June 11, 2025 • 44 mins
Our second installment of Borrowed Words has us talking about past presidents, prohibition, and admitting that sometimes, we just don't know.
Sources:
Sentence Stack, Bored Panda, Library of Congress, Symbolism and Metaphor, Word Origins, Phrase Finder, The Cooking Facts, Flavor Inside, History.com.
E-Mail the show at BorrowedBonesPodcast@proton.me
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Hey, out there.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm Sarah.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And this is Cole.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
And you're listening to Borrowed Words.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Oh, we're doing a different one today.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Yep that's our second one a series on the etymology
of words and phrases.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh yeah, interesting.
I have not prepared any thistime.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Nope, nope, I did all the preparation.
I'll have you guess what theyare before I talk about it and
we'll see how right or wrong youare.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Because you like to do a lot of this and I like to
speculate.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I don't know.
I wonder how this would haverealistically come up, how could
this were a phrase?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
And then, yeah, then we'll look up to see if we're
right or wrong this word orphrase and then, yeah, then
we'll look up to see if we'reright or wrong yeah, we do this
a lot, so I figured let's do itofficially instead of when we're
just shooting the shit yeah, atthe bar a few reminders up top
before we get into this.
We do have an instagram account.
I've said it for the last fewepisodes now.
I know early on I was veryagainst it.
(01:02):
I still have my own internalconflict with it, but I have it,
I'm doing it.
I'm in Borrowed Bones podcaston Instagram.
Check it out.
We still do have a blue sky andI did also make a Patreon.
It's a totally new platform andI don't really know what I'm
doing, but we do have onesubscriber, yay.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Allison.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
We love you.
Sound effects for Allison we'rein the big leagues.
Yay, I had to.
I feel like Allison would likethat.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
You got a laser in there somewhere.
Laser beam.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I don't know.
I'm getting annoying.
Now oh record scratch Wellthank you you, allison.
Yeah, I'm done with all thesounds now.
We appreciate you and, like Isaid, I don't really know what
I'm doing on patreon.
I do plan to post a few thingson there that won't be on my
instagram account.
Um, no episodes or anything onpatreon that aren't available to
(02:05):
everyone, though like all ofthe episodes will always be
available to everyone.
This is just extra shits andgiggles.
If you want to see us do videos, bonus features type stuff
right, I'm not really intomaking a lot of videos.
I'll do little snippets.
You'll see on Instagram.
But if you want more video andmore content like that, I will
do it on Patreon.
(02:26):
You have to pay for it, thoughit's hard for me to do.
It takes me a long time to dothat and if you want that, then
you have to pay me because,again, it takes time and you
gotta survive in this world yougotta survive in this capitalist
America.
Gotta love it, love it so much.
Well, I do love Allison andanyone else who joins, so that
would awesome.
I do plan to eventually getsome merch out there, starting
(02:49):
small with, you know hats andpins, that kind of hats, pins,
badges, stickers.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, stickers Mm.
Hmm, that's cheap.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, so we'll slowly but surely get there, and it's
it's something that we need towork on together.
The more you guys help, supportus, the more we can give back
to you.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
This whole thing has a learning curve, this whole
grand experiment that we'redoing.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yes, it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Mad scientists.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
All right, where are we?
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Our first phrase that we're going to talk about Hit
me Is.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
What if the phrase was hit me?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
that would be like holy shit it's not sorry, it's
raining cats and dogs.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
You know what it means yeah, it's heavy rain,
it's, it's, it's a downpour,it's a typhoon.
It's just won't let up the rainyeah, downpour, big rainstorm,
I don't.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
I had no idea what the origins were.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I know I looked this up once at one point in my life.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
You did, okay, I never did.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And that's even worse now because I'm having that
lethalogica of the tip of yourtongue.
But for a whole concept, giveme a second here.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Any guesses?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
All right, well, here's my.
This is just a shot in the darktheory okay thinking maybe in
the olden days of long, long ago, during heavy rainstorms, dogs
and cats, which would bepredominantly outside animals,
would start like clamoring toget in, maybe begging for
shelter to be let in.
(04:23):
So heavy rain signals cats anddogs are going to be at the door
, at the windows.
But that's just my, just aneducate, not even an educate,
just a guess, just a guess, umit, you're not off entirely okay
I found a few theories oh sothere's like different trains of
thought.
I like those two, and there'slike yes, we're not so there's
(04:44):
like different trains of thought.
I like those too.
And there's like we're notexactly sure there's two or
three trains of thought here.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yes, there is no real .
We don't know exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
No, definitive Nope.
This guy coined the term onthis date.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
There's even some which this isn't really fun, so
I didn't write this in.
But there's even some theoriesthat it's just down to old
English, that there was oldEnglish, that something to the
effect of like a catapult wasthe same word as waterfall.
It's raining like a waterfall.
It's raining like a catapult orhowever they pronounced it.
(05:14):
So there's that happening there.
But the two main theories areone in the 16th century england
houses had thatched roofs okaywhere animals would be able to
crawl into and stay warm okayand when it rained they would
(05:34):
all jump down or get washed downyeah, fall down, whatever okay
that one has been proven to notbe true, or most likely not be
true, just because they're noton the roofs.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
They're just not and like and dogs, maybe cats, but
no dogs.
Yeah, what dog hides?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
yeah, yeah what most likely it is is dead animals
like cats and dogs, streetanimals after a bad rainstorm,
because there was poor drainage,so they would get swept away
and flooded.
So it looked like it had rainedcats and dogs oh, that's like
it's been raining cats and dogs,and then it turns into more of
(06:13):
a it's raining cats and dogs.
You see the river of dead animalcarcasses see they flow down
from the sky yeah it's deadanimal carcasses, redundant yeah
, yeah, you think people died ofbeing swept away in, like
that'd be so strange there waspeople that died being swept
away by that molasses riverexplosion at least that was
(06:35):
something different and strangeand weird.
It's not like oh, there's arainstorm today, get inside, you
might Like that's if it rainshard enough, you're going to
well, yeah, floods, but this issuch a common phrase.
I'm assuming it's just a heavyrainstorm, like when we get
maybe a couple inches of rain,but because the streets are so
(07:00):
poorly drained, everything justfills up, fills up and washes
down like a river.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
It just creates a river, every time Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Oh man, that's things you don't think about.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
It's a dirty time to be alive.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
This is a scary time, it's filthy.
Ugh, all right, so the next one.
We both know this one, so I didthis one thinking it would be
fun.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Pressure one.
So I did this one, thinking itwould be fun.
Oh god, pressure's on, what ifI forgot this one?
Don't worry, it's okay, allright, blood is thicker than
water, oh okay, yes, so blood isthicker than water.
When people use that phrasetoday typically means that the
family bond is stronger than thefriend bond yeah, like blood
meaning family, yes, strongerthan those.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
You have a meal with, you have water with, whatever.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So your blood is thicker than water.
All right, do you have an ideaof where this came from?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I believe I looked into this before it was around
kind of the opposite, meaningthat the blood you shed in
battle with your fellow soldiersis thicker than the water in
the womb, the amniotic fluidthat you would share with a
literal sibling, a twin, or justin general.
(08:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Am I correct in that assessment.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
No, oh shit, right, that's that assessment no.
Oh shit Right.
That's also what I thought itwas too.
I thought that as well, until Iresearched it even further.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Is it the more boring standard one?
We all think it is.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
I mean I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
It's not a yes or no, okay, so you got to strap in
for this one.
Okay, all right.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Oh, you got to strap in for this one, okay, all right
.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It is believed that the full phrase is the blood of
the covenant is thicker than thewater of the womb.
Exactly what you thought.
Okay, However, was that theoriginal phrase?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
It's not.
That's what I discovered.
Okay, so the first phrases arefrom or the first time it's seen
really is in Germanic andScottish Proverbs.
Okay, so the first phrases arefrom or the first time it's seen
really is in Germanic andScottish proverbs.
Okay, and the earliest referenceto the phrase blood is thicker
than water is in a German poemin 1180.
(09:18):
It's been around for a while.
Okay, yeah, so there'sdifferent, like iterations of it
.
Okay yeah, it's been adaptedover the centuries More
centuries than I would havethought, though I thought it was
yeah, so there's different likeiterations of it.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Okay.
Yeah, it's been adapted overthe centuries, more centuries
than I would have thought,though I thought it was, yeah,
world War I, not 1100s.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, more recent, the quote in 1180 in German says
I moreover hear it said familyblood isn't demolished by water.
So family blood is notdemolished by water.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And the thinking here is that your family ties don't
lessen when you separate by anocean.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, when you travel , when you go far away, rivers,
lakes, oceans doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
So it's still saying that the family blood bond is
strong.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
So did we get confused there?
Maybe, I don't know.
Some say that Henry ClayTrumbull wrote that phrase in
his writing the Blood of theCovenant in 1885.
He does have a chapter that istitled Blood is Thicker Than
Water.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
But he never says the entire phrase, as we thought it
was with Water of the Womb oranything like that.
