be a certain way. He's always just
been so approachable and loving and very much like that. And then that's also how my my

(24:34):
own husband is with our kids. And again, just trying to I think it's so healthy to normalize
a wide variety of backgrounds, especially when we're so used to seeing the same things
in and out. So that's something that I'm glad does come through and stand out because it's
definitely something I strive to bring to my rating is just nuanced relationships and

(24:56):
just different backgrounds and things that we don't see a whole lot.
We can see sometimes the opposite with a shot. He's not very in touch with his feelings.
He's nice, but also I wouldn't call him a more stereotyped or traditional male character
in particular, but his way of seeing the world and seeing his role in it are very different

(25:17):
from Ixil's. And again, that brings a diversity of thoughts that you have in your characters
and how they view the world.
I think you need to have even the viewpoints you don't like in your story. And you can
definitely do it in a light to show that, you know, you as the author don't agree with
that, but it's important to have these varying backgrounds and thoughts because sometimes

(25:38):
it even strengthens the outlooks of the other characters, the ones that the people might
connect more with, but also by delving into characters with different or quote unquote
bad beliefs, you can better understand their actions, which gives the other characters
an opportunity to potentially fix the issue, right? Because if we don't even, if you're

(25:59):
not even exploring where somebody else is coming from, it's going to be hard to actually
address the issue spawning from that. Not that there's a lot of saving to be done with
a shot. He's pretty in his ways, but yeah, that's true. And since we are talking about
him, he has these racial, nary and superiority, right? And I think it's part of the longer

(26:20):
life span that they have. He has these common ideas of one race being more beautiful than
the other. And we have a whole scene with his lover that she comes in and he has very
strong opinions about how she looks compared to Elise. Of course, he also delves into the
idea of one race is there to rule and the other is there to serve. At some point, I

(26:42):
really liked Ixio's opinion of him. Ixio says, what a shot wants, it's an unjust world,
more so than it already is. And our people will not stand idly by and let that happen.
We are the true Nizerians, the true followers of Tchaik Tic, which again, it speaks a lot
of that clash of cultures that they are having and how even if they come from the same city,

(27:06):
they have completely different ways of seeing the war. Especially because at the end of
the day, Ixio's led his people to fight a shot and he's now seizing the city.
In my series anyway, it's an issue in that nation. So this is the nation ultimately becomes
a czar after this civil war and it was previously Nizar. So what a huge part of what led me to

(27:29):
that particular conflict was just knowing where the nation was headed to become a lot
more. It ultimately develops into like a dictatorship and it's very authoritarian, I guess with
them and something that is key even in the later parts of the series is that as a nation
falls, there are still people within it who maybe disagree with what their government

(27:54):
is doing or what the common beliefs are. I think it's important to not dehumanize an
entire people or an entire country or whatever else just because it leans strongly this way
or its leaders are making these decisions. So by having again Ixios and Ashat who are
from a very similar background, the same city and the same quote unquote superior race and

(28:15):
Ashat's eyes, it just goes to show that not everybody even when cut from the same cloth
necessarily agrees or acts the same way. And I think with the Neryans what's interesting
about them, they're essentially my take on elves. So yes, they have a longer lifespan
than humans overall just have they're known at least for being smarter, being healthier,

(28:37):
everything to having better builds, height, skin, whatever it is. And in some ways it's
almost kind of sci-fi like that, right? Where they're the race that like the ideal race
that's evolved beyond and the humans are just kind of the rabble. And so especially having
the longer lifespan, they really see it as it's so clear in Ashat's eyes that we are
so superior in every way. Why is this even a thing? I think we don't have as drastic

(29:02):
comparisons in our world, but there's still a lot of that ideology of like some people
really get in their heads and think they're so superior to other people or even to other
animals. And so that was just, I think, I think that's a recurring theme in my series
too. You see that come into play just a lot throughout the world is there's just a lot
of these subtle politics that are driving all of these bigger actions, even underlying

(29:23):
the magic. It's very subtle, but through the books is very obvious, at least to me, that
culture is not aesthetic. You have these rise and falls of civilizations and years passing
and we have from redefined borders to cultures and customs changing because in from the depths,
we can see that this change has already begun and they are already dividing within the Nereans

(29:50):
and then in of thieves and shadows. It's completely different. I thought that was not only interesting,
but another of those aspects of world building that make the world feel lifting because if
we look at human history, our cultures are not aesthetic. We have changed right through
history and when I'm saying change, I'm not only saying the borders and the names of a

