November 20, 2025 • 57 mins
A colony vanishes, a single word carved in wood, and a baby named Virginia Dare. Did the Roanoke colony assimilate, starve, or flee the storm?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
Hello everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (00:15):
Hello.
SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
I'm Sarah.
SPEAKER_03 (00:17):
I'm Cole.
SPEAKER_00 (00:18):
You're listening to Borrowed Bones, a podcast about
fucked up, interesting, andtoxic families.
SPEAKER_01 (00:25):
Today, who are we talking about?
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
We are talking about the almost first English family
in America.
SPEAKER_02 (00:36):
Oh, okay.
The first of the imperialists.
SPEAKER_00 (00:40):
They tried to be, yes.
The Dare family.
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
Uh-huh.
Okay.
Fitting name.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
Yeah.
It is.
They're daring, I suppose, butyes.
The Dare family.
And we are starting around 1540sEngland.
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
So a time to have been alive.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
Yes.
Somewhere in the 1540s, JohnWhite was born.
He's the start of everythinghere.
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
A guy named John White is probably the start of
yeah, imperialists best fitting.
I know.
These are the times that maybewe think maybe there is a God,
like as a script writer, becausewhen things are just too on the
nose.
Johnny White man came to Americaand pissed on everything.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
Well, maybe it's so obvious to us today because the
people with these names are theones that did it.
SPEAKER_02 (01:37):
Milktoast trendsetters.
Milktoast.
Yeah, boring, dull.
Like John White is about themost boring name you can have,
right?
John Smith and John White.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
John Smith did a lot around this time, too.
SPEAKER_02 (01:50):
Yeah.
Like the two most boring namesto have.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Yes.
So going back to John White witha at the beginning.
Um, we don't really knowanything about his early life.
It's 1540s was when he he wasborn.
SPEAKER_02 (02:05):
No one cared unless you're nobility.
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Right.
And then we're fast forwardingto 1566.
John White is now married and hehas two children.
He has a son and a daughter,Thomas and Eleanor.
Thomas passed away at a youngage, but Eleanor survived to
adulthood.
John White is first mentioned inhistorical record in 1577.
(02:30):
So now we're jumping about 10more years ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
All right.
What context does he appear?
SPEAKER_00 (02:36):
He made detailed paintings of Greenland and
Baffin Island.
Oh.
John was an artist and hespecialized in watercolors.
SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
Mm-hmm.
He was doing the paintings inGreenland and Baffin Island
because he was asked to go on anexpedition with an English
captain and privateer.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Okay.
So he's like contracted as ascientific exploration or
geographic explorer.
Exploratory mission.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
Now, John is next seen on record in the 1580s.
He was part of Sir WalterRaleigh's colonization attempts
in the 1580s.
Oh.
He was hired to paint the NewWorld.
A whole new world.
New to the whites.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (03:22):
It's new to us.
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (03:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:28):
With 600 men and seven ships, they set off on,
they set off sail.
They set off to sail.
SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
They set sail.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
They set sail.
It's April of 1585.
Their goal was to establish amilitary colony as well as a
privateering base.
They wanted to name it the Cityof Raleigh.
SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
Okay.
So North Carolina is where theyend up.
North Carolina, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
They also brought along um two Algonquin
translators, Manteo and Wanches.
SPEAKER_02 (04:03):
Okay.
Wait, they brought them withthem from Europe.
Like they were already in Europefrom a previous or did they pick
them up?
Did they like arrive in northernthe northeast coast, like main
area, pick up a couple ofAlgonquins, and then keep going?
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
At some point before this, there have been travelers,
you know, back and forth, butthis is their first attempt to
make a colony.
Okay.
And so at some point, explorerswent to our version of the New
World.
SPEAKER_04 (04:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
And I don't know the whole history here, so I am very
vague on this.
But yes, they got them before.
And these Algonquin translatorswere they were friendly to them.
They they helped each other andthey were like, okay, you'll
come back with us to help settlethis colony.
SPEAKER_03 (04:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:47):
Yes.
So yes, they're starting inEngland.
While sailing across theAtlantic, a storm separated the
fleet of ships.
When the fleet finally arrived,the ships were damaged, supplies
was ruined, and they were reallyalready off to not a good start.
SPEAKER_02 (05:05):
They were already starting with a handicap.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
Yes.
So with the supplies ruined, andthe 600 men immediately know
that we can't start off thisway.
We need to turn around right nowand get more.
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
Get more supplies.
So they just have they turnedtheir ships around because they
knew they couldn't make it allthe way.
SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
Well, a few of the higher-ups decided we can do
this because we'll use thenatives, we'll be able to
communicate with them, they canhelp us with food and get us
through.
We have enough to ration it.
They could make it, but barely.
SPEAKER_03 (05:33):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
And John White didn't really care at this point
because he was there to draw andhe doesn't have a voice in the
He doesn't really care.
He's like, whatever, I'm here todo my thing.
He began creating visualrepresentations of the people,
plants, and animals.
This would give the Europeanstheir first glimpse of what life
was like in America.
(05:54):
But things were only gettingworse for them.
The Native Americans in thearea, the Sekatan and the
Croatoan, both were helpful andtraded food at first, like they
were hoping, but then therelations soured, especially
between the colonists and thesecatans.
SPEAKER_03 (06:12):
Good.
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.
I heard two different ways ofpronunciation, and this was one
of them.
So I'm I'm really not sure,honestly, how to pronounce it of
the two ways, but this is one ofthem.
So I'm going with thispronunciation of it.
Eventually, after conflictbetween the tribes, well,
between the Sekatansspecifically and the colonists,
it got pretty violent.
(06:33):
There were some killings oneither side.
I did see some stories, and I'mnot sure exactly what happened
because they were all kind ofdifferent, but I saw one story
that the colonists wouldoverreact quite a bit.
Like one colonist was founddead, murdered by the Native
Americans, and they in turn likeburned down their whole, you
(06:53):
know, village.
So things like that werehappening at this time, and it
was not good.
So even though the Croatoantribe was still friendly with
them because Manteo was aCroatowan and he stayed loyal
with the English while he wasthere, they still stopped
providing food.
(07:14):
I think they were caught in themiddle at this time, kind of
like, uh, we're out of stand,like we're Switzerland, you
know, we're not gonna doanything.
So the colonists were no longergetting help.
And again, the limited supplies.
Their backup wasn't backing themup.
SPEAKER_02 (07:28):
They weren't invited there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (07:29):
So screw them.
SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
Mm-hmm.
So, because of this, they didfinally have to leave.
John was a part of the journeyback to England.
They left in August of 1585 toget more people and supplies.
Fifte men were left at thecolony, though, just to maintain
their claim of it.
Like we're here.
SPEAKER_03 (07:50):
Just 15.
Just 15.
SPEAKER_00 (07:52):
By that time, there was a standoff, like standstill.
No one was messing with anyoneanymore.
It was pretty much done.
unknown (07:57):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (07:58):
So they thought.
Upon arriving in England, Johnwas tasked with recruiting
members to the new colony.
And he was going to be thegovernor of the Virginia colony.
So they have this first militarycolony there that didn't really
go so well, but they're hopefulthat the 15 men will continue to
(08:20):
build and grow and maybe fixrelations with the native
people.
This is the plan.
John is now bringing civilians.
He has 117 people that agree togo on the voyage.
And among them was his daughter,Eleanor, and her husband,
(08:41):
Ananias Dare.
SPEAKER_02 (08:43):
Ananias Dare.
SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
Mm-hmm.
Isn't that a fun name?
SPEAKER_02 (08:46):
Sounds like a Star Wars name.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
It does, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
Mastodair.
SPEAKER_00 (08:52):
And I don't know where John's wife is anymore.
She's not talked about it all.
SPEAKER_02 (08:55):
So she was a woman.
Yeah.
That's not important as history.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
Yep, she's done.
So the plan was to settle in theChesapeake Bay, about 90 miles
north of Roanoke Island.
That's their goal, is to get upthere.
SPEAKER_03 (09:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
The colonists departed England in April of
1587, arriving on the coast ofRoanoke Island on July 22nd,
1587.
About two-month voyage.
SPEAKER_03 (09:20):
Lovely.
SPEAKER_00 (09:21):
Mm-hmm.
John White and a few other menwent ashore before the rest of
everyone to try and find the 15men left behind and see what's
up.
And they found no trace of thesemen.
No bodies, no bones, nothingburied, nothing.
SPEAKER_02 (09:38):
Is the settlement still there?
Just abandoned.
SPEAKER_00 (09:41):
It was abandoned.
It was broken, you know, uh tornup.
They found where it was anyway.
unknown (09:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
Yep.
And they decided, okay, well,they're not here.
Maybe they moved up north ormaybe they went somewhere.
They got attacked and they leftand went somewhere.
John goes back to the ship andhe asks the ship pilot to take
them north to Chesapeake Bay, 90miles north.
And the pilot of a ship issomeone who's like an
experienced guide of that landand area.
(10:10):
And the pilot said, no, we'renot going any further north.
It's too late into the seasonand it's going to be too cold.
SPEAKER_01 (10:16):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
Mm-hmm.
Because they wanted to likeplant crops and everything and
get things rolling.
So they had to set up on RoanokeIsland.
The colonists repaired thebuildings that were there.
And just a few days later, therewas a colonist that was killed
by members of the Roanoke tribe.
unknown (10:36):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
Okay.
So there's three tribes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
This is now another tribe entered in.
Yes.
Yes.
Now we're focusing on theRoanoke.
SPEAKER_03 (10:46):
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
John White led the way for colonists to retaliate,
but they accidentally attackedthe Croatoan tribe instead of
the Roanoke tribe.
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
Surprised that these white people didn't recognize
the distinctions in minoritygroups.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
Right.
So tensions were mounting yetagain.
The white colonists were ruiningthese relationships.
The colonists insisted that Johngo back to England for more
supplies and help.
We've been here before, guys.
We've been here before.
unknown (11:18):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
I still wonder that Europeans ever got a foothold on
this continent.
SPEAKER_00 (11:23):
I don't understand it.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Einstein's 2020, but I think if the native tribes had
been unified in opposition tous, I mean, hence why the
Vikings were repelled 400 yearsbeforehand and just gave up on
this continent.
SPEAKER_00 (11:38):
Oh, were they fought off?
SPEAKER_02 (11:40):
There's different theory.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
One of the I just figure the Vikings weren't the
way the English were.
And they're like, no, there'sland there, we mapped it, we
know it's there.
Bye.
SPEAKER_02 (11:48):
I've read different theories, and one of them is
that some conflict did arisebetween the Vikings and the
further northeastern tribes thatmade Vikings be like, you know
what, it's not worth the effort.
SPEAKER_03 (12:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:00):
And one of the reasons is that I'm gonna do an
tangent here for and again.
This is can't cite it, so lookit up.
Feel free to check my math onthis.
SPEAKER_00 (12:09):
It's okay to be corrected.
SPEAKER_02 (12:10):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
But one of the more uh esoterictheories is that in the they
would you know when the Vikingsand the native tribes initially
had contact, they were fairlyfriendly, you know, they
exchanged some goods, Vikingsleft for a couple years, came
back, and they were attacked.
They were like shot at witharrows and lances before they
could like make landfall.
(12:30):
They're like, all right, well,what happened, but while we were
gone, they soured on us.
So the theory is that becausecheese and dairy was a huge part
of the Vikings diet, they gavesome to the natives who were not
used to it, they were lactoseintolerant, they perceived it as
being poisoned.
