October 8, 2025 • 39 mins
Ever wonder why we say “graveyard shift” or “trick or treat”? Listen as we unravel the eerie origins of words and phrases we say every spooky season.
Sources:
Wordsmarts.com, Graveyard Shift, BetterWordsOnline.com, MentalFloss.com, Phrases.com, WordOrigins.com, LoveToKnow.com, TheExplain.com, UncoverWords.com, Etymonline.com, MerriamWebster.com, History.com
E-Mail the show at BorrowedBonesPodcast@proton.me
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (00:02):
Hey everyone.
SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
I'm Sarah.
SPEAKER_02 (00:04):
And I'm Cole.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
And you're listening to Borrowed Bones.
Today we're doing a borrowedwords episode.
SPEAKER_02 (00:11):
Oh, good.
It's been a while.
SPEAKER_00 (00:13):
Yep.
Yep.
I needed a little break.
We just finished that three-partseries on the Grimms.
SPEAKER_02 (00:18):
I wasn't in those ones.
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (00:21):
I had a guest replace me for a while.
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
Yeah, it was fun doing it with Samantha.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She seemed to enjoy it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (00:27):
Your laughter would always harmonize and it freaked
me out a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Editing that was the word.
I hated it so much.
It was so yeah, unnerving.
It kind of felt unnerving theway we sync up like that.
SPEAKER_02 (00:43):
Yeah.
And the same lilt and cadence toyour laughs.
SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
Yep.
I can't really unhear that everagain, but uh, whatever.
It is what it is.
SPEAKER_02 (00:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:53):
But yes, today I just wanted a little break, do a
borrowed words, and I thoughtit'd be fun since we are
officially in October to do atheme with this one.
It's a Halloween spooky themefor our words and phrases that
we are going to dive into today.
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
Cool.
It's my favorite time of year.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Yeah.
For anyone who's not listened toone of these, this is only our
third one.
And I do just a quick research,a little more casual.
And Cole doesn't know what Ihave written down or what I've
researched.
SPEAKER_02 (01:24):
I have no idea what words or phrases she's selected.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
So just to get started, Cole, I have the phrase
graveyard shift.
SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
Okay.
And now okay, and I'm supposedto try to speculate on why I
think the etymology or theorigin of this phrase is.
SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
Yes.
So first let's talk about whatgraveyard shift means.
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
So we know it means to work all night.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
Yeah, to work third shift usually through the night.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
Yeah, midnight to morning, dusk till dawn.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
And I assume that it comes from semit well, I
shouldn't say cemetery, butgraveyard caretakers, those who
tended graveyards for churchesovernight.
Or, you know, just generalcemetery workers.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
One might say a sexton.
SPEAKER_02 (02:15):
Yes.
There you go.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
So why are they you said they're watching it
overnight?
SPEAKER_02 (02:22):
Watch watching it overnight or just doing general
work there.
Because there's a lot like Iwould assume in the olden days a
lot of the digging and whatnotwould happen at night.
SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
Oh, oh, to keep out of the sight of the day of the
the proper people.
SPEAKER_02 (02:37):
It just kind of makes it more offensive if
there's people just diggingfuture holes in the light of
day.
So I could see it being more ofa nocturnal activity to Yeah.
Yeah.
So Yes.
Am I right or wrong?
SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
Or someone's You are among the masses, but you are
incorrect.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:56):
So I also thought that.
The thought is with that theoryis that the sextons or the
workers of the graveyard arewatching over to make sure that
no one is alive.
SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
You right?
Ringing the bell and having todig them up like from way back
in the day when people wereprematurely buried.
SPEAKER_02 (03:14):
I thought it was more to deter grave robbers who
were in the world.
Well, all of it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
And that was a part of it, but it's wrong.
unknown (03:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
Either way, it's wrong.
I thought all of the samethings, you know, because
there's a lot to do withgraveyards and a lot that
happens at night in graveyards.
But there's just nothingconnecting to that.
Maybe verbally that happened,but there's just nothing,
there's just no evidence of thatbeing the case.
Now, in the late 1800s, this iswhen we start seeing this in
(03:45):
print for the first time andhaving it used somewhat
regularly.
In the late 1800s, there were alot of coal mines.
A lot of mining needed to bedone.
And in order to mine down underthe ground, you can't see
anything, so you need to havelighting.
SPEAKER_03 (04:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:05):
Electricity at this time in the late 1800s is
expensive.
SPEAKER_03 (04:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:09):
Yes.
So it's very expensive, andobviously you put a lot of money
into that.
So most businesses or all otherbusinesses and places at this
time did not work at nightbecause it wasn't cost
effective.
Didn't make sense.
Mining, however, have to havethose lights anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (04:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
So the theory is that they're the first 24-hour
business.
SPEAKER_02 (04:31):
Okay.
That makes sense.
Because they did the little capswith the candles mounted in the
front and other things.
Oh, really?
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
I didn't look up what the lighting was.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
And they had they would, as they were digging,
they'd put candles cloud.
But yeah.
So they already got by withoutelectric light, artificial
light.
So that would make sense.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or they would have artificiallight as well.
Yeah.
Because it was cost effectivefor them to do it because they
would use it all the time.
That's what I read.
But also the candles, too.
I'm sure a mix of both.
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
And it was called the graveyard shift because
working in the mine was likeworking in a grave, working on
the ground.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Yep.
I don't I couldn't find exactlywhy specifically it was said
graveyard, because again, Ifound that there was no evidence
of it being related to thegraveyard.
The only thing I found werereferences like you said, like
it's as quiet as the dead, it'sstill, it's, you know, people
referenced it like working atnight, felt like you were
working alone, working amongstthe dead, spookier, but there's
(05:33):
no direct relation to graveyardthat I found.
The first recorded phrase ofworking the graveyard shift was
on August 9th, 1884.
It appeared in the miningrecord, which was a magazine or
a journal.
SPEAKER_02 (05:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
And it was this was in reference to an Arizona mine.
And it said, On Mondayafternoon, the superintendent
received a telegram directinghim to resume operations in the
mine.
And at 6 p.m., the graveyardshift went below.
While the whistle sounded longand loud, he keeps on going on,
but that's it.
(06:09):
The graveyard shift went below.
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
That was 1884.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
1884.
Okay.
And then there's a definition ofgraveyard shift that appears in
a Colorado court like recordsfrom 1894.
SPEAKER_02 (06:22):
Okay.
So it originated in theSouthwest, seemingly.
Colorado and Arizona.
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
I guess so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Said that several shifts were atwork, and a man named William
Sharp and his companions wereemployed on what is well termed
among the miners, the graveyardshift from midnight on to the
morning.
So this was the definition thatwas given in the Colorado court
records.
(06:49):
And then in 1897, an article inthe Salt Lake Tribune has a
quote saying, The police changedshifts for the month yesterday.
This month, Sergeant Ware takesthe morning relief, Sergeant
Rhodes, the middle, and SergeantJohn, the graveyard shift.
(07:10):
So it's just already usedregularly.
SPEAKER_02 (07:12):
But it's all all the initial accounts are in the
Southwest, which there are andwere a lot of mines.
SPEAKER_00 (07:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
In the Southwest.
I mean that's one of the mainthings that brought people
there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
There had to have been some connection with being
in the mines in the ground andhaving it feel like they're
digging their graves or thatthey're working in graves.
SPEAKER_02 (07:31):
There had to have been that joke.
They did die frequently frommishaps and black lung and
whatever.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
Yeah.
I couldn't find any evidence orwritten works of it referencing
that, but they're just it had tobe a reference.
SPEAKER_02 (07:45):
There were also phrases to I'm going to get a
little tangential, but bear withme.
But like mind speculating,because everyone was wanted to,
you know, strike it rich andthen would head west to Arizona,
New Mexico, whatever, to lookingfor silver mines, you know, to
strike it rich.
And there were people who mockedthem and said, you know, you're
only the only thing you're goingto dig out there is your grave.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (08:08):
So maybe there's some connection there.
Like the tombstone, Arizona,again Arizona.
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
Main tombstone.
SPEAKER_02 (08:13):
Because the guy who founded it was a silver miner
and he struck silver.
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
And before he left, people who mocked him said the
only thing you're going to findout there is your tombstone.
So when he did strike it rich,he ironically named the town
Tombstone.
That's funny.
Yeah.
So there's a connection justbecause it's from the same
region at like the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Yeah.
I think there has to be someconnection there.
I do.