(30:14):
country and the language, the culture, what we believe on and what the society concierge
to be the ideal at every moment. It also changes. Really fascinating to me just watching people
and nations and cultures just transform, rise and fall, evolve, devolve. There's so much
even in a nation as young as America. There's so much that's happened in just a couple hundred

(30:37):
years and yeah, I believe that's a huge component in my mind that you need when you're doing
secondary world building. You have, even if you don't include it all in a story or even
touch on it in the series, I, I, at least for me as a writer, I feel like I need to
know so much of my world, but I have no cards going back millions of years, thousands of

(30:59):
years. Like it's some of that's really vague, but it's, I think it's just, and then for
like the closer parts to the stories, like I've really had to sit down. And so I wrote
of Thieves and Shadows first. I released from the ashes just a month before and I wrote
that after. So I had a lot of the world building ironed out from writing the first book, but
a lot of the world building for from the ashes, the stage was set in a Thieves and Shadows

(31:22):
and the events, you know, take place 2000 years prior to the first book in the series.
So it was really important to know the world's history and then to look at it realistically
through our own history. And you know, what's happening to these nations? How are things
changing? Cause like you said, it's absolutely not realistic for a nation to stay static.
It's almost like increasingly rare that there aren't like these big upheavals and changes.

(31:46):
And especially when you throw something as intense as war into the mix, it really, really
changes every single nation that's impacted by that. And I think you just kind of put
everything back to square one. It doesn't bring true.
It doesn't only impact a single nation, it impacts the geopolitics, which you touch a
bit more on Thieves and Shadows, especially because we are following a character in a

(32:09):
leadership position. It changes the dynamic between the nations and from that, the world
as well. So something that I want to go a bit more in depth in a particular, a spoilery
point of From the Ashes, which is another theme that I think we have discussed and that
is Ashad's desire for power and the length he's willing to go for that power. In this

(32:32):
case, we have as a small recap, we have Elias and she hides these scrolls around the world
and Ashad sees his position in the city because he wants the scrolls and the power they can
give him. And that brings us back to the discussion of what we are capable of doing. They settle
on trading good as a relief for the besieged city and in theory, at least as cooperation,

(32:54):
but soon after they are all betrayed and massacred and Elias dies. And Ashad's decision to risk
killing her, which he actually succeeds in doing, is interesting because she was a kid
to the scrolls, yet at the same time, he knew she wouldn't give it up. And we don't get
his point of view, but my guess is that he'd rather leave no one with the knowledge of

(33:19):
the scrolls than risk them falling into someone else's hand.
I think what's interesting and in my opinion, what makes a good villain is, I mean, I love
the good evil cackle for no reason villain as much as the next person, but I think at
least for me as a writer, I want my villains to have authentic things driving them and,
or at least, because the people who do the worst things imaginable somewhere in their

(33:42):
mind, they think it's right. They think it's just, they think it makes sense, even if it's
really selfish, the motive. So for Ashad, he's gotten to the point where in his mind,
there's nothing to be reached with democracy and that he's very much of the belief that
you can't trust anyone, you definitely can't trust the common people. And, you know, power

(34:08):
so great needs to be held by the limited and worthy few, which I think is where a lot of
our monarchies came from is just this idea that you can't trust. And some people, a certain
character from The Thieves in Shadows, even some people really do think that like, it's
just too risky to let a wide number of people be a part of something or they're worried

(34:28):
that they're going to mess it up. And, and so I, that's mostly where he's coming from
is there's definitely a greed there, there's a superiority, but ultimately there's this,
this like in his mind, he deserves it and his people deserve it and he is the worthiest
and he knows her very well. I'll actually touch more on these characters in some prologues

(34:49):
and epilogue flashbacks later in the series. So I promise they are coming back, but we'll
learn even more of the events proceeding from the ashes. But essentially he knows Elise
fairly well. He knows they were a part of this same order and there was actually almost
a coup within their, their order of the prophets. And so he has a special bond to pick with

(35:10):
her, but he also, he does know her very well. He knows that she, as she mentions, even to
Igthios earlier in the story, you know, that I'm still going to do what I need to do for
the greater good of the world, even above you. I have to do what's, what needs to be
done, like to her protecting that power, that knowledge is even more important than her
own romantic partner. And so Ashad is aware of that. And at this point would rather just

