September 21, 2022 • 38 mins
Today's episode is about #TheBear. It's on #Hulu, and so many restaurant and bar industry people have been talking about this show. I have to say I was late to The Bear. Basically, I don't trust anything on TV to get it right. There have been a few movies and a few TV shows here and there about the restaurant industry, and they miss it by a mile. You know every chef is spotless, the kitchen is super clean, no one is dirty, no spills. And that is bullshit. So, I was skeptical of the show. Then I started to see articles in the Atlantic, Bon Appetite, and the New York Times about how #TheBear showed the manic and toxic environment that restaurants can have. And I got hooked on the show and binged it one setting. That's how good I thought this show was and, more importantly, how I thought this show got so much right.
So today, I'm talking to San Francisco Chef Freedom Rains. Freedom has worked at restaurants such as Boulevard, Incanto, Flour, and Water and now is Executive chef at Amano in Hayes Valley. And we get his take on the show and restaurants in San Francisco.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey, Freedom.
Hey, how's it going?
Good.
You look great.
I haven't seen you inin two years, at least
At least.
Yeah,
a half.
Really.
probably.
Yeah, probably.
I don't think I've seen you pre pandemic.
Tell me a little bit howyou survived the pandemic.
I mean, we're still in it,but what were you doing?
2020, 2021.
(00:20):
We kind of had that, like, youknow, everyone knew something was
happening, then we're like, allright, everything's shutting down.
So then we like shut Amano down.
And like I had to lay like allmy staff off via text and then
get all their payroll ready.
And then my wife, she does finance.
So her office was done, school was closed.
And I think , maybe Istayed like three days.
And then finally I was like, I'm goinghome and uh, they were cool about it.
(00:42):
You know, they were like,alright, we understand.
And I was like, my wife can'thomeschool and work from home.
Like she has, like, I had hercomputer on a chess board on
top of the dining room table.
And like, my kids were going crazy.
So I homeschooled and Idid some zoom cooking.
It was interesting.
Like companies reached out andstarted like, Hey, would you be
interested in doing like teambuilding for like tech groups?
So they'd send me the ingredientsring, light cord, and I would just
(01:04):
set up my kitchen and then I'd havea host click in on the zoom and we
would do we'd cook risotto paellasometimes So I was like, whatever.
I was like, you know, youstill had to make money.
And then didn't really affect, I, Iwas collected unemployment, but yeah,
it was a weird, it was a weird time.
I don't think anyone really knewwhat to do with the free time.
No.
And I think it was reallyweird, cause it was like, oh,
(01:26):
it's gonna be like two weeks.
Oh, it's gonna be like a month.
And then you're like, wow.
It's like keeps going.
And then you're like, allright, like we're in summer now.
And now we're like in fall but I thinkit's really hard that people adjust now
because it's gonna take, you know, you'reforced to not work for a year and a half.
And then I think a lot kind of settles inand then you're like, okay, can you gimme
(01:48):
that like 200% effort you used to give me?
Yeah, I dunno if.
I don't know if I want to.
And I'm still freaked out because
Yeah.
of the past two years.
Oh my gosh.
Crazy.
So you're back at Amano.
Back at Amano I went back, I guessI lived in over a year and a half.
Back in Amano.
I opened our sister restaurantthat I consult on the menu for up
(02:10):
on Fillmore, California street.
It's called the Tailor's Son.
How's that doing?
Yeah, it's doing well.
I got a really good review onthe Chronicle about a year ago.
It's definitely is more officiatedas like a neighborhood restaurant.
You know, it's like Amano isdown in the theater district.
So you get a lot of innocentHayes valley, which is Hayes.
Valley's just like, you know,again, 20 years ago someone said
Hayes valley is what it is today.
(02:30):
You'd like, no way , you know.
Hayes valley to me is probably oneof the most gentrified neighborhood.
Like you would not, you wouldabsolutely not believe Hayes Valley
in the nineties is what it is today.
Yeah.
When I moved here 20 years ago, I droppedmy U-Haul off underneath that overpass.
And that was like a rough neighborhood,you know, there was Marlena's
and there was like fried chickenrestaurant and that was like about it.
(02:52):
And there was a Jewish deli andthat was like about an Absinthe
and that was like about it.
That fried chickenplace, Powell's Kitchen.
That was the best.
that was classic.
And then, yeah, it was, and then so inand out Soula and you're like, wow, such a
I know, I know, . Well, good.
I'm glad, you know, you made it.
And Amano made it and
Taylor's son made it I just hope that,you know, the next variance and the next
(03:17):
waves, we don't have to close down andwe go through this roller coaster and
more places shut down for good, you know,that's all I, you know, that, I think
that's probably the back of my mind.
What do you think about that?
About what's coming.
I feel like there's definitely gonnabe like another wave with something,
cuz obviously it's winter time.
It seems like, you know, and when youwork in our industry, it's like soon
as fall hits, you know, pre pandemic.
(03:38):
It's like that's when everyone startsgetting cold and sick, cuz everyone's
like touching a doorknob, touchingan ice machine or touching, you know,
every, and then a coughing in their hand.
And.
So it's like, it's gonna, like, youknow, but now it's like, it's not
just your typical like, oh, flu.
It's like, it's something else.
And so, you know, and then you werejust, I think hopefully a little bit
prepared for it, but it's you, it isjust every day is like a rollercoaster.
(04:00):
So you just don't reallyknow what's gonna happen.
It's like you just literallyflying by the seat of your pants.
Exactly.
So let's just segue right into The Bear.
Since you were talking about theseat of the sea of your pants
you've watched the whole show.
The entire, the entirety of it,
Yeah.
Really quickly.
Just what do you think about theopening about the dream and then when
(04:22):
he wakes up and he's just running.
yeah, I think I kindof like the whole show.
I, I liked it.
I liked it.
It was, it was cuz itwas very entertaining.
There was some things that, that hitit and then that, that running part,
you're just kind of like, man, it's like.
You know, and, and just pre pandemic, youknow, like when the restaurants were just
(04:42):
thriving and you're just cranking to massnumbers and like, you feel like things
are like kind of crumbling and you're justlike, your mind is just like, like, holy
shit, I am fucking like, beyond working,like any human type, like force of speed.
And then I think, yeah, I like that part,you know, it's like it's super serious.
And and sometimes you're, you're just mindand brain just like catches up to where
(05:04):
you're feeling like you're in a race.
Yeah.
It's like the racing.
And I thought, like, what I thoughtwas like, you know, you start
with that nightmare because we'veall had these nightmare dreams.
Yeah.
the, the work nightmares when,what was the, what was the last
time you had a work nightmare?
first time.
I, you know, honestly, I haven'thad a work nightmare in a long time.
When I first started cooking.
I think my worst, like nightmarewas like the ticket machine.
(05:27):
I was working in a restaurant.
I was like, 21 years old.
I was in Seattle.
I'm from Seattle and I got a job,you know, a friend was like, oh,
you know, get this job down here.
It's like, pretty much likeFisherman's Warf of Seattle.
And I'm working the station.
There was just like, wewere doing like 800 people.
And like, I just remember my ticketmachine was just like, just going off
and like the chef, just like lookingat me and was just like, just gimme
(05:49):
eight of everything and I'll sell it.
Like there's like nosystem, none, nothing.
And then just, I remember like wakingup in the middle of the night and
then just having that sound like
almost like, yeah, like you'regetting shot at or something.
You was like a gun going off
(06:10):
I agree, cuz those ticket machinesthere's that certain noise,
you know, chink, chink, chink,you know, and they, don't stop.
yeah.
And then the best is like, you know, it'slike in the pandemic, you're into it.
I remember.
So a chef like posted a pictureof a ticket machine and it was
like, he was like, who would everthink you had missed this thing?
(06:35):
That's a good post.
So another thing about this show, whichI do, like I do, I agree with you.
I think they get a lot.
Right?
What do you think about Carmy's tattoos?
Carmy's tattoos in the way hekind of dressed reminded me
of like, when the whole likeanimal butcher scene was coming.
Like, I don't know.
13 years ago when everyone wanted tobe a butcher and you had like these
(06:57):
tattoos and kind of like the grumpyshirt and like the big forearms.
And I was like, oh, this like,that takes me back the era.
Like when, you know, it was like,oh, I can butcher whole pig or
this restaurant does whole animalbutchery or like Incanto or something.
You're just like you're just kind like,eh, you know, it's like, but then you
look at kids now and they're like, youknow, you had like a 20 year old, 23
year old kid Come in the other day.