And when they came back, they'relike, fuck these Vikings, fuck
(12:51):
these Norse, and they're they'retrying to kill us.
Wow.
And to that, they're like, weweren't trying to kill them, we
just I mean, obviously, they hadno idea that different diets in
different parts of the worldwould react differently.
SPEAKER_00 (13:01):
Wow, yeah, that is interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (13:03):
It's a speculative one, but well, learning is
interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
Learning about this, I don't understand why the
English tried so hard tocolonize this.
I don't get it because therewere so many failed attempts.
Like there really were, and Ithink we just kept coming.
Yeah, it's like ants beingmurdered by ants.
Yeah.
Well, so John had to go back toEngland for more supplies and
(13:29):
help.
However, he was reluctant to doso because his daughter,
Eleanor, just had a baby girlnamed Virginia Dare.
Born August 18th of 1587.
And we know this because she wasthe second person baptized in
America.
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
Who's the first?
SPEAKER_00 (13:48):
Uh, some other person, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (13:49):
But she was the first born.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
Okay, so like an adult was baptized.
I think so, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
It was.
I think it was a NativeAmerican.
Oh, okay, gotcha.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:58):
Yeah, it makes sense.
Yeah.
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
Um, but she was so we have like a record of her,
and she was named after the newcolony, Virginia.
How hopeful they are.
It's like a jinx.
SPEAKER_02 (14:09):
Yeah.
Hopefully get you killed.
SPEAKER_00 (14:11):
Well, I and the thing is, is they landed July
22nd.
Virginia gave, or Virginia wasborn August 18th.
SPEAKER_03 (14:19):
Oh, so she was pregnant.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
Eleanor was like eight, seven months pregnant
because it took two months of ajourney.
Like, holy shit.
SPEAKER_02 (14:27):
Must have been some rough morning sickness with when
I was I mean, who knows?
SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
Oh my god, I'm surprised she didn't have the
baby on the boat.
So that's pretty amazing.
Um, but yes, so John did notreally want to leave because his
granddaughter was just born.
She was only nine days old whenJohn left for England.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
Gotta do what you gotta do.
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
Mm-hmm.
So now let's talk a little bitabout Ananias and Eleanor.
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:53):
They probably married in 1583.
We don't know for sure.
Somewhere in the early 1580s.
Ananias was a tiler and abricklayer.
SPEAKER_02 (15:03):
A Tyler?
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Like tiles?
Oh, okay.
I don't know how to say thatwithout the accent.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
I was thinking like the name Tyler.
Like, what does that mean?
Yeah.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
Tyler?
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
Yes.
He laid tiles.
Yes.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
And a bricklayer.
SPEAKER_02 (15:17):
A bricklayer, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
He belonged to a guild in England.
This was the bricklayer's guild.
SPEAKER_03 (15:23):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
Which was a higher up thing in England.
This offers evidence that he'sof a higher social status.
SPEAKER_02 (15:30):
Probably like the early Masonic uh guilds.
The Freemasons today.
It all started with what wasessentially like an early labor
union of literal stonemasons.
SPEAKER_00 (15:42):
Oh, nice.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (15:43):
They called it a guild.
SPEAKER_00 (15:44):
That's the Stonemasons Guild, the
bricklayers guild.
SPEAKER_02 (15:47):
And then it eventually just evolved to you
know Freemasonry being its ownfraternal entity, close society,
but it started as a literal likelabor union, what we call today.
SPEAKER_00 (15:57):
Interesting.
Okay, so yes.
SPEAKER_02 (15:58):
So that's like all these guilds were starting.
unknown (16:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
Well, he was a part of bargaining in the early days.
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
Yes.
Ananias was also one of the nineassistants that were granted a
coat of arms when sent toRoanoke Island.
Obviously, he went to Roanokewith his wife, Eleanor.
We don't really know much aboutEleanor other than she's the
woman of all of this.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
Woman in history.
SPEAKER_00 (16:22):
I don't know anything else.
SPEAKER_02 (16:23):
Unless you're Cleopatra or Joan of Arc or
something.
SPEAKER_00 (16:28):
Ananias was most likely given a leadership role
for the new colony.
His name did fall third on alist of the colonists for
Roanoke, which, given Englishtradition, they do put things in
order of importance.
This was interesting though.
Ananias left a son back inEngland.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(16:48):
And he was like legitimate, Iguess, but he wasn't Eleanor's
son, most likely.
I guess we don't knowdefinitively, but Eleanor, they
didn't, he didn't come withthem.
So we know that his son, John,existed because the son, John,
was able to acquire Ananiasis'sproperty after not hearing or
(17:10):
seeing him for seven years.
That was the time frame.
And he was granted his property.
So it's a pretty strong argumentof that's his son, you know?
The English government felt likeit was.
So yes, together, Ananias andthe very pregnant Eleanor and
her father, John White, were offto the new world.
(17:32):
Now we're up to speed.
John White, as we know, had toleave to get more supplies.
As he's on his way back toEngland, his ship runs into very
rough waters, bad storms,damaging his ship severely.
Like he barely made it back.
He does land in Europe inOctober of 1587.
(17:53):
John quickly finds and meetswith Sir Walter Raleigh, and he
wants to also meet with QueenElizabeth because he's like,
hey, I need to get another shipto go back to Roanoke with
supplies and more men.
We need to go back right now.
But at this time, tensions wererising between England and Spain
(18:14):
and they finally reached abreaking point.
The Spanish Armada was gatheringto attack, and England had no
navy at this time.
Or they had a small one orsomething.
I don't know exactly.
I don't know 1500s England thatwell.
But Queen Elizabeth said allships need to be used to defend
England right now.
(18:34):
All of them.
So, John, you're not getting aship.
Yeah.
Sorry, you're stuck.
Who cares about Roanoke rightnow?
We're worried about MamaEngland, the motherland.
It wouldn't be until 1590 thathe would find a way back to
Roanoke.
SPEAKER_02 (18:49):
Three years.
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
Three years.
John found passage on aprivateering ship.
They agreed for him to tagalong.
And on March 20th of 1590, theyleft.
They made stops along the way,so it took a little while for
them to get back or get toRoanoke.
(20:43):
But they finally dropped Johnoff on Roanoke Island on August
18th of 1590, which ironicallyis exactly Virginia's third
birthday.
SPEAKER_01 (20:56):
Maybe if she's alive.
It would have been.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
Yeah.
When John went ashore to see hisfamily and the colonists, he
found what looked like a fortkind of made up of the street.
SPEAKER_02 (21:08):
He's saying deja vu of yes.
Like this guy keeps losing hispeople.
unknown (21:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
There was a fence of wood, iron forming around,
making like an enclosure lookinglike a fort.
There were houses missing.
They weren't really missingpeople.
They literally tore wood fromthe houses to make this fort.
SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
Okay.
So they're scavenging theiryeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:31):
Yep.
There were no people found,nothing.
There weren't, again, no bones,no bodies, nothing buried, no
evidence of really what happenedother than this fort.
But there were a couple clues.
There were the letters C R Ocarved into a tree.
And then the word Croatoancarved into a post that was a
(21:56):
part of the fort.
So John thought that this meantthe colonists relocated to the
island of Croatoan, which ismodern day Hatteras?
I don't know.
I didn't know that.
I've never heard of thatactually.
And it's in our country.
SPEAKER_02 (22:13):
There's a lot of islands already up and down the
East Coast that's that oneisland.
I think it's off the coast ofVirginia.
It's super isolated, and likethere's still British accents by
the natives.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Flick it up.
I read about it recently, like afew years ago.
Like there's this one isolated,like you that still has the
trace of an English accentbecause they're so they've been
(22:33):
so isolated, and it's like thelast trace of an English accent
in continental US.
SPEAKER_00 (22:39):
I wonder if it's like old English though.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (22:42):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean it's evolved, sure.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
But like they they stopped learning English by old
English time.
They're not old English, Iguess, but like kind of
middle-ish English.
Weird.
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
I mean, it's the accent, not necessarily the dot,
but the language.
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Well, yeah, they have internet and they're not
like isolated.
They have TVs.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Yeah, the vocabulary is probably modern and oh my
god.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
The edibles kicking in.
They still speak like e old.
No.
SPEAKER_02 (23:12):
That's really where my head went.
So who they think is the king?
I I don't think it's till 1650.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
But how did oh anyway, whatever.
We need to look into that.
I don't understand it.
I don't want to look it upbecause I want it to be true.
Yeah.
So I'm not looking it up.
I want this in my life.
There's an old English islandoff of North Carolina or
Virginia.
Somewhere on that.
Yeah.
It's in the speak old English.
We should go.
Anyway.
(23:41):
So John figures they allrelocated to be with the
Croatoan tribe because Manteowas still around and he was
still loyal to the Englishthrough all of these conflicts.
SPEAKER_02 (23:54):
As far as we know.
There's always like these gapsin the historical record that
they take for granted.
I'm like, but even as documentedas it is, there's still like
two-year gaps sometimes.
And like you don't know.
Mateo could have been walkingunder a tree in a branch fell
and killed him, and we just, youknow, life still happens.
It's like, oh well, he was here.
Well, he was here when you lefttwo years ago.
Right.
(24:14):
He could have scratched his armand gotten an infection and died
of sepsis three days later.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
Like it could have been anything.
Yeah.
You have no idea.
Right.
Well, here's the story.
John is thinking because we dohave the words Croatoan.
So he's taking that andassuming, inferring that Manteo
took them to his tribe and hispeople.
The other Native American thatcame with them, Wanches, he
(24:44):
through all the conflicts doesturn on the English and sides
with the Native Americans.
Good for him.
So that's the split there.
Keep that in your back pocket.
SPEAKER_04 (24:51):
Good for him.
unknown (24:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
I know I kind of felt that way too.
I was like, get it.
So John wanted to go take theship up to Crowatone Island.
He's like, well, obviously,let's go check it out.
Yeah.
However, there was a hurricanecoming and the ship, they still
tried to go, and the ship wasblown way off course.
(25:13):
And according to this, um, thenext time they saw land, they
were off the coast of Spain.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
A hurricane blew them across the Atlantic Ocean.
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
Yep.
Sure.
Why not?
SPEAKER_02 (25:25):
Maybe they were pushing to the Bermuda Triangle
and a gap, a lacuna inspace-time opened and
transported them.
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
I saw multiple um sites that said this, and then I
saw one that said maybe they gotblown to the Caribbean islands,
but either way, there was Ithink there was some type of a
storm that blew them off course.
SPEAKER_02 (25:46):
Maybe they meant like Spanish-controlled
Caribbean islands, like notmainland actually, like Iberian
Peninsula of Spain, but maybelike some Spanish plantations
and uh you know, sugarplantations or whatever.
If those were I mean, I don'tknow exactly what was going on
at the same time, what Spain'sinterests were in North America
at that time, but they were inFlorida.
(26:09):
So maybe they just got pushed toSpain.
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
Spanish territory, yeah.
I don't know.
Either way, they got blown offcourse.
I like to think like a LooneyTune style of like blowing all
the way to Spain.
SPEAKER_02 (26:24):
Wound up in Alaska.
What?
unknown (26:25):
Yeah, how?
SPEAKER_00 (26:26):
What?
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
It picked you up and took you over the North American
continent.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
But either way, the ship does arrive back in England
in October of 1590.
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Very little is known about John White after his
return to England.