(35:34):
take his chances with trying to find things through his own means by gaining all of his
power and then reaching outward. And again, he's just very selfish and impatient and doesn't
want to work with people at the end of the day. So he'll cut his losses and move on.
He also doesn't seem to be a person who will easily change his mind, even if the reason
is in front of his eyes. Because of that, I think all of the, what we see from him in

(35:58):
this novella, even if he's not a POV, is that he's just so set on the idea of racial superiority
that he's not going to change, even when Elise has done everything to show him that's not
the case.
Exactly. And unfortunately we've seen that in our own history many times.
Unfortunately. So in that note, do you want to move to discussing from the depth? In here

(36:24):
we follow two siblings, Conor and Karlaia. And I understand it happens a few centuries
after From the Ashes, right?
Yes. It's about, I try to keep my timelines a little like loose. I don't, I try not to
bash my readers over the head with this is this specific year. So it's roughly a thousand

(36:44):
years after From the Ashes and a thousand years before Thieves in Shadows. So kind of
right in the middle there.
A theme that struck me in From the Depth in particular is again the weight of responsibilities,
but also the family dynamics and how everyone is affected by each other's decisions. In
From the Depth, we have both the parent's dynamics, their infighting, their struggles,

(37:09):
their quest for a better setting for their children and how all of that affects Conor
and Karlaia. We also see the points of view of their children and how that infighting
damages them.
A huge part of choosing the younger characters for me, I knew I wanted to touch on Conor's
background because he's a main character in Thieves in Shadows and I really wanted readers

(37:33):
to understand more of who he was, especially setting the scene with children. If women
have issues in fantasy, then children have even more. It's just another group that I
feel like especially in fantasy sci-fi, you see your YA leaders all the time and you even
see your middle grade heroes and stuff, but you don't as often see children written from

(37:57):
a child's perspective, but with the themes of an adult book, I guess. So I definitely
love exploring again a variety of characters and I wanted to touch on these bigger issues
and these events that are happening, but through the lens of children because again, so many

(38:17):
people are impacted by decisions and again, the kids are so often painted as like they're
like pets, they're shrubbery, they're just the background. And so by flipping the script
and putting the whole story through younger protagonists eyes, I think I knew it was going
to be a bit of a risk because I know a lot of people see a character under 18, especially

(38:37):
if they're used to reading adult epic fantasy and they just close the book. And I even had
a couple of readers tell me that they were like a little hesitant to read one about younger
protagonists and, but I hope I kind of captured the subtleties there. I just felt like if
I'm writing a story about a family, especially a broken family who is more impacted by that

(38:58):
than the children, you know, you always want to choose, they say in writing when you're
choosing a character to write a scene from or to write a book from, you should write
it from the character who has the most at stake in that story, who has the most to go
through. And it was just always undeniably the kids for me in this book.
Even if it is kids, I thought it to be very dark, the story in general, but also subtle

(39:22):
and never explicit and less necessary. And something again, that we were mentioning in
epic fantasy, it's a bit uncommon to see the impact of the situations on younger protagonists.
We see them, you know, overcome everything that is thrown at them and remain healthy.
And that's honestly not realistic because yeah, we may overcome hardship, especially

(39:44):
poverty or that type of infighting, but we may not survive without the scars. And in
here, your characters have quite a lot of that.
It was so vital, especially given Konar and Karlai's eventual trajectory in the series
to show the intensity of their backgrounds and their pasts and show the complex people

(40:06):
they are because of their circumstances, because you're 100% right. It's one thing to break
your arm and heal from a broken arm. It's so much harder to heal from a broken heart
or a bad background. I feel like that weight isn't something, especially in your childhood
when you're so receptive to the world around you. I don't think that's something you even

(40:26):
ever fully shed. Even if you do work on yourself or through therapy or whatever else in you,
you find ways to cope or find ways to heal, those are still internal scars that you carry.
And so logical to me that the characters are going to be carrying all of that. And you
don't just shake off something like your parents fighting or, you know, taking it out on you.