(07:18):
And he said he was a chef aroundthe corner, again, like fucking
tattoos all over himself and on hishands on the teacher, like 23 and
your hands are already tattooed.
Like what's the point?
Yeah.
And then I don't know, to me I'vealways felt like like, like line cooks,
obviously you don't see him any, likeit's a, I think being a chef is like
really hard and it's gonna, it might be acareer that's gonna phase out some days.
(07:40):
It's gonna be sad if it does.
But like when I moved to San Francisco,I felt like line cooks were described
it as like the last American cowboy,you know, like even bartenders
and everyone in that industry.
Cause you just, like, you justwent and you cooked, you had fun,
you got silly after work and thenyou went back and did it again.
And then you're like, I'm notgoing out tonight and was like,
(08:00):
which is one you're like, alright.
Gotta have something to cut the edge.
But no matter what you showed up towork on time, , you busted your ass
So I think the tattoos is definitelykind of like, I think that was kind
of more on the silly part, you know?
And it's like that kind of like, youknow, social media of like chef look,
you know, like you, the blue apron andthe shirt and the tattoos and cigarette.
(08:22):
I think all I needed like a, wasa scotch next to him or a whiskey
And he would've had the whole cliche
Yeah.
I had a whole cliche.
Yeah, maybe a PBR too.
Oh, that's the tall boy.
What do you think about systems?
Because systems are such a big thing
(08:46):
and you know, Carmy's gonnatry and change the systems.
Why, why is that so threatening?
Why are people so opposed?
Other than people don't like change?
We know.
But what, what is it?
It, every restaurant, I think almostevery bar, every bar or restaurant
that somebody comes in and triesto like do one thing differently.
It is utter anarchy and everyone loses it.
(09:10):
Yeah.
I, well, it, it takes everyoneon their comfort zone.
And you know, it's like when you kind ofcome in, it's like, like a consultant will
come in and be like, oh, you know, likeyou are taking steps one through 10, and
you're like, but if you do this, you'rekind of going steps like 1, 4, 6, and
10, and then taking that one through 10.
And I think that takes people outtatheir comfort zone, especially
(09:32):
if like an establishment that'sbeen around for a long time.
And you get your people who do their.
Everything they do every day.
And it's like clocking in and youknow, you do this at eight o'clock
and then at eight 30 you do that.
And then all of a sudden, someone comesin and is like, well, I want you to
do like more and less amount of time.
and, and sometimes like doing that islike more efficient because when you're
(09:52):
doing those, like everyday routines,there could be more, could be done.
You know?
It's like when you go, like a classicis like, Hey, when you go into the walk.
Put something away and you see somethingthat needs to get like consolidated.
You should just grab it and comeout and like consolidate it.
But people it's easier just to go in thewalk in, look at it and then walk out and
(10:12):
I think and I feel like now, like withthe, with the restaurants reopening, it's
like, there's so many new systems, youknow, it's like online ordering system,
the toast where you just pay at yourtable and then you just have a tablet, you
know, or the, or you use a QR code and.
And you're just like, so you don'treally have a server, you just have
the food runner and then, yeah.
It takes away the whole experience.
(10:33):
And then so yeah, it's just like,systems are just so interesting
and it's so hard to break people ofbad habits and up just old systems.
And you're like, you know, it's like, youcan't always live with an old system and
you gotta like, every me every day, I'vealways trying to think of like, how can we
do this better and more efficient without.
Working way too hard,but not working at all.
(10:58):
I agree.
. What about, you know, the flashback thathe has about the high end restaurant?
Have you ever worked at that level?
I wouldn't say at that level, but I think,you know, when I first started cooking,
so I moved to San Francisco to be a chef.
And and just that, yeah, like I wouldshow up to work, you know, half hour,
45 minutes early like on my way towork, I would think about how I can
actually set my station up faster.
(11:19):
There was more on my plate to do,to get my station set up, you know?
And then I think more or less, it's just.
Your chef is just someone who youlike really respect and look at.
And it felt almost like that parenthoodwhere you, the last thing you want
to do was like disappoint that chef.
Cause that was just like heartbreaking.
And if you're like, if you just likedid something and then they just
(11:39):
ripped you a new one, it was justlike, fuck that like really sucked.
And and I think that where he kindof, you know, it's like, cuz when you
in that, you know, zone and you're.
The last thing I wanna do is pissmy boss off or this person off
cuz they're highly respected.
And then all I want to do is just.
Be the best and maybe outdoeveryone so I can shine.
(12:03):
So I've been in environments, youknow, not as fine dining, but where
you're just like, I'm gonna show upand I'm gonna fucking do everything.
And if it doesn't work,I'm gonna make it work.
I'm gonna find how to make it work.
Cuz I, last thing I wanna do is likehave a crappy day at work and then
get talked to, or even like talk toafter work about like things I could
have done better when you're like,I thought I was doing pretty good.
Have you as have you ever spokento somebody in that manner?
(12:27):
No, not at all.
I luckily I,
I couldn't see you doing that,
no, usually I think a lot of my focusis like growing as, as like, I think as
like being a line cook and then walkingaway from all the chefs I've worked for
is like taking a little bit from them.
And I think it's just like when you'reon the line and you're like noticing
something it's best to just kindof like, Hey, like maybe like, Hey,
(12:49):
let's, let's not, let's not sell that.
Like, and then kind of explain to'em briefly of like, why we're not
gonna do that and then explain to'em and then I think it's more of
like showing them how to do it.
Right.
Or even just tasting overthat's like, you know, having
like, Hey, did you taste that?
And then you know, cause I it'sand then believe me when we
came back from the pandemic.
It was really awkward to cook foodand be like, and then taste it
(13:12):
and like throw all the spoon away.
But you're like, it's just weird tobe like, or should we taste this food?
Like, , you're like weshouldn to taste it.
Cause people are buying it and theywanna come here and eat, but you're
like, but everyone's like, You know,it's like a hand sanitizer washing
your hands and then they using a spoonand I'm like, taste it and throw the
spoon away and then put salt in it.
But then I got tastedagain, is it enough salt?
You're like, it's just the same,like cocktails, you know, you're
(13:34):
sticking your straw in there.
And then you're like, oh my God,I went through like 10 straws and.
Right.
But I've never reallyverbally abused anyone.
I, for me, I just feel like it doesn'tget me anywhere cause it's just gonna shut
someone down and then I'm gonna get the,I'm gonna get like the worst out of them.
Because like when you rip someone likethat, there's like really no coming back.
And then now you're, I don't,even if they'll come back to work.
(13:56):
Yeah.
What do you think about Sydney?
I love Sydney.
I thought the show was really abouther and just, I just loved it, how she
sees the problems and she wants to dobetter and she knows it can do better.
And when used to see herfrustration through that whole show
(14:17):
Her, character was like, is like, youneed, restaurants need people like that,
but people like that need the support.
You know, it's like if you know Carmywasn't going through all of his issues
and he was there to be like the backbone.
I think obviously the show wouldn't beas funny and , cause it would just be
(14:39):
actually changing, changing a, turning itinto a successful restaurant much faster
than I dunno all the episodes, but no,it's like, she is like a good example
of like someone who, you know, likethe ordering guides the system of like
where things go or check in consistencyand if like people could follow.
Chefs like that, you know?
And then things make, come so much easier,but it's like, I think if she had just
(15:01):
more support, that's what it takes.
You know, it's like it's like myfriend in the house manager at both
restaurants, you know, like, they'remy best friend, you know, it's like,
we we're in there together and yougotta support each other if you don't
like, you know, it's not gonna happen.
And I think I liked her a lot,you know, she definitely had that
very uh, millennial, like new showattitude, cuz it was like, you know,
definitely people hate changes.
(15:22):
Like we said earlier.
And then, and people don't like newviews of someone looking at something,
especially when someone younger.
But yeah, I liked her at her character.
It'd be interesting to see ifthey made a new series of it.
Like how it should Excel.
No, I, I agree.
Let's talk about Richie,love him, or hate him.
He kind of annoyed me, even though heis everyone, every restaurant bar work
(15:46):
industry environment has a loud mouth.
you know, it's like,you always got the guy
who, but it is like, I feltlike they over excelled his
character just to touch too much.
Cause it's just like.
You get a loud mouth and thenthey kind of get corrected
and then they're quiet again.