SPEAKER_02 (26:41):
Oh, so they never actually went to Croatunno
Island?
So they just Does it?
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
Yeah, they never actually went to the island to
look.
SPEAKER_02 (26:47):
So he wasn't that concerned about his family.
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
We we know very little about John White after
his return to England.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
I tried, but fuck it, the wind was blowing too
hard.
So I just decided screw it, I'mgoing all the way back to
England.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
Well, we do know that he moved to Ireland and
passed away in as early as 1593or lasted until 1606.
But that's it.
Okay.
So he ends up in Ireland, andthat's where he settles and ends
his life.
He didn't end his own life, butwhatever.
(27:20):
You know what I mean?
John did, though, write ajournal, and he also wrote a
letter, and he sent the letterand journal to a man named
Richard, who would then laterpublish them.
In John's journal, he writesabout the lost colony, and he
mentions that between him andthe colonists there was a secret
token agreed upon.
(27:42):
It was said between them that ifthey left, they were to carve
into a post, tree, door,anything indicating where they
are.
Also, if they were in distress,he told the colonists to carve
over the letters a cross.
Like a religious cross in acertain form.
It was like a certain way.
(28:05):
And he says in his journal thathe did not find any signs of
distress.
There were no crosses on top ofthose letters.
SPEAKER_02 (28:12):
Always possible someone was killed before that
could be done.
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
Exactly.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
You don't always get to sound the alarm when you're
killed.
SPEAKER_00 (28:18):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (28:19):
He Especially carving, like I know the most
like could and not obviouslydidn't have like loose leaf
paper and all that, but likeyou'd think there'd be more
practical ways to leave a notethan spending however long it
takes to carve into Well, theyprobably wanted a more of a
permanent way to keep a note,but I I don't imagine being
under attack and chiseling andcarving.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
And the way it said is that the bark of the tree was
stripped first.
So they they cleared the theycleared an empty space on the
tree or on the post, and thenthey carved into it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:53):
And the whole the other tree had CRO right.
Did like they start and then belike, oh, I fucked up, I
misspelled.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
I was wondering the same thing.
I don't know.
We don't know.
We don't know.
So even like kind of like whatwe're surmising, even though
there was no cross over theletters, he was still concerned
with how the houses were takendown, how the fort was created,
and everything was prettyovergrown as well.
So he knew it had been a while.
There was a little bit ofsupplies that was left.
(29:22):
The maps, oh, John White alsodid mapping for the area, too.
I don't know what thatprofession is.
Calligraphy.
SPEAKER_02 (29:31):
Excuse me, uh, cartographer.
Cartographer.
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (29:34):
Yeah, yeah.
I knew it started with the C.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
But yes, so some of the maps that he drew up were
spoiled by the rain, and um, healso found that he had armor
that he left there that was nowrusted through.
SPEAKER_03 (29:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (29:48):
So it's been a little while since anyone's been
at this.
SPEAKER_02 (29:52):
It's been exposed to the elements for a few seasons.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
So what happened?
That's what John White writes inhis journal.
He doesn't really go on to Hedoesn't give the conclusions.
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
He's just This is what I saw.
This is what I saw.
He is what you can.
SPEAKER_00 (31:15):
His his I his thought is that they went to the
island.
He he does lean that way.
I don't know how much hebelieves it.
You know, that's what I wouldbelieve if I were him.
SPEAKER_02 (31:26):
The new structure that he found there was made for
a defensive like which implies asiege, even though there's no
bodies found.
But again, if it happened years,I mean, if it happened a year
before he got there, bodiescould have been disposed of.
I mean, who knows?
SPEAKER_00 (31:45):
Who knows?
They could have just been thrownin the water.
Yeah.
Who knows?
This is all so long ago.
I have no idea.
However, there are a fewtheories and legends and myths
surrounding this.
So this is the fun part.
Local legend says that thecolonists survived and they
lived with the Croatoans.
Assimilating, intermarrying.
(32:07):
People have said that early onother colonists would see little
blonde hair Native Americans orlike a Native American with blue
eyes.
And that was evidence to themthat oh, they they they went,
they did it.
SPEAKER_03 (32:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
But who knows?
Because it it wouldn't take verylong for the blonde hair and
blue eyes to be out of that ifthe majority of people have
brown hair and brown eyes.
Like so it would take a couplegenerations, that's about it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:33):
But there's only like what 20, 25 individuals.
I don't know how many with thatcompared to however many
thousands of like it's gonna getfiltered out pretty quickly for
the most part.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
So legend has it that some people have seen
Native Americans with blondehair, blue eyes.
Who knows?
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
It's also worth considering that European
folklore at this time had a longstanding myth of like a white.
tribe out there.
So like there was often accountsof blonde-haired, blue-eyed
Native American tribes out therethat you know obviously wasn't
true, but there was this myth ofthe time.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
Oh.
Did the myth you think happenafter the lost colony?
SPEAKER_02 (33:17):
Probably.
I mean, because this is theearliest.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
This does grow quite a bit.
SPEAKER_02 (33:22):
And as as westward expansion, you know, kept going,
then you know the goalposts keptgetting moved.
The mythical white tribe is nowfurther west and west.
It's always you know the nexttribe.
SPEAKER_00 (33:34):
The next one you'll find.
Right.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:36):
But that was always an inherent wishful thinking of
our racism.
You know we'll find them justlike us.
Yeah kind of bullshit.
It verifies it validates whatwe're doing.
Right.
Not to get into that but yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:50):
So of course people were intrigued by this as we're
pointing out right now the whitetribe and a part of this
intrigue really focused andcentered on the firstborn child
Virginia Dare.
They they want her to have livedand survived and grown with the
Croaton people.
SPEAKER_02 (34:10):
It's a potent symbol of American mythmaking.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
The firstborn European yeah and as time passes
the legend would grow andVirginia Dare would become the
subject of American mythology.
Mm-hmm her story is that notlong after John White's
departure, Juan Cheese, thatother Native American
(34:36):
translator, he launched anattack against the colonists.
He was just waiting.
SPEAKER_03 (34:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:43):
And among the few survivors were Ananias, Eleanor,
and Virginia Dare.
Manteo would go on to rescue theDare family and take them to his
people on Crowtown Island.
SPEAKER_02 (34:57):
This is all just myths all myths.
There's no citation for thisthere's no kind of evidence.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
No evidence.
This is all from here on out ofthe folklore this is the
folklore.
Yes.
According to legend Virginia'sparents died soon after this and
Manteo and his people cared forVirginia.
They would call her Winona.
SPEAKER_02 (35:19):
Ah Winona Judd this is Winona Judd's origin story.
From the Juds country singernever mind.
SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
I don't cut that no it is said that Manteo taught
her the ways of the forest andthe land as she grew into
womanhood the ace of the ways ofthe force oh the ways of the
force yes this is getting alittle too much into the magical
yeah bullshit.
So now we're going to take a bigleap into the future we have
(35:48):
American author Sally SouthallCotton.
SPEAKER_01 (35:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:54):
What you this is 1901 and she's from the Virginia
area.
I don't I forgot exactly wherebut she's from the area Roanoke
area.
Chesapeake area North Carolinayou know all there.
And she writes a book lengthpoem about Virginia dare in
1901.
It's titled The White Doe.
(36:17):
In this story there were manyNative Americans that competed
for Winona or Virginia Winonachose a very handsome man named
Okisco and there was another manthat was also wanting her love
but he was rejected and he was awitch doctor.
He was very mad about beingrejected he didn't like it so he
(36:40):
cast a spell on Winona turningher into a snow white doe.
Over the years the white doe wassaid to be seen gracefully
moving about the landscape ofthe island.
Sometimes the doe would be seenlooking out at the sea as if
waiting for John White toreturn.
Erstwhile the heartbrokenOquisko he sought to reclaim his
(37:03):
lost love and so he consulted amighty medicine man for help.
The medicine man told him toforge an arrow out of a magical
oyster shell.
SPEAKER_03 (37:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (37:13):
And this magical oyster arrow once it would
strike the doe she'll turn backinto Winona.
Okisko is now armed with thismagic arrow and he goes out to
hunt for Winona.
Sounds weird he sees herbounding through the forest he
shoots the arrow and he hits thedoe.
He runs over she falls to theground and upon transforming
(37:37):
back into Winona he realizesthat she's dead.
Winona was also struck by asilver arrow that was shot by
the witch doctor killing her.
SPEAKER_01 (37:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (37:48):
So they were shot at the same time.
SPEAKER_01 (37:50):
Nice.
SPEAKER_00 (37:51):
Okisco buried Winona in the middle of the fort that
was abandoned by her peopleyears earlier so she could be
with her own.
unknown (37:58):
Cute.
SPEAKER_00 (37:59):
Mm-hmm it's said that people can see a little
like a white doe running aroundeven well into the 20th century
hunters would come out of theforests of Roanoke Island with
tales of a strange deer thateluded them in the wilderness
and it would suddenly in thedarkness of midnight they would
see it and then it would vanishinto the mist as dawn
(38:19):
approached.
Mmm there's the story of theDare stones as well.
SPEAKER_02 (38:27):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (38:28):
Okay.
I'm guessing these are some kindof relics that were found at
this I think has a little moreum validity to it.
Okay.
Obviously the poem we knowthat's just fake.
Yeah it's just but we don't knowfor sure if they did go to
Crowotone Island or not.
That still is just what peopleare hoping because of what was
(38:49):
carved into the tree and to thepost.
The mystery of the Dare stonesthere was one stone like a big
stone found in the summer of1937.
1937 1937 okay yes we've jumpedahead again yeah the stone was
(39:10):
found by a California touristnamed Lewis Hammond.
He was in the area and the stonehad old English written on both
sides of it.
SPEAKER_02 (39:20):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (39:21):
This is at the at or near the site where the because
he's traveling around he's fromCalifornia but he's traveling I
don't know he's a tourist a fewmonths later on November 14th
the tourist Lewis shows up atEmory University in Atlanta and
he tells them that he found this21 pound stone off of this new
(39:47):
highway that was being builtHighway 17 while he was hunting
for hickory nuts.
SPEAKER_04 (39:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (39:54):
So he was out hunting for hickory nuts and
there's along the highway hejust finds this 21 pound stone
that has old English carved onit.
Okay.
And he decides to take it toEmory University in Atlanta.
And what did the professors tellhim the professors were very
intrigued by this.
They were examining it and theypoured flour on it to see the
(40:17):
markings better and they couldsee that it said and I'm going
to read what it says exactly I'mnot going to read old English
but it was translated word forword to today's English.
So I'm going to read it.
SPEAKER_02 (40:30):
It starts with like Zup bitches.
SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
Yeah yeah it was brought into the common
vernacular yes the first sidesays Ananias Dare and Virginia
went hence unto heaven 1591 soJohn White left in 1587 I think
so right?
Yeah because he didn't come backuntil 1590 that's right she was
(40:53):
born in 5 1587 right yes okayyeah so this stone if this was
carved it's 1591 so they livedquite a few years.
John White came and he couldhave found them had he kept able
to look like he they were alive.
They were alive blown to Spain.
(41:14):
Yeah right yeah blown all theway to Spain.
Yeah yeah so after that the thenext line says any Englishman
show this rock to John Whitegovernor of Virginia oh yeah
John White was going to be thegovernor of the colony too did I
say that yeah okay on side twoit says father soon after you
(41:40):
for England we came here onlymisery and war for two years
above half dead these two yearsmore from sickness being 24 do
you understand what this issaying yet they're yeah it
they're they were they werebeset by misery and war.