Because that's the big I couldreally find it within the mining
world in the late 1800s, andthen that's all the same area.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's it for the graveyardshift.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
Yeah.
The next phrase I have hit me.
Is skeleton in the closet orskeletons in the closet.
SPEAKER_02 (09:00):
Meaning uh you have uh dirty secrets that you don't
want people to know about.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Yep.
It can be in reference to youyourself alone or oftentimes
with a family.
The family's got skeletons inthe closet.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:16):
Got some dirty history.
Yeah.
More often, like you said,associated with a family or a
group than an individual.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:24):
Any guesses on the origin?
SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
Give me a second here.
Why would I mean I in a literalsense, I'm assuming it started
with something literal.
Why would somebody have I meanthere's obviously the the grave
robbing if you want to getliteral, but I don't think it's
that.
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (09:44):
Um having a relative die and you don't report them as
dead and you stash them to maybecollect social security benefits
or something, but I think that'sfairly recent.
I mean, obviously socialsecurity is fairly recent.
That's just my That's not it.
Okay.
I don't know.
I don't know then.
(10:04):
Hit me.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Um well you were closer with the first two things
you were saying.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (10:08):
One of the theories is that like women, if they, you
know, not just women, butfamilies, married couples,
whoever, when they had a baby,and if the baby died young, like
as an infant, they would maybebury them in the walls.
SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
I don't know why that was a normal thing.
I don't know if it was normal.
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
Wall burials before.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Yeah, like wall burials of like infants.
SPEAKER_02 (10:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Um another is the grave robbing.
Both of them don't seem to beconnected to skeletons in the
closet, though.
Um, the biggest theor or thebiggest misconception is the
grave robbing, because you know,in the 1800s, there were a lot
of people that would sell bodiesto doctors and pre-med students
(10:52):
and all of that so they couldstudy on you know what they were
they were called?
I what is it?
I can't think of it.
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
Resurrection men, these grave robbers that would,
you know, sell body parts tocadavers for med school.
SPEAKER_00 (11:05):
And the local authorities, like the law kind
of made it easy to happen.
They didn't really track downthe like if a doctor had a dead
body, he didn't really askquestions.
SPEAKER_03 (11:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
The authorities wouldn't.
Anyway, we're sidetracking.
SPEAKER_03 (11:17):
That has nothing to do with skeleton in the closet.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
So skeleton in the closet, it was coined in England
in the 19th century.
SPEAKER_03 (11:26):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
And I was a little confused at this at first
because in England, closet, isit water closet, like the
toilet?
And no.
So it was first used in England.
Yeah, I was confused.
I was like, this doesn't makesense.
SPEAKER_02 (11:40):
What is skeletons in the loo?
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
Yeah, yeah.
But I guess back in the day,England did say closet the way
we did.
I have no clue if that's true,but according to this phrase,
I'm extrapolating from this.
Um, the phrase was original, itdid say closet, meaning like a
closet in America or a cupboardin England.
Okay.
And then as time went on,England now says water closet,
(12:03):
meaning toilet, but they don'tsay skeleton in the closet
anymore.
They say skeleton in thecupboard.
SPEAKER_01 (12:10):
Okay.
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
So their phrase changed a little bit.
Yeah, but stayed the samebecause closet is still closet.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
I don't know if anyone else was going to get
sidetracked by that, but I wentdown a 30-minute rabbit hole
with that.
unknown (12:22):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:22):
All right.
Skeleton in a closet alludes to,like we said, a person or a
family having a guilty secretwaiting to be uncovered.
And the thought is that theimagery of a closet or a
cupboard being nearby, you know,you pass by a closet or a
cupboard all the time.
And you just, and all it takesis one person to open that door
(12:43):
to discover it, but it's kind ofhidden in plain sight.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
It's mundane.
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (12:47):
It's banal.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
Now, what isn't clear is whether the origin is
like real or if it's more justfiction.
I'm leaning on more not fiction,but just um metaphorical.
Metaphorical.
It was always metaphorical.
Yeah, I don't think it reallyever was literal.
I don't think there was a personthat this was based off of or
(13:11):
some tradition or killer in the1800s that stashed all those
victims' bones.
One theory points to Bluebeard.
SPEAKER_02 (13:23):
I was just gonna say Bluebeard.
SPEAKER_00 (13:25):
The French fable?
SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
The the yeah, the opposite of a black widow that
the the guy, the husband thatkills a serial wife killer.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Yes, okay, so Bluebeard, yes, yeah, is a
French fable featured in CharlesPeral's famous collection of
fairy tales in 1697.
But I do have to say something,the Grimms are better
collectors.
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Shameless plug.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Yeah, I know.
No, no, no.
I just the Grimms aren't theonly ones that collected fairy
tales.
There were a lot of people doingthe time, blah, blah, blah,
whatever.
He was fine.
Anyway, Cinderella, yay.
Uh, France.
But um Cinderella's from anyway,yes, sidetrack.
So the French fable, Bluebeard.
And do you want to tell us or doyou want me to tell you?
(14:14):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (14:14):
I just saw the broad strokes that like because I know
it's still the phrase is kind ofstill used today, it's to refer
to like just a husband thatkills his wife will be called
like a bluebeard.
Oh, that kills her husband willbe called like a black widow.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
Oh, okay.
I never thought of that.
Or I never heard that be used inthat way.
SPEAKER_02 (14:36):
Yeah, it's not I mean that comment anymore, but
back in like the 50s and 60swhen men were killing women.
Or well, when when journalismwas more was using more colorful
terminology.
SPEAKER_00 (14:50):
Oh, a little more flowery, a little punchier.
Yeah, the bluebeard.
SPEAKER_02 (14:54):
Yeah, local bluebeard.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:56):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
But we kinda don't do that anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:59):
I'm gonna bring it back.
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
Yeah, bring it back.
Bring it back.
Yeah.
But they don't do it likeregularly.
Yeah, and I think Bluebeard isanyway.
Let's get into it.
SPEAKER_01 (15:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
In the story, Bluebeard, he is the wealthy man
who forbids his wife fromentering a specific room in
their castle.
And then one day she disobeys tofind the room filled with
corpses of his previous wives.
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah.
I didn't read the whole story.
I just did a quick little Yeah.
(15:34):
I knew there was a discovery ofYeah, she discovers all of the
skeletons.
SPEAKER_02 (15:38):
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:39):
So the thought, I think it's probably sprung from
this, and then people took itfrom there.
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
Yeah, that's yeah.
I honestly was thinkingBluebeard right before you said
it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:50):
There's a lecture in the year 1815 by Joseph Adams.
He mentions people's impulse toconceal the skeleton in the
closet.
And he's referencing theskeleton as being family history
of uh hereditary diseaseillnesses.
And there's a lot of referencesto that as well.
(16:13):
Like people fearing theskeletons in their closet being
family history trauma diseases.
I'm not sure why.
SPEAKER_02 (16:22):
I mean, if they understood genetics at the time,
it would make more sense, butobviously they didn't, in the
sense that like the skeleton isgoing to be an ancestor, and
maybe you know, if they had agenetic disorder, it'll be still
living in the kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (16:38):
Like the family curse kind of thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the phrase was first used inthe early 1800s in the UK
monthly periodical, the eclecticreview.
It says two great sources ofdistress are the danger of
contagion and the apprehensionof hereditary diseases.
The dread of being the cause ofmisery.
(17:01):
So basically, it's just veryflowery in saying we're scared
of hereditary diseases.
And it says that men need toconceal the skeleton in the
closet.
And that's what this review saidin 1816.
And then there's this author,William Thackeray.
(17:23):
Do you know his name?
SPEAKER_02 (17:24):
I've heard it's named by hand.
Thackeray.
Okay.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
I don't know if he's popular or not, but I don't know
him.
SPEAKER_02 (17:31):
I've heard the name, but I can't think of anything
he's written.
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
William Thackeray, he further popularized the
phrase in 1845 when writing inPunch magazine.
He wrote, There is a skeleton inevery house.
And then he went even furtherbecause he's a Victorian author.
He went even further and wrotethe Newcombs, which is a family
(17:55):
name, like someone's familyname, like the Newcombs, memoirs
of a most respectable family.
He wrote that in 1854, 1855.
And in it he says, someparticulars regarding the
Newcomb family, which will showus that they have a skeleton or
two in their closets, as well astheir neighbors.
(18:17):
The phrase caught on during theVictorian era.
I mean, just think of theVictorian era.
They're very into death, veryinto the macabre, and they
always have this veneer and thisshiny, glowy, front-facing look
to them, this aesthetic.