And then a couple days later, this volumestarts coming back up, but, you know,
(16:07):
but you get something out of the outof that person, you know, it's like,
oh, you know, you might be kind of a,a, you know, this person might be kind
of a shit, but like they come through.
So I felt like he was just therejust like, not really like,
just creating more problems.
Yeah, no, I I did not like Richie at all.
And then the very, very, verylast episode, something kind of
(16:29):
clicked and I warmed up to him.
mm-hmm
Because exactly what you said, everybar, every restaurant has a Richie and
I can't stand working with them with theRichie's, but then you see like, Tina.
She loves him.
They hug each other, they haveall this history and you're
like, well, what am I missing?
He's still kind of aDick, but you know, like
(16:50):
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
I think that was just kinda, obviouslythe history of probably cause of the
brother who own the restaurants, theyprobably worked, you know, it's like,
it'd be, it'd be, I always thoughtit's like, I'd like to see the, how
this place ran before it was took over.
Even though it was like grimy and kindof funky and like what his character.
Cause they just like, they justthrew him in and you're like,
(17:11):
okay, this is, guy's just allowed.
And then, so the scene or theepisode where Carmy and Richie,
they have to go do the hot dog or,you know, they they're catering.
Yeah
and you know, it's, it's pretty lowfor Carmy, you know, coming from
this elite and now he's catering,you know, this hot dog party.
, you know, have you ever hadto do something like that?
(17:33):
I'm I haven't had to do catering,but during the pandemic I did some
consulting and Not gonna say the nameof the restaurant, but it was a brewery.
And I was just like, we werejust like sitting there and it
was like cooking cheeseburgersand I was just like, oh my God.
And then just like, you know, to go food.
And then sometimes we justwould not be busy at all.
(17:54):
And I just like watchingNetflix on my phone.
so like, and and then cleaningand washing dishes and.
Just like, you know, when you getkind of in your career and then you're
just like doing something that seemslike you wouldn't be doing, and then
you're just like, this is doing it's.
Okay.
And I feel like I've never, I've didsome catering once I never done too
(18:16):
much catering, but I've definitelyhave been that pandemic cooked in,
you know, in an environment whereI was like, the hell am I doing?
I think a lot of people didthat during the pandemic.
Like what the hell am I doing?
You know, like yeah.
Picking up side gigs,wherever anybody could.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And then on then the same brewerywas like, oh, can you come down?
(18:38):
And I was like trying to comeup with like a street taco menu.
And I was like, I don't know.
and it was just like, I was like,I make tacos at home for my kids.
Like now you want me tomake tacos for the public?
I was like, yeah, that was, that wasan interesting, but I think, yeah, I
think that's about as close as I'vegot, is like out of my comfort zone.
(18:58):
Trying to like, do something that tomake someone happy that you're just
kind of like, why am I doing this?
Am I doing this?
I really need this money.
Right.
Yeah, no, no, no, exactly.
And then the whole thing, Ididn't understand this and maybe
this is like some inside thing,the ketchup and the hot dogs.
yeah,
I always put ketchup on hot dogs.
(19:19):
really?
Yes
I don't like ketchup and hot dogs.
I never have my kids do.
I don't, I feel like cuz a hot dog isalready kind of sweet cuz it's like,
you know that you know that snap of theskin and then the kind of the Mor Della
inside and there's and I, to me I'm acid.
And so it's like relish andmustard, so spice and relish
mustard to compensate the hot dog.
(19:41):
Honestly, I don't reallybig fan of ketchup at all.
Like I mix it with my mayonnaisewhen I eat French fries and
growing up is probably so funny.
Cause I was like, I, youknow, would see people do.
And they're like, oh,that's a European thing.
Makes me mayonnaise.
And ketchup is actually kind of delicious.
(20:01):
This combination is delightful,
Yeah.
thought
Yeah, I think it's just the bun.
And then just the kind of,cuz ketchup is sweet too.
Cause it's sweet salty and acidic.
And then with the hot dog, it just,yeah, just like the flavor profiles.
my God.
Yeah, I didn't get that at all.
I was like, oh wow, . I'm really missingsomething in the hotdog conno world.
(20:25):
You know, I, my, my FA ketchup
Well, it's like when everyonewas asking, if kept, if the
hot dogs considered a sandwich
is it.
I, to me, I feel like it is, but somepeople are like, no, because the, like,
I, cause like when I was doing zoomcooking, people were always asked,
like, what were my thoughts were?
And I was like, yeah, it's a sandwich.
Like, well, it's closed onone side and it's a tubular.
So is it like what makes sandwich?
(20:46):
Like why is it not a sandwichbecause it's not flat?
What do you think.
Okay.
That's wow.
That's I wouldn't, I that's new to me too.
The controversy of hot dogs over yeah.
sandwich
you know, and then so it's like, okay,well what makes it a, you know, it's in
between two pieces of bread and what's thedifference between a burrito and a wrap.
(21:08):
Oh God.
That is don't.
Don't don't say burritoUN in the same sentence.
Freedom.
No, come on that.
that's terrible.
Good point though.
I, that that's a great point.
When you see Sydney and Tinaworking together finally,
Yeah.
(21:29):
And like, Tina has this greatpride over her mash potatoes.
Yeah,
What did that, what didthat whole scene say to you?
that was.
I like that touched me becauseI definitely had a mashed potato
scene in my cooking and career.
You know, I was at that restaurantin Seattle and we would just boil,
we made mashed potatoes on allkinds of side dishes and on steaks.
(21:51):
And I remember the chef was just like,yeah, you just boil and throw 'em in
the mixer, throw the butter, throw thecream in there and like, yeah, mashed
potatoes and they're kind of soft andwet and they're like, okay, they're a
butt load of cream and butter in them.
I remember like when I first came likefirst, like I made mashed potatoes
and this guy was like, oh, we'regonna boil in with the skins on.
And I was like, well, howare we gonna like pure am?
He is like, well, you'renot gonna pure am.
(22:12):
You're make mashed potatoes,you know, mashed potatoes.
Shouldn't be like, like whip, you know?
And so, so like, I remember wewere like cooked potatoes and it
was like the longest procedureto make some mashed potatoes.
They were delicious pulled 'em outtathe water, put 'em in the oven.
So they kind of dried out, pulledthe skins off and then put it through
a ricer, which is like a food mill.
And then using a spatula to fold in.
(22:33):
The cream, the butter, and then we puta little salt and white pepper into it.
And then I was like, wow.
Okay.
Like now I understand, like I've beennot making mash potatoes correctly for
like a few years of my cooking career.
And honestly, it's a lot more structureand work into it, but you get that, like
that joy of like, okay, like I get it now.
And nice.
Still, like I had everyth Thanksgiving.
(22:54):
That's how I make my mashed potatoes.
Nice.
Oh, I love it.
But I just, I really enjoyed that scenewhere again, you see Tina like learning
and like she has like such pride,
Yeah.
And I that's like people, like when theymake something and they understand it.
It's like when you taste, like, whensomeone, like, when you see someone
else make something and then they tasteit and you see, 'em kind of smile and
(23:17):
understand it, then they, they get it.
And it's like, you know, it'slike, like, I don't know.
I guess you like your job, but.
If you're gonna do something for aliving, you should like enjoy it.
But then if you're like enjoyingsomething new and then tasting
something like, then that's awesome.
Cause then you're gonnaalways make it that way.
Mean, that was such a good scene.
I mean, there was a lot of, again,a, just a lot of moments I think in
(23:41):
that show that they just get so right.
Yeah.
know, it's exactly what you're saying.
It's, it's like a little silly, a littleover the top, but a lot of it, they
really kind of get the heart and thesentiment, like episode seven, right.
Where everything goes.
Right.
You know, like I mean, Sydney stabs,Richie, everything goes wrong.
(24:01):
Have you had a day similar?
Like that day?
Well, yeah, just recently, not someonearound got stabbed or anything, but
when we in, we introduced the thetablets, like the expediting tablets.
So like the expediter now doesn'tget tickets, they just have a screen
and then the table start flashing up
and You know, it's just like, it wasjust like, wow, like I don't get a
(24:22):
ticket, then all of a sudden you'relike, oh, there's a like table 23.
You're like, oh, table 60 table 40.
And you're like it just coming up.
And and then thekitchen's getting tickets.
So I'm like, well,they're getting tickets.
They know what's going on.
And then you're on this side and you'rejust like, everything's coming at you.
And then you're just like, Then your wholelike game changes to where you're like
focusing on every single little thing,instead of just like, oh, they giving
(24:44):
me table 23 this, this, this, and this.