(42:02):
Yeah okay and were attacked andit fucking sucked to be here
yeah there's more a savage witha message of a ship came to us
within a small space of timethey became frightened of
revenge and ran all the way webelieve it was not you.
Soon after savages said the godswere angry suddenly they
(42:26):
murdered all save seven my childand Ananias too were slain with
such misery oh so it's claimingthe author is Eleanor.
Yes and she says my child andyeah yep and then she says
buried all near four miles eastof this river upon a small hill
(42:49):
names were written all there ona rock so she's referencing
burying them and then there'sanother rock over there with
their names carved into it.
Then she writes put this therealso if a savage shows this to
you we promised you would thengreat plenty presents so
(43:09):
basically we'll they'll give youpresents if you find a white guy
an Englishman running around youshow him this rock he'll give
you whatever you want yeah andthen at the end of it it was
signed with the letters E W Dthought to mean Eleanor White
Dare.
Basically she's saying half ofus are dead through fighting
(43:29):
conflict disease here's a rockwe lasted this long a few people
are buried over here whatever myfirst thought is it's too good
to be true.
If it sounds too good to be trueit probably is right and it just
it's so on the nose of like ohhere we found the the missing
link the holy grail like oh wowit's exactly what you'd want to
(43:52):
find exactly the holy grail yeahlike people at the time were
skeptical because in the area itwas being celebrated the 350th
anniversary of this they theywere very big into the Virginia
dare lore and it was a 350thanniversary.
So they thought this was apromotional stunt something like
that going on.
SPEAKER_02 (44:13):
I'm guessing also if it was legit if we if it was
proven legit then we would allknow that it wouldn't be a
mystery then.
Yeah well we would just knowwhat happened if modern
historians accepted it asaccurate.
SPEAKER_00 (44:28):
But that's why this stone is so interesting is I'll
I'll keep telling you it'sinteresting.
The Emory professors studied itand they published an article in
May of 1938.
One of the professors named Dr.
Hayward or Haywood Pierce Jr.
Pierce Jr.
is what I'm going to call himbecame a firm believer in the
(44:52):
Dare Stone's authenticity.
He really believed in it oh theDarestone is also called the
Chowan River stone becausethat's the river that it was
found near.
So you'll see both of those whenlooking into it Dr.
Pierce Jr.
persuaded his father Dr.
Pierce Sr.
to buy the stone from LewisHammond and he did.
(45:15):
And then we never see or hearfrom Lewis Hammond again.
SPEAKER_02 (45:18):
So Lewis Hammond made money off this we don't
know how much but he sold it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:23):
Well yeah but he didn't he didn't he didn't
intend to though it was offeredto him he didn't he didn't say
hey I'll sell it to you the buthe did sell it I mean there's a
whole cottage industry ofhistorical fakers you don't have
to say I found it I want to sellit you expect that someone's
going to beat the offer to youlike true you don't start with I
got this for sale it's look whatI found and you know collectors
(45:47):
or historians are going to comeout and start bidding yeah yeah
maybe maybe I don't know there'snothing known after this of him
that the traveler is gone intohistory never to be seen again.
So I'm not sure and I don't knowhow much he got for yeah how
much how much he sold the stonefor Dr.
Pierce Sr.
was the owner of Brannow Collegein Gainesville, Georgia, which
(46:11):
is now Branow University.
And this is where the stonestill resides.
Okay I was gonna ask so it'sstill at this university yes
there's multiple stones at thisuniversity though.
Pierce Jr having read what thestone says is like there's a
second stone mentioned and if wecan find that second stone then
(46:31):
it helps to authenticate thisfirst one.
SPEAKER_03 (46:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:35):
So he offers up a $500 reward for the second
stone.
How many people come does morethan one person try to claim it
so I looked up also I looked upwhat$500 was in 1938$11,200
today.
(46:55):
If you're$8 and older whichthere are some people alive
today a lot that are 88 youremember like there are people
live today with memories of$500cost value worth of$11,000.
Anyway I just had I yeah but youasked if there were a lot of
(47:16):
people that brought in stones toget this$500 reward saying
you're gonna get multiple peoplecoming forward it's just gonna
happen.
There was one man specificallythat really had a great string
of luck and found a lot ofstones.
His name is Bill Eberhart orEberhart I don't know how to
pronounce it but I did see inone of the sources that he
(47:38):
worked in like a quarry or hewas a stone something he worked
with stones he knows how to makefakes.
Yeah and I think he found 42stones damn and he would get he
would end up making two thousanddollars off of um off of this
what yep that's forty fivethousand dollars today.
So this professor Pierce he justlike yeah there wasn't a
(48:02):
condition of it must be valid tocollect the reward it was just
bring me a rock well he therethere were 42 stones total he
did so he didn't get paid forall of them.
True Pierce knows we're lookingfor one stone right and he pays
for at least four of them ifthey're 500 bucks so he knows
that in the best case he paidone guy for three fakes okay
(48:27):
yeah I think that since thisBill person is a scam artist the
way you're saying maybe he'stelling the doctor I'm not
letting you run tests on this.
I don't want you to ruin ituntil you buy it.
So maybe the doctor's like fineI'll buy these four.
SPEAKER_02 (48:43):
Yeah which is stupid.
SPEAKER_00 (48:45):
Which is stupid but it was stupid to put a reward on
this too because you're gonnaget fakes.
That's just how it is so maybethe doctor knew he was going to
get some fakes and is justassuming but yes a silly time a
silly time according to theother 42 stones that were found
the survivors of Roanokejourneyed southwest and they
(49:08):
went more towards like SouthCarolina Georgia they go on to
say that Eleanor and sixsurvivors found refuge with the
friendly Cherokees and thatEleanor married a Native
American chief in 1593 she thengave birth to his daughter and
named her Agnes.
Ew I know and then Eleanor diedin 1599 in a cave on the
(49:34):
Chattahoochee River.
Good for her I guess these wereall debunked all 42 of the
stones the the words weren'tcorrect like the language that
was used didn't match the likejust you didn't even have to
study the stone itself to knowthat this person wrote it wasn't
from that time.
I'm sure the professor still gottenure however the first dare
(49:56):
stone the authenticity is stilldebated today we don't know the
last time it was tested was in2016 at the University of North
Carolina in Asheville.
The geologist there said thatthe weathering of the stone did
match the age that it should befrom okay but others said that
(50:17):
the weathering could have beenartificially done but then
others argue that the Dare stonewas found in 1930s and to do
that type of artificialweathering there that wasn't
possible to do at the time soscholars are split on this it's
I don't know scholars are stillsplit on the shroud of Turin
which is an obvious fucking fakethe what?
(50:38):
The shroud of Turin that'smostly wrapped Jesus the white
Jesus that we've assumed hewould look like that the actual
garment or the actual robe lookslike what he was later painted
to look like by white people Ithink with things like that and
maybe this is falling into thatcategory as well you can't
(50:59):
definitively say it's not yeahyou can't say it's not right and
that's the same with this stone.
I I do find it interesting thatthe outside of it is weathered
the way that it should behowever who's to say this
traveling California person wasin in the area learns of the
lore it is the 350th anniversaryso it's everywhere maybe he
(51:21):
decides to chisel it in but hehas to be really good at old
English.
He has to know how to speak thatway like because that's not
debunked either the the writingis is correct.
SPEAKER_02 (51:32):
There is one thing there's a lot of things so I I
don't know I'm gonna I don'tknow I don't know I just food
for thought there's often whenit comes to hoaxers there's like
this catch 22 of we assume thehoaxers are also going to be
lazy too like the best hoaxersare going to do their research
they might even say in this casebut in general when documents
(51:54):
are are you know possibly fakedand the arguments be well who
would do that well if you're afaker if you want the hoax to
pass you would think SaulGoodman.
Yeah like yeah if if your wholething is look at this artifact I
found like well it seemsauthentic but you know who would
who would take the time to towrite it in the lexicon of the
(52:15):
era?
Yeah.
Someone who wants it to passconvincingly like yeah I mean I
don't know what this stone lookslike.
SPEAKER_00 (52:23):
I don't know what the actual stone material if it
you know granite or basaltwhatever the stone is but who
knows if you have sandpaper andyou just scrub it for I have no
idea substances I don't evenknow how to carve into like
normal stone for it to lastyears and years and years and
years.
I I don't I don't know I don'tknow anything about it.
(52:43):
But um it it is interesting thatit's debated and it can't be
found as a fraud it can't bedefinitively stated fraudulent.
Yeah I find that I just findthat very interesting leads me
to believe that maybe someonesurvived something because
there's three different carvingsyou know two at the site in the
wood and then this rock now butwho knows I don't know
(53:08):
ultimately we'll never know.
SPEAKER_02 (53:10):
Yeah we'll never know unless there was some
genetic testing done ondescendants of whatever whatever
current living descendants thereare of the original native
tribes in that area.
SPEAKER_00 (53:24):
If you could like go back like human genome style
there is yes there is um it'scalled I forgot what it was
called I saw this very quicklythough but this also comes up
like inconclusive there are somepromising leads I guess it's
called the Lost Colony DNA orproject someone lost colony
project Roanoke project um Ididn't I only saw that at like
(53:47):
the very end I honestly foundout about it today so I couldn't
really research it too much butthere is something with that and
I think they're looking again myquick quick scrolling of it I
didn't see that anyonedefinitively said yes we are
linked to that.
SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
And even if like a little bit showed up that would
be enough that well I wouldn'tsay that doesn't necessarily
mean the whole tribe or thewhole colony was absorbed just
the occasional fluke crosspollination for lack of a better
term doesn't mean the entirecolony was absorbed.
SPEAKER_00 (54:20):
That's true.
We could have just had twopeople that did their own little
Romeo Juliet thing.
Who knows?
It doesn't mean completeabsorption right so yeah who
really knows I don't I find thisinteresting and I wanted to do
this in lieu of doing a pilgrimone is since it is November.
Oh yeah so Thanksgiving will beright around the corner here.
And so I find this a little morefitting as a Thanksgiving story.
(54:43):
It shows kind of the true natureof everything and then yes it
was what oh my gosh when did weget here in Janestown 1607?
That sounds right and uh thatwent smoothly as well.
So okay happy Thanksgiving in acouple weeks I don't know when
I'm gonna throw this but yeshappy early Thanksgiving anyway
(55:06):
remember to follow us onInstagram at borrowed bones
podcast also rating andreviewing us really helps us a
lot.
We did just get our firstnegative review but it was like
weirdly like not that bad.
It was that we made too manyjokes and it's like oh that's
it's I'll take that yeah I'm Ican never talk about anything
(55:30):
too seriously because that'slike my nervous tick is to joke
and laugh and giggle and it canbe annoying to some I've had
people in my face say I'm tiredof your giggle and I just
giggled because it made meuncomfortable and I went okay
and just walked away like I Ican't change it.
It is who I am and if you we arenot for everyone but yes I
(55:54):
appreciated it because it reallywasn't that bad.
So if that's the worst it gets Ifeel pretty good about it.
I feel like we're finally madeit by having a negative comment
under our belt.
So indeed thank you for thatyeah follow rate review us no
press is bad press see us onInstagram maybe the new vine
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(56:17):
that would be fun I would lovethat yes till next time bye
Hello everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (00:15):
Hello.
SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
I'm Sarah.