And they're not allowed to showanything underneath that's bad.
(18:39):
So the thought is that thisphrase got really big when
Victorian era came about becausethey were so intrigued by
hiding, because they had to hideeverything so much.
Even when they mourned, they hidso much.
Like you couldn't have emotion,you had to dress certain ways
for certain times.
Yeah, everything is suppressed.
So the thought is that this iswhy it's becoming a phrase so
(19:02):
much now.
We have Bluebeard, which waswritten in 1697, and then it's
not until the mid to late 1800sthat it really becomes a thing.
I just think it had to wait forthe Victorian era to really
catch on.
SPEAKER_03 (19:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
It's used a little more lightly now, though.
It's not so intense, like wayback in the day, skeletons in
the closet meant like exposingsomething major.
You're really toppling things.
You've ruined everything.
Now, today it's just used forbig stuff, little things, all
the things, even referencingcoming out of the closet.
(19:39):
That comes from this skeletonsin the closet.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
So I thought that was interesting to see how
skeletons into the light of day.
SPEAKER_00 (19:45):
Yeah, yep.
Dragon the skeletons into thelight of day.
Yes.
But yeah, I thought that was aninteresting one.
The bluebeard thing wassurprising.
I didn't even think of that.
I don't know the story ofBluebeard very well, but I
thought that was interestingthat it came from most likely a
fairy tale.
Yeah.
This one I found is just theword haunt or to haunt or
(20:07):
haunting haunt.
SPEAKER_02 (20:10):
Um I don't believe it starts necessarily or has its
origins with ghosts.
I would just think it means tooccupy, to be to be to be at, to
occupy, to be present at.
You haunt.
I mean you don't have to be aghost to haunt in the classical
sense of the the word.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
Like Yeah.
Yeah.
You're almost there.
Yes.
Ish.
So the word haunt it can betraced back to the old French
word haunter.
I don't know how to pronounce itin the accent.
Which means to or meant tofrequent or to visit regularly.
(20:51):
Okay.
So repetitively you're goingback and forth back and forth.
Haunt also traces back to oldNorse um hemp, meaning to bring
home.
And over time, the word hauntsort of evolved into something
more intangible, like the hauntof bringing home, the ghost
coming home.
SPEAKER_03 (21:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:11):
But it doesn't really mean just to visit or
frequent.
You have to have this emotionalpull or connection to it.
So like your favorite haunts.
You like them because you'renostalgic about them.
They they bring you goodfeelings, good memories, good
thoughts, or like, oh, that's myold haunt back in the day.
Maybe you don't like that place.
Maybe I don't want to go there.
SPEAKER_02 (21:30):
It's more personal.
Yeah.
Like that's an old site.
Yes.
That's an old spot.
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Yeah, one of my haunts.
SPEAKER_02 (21:35):
Yeah.
unknown (21:36):
Over.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
Sort of my hangouts.
Yeah.
Kind of like I guess hangoutsmore is more just like fun.
SPEAKER_00 (21:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
But I mean, today, like it's more modern than
modern equivalent.
SPEAKER_00 (21:48):
Yeah.
Over time, haunt came todescribe more disconcerting or
unsettling.
Like over time, Haunt had moreof a unsettling insidious
quality.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
More like thoughts or memories reoccurring that you
don't want to keep happening.
You're haunted by things.
An old adage is he who has ahaunted heart has a troubled
mind.
And that kind of hints at howbeing plagued by memories can
disturb one's peace, showingthat haunt has like been a long
(22:22):
metaphor for emotional unrest.
Haunted by my thoughts.
No one's thinking of happythoughts when you say I'm
haunted by my thoughts.
SPEAKER_02 (22:29):
Haunted by pleasant memories.
Yes.
You just experience you relishand whatever you experience
pleasant.
Yeah, you're haunted by badmemories.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:37):
I'm threatening you if I'm saying I'll haunt you
once I'm dead.
Like that's a threat.
And then as time went on, it'sthe thought that this lingering
nature of the memories and thethoughts, that's what led to the
word being used in reference toghosts haunting places.
Because the word ghost I didread was first.
So like the ghost is haunting.
(22:58):
So again, going back to theNorse definition of returning
home, repeating it.
And I think those two together,and you know, the thought that
ghosts repeat the same thingover and over again, or they're
caught in the same memory, thesame loop.
That's a theory too aboutghosts.
There's certain energies arecaught in the same loop over and
over again.
(23:18):
So haunt, I think, justnaturally got sucked into that
ghostly world, that ghostlyrealm.
It just seems to match veryeasily.
SPEAKER_02 (23:29):
And then I think from haunt, you eventually get
haint, where that's just theghost or the entity itself
becomes like the noun, like aghost.
Oh yeah.
And then it just becomes it is ahint, which is like a I don't
know the etymology, it's anAmericanism.
SPEAKER_00 (23:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:45):
Um, I believe.
But uh so haint is H A I N T.
SPEAKER_00 (23:51):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (23:51):
Yeah, you just replace the U with an I.
And that's a ghost.
And that's the a ghost or anentity or something.
Right, okay.
Something in the supernatural.
SPEAKER_00 (23:58):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe I'll have to look up thatone.
Well shoot.
I should have looked that oneup, but I'm I don't have my
phone on me or anything here.
So oh well.
Sorry, listeners, look it upyourself.
SPEAKER_02 (24:10):
Look up yourself, you're on the internet.
SPEAKER_00 (24:11):
Thanks.
All right.
And the next one, it's my lastone.
I just wanted to do a quick onetoday because you're now not
feeling well and I'm gettingover my sickness.
So this one was supposed to benice and quick and light.
SPEAKER_02 (24:25):
It is so far.
I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Yes.
The last one is the phrase trickor treat.
SPEAKER_02 (24:33):
Okay.
The actual phrase.
Okay, I don't know the error.
I mean, obviously, I know thewhole Halloween goes back to the
Celts and the Foods.
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
Yeah, I'm not doing a whole Halloween history.
We know I'm not asking what istrick-or-treating.
I'm asking the words trick ortreat.
Oh, because we knowtrick-or-treating is a Halloween
thing.
And you go out on Halloween andyou go house to house and you
yell trick-or-treat, and thenyou get a treat from the person
at the door.
SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
Yeah, I guess we should say this to our
international audience.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
It's pretty well known by now, I'm sure, but just
I like to stay within the formatthat I'm in.
I I I needed this for me.
And for anyone who might notknow, but I I needed this for
me.
So yes, the words trick ortreat, why do we say those
words?
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
Um I think I I I'm gonna speculate here.
Um, because I know like Americanthe American version of the
trick-or-treating holiday kindof started in in Kansas in like
the 19 early 1900s.
The one woman kept gettingRight, right.
Yes, kept getting vandalized bylike kids.
SPEAKER_00 (25:37):
Yes, there was a woman, yes.
And she like organized likeevery Halloween her garden would
get turned upside down andvandalized by hoodlums, kids
running amok on Halloween night.
SPEAKER_02 (25:48):
She was like, we gotta give these kids something
to do with it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:49):
She started like a party basically and was like,
give them goodies.
SPEAKER_02 (25:52):
Yeah.
And so I would guess it wouldstart around there with the it
meaning like it's kind of a youknow tongue-in-cheek threat.
Give us a treat, or we'll do atrick to you.
Like we'll we'll play a prank onyou kind of thing.
Like it's kind of a yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:09):
That's what I thought as well, but the phrase
trick or treat didn't come aboutthat early on.
It was a lot later.
Yeah, people were going thekids, what we said is true.
They did the act of trick ortreating.
They did the act of goingthrough, but I don't know what
they would say if they saidanything at all, or if they just
knocked and need to sayanything.
Right.
(26:29):
So before saying trick or treat,people were still going house to
house.
They would ask for treats, food,whatever, and this was during
Sawin or Sowen.
SPEAKER_02 (26:41):
Yeah.
At least you didn't say SamHain.
SPEAKER_00 (26:44):
No, I did not.
SPEAKER_02 (26:45):
Dower.
SPEAKER_00 (26:46):
But yeah.
Um sowen is a festival,festivities during like ancient
Celtic times.
And this is what laid thefoundation for trick-or-treating
for the thing.
And then this woman, yeah, as wetalked about, did her whole
like, let's give them somethingfun to do and have them go house
to house and look for things.
(27:07):
Yeah.
But how did we get the singsonggy trick or treat?
How did people start saying,You're chewing?
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
Sorry, I have a throat loss and sh and it would
be picked up.
