September 16, 2025 • 55 mins
The Brothers Grimm bathed in wine, lived in castles, and had doves nesting under their beds. Their real lives were as fantastical as the fairy tales they collected. Embark on this three-part story about Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, with our first guest, my twin sister, Samantha!
Sources:
"The Brothers Grimm: A Biography", by Ann Schmiesing,
Schmiesing, Ann. The Brothers Grimm: A Biography. Yale University Press, 2024.
"The Brothers Grimm: Two Lives, One Legacy", Donald R. Hettinga,
Hettinga, Donald R. The Brothers Grimm: Two Lives, One Legacy. Clarion Books, 2001.
Britannica.com, Biography.com , Brothers Grimm: The Real Story of Germany's Story Tellers , GermanyInsider.com.
E-Mail the show at BorrowedBonesPodcast@proton.me
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone.
I'm Sarah and I'm Sam andyou're listening to Borrowed
Bones, a podcast about fucked up, interesting and toxic families
.
We have our first ever guest,my twin, samantha.
Yay, hi everyone.
The reason we have Samantha andnot Cole is because we are
(00:22):
talking about the Brothers Grimm.
Ooh, they're more interestingthan I realize.
That's why it took me likeeight months to fucking do this.
That's true.
She's been telling me for likea year that we were going to do
this one together and now it isSeptember of 2025.
I think it was last Christmas.
I told you about it.
Yeah, it's almost a year.
I've just been waiting.
I told all my friends like sixmonths ago, so I stopped talking
(00:45):
about it.
I'm sorry they never brought itup.
So it's fine, sam's friends,here we are and she's roped into
a three-parter.
Yep, yep, it's going to begreat.
I wanted to know why thesebrothers became obsessed with
collecting fairy tales and Ialso wanted to know a little bit
about their actual family.
Like, what else is there aboutthem?
(01:07):
Who are the Grimm's?
Who could foster these two boys, these two brothers, to be so
obsessed with fairy tales?
I honestly thought it wasn'teven a real family.
I just thought that's what theycalled the fairy tales.
I didn't know.
There was an actual brothersbehind the brothers Grimm.
Yeah, I've noticed a lot ofpeople think the same thing.
They just thought it was afairy tale itself.
(01:29):
But they're real, they reallyexisted and let's talk about
them.
All right, let's go.
Jacob Grimm was born January 4th1785.
To parents Philip and DorotheaGrimm.
And then, just one year later,wilhelm Grimm was born in
(01:50):
February of 1786.
So these boys are 13 monthsapart.
So we've got Jacob and Wilhelm.
Jacob and Wilhelm, okay, andtheir parents, philip and
Dorothea.
They did have a son that wasborn first, before Jacob, but he
passed away at just threemonths old.
Yeah, that's sad.
In total, dorothea would birthnine children and six would
(02:14):
survive to adulthood.
Wow, yeah, wow, I guess that'sa sign of the times.
Yes, that happened a lot thelate 1700s, early 1800s.
Yeah, jacob and wilhelm willhave four younger siblings.
Okay, the younger siblings werecarl, ferdinand, ludwig, and
then their youngest sibling wassister charlotte, who went by
(02:37):
lottie.
Oh, I love that.
I thought that was cute.
What's that from yellow jackets?
That's a character in a movie,is it?
I don't know.
I mean it could be YellowJackets, but I thought it was
like there was another moviewith Lottie A Little Princess.
Is it A Little Princess?
Isn't there a little orphangirl named Lottie?
I don't know, maybe the onethat Look it up.
(02:58):
You have to look sense.
Yeah, okay, you found it, I did.
It is from A Little Princess, aLittle Princess, and Lottie is a
friend of Sarah in the seminary.
She's described as someone wholooks childish and chubby.
(03:20):
She's the little crybaby girlthat cried on the floor because
she wanted her mom.
Yes, and then sarah would helpher.
So was she the one that wouldthrow fits or that?
Okay, she would throw fits.
Yeah, I want my mom.
I want my mom.
I want my mom.
Exactly.
How did I forget that?
I don't know sarah's bestfriend.
Anyway, I was named after sarahfrom the labyrinth, not Sarah
(03:41):
from A Little Princess.
Yeah, thanks.
So facts Don't care.
Moving on, okay, philip Grimmworked as a lawyer and was also
the town clerk of Hanau.
That's the city they lived in,and Hanau was in Hesse or Hessen
Castle.
What country is this?
(04:02):
This is where it gets a littletough.
Okay, this is Germany, Ifigured.
And Germany was not unified atthis time.
It's when there was Prussia andthen the other parts of Germany
were kingdoms of Germany,gotcha.
So we're in kingdoms.
Each kingdom has its own ruler.
It's very all over the place.
We need to know all this tounderstand the Grimm's In 1785,
(04:24):
to understand the Grimm's In1785, a new ruler took over,
causing the Grimm's to move intoa new house, because whenever
the powers that be exchangedhands, philip's job changed
because he worked for thegovernment.
Okay, this wasn't a bad switch.
The new house was a step up forthe Grimm's.
They were now living acomfortable, upper-middle-class
life.
This is a fun life Like.
(04:46):
Their childhood is so fairytaleit doesn't feel real.
This is why people don't thinkthey're real.
They had two servants.
One was the nursery maid whowould tell them stories and
sneak them little treats ofbread and cheese.
Then the other servant helpedout mom with household chores
and all that stuff.
Servant helped out mom withhousehold chores and all that
(05:06):
stuff.
Once a week there was a washerwoman that would come and wash
their clothes in big steamingtubs out in the courtyard and
she would often give them breadwith some drops of brandy on
them.
It's like a treat.
Oh man, what a good nanny.
I know she was just the washerwoman.
Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, brandywas everywhere.
I don't know if Brandy was athing back then.
(05:28):
Give it to your kids Now.
The Grimm's new house was largeand up to date on all of the
latest trends.
Their drawing room hadwallpaper which was new at the
time, and it was dyed a forestgreen with pictures of huntsmen
on them, and the brothers wouldstare at this wall, imagining
what adventures these huntersare on.
Dorothea could also be foundrelaxing upstairs.
(05:52):
She'd be knitting or sewing.
There was also a bathtubupstairs where their mom would
bathe them, often throwing asplash of wine into the
bathwater.
Wow, jacob said the watersmelled sweet, but it burned his
eyes.
Oh sure, yeah was.
Were bathtubs a thing or isthat like a state-of-the-art
type of?
They were bad like pot, likenot pots, but like tubs that
(06:16):
just sat in the middle of theroom just filled with hot water.
Yeah, and they just fill it.
I had to know why there waswine in this bathtub.
I was like why Did you do that?
What does that mean?
It was thought that wine orvinegar would help to keep the
plague away during the medievaltimes.
So it's a layover from that.
Yeah, so Dorothea was beingsmart.
(06:36):
She was, as the Grimm's lived inHanau.
They were surrounded by familyfrom both sides, both their mom
and dad's families.
Jacob and Wilhelm would oftenvisit their father's oldest
sister, aunt Schlemmer.
What's her last name?
Schlemmer?
These are German people.
That's her name, aunt SchlemmerStop.
Her first name, I forgot, waslike Julianne Charlotte, but
(06:58):
Aunt Schlemmer Schlemmer.
They would spend more time ather house than at their own home
.
Aunt Schlemmer was the one whotaught Jacob how to read and she
grew very close to the Grimm's.
She was Philip's oldest siblingand she was really close to her
brother, philip and the Grimm'sbecause she was a widow.
So she ends up moving in withthe Grimm's Grimm's Now.
(07:29):
Their father applied for aposition as a district
magistrate at the end of 1790and was offered the position in
1791.
So the Grimm's move again, butthey moved to a different city
called Steinau.
That was a really good job.
I practiced, did you practice?
I practiced Because you saw meget ready for it.
I am shocked at how good thatpronunciation was.
I deserve a drink.
I believe it.
I believe that's what it'scalled.
(07:50):
You can even Google it.
I will not.
I'll trust you.
Yeah, I don't have to.
I trust it.
And at this time in 1791, jacobwas six years old and Wilhelm
was five.
Lottie has not been born yet,so we're still kind of growing
the family.
And the other city, hanau, was abit more isolated from the
(08:11):
outside world.
So when they moved to Shainauthey were surprised at the
activity.
It was a smaller city but itwas on the Royal Road, so there
was a lot of passing throughforeigners, a bunch of inns and
places for travelers to eat ordrink.
They also really loved theirnew spacious 16th century
magistrate's house.
(08:31):
It was a castle.
They lived in a fucking castlethat was 200 years old already,
in 1791.
What?
Yeah, it was the classic stonethick walls with those turrets,
and the boys would spy out ofthem and watch everything that
was going on.
There was a lot of hustle andbustle.
Oh man, doesn't that sound likefairy tale?
(08:53):
It does.
They're bathing in wine andjust having some brandy with
toast, yeah, and then I justlive in a castle.
Yeah, they have no idea.
No, servants and coachmen werealways coming and going and they
would often be playful with theboys.
They had storks make nestsnearby.
Okay, yep, that's real.
(09:15):
Okay, I don't believe this.
I know it's weird.
There were also carvings ofdevils and figures on the ends
of rafters.
They had that classic likearchitecture Sounds a little
gothic maybe.
There was also even a storyabout the previous magistrate
haunting the castle, like just alittle kid's dream.
(09:36):
Right, we thought our house washaunted growing up and we had a
lot of fun with that.
We did.
I think it is haunted.
It was a good time.
It was a scary time but it wasa good time.
I know it was kind of scary butit was fun.
There wasn't many a night Islept by myself.
No, no, I would just crawl intoyour room on the floor.
Yeah, you'd wake up andsurprise.
(09:58):
I did that with you a few timesmy sister's on the floor.
You had a creepy, had it inyour bedroom and we were always
just guessed on who it was.
Really, yes, you don't rememberthat photo.
That's why I wouldn't sleep inyour room, because that photo
was there.
No, I don't.
It was like original to thehouse.
You're such a weirdo I don'tremember the photo.
But I really hated that room somuch I really was uncomfortable
(10:21):
, I couldn't sleep and then Ihad to jump off of the bed like
a foot away from the bed becauseI was terrified of something
grabbing me from under the bed.
I remember when you were thatscared.
I was that scared, the sixthsense, okay, that girl that
grabbed his ankle, she did it.
She killed me for the rest ofmy life.
I'm scared of under beds now,even now.
(10:41):
But you play her so wellBecause you used to pretend to
be her too.
Yes, I did.
She terrified me so much.
You did really great at playingher.
Yeah, I did a lot of goodthings.
Yeah, yeah, anyway, well,anyway, the boys haven't even
left to go to the city yet.
This is just stuff that happensaround the castle, okay, so when
(11:04):
they do go into town, they getto watch potters working with
their clay tanners, with theirhides, and there's even a
mention of a goose girl drivingher flock.
Are you fucking kidding me,goose girl?
Yeah, I don't.
I had no idea.
That was even an occupation.
Well, I mean, someone has tomove the geese, right?
(11:25):
I guess they do.
I mean again, 1700s.
Yeah, what are you going to do?
Someone's got to do it, andLottie was born during this time
as well.
So now we have all of theGrimm's, okay, while they were
(11:50):
in Shainau, jacob and Wilhelm,my southerness.
I don't have a lot of it left,but it wants to come out.
When I say Wilhelm, I want tosay Wilhelm.
Me too.
I can't, it's going to happen.
It's either Wilhelm or it'slike Wilhelm Wilhelm.