SPEAKER_03 (00:17):
I'm Cole.
SPEAKER_00 (00:18):
You're listening to Borrowed Bones, a podcast about
fucked up, interesting, andtoxic families.
SPEAKER_01 (00:25):
Today, who are we talking about?
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
We are talking about the almost first English family
in America.
SPEAKER_02 (00:36):
Oh, okay.
The first of the imperialists.
SPEAKER_00 (00:40):
They tried to be, yes.
The Dare family.
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
Uh-huh.
Okay.
Fitting name.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
Yeah.
It is.
They're daring, I suppose, butyes.
The Dare family.
And we are starting around 1540sEngland.
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (00:59):
So a time to have been alive.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
Yes.
Somewhere in the 1540s, JohnWhite was born.
He's the start of everythinghere.
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
A guy named John White is probably the start of
yeah, imperialists best fitting.
I know.
These are the times that maybewe think maybe there is a God,
like as a script writer, becausewhen things are just too on the
nose.
Johnny White man came to Americaand pissed on everything.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
Well, maybe it's so obvious to us today because the
people with these names are theones that did it.
SPEAKER_02 (01:37):
Milktoast trendsetters.
Milktoast.
Yeah, boring, dull.
Like John White is about themost boring name you can have,
right?
John Smith and John White.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
John Smith did a lot around this time, too.
SPEAKER_02 (01:50):
Yeah.
Like the two most boring namesto have.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Yes.
So going back to John White witha at the beginning.
Um, we don't really knowanything about his early life.
It's 1540s was when he he wasborn.
SPEAKER_02 (02:05):
No one cared unless you're nobility.
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Right.
And then we're fast forwardingto 1566.
John White is now married and hehas two children.
He has a son and a daughter,Thomas and Eleanor.
Thomas passed away at a youngage, but Eleanor survived to
adulthood.
John White is first mentioned inhistorical record in 1577.
(02:30):
So now we're jumping about 10more years ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
All right.
What context does he appear?
SPEAKER_00 (02:36):
He made detailed paintings of Greenland and
Baffin Island.
Oh.
John was an artist and hespecialized in watercolors.
SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
Mm-hmm.
He was doing the paintings inGreenland and Baffin Island
because he was asked to go on anexpedition with an English
captain and privateer.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Okay.
So he's like contracted as ascientific exploration or
geographic explorer.
Exploratory mission.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
Now, John is next seen on record in the 1580s.
He was part of Sir WalterRaleigh's colonization attempts
in the 1580s.
Oh.
He was hired to paint the NewWorld.
A whole new world.
New to the whites.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (03:22):
It's new to us.
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (03:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:28):
With 600 men and seven ships, they set off on,
they set off sail.
They set off to sail.
SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
They set sail.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
They set sail.
It's April of 1585.
Their goal was to establish amilitary colony as well as a
privateering base.
They wanted to name it the Cityof Raleigh.
SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
Okay.
So North Carolina is where theyend up.
North Carolina, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
They also brought along um two Algonquin
translators, Manteo and Wanches.
SPEAKER_02 (04:03):
Okay.
Wait, they brought them withthem from Europe.
Like they were already in Europefrom a previous or did they pick
them up?
Did they like arrive in northernthe northeast coast, like main
area, pick up a couple ofAlgonquins, and then keep going?
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
At some point before this, there have been travelers,
you know, back and forth, butthis is their first attempt to
make a colony.
Okay.
And so at some point, explorerswent to our version of the New
World.
SPEAKER_04 (04:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:30):
And I don't know the whole history here, so I am very
vague on this.
But yes, they got them before.
And these Algonquin translatorswere they were friendly to them.
They they helped each other andthey were like, okay, you'll
come back with us to help settlethis colony.
SPEAKER_03 (04:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:47):
Yes.
So yes, they're starting inEngland.
While sailing across theAtlantic, a storm separated the
fleet of ships.
When the fleet finally arrived,the ships were damaged, supplies
was ruined, and they were reallyalready off to not a good start.
SPEAKER_02 (05:05):
They were already starting with a handicap.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
Yes.
So with the supplies ruined, andthe 600 men immediately know
that we can't start off thisway.
We need to turn around right nowand get more.
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
Get more supplies.
So they just have they turnedtheir ships around because they
knew they couldn't make it allthe way.
SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
Well, a few of the higher-ups decided we can do
this because we'll use thenatives, we'll be able to
communicate with them, they canhelp us with food and get us
through.
We have enough to ration it.
They could make it, but barely.
SPEAKER_03 (05:33):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
And John White didn't really care at this point
because he was there to draw andhe doesn't have a voice in the
He doesn't really care.
He's like, whatever, I'm here todo my thing.
He began creating visualrepresentations of the people,
plants, and animals.
This would give the Europeanstheir first glimpse of what life
was like in America.
(05:54):
But things were only gettingworse for them.
The Native Americans in thearea, the Sekatan and the
Croatoan, both were helpful andtraded food at first, like they
were hoping, but then therelations soured, especially
between the colonists and thesecatans.
SPEAKER_03 (06:12):
Good.
SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.
I heard two different ways ofpronunciation, and this was one
of them.
So I'm I'm really not sure,honestly, how to pronounce it of
the two ways, but this is one ofthem.
So I'm going with thispronunciation of it.
Eventually, after conflictbetween the tribes, well,
between the Sekatansspecifically and the colonists,
it got pretty violent.
(06:33):
There were some killings oneither side.
I did see some stories, and I'mnot sure exactly what happened
because they were all kind ofdifferent, but I saw one story
that the colonists wouldoverreact quite a bit.
Like one colonist was founddead, murdered by the Native
Americans, and they in turn likeburned down their whole, you
(06:53):
know, village.
So things like that werehappening at this time, and it
was not good.
So even though the Croatoantribe was still friendly with
them because Manteo was aCroatowan and he stayed loyal
with the English while he wasthere, they still stopped
providing food.
(07:14):
I think they were caught in themiddle at this time, kind of
like, uh, we're out of stand,like we're Switzerland, you
know, we're not gonna doanything.
So the colonists were no longergetting help.
And again, the limited supplies.
Their backup wasn't backing themup.
SPEAKER_02 (07:28):
They weren't invited there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (07:29):
So screw them.
SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
Mm-hmm.
So, because of this, they didfinally have to leave.
John was a part of the journeyback to England.
They left in August of 1585 toget more people and supplies.
Fifte men were left at thecolony, though, just to maintain
their claim of it.
Like we're here.
SPEAKER_03 (07:50):
Just 15.
Just 15.
SPEAKER_00 (07:52):
By that time, there was a standoff, like standstill.
No one was messing with anyoneanymore.
It was pretty much done.
unknown (07:57):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (07:58):
So they thought.
Upon arriving in England, Johnwas tasked with recruiting
members to the new colony.
And he was going to be thegovernor of the Virginia colony.
So they have this first militarycolony there that didn't really
go so well, but they're hopefulthat the 15 men will continue to
(08:20):
build and grow and maybe fixrelations with the native
people.
This is the plan.
John is now bringing civilians.
He has 117 people that agree togo on the voyage.
And among them was his daughter,Eleanor, and her husband,
(08:41):
Ananias Dare.
SPEAKER_02 (08:43):
Ananias Dare.
SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
Mm-hmm.
Isn't that a fun name?
SPEAKER_02 (08:46):
Sounds like a Star Wars name.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
It does, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:50):
Mastodair.
SPEAKER_00 (08:52):
And I don't know where John's wife is anymore.
She's not talked about it all.
SPEAKER_02 (08:55):
So she was a woman.
Yeah.
That's not important as history.
SPEAKER_00 (08:58):
Yep, she's done.
So the plan was to settle in theChesapeake Bay, about 90 miles
north of Roanoke Island.
That's their goal, is to get upthere.
SPEAKER_03 (09:07):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (09:09):
The colonists departed England in April of
1587, arriving on the coast ofRoanoke Island on July 22nd,
1587.
About two-month voyage.
SPEAKER_03 (09:20):
Lovely.
SPEAKER_00 (09:21):
Mm-hmm.
John White and a few other menwent ashore before the rest of
everyone to try and find the 15men left behind and see what's
up.
And they found no trace of thesemen.
No bodies, no bones, nothingburied, nothing.
SPEAKER_02 (09:38):
Is the settlement still there?
Just abandoned.
SPEAKER_00 (09:41):
It was abandoned.
It was broken, you know, uh tornup.
They found where it was anyway.
unknown (09:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
Yep.
And they decided, okay, well,they're not here.
Maybe they moved up north ormaybe they went somewhere.
They got attacked and they leftand went somewhere.
John goes back to the ship andhe asks the ship pilot to take
them north to Chesapeake Bay, 90miles north.
And the pilot of a ship issomeone who's like an
experienced guide of that landand area.
(10:10):
And the pilot said, no, we'renot going any further north.
It's too late into the seasonand it's going to be too cold.
SPEAKER_01 (10:16):
Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
Mm-hmm.
Because they wanted to likeplant crops and everything and
get things rolling.
So they had to set up on RoanokeIsland.
The colonists repaired thebuildings that were there.
And just a few days later, therewas a colonist that was killed
by members of the Roanoke tribe.
unknown (10:36):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
Okay.
So there's three tribes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
This is now another tribe entered in.
Yes.
Yes.
Now we're focusing on theRoanoke.
SPEAKER_03 (10:46):
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
John White led the way for colonists to retaliate,
but they accidentally attackedthe Croatoan tribe instead of
the Roanoke tribe.
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
Surprised that these white people didn't recognize
the distinctions in minoritygroups.
SPEAKER_00 (11:03):
Right.
So tensions were mounting yetagain.
The white colonists were ruiningthese relationships.
The colonists insisted that Johngo back to England for more
supplies and help.
We've been here before, guys.
We've been here before.
unknown (11:18):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
I still wonder that Europeans ever got a foothold on
this continent.
SPEAKER_00 (11:23):
I don't understand it.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Einstein's 2020, but I think if the native tribes had
been unified in opposition tous, I mean, hence why the
Vikings were repelled 400 yearsbeforehand and just gave up on
this continent.
SPEAKER_00 (11:38):
Oh, were they fought off?
SPEAKER_02 (11:40):
There's different theory.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
One of the I just figure the Vikings weren't the
way the English were.
And they're like, no, there'sland there, we mapped it, we
know it's there.
Bye.
SPEAKER_02 (11:48):
I've read different theories, and one of them is
that some conflict did arisebetween the Vikings and the
further northeastern tribes thatmade Vikings be like, you know
what, it's not worth the effort.
SPEAKER_03 (12:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:00):
And one of the reasons is that I'm gonna do an
tangent here for and again.
This is can't cite it, so lookit up.
Feel free to check my math onthis.
SPEAKER_00 (12:09):
It's okay to be corrected.
SPEAKER_02 (12:10):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
But one of the more uh esoterictheories is that in the they
would you know when the Vikingsand the native tribes initially
had contact, they were fairlyfriendly, you know, they
exchanged some goods, Vikingsleft for a couple years, came
back, and they were attacked.
They were like shot at witharrows and lances before they
could like make landfall.
(12:30):
They're like, all right, well,what happened, but while we were
gone, they soured on us.
So the theory is that becausecheese and dairy was a huge part
of the Vikings diet, they gavesome to the natives who were not
used to it, they were lactoseintolerant, they perceived it as
being poisoned.
And when they came back, they'relike, fuck these Vikings, fuck
(12:51):
these Norse, and they're they'retrying to kill us.