I thought I would hear that.
SPEAKER_00 (27:18):
You chewed, you didn't move your mouth at all.
It's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (27:21):
Well, my mouth is closed.
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
Anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (27:25):
Um well the candy companies.
Is it an advertising gimmick?
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
No, no, no.
I'll tell you.
You're never gonna guess this.
Let me tell you, okay.
Okay.
It started with souling.
S-O-U-L-I-N-G.
Okay.
So this became a thing inmedieval Europe.
Is it's lasted longer, but thisis the beginning of it.
People would walk door to doorand they would offer prayers for
(27:52):
people's souls that were stuckin purgatory.
Oh.
And in return, the dead'srelatives, the people in the
house, would give these prayersor these soulers, so I don't
know if they're called that, butI'm calling them that.
Give these soulers soul cakes orgoodies treats, but fun to call
everything a soul cake.
(28:13):
This was a Catholic practicedone on All Souls Day, which is
November 2nd of every year.
And this was pretty common eveninto the 1800s to do something
like this.
So that's how they think trickor treat started to come about,
mixed with adults saying, Hey,have a treat instead of doing
(28:34):
tricks.
Like it is kind of a threat.
Yeah.
It is, like it truly is.
But I still couldn't figure outwhy the words trick-or-treat
were a thing.
Because I was like, why are welike, how did we get there?
And I couldn't really find agood answer for it.
It is something that just kindof happened.
But like we said earlier, it'san ultimatum for the children
who again are typically runningaround, ruining people's
(28:56):
gardens, ruining people'shouses, like just vandalizing
everything.
SPEAKER_02 (29:00):
Halloween in like 19 teens was like it was rough.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, it was really, reallyrough.
SPEAKER_02 (29:04):
It was bad, apparently.
But it was bad because weorganized a whole holiday to
stop teen ruffians.
SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
Yes.
And I still couldn't findexactly why trick-or-treat.
I can only think it was a quickphrase to say mixed with the
souling, mixed with thedoor-to-door, all these things
blending together over time.
Now, in the early 20th century,so we're looking at 1928 here,
the first American newspaperthat printed the phrase was a
(29:36):
Michigan newspaper.
SPEAKER_03 (29:37):
Ooh.
SPEAKER_00 (29:38):
And well, the newspaper was the Bay City
Times.
No way.
November 1st, 1928, baby.
Wait a minute.
SPEAKER_02 (29:47):
This is the first recorded use in American.
SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
It was first used in like other in Canada.
I think I don't know if theywere the very first ones, but
they might have been the secondor first ones.
No, I've got the newspaper.
Article right up here.
I'm gonna read straight from theBay City Times 1928, November
1st, article.
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
Is there a writer credited?
Not that I would I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (30:11):
I didn't look that hard, but I maybe at the
beginning of the paper, but Ionly have this one clip, so I
don't know.
All right.
So I'm reading this, I'm readingthis little article from a 1928
Bay City.
SPEAKER_02 (30:22):
97 years ago.
SPEAKER_00 (30:23):
So for anyone who's just catch filling in right now
and doesn't know us from otherepisodes, I guess.
This is Cole's job.
This is who he works for rightnow.
unknown (30:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:33):
Like this is wild for us.
And I did not even intend tofigure this out or find this.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
I'm gonna have an interesting factoid to tell my
coworkers tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
I already told everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (30:44):
While you were at court.
Sorry.
Oh shit.
Yep, they already know.
One coworker might do an articleon it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
Goddamn Joey.
SPEAKER_00 (30:51):
Yeah.
So anyway, the article is titledTricks or Treats.
Question mark.
So it's plural.
Okay.
Tricks or treats.
Question mark.
What is this?
And here we go.
Quoting.
The black hand gang itself,that's capitalized.
(31:13):
So there must have been a blackhand gang in Bay City.
SPEAKER_02 (31:16):
Maybe there's I want to figure it out.
Yeah, I guess so.
SPEAKER_00 (31:21):
So the black hand gang itself would envy the
activities of some of thechildren of Bay City if it could
see them in the midst of theirpractice of the gentle art of
blackmail.
But like duck shooting,blackmail is a seasonable sport.
And that season was closed lastnight after about six weeks
(31:43):
during which trade was plied forfur with fervor.
So this is November 1st, the dayafter Halloween.
So season is closed.
I don't know what's six weeks,what they were doing for six
weeks, but that seems like along-September.
There's six weeks of likeharvest.
Yeah.
Maybe that's what he means, likeharvest season.
Anyway.
Farming village.
(32:04):
Um he goes on to say in fact,regular beats were developed by
the children, and the peacefulcitizens lived in terror of the
time each evening when theyshould be summoned to their
front doors to hear the fatalultimatum tricks or treats
uttered in a merciless tone bysome small child who clutched in
(32:26):
one grubby fist a small chunk ofI don't know what this word is,
a small chunk of scap capable ofeliminating the transparency
from any number of windows.
Oh, oh, it's cut out soap.
Okay, so he's throwing soap toeliminate the transparency from
any number of windows.
Y'all, he's talking aboutbreaking windows with a soap
(32:47):
bar.
This is beautifully written.
Oh, the none too subtle are ofblackmail.
And woe betide any housekeeperwho had not the proper supply of
apples, cookies, candy, orpeanuts on hand to avert the
disaster.
Though they were stale to thecrumbling point, yet they served
(33:07):
to assuage the unbelievableappetites of the Halloweeners.
But that is all over now, andall the unfortunates have is
bitter memories, and all theHalloweeners have is stomach
aches.
SPEAKER_02 (33:21):
That's so awesome.
I need to find that.
SPEAKER_00 (33:25):
Joey already found it.
SPEAKER_02 (33:27):
Alright, I need to like ask like we'll talk later
how you found this.
Is this like on Wikipedia?
Like how like how do you findlike the I have my sources, I'll
show you.
SPEAKER_00 (33:37):
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:37):
Like how you confirm like this was like the first
American usage of it in print.
I want to like that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (33:43):
I found that in two sources.
Oh, okay.
That's good.
I mean, it's two sources that Ifound it as being the first.
So I I'm pretty sure it is.
Okay.
I was like, I don't if you needmore than two, then you can fuck
off.
Now, by the 1940s and 50s, thephrase was becoming more
popular.
The peanuts comics were nowusing it.
Charlie Brown said it in one ofthe comic strips in 1951.
(34:06):
Okay.
And then in 1952, Disneyproduced a cartoon called Trick
or Treat featuring Donald Duckand his nephews, Huey, Dewey,
and Louie.
And the rest is history.
That's when it really started tobecome a thing.
So 40s and 50s is when we'rereally saying trick or treat.
But trick or treating washappening well before that.
Yeah.
But the phrase trick or treat.
SPEAKER_02 (34:28):
It's also when TVs are first starting to get into.
I mean, it's the post-World WarII.
SPEAKER_00 (34:32):
Oh, that's true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:33):
The boomer era.
TVs are getting in advertising.
We're more connected than we'veever been.
SPEAKER_00 (34:39):
That's true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:40):
Like 50s culture.
SPEAKER_00 (34:42):
Yeah.
Yep.
I just want to do a quick funone there.
Um, I hope everyone has a funstart to their October and it's
not too shitty.
Also, we have the government wasshut down.
Sorry.
That was I didn't mean to make ajoke.
I'm sorry.
Anyway.
Merch.
SPEAKER_02 (34:59):
We got merch.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
We have merch now.
Happy October.
Yes, we do have merch though,for real.
Um, I made a merch website.
It's pretty cool, and I'veordered some of the clothes for
myself, and I'm wearing, I'mlike touching myself.
That sounds weird if you can'tsee me.
I'm touching my shoulders and myarms because the sweater I'm
wearing is actually verycomfortable.
I wasn't sure what I wasgetting, and I I made a good
(35:22):
choice, you guys.
I'm proud of myself.
So check out our merch.
It is borrowedbonespodcast.com,or you can follow us on
Instagram at borrowedbonespodcast, and the link to
the merch is in my bio.
SPEAKER_02 (35:35):
Yeah, it's like shirts and mugs, sweaters, mugs,
phone cases, hats, all the allthe normal bags, yeah.
Yeah, merch.
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
Whips, chains, whistles, yo yos.
Whistles, yo yo.
SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
If anyone gets that reference, you're awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
Yeah, yeah.
That's all, yeah.
Good deep cut.
But yeah, that's it.
So thank you for listening.
Happy October, and hopefullyboth of us are fully better in
the next recording.