It's just the chapter titlethat's it okay now the thought
is that over the years, peoplemixed up another phrase, another
arabic phrase that was createdindependently they don't have
anything to do with each otherconvergent evolution yes, and
(10:41):
this one is blood is thickerthan milk.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Meaning milk of the mother.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So blood of your brother, the blood pact or
brother in arms like we weresaying that's how they're
thinking of it.
Yeah, means more than themother's milk.
Yeah, yeah.
So the thought is that,basically, we heard this phrase
merged it with blood is thickerthan water, created this random
(11:12):
blood of the covenants, thickerthan water of the womb, or
whatever I think, cancel culture.
I think, as we got more andmore into our society in america
, whenever the phrase was turnedinto the water of the womb, I
think we were just sick of beingwith.
Now the next one.
I always forget what the originof this is and I feel like I've
(11:36):
asked you before so you mightknow, but there is quite a bit
to this story that I didn't know.
Okay, all right, so to86-something.
Something has been 86-ed.
It's 86-ed.
Oh shit.
Thing has been 86.
Um, it's 86, oh shit.
So the meaning of 86 is usuallyin an industry term.
(11:57):
If you're bartending restaurantanything like that, you've 86
an item.
That means you're out of it.
We don't have it anymore.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
It's gone 86 pickles 86 a person.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
You kick them out you kick them out or you stop
serving them.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Okay, I don't remember.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I know I always forget this one too, because
it's weird.
It's weird, so let me tell youthe story of 86.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
This is a story.
Is this the grave depths ordimensions?
Okay, yes, listen up.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Kind of Not really, but it's a theory.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
It's one of them.
So this one took me longer thanI expected, because this was
quite a ride.
Like I said, we typically hearit in restaurants and bars today
86, this 86, that I mean.
There's even boards that youhave in the kitchen in the back
that have 86 on them.
There's a list of hopefully nota long one, but a list of
what's missing or what you don'thave or what you ran out of
(12:51):
Gotcha.
The term dates back to the1930s, when soda jerks became
more popular and they were theones that started saying 86
whenever something ran out.
But, why 86?
Right.
So I'm like, okay, well, it wasalready popular with soda jerks
(13:11):
and they made it popular in theculture.
But where did they get it from?
Why are they using that number?
For it's gone?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
is it a measurement of?
The capacity of a soda therewas.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I did read a quick theory, which this isn't true,
that during the depression era,um, during the depression, sorry
during the depression, soupsorry.
During the depression, soupkitchens could only give out 85
bowls of soup and 86.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
But that's not true.
That's not true at all.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
That's just people talking.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
It's a retroactive explanation.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
However, bartenders during Prohibition who worked at
a certain New York speakeasycalled Chumley's which was
located on 86 Bedford Street,they had police on their payroll
during the prohibition.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Unheard of.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
They would call ahead .
The police would call thebartenders ahead of time,
knowing there was a raid comingyeah, and they would tell the
bartender to 86 the customersand that they should exit out of
the 86 bedford street sidewhile the police came in on the
other side from the other streetokay so 86 the customers, let
(14:27):
them go out the 86th street okayyes, there's, that's a saw the
most solid theory behind.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
It really does come down to a single address of one
speakeasy possibly.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
That's the leading theory, okay.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Okay, I like that.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Now there was also a theory which I don't know if
this is just coincidence,because I don't.
I don't think this is it, butit's interesting.
Article 86 of the us uniformcode of military justice
concerns absence without leaveor awal, which is article 86 of
us uniform code, whatever, and Ilooked it up just to confirm is
(15:09):
that even true?
Yes, oh, that is true, yes,okay it is 86, and that does
pertain to AWOL.
I didn't read all of it, I justsaw AWOL 86, and I said okay.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I don't like that theory.
That's so obscure.
I don't think it's real but itis quite the coincidence.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Now there's another theory which I do like just
because I'm a bartender, but I'mstill holding the chumley
speakeasy.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Okay, I'm, that's got to be.
Why that?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
was in new york.
In new york, yeah, now, upuntil the 1980s, whiskey only
came in 100 proof or 86 proof.
When a bartender would noticethat a patron was getting too
drunk, they would scale back andthey would put away the 100
proof whiskey I'm having troublesaying proof and then they
(16:03):
would scale back and take awaythe 100 proof whiskey and they
would give the patron the 86proof whiskey and then saying
that that customer was 86.
I don't think that's anything.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That was the 1980s.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I would.
I mean, I don't know for a fact, but I assumed the term to 86
existed well before the 1980s.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Oh, sorry, Up until the 1980s whiskey only had 100
or 86 proof?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah, so whenever, yeahback in the day I misinterpreted
that.
Yeah, misheard that this is astupid theory.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
I might even cut this one out.
Yeah, leave it in.
(17:04):
Updated their term of 86 in mayof 2025, noting that 86 has
been referenced as a term for tokill, but they stated that it's
truly not the case, that thisis such a recent way to use it
and it is so sparingly used andin only one niche area, that it
is not considered a meaning ofthe term.
So 86, according tomerriam-webster, in no shape,
(17:24):
way or form means to kill.
That's it, the end periodnicely said thank you,
merriam-webster.
Moving on All right, so 86,strong theory that it does come
from prohibition era, from aspeakeasy that was on 86 Bedford
(17:46):
Street in New York and policewould call and say 86 the
customers.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, Said I'm not on the 86th to the 86th door and
say 86, the customers, yeah, setthem out on the 86th to the
86th door.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yep, and I like that.
That's hard to say.
Yeah, I know.
All right, the next one yes andthis was also one that I would
always forget, and I think we'vespoken about this one as well,
but don't I for?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
spotlights on me.
This one, I don't know, I'mcoming up short I know it's fine
dollar short.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, just like your mama said.
Okay, all righty, do you wantme to leave it in?
Yeah, okay, our next one isokay oh, I believe I do know
this one hold on, give us themeat like okay, everyone know,
(18:34):
do know, this one Hold on.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Give us the meat Like .
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Okay, Everyone knows.
I thought this one wasinteresting because people in
other countries use this too,Even if they don't speak English
.
Everyone knows that okay iskind of just Isolated tribes
somehow will say okay.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, they've had I shouldn't say totally isolated.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
No, they can't be Once they've had limited contact
.
Okay, comes up.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
It's the easiest thing to say, but it's the best
non-committal affirmative.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Non-endorsing of something but still being.
Yeah, but it's more terse than.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, it's another sure kind of or okay yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I don't like when people spell it out Okay, a-y,
just the letters, no periods,okay.
And why is that, do you know?
Because, okay, yeah, we arerecording, had a double check.
Yeah, if I have this correct,in boston I believe it was in
the mid-19th century, amongstthe collegiate there was this
(19:32):
trend of college studentsintentionally using improper
spelling for common phrases andwords and they would say the
phrase was all correct, as inyou know all good, and they
spelled it O-L-L-K-O-R-R-E-C-Tand that got shortened from all
(19:54):
correct to okay.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yes, so you are almost all correct.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
You're very close.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Did I get the city wrong?
Speaker 1 (20:03):
No, no, no, no.
You have like the abbreviatedversion.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
That's it, so I'm going to give the meat and
taters of it all.
It was in Boston, okay, andduring this time there was a
general trend, not just theseBoston collegiates, though.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
I mean maybe amongst the upper echelon, the fops, the
dandies of the the people thatknow how to read and write.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, so that crowd the people that are reading
newspapers and being allilliterate.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Those are being all literate and shit.
Those who get a joke out ofwords being misspelled because
they know the proper way.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
But when I was doing my research, it was spoken about
or written about in a way as ifit was a general fad to
abbreviate words and to misspellthem, kind of the same way that
we would brb be right back.
Yeah, lol, laugh out loud.
Whatever, that, we don't needto abbreviate anything, we're
(21:00):
just choosing to.
I know how to spell, I know howto read I know how to write, I
just am choosing to be that wayOld newspapers, that's been a
trend.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Since we've been documenting.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So abbreviating things has been a trend and
newspapers have exchangedabbreviations, I guess, or those
fads.
Also, misspelling words was atrend, the same way that it's
been a trend for us.
Anything with an S turns into aZ, or cool is K-E-W-L.
Cool.
It was more of a joke and itcame about as a joke, and there
(21:34):
were two newspapers going backand forth, because back during
this time newspapers would jabat each other in like a playful
way, but there was no internet,there was no way to communicate
other than through newspaper,and so there was a Boston
newspaper that was talking toProvidence, rhode Island.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Oh, I was figuring like two rival newspapers in the
same major metro area.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
No, going to each other, not different areas.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
That's even funnier to me.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
The Boston newspaper editor was returning a jab, so I
don't know what he's saying, sohe's returned.
He's what's return.
Responding Responding yes, Iwas like what else am I trying
to say?
He's responding to somethingthat this Providence Rhode
Island journal has already saidto him.
All right, so bear with me.
It's really awkward to readbecause it's like 1880s.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah.