That's how I want to say itWilhelm Wilhelm.
Maybe, if I do it thetraditional way, with a V sound,
jakob and Wilhelm.
Oh good, they began seeing aschool master and having private
tutoring.
They were learning the basicsreading, writing, arithmetic,
(12:10):
all that.
They were also learning how toplay the violin and dance and
speak french.
Philip wanted his sons to beable to mingle with the elites,
and it's really cute, becausethe boys were often seen walking
hand in hand on their way totheir lessons.
Oh, my god right, no one talksabout this part of him or them.
I had to read so many books forthis because there's no
(12:32):
documentaries or podcasts thatlike talk about this side of
them.
Right, I had to read books forthis, sam.
Well, I didn't even know theywere real until they're real
started.
So, yeah, and then, while theywere in steinau, they also began
to have an appreciation for thelocal customs.
They entered the city wearingtheir shoulder length, hair just
(12:55):
down and loose, but the stylein steinau was to wear in a
ponytail.
So they soon followed suit.
And with other things theystarted to follow suit with as
well, and this is where theystarted to have their love for
their own culture and traditions.
They didn't really know what todo with it yet, but the spark
is there.
(13:16):
A few years after they moved, in1793, the winds of change were
swirling around Europe.
The French revolted, leading tothe beheading of their king,
king Louis XVI, and thathappened in January of 1793.
Whenever there was trouble inFrance, that meant trouble in
(13:38):
Germany, because they are soclose together.
There's quite the ripple effectthat happens, and the kingdoms
throughout all of German, thekingdoms that were throughout
all of the German lands mytongue just didn't want to move
All of the rulers of each of thegerman kingdoms were getting
nervous because they just sawfrance behead their king and
(14:00):
they're like whoa, let's just bechill, let's be chill, let's be
chill.
Yeah, but because no one's everchill, soldiers started coming
in and out of steinau, goingback and forth on the royal road
the french soldiers, thehessian soldiers, um, dutch,
prussian, austrian.
So you have, like your allies ofgermany, being like no, france,
don't come over here, like theFrench soldiers, the Hessian
soldiers Dutch, prussian,austrian.
So you have like your allies ofGermany being like, no, france,
(14:20):
don't come over here, likedon't do that over here.
Then you have French being likewe revolted, now we'll take
over you.
I don't really understand it.
All you need to know is that alot is happening.
Ok, there were a thousandHessian soldiers that marched
through Steinau in one day alone, and Steinau only has like
1,400 people that live there atthis time.
(14:41):
So to have a thousand people inone day come through, that's a
lot.
And from November of 1793 tothe end of 1795, almost 490,000
troops total passed throughSteinau.
Wow, yes, and the boys?
They liked watching thesoldiers march, but they also
(15:02):
didn't really like the way theforeign soldiers did things.
Sure, like the Dutch and theAustrians, they typically got
drunk and unruly.
They wanted to take food, drink, livestock, they just took
whatever they wanted.
And it caused a lot of localsto file complaints, which then
made a lot of work for their dadbecause as the magistrate he
dealt with the small scale likedrunken, disorderly, that kind
(15:26):
of stuff.
But despite all of this, theGrimm's were able to live a
pretty normal and decent lifethere.
They just kind of stayed out ofthe way, when Philip was home
he would say morning prayers andhe would engage in conversation
with his children during dinnertime, which was he was like a
nice dad like, especially forthe time he wanted to be with
his kids.
He would even take one or twokids with him into town whenever
(15:49):
he needed to go for likebusiness or something.
Even if he went to a differenttown, he'd take a kid with him.
He also really loved doting onhis baby girl, lottie, lottie,
yeah.
And then Dorothea even wrote apoem to Philip once and she
referred to him as a noble, warmfriend with whom my heart is
eternally united.
Oh, isn't that cute the waythey wrote back then and just
(16:13):
spoke in general.
I know Around Christmastime in1795, philip became ill with
pneumonia.
No, and Dorothea was stillmourning the loss of their
youngest child, george, whopassed away at eight months old.
So it fell upon Jacob to becomeresponsible for sending letters
(16:33):
out to his grandfather updatinghim about Philip's health.
Jacob was 10 years old.
Wow, yeah, mom was like I can'thandle this, it's too much.
Yeah, jacob, you got to do it,you're old enough.
There was one point where Jacobthought that his dad was doing
better.
His appetite was coming backand it looked pretty promising.
(16:53):
He wrote a letter to hisgrandfather, zimmer, back in
Hanau, that dad's doing better.
Will you please send some breadfrom the baker that he likes?
But once the bread arrived, itwas too late.
I know Philip passed away.
Oh, yeah, he passed away inJanuary of 1796, just days after
Jacob's 11th birthday.
(17:15):
Oh, isn't it sad.
That is so sad.
And Philip was only 44.
Wow, yeah, I mean that wasprobably.
That's young, even for backthen?
Are you sure?
Yes, okay, because usually onceyou make it past infancy, you
can live.
Yeah, the reason why theaverage lifespan is so short is
(17:35):
because of all the infant deaths.
But once you're past a year ortwo, you're pretty much the same
as you and I, golden.
Yeah, I mean you're not goingto reach like 90, but you know
70s, it's pretty normal, okay,poor Jacob.
Now he's the man of the house.
Yep, he's the man of the house.
Being 11 years old, wilhelm isbarely 10.
Yep, yep.
(18:01):
After Philip's death, the familyquickly fell on hard times.
They could not handle itfinancially.
It really caught up with themfast.
As the magistrate, philipreceived a lot of benefits, like
in-kind rent, so he didn't haveto pay for his house.
He had the right to cultivatecertain tracts of land in the
district.
He also was given householdstaff, and then he also had a
salary on top of those things.
All of that's gone Right.
(18:23):
So I'm assuming they can't stayin the magistrate castle?
Nope, nope.
Dorothea was only 40 at thistime and, with her six children,
they really started to see thedecline in standard of living
and, like you said, within weeksthey had to vacate the house to
make way for philip's successor.
Yeah, yeah, so that sucked.
(18:44):
What's lottie gonna do?
She's just a baby right now.
Right, they first moved nextdoor to a small, like run down
house with a view of themagistrate's house, but that was
just a little too painful forthem, right, that's horrible.
Yeah, that's all they had,though, like in a quick notice,
that's all they could do.
Watch out the window.
(19:04):
Your hopes and dreams, yeah,everything you once had given to
someone else.
I hate that.
Okay, dorothea did receive alittle pension, though after
Philip's death.
It was 100 Frankfurt guilders,which was only one sixteenth of
their previous income.
So sharp decline.
Yeah, but no matter what, theywere united.
(19:28):
Their aunt Schlemmer was stillwith them and they decided to
scrape up enough together sothat way they could buy an upper
floor of a house at theopposite side of the town center
.
Just like, let's get out ofhere.
We found a space.
The house included a barn and asmall garden.
Sadly though, only 11 monthsafter Philip's death, his sister
(19:53):
, aunt Schlemmer, would also dieat the age of 61.
Oh man, I'm not sure how shedied.
Yeah, yeah, just not even ayear later.
Wow, so Dorothy is now alone,alone with her kids.
Jacob took his aunt's death veryhard.
They were very close.
Jacob was her favorite and sheshowed it it was understood.
(20:13):
She was actually kind of meanto the other kids.
She's like, get out of here,jacob's mine.
It was said that Jacob looked alot like his grandfather on his
dad's side.
So her dad, okay, that helooked a lot like his paternal
grandfather.
So that's the idea of why theyclung together so well.
But Jacob was really smart too,and Aunt Schlemmer was really
(20:33):
smart, and from the stories Iread, I don't think she gave a
fuck about dumb kids.
She's like I don't have timefor this, you're stupid.
Jacob was smart, so he made thecut.
Yeah, oh, I really think that'show it went.
I understand.
I feel that.
Yeah, yeah, I feel it.
Well, the Grimms quickly fellinto a new normal.
(20:54):
They a bench in front of thegarden hut, either reading,
knitting or gazing at herchildren as they played.
There are also some churchbells that would chime in the
distance every hour, like, eventhough they're kind of broke now
, right, they still have fairytale life.
Their life sucks, but itdoesn't.
I know.
It's still like a beautifullife.
Still a beautiful life.
That's gorgeous.
(21:15):
I know, I forgot about thispart.
Inside their house they keptbirds.
They had blackbirds andlunettes.
I didn't look up how topronounce that, I don't know.
I don't really like birds.
They kept the blackbirds andlunettes in cages.
You know this.
They attack me.
Okay, I know, I do know this.
Yes, I do know that.
But what I thought was weird?
(21:36):
So these birds are in cagesnormal but they have two doves
that would nest under a bedStrange.
They just have wild animalsliving in their home.
Yep, under the bed.
Fairytale shit Is that creepygirl from the Sixth Sense is
supposed to be?
It's birds?
Oh, my God, what if she's likestabbing the doves like a hex?
Okay, sorry, I didn't go thatfar in my head.
(21:59):
I've been reading about theGrimm's for a long time.
It's dark in here.
In 1798, so two and a half yearsafter their dad dies it was
decided that Jacob and Wilhelmwould attend high school in
Kassel.
So they're going back to wherethey came from, that's where
(22:20):
their grandfather Zimmer is, andAunt Zimmer.
Her name is Henriette orHenrietta, I don't know how to
pronounce it.
It ends with an E.
Yeah, it's German, it'sprobably Henrietta.
I'm going to say Henrietta,yeah, yeah.
Now, aunt Henrietta was alady-in-waiting for a countess
(22:42):
and she said that the boys couldcome live in the castle with
her and attend school in Castle.
Right, okay, so CastleC-A-S-T-L-E.
Living in Castle K-A-S-S-E-L.
Okay, yes, okay, yes,understood.
In late September, 13-year-oldJacob and 12-year-old Wilhelm
(23:03):
left from Shainau back to Castleand the rest of the family
stayed.
Stayed in Shainau, yes, so justthe boys, just the boys.
Now the name of this palace.
I'm going to try and say it'svery difficult, I just like it.
Okay, they arrived at SchlossWilhelmschlü, shut up, schloss
(23:26):
Wilhelmschlü.
That was so good For someonewho doesn't know German.
We're doing great.
It sounds good to me.
If anyone's from Germanylistening to this, just let us
know.
Or if anyone speaks fluentGerman.
Let us know if she's totallybotching these names or if she's
actually doing a really goodjob, because I think it sounds
(23:48):
fantastic.
I think it sounds pretty goodtoo, I think.
So that was great.
So again, they're living inanother castle I'm not going to
say the name.
Again, you did your duediligence and they're living
with their aunt, henriettaZimmer.
Okay, jacob and Wilhelm shared aroom and they really loved
their new accommodations.
It was gorgeous, beautiful,everything.
(24:09):
Basically, all castles haveSchool.
On the other hand, even thoughthey enjoyed their living
arrangements, they did notreally enjoy going to school.
They liked receiving education,they were great on that, but
they just did not fit insocially at this school.
Okay, they were surrounded bynoble families and they were not
noble.
They're kind of at the bestupper middle class.
(24:30):
But now they fell hard andthey're not anymore.
The teachers would even speakdown to them in a different
German dialect.
They would not speak highGerman to them.
Ooh, there's different dialects, wow, and that showed how they
thought of you.
Okay, and the teachers wouldtalk down to them.
Okay, and so Jacob and Wilhelmfelt like they were just these
(24:50):
country bumpkins trying to makeit out in the city.