Yeah.
Bye.
SPEAKER_01 (36:03):
Bye.
Hello everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (00:02):
Hey everyone.
SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
I'm Sarah.
SPEAKER_02 (00:04):
And I'm Cole.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
And you're listening to Borrowed Bones.
Today we're doing a borrowedwords episode.
SPEAKER_02 (00:11):
Oh, good.
It's been a while.
SPEAKER_00 (00:13):
Yep.
Yep.
I needed a little break.
We just finished that three-partseries on the Grimms.
SPEAKER_02 (00:18):
I wasn't in those ones.
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (00:21):
I had a guest replace me for a while.
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
Yeah, it was fun doing it with Samantha.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She seemed to enjoy it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (00:27):
Your laughter would always harmonize and it freaked
me out a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Editing that was the word.
I hated it so much.
It was so yeah, unnerving.
It kind of felt unnerving theway we sync up like that.
SPEAKER_02 (00:43):
Yeah.
And the same lilt and cadence toyour laughs.
SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
Yep.
I can't really unhear that everagain, but uh, whatever.
It is what it is.
SPEAKER_02 (00:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (00:53):
But yes, today I just wanted a little break, do a
borrowed words, and I thoughtit'd be fun since we are
officially in October to do atheme with this one.
It's a Halloween spooky themefor our words and phrases that
we are going to dive into today.
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
Cool.
It's my favorite time of year.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Yeah.
For anyone who's not listened toone of these, this is only our
third one.
And I do just a quick research,a little more casual.
And Cole doesn't know what Ihave written down or what I've
researched.
SPEAKER_02 (01:24):
I have no idea what words or phrases she's selected.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
So just to get started, Cole, I have the phrase
graveyard shift.
SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
Okay.
And now okay, and I'm supposedto try to speculate on why I
think the etymology or theorigin of this phrase is.
SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
Yes.
So first let's talk about whatgraveyard shift means.
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
So we know it means to work all night.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
Yeah, to work third shift usually through the night.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
Yeah, midnight to morning, dusk till dawn.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
And I assume that it comes from semit well, I
shouldn't say cemetery, butgraveyard caretakers, those who
tended graveyards for churchesovernight.
Or, you know, just generalcemetery workers.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
One might say a sexton.
SPEAKER_02 (02:15):
Yes.
There you go.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
So why are they you said they're watching it
overnight?
SPEAKER_02 (02:22):
Watch watching it overnight or just doing general
work there.
Because there's a lot like Iwould assume in the olden days a
lot of the digging and whatnotwould happen at night.
SPEAKER_00 (02:32):
Oh, oh, to keep out of the sight of the day of the
the proper people.
SPEAKER_02 (02:37):
It just kind of makes it more offensive if
there's people just diggingfuture holes in the light of
day.
So I could see it being more ofa nocturnal activity to Yeah.
Yeah.
So Yes.
Am I right or wrong?
SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
Or someone's You are among the masses, but you are
incorrect.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:56):
So I also thought that.
The thought is with that theoryis that the sextons or the
workers of the graveyard arewatching over to make sure that
no one is alive.
SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
You right?
Ringing the bell and having todig them up like from way back
in the day when people wereprematurely buried.
SPEAKER_02 (03:14):
I thought it was more to deter grave robbers who
were in the world.
Well, all of it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
And that was a part of it, but it's wrong.
unknown (03:21):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
Either way, it's wrong.
I thought all of the samethings, you know, because
there's a lot to do withgraveyards and a lot that
happens at night in graveyards.
But there's just nothingconnecting to that.
Maybe verbally that happened,but there's just nothing,
there's just no evidence of thatbeing the case.
Now, in the late 1800s, this iswhen we start seeing this in
(03:45):
print for the first time andhaving it used somewhat
regularly.
In the late 1800s, there were alot of coal mines.
A lot of mining needed to bedone.
And in order to mine down underthe ground, you can't see
anything, so you need to havelighting.
SPEAKER_03 (04:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:05):
Electricity at this time in the late 1800s is
expensive.
SPEAKER_03 (04:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:09):
Yes.
So it's very expensive, andobviously you put a lot of money
into that.
So most businesses or all otherbusinesses and places at this
time did not work at nightbecause it wasn't cost
effective.
Didn't make sense.
Mining, however, have to havethose lights anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (04:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
So the theory is that they're the first 24-hour
business.
SPEAKER_02 (04:31):
Okay.
That makes sense.
Because they did the little capswith the candles mounted in the
front and other things.
Oh, really?
SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
I didn't look up what the lighting was.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
And they had they would, as they were digging,
they'd put candles cloud.
But yeah.
So they already got by withoutelectric light, artificial
light.
So that would make sense.
SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or they would have artificiallight as well.
Yeah.
Because it was cost effectivefor them to do it because they
would use it all the time.
That's what I read.
But also the candles, too.
I'm sure a mix of both.
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
And it was called the graveyard shift because
working in the mine was likeworking in a grave, working on
the ground.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Yep.
I don't I couldn't find exactlywhy specifically it was said
graveyard, because again, Ifound that there was no evidence
of it being related to thegraveyard.
The only thing I found werereferences like you said, like
it's as quiet as the dead, it'sstill, it's, you know, people
referenced it like working atnight, felt like you were
working alone, working amongstthe dead, spookier, but there's
(05:33):
no direct relation to graveyardthat I found.
The first recorded phrase ofworking the graveyard shift was
on August 9th, 1884.
It appeared in the miningrecord, which was a magazine or
a journal.
SPEAKER_02 (05:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
And it was this was in reference to an Arizona mine.
And it said, On Mondayafternoon, the superintendent
received a telegram directinghim to resume operations in the
mine.
And at 6 p.m., the graveyardshift went below.
While the whistle sounded longand loud, he keeps on going on,
but that's it.
(06:09):
The graveyard shift went below.
SPEAKER_02 (06:11):
That was 1884.
SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
1884.
Okay.
And then there's a definition ofgraveyard shift that appears in
a Colorado court like recordsfrom 1894.
SPEAKER_02 (06:22):
Okay.
So it originated in theSouthwest, seemingly.
Colorado and Arizona.
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
I guess so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Said that several shifts were atwork, and a man named William
Sharp and his companions wereemployed on what is well termed
among the miners, the graveyardshift from midnight on to the
morning.
So this was the definition thatwas given in the Colorado court
records.
(06:49):
And then in 1897, an article inthe Salt Lake Tribune has a
quote saying, The police changedshifts for the month yesterday.
This month, Sergeant Ware takesthe morning relief, Sergeant
Rhodes, the middle, and SergeantJohn, the graveyard shift.
(07:10):
So it's just already usedregularly.
SPEAKER_02 (07:12):
But it's all all the initial accounts are in the
Southwest, which there are andwere a lot of mines.
SPEAKER_00 (07:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
In the Southwest.
I mean that's one of the mainthings that brought people
there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
There had to have been some connection with being
in the mines in the ground andhaving it feel like they're
digging their graves or thatthey're working in graves.
SPEAKER_02 (07:31):
There had to have been that joke.
They did die frequently frommishaps and black lung and
whatever.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
Yeah.
I couldn't find any evidence orwritten works of it referencing
that, but they're just it had tobe a reference.
SPEAKER_02 (07:45):
There were also phrases to I'm going to get a
little tangential, but bear withme.
But like mind speculating,because everyone was wanted to,
you know, strike it rich andthen would head west to Arizona,
New Mexico, whatever, to lookingfor silver mines, you know, to
strike it rich.
And there were people who mockedthem and said, you know, you're
only the only thing you're goingto dig out there is your grave.
SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (08:08):
So maybe there's some connection there.
Like the tombstone, Arizona,again Arizona.
SPEAKER_00 (08:12):
Main tombstone.
SPEAKER_02 (08:13):
Because the guy who founded it was a silver miner
and he struck silver.
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
And before he left, people who mocked him said the
only thing you're going to findout there is your tombstone.
So when he did strike it rich,he ironically named the town
Tombstone.
That's funny.
Yeah.
So there's a connection justbecause it's from the same
region at like the same time.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Yeah.
I think there has to be someconnection there.
I do.
Because that's the big I couldreally find it within the mining
world in the late 1800s, andthen that's all the same area.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's it for the graveyardshift.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
Yeah.
The next phrase I have hit me.
Is skeleton in the closet orskeletons in the closet.
SPEAKER_02 (09:00):
Meaning uh you have uh dirty secrets that you don't
want people to know about.
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Yep.