And then you're like, now you're like,well, they just gimme all this food.
And now it's like a puzzlethat I have to pitch.
And then you're like a ticket comes uphere and then one comes here and then
you saw it there and you're like, ohshit, it's supposed to go that one.
Cause it's like and it was like thefirst two weeks of using the, the
monitor on the expo station was.
Mind boggling, and then just likestaring at the screen for so long.
(25:06):
And you're just like, you know,and it's, it was so easy for
things to just go to the wrongtable or not get grouped together.
But definitely that dayfelt pretty chaotic.
And when you're just doing likea full board service with no
printer, just a giant screen that
Oh, I'm already getting stressed for you.
So, yeah.
So then we cause so we still do to gofood, but we shut it off, like when
(25:28):
it gets too chaotic, but then all ofa sudden you're getting tickets and
then you start getting to go food.
And you're just like, what are I gonna
Oh, my God.
It's like, you need three minds, right?
Or yeah, three heads, threeminds to like, watch all of that.
And then you put it at the, togos..
My God.
That's like I said, I'm alreadygetting stressed for you.
(25:49):
I thought that.
Episode was done really well.
Yeah.
And I laugh and almost cry atthe same time when Carmy is not
responsive to Marcus's and Marcus,like just throws the donuts down.
Have you been, have you ever been like aMarcus in that situation where it's just.
(26:12):
You tried.
So, so, so, so hardand somebody just didn.
Yeah, I think there's definitelylike dishes, like I've thought of,
and I was just like, man, I've beenthinking of this dish, like all night,
been like watching YouTube videoson like how to execute something.
That's like out of my comfort zone.
And then I feel like I makeit and it's like really good.
And then, you know, like whenI was a line cook, everyone
(26:34):
wanted to be the best line cook.
So you're like, dude, I got this new dish.
Let's try it.
A dish.
You're like what?
Like, no way and then you're just like,no, they're just saying it sucks because
they, they don't, you know, they're justlike, we're trying to outdo each other.
And then later on down the road, you kindof compromise with that dish and then
(26:55):
you kind of format it into something elseand then it ends up coming onto the menu.
But just not that firstway you executed it.
Yeah, that sucks.
The worst words and the worst feedback.
And they show Carmy going backto Carmy what he eats when he
is off, when he's not cooking.
And it's a, you know, a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich.
Yeah.
That, that like,
(27:16):
Cause I do know a few chefsthat eat fast food and that's
it when they're not cooking,
you know, obviously that'snot all, but what, what do
you think about that portrayal
that was kind of like, I didn't get it.
Cause after I got done working likea, you know, an 11 hour shift, I
don't think the last thing I'd wantto do is go home and make myself
a peanut butter jelly sandwich.
I've definitely eaten many likeelectric burner quesadilla.
(27:40):
Just be like, I'm not gonna use a pan.
I'm just gonna do it on the burner.
Or a microwave quesadilla, youknow, throw out the cheese on
there, throw it in there 30 seconds.
Yeah, I didn't really get it the whole,like going home and eating peanut butter
and jelly sandwich and then having a Cokeand smoking a cigarette, falling asleep.
No my era.
I generally probably went out and hada couple beers and then got a burrito
and went home and then ate it, passed.
And woke up in the morning.
Didn't realize I didn'tfinish the burrito.
(28:00):
So I considered maybehaving it for breakfast.
Yes.
Why not?
Of course you should.
And another thing that I, I appreciatedis that they show Carmy's cookbooks
and sometimes, you know, with thecookbooks, it's almost like a snotty
thing or it was, you know, it, Idon't know if it's still considered
snotty, but I like the cookbooks,
(28:21):
Yeah, well,
yeah,
And what, what ones do,do you have any cookbooks?
And if so, what are a couple of your.
those my favorites.
I have like a lot of just older booksI've gotten recently is like, I got
this one of like it was like, ChrisCosentino gave it to me and I didn't
really get a chance to look at it.
It's just this massive,like Daniel Boulud cookbook.
And it's like just seeing like theold style of like French cooking,
(28:43):
European cooking, Italian cooking oldpasta cookbooks, and definitely like,
you know, there's all those, like theNoma book he had and the Benu and, and
I do own those books and I've like,remember buying 'em when they first came
out and it's like $80 for a cookbook.
And you're like, and then nowI look at 'em and I'm like,
maybe I should sell these.
Like, I'm never gonna makeanything outta these cookbooks.
And then actually during thepandemic, I took a break from reading
(29:06):
cookbooks and just like focused onjust reading other things, you know?
And then about three weeks ago, I decidedto pick up the Alice Waters Chez Panisse
I know so much about her and she's ahuge, you know, did amazing things.
And we hear so much about her, but Iactually, it was, it's a great book.
Was basically her whole story.
How she became and how she wasand through her whole life and
(29:28):
how Chez Panisse was just a house.
And they were cooking on a homestove and their walk in was actually
like three refrigerators in theback with a plywood covering it.
And That was like my firstlike actually like book I read.
And then you see like, you know,ACME bread is in there cuz I was
a bus boy who was testing breadand now he owns a massive company.
Laurel Chenel, goat cheese is in therecuz she used her goat cheese Judith
(29:50):
Roger, from Zuni Cafe is in there andshe was like this lunch sous chef.
And it is a cool story.
Cause you sees so many namesand you're just like, wow.
But like.
And the one dude the
Jeremiah Towers is in there.
Yeah.
His section is definitely, andthere's some things in the book.
I feel like a lot of people don'tknow about it and it is pretty,
there's some dirt, but it'sworth reading, but it's like it's
Hell yeah.
(30:10):
There's dirt.
Oh my God.
The seventies Berkeley.
I just like, I'm just like, I'mjust like, I need to probably get
back into reading, cook more bookcookbooks, but I'm just like, I dunno.
It's like, I just it's like whenpeoples like, oh, you tried this
new pizza pizza day at work.
I, yeah, I, I, yeah, it's not, it's hardfor you to excited about flour and water
(30:32):
right now, the pizza and the pizza world.
I love it.
So what, okay, so if The Bear wasfilmed in San Francisco, right?
What would you, what would beits challenges, do you think.
definitely staffing location, you know,it's like, we're always, like, I was like,
(30:54):
ah, I would like to do something on my ownwhere I'm like, where would you put it?
You know?
So I feel like San Francisco kind of hasits hotspots and then they just go away.
You know, it's like 10 yearsago, 15 years ago, Valencia
street was like the place to be.
And then it was like Divisadero.
And then it was like tender knoband then it was south of market.
And then now Hayes Valley.
(31:15):
And it's just like, I think a, to findthat key neighborhood is kind of hard,
you know, it's like, Think back on ourtimes, you know, before Uber and Lyft,
when you would go, like let's go to themission and you're like, you know, you
would go to Doc's Clock and then youwould end up over at Laszlo and then you
would end up over there cause you werekind of forced to be in a neighborhood
and you're not like let's just go here,get in my car, drive all the way to
(31:36):
across the city to go somewhere else.
That's cool.
And then go all the way across to another.
So you were.
Forced to stay in one area.
And I think that's, what's the hardestof the city's going through is like,
what is that area that's gonna have,like the successful restaurant, or
even grasp the neighborhood whereneighborhood's gonna want to eat
there, like more than once a month.
Yeah I, yeah, I see that.
And I definitely see the staffingissue, which I think goes into a
(31:59):
bigger issue of housing and howunaffordable the city is to live.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's crazy.
I mean, it's nuts.
I mean, it's kind of.
Gone down a little bit.
A little bit, but it's like, if you livein like the outer sunset and you work
in the mission and you got off work at aknow midnight, and you're gonna get home
(32:23):
to like two in the morning, if you tookpublic transportation and then you still
pay high rent, then you can take an Uber.
It's gonna be like 25 bucks.
So if you're in the serviceentry, that's a chunky or tips.
If you did that four nights a week,you know, you're just like, it's a
hundred bucks to get to get home.
Such a huge issue, which,you know, goes into staffing.
Where do you wanna see restaurants go?
(32:45):
I.
Just wanna see restaurants justcontinue, you know, me as, like, I just
wanted to see like more fun food, lessserious more welcoming, very inviting.
Like I'm not a big fan of reservations.
It's like that we don't takereservations cuz it's just like,
you know, everyone's welcome.
We'll get you in there.
And but it's just like, yeah.
(33:05):
I just feel like I just, I think withlike all the situations we've been
in, it's just like, I, I don't want.