(40:48):
That's not something that you just wake up the next day and you're over.
A poignant moment in the novella, it's narrated by Karlai when the parents are having a row.
The mother is a drunk. The father is focused on going on a new mission. And the children,
so Karlai and Konar, they are forced to sit down into this tense, ugly meal. And Karlai

(41:09):
thinks that, and this is a quote, the instability Amma caused in their home made Karlai want
to run away to carve out a life that she controlled. A few sentences after she explained that she
couldn't upset Appa, couldn't give Amma even more cause to scold her and treat her like
an overgrown babe. And it's an ugly and terrifying moment, but it also speaks volumes of how

(41:33):
the parents' emotional immaturity can traumatize their children.
If I've learned anything since becoming a parent, it's just how much the mood that you're
presenting in the home or how you're even carrying things that you wouldn't even think
would impact them does. And that scene in particular that you were mentioning was, it
was a tough one to write. A lot of this book took a lot out of me just cause there were

(41:55):
some really, really heavy family dynamics issues that they're working through. And something
interesting to, I think with Konar and Karlai is how they're presented with parents who
are at odds. And I think when most children have parents who are at odds, they feel a
need to side with one. It's hard for them to continue to like support both and they

(42:16):
in the process end up vilifying another parent. And so it's kind of Konar leans a bit more
towards his mother. He feels safer with her. They're a bit more alike where Karlai knows
deep down that her father's not doing the best, but again, her mother's a bit harder
on her and she really can't stand that her mother's an alcoholic. And so it's just,

(42:36):
it's kind of interesting cause that also impacts their sibling dynamic, even though they're
very close and they're each other's lifeboats. They're helping each other get through this
when their parents are more volatile, but then they both feel a bit safer with a different
parent, which causes even some strain between them.
Yeah. And we also have this feeling of those chapters in which they are enduring their

(42:58):
parents. It's like walking on eggshells. At least that's how it reads, that they are both
Konar and Karlai are doing things very carefully, not to upset one or the other because they
don't want anything else. You know, it's very realistic. I thought and as I said, sad because
especially with childhood trauma meals can be a problem for children in those environments.

(43:22):
And then again, it's something that is not often touched. It can completely change a
person's relationship with food, you know, in the future and with partnerships or couples
in particular because of those relationships that they have. And we can kind of see that
in the future with Konar.
Yes. Yeah. They definitely are both try to do as little as they can to trigger it. So

(43:45):
they are absolutely walking on eggshells in their own home. When they're coming in, they
can even kind of tell when a night's going to kick off a certain way. And then they're
doing everything in their power to just not let it escalate further. They're trying to
just pass the meals around and then, you know, it gets to the point where the parents they're
fighting is getting so bad that they're even dragging their children into it, even though
they don't want to be a part of it. I just, I wanted to paint all of those circumstances

(44:11):
for what they are. I didn't, I definitely don't like to glorify any type of cruelty
or violence or abuse in any way. But so, and I think when it's shown, it needs to be shown
in a way where you can connect with the characters and just step into the world that they're
living in. So I didn't want, I definitely didn't want to glorify it, but I did want

(44:32):
to make readers really uncomfortable. I wanted them to feel what the children are feeling
in the home and how it impacts so much of their decisions and how they operate for the
rest of the story. And then beyond that,
we also have some points of view from Kaliya that she's hyper aware of what the parents
want from her. Like the father is talking to her and she's like trying to guess what

(44:54):
he wants just to give the correct answer, not to trigger something else. It was a bit
for, at least for me, it was difficult to read because she honestly felt tense and scared
about her father, you know, what, what he could do and not triggering another situation
like that.
Kids are so much smarter than we give them credit for. And they're both in survival

(45:16):
mode when their parents are fighting, they don't want the wrath to continue, but they
also don't want it directed toward them. And so I think it activates, especially in
Kaliya, kind of activates that pleasing with her father, trying to get his approval, trying
to, she works very hard to be on his good side. And in some ways, because he is the
biggest one, the scariest one in the house or whatever. So if she, she'd much rather,

(45:38):
you know, her mom's not going to do anything to her. She doesn't think. And so it's, she
definitely needs to be on dad's good side and please him. And then there's that weird
almost like, you know, you see it with people who are in abusive relationships of any kind
where they're there. There's not only that protective, you're not only trying to protect
yourself by trying to get that person's approval, but then there's also that weird psyche of

(46:03):
like, Oh, they're proud of me. And you still like get that weird positive response, like
pride almost, or like gratefulness that you got the right answer. You did the right thing.
And there's just so many complex emotions, especially in a family unit or in somebody
you've lived with or loved. And that was key plot, like for outside of like the exterior
applied say that the plot B for this book was just this family and how they do deep

(46:26):
down love each other, but they're just not doing a great job of it. And they're not showing
it the best way. And all of their scars are coming out and creating new scars on their
children. And it's just, it's tragic.
It's also unstable, I will say, because they go from moments of having these huge tensions
between them to moments in which it thinks quote unquote, everything is fine. And in