The Boston newspaper editor issaying that there are some
Boston boys who might bestopping into town in Providence
, kind of like heads up Warningya, some Bostonians are coming
to raise havoc, so wreak havocin your town.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
He says quote he of the Providence Journal and his
train band, so his people wouldhave the contributions box etc.
Ok, and then he clarifies allcorrect.
And then he says and cause thecorks to fly.
So it's really broken up.
(23:04):
Very difficult to hear, butthat was the.
The fad of the time ofnewspapers was to break things
up.
Okay, all correct.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You know dash dash here here, right.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
So basically he's saying there's some Boston boys
coming your way, providence guys, be ready to host them, be
ready to give them drinks.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Be ready to do it up.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Everything's going nuts, so okay, all correct.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
All correct.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
There were also some phrases.
I'd like to see the other fadsthat came into play as well.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Right.
So there were also otherphrases like no go N-O-G-O.
They would spell it K-N-O-W, sothey would have a K-G for no go
Okay.
Or they would have a K-G for nogo Okay.
Or they would do no useN-O-U-S-E, misspelling it as no
(23:57):
with K and then use with a Y, sothen K-Y for no use.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Is that how we got K-Y jelly?
No use O-K-Y jelly.
Yeah, why jelly?
Speaker 1 (24:08):
no use, okay.
Why jelly?
Yeah, but I wanted to know whydid okay stick around and none
of the other fads did?
Because even today, we're nolonger using brb or gtg or yeah
we're not saying we might typethem or we don't even type gtg,
or when was the last time youtyped brb?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I'm unfair.
I never typed abbreviations,I'm always either way.
When was the last time?
Speaker 1 (24:27):
someone told you that oh, exactly it started to drop
off a bit, because fads change,styles change.
Here's how it got in.
This is why it didn't die okay,yeah, no pun intended there was
a presidential election ineight oh shit in 1840, so
(24:48):
earlier I said 1880s-ish forthose newspapers back and forth.
It was actually 1820s, 1830s.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
I went the opposite way I thought it was a little
earlier.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
No, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
So it was earlier that the newspapers and the okay
boys were happening.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
The all-correct boys, the.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Bostonian boys, the all-correct Bostonian boys.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Keep those champagne cocks, poppin' boys.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Okay, so there was a presidential election in 1840.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Ooh, can I guess who ends up being the president out
of this 1840 election?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
You're pretty good at the president, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Let me just place the 1840.
I'm gonna go Seinfeldfeldreference.
I don't know was it numbereight martin van buren.
Oh, the van b boys.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Oh, is that?
Maybe that's why I was thinkingof the okay boys yeah, because
is that, is it the gesture?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
is it it, is it?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
No.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Okay, keep going.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Oh, kind of, because they do the eight.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, that's their sign in the Seinfeld the Van
Buren boy street gang.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Right, they flash eight fingers.
And they do the one hand withtheir thumb and their pointer
finger, touching, but that's notlike a white supremacy sign now
in the last few years.
But it used to be In the 90ssit was okay.
It was just A-okay.
In the 90s it meant A-okay.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, A-okay would be .
I'm all all correct.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah, I guess so yeah .
But wow levels for thatSeinfeld episode.
Whoa.
But yes, the presidentialelection in 1840 and Martin Van
Buren was given the nickname ofOld Kinderhook Kinderhook.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Kinderhook.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Kinderhook because his hometown of Kinderhook, New
York.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Okay and the Van Buren supporters would join OK
Clubs nationwide and they wereself-proclaimed OK.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
So they were Van Buren fanboys?
Yes, so Van Buren did have likehis weird cult of personality
he had stands, yeah that's weird, yeah you wouldn't think, and
he's like one of thequote-unquote forgotten
presidents now yeah, like youonly really know about him.
I guarantee most people are agebracket.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
If they know him at all, it's through the seinfeld
reference yeah, yeah, anyway,this all okay and van buren and
okay clubs and all of thisbecame so popular and so well
known that people startedbelieving that okay came from
van buren's campaign.
So some people might think itcomes from that, but it's not
(27:26):
the case.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
They took it from okay, yeah, yeah from the
newspapers and the yeah you knowall correct and they're maybe
making a little pun on italready by giving him the
nickname yes, he's all correct,playing on, I think they were,
because they probably still knewwhat it originally meant, but
yeah it was already.
They just made it even morepopular and thrust it into our
(27:49):
world forever yeah, one of thetheories I had heard was that it
originated in the civil war,because when commanders would
relate, after a battle or askirmish, their their casualties
, if none of their soldiers werekilled, they would just write
zero K and send that.
(28:09):
So the shorthand of zero killedwould obviously be a good thing
.
So what's the situation?
Okay Zero killed.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Zero killed.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And then that's oh yeah, everything, it's okay,
it's okay, it's okay.
You know we're, we'd spreadaround the camp.
How'd the battle go?
Okay, but that's not true, notthe case.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
That's pretty neat, though I do like that, yeah,
yeah.
So, yeah, that's okay, thoughthat's the origin of okay.
It's people just having fun theway that we do today but we did
it in print, yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Wordplay.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
All correct.
So when, if you, if anyone everasks what does okay stand for,
say all correct and they'll lookat you like you're crazy,
because they'll go wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
That should be AC.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
What?
And then now you know.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Or you can say you're a big fan of Van Buren.
If nothing else, you now knowthat Martin Van Buren is okay.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
The Van B boys.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yes, old kinderhook.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
He had some bushy sideburns, that's what.
I would strip him over mytongue on.
Yeah, he had those burn sideflaring out.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, back in those times, Ooh, the facial hair was
great.
Yeah, do you have time foranother one.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
All right, I looked up the phrase.
Take it with a grain of salt.
Ooh, I know this one you doOkay, because I never looked
this up, I did not know.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, okay, so you say what it is meant to mean now
.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
To take it with a grain of salt means to believe
partially.
You maybe kind of believe whatthat person is telling you.
If they're telling you a story,you're taking it with a grain
of salt.
You think there's maybesomething more going on.
You take it with skepticism yes, skepticism.
Don't put all your faith in it.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, yeah, now what I have heard and again I can't
cite the origin, so correct meif I'm wrong.
Sure, so correct me if I'mwrong.
Sure, but that back in theearly, I think, pre-silk Road
era, salt was very, veryvaluable just for, obviously,
for seasoning food, and so muchthat individual grains would be
(30:26):
measured out.
That if, oh shit, you know what, I'm confusing this, well why
with the origin of thesuperstition of throwing salt
over your shoulder after youspill some, which is not well,
the same thing I realizedhalfway through the story of
like wait a minute, where?
Speaker 1 (30:39):
am I going with this?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
that's a different.
That's a different uh well, canyou continue, though, because I
want to know so, yeah, so thesuperstition that if you spill
salt and that'll be bad luck,and the way to get rid of it is
you take a pinch and throw itover your shoulder Again.
Salt back in the Silk Road dayswas very, very expensive, very
(31:02):
hard to get.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
You know, they measured it out.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
They measured it out by the grain, these these
counters, you know, bycandlelight currency.
Yeah, they measured it out bythe grain, these these counters,
you know, by candlelight, andif you were to spill it, it's
like spilling money yeah theywould say oh the, the devil or a
demon you know, pushed you frombehind your shoulder and that's
what caused you to spill thesalt, spill the profits.
So to get back at him, you takea little small pinch and you
throw it over your shoulder intohis eyes to get him to not push
(31:28):
you again.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Oh, interesting, I did not know that at all.
Maybe I'll have to look that upand double check you for the
next one.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Yeah, don't check my math.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, see you at the next borrowed words.
However, this is still way backwhen we're in 77 AD is where I
start with this.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Okay.
So Roman Empire era yes, Ifthat's even the part of the
world we're in.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah, the idea of this comes from food being more
easily eaten, swallowed, iftaken with a small amount of
salt.
So back then, when meatcouldn't really be preserved
very well, you'd coat it in salt.
Bad things are easier toswallow, essentially, but this I
thought was very interesting In77 AD in Anatolia, which is
(32:17):
modern day.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Turkey, turkey, asia Minor.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yes, there was a writing found and it had Like a
recipe for an antidote.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
And in it it said take two dried walnuts, two figs
and 20 leaves of rue.
Pound them all together withthe addition of a grain of salt.
If a person takes this mixturewhile they're fasting, he will
be proof against all poisons forthat day.
(32:52):
Oh yeah, so pre-take it, pre beproof against all poisons for
that day.
Oh yeah, so pre-take it.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Pre-take it.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
For poisons.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
For that day.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, so you take it daily, so like every day, yes,
that seems like a lot of effortto.
Well, this was found in like amonarch's cabinet.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Oh, okay, like this was a ruler, that makes sense.
Yeah, someone higher up, peoplethat are like Jesus.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
The monarchy.
Yeah, yeah, so that's thethought of take it with a grain
of salt, the origin of it.
It's easier to take down poison.
It's easier to swallow bad food.