They were like, oh, we don'tfit in here.
Yeah, to make it out in thecity.
They were like, oh, we don'tfit in here, yeah.
They were also a little behindwhen they entered school because
of just the living where theywere, you know.
But Jacob was able to test wellenough to make it into the
lowest classes to prep him foruniversity.
Wilhelm didn't make it, oh no.
(25:13):
So he had to do privatetutoring for a year before he
was admitted in, but eventuallyhe made it.
Okay, a little bit of astruggle, but they got there.
Once they were in, they movedquickly, excelled and did great
through school.
They just didn't get along wellwith people.
They didn't like anyone Did.
They talk to each other prettymuch the whole time.
They had a very heavy workload.
(25:34):
Before school they would spendabout four to five hours being
tutored in Latin and French andthen they would spend six hours
a day at school.
So 11 hours of schoolwork everyday.
And during this time the boysdid grow very close.
They were discouraged frommaking friends by their
grandfather and their mom,because Dorothea said, and I
(25:57):
quote, to not look for companyof other boys, it's too
distracting.
Okay, the Grimm's are puttingall of their eggs into Jacob and
Wilhelm's baskets.
All the money that they had wasgiven to them for the school.
They had to pull some stringsand connections, and everything
too, because these boys probablyshouldn't have been admitted
(26:17):
into the school.
But mom and Aunt Zimmer knewthe right people, but they were
like this is our one shot, youcan't fuck it up.
Jacob and Wilhelm did growhomesick, though, and they would
find certain distractions tohelp stay in good spirits.
They would catch butterfliesand collect stones.
When they did have money, theywould go to the used bookstores
and buy poetry and fictionnovels, so just always keeping
(26:40):
their minds busy.
In 1802, jacob was admitted intothe University of Marburg.
The school was what I was goingto say.
Where is that?
It was 30 miles away, just inGermany.
Yeah, okay, 30 miles away fromCastle and 30 miles away from
Wilhelm.
Oh no, I can't do this, sorry,it's just a vocal stim.
(27:08):
I do all the time, and thiswould be the first time that the
boys were separated, becauseWilhelm still had one more year
of school to finish.
He is a year younger than Jacob.
Yeah, it's going to happen,right, but that's devastating.
I remember when they split us upand put us in a different class
as I just completely wentinward and stopped being social
(27:30):
and didn't know what to do.
Yeah, they say studies haveshown not to split up twins when
you go to school.
Because Samantha and Istruggled hard.
Yeah, that was really hard.
I still struggle to this daybecause of that.
Yeah, I remember staringbecause our kindergarten
classrooms were across the hallfrom each other, so if the doors
were open I could see you Right.
And I remember just staring andlongingly wanting to go over
(27:52):
there and my teacher would belike Sarah, get over here.
And I'd be like, no, I hated mykindergarten teacher, I hated
her.
She probably remembers me, notin a good way.
And then by third grade itbecame such an issue.
They did put us together, yes,but then we were split up again
in high school.
No, it was fourth grade.
We didn't have the same fourthgrade class, did we?
Oh, yeah, we were split upagain.
(28:13):
We were split up after thirdgrade and sixth grade.
We had different classes too,because my fourth grade teacher
didn't like me either.
That was Miss Palmer.
I had Miss Palmer, okay.
So we had the same fourth grade.
So we had the same fourth grade, okay, but were you taken out
of Miss Palmer's class with adifferent fourth grade teacher
Because you guys didn't getalong.
No, okay, just wondering.
(28:33):
I did not get along with thatteacher and she just let me walk
out whenever I felt angry.
Yeah, so, anyway, don't splitup your twins.
Don't split up your twins.
If you have twins, don't splitthem up.
They'll develop much better.
Yes, and now we're just awkward.
Raise a sunshine.
Don't know how to talk topeople.
No, no, no, it's okay.
Yeah, we found partners thatare codependent.
(28:57):
It's alright, it's fine.
I do view us outliving ourpartners, though, and living
together at the end and justbeing spinsters.
Same.
Sorry, cole and Carrie, it'sfine, that's how it's going to
be.
Hayley will move in too.
She will.
Hayley's our older sister, oneof us.
One of us.
(29:20):
That wasn't planned.
Okay, we have to focus, focus.
Sorry, god damn it.
Okay, I don't know where I'm at, 30 miles away.
College yeah, jacob was not veryimpressed in his first year of
university.
He was quickly becoming boredwith his professors.
He was like all they do is makeus memorize and recite.
(29:40):
They're not even like invokingnew ideas or having
conversations.
He's like this is boring.
Jacob went into studying lawlike his father.
He felt that was the mostpragmatic thing to do for his
family.
He was given the nickname ofthe old man because of how
serious he took his studies.
He was locked in, straight andnarrow Locked in.
(30:01):
Jacob was very lonely at school, though, and he wrote to
Wilhelm and he said I'd ratherbe in a wooden stall in a barn
with friends than all alone inthis beautiful scene.
Oh my gosh, they have like loveletters to each other.
That's cute and weird.
It's kind of weird, I'll behonest.
(30:22):
Like I wouldn't write lettersto you like that.
No, I'd be like I miss you, Ihave FOMO, I don't know.
Like what are you doing?
What's up Now?
Around this time in the fall of1802, there was a conspiracy
theory going around that theworld was going to end due to
all the wickedness Ooh Rawr.
And Jacob believed it.
(30:43):
He was like oh shit.
And he wrote a letter to hisfriend Paul stating that he
hoped to receive one more letterfrom him before.
They never saw each other again, and Paul was back in Castle,
like 30 miles away, and that's abig difference at that time.
So Paul had no idea what he wastalking about, because that
rumor didn't reach Castle.
So Paul was like hey, you'renot going to like off yourself,
(31:06):
are you?
So it sounds like a suicidenote, yeah.
And Paul was like you good, yougood.
And then Jacob was like, oh yep,the world didn't end, I guess A
month later, once the lettersgot back.
Pretty much, I just thoughtthat was really funny.
That is kind of interesting.
Yeah, so conspiracy theoriesabout the world ending have been
Forever, a forever thing.
(31:26):
Mm, hmm, ok, forever, yep, lovethat, and I'm surprised that
Jacob fell for it, honestly.
But I guess I don't know.
I mean, if there's no othertime to fall for it, it would be
the 1700s.
It does make sense, 1800s,especially with, like, the
Napoleonic Wars going on andeverything, and you just see
these French soldiers and allthis stuff.
Yeah, yeah, well, the world didnot end and Wilhelm was back in
(31:52):
castle and he was dealing withhis own issues with isolation,
castle, and he was dealing withhis own issues with isolation.
Shortly after jacob left,wilhelm suffered from an asthma
attack and then scarlet fever,oh yeah.
And wilhelm was quarantined forsix weeks and their friend paul
would visit wilhelm and writeletters for him, because back
(32:12):
then, when you're resting, youweren't allowed to read or write
, which I thought that wasinteresting.
But you could draw what theywanted you to rest your mind as
well as your body, but you coulddraw.
But you can draw.
I guess that's a different partof the brain.
They don't know what they'retalking about.
(32:37):
They just thought rest.
Drawing isn't real work.
I'm an artist.
I'm an artist.
Okay.
Once Wilhelm was better, hefocused on school and did well
in his studies and eventually,after the year, he was then
admitted to the University ofMarburg and him and Jacob were
reunited after one year apart,thank God, and Wilhelm was also
(32:59):
studying law.
They found out that theirfavorite professor was Frederick
Carl von Savini we will callhim Savini Okay, I like that.
And he was like an avant-gardeprofessor.
He would take in the papers orthe essays that the students
wrote and he would return themwith notes and comments and
(33:21):
thoughts.
That was different for thattime.
Yeah, and Jacob and Wilhelm arelike, wow, this guy actually
wants to engage with us and havea dialogue and talk about the
work we're doing.
And by the following year of1803, savini and the Grimm
brothers were actual friends andno longer just student and
professor.
The boys would go over to hishouse and discuss books.
(33:44):
Savini showed them his libraryand within that library there
was a book of German songs thatcaught Jacob's eye it's just
good to note because it's kindof where everything starts.
Yeah, and Savini was the onethat steered them towards
studying their own heritage,saying that, yeah, greek and
Roman are great we got to knowabout that but German heritage
(34:06):
is just as important, and so heput that seed in there.
Savini also introduced them tothe new generation of writers
called the Romantics, andRomanticism was a new way of
writing, and they would writeabout common people, nature,
write about like shepherds andshoemakers and washerwomen and
(34:27):
that kind of stuff.
That was a new thing for thistime.
Okay, so we're seeing thepieces kind of forming which is
like their whole life has likebeen this romanticized thing.
Now they have everythingthey've done.
Yeah, wine in the bath no, no,I love the wine in the bath.
I know I can't get over it.
I want to try that.
Hope you don't get the plague.
You know what.
(34:48):
I'm sure that's next on thelist of what's coming back.
So get your wine, your vinegar,put it in the tub.
The brothers would becomelifelong friends with Savini.
They stayed friends forever,shortly after their hanging out.
In 1803, professor Savini had togo to Paris and do like
professor shit.
He was researching and doingthings.
(35:11):
Yeah, Some professor shit.
Yeah, researching and doingthings.
Yeah, professor, some professorshit.
Yeah, yeah, cool.
The brothers were a littlebummed by it.
They're like ah, everybody youknow.
But in 1804 savini wrote tojacob asking him to come and
help him in paris to do research.
He said he can't really readthat well anymore.
His eyes were kind of going outon him.
So jacob enthusiasticallyaccepted the offer and moved to
(35:31):
paris, separating from wilhelmfor the second time.
Wow, jacob was 19 and wilhelm's18.
Now, okay, jacob had a bit of aculture shock when he arrived
in paris.
It was a lot more beautifulthan he thought it would be, but
it was also a lot moreexpensive.
He did enjoy sharing a roomwith a professor and spending
time with him.
(35:52):
He liked all of the arts andeverything he saw.
He just loved it.
But it was just a lot for him.
The second separation seemed tostrengthen the bond between
Wilhelm and Jacob, and in Julyof 1805, jacob wrote a letter to
Wilhelm stating they must neverbe apart and any separation
(36:13):
could make him die of grief.
That seems really too much.
It's a lot, yes, yes.
And then Wilhelm responds.
Wilhelm responds with no onehas loved me as much as you.
My love for you is just asheartfelt.
Wow, there's more Whoa, yeah.
(36:35):
So another letter from Jacob toWilhelm, referring to their
future careers, what they can doin the future, for how to work
together.
Jacob says should want one of usto go somewhere else, the other
would need to resign at once,and we are so accustomed to each
(36:56):
other's companionship thatseparation could distress me to
death.
How dramatic are these two boysabout each other.
Yeah, they're really intense,they are intense.
And then jacob goes on to saywhich I vibed with this part,
okay, okay, okay.
He said we will presumably atlast live quite withdrawn and
isolated, for we will not havemany friends and I do not enjoy
(37:20):
acquaintances.
We shall want to work with eachother quite collaboratively and
to cut off all other affairs.
I wouldn't cut off all otheraffairs, but I do like the same,
like bro, same.
I don't really likeacquaintances, like get out of
here, can I just live with you?
I'm all set, so like there arecertain moments where I get it,
but then other times I'm like ohJesus, guys, come on, come on,
(37:42):
boys, get it together, let's getit together.
While in Paris, jacob's job wasto read old manuscripts and
compare different versions tosee which ones were the most
accurate.