Wow.
And to that, they're like, weweren't trying to kill them, we
just I mean, obviously, they hadno idea that different diets in
different parts of the worldwould react differently.
SPEAKER_00 (13:01):
Wow, yeah, that is interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (13:03):
It's a speculative one, but well, learning is
interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
Learning about this, I don't understand why the
English tried so hard tocolonize this.
I don't get it because therewere so many failed attempts.
Like there really were, and Ithink we just kept coming.
Yeah, it's like ants beingmurdered by ants.
Yeah.
Well, so John had to go back toEngland for more supplies and
(13:29):
help.
However, he was reluctant to doso because his daughter,
Eleanor, just had a baby girlnamed Virginia Dare.
Born August 18th of 1587.
And we know this because she wasthe second person baptized in
America.
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
Who's the first?
SPEAKER_00 (13:48):
Uh, some other person, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (13:49):
But she was the first born.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
Okay, so like an adult was baptized.
I think so, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
It was.
I think it was a NativeAmerican.
Oh, okay, gotcha.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (13:58):
Yeah, it makes sense.
Yeah.
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
Um, but she was so we have like a record of her,
and she was named after the newcolony, Virginia.
How hopeful they are.
It's like a jinx.
SPEAKER_02 (14:09):
Yeah.
Hopefully get you killed.
SPEAKER_00 (14:11):
Well, I and the thing is, is they landed July
22nd.
Virginia gave, or Virginia wasborn August 18th.
SPEAKER_03 (14:19):
Oh, so she was pregnant.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
Eleanor was like eight, seven months pregnant
because it took two months of ajourney.
Like, holy shit.
SPEAKER_02 (14:27):
Must have been some rough morning sickness with when
I was I mean, who knows?
SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
Oh my god, I'm surprised she didn't have the
baby on the boat.
So that's pretty amazing.
Um, but yes, so John did notreally want to leave because his
granddaughter was just born.
She was only nine days old whenJohn left for England.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
Gotta do what you gotta do.
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
Mm-hmm.
So now let's talk a little bitabout Ananias and Eleanor.
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:53):
They probably married in 1583.
We don't know for sure.
Somewhere in the early 1580s.
Ananias was a tiler and abricklayer.
SPEAKER_02 (15:03):
A Tyler?
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Like tiles?
Oh, okay.
I don't know how to say thatwithout the accent.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
I was thinking like the name Tyler.
Like, what does that mean?
Yeah.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
Tyler?
SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
Yes.
He laid tiles.
Yes.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:16):
And a bricklayer.
SPEAKER_02 (15:17):
A bricklayer, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
He belonged to a guild in England.
This was the bricklayer's guild.
SPEAKER_03 (15:23):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
Which was a higher up thing in England.
This offers evidence that he'sof a higher social status.
SPEAKER_02 (15:30):
Probably like the early Masonic uh guilds.
The Freemasons today.
It all started with what wasessentially like an early labor
union of literal stonemasons.
SPEAKER_00 (15:42):
Oh, nice.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (15:43):
They called it a guild.
SPEAKER_00 (15:44):
That's the Stonemasons Guild, the
bricklayers guild.
SPEAKER_02 (15:47):
And then it eventually just evolved to you
know Freemasonry being its ownfraternal entity, close society,
but it started as a literal likelabor union, what we call today.
SPEAKER_00 (15:57):
Interesting.
Okay, so yes.
SPEAKER_02 (15:58):
So that's like all these guilds were starting.
unknown (16:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
Well, he was a part of bargaining in the early days.
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
Yes.
Ananias was also one of the nineassistants that were granted a
coat of arms when sent toRoanoke Island.
Obviously, he went to Roanokewith his wife, Eleanor.
We don't really know much aboutEleanor other than she's the
woman of all of this.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
Woman in history.
SPEAKER_00 (16:22):
I don't know anything else.
SPEAKER_02 (16:23):
Unless you're Cleopatra or Joan of Arc or
something.
SPEAKER_00 (16:28):
Ananias was most likely given a leadership role
for the new colony.
His name did fall third on alist of the colonists for
Roanoke, which, given Englishtradition, they do put things in
order of importance.
This was interesting though.
Ananias left a son back inEngland.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(16:48):
And he was like legitimate, Iguess, but he wasn't Eleanor's
son, most likely.
I guess we don't knowdefinitively, but Eleanor, they
didn't, he didn't come withthem.
So we know that his son, John,existed because the son, John,
was able to acquire Ananiasis'sproperty after not hearing or
(17:10):
seeing him for seven years.
That was the time frame.
And he was granted his property.
So it's a pretty strong argumentof that's his son, you know?
The English government felt likeit was.
So yes, together, Ananias andthe very pregnant Eleanor and
her father, John White, were offto the new world.
(17:32):
Now we're up to speed.
John White, as we know, had toleave to get more supplies.
As he's on his way back toEngland, his ship runs into very
rough waters, bad storms,damaging his ship severely.
Like he barely made it back.
He does land in Europe inOctober of 1587.
(17:53):
John quickly finds and meetswith Sir Walter Raleigh, and he
wants to also meet with QueenElizabeth because he's like,
hey, I need to get another shipto go back to Roanoke with
supplies and more men.
We need to go back right now.
But at this time, tensions wererising between England and Spain
(18:14):
and they finally reached abreaking point.
The Spanish Armada was gatheringto attack, and England had no
navy at this time.
Or they had a small one orsomething.
I don't know exactly.
I don't know 1500s England thatwell.
But Queen Elizabeth said allships need to be used to defend
England right now.
(18:34):
All of them.
So, John, you're not getting aship.
Yeah.
Sorry, you're stuck.
Who cares about Roanoke rightnow?
We're worried about MamaEngland, the motherland.
It wouldn't be until 1590 thathe would find a way back to
Roanoke.
SPEAKER_02 (18:49):
Three years.
SPEAKER_00 (18:49):
Three years.
John found passage on aprivateering ship.
They agreed for him to tagalong.
And on March 20th of 1590, theyleft.
They made stops along the way,so it took a little while for
them to get back or get toRoanoke.
(20:43):
But they finally dropped Johnoff on Roanoke Island on August
18th of 1590, which ironicallyis exactly Virginia's third
birthday.
SPEAKER_01 (20:56):
Maybe if she's alive.
It would have been.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
Yeah.
When John went ashore to see hisfamily and the colonists, he
found what looked like a fortkind of made up of the street.
SPEAKER_02 (21:08):
He's saying deja vu of yes.
Like this guy keeps losing hispeople.
unknown (21:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
There was a fence of wood, iron forming around,
making like an enclosure lookinglike a fort.
There were houses missing.
They weren't really missingpeople.
They literally tore wood fromthe houses to make this fort.
SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
Okay.
So they're scavenging theiryeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:31):
Yep.
There were no people found,nothing.
There weren't, again, no bones,no bodies, nothing buried, no
evidence of really what happenedother than this fort.
But there were a couple clues.
There were the letters C R Ocarved into a tree.
And then the word Croatoancarved into a post that was a
(21:56):
part of the fort.
So John thought that this meantthe colonists relocated to the
island of Croatoan, which ismodern day Hatteras?
I don't know.
I didn't know that.
I've never heard of thatactually.
And it's in our country.
SPEAKER_02 (22:13):
There's a lot of islands already up and down the
East Coast that's that oneisland.
I think it's off the coast ofVirginia.
It's super isolated, and likethere's still British accents by
the natives.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Flick it up.
I read about it recently, like afew years ago.
Like there's this one isolated,like you that still has the
trace of an English accentbecause they're so they've been
(22:33):
so isolated, and it's like thelast trace of an English accent
in continental US.
SPEAKER_00 (22:39):
I wonder if it's like old English though.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02 (22:42):
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean it's evolved, sure.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
But like they they stopped learning English by old
English time.
They're not old English, Iguess, but like kind of
middle-ish English.
Weird.
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
I mean, it's the accent, not necessarily the dot,
but the language.
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Well, yeah, they have internet and they're not
like isolated.
They have TVs.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Yeah, the vocabulary is probably modern and oh my
god.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
The edibles kicking in.
They still speak like e old.
No.
SPEAKER_02 (23:12):
That's really where my head went.
So who they think is the king?
I I don't think it's till 1650.
SPEAKER_00 (23:20):
But how did oh anyway, whatever.
We need to look into that.
I don't understand it.
I don't want to look it upbecause I want it to be true.
Yeah.
So I'm not looking it up.
I want this in my life.
There's an old English islandoff of North Carolina or
Virginia.
Somewhere on that.
Yeah.
It's in the speak old English.
We should go.
Anyway.
(23:41):
So John figures they allrelocated to be with the
Croatoan tribe because Manteowas still around and he was
still loyal to the Englishthrough all of these conflicts.
SPEAKER_02 (23:54):
As far as we know.
There's always like these gapsin the historical record that
they take for granted.
I'm like, but even as documentedas it is, there's still like
two-year gaps sometimes.
And like you don't know.
Mateo could have been walkingunder a tree in a branch fell
and killed him, and we just, youknow, life still happens.
It's like, oh well, he was here.
Well, he was here when you lefttwo years ago.
Right.
(24:14):
He could have scratched his armand gotten an infection and died
of sepsis three days later.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
Like it could have been anything.
Yeah.
You have no idea.
Right.
Well, here's the story.
John is thinking because we dohave the words Croatoan.
So he's taking that andassuming, inferring that Manteo
took them to his tribe and hispeople.
The other Native American thatcame with them, Wanches, he
(24:44):
through all the conflicts doesturn on the English and sides
with the Native Americans.
Good for him.
So that's the split there.
Keep that in your back pocket.
SPEAKER_04 (24:51):
Good for him.
unknown (24:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
I know I kind of felt that way too.
I was like, get it.
So John wanted to go take theship up to Crowatone Island.
He's like, well, obviously,let's go check it out.
Yeah.
However, there was a hurricanecoming and the ship, they still
tried to go, and the ship wasblown way off course.
(25:13):
And according to this, um, thenext time they saw land, they
were off the coast of Spain.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
A hurricane blew them across the Atlantic Ocean.
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (25:24):
Yep.
Sure.
Why not?
SPEAKER_02 (25:25):
Maybe they were pushing to the Bermuda Triangle
and a gap, a lacuna inspace-time opened and
transported them.
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
I saw multiple um sites that said this, and then I
saw one that said maybe they gotblown to the Caribbean islands,
but either way, there was Ithink there was some type of a
storm that blew them off course.
SPEAKER_02 (25:46):
Maybe they meant like Spanish-controlled
Caribbean islands, like notmainland actually, like Iberian
Peninsula of Spain, but maybelike some Spanish plantations
and uh you know, sugarplantations or whatever.
If those were I mean, I don'tknow exactly what was going on
at the same time, what Spain'sinterests were in North America
at that time, but they were inFlorida.
(26:09):
So maybe they just got pushed toSpain.
SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
Spanish territory, yeah.
I don't know.
Either way, they got blown offcourse.
I like to think like a LooneyTune style of like blowing all
the way to Spain.
SPEAKER_02 (26:24):
Wound up in Alaska.
What?
unknown (26:25):
Yeah, how?
SPEAKER_00 (26:26):
What?
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
It picked you up and took you over the North American
continent.
SPEAKER_00 (26:31):
But either way, the ship does arrive back in England
in October of 1590.
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Very little is known about John White after his
return to England.
