September 24, 2025 • 60 mins
The second part of our Brothers Grimm series follows Jacob and Wilhelm through their publication of fairy tales and their groundbreaking academic work during a turbulent period in German history.
Sources:
Britannica.com, The Gottingen Seven, National Endowment for the Humanities, Grimm's Law Podcast Episode, Britannica.com Congress of Vienna.
E-Mail the show at BorrowedBonesPodcast@proton.me
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone.
I'm Sarah and I'm Sam andyou're listening to Borrowed
Bones.
You guys didn't realize that atall, but we switched.
We switched places.
I'm Sarah and I'm Sam and youstill are listening to Borrowed
Bones, a podcast about fucked up, interesting and toxic families
(00:20):
.
This is our second part ofBrothers grim, and sam is still
here, hello.
Even though no one can tell usapart, yeah, our family's even
having trouble telling us apartwith our voices, yep, so, um,
sorry, but I don't know.
We're gonna push through.
I was born with it.
(00:42):
Yeah, we were born this way.
All right, we left off part one,just a little refresher, with
the French fully taking over.
And there's King JeromeBonaparte is now the king of
Westphalia, the region they allput together, and Jacob is now
the librarian for the king.
Ok, and remember, he hasflexibility within this role so
(01:05):
he can study, work and searchfor those fairy tales, collect,
preserve the culture.
All of that's happening.
There are also other projectsthat jacob's working on in the
background.
They're not only working onthese fairy tales.
They're very academic scholarslike they.
They're very into words andstories and language and grammar
(01:28):
and definitions, everythingboring about words.
Jacob is very interested in Allthe boring stuff.
Yes, he's into it.
Yes, he does view the fairytales as important still, but
Wilhelm was the one that reallywas the driving force for, like,
(01:48):
collecting all the tales.
Jacob kind of gets more creditof being the the main grim
brother, but Wilhelm really didthe most for the fairy tales.
Okay, jacob did a lot withinhis field so he did great things
for that, but Wilhelm is thefairy tale guy.
So by this time when Jacob'sworking at the library they're
(02:09):
like into the fairy tales.
Now they're writing them.
So right now, at this point,they're focused on collecting
the stories.
Okay, and they don't reallywrite them ever.
What like they?
I think they have a couple ofstories they do write from
completely original, but I don'treally know what they are.
They collect stories, ok, sowe'll talk about it.
(02:31):
Yes, ok, they began byresearching and collecting
written works.
That's how they startedcollecting stories.
They, because they work inlibraries and they research and
that's what they had.
But they knew that there wasmore to it.
They knew that there was moreout there that has not been
written down yet.
It's all folklore, it's allverbal.
(02:51):
So they began to search.
They spoke with housekeepers,mothers, soldiers that were
passing through.
Anyone like kind of normal, Iguess, anyone that's just been
around, anyone like kind ofnormal, I guess Anyone that's
just been around.
And the brothers would publishthe first volume of.
(03:11):
I did not.
I forgot to look up how topronounce this.
Oh no, the English version isChildren's and Household Tales.
Okay, so they finally publishedtheir first volume of
Children's and Household TalesOkay, in 1812.
All from stories they justcollected from people, yep, and
(03:33):
all they did was just write themdown.
Yes, they said that's what yousaid.
I'm writing it down.
We're preserving history here.
Yes, this was five days beforeChristmas, so it was open to the
public just in time for theholidays to buy things and give
as gifts, and this was fairlywell received.
They sold over 900 copiesduring their first three years
(03:55):
that it was out.
So, like, not too bad, too bad,but nothing really of like
notoriety.
Okay, just enough for them tobe like we did it.
Yay, just enough for them to belike we did it.
Yay, people compared theimportance of this book and work
to Martin Luther's translationof the Bible into German back in
the 1520s.
What, like?
The scholars and academics intheir world were like this is so
(04:18):
important.
This is just as important asMartin Luther making the Bible
German Wow yeah, luther makingthe Bible German Wow yeah.
So they knew, I think, becausethe French being there, you know
the people taking it over.
This is like Germanic historyyes, very important.
(04:39):
This was not for children,though.
It had no illustrations.
It had like notations in itthat Jacob would make like
scholarly notes.
It had graphic violence andsexual nature to it.
It was more of those storiesthat you tell kids to scare them
.
Okay, and it does tell a story.
Usually it's not like a singsongy rhyme, nothing fun really.
(05:00):
Yeah, another interesting thingI noticed, or I found out, was
that there were no stepmothers.
So there was snow white in thefirst edition.
There was cinderella.
All those stories were in thefirst edition, but they had real
mothers.
So snow white's real mom wastrying to kill her in the
(05:22):
original, yeah, so things likethat.
Interesting Wilhelm, though heargued that it could be for kids
.
He said that if he had kids hewould tell them this and he
looked at Jacob and was like ourmother told us stories just
like this growing up, likewhat's the problem?
But Jacob just viewed it moreas a like poetry, moments in
(05:45):
time, something to capture.
Yeah, for history.
Yes, he even said that it wasfor the oldest and most serious
people.
Oh, ok, yeah.
So basically that was like afuck you, wilhelm, you are wrong
, this is for the oldest andmost serious.
Yeah, that's kind of how Jacobwas.
But Wilhelm was like I don'tcare, I don't care, it's for
(06:08):
kids, I like it.
Yep.
So with the mild success of thefirst book, the brothers were
ready to move on to the secondvolume of Children's and
Household Tales.
So they have multiple editions.
So the first edition.
Now they're making a secondvolume of the first edition.
Got it?
They redo this time and timeagain, and this is why people
(06:28):
think they wrote them, becausethey start to really edit a lot.
Okay, their second volume grewvery quickly.