While doing this, jacob lookedup the original manuscript of
the book of German songs that hesaw in Savini's library.
It's still on his mind, that'sall.
(38:05):
There's nothing really thatcomes with these German songs,
it's just his gateway into theGerman culture and folksiness,
gotcha.
After 10 months apart, wilhelmand Jacob were reunited once
more Together.
They journeyed back to Kasselto be with their family, all
right, and this would be thefirst time the whole family has
(38:25):
been together in seven years.
Wow, yes, wilhelm began lookingfor work and studying for his
finals, while Jacob decided toforego his finals, since he had
really good recommendations, andinstead went in search for a
government position as like alawyer or secretary.
Okay, there were no jobs to befound, though.
(38:47):
Nothing was available, and thefamily went without income for a
few months, aside from thatsmall little pension that
dorothea gets, but no one'sbringing in any extra income.
Yeah, in january of 1806,though, jacob did become a clerk
in the hessian war office.
So german has.
Yeah, it wasn't a greatlucrative job, but it was
(39:10):
something.
But there was a bigger issue.
The fact that there was a needfor a Hessian war office, yeah,
meant that there was some shitgoing down.
Right, napoleon has beenconquering left and right.
He's been on some shit.
What a time to be alive inEurope at that time.
And I never thought about theintersection of Napoleon and the
(39:33):
Grimms Right or theintersection of Napoleon and
literally any other historicalAmerica.
Like, get your hands out ofhere, why?
Like everywhere, yeah, he didit all.
He did it all.
So we're going to kind ofsidetrack a little bit to when
the boys were younger and shapedby war, so like Napoleon and
(39:53):
conquering europe.
Okay, when the brothers wereyounger, in steinau and steinau
napoleon I went loose on mygerman accent there.
I had to bring it back.
She straightened right up andsaid steinau, just like that.
I feel like germans would havelike a straighter back than
americans, though back.
Hey, there's five germans thatlisten to us, tell us, let us
know.
Just like that, I feel likeGermans would have like a
(40:14):
straighter back than Americans,though.
Hey, there's five Germans thatlisten to us, tell us, let us
know.
Yeah, I'm sorry, is that ayodel?
What are you doing?
I don't know, I was laughing.
Well, while the brothers wereyounger, napoleon took control
(40:35):
of the French army and wasgradually seizing sections of
Europe and the Mediterranean.
Back in 1804, right before Jacobleft for Paris, napoleon was
dissolving the French Republicand he crowned himself emperor
of all of France's lands.
And then this I just thoughtwas interesting to think of
Jacob having to avoid Napoleon.
In 1805, when Jacob wasreturning home from Paris, he
needed to alter his route toavoid Napoleon's army.
(40:56):
He was like, oh shit, I'm inthe way.
Yeah, gotta use another road,yeah.
And then, in 1806, officially,the Holy Roman Empire came to an
end, which I'm not even goingto dip into, okay, okay, it's
just anyone who knows history.
This is what's going on, cool.
And November 1st of 1806,french soldiers marched into
(41:17):
castle and French officials tookover the government.
Okay, so, wow, french are in.
Some people fled at this time,but the Grimms stayed put.
Napoleon combined the kingdomof Hesse with nearby kingdoms
and named it the kingdom ofWestphalia.
Huh, okay.
(41:37):
And Napoleon placed his youngerbrother, jerome Bonaparte, on
the throne and foreigners filledthe castle and new customs
arose overnight.
And then the Hessean war officewas no longer needed because
French took over and Jacob foundhimself without a job yet again
.
Meanwhile, wilhelm passed hisfinals, but he still could not
(42:01):
find work either.
So, once again, both of themwithout income, no income for
the family.
And in May of 1808, dorotheabecame ill and passed away at
the age of 52 of a respiratoryillness.
There weren't pneumoniavaccines back then.
No, there were not Dang.
So Jacob and Wilhelm now areliving with their four younger
(42:24):
siblings.
Okay, they only lived withtheir mom as adults for just shy
of three years, because theywere sent away and they did
traveling, so they didn't reallyget a lot of adult time with
their mom, which is sad.
That is sad.
Jacob was 23 and wilhelm 22.
Okay, their dad's pensionstopped with the passing of
their mother and so there was nomoney coming in now and during
(42:47):
this time they all only ate onemeal a day and they also gave up
tea time.
Yeah, I know, but after threemonths jacob received a position
at the library in the palace.
So under the king, okay, therewere 12 000 books in this
library and only the king queenand the librarians could have
(43:07):
access to these books.
And jacob was given a lot offlexibility with his job, which
was great.
He was able to explore thelibrary freely and kind of do
his own research.
Now we're jumping back toWilhelm.
He was having health problemsaround this time.
He always had health problemshis whole life.
I think it's from scarlet fever, and then it just continued his
(43:28):
whole life.
Yeah, causes heart damage yes,he had an irregular heartbeat.
Yep, shortness of breath.
Yes, pain in his chest yeah,okay, damn, wilhelm would end up
traveling 60 miles for medicalcare, and he stayed with
Professor Reel.
Now, it's like 1809.
(43:49):
Wilhelm had I thought you wouldfind this interesting his
medical care routine.
It's very interesting.
In the mornings he would wakeup and rub a mercury ointment on
his neck, and then he'd washhis heart, like his chest, but
like above his heart, withspirits, and I couldn't see if
they were spirits, like alcoholor some type of a disinfectant.
(44:12):
I don't know if they had thatback then, though it was just
said, wash his heart withspirits, and it was like above
the chest, and then some days,he would swallow a powder that
would make him sick, but thiswas only once a month, when the
moon was waning.
Yeah, a little bit of science,a little celestial.
And then, half an hour after,he would ingest the powder.
(44:34):
He would take a bitter essenceto help him regain his appetite.
Not a clue what that is, okay,bitter essence.
I quoted it from the book.
In the late mornings he wouldtake more pills and then wash
his heart area again and repeatthis throughout the day.
Wilhelm also wore a magneticband around his heart, like his
(44:56):
chest, okay, and he would bathein hot springs while holding a
sponge over his heart.
And he also tried anexperimental pill that needed to
be handled carefully or else itwould explode if it got too hot
.
What, what, what?
What's in that pill?
What Is that radiation?
(45:17):
No, no, that wouldn't explode.
No, it's got to be some form ofcarbon.
Yeah, it's got to be somepowder.
Yeah, something, something thatis crazy.
And then there's more.
The professor was trying thesenew electrical cures.
The battery was just invented,like nine years earlier, so he's
(45:38):
all about this stuff.
And the electrical cure beganwhen the staff would wheel in a
contraption that was describedby Wilhelm as a magnificent,
large, mahogany machine.
Interesting, yeah, huh, this islike their version of a
defibrillator or something.
I don't know, because it saysthat he would sit for 10 minutes
(46:02):
, bound with chains, on a stool.
Okay, and the stool was on aglass-legged table.
So then they would sendelectrical currents through the
chains that he's attached to,like bound with, but the current
wouldn't bother Wilhelm unlesssomeone brushed against his coat
(46:23):
and then sparks would come out,okay, and it would shock him if
someone touched him, but otherthan that he was fine.
He was fine, okay, I don't knowwhat that is, okay, um, and
wilhelm was very impressed andhe said that the professor was a
wonderful man, great, yeah,there was no mention of like
(46:44):
what symptoms this helped, justthe general heart stuff, like
you know.
You know, his heart hurt, hischest hurt, right, that kind of
just pain in his chest is allit's really explained as
interesting.
I wonder if they have one ofthese machines somewhere in a
museum, maybe like irregularheartbeats and things like that,
like a pacemaker, like that'smaybe, yeah, what that would do.
(47:08):
But the people feel that though,yeah, wilhelm did eventually
grow tired of the treatments.
I think eventually he did startto feel like electricity coming
and like it wasn't fun for himanymore because he was receiving
them daily and they werecausing oh, sometimes I forget
what I write they were causingincreasingly unpleasant
(47:28):
sensations, oh, okay, okay.
So at first it was fine, andthen he was like I'm done, this
is a lot.
When wilhelm was not undergoinglike medical treatment, he
would look through old books forfolk tales and folk songs.
He was also very interested inthis too from their friend
savini.
Oh, I also forgot to mentionthat at some point during all
(47:50):
this, jacob sent a collection offairy tales that he himself
collected to a friend for theirchild.
Oh so they have this.
They just don't really knowwhat to do with it.
Yet right back to wilhelm.
Six months later, wilhelm wasfinally better and able to
return home.
He felt better.
Things were getting, his heartrhythm was better.
(48:11):
So maybe that electric stuffdid help him.
Yeah, maybe it paced his heart.
It was temporary, like Right,but it helped, yeah.
Before Wilhelm returned home,though, he went on a trip to
Berlin with his friends, withone of his friends paying for
him to go.
I had to look that up.
I was like Wilhelm, y'all arepoor, you can't be going to
Berlin, but his friend paid.
They don't have friends.
Well, they do have somescholarly friends.
(48:33):
They have like a group of likethree or four, and the names pop
up over and over again, butSavini's the main one.
I didn't want to get tooconfusing, got it.
So, friends, thank you for notbeing confusing.
Yeah, I try.
Wilhelm met artists and writerswhile he was in Berlin, and
Berlin was to Wilhelm what Pariswas to Jacob.
It helped culture him, openedhis eyes.
(48:54):
He saw more literature, moreart, and he was very inspired to
just be among the writers andartists.
He didn't really want to be alaw person anymore.
He was like I like this, thisis what I want to do.
He grew up.
Yeah, wilhelm did return toKassel in December of 1809 and
reunited once again with brotherJacob.
Now, by this time, the Frenchsecret police were everywhere,
(49:20):
the French had taken over andthe Germans were now speaking
French and taking on Frenchcustoms.
The brothers felt massivepressure to obtain the German
culture and preserve it beforeit was gone forever.
So they kicked into high gearand started collecting stories.
That's where we're going to end.
Part one.
The Brothers Grimm.
(49:41):
I know who knew their childhoodis like a fairy tale.
It is.
Now I get it.
Now I'm understanding theirstories more and more.
Yes, yeah, and we're not evenreally going to talk too much
about the stories they did,because they didn't write a lot
of the stories.
They did get them from France,from Austria, from Germany, from
(50:02):
Sweden.
They wanted a Germanicpreservation more than like a
country preservation.
They were looking more for theGermanic people.
But we'll get more into that, ok, yeah, so this will be three
parts.
That was a lot and we didn'teven get into the storytelling.
Sorry, yes, but I felt likeit's perfect because it's, you
(50:23):
know, mid-september.
It's technically spooky season.
I know it's fairy tale season.
Yes, having a three-part grimepisode is gonna be be great.
Yes, perfect timing.
Yay, so we are done.
And you get two more episodeswith my twin, sam.
Yay, I hope you guys can tellthe difference in our voices.
I can't.
I can't Stop laughing, like me.
(50:46):
God damn it.
Our cadence is too much thesame.
Alright, well, while you'rewaiting for the next Grimm
Brother episode to come out,please follow me on Instagram at
Borrowed Bones Podcast.
Also, if you could like andfollow us on Apple Podcasts,
spotify, anywhere you listen,engagement really, really helps.
I get really bored, sad andlonely.
(51:06):
So please comment and like.
She has a twin, but she'slonely, just like Jacob and
Wilhelm.
Do you want your instagram?
Do you want?
Do you want to throw out yourinstagram handle, or do you not
give a fuck?
I don't give a fuck.
You have a private account?