It's easier to swallow badthings.
The phrase has been in Englishuse since the 17th century and
kind of went out of style for alittle bit, and then it came
(33:31):
back in the 1900s.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Interesting.
Yeah, I don't know what made itgo away For a phrase to leave
and then return.
Yeah, it was retro.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Yeah, it came back in like the early 1900s in America
, I don't know.
And then in 1948, it showed upin England and there was a quote
or a written piece that said amore critical spirit slowly
developed, so that Cicero andhis friends took more than the
(34:00):
proverbial pinch of salt beforeswallowing everything.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And even then they're saying it's proverbial, so
they're saying it's well known.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yes, and it's interesting because in
researching this in England theyuse pinch of salt, we use grain
of salt.
Oh, and I don't really know howtrue that is because, like I
said, I just read it on theInternet.
I have learned or not learned,but I have heard people in
(34:28):
England say that they don't sayhappy Christmas, they say Merry
Christmas, but in America wethink they say happy Christmas.
Oh, they do say Merry Christmasin England, say that they don't
say happy Christmas, they sayMerry Christmas, but in America
we think they say happyChristmas.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Oh, they do say Merry Christmas, they do say Merry
Christmas.
And.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I don't know for a fact, though.
I've only heard people thatI've known like that I've spoken
to one on one.
We've never been to England atChristmas time, but people that
are from England that I know orhave heard have said no, we
don't say that, but I know, likea couple of people, so I don't
have a big scale, yeah, However,I'm like is this one of those
(35:00):
things?
Where are we wrong?
Does America just have thisthought out there?
And we're like, yep pinch ofsalt.
Happy Christmas.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Language is interesting.
We use more salt in America, wedo so.
Wouldn't a pinch be bigger thana grain?
Yeah, yeah, also, we use moresalt in America, we do.
Wouldn't a pinch be bigger thana?
Speaker 1 (35:14):
grain.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the thought is, the maintheory from take it with a grain
of salt is that things areeasier to take down and swallow
with salt, it can help you frompoison, and then that, of course
, evolves into taking badinformation or bad news with a
grain of salt.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or someone might say somethingnice to you.
(35:35):
You know, there's more comingon, you know all that fun stuff,
be skeptical.
Be skeptical.
Our last one I wanted to do isabout food.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Oh good.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I heard you talking about it the other day with your
friend or your co-worker.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Food Eggs Benedict oh okay, talking about it the
other day with your friend oryour co-worker.
Food eggs benedict?
Oh okay, I don't think it hasanything to do with benedict
arnold?
It does not.
That's.
That's where it ends for meyeah, this isn't a phrase, it's
um, yeah, why is it called a?
Speaker 1 (36:05):
dish that is served for brunch right?
So eggs benedict is a brunchdish, if don't know.
That is made up of poached eggs, Canadian bacon or ham placed
on top of an English muffin anddrizzled with hollandaise sauce.
I don't like Eggs Benedict.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
It's decadent.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
That's why it's too much.
The hollandaise sauce is toomuch.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
The English muffin is a lot you replace that Canadian
ham, Canadian bacon, whateverthe fuck it is, and put some
lobster instead.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah, there are different ways to make it this
is just the traditional way.
It is considered an Americanclassic.
I didn't know that itoriginated in America.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
I assumed it came from Europe.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Me too, just because it has English muffins I think
that's the only reason andusually Canadian bacon, so it
doesn't have much American to it, but I guess it is the only
theories they have areAmerican-based too.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
There's not one chef named Benedict that coined it or
trademarked it or anything.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
There's not like one chef named Benedict that coined
it.
Nope.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Or trademarked it, or anything.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
There's a couple theories.
None of them have been 100%confirmed either, so there is
one theory that I like more thanthe other, though.
One theory is that it came fromNew Yorker named Lemuel
Benedict L-E-e-m-u-e-l lemuellemuel, I like that name.
(37:38):
It is said that he would orderbutter toast or english muffins,
bacon poached eggs withhollandaise sauce at the waldorf
hotel in the 1890s it was hislike hangover cure.
He ordered it so much that thechef started calling it the
Benedict, or eggs Benedict.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Isn't the Waldorf hotel where, they say, the
Caesar salad was invented too?
There's, like some other famousdish, that like I mean lore
says that factual is, butthere's like some other, like
famous Cobb salad or Caesarsalad.
They're like get the Waldorf,oh, it was the Waldorf.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Isn't there a salad called the Waldorf?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Oh, there is a Waldorf salad there you go.
Buried the lead there.
Yeah, I don't eat a lot ofsalads.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yeah, I don't really.
I'd make my own salad.
I don't like eating salad atrestaurants unless they're like
really good.
So Lemuel was a Wall Streetstockbroker and it's said that
he walked into Waldorf Hotel in1894, and he asked for this
unique breakfast.
He got it so often.
(38:42):
The chef was calling it EggsBenedict.
Shouldn't have been Benedict'sEggs.
Eh well, it's cleaner.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Cleaner it's cleaner.
Got some pancake, sarah comingwhat.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Sarah's.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Sarah's pancakes.
Why did you switch the noun inthere?
I guess they're both nouns, butnever mind, I'm rambling.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
So the second theory is that there was a wealthy
socialite named Mrs LeGrandBenedict.
That sounds fictional, legrandBenedict.
Yeah, I know.
And then I also thought, likedoes she not even have a first
name.
Do you not care?
Probably back then no, but shewas a wealthy socialite and a
(39:23):
regular at Delmonico'srestaurant in New York City and
she was the one that popularizedit.
That's it with her story.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
That's why.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I'm like I like the other one better, just because
there's more to it.
Yeah, that's it.
But then there's also DelmonicoRestaurant who's saying that
they made up the Eggs Benedict.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
But not for specifically Le Grand Benedict.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I think so they made up the dish for the wealthy
guest for her.
Okay, del up the dish for thewealthy guest for her.
Okay, delmonico says that theymade up this dish for the
wealthy guest, for this wealthysocialite.
One theory is that she made upthe dish.
The other one is Delmonicosaying we made it up.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Okay, whose idea was it yeah?
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Yes.
So she came into the restaurantsaying I'm tired of these same
old brunch dishes, the same oldstuff.
I want something new.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
And they created it.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
She liked it so much, she kept getting it.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
And she claims she kind of dictated exactly what
she wanted, yeah, and just madeit yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
And then there's the Waldorf with Lemuel Benedict
who's saying I want this, I wantthat, I want this.
And they're saying, yep, I'llgive this to you.
And I did find a name for thechef at the Waldorf, but then in
another source it was anentirely different name for the
chef like not even close.
So again, I don't know.
(40:45):
This all seems not real, like Ireally don't know what the
truth is here.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Interesting.
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
There's another theory that says that the name
came from the sauce becausethere used to be, or there is, a
Benedictine sauce which issimilar to Hollandaise sauce.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Mmm, mm-hmm, that actually might make the most
sense.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Well, here's my favorite.
It's not the one I think ismost likely okay, but it's my
favorite.
There's also the benedictineorder of monks the benedictine
order is a catholic monasticorder founded in the sixth
century, and they were known fortheir agricultural practices,
(41:30):
which of course included raisingchickens and producing eggs.
So obviously it was them.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
But I would think they would not be so indulgent
with poached in hollandaise,like they're supposed to be
aesthetic.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, so yeah, those are all of the theories of Eggs
Benedict.
I'm going to say that it wassomeone who had hangovers.
A rich stockbroker at theWaldorf had hangovers, because I
only know people that eat thosewhen they're hungover.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Oh, I eat Anytime we go to breakfast.
If there's something on themenu, I get it.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Really, I never noticed, maybe I don't pay
attention.
Yeah, sorry, I did notice inBaltimore, you got it.
Oh yeah, because it had likeseafood on it oh yeah, you went
all out.
Yeah, crab in there yeah, sothat is it for our second
installment of borrowed words Ilike this one better yeah, you
(42:25):
didn't have to do any prep work.
Yeah, but yeah, I'll have morein.
Whenever, basically whenever mybrain needs a break, I'm gonna
throw this in there just to keepourselves afloat and moving.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
It was nice to do.
It'll be a floating wild cardin the lineup.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
It'll just be thrown in there whenever I need a break
.
I hope everyone enjoyed it.
Also remember to follow us onInstagram.
Blue Sky Patreon.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Also, I just thought of this, but we should field
suggestions for words andphrases.
Yeah, throw a comment out, Giveus some weird phrase or
Something you might want to knowor I shouldn't say a weird
phrase, a common phrase, but youdon't know what its origin is.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, start reaching out.
We do have an emailborrowedbonespodcast at protonme
.
I know that's a lot.
If you just scroll downwherever you're streaming on
spotify or apple, you can clickthe link.
But we also do have a youtubeaccount.
So follow us on youtube andcomment there.
I'll try and look at all of theplaces.
I'll try to look at everything.