We like to see more senses kindof very more neighborhood driven,
very friendly, not so serious, nottrying to prove a point, getting
good value, seeing the creativity.
You know, obviously likethe QR codes is a hard one.
Cause I wanna like have the serverdescribing the bottle of wine or, or even
(33:26):
just be like, Hey, what's your favoriteglass of wine that goes with this dish?
And then hear, I'm kind ofexplaining, getting excited about,
you know, some stuff like that,
Hey, Freedom.
Hey, how's it going?
Good.
You look great.
I haven't seen you inin two years, at least
At least.
Yeah,
a half.
Really.
probably.
Yeah, probably.
I don't think I've seen you pre pandemic.
Tell me a little bit howyou survived the pandemic.
I mean, we're still in it,but what were you doing?
2020, 2021.
(00:20):
We kind of had that, like, youknow, everyone knew something was
happening, then we're like, allright, everything's shutting down.
So then we like shut Amano down.
And like I had to lay like allmy staff off via text and then
get all their payroll ready.
And then my wife, she does finance.
So her office was done, school was closed.
And I think , maybe Istayed like three days.
And then finally I was like, I'm goinghome and uh, they were cool about it.
(00:42):
You know, they were like,alright, we understand.
And I was like, my wife can'thomeschool and work from home.
Like she has, like, I had hercomputer on a chess board on
top of the dining room table.
And like, my kids were going crazy.
So I homeschooled and Idid some zoom cooking.
It was interesting.
Like companies reached out andstarted like, Hey, would you be
interested in doing like teambuilding for like tech groups?
So they'd send me the ingredientsring, light cord, and I would just
(01:04):
set up my kitchen and then I'd havea host click in on the zoom and we
would do we'd cook risotto paellasometimes So I was like, whatever.
I was like, you know, youstill had to make money.
And then didn't really affect, I, Iwas collected unemployment, but yeah,
it was a weird, it was a weird time.
I don't think anyone really knewwhat to do with the free time.
No.
And I think it was reallyweird, cause it was like, oh,
(01:26):
it's gonna be like two weeks.
Oh, it's gonna be like a month.
And then you're like, wow.
It's like keeps going.
And then you're like, allright, like we're in summer now.
And now we're like in fall but I thinkit's really hard that people adjust now
because it's gonna take, you know, you'reforced to not work for a year and a half.
And then I think a lot kind of settles inand then you're like, okay, can you gimme
(01:48):
that like 200% effort you used to give me?
Yeah, I dunno if.
I don't know if I want to.
And I'm still freaked out because
Yeah.
of the past two years.
Oh my gosh.
Crazy.
So you're back at Amano.
Back at Amano I went back, I guessI lived in over a year and a half.
Back in Amano.
I opened our sister restaurantthat I consult on the menu for up
(02:10):
on Fillmore, California street.
It's called the Tailor's Son.
How's that doing?
Yeah, it's doing well.
I got a really good review onthe Chronicle about a year ago.
It's definitely is more officiatedas like a neighborhood restaurant.
You know, it's like Amano isdown in the theater district.
So you get a lot of innocentHayes valley, which is Hayes.
Valley's just like, you know,again, 20 years ago someone said
Hayes valley is what it is today.
(02:30):
You'd like, no way , you know.
Hayes valley to me is probably oneof the most gentrified neighborhood.
Like you would not, you wouldabsolutely not believe Hayes Valley
in the nineties is what it is today.
Yeah.
When I moved here 20 years ago, I droppedmy U-Haul off underneath that overpass.
And that was like a rough neighborhood,you know, there was Marlena's
and there was like fried chickenrestaurant and that was like about it.
(02:52):
And there was a Jewish deli andthat was like about an Absinthe
and that was like about it.
That fried chickenplace, Powell's Kitchen.
That was the best.
that was classic.
And then, yeah, it was, and then so inand out Soula and you're like, wow, such a
I know, I know, . Well, good.
I'm glad, you know, you made it.
And Amano made it and
Taylor's son made it I just hope that,you know, the next variance and the next
(03:17):
waves, we don't have to close down andwe go through this roller coaster and
more places shut down for good, you know,that's all I, you know, that, I think
that's probably the back of my mind.
What do you think about that?
About what's coming.
I feel like there's definitely gonnabe like another wave with something,
cuz obviously it's winter time.
It seems like, you know, and when youwork in our industry, it's like soon
as fall hits, you know, pre pandemic.
(03:38):
It's like that's when everyone startsgetting cold and sick, cuz everyone's
like touching a doorknob, touchingan ice machine or touching, you know,
every, and then a coughing in their hand.
And.
So it's like, it's gonna, like, youknow, but now it's like, it's not
just your typical like, oh, flu.
It's like, it's something else.
And so, you know, and then you werejust, I think hopefully a little bit
prepared for it, but it's you, it isjust every day is like a rollercoaster.
(04:00):
So you just don't reallyknow what's gonna happen.
It's like you just literallyflying by the seat of your pants.
Exactly.
So let's just segue right into The Bear.
Since you were talking about theseat of the sea of your pants
you've watched the whole show.
The entire, the entirety of it,
Yeah.
Really quickly.
Just what do you think about theopening about the dream and then when
(04:22):
he wakes up and he's just running.
yeah, I think I kindof like the whole show.
I, I liked it.
I liked it.
It was, it was cuz itwas very entertaining.
There was some things that, that hitit and then that, that running part,
you're just kind of like, man, it's like.
You know, and, and just pre pandemic, youknow, like when the restaurants were just
(04:42):
thriving and you're just cranking to massnumbers and like, you feel like things
are like kind of crumbling and you're justlike, your mind is just like, like, holy
shit, I am fucking like, beyond working,like any human type, like force of speed.
And then I think, yeah, I like that part,you know, it's like it's super serious.
And and sometimes you're, you're just mindand brain just like catches up to where
(05:04):
you're feeling like you're in a race.
Yeah.
It's like the racing.
And I thought, like, what I thoughtwas like, you know, you start
with that nightmare because we'veall had these nightmare dreams.
Yeah.
the, the work nightmares when,what was the, what was the last
time you had a work nightmare?
first time.
I, you know, honestly, I haven'thad a work nightmare in a long time.
When I first started cooking.
I think my worst, like nightmarewas like the ticket machine.
(05:27):
I was working in a restaurant.
I was like, 21 years old.
I was in Seattle.
I'm from Seattle and I got a job,you know, a friend was like, oh,
you know, get this job down here.
It's like, pretty much likeFisherman's Warf of Seattle.
And I'm working the station.
There was just like, wewere doing like 800 people.
And like, I just remember my ticketmachine was just like, just going off
and like the chef, just like lookingat me and was just like, just gimme
(05:49):
eight of everything and I'll sell it.
Like there's like nosystem, none, nothing.
And then just, I remember like wakingup in the middle of the night and
then just having that sound like
almost like, yeah, like you'regetting shot at or something.
You was like a gun going off
(06:10):
I agree, cuz those ticket machinesthere's that certain noise,
you know, chink, chink, chink,you know, and they, don't stop.
yeah.
And then the best is like, you know, it'slike in the pandemic, you're into it.
I remember.
So a chef like posted a pictureof a ticket machine and it was
like, he was like, who would everthink you had missed this thing?
(06:35):
That's a good post.
So another thing about this show, whichI do, like I do, I agree with you.
I think they get a lot.
Right?
What do you think about Carmy's tattoos?
Carmy's tattoos in the way hekind of dressed reminded me
of like, when the whole likeanimal butcher scene was coming.
Like, I don't know.
13 years ago when everyone wanted tobe a butcher and you had like these
(06:57):
tattoos and kind of like the grumpyshirt and like the big forearms.
And I was like, oh, this like,that takes me back the era.
Like when, you know, it was like,oh, I can butcher whole pig or
this restaurant does whole animalbutchery or like Incanto or something.
You're just like you're just kind like,eh, you know, it's like, but then you
look at kids now and they're like, youknow, you had like a 20 year old, 23
year old kid Come in the other day.
(07:18):
And he said he was a chef aroundthe corner, again, like fucking
tattoos all over himself and on hishands on the teacher, like 23 and
your hands are already tattooed.
Like what's the point?
Yeah.
And then I don't know, to me I'vealways felt like like, like line cooks,
obviously you don't see him any, likeit's a, I think being a chef is like
really hard and it's gonna, it might be acareer that's gonna phase out some days.