Yeah, it's not.
Yeah, it's private.
I don't really participate byposting.
I usually just you don't doanything, I don't do.
(51:26):
Yeah, I don't post anythinganywhere at all.
Well, I don't have facebook, soI don't know what your life is
like on there.
I don't do that either.
Okay, okay, so you're notmissing anything.
Hooray, we communicate outsideof social media.
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,boom, boom.
All right, thank you, bye, bye.
Hello everyone.
I'm Sarah and I'm Sam andyou're listening to Borrowed
Bones, a podcast about fucked up, interesting and toxic families
.
We have our first ever guest,my twin, samantha.
Yay, hi everyone.
The reason we have Samantha andnot Cole is because we are
(00:22):
talking about the Brothers Grimm.
Ooh, they're more interestingthan I realize.
That's why it took me likeeight months to fucking do this.
That's true.
She's been telling me for likea year that we were going to do
this one together and now it isSeptember of 2025.
I think it was last Christmas.
I told you about it.
Yeah, it's almost a year.
I've just been waiting.
I told all my friends like sixmonths ago, so I stopped talking
(00:45):
about it.
I'm sorry they never brought itup.
So it's fine, sam's friends,here we are and she's roped into
a three-parter.
Yep, yep, it's going to begreat.
I wanted to know why thesebrothers became obsessed with
collecting fairy tales and Ialso wanted to know a little bit
about their actual family.
Like, what else is there aboutthem?
(01:07):
Who are the Grimm's?
Who could foster these two boys, these two brothers, to be so
obsessed with fairy tales?
I honestly thought it wasn'teven a real family.
I just thought that's what theycalled the fairy tales.
I didn't know.
There was an actual brothersbehind the brothers Grimm.
Yeah, I've noticed a lot ofpeople think the same thing.
They just thought it was afairy tale itself.
(01:29):
But they're real, they reallyexisted and let's talk about
them.
All right, let's go.
Jacob Grimm was born January 4th1785.
To parents Philip and DorotheaGrimm.
And then, just one year later,wilhelm Grimm was born in
(01:50):
February of 1786.
So these boys are 13 monthsapart.
So we've got Jacob and Wilhelm.
Jacob and Wilhelm, okay, andtheir parents, philip and
Dorothea.
They did have a son that wasborn first, before Jacob, but he
passed away at just threemonths old.
Yeah, that's sad.
In total, dorothea would birthnine children and six would
(02:14):
survive to adulthood.
Wow, yeah, wow, I guess that'sa sign of the times.
Yes, that happened a lot thelate 1700s, early 1800s.
Yeah, jacob and wilhelm willhave four younger siblings.
Okay, the younger siblings werecarl, ferdinand, ludwig, and
then their youngest sibling wassister charlotte, who went by
(02:37):
lottie.
Oh, I love that.
I thought that was cute.
What's that from yellow jackets?
That's a character in a movie,is it?
I don't know.
I mean it could be YellowJackets, but I thought it was
like there was another moviewith Lottie A Little Princess.
Is it A Little Princess?
Isn't there a little orphangirl named Lottie?
I don't know, maybe the onethat Look it up.
(02:58):
You have to look sense.
Yeah, okay, you found it, I did.
It is from A Little Princess, aLittle Princess, and Lottie is a
friend of Sarah in the seminary.
She's described as someone wholooks childish and chubby.
(03:20):
She's the little crybaby girlthat cried on the floor because
she wanted her mom.
Yes, and then sarah would helpher.
So was she the one that wouldthrow fits or that?
Okay, she would throw fits.
Yeah, I want my mom.
I want my mom.
I want my mom.
Exactly.
How did I forget that?
I don't know sarah's bestfriend.
Anyway, I was named after sarahfrom the labyrinth, not Sarah
(03:41):
from A Little Princess.
Yeah, thanks.
So facts Don't care.
Moving on, okay, philip Grimmworked as a lawyer and was also
the town clerk of Hanau.
That's the city they lived in,and Hanau was in Hesse or Hessen
Castle.
What country is this?
(04:02):
This is where it gets a littletough.
Okay, this is Germany, Ifigured.
And Germany was not unified atthis time.
It's when there was Prussia andthen the other parts of Germany
were kingdoms of Germany,gotcha.
So we're in kingdoms.
Each kingdom has its own ruler.
It's very all over the place.
We need to know all this tounderstand the Grimm's In 1785,
(04:24):
to understand the Grimm's In1785, a new ruler took over,
causing the Grimm's to move intoa new house, because whenever
the powers that be exchangedhands, philip's job changed
because he worked for thegovernment.
Okay, this wasn't a bad switch.
The new house was a step up forthe Grimm's.
They were now living acomfortable, upper-middle-class
life.
This is a fun life Like.
(04:46):
Their childhood is so fairytaleit doesn't feel real.
This is why people don't thinkthey're real.
They had two servants.
One was the nursery maid whowould tell them stories and
sneak them little treats ofbread and cheese.
Then the other servant helpedout mom with household chores
and all that stuff.
Servant helped out mom withhousehold chores and all that
(05:06):
stuff.
Once a week there was a washerwoman that would come and wash
their clothes in big steamingtubs out in the courtyard and
she would often give them breadwith some drops of brandy on
them.
It's like a treat.
Oh man, what a good nanny.
I know she was just the washerwoman.
Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, brandywas everywhere.
I don't know if Brandy was athing back then.
(05:28):
Give it to your kids Now.
The Grimm's new house was largeand up to date on all of the
latest trends.
Their drawing room hadwallpaper which was new at the
time, and it was dyed a forestgreen with pictures of huntsmen
on them, and the brothers wouldstare at this wall, imagining
what adventures these huntersare on.
Dorothea could also be foundrelaxing upstairs.
(05:52):
She'd be knitting or sewing.
There was also a bathtubupstairs where their mom would
bathe them, often throwing asplash of wine into the
bathwater.
Wow, jacob said the watersmelled sweet, but it burned his
eyes.
Oh sure, yeah was.
Were bathtubs a thing or isthat like a state-of-the-art
type of?
They were bad like pot, likenot pots, but like tubs that
(06:16):
just sat in the middle of theroom just filled with hot water.
Yeah, and they just fill it.
I had to know why there waswine in this bathtub.
I was like why Did you do that?
What does that mean?
It was thought that wine orvinegar would help to keep the
plague away during the medievaltimes.
So it's a layover from that.
Yeah, so Dorothea was beingsmart.
(06:36):
She was, as the Grimm's lived inHanau.
They were surrounded by familyfrom both sides, both their mom
and dad's families.
Jacob and Wilhelm would oftenvisit their father's oldest
sister, aunt Schlemmer.
What's her last name?
Schlemmer?
These are German people.
That's her name, aunt SchlemmerStop.
Her first name, I forgot, waslike Julianne Charlotte, but
(06:58):
Aunt Schlemmer Schlemmer.
They would spend more time ather house than at their own home
.
Aunt Schlemmer was the one whotaught Jacob how to read and she
grew very close to the Grimm's.
She was Philip's oldest siblingand she was really close to her
brother, philip and the Grimm'sbecause she was a widow.
So she ends up moving in withthe Grimm's Grimm's Now.
(07:29):
Their father applied for aposition as a district
magistrate at the end of 1790and was offered the position in
1791.
So the Grimm's move again, butthey moved to a different city
called Steinau.
That was a really good job.
I practiced, did you practice?
I practiced Because you saw meget ready for it.
I am shocked at how good thatpronunciation was.
I deserve a drink.
I believe it.
I believe that's what it'scalled.
(07:50):
You can even Google it.
I will not.
I'll trust you.
Yeah, I don't have to.
I trust it.
And at this time in 1791, jacobwas six years old and Wilhelm
was five.
Lottie has not been born yet,so we're still kind of growing
the family.
And the other city, hanau, was abit more isolated from the
(08:11):
outside world.
So when they moved to Shainauthey were surprised at the
activity.
It was a smaller city but itwas on the Royal Road, so there
was a lot of passing throughforeigners, a bunch of inns and
places for travelers to eat ordrink.
They also really loved theirnew spacious 16th century
magistrate's house.
(08:31):
It was a castle.
They lived in a fucking castlethat was 200 years old already,
in 1791.
What?
Yeah, it was the classic stonethick walls with those turrets,
and the boys would spy out ofthem and watch everything that
was going on.
There was a lot of hustle andbustle.
Oh man, doesn't that sound likefairy tale?
(08:53):
It does.
They're bathing in wine andjust having some brandy with
toast, yeah, and then I justlive in a castle.
Yeah, they have no idea.
No, servants and coachmen werealways coming and going and they
would often be playful with theboys.
They had storks make nestsnearby.
Okay, yep, that's real.
(09:15):
Okay, I don't believe this.
I know it's weird.
There were also carvings ofdevils and figures on the ends
of rafters.
They had that classic likearchitecture Sounds a little
gothic maybe.
There was also even a storyabout the previous magistrate
haunting the castle, like just alittle kid's dream.
(09:36):
Right, we thought our house washaunted growing up and we had a
lot of fun with that.
We did.
I think it is haunted.
It was a good time.
It was a scary time but it wasa good time.
I know it was kind of scary butit was fun.
There wasn't many a night Islept by myself.
No, no, I would just crawl intoyour room on the floor.
Yeah, you'd wake up andsurprise.
(09:58):
I did that with you a few timesmy sister's on the floor.
You had a creepy, had it inyour bedroom and we were always
just guessed on who it was.
Really, yes, you don't rememberthat photo.
That's why I wouldn't sleep inyour room, because that photo
was there.
No, I don't.
It was like original to thehouse.
You're such a weirdo I don'tremember the photo.
But I really hated that room somuch I really was uncomfortable
(10:21):
, I couldn't sleep and then Ihad to jump off of the bed like
a foot away from the bed becauseI was terrified of something
grabbing me from under the bed.
I remember when you were thatscared.
I was that scared, the sixthsense, okay, that girl that
grabbed his ankle, she did it.
She killed me for the rest ofmy life.
I'm scared of under beds now,even now.
(10:41):
But you play her so wellBecause you used to pretend to
be her too.
Yes, I did.
She terrified me so much.
You did really great at playingher.
Yeah, I did a lot of goodthings.
Yeah, yeah, anyway, well,anyway, the boys haven't even
left to go to the city yet.
This is just stuff that happensaround the castle, okay, so when
(11:04):
they do go into town, they getto watch potters working with
their clay tanners, with theirhides, and there's even a
mention of a goose girl drivingher flock.
Are you fucking kidding me,goose girl?
Yeah, I don't.
I had no idea.
That was even an occupation.
Well, I mean, someone has tomove the geese, right?
(11:25):
I guess they do.
I mean again, 1700s.
Yeah, what are you going to do?
Someone's got to do it, andLottie was born during this time
as well.
So now we have all of theGrimm's, okay, while they were
(11:50):
in Shainau, jacob and Wilhelm,my southerness.
I don't have a lot of it left,but it wants to come out.
When I say Wilhelm, I want tosay Wilhelm.
Me too.
I can't, it's going to happen.
It's either Wilhelm or it'slike Wilhelm Wilhelm.
That's how I want to say itWilhelm Wilhelm.
Maybe, if I do it thetraditional way, with a V sound,
jakob and Wilhelm.
Oh good, they began seeing aschool master and having private
tutoring.
They were learning the basicsreading, writing, arithmetic,
(12:10):
all that.
They were also learning how toplay the violin and dance and
speak french.