(46:48):
reality, it isn't. And I have another quote that actually really struck me. And it's
Kaliya who says she had a crazy feeling that they were one wrong action or war away from
losing their control the winners that instability that can actually cause more damage. We tend
to think that sometimes that's fine because now it's peaceful again, quote unquote. But

(47:10):
as we said, it's like walking on eggshells. They never know. And that actually impacts
them impacts Kona and Kaliya.
100%. It puts you in like a constant state of flight or fight. And so even when you're
enjoying the moments, you're just waiting for like the next thing to happen. And it
makes it to where so much of life isn't even enjoyable at that point, because you don't

(47:32):
know when it's so you see them having like their little moments of solace. And that's
why they've created their own little sanctuary under that waterfall, you know, in that little
cave. And that's like, that's a really special place for them, because it's like their escape.
It's the one place that they can go where they know the parents won't find them. And
obviously, you don't write all of these details into the story. But I know if they for me,

(47:53):
that that's been their place for years that they've even gone sometimes when they've heard
their parents fighting and don't want to approach it or whatever. And so it's just a lot and
it does force the characters to grow. It forces people to grow up more when they're faced
with harsh stuff, which is sad. And it also makes them I think, read a bit more above
their age, just because they've had to deal with so much more, they've been forced to

(48:15):
grow up faster because of the instability in the home.
We also see the impact in their characters and in their personalities, because Kona ends
up growing up so fast. You know, sometimes he's a child, but he has this adult trait,
you know, that he behaves in a very mature way for his age. And I think it's also because

(48:36):
he's always trying to protect Kalaia and to perhaps intuitively act as a father she doesn't
have. And on the other hand, Kalaia goes from being very mature as well to doing very childish
things when the parents aren't looking. And that's, it's not inconsistent to me, it's
just a result of trauma. She wants to freely be a child, you know, and to enjoy her childhood.

(49:00):
And she does that when the parents aren't looking, because that's the only safe moment.
Because you're hitting all the nails on the head 100% with them. She there is that when
you see kids that are forced to grow up, they still want to be kids. And if they're not
allowed to, they're just going to bottle that up and then let it out. And so Konar is a

(49:20):
bit better at holding it together. He's a little bit older. And he's also got that oldest
child syndrome where he feels like the second parent, especially in this scenario. And she
does her best to live up to her parents standards as well. But she's, she's, she's always been
a bit more of a wild card of a person anyway. And I think even at this young age, she's
already kind of wanting to rebel against how the how things are happening. She's feeling

(49:46):
so controlled and trapped at this point in her life. Even though she's still a kid, like
she there's there's been so much thrown at her and so many expectations and in her eyes,
so much of it is unfair. And so something that's really driving her is just like, I
want that control. I want that power. And at this stage for her, it's just like, I want
power over me. You know, I want control over me. I want a say, I want freedom. I want to

(50:08):
do what I want. And so yeah, you see that coming out of it more in her and a little
more freedom and her when the parents aren't looking.
And sometimes when even Konar isn't looking, because sometimes he feels like that second
father he's trying to unconsciously be and it's drowning her. Or at least that's how
her POVs feel.

(50:29):
Yes, he already at this age for Konar too, he's already struggling with his life feeling
out of control. And he wants everything orderly because I think struggling with the the insecurity,
the instability in the home, if he can micromanage Carlaya, he can better, you know, control

(50:50):
them around their parents. So ensure the safety.
Yes. So she's just kind of more wild. And again, he's doing it all from a very loving,
you know, intention. But I think that's just kind of another argument and a big theme in
this story, too, is just a lot of people are coming from good intentions, but that good

(51:11):
intention does not mean that the outcome is going to be good.
Touching on that, let's move a bit more into the quote unquote quest that there is in this
book. Again, it's for power and riches. And we have Corandon, the father, who is a pirate,
and he sent on a quest and Sora, the mother, they end up embarking their family to retrieve

(51:33):
one of the scrolls that we were discussing before. And that literally brings ruin to
their already broken family. Regardless their faults, Corandon and Sora, they are perhaps
like Ixios and Elise, you know, faced with impossible decision of acting for the greater
good, which is hiding the scrolls and what they end up doing, or protecting the family,

(51:53):
which would have been giving up the scrolls, but saving their lives. To some extent, we
could say that both choices are good and bad. Both have advantages, both have terrible consequences.
And it's very difficult to say, okay, in their position, what will you do, especially when
you haven't reached the novel ascending yet.
It comes back to just my whole desire to put these characters in these situations where

(52:19):
myself and the readers would kind of be like, gosh, I don't know either. Like I don't, maybe
I don't fully support this, but I at least get it. I think that's something that I want
people to feel about most of anybody I do at POV ever. I have close to a POV character
is like, I don't expect people to like all of my characters. I even struggle with some
of them, but I do want people to say, okay, you know, I get where they're coming from.