(43:26):
So, yes, give us ideas, give usum suggestions on what you want
us to look up and find theorigin of.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, and also, if you do become a Patreon member,
we will shout you out.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Thank you, shouldn't be a problem, shouldn't be an
issue.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Yeah, okay, thank you .
Thanks, bye.
Hello everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Hey, out there.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm Sarah.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And this is Cole.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
And you're listening to Borrowed Words.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Oh, we're doing a different one today.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Yep that's our second one a series on the etymology
of words and phrases.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh yeah, interesting.
I have not prepared any thistime.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Nope, nope, I did all the preparation.
I'll have you guess what theyare before I talk about it and
we'll see how right or wrong youare.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Because you like to do a lot of this and I like to
speculate.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I don't know.
I wonder how this would haverealistically come up, how could
this were a phrase?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
And then, yeah, then we'll look up to see if we're
right or wrong this word orphrase and then, yeah, then
we'll look up to see if we'reright or wrong yeah, we do this
a lot, so I figured let's do itofficially instead of when we're
just shooting the shit yeah, atthe bar a few reminders up top
before we get into this.
We do have an instagram account.
I've said it for the last fewepisodes now.
I know early on I was veryagainst it.
(01:02):
I still have my own internalconflict with it, but I have it,
I'm doing it.
I'm in Borrowed Bones podcaston Instagram.
Check it out.
We still do have a blue sky andI did also make a Patreon.
It's a totally new platform andI don't really know what I'm
doing, but we do have onesubscriber, yay.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Allison.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
We love you.
Sound effects for Allison we'rein the big leagues.
Yay, I had to.
I feel like Allison would likethat.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
You got a laser in there somewhere.
Laser beam.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I don't know.
I'm getting annoying.
Now oh record scratch Wellthank you you, allison.
Yeah, I'm done with all thesounds now.
We appreciate you and, like Isaid, I don't really know what
I'm doing on patreon.
I do plan to post a few thingson there that won't be on my
instagram account.
Um, no episodes or anything onpatreon that aren't available to
(02:05):
everyone, though like all ofthe episodes will always be
available to everyone.
This is just extra shits andgiggles.
If you want to see us do videos, bonus features type stuff
right, I'm not really intomaking a lot of videos.
I'll do little snippets.
You'll see on Instagram.
But if you want more video andmore content like that, I will
do it on Patreon.
(02:26):
You have to pay for it, thoughit's hard for me to do.
It takes me a long time to dothat and if you want that, then
you have to pay me because,again, it takes time and you
gotta survive in this world yougotta survive in this capitalist
America.
Gotta love it, love it so much.
Well, I do love Allison andanyone else who joins, so that
would awesome.
I do plan to eventually getsome merch out there, starting
(02:49):
small with, you know hats andpins, that kind of hats, pins,
badges, stickers.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, stickers Mm.
Hmm, that's cheap.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, so we'll slowly but surely get there, and it's
it's something that we need towork on together.
The more you guys help, supportus, the more we can give back
to you.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
This whole thing has a learning curve, this whole
grand experiment that we'redoing.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yes, it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Mad scientists.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
All right, where are we?
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Our first phrase that we're going to talk about Hit
me Is.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
What if the phrase was hit me?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
that would be like holy shit it's not sorry, it's
raining cats and dogs.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
You know what it means yeah, it's heavy rain,
it's, it's, it's a downpour,it's a typhoon.
It's just won't let up the rainyeah, downpour, big rainstorm,
I don't.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
I had no idea what the origins were.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I know I looked this up once at one point in my life.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
You did, okay, I never did.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And that's even worse now because I'm having that
lethalogica of the tip of yourtongue.
But for a whole concept, giveme a second here.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Any guesses?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
All right, well, here's my.
This is just a shot in the darktheory okay thinking maybe in
the olden days of long, long ago, during heavy rainstorms, dogs
and cats, which would bepredominantly outside animals,
would start like clamoring toget in, maybe begging for
shelter to be let in.
(04:23):
So heavy rain signals cats anddogs are going to be at the door
, at the windows.
But that's just my, just aneducate, not even an educate,
just a guess, just a guess, umit, you're not off entirely okay
I found a few theories oh sothere's like different trains of
thought.
I like those two, and there'slike yes, we're not so there's
(04:44):
like different trains of thought.
I like those too.
And there's like we're notexactly sure there's two or
three trains of thought here.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yes, there is no real .
We don't know exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
No, definitive Nope.
This guy coined the term onthis date.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
There's even some which this isn't really fun, so
I didn't write this in.
But there's even some theoriesthat it's just down to old
English, that there was oldEnglish, that something to the
effect of like a catapult wasthe same word as waterfall.
It's raining like a waterfall.
It's raining like a catapult orhowever they pronounced it.
(05:14):
So there's that happening there.
But the two main theories areone in the 16th century england
houses had thatched roofs okaywhere animals would be able to
crawl into and stay warm okayand when it rained they would
(05:34):
all jump down or get washed downyeah, fall down, whatever okay
that one has been proven to notbe true, or most likely not be
true, just because they're noton the roofs.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
They're just not and like and dogs, maybe cats, but
no dogs.
Yeah, what dog hides?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
yeah, yeah what most likely it is is dead animals
like cats and dogs, streetanimals after a bad rainstorm,
because there was poor drainage,so they would get swept away
and flooded.
So it looked like it had rainedcats and dogs oh, that's like
it's been raining cats and dogs,and then it turns into more of
(06:13):
a it's raining cats and dogs.
You see the river of dead animalcarcasses see they flow down
from the sky yeah it's deadanimal carcasses, redundant yeah
, yeah, you think people died ofbeing swept away in, like
that'd be so strange there waspeople that died being swept
away by that molasses riverexplosion at least that was
(06:35):
something different and strangeand weird.
It's not like oh, there's arainstorm today, get inside, you
might Like that's if it rainshard enough, you're going to
well, yeah, floods, but this issuch a common phrase.
I'm assuming it's just a heavyrainstorm, like when we get
maybe a couple inches of rain,but because the streets are so
(07:00):
poorly drained, everything justfills up, fills up and washes
down like a river.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
It just creates a river, every time Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Oh man, that's things you don't think about.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
It's a dirty time to be alive.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
This is a scary time, it's filthy.
Ugh, all right, so the next one.
We both know this one, so I didthis one thinking it would be
fun.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Pressure one.
So I did this one, thinking itwould be fun.
Oh god, pressure's on, what ifI forgot this one?
Don't worry, it's okay, allright, blood is thicker than
water, oh okay, yes, so blood isthicker than water.
When people use that phrasetoday typically means that the
family bond is stronger than thefriend bond yeah, like blood
meaning family, yes, strongerthan those.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
You have a meal with, you have water with, whatever.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So your blood is thicker than water.
All right, do you have an ideaof where this came from?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I believe I looked into this before it was around
kind of the opposite, meaningthat the blood you shed in
battle with your fellow soldiersis thicker than the water in
the womb, the amniotic fluidthat you would share with a
literal sibling, a twin, or justin general.
(08:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Am I correct in that assessment.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
No, oh shit, right, that's that assessment no.
Oh shit Right.
That's also what I thought itwas too.
I thought that as well, until Iresearched it even further.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Is it the more boring standard one?
We all think it is.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
I mean I'll tell you.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
It's not a yes or no, okay, so you got to strap in
for this one.
Okay, all right.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Oh, you got to strap in for this one, okay, all right
.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It is believed that the full phrase is the blood of
the covenant is thicker than thewater of the womb.
Exactly what you thought.
Okay, However, was that theoriginal phrase?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
It's not.
That's what I discovered.
Okay, so the first phrases arefrom or the first time it's seen
really is in Germanic andScottish Proverbs.
Okay, so the first phrases arefrom or the first time it's seen
really is in Germanic andScottish proverbs.
Okay, and the earliest referenceto the phrase blood is thicker
than water is in a German poemin 1180.
(09:18):
It's been around for a while.
Okay, yeah, so there'sdifferent, like iterations of it
.
Okay yeah, it's been adaptedover the centuries More
centuries than I would havethought, though I thought it was
yeah, so there's different likeiterations of it.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Okay.
Yeah, it's been adapted overthe centuries, more centuries
than I would have thought,though I thought it was, yeah,
world War I, not 1100s.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, more recent, the quote in 1180 in German says
I moreover hear it said familyblood isn't demolished by water.
So family blood is notdemolished by water.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And the thinking here is that your family ties don't
lessen when you separate by anocean.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, when you travel , when you go far away, rivers,
lakes, oceans doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
So it's still saying that the family blood bond is
strong.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
So did we get confused there?
Maybe, I don't know.
Some say that Henry ClayTrumbull wrote that phrase in
his writing the Blood of theCovenant in 1885.
He does have a chapter that istitled Blood is Thicker Than
Water.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
But he never says the entire phrase, as we thought it
was with Water of the Womb oranything like that.