It can be in reference to youyourself alone or oftentimes
with a family.
The family's got skeletons inthe closet.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:16):
Got some dirty history.
Yeah.
More often, like you said,associated with a family or a
group than an individual.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:24):
Any guesses on the origin?
SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
Give me a second here.
Why would I mean I in a literalsense, I'm assuming it started
with something literal.
Why would somebody have I meanthere's obviously the the grave
robbing if you want to getliteral, but I don't think it's
that.
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (09:44):
Um having a relative die and you don't report them as
dead and you stash them to maybecollect social security benefits
or something, but I think that'sfairly recent.
I mean, obviously socialsecurity is fairly recent.
That's just my That's not it.
Okay.
I don't know.
I don't know then.
(10:04):
Hit me.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Um well you were closer with the first two things
you were saying.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (10:08):
One of the theories is that like women, if they, you
know, not just women, butfamilies, married couples,
whoever, when they had a baby,and if the baby died young, like
as an infant, they would maybebury them in the walls.
SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (10:23):
I don't know why that was a normal thing.
I don't know if it was normal.
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
Wall burials before.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Yeah, like wall burials of like infants.
SPEAKER_02 (10:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Um another is the grave robbing.
Both of them don't seem to beconnected to skeletons in the
closet, though.
Um, the biggest theor or thebiggest misconception is the
grave robbing, because you know,in the 1800s, there were a lot
of people that would sell bodiesto doctors and pre-med students
(10:52):
and all of that so they couldstudy on you know what they were
they were called?
I what is it?
I can't think of it.
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
Resurrection men, these grave robbers that would,
you know, sell body parts tocadavers for med school.
SPEAKER_00 (11:05):
And the local authorities, like the law kind
of made it easy to happen.
They didn't really track downthe like if a doctor had a dead
body, he didn't really askquestions.
SPEAKER_03 (11:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
The authorities wouldn't.
Anyway, we're sidetracking.
SPEAKER_03 (11:17):
That has nothing to do with skeleton in the closet.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
So skeleton in the closet, it was coined in England
in the 19th century.
SPEAKER_03 (11:26):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
And I was a little confused at this at first
because in England, closet, isit water closet, like the
toilet?
And no.
So it was first used in England.
Yeah, I was confused.
I was like, this doesn't makesense.
SPEAKER_02 (11:40):
What is skeletons in the loo?
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
Yeah, yeah.
But I guess back in the day,England did say closet the way
we did.
I have no clue if that's true,but according to this phrase,
I'm extrapolating from this.
Um, the phrase was original, itdid say closet, meaning like a
closet in America or a cupboardin England.
Okay.
And then as time went on,England now says water closet,
(12:03):
meaning toilet, but they don'tsay skeleton in the closet
anymore.
They say skeleton in thecupboard.
SPEAKER_01 (12:10):
Okay.
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
So their phrase changed a little bit.
Yeah, but stayed the samebecause closet is still closet.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
I don't know if anyone else was going to get
sidetracked by that, but I wentdown a 30-minute rabbit hole
with that.
unknown (12:22):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:22):
All right.
Skeleton in a closet alludes to,like we said, a person or a
family having a guilty secretwaiting to be uncovered.
And the thought is that theimagery of a closet or a
cupboard being nearby, you know,you pass by a closet or a
cupboard all the time.
And you just, and all it takesis one person to open that door
(12:43):
to discover it, but it's kind ofhidden in plain sight.
SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
It's mundane.
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (12:47):
It's banal.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
Now, what isn't clear is whether the origin is
like real or if it's more justfiction.
I'm leaning on more not fiction,but just um metaphorical.
Metaphorical.
It was always metaphorical.
Yeah, I don't think it reallyever was literal.
I don't think there was a personthat this was based off of or
(13:11):
some tradition or killer in the1800s that stashed all those
victims' bones.
One theory points to Bluebeard.
SPEAKER_02 (13:23):
I was just gonna say Bluebeard.
SPEAKER_00 (13:25):
The French fable?
SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
The the yeah, the opposite of a black widow that
the the guy, the husband thatkills a serial wife killer.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Yes, okay, so Bluebeard, yes, yeah, is a
French fable featured in CharlesPeral's famous collection of
fairy tales in 1697.
But I do have to say something,the Grimms are better
collectors.
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Shameless plug.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Yeah, I know.
No, no, no.
I just the Grimms aren't theonly ones that collected fairy
tales.
There were a lot of people doingthe time, blah, blah, blah,
whatever.
He was fine.
Anyway, Cinderella, yay.
Uh, France.
But um Cinderella's from anyway,yes, sidetrack.
So the French fable, Bluebeard.
And do you want to tell us or doyou want me to tell you?
(14:14):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (14:14):
I just saw the broad strokes that like because I know
it's still the phrase is kind ofstill used today, it's to refer
to like just a husband thatkills his wife will be called
like a bluebeard.
Oh, that kills her husband willbe called like a black widow.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
Oh, okay.
I never thought of that.
Or I never heard that be used inthat way.
SPEAKER_02 (14:36):
Yeah, it's not I mean that comment anymore, but
back in like the 50s and 60swhen men were killing women.
Or well, when when journalismwas more was using more colorful
terminology.
SPEAKER_00 (14:50):
Oh, a little more flowery, a little punchier.
Yeah, the bluebeard.
SPEAKER_02 (14:54):
Yeah, local bluebeard.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:56):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
But we kinda don't do that anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:59):
I'm gonna bring it back.
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
Yeah, bring it back.
Bring it back.
Yeah.
But they don't do it likeregularly.
Yeah, and I think Bluebeard isanyway.
Let's get into it.
SPEAKER_01 (15:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
In the story, Bluebeard, he is the wealthy man
who forbids his wife fromentering a specific room in
their castle.
And then one day she disobeys tofind the room filled with
corpses of his previous wives.
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah.
I didn't read the whole story.
I just did a quick little Yeah.
(15:34):
I knew there was a discovery ofYeah, she discovers all of the
skeletons.
SPEAKER_02 (15:38):
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:39):
So the thought, I think it's probably sprung from
this, and then people took itfrom there.
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
Yeah, that's yeah.
I honestly was thinkingBluebeard right before you said
it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:50):
There's a lecture in the year 1815 by Joseph Adams.
He mentions people's impulse toconceal the skeleton in the
closet.
And he's referencing theskeleton as being family history
of uh hereditary diseaseillnesses.
And there's a lot of referencesto that as well.
(16:13):
Like people fearing theskeletons in their closet being
family history trauma diseases.
I'm not sure why.
SPEAKER_02 (16:22):
I mean, if they understood genetics at the time,
it would make more sense, butobviously they didn't, in the
sense that like the skeleton isgoing to be an ancestor, and
maybe you know, if they had agenetic disorder, it'll be still
living in the kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (16:38):
Like the family curse kind of thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the phrase was first used inthe early 1800s in the UK
monthly periodical, the eclecticreview.
It says two great sources ofdistress are the danger of
contagion and the apprehensionof hereditary diseases.
The dread of being the cause ofmisery.
(17:01):
So basically, it's just veryflowery in saying we're scared
of hereditary diseases.
And it says that men need toconceal the skeleton in the
closet.
And that's what this review saidin 1816.
And then there's this author,William Thackeray.
(17:23):
Do you know his name?
SPEAKER_02 (17:24):
I've heard it's named by hand.
Thackeray.
Okay.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
I don't know if he's popular or not, but I don't know
him.
SPEAKER_02 (17:31):
I've heard the name, but I can't think of anything
he's written.
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
William Thackeray, he further popularized the
phrase in 1845 when writing inPunch magazine.
He wrote, There is a skeleton inevery house.
And then he went even furtherbecause he's a Victorian author.
He went even further and wrotethe Newcombs, which is a family
(17:55):
name, like someone's familyname, like the Newcombs, memoirs
of a most respectable family.
He wrote that in 1854, 1855.
And in it he says, someparticulars regarding the
Newcomb family, which will showus that they have a skeleton or
two in their closets, as well astheir neighbors.
(18:17):
The phrase caught on during theVictorian era.
I mean, just think of theVictorian era.
They're very into death, veryinto the macabre, and they
always have this veneer and thisshiny, glowy, front-facing look
to them, this aesthetic.
And they're not allowed to showanything underneath that's bad.
(18:39):
So the thought is that thisphrase got really big when
Victorian era came about becausethey were so intrigued by
hiding, because they had to hideeverything so much.
Even when they mourned, they hidso much.