(52:43):
I get this motivation or I get this horrible situation they were put in where there's not
a good option. And one thing that I wanted to do, especially with Coranda and Zora, that
the parents was you see a lot of the worst of them at home through the kid's eyes. And
I wanted to still give them moments in the story where you could see them fighting for
in their mind, what was the best for their family? Because in their mind, they're looking

(53:06):
for stability and ease and they're just wanting the job to end at all. Like that's especially
Appa's or Coranda's his overarching flight in this book is just that he's tired of it
too. He's tired of the fighting and being gone and he's even done with his piracy. He
doesn't like that. He's been kind of under the emperor's thumb being really used in his

(53:28):
own way. And so it's very tantalizing for him to have this, I can have my dream life
and I can have my freedom. And it just comes back to he's even feeling controlled and he
wants to be done with that where Zora is much more, she would prefer to just have the simple
quiet life. She would be okay with them just working. She's not as power hungry, I guess.
And yet she's also just got this darker outlook on life from her background. And so just watching

(53:55):
them come from their very different backgrounds, again, there are two characters who are from
a similar region. They're the Zalo-Ossi Islands, but she is from an almost ostracized group
of people. The women that she was raised with, they're basically witches and they're looked
down upon by Azar because Azar has basically colonized the Zalo-Ossi Islands and they are

(54:20):
trying to impose their religion on the people and do away with their old ways of life. So
within the last thousand years, since the events of From the Ashes have happened, Zora's
order that she was from has just, they basically turned their own people against their old
ways. And so there's just this whole context with her and where she's coming from, trying
to fight against that where the father has kind of been more esteemed despite being a

(54:44):
pirate. He's from like a higher, a well-known family on the island. And so again, just their
backgrounds being so drastically different and then trying to bring their own traumas
and their own beliefs and navigate again with children. So there are definitely a lot of
parallels between the novellas.
That brings us back to that idea of cultures not being static because at this point we

(55:06):
also have that change in the Neisserian culture. We have how he looks down upon her because
of her culture, how the mother wasn't allowed to share her culture with the children because
it's quote unquote inferior. And that also raises some tensions, especially when, for
Andon, he ends up having some mistresses and affairs and they are apparently from a, again,

(55:31):
quote unquote, higher position than her.
Yeah. There's just loads and loads of baggage with all of these characters and their backgrounds.
It's hard to see it because you would think somebody there together that love can overcome
anything. And I do believe it can if both parties are feeling the same way, but he has
definitely grown away from her and let some of his own beliefs back, or especially the

(55:54):
people that he's hanging out with and associating with are speaking poorly of her. It's kind
of a double edged sword when he then calls upon her to use her culture, her beliefs,
her powers, so to speak, to help them. Meanwhile, everybody on his crew is talking crap behind
her back and is upset that she's led them there. And so, so many layers behind their

(56:16):
relationship that the kids are also dealing with. And I think even if a child doesn't
understand the intricacies of everything that's happening, they can still sense the underlying
feeling that dad thinks less of mom or he's with other women or she's drinking a lot,
but why? And so just a lot to explore there.
Definitely. And as you said, it's not that children don't understand those things, we

(56:40):
end up marking them and we can see some of the side effects again without touching too
many spoilers on Of Thieves and Shadows when we meet Konar again. After I read Of Thieves
and Shadows first and then when I read From the Depth, I was like, ah, everything comes
from here, you know, it ties up to everything that happened in childhood and how he's reacting

(57:03):
in the future because he may not be aware of the connection, but the connection is real.
Yeah, absolutely. I think so often I try to do a lot of my own reflective self work because
I think it is really easy to like when it's your own life or you're so close to it, like
you don't think to like connect those dots of like you think that wasn't a big deal,
that didn't really impact me that much in the past. And it takes some like actual like