It's just the chapter titlethat's it okay now the thought
is that over the years, peoplemixed up another phrase, another
arabic phrase that was createdindependently they don't have
anything to do with each otherconvergent evolution yes, and
(10:41):
this one is blood is thickerthan milk.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Meaning milk of the mother.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So blood of your brother, the blood pact or
brother in arms like we weresaying that's how they're
thinking of it.
Yeah, means more than themother's milk.
Yeah, yeah.
So the thought is that,basically, we heard this phrase
merged it with blood is thickerthan water, created this random
(11:12):
blood of the covenants, thickerthan water of the womb, or
whatever I think, cancel culture.
I think, as we got more andmore into our society in america
, whenever the phrase was turnedinto the water of the womb, I
think we were just sick of beingwith.
Now the next one.
I always forget what the originof this is and I feel like I've
(11:36):
asked you before so you mightknow, but there is quite a bit
to this story that I didn't know.
Okay, all right, so to86-something.
Something has been 86-ed.
It's 86-ed.
Oh shit.
Thing has been 86.
Um, it's 86, oh shit.
So the meaning of 86 is usuallyin an industry term.
(11:57):
If you're bartending restaurantanything like that, you've 86
an item.
That means you're out of it.
We don't have it anymore.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
It's gone 86 pickles 86 a person.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
You kick them out you kick them out or you stop
serving them.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Okay, I don't remember.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I know I always forget this one too, because
it's weird.
It's weird, so let me tell youthe story of 86.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
This is a story.
Is this the grave depths ordimensions?
Okay, yes, listen up.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Kind of Not really, but it's a theory.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
It's one of them.
So this one took me longer thanI expected, because this was
quite a ride.
Like I said, we typically hearit in restaurants and bars today
86, this 86, that I mean.
There's even boards that youhave in the kitchen in the back
that have 86 on them.
There's a list of hopefully nota long one, but a list of
what's missing or what you don'thave or what you ran out of
(12:51):
Gotcha.
The term dates back to the1930s, when soda jerks became
more popular and they were theones that started saying 86
whenever something ran out.
But, why 86?
Right.
So I'm like, okay, well, it wasalready popular with soda jerks
(13:11):
and they made it popular in theculture.
But where did they get it from?
Why are they using that number?
For it's gone?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
is it a measurement of?
The capacity of a soda therewas.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I did read a quick theory, which this isn't true,
that during the depression era,um, during the depression, sorry
during the depression, soupsorry.
During the depression, soupkitchens could only give out 85
bowls of soup and 86.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
But that's not true.
That's not true at all.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
That's just people talking.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
It's a retroactive explanation.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
However, bartenders during Prohibition who worked at
a certain New York speakeasycalled Chumley's which was
located on 86 Bedford Street,they had police on their payroll
during the prohibition.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Unheard of.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
They would call ahead .
The police would call thebartenders ahead of time,
knowing there was a raid comingyeah, and they would tell the
bartender to 86 the customersand that they should exit out of
the 86 bedford street sidewhile the police came in on the
other side from the other streetokay so 86 the customers, let
(14:27):
them go out the 86th street okayyes, there's, that's a saw the
most solid theory behind.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
It really does come down to a single address of one
speakeasy possibly.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
That's the leading theory, okay.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Okay, I like that.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Now there was also a theory which I don't know if
this is just coincidence,because I don't.
I don't think this is it, butit's interesting.
Article 86 of the us uniformcode of military justice
concerns absence without leaveor awal, which is article 86 of
us uniform code, whatever, and Ilooked it up just to confirm is
(15:09):
that even true?
Yes, oh, that is true, yes,okay it is 86, and that does
pertain to AWOL.
I didn't read all of it, I justsaw AWOL 86, and I said okay.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I don't like that theory.
That's so obscure.
I don't think it's real but itis quite the coincidence.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Now there's another theory which I do like just
because I'm a bartender, but I'mstill holding the chumley
speakeasy.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Okay, I'm, that's got to be.
Why that?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
was in new york.
In new york, yeah, now, upuntil the 1980s, whiskey only
came in 100 proof or 86 proof.
When a bartender would noticethat a patron was getting too
drunk, they would scale back andthey would put away the 100
proof whiskey I'm having troublesaying proof and then they
(16:03):
would scale back and take awaythe 100 proof whiskey and they
would give the patron the 86proof whiskey and then saying
that that customer was 86.
I don't think that's anything.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That was the 1980s.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I would.
I mean, I don't know for a fact, but I assumed the term to 86
existed well before the 1980s.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Oh, sorry, Up until the 1980s whiskey only had 100
or 86 proof?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah, so whenever, yeahback in the day I misinterpreted
that.
Yeah, misheard that this is astupid theory.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
I might even cut this one out.
Yeah, leave it in.
(17:04):
Updated their term of 86 in mayof 2025, noting that 86 has
been referenced as a term for tokill, but they stated that it's
truly not the case, that thisis such a recent way to use it
and it is so sparingly used andin only one niche area, that it
is not considered a meaning ofthe term.
So 86, according tomerriam-webster, in no shape,
(17:24):
way or form means to kill.
That's it, the end periodnicely said thank you,
merriam-webster.
Moving on All right, so 86,strong theory that it does come
from prohibition era, from aspeakeasy that was on 86 Bedford
(17:46):
Street in New York and policewould call and say 86 the
customers.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, Said I'm not on the 86th to the 86th door and
say 86, the customers, yeah, setthem out on the 86th to the
86th door.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yep, and I like that.
That's hard to say.
Yeah, I know.
All right, the next one yes andthis was also one that I would
always forget, and I think we'vespoken about this one as well,
but don't I for?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
spotlights on me.
This one, I don't know, I'mcoming up short I know it's fine
dollar short.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, just like your mama said.
Okay, all righty, do you wantme to leave it in?
Yeah, okay, our next one isokay oh, I believe I do know
this one hold on, give us themeat like okay, everyone know,
(18:34):
do know, this one Hold on.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Give us the meat Like .
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Okay, Everyone knows.
I thought this one wasinteresting because people in
other countries use this too,Even if they don't speak English
.
Everyone knows that okay iskind of just Isolated tribes
somehow will say okay.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, they've had I shouldn't say totally isolated.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
No, they can't be Once they've had limited contact
.
Okay, comes up.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
It's the easiest thing to say, but it's the best
non-committal affirmative.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Non-endorsing of something but still being.
Yeah, but it's more terse than.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, it's another sure kind of or okay yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I don't like when people spell it out Okay, a-y,
just the letters, no periods,okay.
And why is that, do you know?
Because, okay, yeah, we arerecording, had a double check.
Yeah, if I have this correct,in boston I believe it was in
the mid-19th century, amongstthe collegiate there was this
(19:32):
trend of college studentsintentionally using improper
spelling for common phrases andwords and they would say the
phrase was all correct, as inyou know all good, and they
spelled it O-L-L-K-O-R-R-E-C-Tand that got shortened from all
(19:54):
correct to okay.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yes, so you are almost all correct.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
You're very close.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Did I get the city wrong?
Speaker 1 (20:03):
No, no, no, no.
You have like the abbreviatedversion.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
That's it, so I'm going to give the meat and
taters of it all.
It was in Boston, okay, andduring this time there was a
general trend, not just theseBoston collegiates, though.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
I mean maybe amongst the upper echelon, the fops, the
dandies of the the people thatknow how to read and write.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, so that crowd the people that are reading
newspapers and being allilliterate.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Those are being all literate and shit.
Those who get a joke out ofwords being misspelled because
they know the proper way.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
But when I was doing my research, it was spoken about
or written about in a way as ifit was a general fad to
abbreviate words and to misspellthem, kind of the same way that
we would brb be right back.
Yeah, lol, laugh out loud.
Whatever, that, we don't needto abbreviate anything, we're
(21:00):
just choosing to.
I know how to spell, I know howto read I know how to write, I
just am choosing to be that wayOld newspapers, that's been a
trend.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Since we've been documenting.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
So abbreviating things has been a trend and
newspapers have exchangedabbreviations, I guess, or those
fads.
Also, misspelling words was atrend, the same way that it's
been a trend for us.
Anything with an S turns into aZ, or cool is K-E-W-L.
Cool.
It was more of a joke and itcame about as a joke, and there
(21:34):
were two newspapers going backand forth, because back during
this time newspapers would jabat each other in like a playful
way, but there was no internet,there was no way to communicate
other than through newspaper,and so there was a Boston
newspaper that was talking toProvidence, rhode Island.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Oh, I was figuring like two rival newspapers in the
same major metro area.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
No, going to each other, not different areas.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
That's even funnier to me.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
The Boston newspaper editor was returning a jab, so I
don't know what he's saying, sohe's returned.
He's what's return.
Responding Responding yes, Iwas like what else am I trying
to say?
He's responding to somethingthat this Providence Rhode
Island journal has already saidto him.
All right, so bear with me.
It's really awkward to readbecause it's like 1880s.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah.
The Boston newspaper editor issaying that there are some
Boston boys who might bestopping into town in Providence
, kind of like heads up Warningya, some Bostonians are coming
to raise havoc, so wreak havocin your town.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
He says quote he of the Providence Journal and his
train band, so his people wouldhave the contributions box etc.