Like you couldn't have emotion,you had to dress certain ways
for certain times.
Yeah, everything is suppressed.
So the thought is that this iswhy it's becoming a phrase so
(19:02):
much now.
We have Bluebeard, which waswritten in 1697, and then it's
not until the mid to late 1800sthat it really becomes a thing.
I just think it had to wait forthe Victorian era to really
catch on.
SPEAKER_03 (19:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
It's used a little more lightly now, though.
It's not so intense, like wayback in the day, skeletons in
the closet meant like exposingsomething major.
You're really toppling things.
You've ruined everything.
Now, today it's just used forbig stuff, little things, all
the things, even referencingcoming out of the closet.
(19:39):
That comes from this skeletonsin the closet.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
So I thought that was interesting to see how
skeletons into the light of day.
SPEAKER_00 (19:45):
Yeah, yep.
Dragon the skeletons into thelight of day.
Yes.
But yeah, I thought that was aninteresting one.
The bluebeard thing wassurprising.
I didn't even think of that.
I don't know the story ofBluebeard very well, but I
thought that was interestingthat it came from most likely a
fairy tale.
Yeah.
This one I found is just theword haunt or to haunt or
(20:07):
haunting haunt.
SPEAKER_02 (20:10):
Um I don't believe it starts necessarily or has its
origins with ghosts.
I would just think it means tooccupy, to be to be to be at, to
occupy, to be present at.
You haunt.
I mean you don't have to be aghost to haunt in the classical
sense of the the word.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
Like Yeah.
Yeah.
You're almost there.
Yes.
Ish.
So the word haunt it can betraced back to the old French
word haunter.
I don't know how to pronounce itin the accent.
Which means to or meant tofrequent or to visit regularly.
(20:51):
Okay.
So repetitively you're goingback and forth back and forth.
Haunt also traces back to oldNorse um hemp, meaning to bring
home.
And over time, the word hauntsort of evolved into something
more intangible, like the hauntof bringing home, the ghost
coming home.
SPEAKER_03 (21:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:11):
But it doesn't really mean just to visit or
frequent.
You have to have this emotionalpull or connection to it.
So like your favorite haunts.
You like them because you'renostalgic about them.
They they bring you goodfeelings, good memories, good
thoughts, or like, oh, that's myold haunt back in the day.
Maybe you don't like that place.
Maybe I don't want to go there.
SPEAKER_02 (21:30):
It's more personal.
Yeah.
Like that's an old site.
Yes.
That's an old spot.
SPEAKER_00 (21:34):
Yeah, one of my haunts.
SPEAKER_02 (21:35):
Yeah.
unknown (21:36):
Over.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
Sort of my hangouts.
Yeah.
Kind of like I guess hangoutsmore is more just like fun.
SPEAKER_00 (21:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
But I mean, today, like it's more modern than
modern equivalent.
SPEAKER_00 (21:48):
Yeah.
Over time, haunt came todescribe more disconcerting or
unsettling.
Like over time, Haunt had moreof a unsettling insidious
quality.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
More like thoughts or memories reoccurring that you
don't want to keep happening.
You're haunted by things.
An old adage is he who has ahaunted heart has a troubled
mind.
And that kind of hints at howbeing plagued by memories can
disturb one's peace, showingthat haunt has like been a long
(22:22):
metaphor for emotional unrest.
Haunted by my thoughts.
No one's thinking of happythoughts when you say I'm
haunted by my thoughts.
SPEAKER_02 (22:29):
Haunted by pleasant memories.
Yes.
You just experience you relishand whatever you experience
pleasant.
Yeah, you're haunted by badmemories.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:37):
I'm threatening you if I'm saying I'll haunt you
once I'm dead.
Like that's a threat.
And then as time went on, it'sthe thought that this lingering
nature of the memories and thethoughts, that's what led to the
word being used in reference toghosts haunting places.
Because the word ghost I didread was first.
So like the ghost is haunting.
(22:58):
So again, going back to theNorse definition of returning
home, repeating it.
And I think those two together,and you know, the thought that
ghosts repeat the same thingover and over again, or they're
caught in the same memory, thesame loop.
That's a theory too aboutghosts.
There's certain energies arecaught in the same loop over and
over again.
(23:18):
So haunt, I think, justnaturally got sucked into that
ghostly world, that ghostlyrealm.
It just seems to match veryeasily.
SPEAKER_02 (23:29):
And then I think from haunt, you eventually get
haint, where that's just theghost or the entity itself
becomes like the noun, like aghost.
Oh yeah.
And then it just becomes it is ahint, which is like a I don't
know the etymology, it's anAmericanism.
SPEAKER_00 (23:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:45):
Um, I believe.
But uh so haint is H A I N T.
SPEAKER_00 (23:51):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (23:51):
Yeah, you just replace the U with an I.
And that's a ghost.
And that's the a ghost or anentity or something.
Right, okay.
Something in the supernatural.
SPEAKER_00 (23:58):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, I don't know.
Maybe I'll have to look up thatone.
Well shoot.
I should have looked that oneup, but I'm I don't have my
phone on me or anything here.
So oh well.
Sorry, listeners, look it upyourself.
SPEAKER_02 (24:10):
Look up yourself, you're on the internet.
SPEAKER_00 (24:11):
Thanks.
All right.
And the next one, it's my lastone.
I just wanted to do a quick onetoday because you're now not
feeling well and I'm gettingover my sickness.
So this one was supposed to benice and quick and light.
SPEAKER_02 (24:25):
It is so far.
I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00 (24:27):
Yes.
The last one is the phrase trickor treat.
SPEAKER_02 (24:33):
Okay.
The actual phrase.
Okay, I don't know the error.
I mean, obviously, I know thewhole Halloween goes back to the
Celts and the Foods.
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
Yeah, I'm not doing a whole Halloween history.
We know I'm not asking what istrick-or-treating.
I'm asking the words trick ortreat.
Oh, because we knowtrick-or-treating is a Halloween
thing.
And you go out on Halloween andyou go house to house and you
yell trick-or-treat, and thenyou get a treat from the person
at the door.
SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
Yeah, I guess we should say this to our
international audience.
SPEAKER_00 (25:03):
It's pretty well known by now, I'm sure, but just
I like to stay within the formatthat I'm in.
I I I needed this for me.
And for anyone who might notknow, but I I needed this for
me.
So yes, the words trick ortreat, why do we say those
words?
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
Um I think I I I'm gonna speculate here.
Um, because I know like Americanthe American version of the
trick-or-treating holiday kindof started in in Kansas in like
the 19 early 1900s.
The one woman kept gettingRight, right.
Yes, kept getting vandalized bylike kids.
SPEAKER_00 (25:37):
Yes, there was a woman, yes.
And she like organized likeevery Halloween her garden would
get turned upside down andvandalized by hoodlums, kids
running amok on Halloween night.
SPEAKER_02 (25:48):
She was like, we gotta give these kids something
to do with it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:49):
She started like a party basically and was like,
give them goodies.
SPEAKER_02 (25:52):
Yeah.
And so I would guess it wouldstart around there with the it
meaning like it's kind of a youknow tongue-in-cheek threat.
Give us a treat, or we'll do atrick to you.
Like we'll we'll play a prank onyou kind of thing.
Like it's kind of a yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:09):
That's what I thought as well, but the phrase
trick or treat didn't come aboutthat early on.
It was a lot later.
Yeah, people were going thekids, what we said is true.
They did the act of trick ortreating.
They did the act of goingthrough, but I don't know what
they would say if they saidanything at all, or if they just
knocked and need to sayanything.
Right.
(26:29):
So before saying trick or treat,people were still going house to
house.
They would ask for treats, food,whatever, and this was during
Sawin or Sowen.
SPEAKER_02 (26:41):
Yeah.
At least you didn't say SamHain.
SPEAKER_00 (26:44):
No, I did not.
SPEAKER_02 (26:45):
Dower.
SPEAKER_00 (26:46):
But yeah.
Um sowen is a festival,festivities during like ancient
Celtic times.
And this is what laid thefoundation for trick-or-treating
for the thing.
And then this woman, yeah, as wetalked about, did her whole
like, let's give them somethingfun to do and have them go house
to house and look for things.
(27:07):
Yeah.
But how did we get the singsonggy trick or treat?
How did people start saying,You're chewing?
SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
Sorry, I have a throat loss and sh and it would
be picked up.
I thought I would hear that.
SPEAKER_00 (27:18):
You chewed, you didn't move your mouth at all.
It's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (27:21):
Well, my mouth is closed.