(57:27):
looking to see how it connects to your future. And then so with characters, I think that's
huge. I have pretty thorough backstories written for almost all of my or definitely all of
my POVs and most of my main and supporting cast characters because again, even if I don't
bring that all to light excessively, like so much of the work for the stories is not
seen, but you have to have an understanding or I do as a writer to know where all of my

(57:51):
characters are coming from because your childhood shapes you. It's just so much of who you are
happens within, you know, your first like 10 to 20 years of your life and we can grow
and change and overcome, but we still carry that. And so understanding, I was so glad
to write this novella because I always knew, I knew Conor and Karlaia's past, but actually

(58:13):
sitting down to explore it so heavily was just such great character work for me to do.
And it's probably the most character driven thing that I've written and I really enjoyed
it and it actually helped me a lot with book two, which is coming up because there's some
more past that I'll be touching on. And so now that I was able to flesh out so much more
of them, it helps me understand my characters going forward. You know, I can even like I

(58:35):
sat down for them with coffee and they told me they're very dark pasts and it was, it's
a lot, but it's good to know them. You know, I definitely like view my characters as real
people.
That's what makes them feel so compelling because those effects are coming back for
the reader to read basically. And at the end of the day, the triggers, they are still triggers,

(58:57):
even if we cannot label them as such, right? And that happens to Conor a lot.
And like there's a so many things I've had, I have a couple of people who are beta reading
my upcoming book for me right now of Love and Loss. And all of my beta readers have
read everything I've written so far. And I've had a lot of comments because for a fun little
sneak peek, the prologue of Love and Loss picks up almost directly after the last chapter

(59:22):
of From the Depths. So we're actually back with Conor and Carlaya and we'll meet Rycol
the first time they meet him. But I had so many readers who were like, you know, just
their loving, like having had From the Depths because book two of Love and Loss is a really
big one for Conor. And so, so far everybody's just like, I just see his whole childhood
reflected here and all, you know, all this stuff coming back. And I hope it's still written

(59:46):
in a way where if people choose to not read the novellas, they'll still get the gist
of things. But definitely if people are like very character driven, deep diver readers,
I think From the Depths offers a lot for Conor.
Since you mentioned that, I thought that the ending was at the same time awful and incredibly
well written, right? We have, since this is spoiler, of course, the parents end up being

(01:00:10):
tortured and they end up dying. They are hung and their children end up looking at it basically.
We could argue that Corando and so the fathers suddenly to do the right thing, it ends up
stripping their family of everything. It changes the children identity in a way that is quite
dark. We have that epilogue that honestly I was reading it and ended up staring at the

(01:00:34):
wall because I just couldn't think like it's narrated from Conor's POV, but they lost their
identities and they are no longer who they were. So you chose to narrate them as the
boy and the girl. I thought that was an incredible detail. You know, it's so small and so powerful
at the same time because at least how I interpreted it was that their own identities were quote

(01:00:56):
unquote dead after what happened and after all, in true man, they are new people and
that literally trick of stripping them from their names, I thought it was super hard breaking
at the same time.
Thank you so much. There's something magical about the novella, at least for me having
written them both after the first book, I felt more confident and able to explore different

(01:01:21):
literary devices as I was writing those. So that was an intentional on my part. Originally,
I was just going to make it a Conor POV, but I'm like it there is such a huge shift. This
is like, this is the point in their lives that everything really changed. Like they
did they lost their identities, they lost their parents. It was the first time the scrolls
touched them in one way or another and ripped up from their home and you know, basically

(01:01:46):
forced into slavery. And so it was felt like I couldn't speak to them anymore from their
POVs because I even in this particular attachment, I even feel a bit more distant from them right
now. Like they're putting up their shells for the first time. And even though they're
still close to the other person, there's even that distance starting for the first time

(01:02:07):
between them in that epilogue. And so it felt right to write it more omniscient and to not
name them because they were at such an in-between stage there.
Yeah, honestly, after that ending, everything in Of Thieves and Shadows, at least from Conor's
perspective, his protectiveness to be a spoiler light there, it makes so much sense because

(01:02:31):
I read them in publication order. I was like, he's such a brat. And he's such an over-controller
and then when I got to From the Depth, it was like an aha moment. Now everything makes
sense and my opinion of the character changed completely.
I'm really glad to hear that. I knew a lot of people were going to have trouble with
Conor because of Of Thieves and Shadows and no spoilers, but I definitely, he'd say he's