(07:40):
It's gonna be sad if it does.
But like when I moved to San Francisco,I felt like line cooks were described
it as like the last American cowboy,you know, like even bartenders
and everyone in that industry.
Cause you just, like, you justwent and you cooked, you had fun,
you got silly after work and thenyou went back and did it again.
And then you're like, I'm notgoing out tonight and was like,
(08:00):
which is one you're like, alright.
Gotta have something to cut the edge.
But no matter what you showed up towork on time, , you busted your ass
So I think the tattoos is definitelykind of like, I think that was kind
of more on the silly part, you know?
And it's like that kind of like, youknow, social media of like chef look,
you know, like you, the blue apron andthe shirt and the tattoos and cigarette.
(08:22):
I think all I needed like a, wasa scotch next to him or a whiskey
And he would've had the whole cliche
Yeah.
I had a whole cliche.
Yeah, maybe a PBR too.
Oh, that's the tall boy.
What do you think about systems?
Because systems are such a big thing
(08:46):
and you know, Carmy's gonnatry and change the systems.
Why, why is that so threatening?
Why are people so opposed?
Other than people don't like change?
We know.
But what, what is it?
It, every restaurant, I think almostevery bar, every bar or restaurant
that somebody comes in and triesto like do one thing differently.
It is utter anarchy and everyone loses it.
(09:10):
Yeah.
I, well, it, it takes everyoneon their comfort zone.
And you know, it's like when you kind ofcome in, it's like, like a consultant will
come in and be like, oh, you know, likeyou are taking steps one through 10, and
you're like, but if you do this, you'rekind of going steps like 1, 4, 6, and
10, and then taking that one through 10.
And I think that takes people outtatheir comfort zone, especially
(09:32):
if like an establishment that'sbeen around for a long time.
And you get your people who do their.
Everything they do every day.
And it's like clocking in and youknow, you do this at eight o'clock
and then at eight 30 you do that.
And then all of a sudden, someone comesin and is like, well, I want you to
do like more and less amount of time.
and, and sometimes like doing that islike more efficient because when you're
(09:52):
doing those, like everyday routines,there could be more, could be done.
You know?
It's like when you go, like a classicis like, Hey, when you go into the walk.
Put something away and you see somethingthat needs to get like consolidated.
You should just grab it and comeout and like consolidate it.
But people it's easier just to go in thewalk in, look at it and then walk out and
(10:12):
I think and I feel like now, like withthe, with the restaurants reopening, it's
like, there's so many new systems, youknow, it's like online ordering system,
the toast where you just pay at yourtable and then you just have a tablet, you
know, or the, or you use a QR code and.
And you're just like, so you don'treally have a server, you just have
the food runner and then, yeah.
It takes away the whole experience.
(10:33):
And then so yeah, it's just like,systems are just so interesting
and it's so hard to break people ofbad habits and up just old systems.
And you're like, you know, it's like, youcan't always live with an old system and
you gotta like, every me every day, I'vealways trying to think of like, how can we
do this better and more efficient without.
Working way too hard,but not working at all.
(10:58):
I agree.
. What about, you know, the flashback thathe has about the high end restaurant?
Have you ever worked at that level?
I wouldn't say at that level, but I think,you know, when I first started cooking,
so I moved to San Francisco to be a chef.
And and just that, yeah, like I wouldshow up to work, you know, half hour,
45 minutes early like on my way towork, I would think about how I can
actually set my station up faster.
(11:19):
There was more on my plate to do,to get my station set up, you know?
And then I think more or less, it's just.
Your chef is just someone who youlike really respect and look at.
And it felt almost like that parenthoodwhere you, the last thing you want
to do was like disappoint that chef.
Cause that was just like heartbreaking.
And if you're like, if you just likedid something and then they just
(11:39):
ripped you a new one, it was justlike, fuck that like really sucked.
And and I think that where he kindof, you know, it's like, cuz when you
in that, you know, zone and you're.
The last thing I wanna do is pissmy boss off or this person off
cuz they're highly respected.
And then all I want to do is just.
Be the best and maybe outdoeveryone so I can shine.
(12:03):
So I've been in environments, youknow, not as fine dining, but where
you're just like, I'm gonna show upand I'm gonna fucking do everything.
And if it doesn't work,I'm gonna make it work.
I'm gonna find how to make it work.
Cuz I, last thing I wanna do is likehave a crappy day at work and then
get talked to, or even like talk toafter work about like things I could
have done better when you're like,I thought I was doing pretty good.
Have you as have you ever spokento somebody in that manner?
(12:27):
No, not at all.
I luckily I,
I couldn't see you doing that,
no, usually I think a lot of my focusis like growing as, as like, I think as
like being a line cook and then walkingaway from all the chefs I've worked for
is like taking a little bit from them.
And I think it's just like when you'reon the line and you're like noticing
something it's best to just kindof like, Hey, like maybe like, Hey,
(12:49):
let's, let's not, let's not sell that.
Like, and then kind of explain to'em briefly of like, why we're not
gonna do that and then explain to'em and then I think it's more of
like showing them how to do it.
Right.
Or even just tasting overthat's like, you know, having
like, Hey, did you taste that?
And then you know, cause I it'sand then believe me when we
came back from the pandemic.
It was really awkward to cook foodand be like, and then taste it
(13:12):
and like throw all the spoon away.
But you're like, it's just weird tobe like, or should we taste this food?
Like, , you're like weshouldn to taste it.
Cause people are buying it and theywanna come here and eat, but you're
like, but everyone's like, You know,it's like a hand sanitizer washing
your hands and then they using a spoonand I'm like, taste it and throw the
spoon away and then put salt in it.
But then I got tastedagain, is it enough salt?
You're like, it's just the same,like cocktails, you know, you're
(13:34):
sticking your straw in there.
And then you're like, oh my God,I went through like 10 straws and.
Right.
But I've never reallyverbally abused anyone.
I, for me, I just feel like it doesn'tget me anywhere cause it's just gonna shut
someone down and then I'm gonna get the,I'm gonna get like the worst out of them.
Because like when you rip someone likethat, there's like really no coming back.
And then now you're, I don't,even if they'll come back to work.
(13:56):
Yeah.
What do you think about Sydney?
I love Sydney.
I thought the show was really abouther and just, I just loved it, how she
sees the problems and she wants to dobetter and she knows it can do better.
And when used to see herfrustration through that whole show
(14:17):
Her, character was like, is like, youneed, restaurants need people like that,
but people like that need the support.
You know, it's like if you know Carmywasn't going through all of his issues
and he was there to be like the backbone.
I think obviously the show wouldn't beas funny and , cause it would just be
(14:39):
actually changing, changing a, turning itinto a successful restaurant much faster
than I dunno all the episodes, but no,it's like, she is like a good example
of like someone who, you know, likethe ordering guides the system of like
where things go or check in consistencyand if like people could follow.
Chefs like that, you know?
And then things make, come so much easier,but it's like, I think if she had just
(15:01):
more support, that's what it takes.
You know, it's like it's like myfriend in the house manager at both
restaurants, you know, like, they'remy best friend, you know, it's like,
we we're in there together and yougotta support each other if you don't
like, you know, it's not gonna happen.
And I think I liked her a lot,you know, she definitely had that
very uh, millennial, like new showattitude, cuz it was like, you know,
definitely people hate changes.
(15:22):
Like we said earlier.
And then, and people don't like newviews of someone looking at something,
especially when someone younger.
But yeah, I liked her at her character.
It'd be interesting to see ifthey made a new series of it.
Like how it should Excel.
No, I, I agree.
Let's talk about Richie,love him, or hate him.
He kind of annoyed me, even though heis everyone, every restaurant bar work
(15:46):
industry environment has a loud mouth.
you know, it's like,you always got the guy
who, but it is like, I feltlike they over excelled his
character just to touch too much.
Cause it's just like.
You get a loud mouth and thenthey kind of get corrected
and then they're quiet again.
And then a couple days later, this volumestarts coming back up, but, you know,
(16:07):
but you get something out of the outof that person, you know, it's like,
oh, you know, you might be kind of a,a, you know, this person might be kind
of a shit, but like they come through.
So I felt like he was just therejust like, not really like,
just creating more problems.
Yeah, no, I I did not like Richie at all.
And then the very, very, verylast episode, something kind of
(16:29):
clicked and I warmed up to him.
mm-hmm
Because exactly what you said, everybar, every restaurant has a Richie and
I can't stand working with them with theRichie's, but then you see like, Tina.