SPEAKER_02 (26:41):
Oh, so they never actually went to Croatunno
Island?
So they just Does it?
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
Yeah, they never actually went to the island to
look.
SPEAKER_02 (26:47):
So he wasn't that concerned about his family.
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
We we know very little about John White after
his return to England.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
I tried, but fuck it, the wind was blowing too
hard.
So I just decided screw it, I'mgoing all the way back to
England.
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
Well, we do know that he moved to Ireland and
passed away in as early as 1593or lasted until 1606.
But that's it.
Okay.
So he ends up in Ireland, andthat's where he settles and ends
his life.
He didn't end his own life, butwhatever.
(27:20):
You know what I mean?
John did, though, write ajournal, and he also wrote a
letter, and he sent the letterand journal to a man named
Richard, who would then laterpublish them.
In John's journal, he writesabout the lost colony, and he
mentions that between him andthe colonists there was a secret
token agreed upon.
(27:42):
It was said between them that ifthey left, they were to carve
into a post, tree, door,anything indicating where they
are.
Also, if they were in distress,he told the colonists to carve
over the letters a cross.
Like a religious cross in acertain form.
It was like a certain way.
(28:05):
And he says in his journal thathe did not find any signs of
distress.
There were no crosses on top ofthose letters.
SPEAKER_02 (28:12):
Always possible someone was killed before that
could be done.
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
Exactly.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
You don't always get to sound the alarm when you're
killed.
SPEAKER_00 (28:18):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (28:19):
He Especially carving, like I know the most
like could and not obviouslydidn't have like loose leaf
paper and all that, but likeyou'd think there'd be more
practical ways to leave a notethan spending however long it
takes to carve into Well, theyprobably wanted a more of a
permanent way to keep a note,but I I don't imagine being
under attack and chiseling andcarving.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
And the way it said is that the bark of the tree was
stripped first.
So they they cleared the theycleared an empty space on the
tree or on the post, and thenthey carved into it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:53):
And the whole the other tree had CRO right.
Did like they start and then belike, oh, I fucked up, I
misspelled.
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
I was wondering the same thing.
I don't know.
We don't know.
We don't know.
So even like kind of like whatwe're surmising, even though
there was no cross over theletters, he was still concerned
with how the houses were takendown, how the fort was created,
and everything was prettyovergrown as well.
So he knew it had been a while.
There was a little bit ofsupplies that was left.
(29:22):
The maps, oh, John White alsodid mapping for the area, too.
I don't know what thatprofession is.
Calligraphy.
SPEAKER_02 (29:31):
Excuse me, uh, cartographer.
Cartographer.
SPEAKER_00 (29:33):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (29:34):
Yeah, yeah.
I knew it started with the C.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
But yes, so some of the maps that he drew up were
spoiled by the rain, and um, healso found that he had armor
that he left there that was nowrusted through.
SPEAKER_03 (29:48):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (29:48):
So it's been a little while since anyone's been
at this.
SPEAKER_02 (29:52):
It's been exposed to the elements for a few seasons.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
So what happened?
That's what John White writes inhis journal.
He doesn't really go on to Hedoesn't give the conclusions.
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
He's just This is what I saw.
This is what I saw.
He is what you can.
SPEAKER_00 (31:15):
His his I his thought is that they went to the
island.
He he does lean that way.
I don't know how much hebelieves it.
You know, that's what I wouldbelieve if I were him.
SPEAKER_02 (31:26):
The new structure that he found there was made for
a defensive like which implies asiege, even though there's no
bodies found.
But again, if it happened years,I mean, if it happened a year
before he got there, bodiescould have been disposed of.
I mean, who knows?
SPEAKER_00 (31:45):
Who knows?
They could have just been thrownin the water.
Yeah.
Who knows?
This is all so long ago.
I have no idea.
However, there are a fewtheories and legends and myths
surrounding this.
So this is the fun part.
Local legend says that thecolonists survived and they
lived with the Croatoans.
Assimilating, intermarrying.
(32:07):
People have said that early onother colonists would see little
blonde hair Native Americans orlike a Native American with blue
eyes.
And that was evidence to themthat oh, they they they went,
they did it.
SPEAKER_03 (32:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
But who knows?
Because it it wouldn't take verylong for the blonde hair and
blue eyes to be out of that ifthe majority of people have
brown hair and brown eyes.
Like so it would take a couplegenerations, that's about it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:33):
But there's only like what 20, 25 individuals.
I don't know how many with thatcompared to however many
thousands of like it's gonna getfiltered out pretty quickly for
the most part.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
So legend has it that some people have seen
Native Americans with blondehair, blue eyes.
Who knows?
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
It's also worth considering that European
folklore at this time had a longstanding myth of like a white.
tribe out there.
So like there was often accountsof blonde-haired, blue-eyed
Native American tribes out therethat you know obviously wasn't
true, but there was this myth ofthe time.
SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
Oh.
Did the myth you think happenafter the lost colony?
SPEAKER_02 (33:17):
Probably.
I mean, because this is theearliest.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
This does grow quite a bit.
SPEAKER_02 (33:22):
And as as westward expansion, you know, kept going,
then you know the goalposts keptgetting moved.
The mythical white tribe is nowfurther west and west.
It's always you know the nexttribe.
SPEAKER_00 (33:34):
The next one you'll find.
Right.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:36):
But that was always an inherent wishful thinking of
our racism.
You know we'll find them justlike us.
Yeah kind of bullshit.
It verifies it validates whatwe're doing.
Right.
Not to get into that but yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:50):
So of course people were intrigued by this as we're
pointing out right now the whitetribe and a part of this
intrigue really focused andcentered on the firstborn child
Virginia Dare.
They they want her to have livedand survived and grown with the
Croaton people.
SPEAKER_02 (34:10):
It's a potent symbol of American mythmaking.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
The firstborn European yeah and as time passes
the legend would grow andVirginia Dare would become the
subject of American mythology.
Mm-hmm her story is that notlong after John White's
departure, Juan Cheese, thatother Native American
(34:36):
translator, he launched anattack against the colonists.
He was just waiting.
SPEAKER_03 (34:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:43):
And among the few survivors were Ananias, Eleanor,
and Virginia Dare.
Manteo would go on to rescue theDare family and take them to his
people on Crowtown Island.
SPEAKER_02 (34:57):
This is all just myths all myths.
There's no citation for thisthere's no kind of evidence.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
No evidence.
This is all from here on out ofthe folklore this is the
folklore.
Yes.
According to legend Virginia'sparents died soon after this and
Manteo and his people cared forVirginia.
They would call her Winona.
SPEAKER_02 (35:19):
Ah Winona Judd this is Winona Judd's origin story.
From the Juds country singernever mind.
SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
I don't cut that no it is said that Manteo taught
her the ways of the forest andthe land as she grew into
womanhood the ace of the ways ofthe force oh the ways of the
force yes this is getting alittle too much into the magical
yeah bullshit.
So now we're going to take a bigleap into the future we have
(35:48):
American author Sally SouthallCotton.
SPEAKER_01 (35:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:54):
What you this is 1901 and she's from the Virginia
area.
I don't I forgot exactly wherebut she's from the area Roanoke
area.
Chesapeake area North Carolinayou know all there.
And she writes a book lengthpoem about Virginia dare in
1901.
It's titled The White Doe.
(36:17):
In this story there were manyNative Americans that competed
for Winona or Virginia Winonachose a very handsome man named
Okisco and there was another manthat was also wanting her love
but he was rejected and he was awitch doctor.
He was very mad about beingrejected he didn't like it so he
(36:40):
cast a spell on Winona turningher into a snow white doe.
Over the years the white doe wassaid to be seen gracefully
moving about the landscape ofthe island.
Sometimes the doe would be seenlooking out at the sea as if
waiting for John White toreturn.
Erstwhile the heartbrokenOquisko he sought to reclaim his
(37:03):
lost love and so he consulted amighty medicine man for help.
The medicine man told him toforge an arrow out of a magical
oyster shell.
SPEAKER_03 (37:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (37:13):
And this magical oyster arrow once it would
strike the doe she'll turn backinto Winona.
Okisko is now armed with thismagic arrow and he goes out to
hunt for Winona.
Sounds weird he sees herbounding through the forest he
shoots the arrow and he hits thedoe.
He runs over she falls to theground and upon transforming
(37:37):
back into Winona he realizesthat she's dead.
Winona was also struck by asilver arrow that was shot by
the witch doctor killing her.
SPEAKER_01 (37:47):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (37:48):
So they were shot at the same time.
SPEAKER_01 (37:50):
Nice.
SPEAKER_00 (37:51):
Okisco buried Winona in the middle of the fort that
was abandoned by her peopleyears earlier so she could be
with her own.
unknown (37:58):
Cute.
SPEAKER_00 (37:59):
Mm-hmm it's said that people can see a little
like a white doe running aroundeven well into the 20th century
hunters would come out of theforests of Roanoke Island with
tales of a strange deer thateluded them in the wilderness
and it would suddenly in thedarkness of midnight they would
see it and then it would vanishinto the mist as dawn
(38:19):
approached.
Mmm there's the story of theDare stones as well.
SPEAKER_02 (38:27):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (38:28):
Okay.
I'm guessing these are some kindof relics that were found at
this I think has a little moreum validity to it.
Okay.
Obviously the poem we knowthat's just fake.
Yeah it's just but we don't knowfor sure if they did go to
Crowotone Island or not.
That still is just what peopleare hoping because of what was
(38:49):
carved into the tree and to thepost.
The mystery of the Dare stonesthere was one stone like a big
stone found in the summer of1937.
1937 1937 okay yes we've jumpedahead again yeah the stone was
(39:10):
found by a California touristnamed Lewis Hammond.
He was in the area and the stonehad old English written on both
sides of it.
SPEAKER_02 (39:20):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (39:21):
This is at the at or near the site where the because
he's traveling around he's fromCalifornia but he's traveling I
don't know he's a tourist a fewmonths later on November 14th
the tourist Lewis shows up atEmory University in Atlanta and
he tells them that he found this21 pound stone off of this new
(39:47):
highway that was being builtHighway 17 while he was hunting
for hickory nuts.
SPEAKER_04 (39:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (39:54):
So he was out hunting for hickory nuts and
there's along the highway hejust finds this 21 pound stone
that has old English carved onit.
Okay.
And he decides to take it toEmory University in Atlanta.
And what did the professors tellhim the professors were very
intrigued by this.
They were examining it and theypoured flour on it to see the
(40:17):
markings better and they couldsee that it said and I'm going
to read what it says exactly I'mnot going to read old English
but it was translated word forword to today's English.
So I'm going to read it.
SPEAKER_02 (40:30):
It starts with like Zup bitches.
SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
Yeah yeah it was brought into the common
vernacular yes the first sidesays Ananias Dare and Virginia
went hence unto heaven 1591 soJohn White left in 1587 I think
so right?
Yeah because he didn't come backuntil 1590 that's right she was
(40:53):
born in 5 1587 right yes okayyeah so this stone if this was
carved it's 1591 so they livedquite a few years.
John White came and he couldhave found them had he kept able
to look like he they were alive.
They were alive blown to Spain.
(41:14):
Yeah right yeah blown all theway to Spain.
Yeah yeah so after that the thenext line says any Englishman
show this rock to John Whitegovernor of Virginia oh yeah
John White was going to be thegovernor of the colony too did I
say that yeah okay on side twoit says father soon after you
(41:40):
for England we came here onlymisery and war for two years
above half dead these two yearsmore from sickness being 24 do
you understand what this issaying yet they're yeah it
they're they were they werebeset by misery and war.