Philip wanted his sons to beable to mingle with the elites,
and it's really cute, becausethe boys were often seen walking
hand in hand on their way totheir lessons.
Oh, my god right, no one talksabout this part of him or them.
I had to read so many books forthis because there's no
(12:32):
documentaries or podcasts thatlike talk about this side of
them.
Right, I had to read books forthis, sam.
Well, I didn't even know theywere real until they're real
started.
So, yeah, and then, while theywere in steinau, they also began
to have an appreciation for thelocal customs.
They entered the city wearingtheir shoulder length, hair just
(12:55):
down and loose, but the stylein steinau was to wear in a
ponytail.
So they soon followed suit.
And with other things theystarted to follow suit with as
well, and this is where theystarted to have their love for
their own culture and traditions.
They didn't really know what todo with it yet, but the spark
is there.
(13:16):
A few years after they moved, in1793, the winds of change were
swirling around Europe.
The French revolted, leading tothe beheading of their king,
king Louis XVI, and thathappened in January of 1793.
Whenever there was trouble inFrance, that meant trouble in
(13:38):
Germany, because they are soclose together.
There's quite the ripple effectthat happens, and the kingdoms
throughout all of German, thekingdoms that were throughout
all of the German lands mytongue just didn't want to move
All of the rulers of each of thegerman kingdoms were getting
nervous because they just sawfrance behead their king and
(14:00):
they're like whoa, let's just bechill, let's be chill, let's be
chill.
Yeah, but because no one's everchill, soldiers started coming
in and out of steinau, goingback and forth on the royal road
the french soldiers, thehessian soldiers, um, dutch,
prussian, austrian.
So you have, like your allies ofgermany, being like no, france,
don't come over here, like theFrench soldiers, the Hessian
soldiers Dutch, prussian,austrian.
So you have like your allies ofGermany being like, no, france,
(14:20):
don't come over here, likedon't do that over here.
Then you have French being likewe revolted, now we'll take
over you.
I don't really understand it.
All you need to know is that alot is happening.
Ok, there were a thousandHessian soldiers that marched
through Steinau in one day alone, and Steinau only has like
1,400 people that live there atthis time.
(14:41):
So to have a thousand people inone day come through, that's a
lot.
And from November of 1793 tothe end of 1795, almost 490,000
troops total passed throughSteinau.
Wow, yes, and the boys?
They liked watching thesoldiers march, but they also
(15:02):
didn't really like the way theforeign soldiers did things.
Sure, like the Dutch and theAustrians, they typically got
drunk and unruly.
They wanted to take food, drink, livestock, they just took
whatever they wanted.
And it caused a lot of localsto file complaints, which then
made a lot of work for their dadbecause as the magistrate he
dealt with the small scale likedrunken, disorderly, that kind
(15:26):
of stuff.
But despite all of this, theGrimm's were able to live a
pretty normal and decent lifethere.
They just kind of stayed out ofthe way, when Philip was home
he would say morning prayers andhe would engage in conversation
with his children during dinnertime, which was he was like a
nice dad like, especially forthe time he wanted to be with
his kids.
He would even take one or twokids with him into town whenever
(15:49):
he needed to go for likebusiness or something.
Even if he went to a differenttown, he'd take a kid with him.
He also really loved doting onhis baby girl, lottie, lottie,
yeah.
And then Dorothea even wrote apoem to Philip once and she
referred to him as a noble, warmfriend with whom my heart is
eternally united.
Oh, isn't that cute the waythey wrote back then and just
(16:13):
spoke in general.
I know Around Christmastime in1795, philip became ill with
pneumonia.
No, and Dorothea was stillmourning the loss of their
youngest child, george, whopassed away at eight months old.
So it fell upon Jacob to becomeresponsible for sending letters
(16:33):
out to his grandfather updatinghim about Philip's health.
Jacob was 10 years old.
Wow, yeah, mom was like I can'thandle this, it's too much.
Yeah, jacob, you got to do it,you're old enough.
There was one point where Jacobthought that his dad was doing
better.
His appetite was coming backand it looked pretty promising.
(16:53):
He wrote a letter to hisgrandfather, zimmer, back in
Hanau, that dad's doing better.
Will you please send some breadfrom the baker that he likes?
But once the bread arrived, itwas too late.
I know Philip passed away.
Oh, yeah, he passed away inJanuary of 1796, just days after
Jacob's 11th birthday.
(17:15):
Oh, isn't it sad.
That is so sad.
And Philip was only 44.
Wow, yeah, I mean that wasprobably.
That's young, even for backthen?
Are you sure?
Yes, okay, because usually onceyou make it past infancy, you
can live.
Yeah, the reason why theaverage lifespan is so short is
(17:35):
because of all the infant deaths.
But once you're past a year ortwo, you're pretty much the same
as you and I, golden.
Yeah, I mean you're not goingto reach like 90, but you know
70s, it's pretty normal, okay,poor Jacob.
Now he's the man of the house.
Yep, he's the man of the house.
Being 11 years old, wilhelm isbarely 10.
Yep, yep.
(18:01):
After Philip's death, the familyquickly fell on hard times.
They could not handle itfinancially.
It really caught up with themfast.
As the magistrate, philipreceived a lot of benefits, like
in-kind rent, so he didn't haveto pay for his house.
He had the right to cultivatecertain tracts of land in the
district.
He also was given householdstaff, and then he also had a
salary on top of those things.
All of that's gone Right.
(18:23):
So I'm assuming they can't stayin the magistrate castle?
Nope, nope.
Dorothea was only 40 at thistime and, with her six children,
they really started to see thedecline in standard of living
and, like you said, within weeksthey had to vacate the house to
make way for philip's successor.
Yeah, yeah, so that sucked.
(18:44):
What's lottie gonna do?
She's just a baby right now.
Right, they first moved nextdoor to a small, like run down
house with a view of themagistrate's house, but that was
just a little too painful forthem, right, that's horrible.
Yeah, that's all they had,though, like in a quick notice,
that's all they could do.
Watch out the window.
(19:04):
Your hopes and dreams, yeah,everything you once had given to
someone else.
I hate that.
Okay, dorothea did receive alittle pension, though after
Philip's death.
It was 100 Frankfurt guilders,which was only one sixteenth of
their previous income.
So sharp decline.
Yeah, but no matter what, theywere united.
(19:28):
Their aunt Schlemmer was stillwith them and they decided to
scrape up enough together sothat way they could buy an upper
floor of a house at theopposite side of the town center
.
Just like, let's get out ofhere.
We found a space.
The house included a barn and asmall garden.
Sadly though, only 11 monthsafter Philip's death, his sister
(19:53):
, aunt Schlemmer, would also dieat the age of 61.
Oh man, I'm not sure how shedied.
Yeah, yeah, just not even ayear later.
Wow, so Dorothy is now alone,alone with her kids.
Jacob took his aunt's death veryhard.
They were very close.
Jacob was her favorite and sheshowed it it was understood.
(20:13):
She was actually kind of meanto the other kids.
She's like, get out of here,jacob's mine.
It was said that Jacob looked alot like his grandfather on his
dad's side.
So her dad, okay, that helooked a lot like his paternal
grandfather.
So that's the idea of why theyclung together so well.
But Jacob was really smart too,and Aunt Schlemmer was really
(20:33):
smart, and from the stories Iread, I don't think she gave a
fuck about dumb kids.
She's like I don't have timefor this, you're stupid.
Jacob was smart, so he made thecut.
Yeah, oh, I really think that'show it went.
I understand.
I feel that.
Yeah, yeah, I feel it.
Well, the Grimms quickly fellinto a new normal.
(20:54):
They a bench in front of thegarden hut, either reading,
knitting or gazing at herchildren as they played.
There are also some churchbells that would chime in the
distance every hour, like, eventhough they're kind of broke now
, right, they still have fairytale life.
Their life sucks, but itdoesn't.
I know.
It's still like a beautifullife.
Still a beautiful life.
That's gorgeous.
(21:15):
I know, I forgot about thispart.
Inside their house they keptbirds.
They had blackbirds andlunettes.
I didn't look up how topronounce that, I don't know.
I don't really like birds.
They kept the blackbirds andlunettes in cages.
You know this.
They attack me.
Okay, I know, I do know this.
Yes, I do know that.
But what I thought was weird?
(21:36):
So these birds are in cagesnormal but they have two doves
that would nest under a bedStrange.
They just have wild animalsliving in their home.
Yep, under the bed.
Fairytale shit Is that creepygirl from the Sixth Sense is
supposed to be?
It's birds?
Oh, my God, what if she's likestabbing the doves like a hex?
Okay, sorry, I didn't go thatfar in my head.
(21:59):
I've been reading about theGrimm's for a long time.
It's dark in here.
In 1798, so two and a half yearsafter their dad dies it was
decided that Jacob and Wilhelmwould attend high school in
Kassel.
So they're going back to wherethey came from, that's where
(22:20):
their grandfather Zimmer is, andAunt Zimmer.
Her name is Henriette orHenrietta, I don't know how to
pronounce it.
It ends with an E.
Yeah, it's German, it'sprobably Henrietta.
I'm going to say Henrietta,yeah, yeah.
Now, aunt Henrietta was alady-in-waiting for a countess
(22:42):
and she said that the boys couldcome live in the castle with
her and attend school in Castle.
Right, okay, so CastleC-A-S-T-L-E.
Living in Castle K-A-S-S-E-L.
Okay, yes, okay, yes,understood.
In late September, 13-year-oldJacob and 12-year-old Wilhelm
(23:03):
left from Shainau back to Castleand the rest of the family
stayed.
Stayed in Shainau, yes, so justthe boys, just the boys.
Now the name of this palace.
I'm going to try and say it'svery difficult, I just like it.
Okay, they arrived at SchlossWilhelmschlü, shut up, schloss
(23:26):
Wilhelmschlü.
That was so good For someonewho doesn't know German.
We're doing great.
It sounds good to me.
If anyone's from Germanylistening to this, just let us
know.
Or if anyone speaks fluentGerman.
Let us know if she's totallybotching these names or if she's
actually doing a really goodjob, because I think it sounds
(23:48):
fantastic.
I think it sounds pretty goodtoo, I think.
So that was great.
So again, they're living inanother castle I'm not going to
say the name.
Again, you did your duediligence and they're living
with their aunt, henriettaZimmer.
Okay, jacob and Wilhelm shared aroom and they really loved
their new accommodations.
It was gorgeous, beautiful,everything.
(24:09):
Basically, all castles haveSchool.
On the other hand, even thoughthey enjoyed their living
arrangements, they did notreally enjoy going to school.
They liked receiving education,they were great on that, but
they just did not fit insocially at this school.
Okay, they were surrounded bynoble families and they were not
noble.
They're kind of at the bestupper middle class.
(24:30):
But now they fell hard andthey're not anymore.
The teachers would even speakdown to them in a different
German dialect.
They would not speak highGerman to them.
Ooh, there's different dialects, wow, and that showed how they
thought of you.
Okay, and the teachers wouldtalk down to them.
Okay, and so Jacob and Wilhelmfelt like they were just these
(24:50):
country bumpkins trying to makeit out in the city.
They were like, oh, we don'tfit in here.
Yeah, to make it out in thecity.
They were like, oh, we don'tfit in here, yeah.
They were also a little behindwhen they entered school because
of just the living where theywere, you know.
But Jacob was able to test wellenough to make it into the
lowest classes to prep him foruniversity.
Wilhelm didn't make it, oh no.
(25:13):
So he had to do privatetutoring for a year before he
was admitted in, but eventuallyhe made it.