She loves him.
They hug each other, they haveall this history and you're
like, well, what am I missing?
He's still kind of aDick, but you know, like
(16:50):
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
I think that was just kinda, obviouslythe history of probably cause of the
brother who own the restaurants, theyprobably worked, you know, it's like,
it'd be, it'd be, I always thoughtit's like, I'd like to see the, how
this place ran before it was took over.
Even though it was like grimy and kindof funky and like what his character.
Cause they just like, they justthrew him in and you're like,
(17:11):
okay, this is, guy's just allowed.
And then, so the scene or theepisode where Carmy and Richie,
they have to go do the hot dog or,you know, they they're catering.
Yeah
and you know, it's, it's pretty lowfor Carmy, you know, coming from
this elite and now he's catering,you know, this hot dog party.
, you know, have you ever hadto do something like that?
(17:33):
I'm I haven't had to do catering,but during the pandemic I did some
consulting and Not gonna say the nameof the restaurant, but it was a brewery.
And I was just like, we werejust like sitting there and it
was like cooking cheeseburgersand I was just like, oh my God.
And then just like, you know, to go food.
And then sometimes we justwould not be busy at all.
(17:54):
And I just like watchingNetflix on my phone.
so like, and and then cleaningand washing dishes and.
Just like, you know, when you getkind of in your career and then you're
just like doing something that seemslike you wouldn't be doing, and then
you're just like, this is doing it's.
Okay.
And I feel like I've never, I've didsome catering once I never done too
(18:16):
much catering, but I've definitelyhave been that pandemic cooked in,
you know, in an environment whereI was like, the hell am I doing?
I think a lot of people didthat during the pandemic.
Like what the hell am I doing?
You know, like yeah.
Picking up side gigs,wherever anybody could.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And then on then the same brewerywas like, oh, can you come down?
(18:38):
And I was like trying to comeup with like a street taco menu.
And I was like, I don't know.
and it was just like, I was like,I make tacos at home for my kids.
Like now you want me tomake tacos for the public?
I was like, yeah, that was, that wasan interesting, but I think, yeah, I
think that's about as close as I'vegot, is like out of my comfort zone.
(18:58):
Trying to like, do something that tomake someone happy that you're just
kind of like, why am I doing this?
Am I doing this?
I really need this money.
Right.
Yeah, no, no, no, exactly.
And then the whole thing, Ididn't understand this and maybe
this is like some inside thing,the ketchup and the hot dogs.
yeah,
I always put ketchup on hot dogs.
(19:19):
really?
Yes
I don't like ketchup and hot dogs.
I never have my kids do.
I don't, I feel like cuz a hot dog isalready kind of sweet cuz it's like,
you know that you know that snap of theskin and then the kind of the Mor Della
inside and there's and I, to me I'm acid.
And so it's like relish andmustard, so spice and relish
mustard to compensate the hot dog.
(19:41):
Honestly, I don't reallybig fan of ketchup at all.
Like I mix it with my mayonnaisewhen I eat French fries and
growing up is probably so funny.
Cause I was like, I, youknow, would see people do.
And they're like, oh,that's a European thing.
Makes me mayonnaise.
And ketchup is actually kind of delicious.
(20:01):
This combination is delightful,
Yeah.
thought
Yeah, I think it's just the bun.
And then just the kind of,cuz ketchup is sweet too.
Cause it's sweet salty and acidic.
And then with the hot dog, it just,yeah, just like the flavor profiles.
my God.
Yeah, I didn't get that at all.
I was like, oh wow, . I'm really missingsomething in the hotdog conno world.
(20:25):
You know, I, my, my FA ketchup
Well, it's like when everyonewas asking, if kept, if the
hot dogs considered a sandwich
is it.
I, to me, I feel like it is, but somepeople are like, no, because the, like,
I, cause like when I was doing zoomcooking, people were always asked,
like, what were my thoughts were?
And I was like, yeah, it's a sandwich.
Like, well, it's closed onone side and it's a tubular.
So is it like what makes sandwich?
(20:46):
Like why is it not a sandwichbecause it's not flat?
What do you think.
Okay.
That's wow.
That's I wouldn't, I that's new to me too.
The controversy of hot dogs over yeah.
sandwich
you know, and then so it's like, okay,well what makes it a, you know, it's in
between two pieces of bread and what's thedifference between a burrito and a wrap.
(21:08):
Oh God.
That is don't.
Don't don't say burritoUN in the same sentence.
Freedom.
No, come on that.
that's terrible.
Good point though.
I, that that's a great point.
When you see Sydney and Tinaworking together finally,
Yeah.
(21:29):
And like, Tina has this greatpride over her mash potatoes.
Yeah,
What did that, what didthat whole scene say to you?
that was.
I like that touched me becauseI definitely had a mashed potato
scene in my cooking and career.
You know, I was at that restaurantin Seattle and we would just boil,
we made mashed potatoes on allkinds of side dishes and on steaks.
(21:51):
And I remember the chef was just like,yeah, you just boil and throw 'em in
the mixer, throw the butter, throw thecream in there and like, yeah, mashed
potatoes and they're kind of soft andwet and they're like, okay, they're a
butt load of cream and butter in them.
I remember like when I first came likefirst, like I made mashed potatoes
and this guy was like, oh, we'regonna boil in with the skins on.
And I was like, well, howare we gonna like pure am?
He is like, well, you'renot gonna pure am.
(22:12):
You're make mashed potatoes,you know, mashed potatoes.
Shouldn't be like, like whip, you know?
And so, so like, I remember wewere like cooked potatoes and it
was like the longest procedureto make some mashed potatoes.
They were delicious pulled 'em outtathe water, put 'em in the oven.
So they kind of dried out, pulledthe skins off and then put it through
a ricer, which is like a food mill.
And then using a spatula to fold in.
(22:33):
The cream, the butter, and then we puta little salt and white pepper into it.
And then I was like, wow.
Okay.
Like now I understand, like I've beennot making mash potatoes correctly for
like a few years of my cooking career.
And honestly, it's a lot more structureand work into it, but you get that, like
that joy of like, okay, like I get it now.
And nice.
Still, like I had everyth Thanksgiving.
(22:54):
That's how I make my mashed potatoes.
Nice.
Oh, I love it.
But I just, I really enjoyed that scenewhere again, you see Tina like learning
and like she has like such pride,
Yeah.
And I that's like people, like when theymake something and they understand it.
It's like when you taste, like, whensomeone, like, when you see someone
else make something and then they tasteit and you see, 'em kind of smile and
(23:17):
understand it, then they, they get it.
And it's like, you know, it'slike, like, I don't know.
I guess you like your job, but.
If you're gonna do something for aliving, you should like enjoy it.
But then if you're like enjoyingsomething new and then tasting
something like, then that's awesome.
Cause then you're gonnaalways make it that way.
Mean, that was such a good scene.
I mean, there was a lot of, again,a, just a lot of moments I think in
(23:41):
that show that they just get so right.
Yeah.
know, it's exactly what you're saying.
It's, it's like a little silly, a littleover the top, but a lot of it, they
really kind of get the heart and thesentiment, like episode seven, right.
Where everything goes.
Right.
You know, like I mean, Sydney stabs,Richie, everything goes wrong.
(24:01):
Have you had a day similar?
Like that day?
Well, yeah, just recently, not someonearound got stabbed or anything, but
when we in, we introduced the thetablets, like the expediting tablets.
So like the expediter now doesn'tget tickets, they just have a screen
and then the table start flashing up
and You know, it's just like, it wasjust like, wow, like I don't get a
(24:22):
ticket, then all of a sudden you'relike, oh, there's a like table 23.
You're like, oh, table 60 table 40.
And you're like it just coming up.
And and then thekitchen's getting tickets.
So I'm like, well,they're getting tickets.
They know what's going on.
And then you're on this side and you'rejust like, everything's coming at you.
And then you're just like, Then your wholelike game changes to where you're like
focusing on every single little thing,instead of just like, oh, they giving
(24:44):
me table 23 this, this, this, and this.
And then you're like, now you're like,well, they just gimme all this food.
And now it's like a puzzlethat I have to pitch.
And then you're like a ticket comes uphere and then one comes here and then
you saw it there and you're like, ohshit, it's supposed to go that one.
Cause it's like and it was like thefirst two weeks of using the, the
monitor on the expo station was.
Mind boggling, and then just likestaring at the screen for so long.
(25:06):
And you're just like, you know,and it's, it was so easy for
things to just go to the wrongtable or not get grouped together.