(42:02):
Yeah okay and were attacked andit fucking sucked to be here
yeah there's more a savage witha message of a ship came to us
within a small space of timethey became frightened of
revenge and ran all the way webelieve it was not you.
Soon after savages said the godswere angry suddenly they
(42:26):
murdered all save seven my childand Ananias too were slain with
such misery oh so it's claimingthe author is Eleanor.
Yes and she says my child andyeah yep and then she says
buried all near four miles eastof this river upon a small hill
(42:49):
names were written all there ona rock so she's referencing
burying them and then there'sanother rock over there with
their names carved into it.
Then she writes put this therealso if a savage shows this to
you we promised you would thengreat plenty presents so
(43:09):
basically we'll they'll give youpresents if you find a white guy
an Englishman running around youshow him this rock he'll give
you whatever you want yeah andthen at the end of it it was
signed with the letters E W Dthought to mean Eleanor White
Dare.
Basically she's saying half ofus are dead through fighting
(43:29):
conflict disease here's a rockwe lasted this long a few people
are buried over here whatever myfirst thought is it's too good
to be true.
If it sounds too good to be trueit probably is right and it just
it's so on the nose of like ohhere we found the the missing
link the holy grail like oh wowit's exactly what you'd want to
(43:52):
find exactly the holy grail yeahlike people at the time were
skeptical because in the area itwas being celebrated the 350th
anniversary of this they theywere very big into the Virginia
dare lore and it was a 350thanniversary.
So they thought this was apromotional stunt something like
that going on.
SPEAKER_02 (44:13):
I'm guessing also if it was legit if we if it was
proven legit then we would allknow that it wouldn't be a
mystery then.
Yeah well we would just knowwhat happened if modern
historians accepted it asaccurate.
SPEAKER_00 (44:28):
But that's why this stone is so interesting is I'll
I'll keep telling you it'sinteresting.
The Emory professors studied itand they published an article in
May of 1938.
One of the professors named Dr.
Hayward or Haywood Pierce Jr.
Pierce Jr.
is what I'm going to call himbecame a firm believer in the
(44:52):
Dare Stone's authenticity.
He really believed in it oh theDarestone is also called the
Chowan River stone becausethat's the river that it was
found near.
So you'll see both of those whenlooking into it Dr.
Pierce Jr.
persuaded his father Dr.
Pierce Sr.
to buy the stone from LewisHammond and he did.
(45:15):
And then we never see or hearfrom Lewis Hammond again.
SPEAKER_02 (45:18):
So Lewis Hammond made money off this we don't
know how much but he sold it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:23):
Well yeah but he didn't he didn't he didn't
intend to though it was offeredto him he didn't he didn't say
hey I'll sell it to you the buthe did sell it I mean there's a
whole cottage industry ofhistorical fakers you don't have
to say I found it I want to sellit you expect that someone's
going to beat the offer to youlike true you don't start with I
got this for sale it's look whatI found and you know collectors
(45:47):
or historians are going to comeout and start bidding yeah yeah
maybe maybe I don't know there'snothing known after this of him
that the traveler is gone intohistory never to be seen again.
So I'm not sure and I don't knowhow much he got for yeah how
much how much he sold the stonefor Dr.
Pierce Sr.
was the owner of Brannow Collegein Gainesville, Georgia, which
(46:11):
is now Branow University.
And this is where the stonestill resides.
Okay I was gonna ask so it'sstill at this university yes
there's multiple stones at thisuniversity though.
Pierce Jr having read what thestone says is like there's a
second stone mentioned and if wecan find that second stone then
(46:31):
it helps to authenticate thisfirst one.
SPEAKER_03 (46:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (46:35):
So he offers up a $500 reward for the second
stone.
How many people come does morethan one person try to claim it
so I looked up also I looked upwhat$500 was in 1938$11,200
today.
(46:55):
If you're$8 and older whichthere are some people alive
today a lot that are 88 youremember like there are people
live today with memories of$500cost value worth of$11,000.
Anyway I just had I yeah but youasked if there were a lot of
(47:16):
people that brought in stones toget this$500 reward saying
you're gonna get multiple peoplecoming forward it's just gonna
happen.
There was one man specificallythat really had a great string
of luck and found a lot ofstones.
His name is Bill Eberhart orEberhart I don't know how to
pronounce it but I did see inone of the sources that he
(47:38):
worked in like a quarry or hewas a stone something he worked
with stones he knows how to makefakes.
Yeah and I think he found 42stones damn and he would get he
would end up making two thousanddollars off of um off of this
what yep that's forty fivethousand dollars today.
So this professor Pierce he justlike yeah there wasn't a
(48:02):
condition of it must be valid tocollect the reward it was just
bring me a rock well he therethere were 42 stones total he
did so he didn't get paid forall of them.
True Pierce knows we're lookingfor one stone right and he pays
for at least four of them ifthey're 500 bucks so he knows
that in the best case he paidone guy for three fakes okay
(48:27):
yeah I think that since thisBill person is a scam artist the
way you're saying maybe he'stelling the doctor I'm not
letting you run tests on this.
I don't want you to ruin ituntil you buy it.
So maybe the doctor's like fineI'll buy these four.
SPEAKER_02 (48:43):
Yeah which is stupid.
SPEAKER_00 (48:45):
Which is stupid but it was stupid to put a reward on
this too because you're gonnaget fakes.
That's just how it is so maybethe doctor knew he was going to
get some fakes and is justassuming but yes a silly time a
silly time according to theother 42 stones that were found
the survivors of Roanokejourneyed southwest and they
(49:08):
went more towards like SouthCarolina Georgia they go on to
say that Eleanor and sixsurvivors found refuge with the
friendly Cherokees and thatEleanor married a Native
American chief in 1593 she thengave birth to his daughter and
named her Agnes.
Ew I know and then Eleanor diedin 1599 in a cave on the
(49:34):
Chattahoochee River.
Good for her I guess these wereall debunked all 42 of the
stones the the words weren'tcorrect like the language that
was used didn't match the likejust you didn't even have to
study the stone itself to knowthat this person wrote it wasn't
from that time.
I'm sure the professor still gottenure however the first dare
(49:56):
stone the authenticity is stilldebated today we don't know the
last time it was tested was in2016 at the University of North
Carolina in Asheville.
The geologist there said thatthe weathering of the stone did
match the age that it should befrom okay but others said that
(50:17):
the weathering could have beenartificially done but then
others argue that the Dare stonewas found in 1930s and to do
that type of artificialweathering there that wasn't
possible to do at the time soscholars are split on this it's
I don't know scholars are stillsplit on the shroud of Turin
which is an obvious fucking fakethe what?
(50:38):
The shroud of Turin that'smostly wrapped Jesus the white
Jesus that we've assumed hewould look like that the actual
garment or the actual robe lookslike what he was later painted
to look like by white people Ithink with things like that and
maybe this is falling into thatcategory as well you can't
(50:59):
definitively say it's not yeahyou can't say it's not right and
that's the same with this stone.
I I do find it interesting thatthe outside of it is weathered
the way that it should behowever who's to say this
traveling California person wasin in the area learns of the
lore it is the 350th anniversaryso it's everywhere maybe he
(51:21):
decides to chisel it in but hehas to be really good at old
English.
He has to know how to speak thatway like because that's not
debunked either the the writingis is correct.
SPEAKER_02 (51:32):
There is one thing there's a lot of things so I I
don't know I'm gonna I don'tknow I don't know I just food
for thought there's often whenit comes to hoaxers there's like
this catch 22 of we assume thehoaxers are also going to be
lazy too like the best hoaxersare going to do their research
they might even say in this casebut in general when documents
(51:54):
are are you know possibly fakedand the arguments be well who
would do that well if you're afaker if you want the hoax to
pass you would think SaulGoodman.
Yeah like yeah if if your wholething is look at this artifact I
found like well it seemsauthentic but you know who would
who would take the time to towrite it in the lexicon of the
(52:15):
era?
Yeah.
Someone who wants it to passconvincingly like yeah I mean I
don't know what this stone lookslike.
SPEAKER_00 (52:23):
I don't know what the actual stone material if it
you know granite or basaltwhatever the stone is but who
knows if you have sandpaper andyou just scrub it for I have no
idea substances I don't evenknow how to carve into like
normal stone for it to lastyears and years and years and
years.
I I don't I don't know I don'tknow anything about it.
(52:43):
But um it it is interesting thatit's debated and it can't be
found as a fraud it can't bedefinitively stated fraudulent.
Yeah I find that I just findthat very interesting leads me
to believe that maybe someonesurvived something because
there's three different carvingsyou know two at the site in the
wood and then this rock now butwho knows I don't know
(53:08):
ultimately we'll never know.
SPEAKER_02 (53:10):
Yeah we'll never know unless there was some
genetic testing done ondescendants of whatever whatever
current living descendants thereare of the original native
tribes in that area.
SPEAKER_00 (53:24):
If you could like go back like human genome style
there is yes there is um it'scalled I forgot what it was
called I saw this very quicklythough but this also comes up
like inconclusive there are somepromising leads I guess it's
called the Lost Colony DNA orproject someone lost colony
project Roanoke project um Ididn't I only saw that at like
(53:47):
the very end I honestly foundout about it today so I couldn't
really research it too much butthere is something with that and
I think they're looking again myquick quick scrolling of it I
didn't see that anyonedefinitively said yes we are
linked to that.
SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
And even if like a little bit showed up that would
be enough that well I wouldn'tsay that doesn't necessarily
mean the whole tribe or thewhole colony was absorbed just
the occasional fluke crosspollination for lack of a better
term doesn't mean the entirecolony was absorbed.
SPEAKER_00 (54:20):
That's true.
We could have just had twopeople that did their own little
Romeo Juliet thing.
Who knows?
It doesn't mean completeabsorption right so yeah who
really knows I don't I find thisinteresting and I wanted to do
this in lieu of doing a pilgrimone is since it is November.
Oh yeah so Thanksgiving will beright around the corner here.
And so I find this a little morefitting as a Thanksgiving story.
(54:43):
It shows kind of the true natureof everything and then yes it
was what oh my gosh when did weget here in Janestown 1607?
That sounds right and uh thatwent smoothly as well.
So okay happy Thanksgiving in acouple weeks I don't know when
I'm gonna throw this but yeshappy early Thanksgiving anyway
(55:06):
remember to follow us onInstagram at borrowed bones
podcast also rating andreviewing us really helps us a
lot.
We did just get our firstnegative review but it was like
weirdly like not that bad.
It was that we made too manyjokes and it's like oh that's
it's I'll take that yeah I'm Ican never talk about anything
(55:30):
too seriously because that'slike my nervous tick is to joke
and laugh and giggle and it canbe annoying to some I've had
people in my face say I'm tiredof your giggle and I just
giggled because it made meuncomfortable and I went okay
and just walked away like I Ican't change it.
It is who I am and if you we arenot for everyone but yes I
(55:54):
appreciated it because it reallywasn't that bad.
So if that's the worst it gets Ifeel pretty good about it.
I feel like we're finally madeit by having a negative comment
under our belt.
So indeed thank you for thatyeah follow rate review us no
press is bad press see us onInstagram maybe the new vine
that's coming out we'll see Ihope that new vine app comes out
(56:17):
that would be fun I would lovethat yes till next time bye
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