Okay, a little bit of astruggle, but they got there.
Once they were in, they movedquickly, excelled and did great
through school.
They just didn't get along wellwith people.
They didn't like anyone Did.
They talk to each other prettymuch the whole time.
They had a very heavy workload.
(25:34):
Before school they would spendabout four to five hours being
tutored in Latin and French andthen they would spend six hours
a day at school.
So 11 hours of schoolwork everyday.
And during this time the boysdid grow very close.
They were discouraged frommaking friends by their
grandfather and their mom,because Dorothea said, and I
(25:57):
quote, to not look for companyof other boys, it's too
distracting.
Okay, the Grimm's are puttingall of their eggs into Jacob and
Wilhelm's baskets.
All the money that they had wasgiven to them for the school.
They had to pull some stringsand connections, and everything
too, because these boys probablyshouldn't have been admitted
(26:17):
into the school.
But mom and Aunt Zimmer knewthe right people, but they were
like this is our one shot, youcan't fuck it up.
Jacob and Wilhelm did growhomesick, though, and they would
find certain distractions tohelp stay in good spirits.
They would catch butterfliesand collect stones.
When they did have money, theywould go to the used bookstores
and buy poetry and fictionnovels, so just always keeping
(26:40):
their minds busy.
In 1802, jacob was admitted intothe University of Marburg.
The school was what I was goingto say.
Where is that?
It was 30 miles away, just inGermany.
Yeah, okay, 30 miles away fromCastle and 30 miles away from
Wilhelm.
Oh no, I can't do this, sorry,it's just a vocal stim.
(27:08):
I do all the time, and thiswould be the first time that the
boys were separated, becauseWilhelm still had one more year
of school to finish.
He is a year younger than Jacob.
Yeah, it's going to happen,right, but that's devastating.
I remember when they split us upand put us in a different class
as I just completely wentinward and stopped being social
(27:30):
and didn't know what to do.
Yeah, they say studies haveshown not to split up twins when
you go to school.
Because Samantha and Istruggled hard.
Yeah, that was really hard.
I still struggle to this daybecause of that.
Yeah, I remember staringbecause our kindergarten
classrooms were across the hallfrom each other, so if the doors
were open I could see you Right.
And I remember just staring andlongingly wanting to go over
(27:52):
there and my teacher would belike Sarah, get over here.
And I'd be like, no, I hated mykindergarten teacher, I hated
her.
She probably remembers me, notin a good way.
And then by third grade itbecame such an issue.
They did put us together, yes,but then we were split up again
in high school.
No, it was fourth grade.
We didn't have the same fourthgrade class, did we?
Oh, yeah, we were split upagain.
(28:13):
We were split up after thirdgrade and sixth grade.
We had different classes too,because my fourth grade teacher
didn't like me either.
That was Miss Palmer.
I had Miss Palmer, okay.
So we had the same fourth grade.
So we had the same fourth grade, okay, but were you taken out
of Miss Palmer's class with adifferent fourth grade teacher
Because you guys didn't getalong.
No, okay, just wondering.
(28:33):
I did not get along with thatteacher and she just let me walk
out whenever I felt angry.
Yeah, so, anyway, don't splitup your twins.
Don't split up your twins.
If you have twins, don't splitthem up.
They'll develop much better.
Yes, and now we're just awkward.
Raise a sunshine.
Don't know how to talk topeople.
No, no, no, it's okay.
Yeah, we found partners thatare codependent.
(28:57):
It's alright, it's fine.
I do view us outliving ourpartners, though, and living
together at the end and justbeing spinsters.
Same.
Sorry, cole and Carrie, it'sfine, that's how it's going to
be.
Hayley will move in too.
She will.
Hayley's our older sister, oneof us.
One of us.
(29:20):
That wasn't planned.
Okay, we have to focus, focus.
Sorry, god damn it.
Okay, I don't know where I'm at, 30 miles away.
College yeah, jacob was not veryimpressed in his first year of
university.
He was quickly becoming boredwith his professors.
He was like all they do is makeus memorize and recite.
(29:40):
They're not even like invokingnew ideas or having
conversations.
He's like this is boring.
Jacob went into studying lawlike his father.
He felt that was the mostpragmatic thing to do for his
family.
He was given the nickname ofthe old man because of how
serious he took his studies.
He was locked in, straight andnarrow Locked in.
(30:01):
Jacob was very lonely at school, though, and he wrote to
Wilhelm and he said I'd ratherbe in a wooden stall in a barn
with friends than all alone inthis beautiful scene.
Oh my gosh, they have like loveletters to each other.
That's cute and weird.
It's kind of weird, I'll behonest.
(30:22):
Like I wouldn't write lettersto you like that.
No, I'd be like I miss you, Ihave FOMO, I don't know.
Like what are you doing?
What's up Now?
Around this time in the fall of1802, there was a conspiracy
theory going around that theworld was going to end due to
all the wickedness Ooh Rawr.
And Jacob believed it.
(30:43):
He was like oh shit.
And he wrote a letter to hisfriend Paul stating that he
hoped to receive one more letterfrom him before.
They never saw each other again, and Paul was back in Castle,
like 30 miles away, and that's abig difference at that time.
So Paul had no idea what he wastalking about, because that
rumor didn't reach Castle.
So Paul was like hey, you'renot going to like off yourself,
(31:06):
are you?
So it sounds like a suicidenote, yeah.
And Paul was like you good, yougood.
And then Jacob was like, oh yep,the world didn't end, I guess A
month later, once the lettersgot back.
Pretty much, I just thoughtthat was really funny.
That is kind of interesting.
Yeah, so conspiracy theoriesabout the world ending have been
Forever, a forever thing.
(31:26):
Mm, hmm, ok, forever, yep, lovethat, and I'm surprised that
Jacob fell for it, honestly.
But I guess I don't know.
I mean, if there's no othertime to fall for it, it would be
the 1700s.
It does make sense, 1800s,especially with, like, the
Napoleonic Wars going on andeverything, and you just see
these French soldiers and allthis stuff.
Yeah, yeah, well, the world didnot end and Wilhelm was back in
(31:52):
castle and he was dealing withhis own issues with isolation,
castle, and he was dealing withhis own issues with isolation.
Shortly after jacob left,wilhelm suffered from an asthma
attack and then scarlet fever,oh yeah.
And wilhelm was quarantined forsix weeks and their friend paul
would visit wilhelm and writeletters for him, because back
(32:12):
then, when you're resting, youweren't allowed to read or write
, which I thought that wasinteresting.
But you could draw what theywanted you to rest your mind as
well as your body, but you coulddraw.
But you can draw.
I guess that's a different partof the brain.
They don't know what they'retalking about.
(32:37):
They just thought rest.
Drawing isn't real work.
I'm an artist.
I'm an artist.
Okay.
Once Wilhelm was better, hefocused on school and did well
in his studies and eventually,after the year, he was then
admitted to the University ofMarburg and him and Jacob were
reunited after one year apart,thank God, and Wilhelm was also
(32:59):
studying law.
They found out that theirfavorite professor was Frederick
Carl von Savini we will callhim Savini Okay, I like that.
And he was like an avant-gardeprofessor.
He would take in the papers orthe essays that the students
wrote and he would return themwith notes and comments and
(33:21):
thoughts.
That was different for thattime.
Yeah, and Jacob and Wilhelm arelike, wow, this guy actually
wants to engage with us and havea dialogue and talk about the
work we're doing.
And by the following year of1803, savini and the Grimm
brothers were actual friends andno longer just student and
professor.
The boys would go over to hishouse and discuss books.
(33:44):
Savini showed them his libraryand within that library there
was a book of German songs thatcaught Jacob's eye it's just
good to note because it's kindof where everything starts.
Yeah, and Savini was the onethat steered them towards
studying their own heritage,saying that, yeah, greek and
Roman are great we got to knowabout that but German heritage
(34:06):
is just as important, and so heput that seed in there.
Savini also introduced them tothe new generation of writers
called the Romantics, andRomanticism was a new way of
writing, and they would writeabout common people, nature,
write about like shepherds andshoemakers and washerwomen and
(34:27):
that kind of stuff.
That was a new thing for thistime.
Okay, so we're seeing thepieces kind of forming which is
like their whole life has likebeen this romanticized thing.
Now they have everythingthey've done.
Yeah, wine in the bath no, no,I love the wine in the bath.
I know I can't get over it.
I want to try that.
Hope you don't get the plague.
You know what.
(34:48):
I'm sure that's next on thelist of what's coming back.
So get your wine, your vinegar,put it in the tub.
The brothers would becomelifelong friends with Savini.
They stayed friends forever,shortly after their hanging out.
In 1803, professor Savini had togo to Paris and do like
professor shit.
He was researching and doingthings.
(35:11):
Yeah, Some professor shit.
Yeah, researching and doingthings.
Yeah, professor, some professorshit.
Yeah, yeah, cool.
The brothers were a littlebummed by it.
They're like ah, everybody youknow.
But in 1804 savini wrote tojacob asking him to come and
help him in paris to do research.
He said he can't really readthat well anymore.
His eyes were kind of going outon him.
So jacob enthusiasticallyaccepted the offer and moved to
(35:31):
paris, separating from wilhelmfor the second time.
Wow, jacob was 19 and wilhelm's18.
Now, okay, jacob had a bit of aculture shock when he arrived
in paris.
It was a lot more beautifulthan he thought it would be, but
it was also a lot moreexpensive.
He did enjoy sharing a roomwith a professor and spending
time with him.
(35:52):
He liked all of the arts andeverything he saw.
He just loved it.
But it was just a lot for him.
The second separation seemed tostrengthen the bond between
Wilhelm and Jacob, and in Julyof 1805, jacob wrote a letter to
Wilhelm stating they must neverbe apart and any separation
(36:13):
could make him die of grief.
That seems really too much.
It's a lot, yes, yes.
And then Wilhelm responds.
Wilhelm responds with no onehas loved me as much as you.
My love for you is just asheartfelt.
Wow, there's more Whoa, yeah.
(36:35):
So another letter from Jacob toWilhelm, referring to their
future careers, what they can doin the future, for how to work
together.
Jacob says should want one of usto go somewhere else, the other
would need to resign at once,and we are so accustomed to each
(36:56):
other's companionship thatseparation could distress me to
death.
How dramatic are these two boysabout each other.
Yeah, they're really intense,they are intense.
And then jacob goes on to saywhich I vibed with this part,
okay, okay, okay.
He said we will presumably atlast live quite withdrawn and
isolated, for we will not havemany friends and I do not enjoy
(37:20):
acquaintances.
We shall want to work with eachother quite collaboratively and
to cut off all other affairs.
I wouldn't cut off all otheraffairs, but I do like the same,
like bro, same.
I don't really likeacquaintances, like get out of
here, can I just live with you?
I'm all set, so like there arecertain moments where I get it,
but then other times I'm like ohJesus, guys, come on, come on,
(37:42):
boys, get it together, let's getit together.
While in Paris, jacob's job wasto read old manuscripts and
compare different versions tosee which ones were the most
accurate.
While doing this, jacob lookedup the original manuscript of
the book of German songs that hesaw in Savini's library.
It's still on his mind, that'sall.
(38:05):
There's nothing really thatcomes with these German songs,
it's just his gateway into theGerman culture and folksiness,
gotcha.
After 10 months apart, wilhelmand Jacob were reunited once
more Together.
They journeyed back to Kasselto be with their family, all
right, and this would be thefirst time the whole family has
(38:25):
been together in seven years.