(01:02:56):
the character that a lot of people talk to me about. They had to get like messages and
like I'm so angry at him. And you know, like when things are happening, like I like everybody
but him. And he, I always knew he was going to have a harder time. Like at least with
the first book, I knew people were going to definitely be resistant to him. So From the
Depth really provided a great opportunity to hyper-focus on him, even though he'll have

(01:03:19):
very special arc in the upcoming book. It just, it knew that if any character from the
series had a prequel story, it needed to be him because he has really the most history
from all the characters. And I'd say he honestly, out of all of our POV characters too, he's
had the hardest go at life by far. And so not justifying decisions that he made or saying

(01:03:43):
that I agree with what he did, but I'm hoping that at the very least, yeah, people can understand
him a bit better and maybe soften their hearts to him, you know, which is a tall order given
what happened. But, but I have, at least the people who have read From the Depth have expressed
how it's changed how they view him.
I think that the message is quite powerful because we are very quick to judge people

(01:04:09):
and characters as well. And we never know what they may have gone through. And in your
novella From the Depth, it makes it very clear that if you read it in publication order,
you can completely miss out Kona. And that's okay because at that point, we don't really
know his background. It also speaks volumes of how much we should dedicate to know other

(01:04:30):
people to actually understand them and try to have some empathy.
Exactly. I try to really make it clear when I do my very rare marketing because I'm horrible
at it. But I try to make it clear to people that a big thing in my stories, especially
the series, is morally great characters because I just, to like see just like the black and

(01:04:51):
white characters to me, you know, like the good guy and the bad guy in my mind. I'm like,
I come at it from the perspective that everybody thinks they're the good guy in their story.
And so when you write them from that way, characters who maybe don't make the best decisions,
you can still like other things they do. Or I guess it's kind of that save the cat concept,
right? People are familiar with the idea that if you've got a character that's not very
likable, you have them save the cat from the tree and it changes. And so a lot of the characters

(01:05:15):
that I write, they're not like perfect people. They don't always have, they're not making
the best decisions or maybe they're not thinking clearly in that moment or they're acting out
of emotion. And I just, I like to live in a world of characters who feel like to me,
that's what makes somebody feel three dimensional is like this, okay, you're flawed, but you're
trying, right? And so that's kind of where I think most of my characters are coming from.

(01:05:40):
And on that note, Bethany, this was such an amazing discussion. Thank you so much for
joining me and for giving me and the listeners so much insight into this amazing world you
have created. Yes. Um, first of all, thank you. I can say with 100% honesty, this has
actually been the most fun exchange I've had on any podcast or interview felt like we were

(01:06:00):
sitting down for coffee, which I love. So thank you so much for your time and for your
very deep and thoughtful questions. It's wonderful as a writer to be able to discuss the stuff
that's, you know, below the surface. So thank you for that opportunity. As far as, uh, where
you can find me, I do have a website, which is probably the easiest starting point. It's
just, uh, B S H Garcia.com and on there, uh, if you are interested in checking out from

(01:06:26):
the ashes with the first novella we discussed today, I leave that permanently free as an
ebook for anyone who subscribes to my newsletter. And if you don't want to be on my newsletter,
it's only 99 cents on Amazon. So I try to make that one very accessible. I do think
it's a great place to check out the series in the world building. If you're not sure
about diving into a full series yet, it's a relatively quick read. It's only 17,000

(01:06:50):
words. So it's kind of an afternoon for most people. My newsletter is the most thorough
way to keep in touch with me, but I am on all social media, just B S H Garcia. I'm probably
on Twitter and Instagram the most when I'm being reliable. And then for the series itself
to have the three books out right now, they're available on all platforms. And the second

(01:07:12):
book in the series of love and loss is going to be coming out in September. I don't have
a hard release date yet, but it will be coming soon. And again, this one ties really nicely
into from the depth. So if you end up reading from the depths or if these in shadows, I
think you'll love the direction of where love and loss is going. It's actually going to
be carrying over a lot more of the more intricate relationships and character situations that

(01:07:37):
I explored in the novellas. I've brought that over a lot more to the main series, I think
in the coming book. I'm on her newsletter and she actually answers so you can get there
and talk to her, which is very nice. So before we go, if you like this episode, please like,
subscribe, review the podcast and feel free to leave any questions in the comments. I
always try to answer. Likewise, if you want to get by size deep dives, pros analysis and

(01:08:02):
cut photos, because of course I'm a cat owner, please subscribe to my newsletter. The link
will be in the description. And that said, thank you so much for listening and happy
day.