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
Anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (27:25):
Um well the candy companies.
Is it an advertising gimmick?
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
No, no, no.
I'll tell you.
You're never gonna guess this.
Let me tell you, okay.
Okay.
It started with souling.
S-O-U-L-I-N-G.
Okay.
So this became a thing inmedieval Europe.
Is it's lasted longer, but thisis the beginning of it.
People would walk door to doorand they would offer prayers for
(27:52):
people's souls that were stuckin purgatory.
Oh.
And in return, the dead'srelatives, the people in the
house, would give these prayersor these soulers, so I don't
know if they're called that, butI'm calling them that.
Give these soulers soul cakes orgoodies treats, but fun to call
everything a soul cake.
(28:13):
This was a Catholic practicedone on All Souls Day, which is
November 2nd of every year.
And this was pretty common eveninto the 1800s to do something
like this.
So that's how they think trickor treat started to come about,
mixed with adults saying, Hey,have a treat instead of doing
(28:34):
tricks.
Like it is kind of a threat.
Yeah.
It is, like it truly is.
But I still couldn't figure outwhy the words trick-or-treat
were a thing.
Because I was like, why are welike, how did we get there?
And I couldn't really find agood answer for it.
It is something that just kindof happened.
But like we said earlier, it'san ultimatum for the children
who again are typically runningaround, ruining people's
(28:56):
gardens, ruining people'shouses, like just vandalizing
everything.
SPEAKER_02 (29:00):
Halloween in like 19 teens was like it was rough.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, it was really, reallyrough.
SPEAKER_02 (29:04):
It was bad, apparently.
But it was bad because weorganized a whole holiday to
stop teen ruffians.
SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
Yes.
And I still couldn't findexactly why trick-or-treat.
I can only think it was a quickphrase to say mixed with the
souling, mixed with thedoor-to-door, all these things
blending together over time.
Now, in the early 20th century,so we're looking at 1928 here,
the first American newspaperthat printed the phrase was a
(29:36):
Michigan newspaper.
SPEAKER_03 (29:37):
Ooh.
SPEAKER_00 (29:38):
And well, the newspaper was the Bay City
Times.
No way.
November 1st, 1928, baby.
Wait a minute.
SPEAKER_02 (29:47):
This is the first recorded use in American.
SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
It was first used in like other in Canada.
I think I don't know if theywere the very first ones, but
they might have been the secondor first ones.
No, I've got the newspaper.
Article right up here.
I'm gonna read straight from theBay City Times 1928, November
1st, article.
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
Is there a writer credited?
Not that I would I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (30:11):
I didn't look that hard, but I maybe at the
beginning of the paper, but Ionly have this one clip, so I
don't know.
All right.
So I'm reading this, I'm readingthis little article from a 1928
Bay City.
SPEAKER_02 (30:22):
97 years ago.
SPEAKER_00 (30:23):
So for anyone who's just catch filling in right now
and doesn't know us from otherepisodes, I guess.
This is Cole's job.
This is who he works for rightnow.
unknown (30:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:33):
Like this is wild for us.
And I did not even intend tofigure this out or find this.
SPEAKER_02 (30:39):
I'm gonna have an interesting factoid to tell my
coworkers tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
I already told everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (30:44):
While you were at court.
Sorry.
Oh shit.
Yep, they already know.
One coworker might do an articleon it.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
Goddamn Joey.
SPEAKER_00 (30:51):
Yeah.
So anyway, the article is titledTricks or Treats.
Question mark.
So it's plural.
Okay.
Tricks or treats.
Question mark.
What is this?
And here we go.
Quoting.
The black hand gang itself,that's capitalized.
(31:13):
So there must have been a blackhand gang in Bay City.
SPEAKER_02 (31:16):
Maybe there's I want to figure it out.
Yeah, I guess so.
SPEAKER_00 (31:21):
So the black hand gang itself would envy the
activities of some of thechildren of Bay City if it could
see them in the midst of theirpractice of the gentle art of
blackmail.
But like duck shooting,blackmail is a seasonable sport.
And that season was closed lastnight after about six weeks
(31:43):
during which trade was plied forfur with fervor.
So this is November 1st, the dayafter Halloween.
So season is closed.
I don't know what's six weeks,what they were doing for six
weeks, but that seems like along-September.
There's six weeks of likeharvest.
Yeah.
Maybe that's what he means, likeharvest season.
Anyway.
Farming village.
(32:04):
Um he goes on to say in fact,regular beats were developed by
the children, and the peacefulcitizens lived in terror of the
time each evening when theyshould be summoned to their
front doors to hear the fatalultimatum tricks or treats
uttered in a merciless tone bysome small child who clutched in
(32:26):
one grubby fist a small chunk ofI don't know what this word is,
a small chunk of scap capable ofeliminating the transparency
from any number of windows.
Oh, oh, it's cut out soap.
Okay, so he's throwing soap toeliminate the transparency from
any number of windows.
Y'all, he's talking aboutbreaking windows with a soap
(32:47):
bar.
This is beautifully written.
Oh, the none too subtle are ofblackmail.
And woe betide any housekeeperwho had not the proper supply of
apples, cookies, candy, orpeanuts on hand to avert the
disaster.
Though they were stale to thecrumbling point, yet they served
(33:07):
to assuage the unbelievableappetites of the Halloweeners.
But that is all over now, andall the unfortunates have is
bitter memories, and all theHalloweeners have is stomach
aches.
SPEAKER_02 (33:21):
That's so awesome.
I need to find that.
SPEAKER_00 (33:25):
Joey already found it.
SPEAKER_02 (33:27):
Alright, I need to like ask like we'll talk later
how you found this.
Is this like on Wikipedia?
Like how like how do you findlike the I have my sources, I'll
show you.
SPEAKER_00 (33:37):
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:37):
Like how you confirm like this was like the first
American usage of it in print.
I want to like that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (33:43):
I found that in two sources.
Oh, okay.
That's good.
I mean, it's two sources that Ifound it as being the first.
So I I'm pretty sure it is.
Okay.
I was like, I don't if you needmore than two, then you can fuck
off.
Now, by the 1940s and 50s, thephrase was becoming more
popular.
The peanuts comics were nowusing it.
Charlie Brown said it in one ofthe comic strips in 1951.
(34:06):
Okay.
And then in 1952, Disneyproduced a cartoon called Trick
or Treat featuring Donald Duckand his nephews, Huey, Dewey,
and Louie.
And the rest is history.
That's when it really started tobecome a thing.
So 40s and 50s is when we'rereally saying trick or treat.
But trick or treating washappening well before that.
Yeah.
But the phrase trick or treat.
SPEAKER_02 (34:28):
It's also when TVs are first starting to get into.
I mean, it's the post-World WarII.
SPEAKER_00 (34:32):
Oh, that's true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:33):
The boomer era.
TVs are getting in advertising.
We're more connected than we'veever been.
SPEAKER_00 (34:39):
That's true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:40):
Like 50s culture.
SPEAKER_00 (34:42):
Yeah.
Yep.
I just want to do a quick funone there.
Um, I hope everyone has a funstart to their October and it's
not too shitty.
Also, we have the government wasshut down.
Sorry.
That was I didn't mean to make ajoke.
I'm sorry.
Anyway.
Merch.
SPEAKER_02 (34:59):
We got merch.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
We have merch now.
Happy October.
Yes, we do have merch though,for real.
Um, I made a merch website.
It's pretty cool, and I'veordered some of the clothes for
myself, and I'm wearing, I'mlike touching myself.
That sounds weird if you can'tsee me.
I'm touching my shoulders and myarms because the sweater I'm
wearing is actually verycomfortable.
I wasn't sure what I wasgetting, and I I made a good
(35:22):
choice, you guys.
I'm proud of myself.
So check out our merch.
It is borrowedbonespodcast.com,or you can follow us on
Instagram at borrowedbonespodcast, and the link to
the merch is in my bio.
SPEAKER_02 (35:35):
Yeah, it's like shirts and mugs, sweaters, mugs,
phone cases, hats, all the allthe normal bags, yeah.
Yeah, merch.
SPEAKER_00 (35:44):
Whips, chains, whistles, yo yos.
Whistles, yo yo.
SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
If anyone gets that reference, you're awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
Yeah, yeah.
That's all, yeah.
Good deep cut.
But yeah, that's it.
So thank you for listening.
Happy October, and hopefullyboth of us are fully better in
the next recording.
Yeah.
Bye.
SPEAKER_01 (36:03):
Bye.
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