Wow, yes, wilhelm began lookingfor work and studying for his
finals, while Jacob decided toforego his finals, since he had
really good recommendations, andinstead went in search for a
government position as like alawyer or secretary.
Okay, there were no jobs to befound, though.
(38:47):
Nothing was available, and thefamily went without income for a
few months, aside from thatsmall little pension that
dorothea gets, but no one'sbringing in any extra income.
Yeah, in january of 1806,though, jacob did become a clerk
in the hessian war office.
So german has.
Yeah, it wasn't a greatlucrative job, but it was
(39:10):
something.
But there was a bigger issue.
The fact that there was a needfor a Hessian war office, yeah,
meant that there was some shitgoing down.
Right, napoleon has beenconquering left and right.
He's been on some shit.
What a time to be alive inEurope at that time.
And I never thought about theintersection of Napoleon and the
(39:33):
Grimms Right or theintersection of Napoleon and
literally any other historicalAmerica.
Like, get your hands out ofhere, why?
Like everywhere, yeah, he didit all.
He did it all.
So we're going to kind ofsidetrack a little bit to when
the boys were younger and shapedby war, so like Napoleon and
(39:53):
conquering europe.
Okay, when the brothers wereyounger, in steinau and steinau
napoleon I went loose on mygerman accent there.
I had to bring it back.
She straightened right up andsaid steinau, just like that.
I feel like germans would havelike a straighter back than
americans, though back.
Hey, there's five germans thatlisten to us, tell us, let us
know.
Just like that, I feel likeGermans would have like a
(40:14):
straighter back than Americans,though.
Hey, there's five Germans thatlisten to us, tell us, let us
know.
Yeah, I'm sorry, is that ayodel?
What are you doing?
I don't know, I was laughing.
Well, while the brothers wereyounger, napoleon took control
(40:35):
of the French army and wasgradually seizing sections of
Europe and the Mediterranean.
Back in 1804, right before Jacobleft for Paris, napoleon was
dissolving the French Republicand he crowned himself emperor
of all of France's lands.
And then this I just thoughtwas interesting to think of
Jacob having to avoid Napoleon.
In 1805, when Jacob wasreturning home from Paris, he
needed to alter his route toavoid Napoleon's army.
(40:56):
He was like, oh shit, I'm inthe way.
Yeah, gotta use another road,yeah.
And then, in 1806, officially,the Holy Roman Empire came to an
end, which I'm not even goingto dip into, okay, okay, it's
just anyone who knows history.
This is what's going on, cool.
And November 1st of 1806,french soldiers marched into
(41:17):
castle and French officials tookover the government.
Okay, so, wow, french are in.
Some people fled at this time,but the Grimms stayed put.
Napoleon combined the kingdomof Hesse with nearby kingdoms
and named it the kingdom ofWestphalia.
Huh, okay.
(41:37):
And Napoleon placed his youngerbrother, jerome Bonaparte, on
the throne and foreigners filledthe castle and new customs
arose overnight.
And then the Hessean war officewas no longer needed because
French took over and Jacob foundhimself without a job yet again
.
Meanwhile, wilhelm passed hisfinals, but he still could not
(42:01):
find work either.
So, once again, both of themwithout income, no income for
the family.
And in May of 1808, dorotheabecame ill and passed away at
the age of 52 of a respiratoryillness.
There weren't pneumoniavaccines back then.
No, there were not Dang.
So Jacob and Wilhelm now areliving with their four younger
(42:24):
siblings.
Okay, they only lived withtheir mom as adults for just shy
of three years, because theywere sent away and they did
traveling, so they didn't reallyget a lot of adult time with
their mom, which is sad.
That is sad.
Jacob was 23 and wilhelm 22.
Okay, their dad's pensionstopped with the passing of
their mother and so there was nomoney coming in now and during
(42:47):
this time they all only ate onemeal a day and they also gave up
tea time.
Yeah, I know, but after threemonths jacob received a position
at the library in the palace.
So under the king, okay, therewere 12 000 books in this
library and only the king queenand the librarians could have
(43:07):
access to these books.
And jacob was given a lot offlexibility with his job, which
was great.
He was able to explore thelibrary freely and kind of do
his own research.
Now we're jumping back toWilhelm.
He was having health problemsaround this time.
He always had health problemshis whole life.
I think it's from scarlet fever, and then it just continued his
(43:28):
whole life.
Yeah, causes heart damage yes,he had an irregular heartbeat.
Yep, shortness of breath.
Yes, pain in his chest yeah,okay, damn, wilhelm would end up
traveling 60 miles for medicalcare, and he stayed with
Professor Reel.
Now, it's like 1809.
(43:49):
Wilhelm had I thought you wouldfind this interesting his
medical care routine.
It's very interesting.
In the mornings he would wakeup and rub a mercury ointment on
his neck, and then he'd washhis heart, like his chest, but
like above his heart, withspirits, and I couldn't see if
they were spirits, like alcoholor some type of a disinfectant.
(44:12):
I don't know if they had thatback then, though it was just
said, wash his heart withspirits, and it was like above
the chest, and then some days,he would swallow a powder that
would make him sick, but thiswas only once a month, when the
moon was waning.
Yeah, a little bit of science,a little celestial.
And then, half an hour after,he would ingest the powder.
(44:34):
He would take a bitter essenceto help him regain his appetite.
Not a clue what that is, okay,bitter essence.
I quoted it from the book.
In the late mornings he wouldtake more pills and then wash
his heart area again and repeatthis throughout the day.
Wilhelm also wore a magneticband around his heart, like his
(44:56):
chest, okay, and he would bathein hot springs while holding a
sponge over his heart.
And he also tried anexperimental pill that needed to
be handled carefully or else itwould explode if it got too hot
.
What, what, what?
What's in that pill?
What Is that radiation?
(45:17):
No, no, that wouldn't explode.
No, it's got to be some form ofcarbon.
Yeah, it's got to be somepowder.
Yeah, something, something thatis crazy.
And then there's more.
The professor was trying thesenew electrical cures.
The battery was just invented,like nine years earlier, so he's
(45:38):
all about this stuff.
And the electrical cure beganwhen the staff would wheel in a
contraption that was describedby Wilhelm as a magnificent,
large, mahogany machine.
Interesting, yeah, huh, this islike their version of a
defibrillator or something.
I don't know, because it saysthat he would sit for 10 minutes
(46:02):
, bound with chains, on a stool.
Okay, and the stool was on aglass-legged table.
So then they would sendelectrical currents through the
chains that he's attached to,like bound with, but the current
wouldn't bother Wilhelm unlesssomeone brushed against his coat
(46:23):
and then sparks would come out,okay, and it would shock him if
someone touched him, but otherthan that he was fine.
He was fine, okay, I don't knowwhat that is, okay, um, and
wilhelm was very impressed andhe said that the professor was a
wonderful man, great, yeah,there was no mention of like
(46:44):
what symptoms this helped, justthe general heart stuff, like
you know.
You know, his heart hurt, hischest hurt, right, that kind of
just pain in his chest is allit's really explained as
interesting.
I wonder if they have one ofthese machines somewhere in a
museum, maybe like irregularheartbeats and things like that,
like a pacemaker, like that'smaybe, yeah, what that would do.
(47:08):
But the people feel that though,yeah, wilhelm did eventually
grow tired of the treatments.
I think eventually he did startto feel like electricity coming
and like it wasn't fun for himanymore because he was receiving
them daily and they werecausing oh, sometimes I forget
what I write they were causingincreasingly unpleasant
(47:28):
sensations, oh, okay, okay.
So at first it was fine, andthen he was like I'm done, this
is a lot.
When wilhelm was not undergoinglike medical treatment, he
would look through old books forfolk tales and folk songs.
He was also very interested inthis too from their friend
savini.
Oh, I also forgot to mentionthat at some point during all
(47:50):
this, jacob sent a collection offairy tales that he himself
collected to a friend for theirchild.
Oh so they have this.
They just don't really knowwhat to do with it.
Yet right back to wilhelm.
Six months later, wilhelm wasfinally better and able to
return home.
He felt better.
Things were getting, his heartrhythm was better.
(48:11):
So maybe that electric stuffdid help him.
Yeah, maybe it paced his heart.
It was temporary, like Right,but it helped, yeah.
Before Wilhelm returned home,though, he went on a trip to
Berlin with his friends, withone of his friends paying for
him to go.
I had to look that up.
I was like Wilhelm, y'all arepoor, you can't be going to
Berlin, but his friend paid.
They don't have friends.
Well, they do have somescholarly friends.
(48:33):
They have like a group of likethree or four, and the names pop
up over and over again, butSavini's the main one.
I didn't want to get tooconfusing, got it.
So, friends, thank you for notbeing confusing.
Yeah, I try.
Wilhelm met artists and writerswhile he was in Berlin, and
Berlin was to Wilhelm what Pariswas to Jacob.
It helped culture him, openedhis eyes.
(48:54):
He saw more literature, moreart, and he was very inspired to
just be among the writers andartists.
He didn't really want to be alaw person anymore.
He was like I like this, thisis what I want to do.
He grew up.
Yeah, wilhelm did return toKassel in December of 1809 and
reunited once again with brotherJacob.
Now, by this time, the Frenchsecret police were everywhere,
(49:20):
the French had taken over andthe Germans were now speaking
French and taking on Frenchcustoms.
The brothers felt massivepressure to obtain the German
culture and preserve it beforeit was gone forever.
So they kicked into high gearand started collecting stories.
That's where we're going to end.
Part one.
The Brothers Grimm.
(49:41):
I know who knew their childhoodis like a fairy tale.
It is.
Now I get it.
Now I'm understanding theirstories more and more.
Yes, yeah, and we're not evenreally going to talk too much
about the stories they did,because they didn't write a lot
of the stories.
They did get them from France,from Austria, from Germany, from
(50:02):
Sweden.
They wanted a Germanicpreservation more than like a
country preservation.
They were looking more for theGermanic people.
But we'll get more into that, ok, yeah, so this will be three
parts.
That was a lot and we didn'teven get into the storytelling.
Sorry, yes, but I felt likeit's perfect because it's, you
(50:23):
know, mid-september.
It's technically spooky season.
I know it's fairy tale season.
Yes, having a three-part grimepisode is gonna be be great.
Yes, perfect timing.
Yay, so we are done.
And you get two more episodeswith my twin, sam.
Yay, I hope you guys can tellthe difference in our voices.
I can't.
I can't Stop laughing, like me.
(50:46):
God damn it.
Our cadence is too much thesame.
Alright, well, while you'rewaiting for the next Grimm
Brother episode to come out,please follow me on Instagram at
Borrowed Bones Podcast.
Also, if you could like andfollow us on Apple Podcasts,
spotify, anywhere you listen,engagement really, really helps.
I get really bored, sad andlonely.
(51:06):
So please comment and like.
She has a twin, but she'slonely, just like Jacob and
Wilhelm.
Do you want your instagram?
Do you want?
Do you want to throw out yourinstagram handle, or do you not
give a fuck?
I don't give a fuck.
You have a private account?
Yeah, it's not.
Yeah, it's private.
I don't really participate byposting.
I usually just you don't doanything, I don't do.
(51:26):
Yeah, I don't post anythinganywhere at all.
Well, I don't have facebook, soI don't know what your life is
like on there.
I don't do that either.
Okay, okay, so you're notmissing anything.
Hooray, we communicate outsideof social media.
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,boom, boom.
All right, thank you, bye, bye.
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