Ok, and then he clarifies allcorrect.
And then he says and cause thecorks to fly.
So it's really broken up.
(23:04):
Very difficult to hear, butthat was the.
The fad of the time ofnewspapers was to break things
up.
Okay, all correct.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You know dash dash here here, right.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
So basically he's saying there's some Boston boys
coming your way, providence guys, be ready to host them, be
ready to give them drinks.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Be ready to do it up.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Everything's going nuts, so okay, all correct.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
All correct.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
There were also some phrases.
I'd like to see the other fadsthat came into play as well.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Right.
So there were also otherphrases like no go N-O-G-O.
They would spell it K-N-O-W, sothey would have a K-G for no go
Okay.
Or they would have a K-G for nogo Okay.
Or they would do no useN-O-U-S-E, misspelling it as no
(23:57):
with K and then use with a Y, sothen K-Y for no use.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Is that how we got K-Y jelly?
No use O-K-Y jelly.
Yeah, why jelly?
Speaker 1 (24:08):
no use, okay.
Why jelly?
Yeah, but I wanted to know whydid okay stick around and none
of the other fads did?
Because even today, we're nolonger using brb or gtg or yeah
we're not saying we might typethem or we don't even type gtg,
or when was the last time youtyped brb?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I'm unfair.
I never typed abbreviations,I'm always either way.
When was the last time?
Speaker 1 (24:27):
someone told you that oh, exactly it started to drop
off a bit, because fads change,styles change.
Here's how it got in.
This is why it didn't die okay,yeah, no pun intended there was
a presidential election ineight oh shit in 1840, so
(24:48):
earlier I said 1880s-ish forthose newspapers back and forth.
It was actually 1820s, 1830s.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
I went the opposite way I thought it was a little
earlier.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
No, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
So it was earlier that the newspapers and the okay
boys were happening.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
The all-correct boys, the.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Bostonian boys, the all-correct Bostonian boys.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Keep those champagne cocks, poppin' boys.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Okay, so there was a presidential election in 1840.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Ooh, can I guess who ends up being the president out
of this 1840 election?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
You're pretty good at the president, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Let me just place the 1840.
I'm gonna go Seinfeldfeldreference.
I don't know was it numbereight martin van buren.
Oh, the van b boys.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Oh, is that?
Maybe that's why I was thinkingof the okay boys yeah, because
is that, is it the gesture?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
is it it, is it?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
No.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Okay, keep going.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Oh, kind of, because they do the eight.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, that's their sign in the Seinfeld the Van
Buren boy street gang.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Right, they flash eight fingers.
And they do the one hand withtheir thumb and their pointer
finger, touching, but that's notlike a white supremacy sign now
in the last few years.
But it used to be In the 90ssit was okay.
It was just A-okay.
In the 90s it meant A-okay.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, A-okay would be .
I'm all all correct.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah, I guess so yeah .
But wow levels for thatSeinfeld episode.
Whoa.
But yes, the presidentialelection in 1840 and Martin Van
Buren was given the nickname ofOld Kinderhook Kinderhook.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Kinderhook.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Kinderhook because his hometown of Kinderhook, New
York.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Okay and the Van Buren supporters would join OK
Clubs nationwide and they wereself-proclaimed OK.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
So they were Van Buren fanboys?
Yes, so Van Buren did have likehis weird cult of personality
he had stands, yeah that's weird, yeah you wouldn't think, and
he's like one of thequote-unquote forgotten
presidents now yeah, like youonly really know about him.
I guarantee most people are agebracket.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
If they know him at all, it's through the seinfeld
reference yeah, yeah, anyway,this all okay and van buren and
okay clubs and all of thisbecame so popular and so well
known that people startedbelieving that okay came from
van buren's campaign.
So some people might think itcomes from that, but it's not
(27:26):
the case.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
They took it from okay, yeah, yeah from the
newspapers and the yeah you knowall correct and they're maybe
making a little pun on italready by giving him the
nickname yes, he's all correct,playing on, I think they were,
because they probably still knewwhat it originally meant, but
yeah it was already.
They just made it even morepopular and thrust it into our
(27:49):
world forever yeah, one of thetheories I had heard was that it
originated in the civil war,because when commanders would
relate, after a battle or askirmish, their their casualties
, if none of their soldiers werekilled, they would just write
zero K and send that.
(28:09):
So the shorthand of zero killedwould obviously be a good thing
.
So what's the situation?
Okay Zero killed.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Zero killed.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And then that's oh yeah, everything, it's okay,
it's okay, it's okay.
You know we're, we'd spreadaround the camp.
How'd the battle go?
Okay, but that's not true, notthe case.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
That's pretty neat, though I do like that, yeah,
yeah.
So, yeah, that's okay, thoughthat's the origin of okay.
It's people just having fun theway that we do today but we did
it in print, yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Wordplay.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
All correct.
So when, if you, if anyone everasks what does okay stand for,
say all correct and they'll lookat you like you're crazy,
because they'll go wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
That should be AC.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
What?
And then now you know.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Or you can say you're a big fan of Van Buren.
If nothing else, you now knowthat Martin Van Buren is okay.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
The Van B boys.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yes, old kinderhook.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
He had some bushy sideburns, that's what.
I would strip him over mytongue on.
Yeah, he had those burn sideflaring out.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, back in those times, Ooh, the facial hair was
great.
Yeah, do you have time foranother one.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
All right, I looked up the phrase.
Take it with a grain of salt.
Ooh, I know this one you doOkay, because I never looked
this up, I did not know.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah, okay, so you say what it is meant to mean now
.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
To take it with a grain of salt means to believe
partially.
You maybe kind of believe whatthat person is telling you.
If they're telling you a story,you're taking it with a grain
of salt.
You think there's maybesomething more going on.
You take it with skepticism yes, skepticism.
Don't put all your faith in it.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, yeah, now what I have heard and again I can't
cite the origin, so correct meif I'm wrong.
Sure, so correct me if I'mwrong.
Sure, but that back in theearly, I think, pre-silk Road
era, salt was very, veryvaluable just for, obviously,
for seasoning food, and so muchthat individual grains would be
(30:26):
measured out.
That if, oh shit, you know what, I'm confusing this, well why
with the origin of thesuperstition of throwing salt
over your shoulder after youspill some, which is not well,
the same thing I realizedhalfway through the story of
like wait a minute, where?
Speaker 1 (30:39):
am I going with this?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
that's a different.
That's a different uh well, canyou continue, though, because I
want to know so, yeah, so thesuperstition that if you spill
salt and that'll be bad luck,and the way to get rid of it is
you take a pinch and throw itover your shoulder Again.
Salt back in the Silk Road dayswas very, very expensive, very
(31:02):
hard to get.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
You know, they measured it out.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
They measured it out by the grain, these these
counters, you know, bycandlelight currency.
Yeah, they measured it out bythe grain, these these counters,
you know, by candlelight, andif you were to spill it, it's
like spilling money yeah theywould say oh the, the devil or a
demon you know, pushed you frombehind your shoulder and that's
what caused you to spill thesalt, spill the profits.
So to get back at him, you takea little small pinch and you
throw it over your shoulder intohis eyes to get him to not push
(31:28):
you again.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Oh, interesting, I did not know that at all.
Maybe I'll have to look that upand double check you for the
next one.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Yeah, don't check my math.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, see you at the next borrowed words.
However, this is still way backwhen we're in 77 AD is where I
start with this.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Okay.
So Roman Empire era yes, Ifthat's even the part of the
world we're in.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah, the idea of this comes from food being more
easily eaten, swallowed, iftaken with a small amount of
salt.
So back then, when meatcouldn't really be preserved
very well, you'd coat it in salt.
Bad things are easier toswallow, essentially, but this I
thought was very interesting In77 AD in Anatolia, which is
(32:17):
modern day.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Turkey, turkey, asia Minor.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yes, there was a writing found and it had Like a
recipe for an antidote.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
And in it it said take two dried walnuts, two figs
and 20 leaves of rue.
Pound them all together withthe addition of a grain of salt.
If a person takes this mixturewhile they're fasting, he will
be proof against all poisons forthat day.
(32:52):
Oh yeah, so pre-take it, pre beproof against all poisons for
that day.
Oh yeah, so pre-take it.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Pre-take it.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
For poisons.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
For that day.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, so you take it daily, so like every day, yes,
that seems like a lot of effortto.
Well, this was found in like amonarch's cabinet.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Oh, okay, like this was a ruler, that makes sense.
Yeah, someone higher up, peoplethat are like Jesus.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
The monarchy.
Yeah, yeah, so that's thethought of take it with a grain
of salt, the origin of it.
It's easier to take down poison.
It's easier to swallow bad food.
It's easier to swallow badthings.
The phrase has been in Englishuse since the 17th century and
kind of went out of style for alittle bit, and then it came
(33:31):
back in the 1900s.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Interesting.