But definitely that dayfelt pretty chaotic.
And when you're just doing likea full board service with no
printer, just a giant screen that
Oh, I'm already getting stressed for you.
So, yeah.
So then we cause so we still do to gofood, but we shut it off, like when
(25:28):
it gets too chaotic, but then all ofa sudden you're getting tickets and
then you start getting to go food.
And you're just like, what are I gonna
Oh, my God.
It's like, you need three minds, right?
Or yeah, three heads, threeminds to like, watch all of that.
And then you put it at the, togos..
My God.
That's like I said, I'm alreadygetting stressed for you.
(25:49):
I thought that.
Episode was done really well.
Yeah.
And I laugh and almost cry atthe same time when Carmy is not
responsive to Marcus's and Marcus,like just throws the donuts down.
Have you been, have you ever been like aMarcus in that situation where it's just.
(26:12):
You tried.
So, so, so, so hardand somebody just didn.
Yeah, I think there's definitelylike dishes, like I've thought of,
and I was just like, man, I've beenthinking of this dish, like all night,
been like watching YouTube videoson like how to execute something.
That's like out of my comfort zone.
And then I feel like I makeit and it's like really good.
And then, you know, like whenI was a line cook, everyone
(26:34):
wanted to be the best line cook.
So you're like, dude, I got this new dish.
Let's try it.
A dish.
You're like what?
Like, no way and then you're just like,no, they're just saying it sucks because
they, they don't, you know, they're justlike, we're trying to outdo each other.
And then later on down the road, you kindof compromise with that dish and then
(26:55):
you kind of format it into something elseand then it ends up coming onto the menu.
But just not that firstway you executed it.
Yeah, that sucks.
The worst words and the worst feedback.
And they show Carmy going backto Carmy what he eats when he
is off, when he's not cooking.
And it's a, you know, a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich.
Yeah.
That, that like,
(27:16):
Cause I do know a few chefsthat eat fast food and that's
it when they're not cooking,
you know, obviously that'snot all, but what, what do
you think about that portrayal
that was kind of like, I didn't get it.
Cause after I got done working likea, you know, an 11 hour shift, I
don't think the last thing I'd wantto do is go home and make myself
a peanut butter jelly sandwich.
I've definitely eaten many likeelectric burner quesadilla.
(27:40):
Just be like, I'm not gonna use a pan.
I'm just gonna do it on the burner.
Or a microwave quesadilla, youknow, throw out the cheese on
there, throw it in there 30 seconds.
Yeah, I didn't really get it the whole,like going home and eating peanut butter
and jelly sandwich and then having a Cokeand smoking a cigarette, falling asleep.
No my era.
I generally probably went out and hada couple beers and then got a burrito
and went home and then ate it, passed.
And woke up in the morning.
Didn't realize I didn'tfinish the burrito.
(28:00):
So I considered maybehaving it for breakfast.
Yes.
Why not?
Of course you should.
And another thing that I, I appreciatedis that they show Carmy's cookbooks
and sometimes, you know, with thecookbooks, it's almost like a snotty
thing or it was, you know, it, Idon't know if it's still considered
snotty, but I like the cookbooks,
(28:21):
Yeah, well,
yeah,
And what, what ones do,do you have any cookbooks?
And if so, what are a couple of your.
those my favorites.
I have like a lot of just older booksI've gotten recently is like, I got
this one of like it was like, ChrisCosentino gave it to me and I didn't
really get a chance to look at it.
It's just this massive,like Daniel Boulud cookbook.
And it's like just seeing like theold style of like French cooking,
(28:43):
European cooking, Italian cooking oldpasta cookbooks, and definitely like,
you know, there's all those, like theNoma book he had and the Benu and, and
I do own those books and I've like,remember buying 'em when they first came
out and it's like $80 for a cookbook.
And you're like, and then nowI look at 'em and I'm like,
maybe I should sell these.
Like, I'm never gonna makeanything outta these cookbooks.
And then actually during thepandemic, I took a break from reading
(29:06):
cookbooks and just like focused onjust reading other things, you know?
And then about three weeks ago, I decidedto pick up the Alice Waters Chez Panisse
I know so much about her and she's ahuge, you know, did amazing things.
And we hear so much about her, but Iactually, it was, it's a great book.
Was basically her whole story.
How she became and how she wasand through her whole life and
(29:28):
how Chez Panisse was just a house.
And they were cooking on a homestove and their walk in was actually
like three refrigerators in theback with a plywood covering it.
And That was like my firstlike actually like book I read.
And then you see like, you know,ACME bread is in there cuz I was
a bus boy who was testing breadand now he owns a massive company.
Laurel Chenel, goat cheese is in therecuz she used her goat cheese Judith
(29:50):
Roger, from Zuni Cafe is in there andshe was like this lunch sous chef.
And it is a cool story.
Cause you sees so many namesand you're just like, wow.
But like.
And the one dude the
Jeremiah Towers is in there.
Yeah.
His section is definitely, andthere's some things in the book.
I feel like a lot of people don'tknow about it and it is pretty,
there's some dirt, but it'sworth reading, but it's like it's
Hell yeah.
(30:10):
There's dirt.
Oh my God.
The seventies Berkeley.
I just like, I'm just like, I'mjust like, I need to probably get
back into reading, cook more bookcookbooks, but I'm just like, I dunno.
It's like, I just it's like whenpeoples like, oh, you tried this
new pizza pizza day at work.
I, yeah, I, I, yeah, it's not, it's hardfor you to excited about flour and water
(30:32):
right now, the pizza and the pizza world.
I love it.
So what, okay, so if The Bear wasfilmed in San Francisco, right?
What would you, what would beits challenges, do you think.
definitely staffing location, you know,it's like, we're always, like, I was like,
(30:54):
ah, I would like to do something on my ownwhere I'm like, where would you put it?
You know?
So I feel like San Francisco kind of hasits hotspots and then they just go away.
You know, it's like 10 yearsago, 15 years ago, Valencia
street was like the place to be.
And then it was like Divisadero.
And then it was like tender knoband then it was south of market.
And then now Hayes Valley.
(31:15):
And it's just like, I think a, to findthat key neighborhood is kind of hard,
you know, it's like, Think back on ourtimes, you know, before Uber and Lyft,
when you would go, like let's go to themission and you're like, you know, you
would go to Doc's Clock and then youwould end up over at Laszlo and then you
would end up over there cause you werekind of forced to be in a neighborhood
and you're not like let's just go here,get in my car, drive all the way to
(31:36):
across the city to go somewhere else.
That's cool.
And then go all the way across to another.
So you were.
Forced to stay in one area.
And I think that's, what's the hardestof the city's going through is like,
what is that area that's gonna have,like the successful restaurant, or
even grasp the neighborhood whereneighborhood's gonna want to eat
there, like more than once a month.
Yeah I, yeah, I see that.
And I definitely see the staffingissue, which I think goes into a
(31:59):
bigger issue of housing and howunaffordable the city is to live.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's crazy.
I mean, it's nuts.
I mean, it's kind of.
Gone down a little bit.
A little bit, but it's like, if you livein like the outer sunset and you work
in the mission and you got off work at aknow midnight, and you're gonna get home
(32:23):
to like two in the morning, if you tookpublic transportation and then you still
pay high rent, then you can take an Uber.
It's gonna be like 25 bucks.
So if you're in the serviceentry, that's a chunky or tips.
If you did that four nights a week,you know, you're just like, it's a
hundred bucks to get to get home.
Such a huge issue, which,you know, goes into staffing.
Where do you wanna see restaurants go?
(32:45):
I.
Just wanna see restaurants justcontinue, you know, me as, like, I just
wanted to see like more fun food, lessserious more welcoming, very inviting.
Like I'm not a big fan of reservations.
It's like that we don't takereservations cuz it's just like,
you know, everyone's welcome.
We'll get you in there.
And but it's just like, yeah.
(33:05):
I just feel like I just, I think withlike all the situations we've been
in, it's just like, I, I don't want.
We like to see more senses kindof very more neighborhood driven,
very friendly, not so serious, nottrying to prove a point, getting
good value, seeing the creativity.
You know, obviously likethe QR codes is a hard one.
Cause I wanna like have the serverdescribing the bottle of wine or, or even
(33:26):
just be like, Hey, what's your favoriteglass of wine that goes with this dish?
And then hear, I'm kind ofexplaining, getting excited about,
you know, some stuff like that,
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