Yeah, I don't know what made itgo away For a phrase to leave
and then return.
Yeah, it was retro.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Yeah, it came back in like the early 1900s in America
, I don't know.
And then in 1948, it showed upin England and there was a quote
or a written piece that said amore critical spirit slowly
developed, so that Cicero andhis friends took more than the
(34:00):
proverbial pinch of salt beforeswallowing everything.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And even then they're saying it's proverbial, so
they're saying it's well known.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yes, and it's interesting because in
researching this in England theyuse pinch of salt, we use grain
of salt.
Oh, and I don't really know howtrue that is because, like I
said, I just read it on theInternet.
I have learned or not learned,but I have heard people in
(34:28):
England say that they don't sayhappy Christmas, they say Merry
Christmas, but in America wethink they say happy Christmas.
Oh, they do say Merry Christmasin England, say that they don't
say happy Christmas, they sayMerry Christmas, but in America
we think they say happyChristmas.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Oh, they do say Merry Christmas, they do say Merry
Christmas.
And.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I don't know for a fact, though.
I've only heard people thatI've known like that I've spoken
to one on one.
We've never been to England atChristmas time, but people that
are from England that I know orhave heard have said no, we
don't say that, but I know, likea couple of people, so I don't
have a big scale, yeah, However,I'm like is this one of those
(35:00):
things?
Where are we wrong?
Does America just have thisthought out there?
And we're like, yep pinch ofsalt.
Happy Christmas.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Language is interesting.
We use more salt in America, wedo so.
Wouldn't a pinch be bigger thana grain?
Yeah, yeah, also, we use moresalt in America, we do.
Wouldn't a pinch be bigger thana?
Speaker 1 (35:14):
grain.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the thought is, the maintheory from take it with a grain
of salt is that things areeasier to take down and swallow
with salt, it can help you frompoison, and then that, of course
, evolves into taking badinformation or bad news with a
grain of salt.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or someone might say somethingnice to you.
(35:35):
You know, there's more comingon, you know all that fun stuff,
be skeptical.
Be skeptical.
Our last one I wanted to do isabout food.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Oh good.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I heard you talking about it the other day with your
friend or your co-worker.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Food Eggs Benedict oh okay, talking about it the
other day with your friend oryour co-worker.
Food eggs benedict?
Oh okay, I don't think it hasanything to do with benedict
arnold?
It does not.
That's.
That's where it ends for meyeah, this isn't a phrase, it's
um, yeah, why is it called a?
Speaker 1 (36:05):
dish that is served for brunch right?
So eggs benedict is a brunchdish, if don't know.
That is made up of poached eggs, Canadian bacon or ham placed
on top of an English muffin anddrizzled with hollandaise sauce.
I don't like Eggs Benedict.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
It's decadent.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
That's why it's too much.
The hollandaise sauce is toomuch.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
The English muffin is a lot you replace that Canadian
ham, Canadian bacon, whateverthe fuck it is, and put some
lobster instead.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah, there are different ways to make it this
is just the traditional way.
It is considered an Americanclassic.
I didn't know that itoriginated in America.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
I assumed it came from Europe.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Me too, just because it has English muffins I think
that's the only reason andusually Canadian bacon, so it
doesn't have much American to it, but I guess it is the only
theories they have areAmerican-based too.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
There's not one chef named Benedict that coined it or
trademarked it or anything.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
There's not like one chef named Benedict that coined
it.
Nope.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Or trademarked it, or anything.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
There's a couple theories.
None of them have been 100%confirmed either, so there is
one theory that I like more thanthe other, though.
One theory is that it came fromNew Yorker named Lemuel
Benedict L-E-e-m-u-e-l lemuellemuel, I like that name.
(37:38):
It is said that he would orderbutter toast or english muffins,
bacon poached eggs withhollandaise sauce at the waldorf
hotel in the 1890s it was hislike hangover cure.
He ordered it so much that thechef started calling it the
Benedict, or eggs Benedict.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Isn't the Waldorf hotel where, they say, the
Caesar salad was invented too?
There's, like some other famousdish, that like I mean lore
says that factual is, butthere's like some other, like
famous Cobb salad or Caesarsalad.
They're like get the Waldorf,oh, it was the Waldorf.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Isn't there a salad called the Waldorf?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Oh, there is a Waldorf salad there you go.
Buried the lead there.
Yeah, I don't eat a lot ofsalads.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yeah, I don't really.
I'd make my own salad.
I don't like eating salad atrestaurants unless they're like
really good.
So Lemuel was a Wall Streetstockbroker and it's said that
he walked into Waldorf Hotel in1894, and he asked for this
unique breakfast.
He got it so often.
(38:42):
The chef was calling it EggsBenedict.
Shouldn't have been Benedict'sEggs.
Eh well, it's cleaner.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Cleaner it's cleaner.
Got some pancake, sarah comingwhat.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Sarah's.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Sarah's pancakes.
Why did you switch the noun inthere?
I guess they're both nouns, butnever mind, I'm rambling.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
So the second theory is that there was a wealthy
socialite named Mrs LeGrandBenedict.
That sounds fictional, legrandBenedict.
Yeah, I know.
And then I also thought, likedoes she not even have a first
name.
Do you not care?
Probably back then no, but shewas a wealthy socialite and a
(39:23):
regular at Delmonico'srestaurant in New York City and
she was the one that popularizedit.
That's it with her story.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
That's why.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I'm like I like the other one better, just because
there's more to it.
Yeah, that's it.
But then there's also DelmonicoRestaurant who's saying that
they made up the Eggs Benedict.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
But not for specifically Le Grand Benedict.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I think so they made up the dish for the wealthy
guest for her.
Okay, del up the dish for thewealthy guest for her.
Okay, delmonico says that theymade up this dish for the
wealthy guest, for this wealthysocialite.
One theory is that she made upthe dish.
The other one is Delmonicosaying we made it up.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Okay, whose idea was it yeah?
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Yes.
So she came into the restaurantsaying I'm tired of these same
old brunch dishes, the same oldstuff.
I want something new.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
And they created it.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
She liked it so much, she kept getting it.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
And she claims she kind of dictated exactly what
she wanted, yeah, and just madeit yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
And then there's the Waldorf with Lemuel Benedict
who's saying I want this, I wantthat, I want this.
And they're saying, yep, I'llgive this to you.
And I did find a name for thechef at the Waldorf, but then in
another source it was anentirely different name for the
chef like not even close.
So again, I don't know.
(40:45):
This all seems not real, like Ireally don't know what the
truth is here.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Interesting.
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
There's another theory that says that the name
came from the sauce becausethere used to be, or there is, a
Benedictine sauce which issimilar to Hollandaise sauce.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Mmm, mm-hmm, that actually might make the most
sense.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Well, here's my favorite.
It's not the one I think ismost likely okay, but it's my
favorite.
There's also the benedictineorder of monks the benedictine
order is a catholic monasticorder founded in the sixth
century, and they were known fortheir agricultural practices,
(41:30):
which of course included raisingchickens and producing eggs.
So obviously it was them.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
But I would think they would not be so indulgent
with poached in hollandaise,like they're supposed to be
aesthetic.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, so yeah, those are all of the theories of Eggs
Benedict.
I'm going to say that it wassomeone who had hangovers.
A rich stockbroker at theWaldorf had hangovers, because I
only know people that eat thosewhen they're hungover.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Oh, I eat Anytime we go to breakfast.
If there's something on themenu, I get it.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Really, I never noticed, maybe I don't pay
attention.
Yeah, sorry, I did notice inBaltimore, you got it.
Oh yeah, because it had likeseafood on it oh yeah, you went
all out.
Yeah, crab in there yeah, sothat is it for our second
installment of borrowed words Ilike this one better yeah, you
(42:25):
didn't have to do any prep work.
Yeah, but yeah, I'll have morein.
Whenever, basically whenever mybrain needs a break, I'm gonna
throw this in there just to keepourselves afloat and moving.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
It was nice to do.
It'll be a floating wild cardin the lineup.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
It'll just be thrown in there whenever I need a break
.
I hope everyone enjoyed it.
Also remember to follow us onInstagram.
Blue Sky Patreon.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Also, I just thought of this, but we should field
suggestions for words andphrases.
Yeah, throw a comment out, Giveus some weird phrase or
Something you might want to knowor I shouldn't say a weird
phrase, a common phrase, but youdon't know what its origin is.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, start reaching out.
We do have an emailborrowedbonespodcast at protonme
.
I know that's a lot.
If you just scroll downwherever you're streaming on
spotify or apple, you can clickthe link.
But we also do have a youtubeaccount.
So follow us on youtube andcomment there.
I'll try and look at all of theplaces.
I'll try to look at everything.
(43:26):
So, yes, give us ideas, give usum suggestions on what you want
us to look up and find theorigin of.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, and also, if you do become a Patreon member,
we will shout you out.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Thank you, shouldn't be a problem, shouldn't be an
issue.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Yeah, okay, thank you .
Thanks, bye.
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