They had a good amount ofsupporters this time, so they
were able to talk to more people.
People were coming to them nowwith stories and even though the
brothers were making headwaywith their second volume,
(06:50):
napoleon was still around.
He was still doing stuff.
But it's now 1812 andNapoleon's army was failing.
They were in Russia at thispoint and you can't really fight
Russia Like the land itself isharsh.
Yeah, and Napoleon was just toofar away, and so the French were
starting to get pushed back andnow they're being pushed back
(07:11):
into Prussia and King Jerome waslike I know how this is gonna
go, this is not gonna be goodfor us French people here.
So he told Jacob to pack up theHessian books and the treasures
and to send them all to France,all the German art and
literature he's trying to steal,and he's asking Jacob to send
(07:33):
it To do it.
Yeah, jacob was very upset, hewas horrified at the thought of
losing all of this and he didhis best to convince the king
that these things were not worthtaking.
And he was pretty successful.
He still took some stuff, butJacob was like literally saving
Germany's art and literature.
That is wild.
(07:53):
I had no idea.
You don't think that.
Why would you?
Right, I never thought of that.
Strange, as this is happening,wilhelm is still collecting
fairy tales.
Oh, wilhelm, mm-hmm, just inhis own little world over there.
He really is Jacob's serious,like in some serious business,
trying to, you know, save theworld, pretty much, save the
(08:14):
German world.
And Wilhelm's like I want morestories.
Yep, yeah, here I go, prettymuch.
Yeah, that's none of mybusiness, but the stories are.
So here I go.
Pretty much.
Yeah, that's none of mybusiness, but the stories are.
So here I go.
The Grimm family.
They made a lot of sacrificesto support the Hessian army
Jacob and Wilhelm's youngerbrothers, carl and Ludwig.
(08:36):
They fought in the army and in1813, jacob was called back to
official service and he becamethe secretary to the diplomats.
So he's working for thegovernment again.
Because it's Hessian again, orwith still Westphalia, so, yeah,
german, I don't know.
At this point it's so messy.
I'm not a world history girl,I'm an American history girl.
(08:57):
Yeah, okay, so I don't knowthis very well.
Okay, but he's now working forhis people again, okay, in the
government, got it?
Not the, not the French, theFrench are gone, the French are
gone, they're gone.
Now, jacob working for thegovernment again.
He was sent to Paris to helpnegotiate peace on behalf of the
Hessian government, okay, andhe quickly became bored once he
(09:20):
was there.
But he loved it so much thefirst time, yeah, and now he's
bored.
But he loved it so much thefirst time, yeah, and now he's
bored Because he's working likein the government, right, yeah,
he's not doing research withSavini, his friend, yeah, so to
help him get over this boredom.
Jacob would hunt for some morefolktales while he was in France
.
He couldn't do it as much asWilhelm, though, but he tried.
(09:43):
He also would ask them in likea cheeky way like have they
heard of children's andhousehold tales?
Like, have you heard of thiswork though?
Hmm, and I found thisinteresting.
Jacob even wrote letters to SirWalter Scott in Scotland about
fairy tales from his country.
Like, hey, do you have any youwant to give me?
Yeah, I'm collecting.
(10:05):
It's just interesting, thepeople they brush shoulders with
, I guess.
Right, right.
But no matter how busy Jacobkept himself, he was struggling
with being apart from Wilhelm.
Yet again, remember those boys.
He can't handle it.
But yet here he is in Parisagain.
Yep, without Wilhelm.
Jacob would write to hisbrother about how he missed home
(10:27):
and how he would dream ofWilhelm at night.
I just can't with them.
What is happening?
They're weird.
And Wilhelm's the same way,kind of he's a little more, not
as much.
So Wilhelm writes back,reassuring Jacob that, hey, your
desk and chairs are waiting foryou, along with a peaceful life
(10:47):
once you return.
Like you're good?
Yep, it's all good, yeah.
So while Jacob was in Paris, hewas then sent to Vienna, austria
, in the summer of 1814.
The European leaders were allmeeting up to redefine the
borders after napoleon messed itall up, and they were meeting
in vienna for this.
(11:08):
Okay, so what is this a part ofit?
Is this like a actual name ofthis, like summit?
Oh, yes, history, yes it is.
This was called the congress ofvienna.
Okay, and he was a part of that.
Jac Grimm was there, big deal,helping put Europe back together
.
He's a big deal, he really is.
I didn't realize he was thisbig of a deal.
(11:29):
He's in the background.
I mean, he's not like adiplomat, no Itself, but he
definitely was the backbone ofthe diplomats.
He's there At that time, yeah,and his job while he was there
was to translate documents asthe Hessian delegations met with
Tsar Alexander I of Russia andthe King of Prussia, along with
other nobles that come fromAustria and Great Britain.
(11:52):
The best of the best, they'reall there.
The rabbit holes I've gone downon the Tsars of Russia, oh well
, jacob probably knows some ofthem.
I don't know the rabbit holes.
I know some of them.
I don't know the rabbit holes.
Jacob was not impressed, though,with the Congress of Vienna.
He wrote a letter to Wilhelm,he stated that either nothing
(12:14):
happens or when it finally does,it's underhanded, petty, vulgar
and moribund, as if no greatdays lay ahead.
I had to look that word up,moribund.
Yeah, I was like um, it meansat the point of death, wow.
Word of the day yeah, moribund.
I wish I was better at editing.
(12:36):
I would add like a little wordof the day yeah, moribund.
But yeah, he really hated it.
He also said that our urgentbasic needs are so clear that a
little child could lead us onthe right path.
Politics are still the sametoday.
My man, yep, still the same,doesn't change.
(12:57):
Jacob grew very restless.
He was away for two years, wow,and he hated government work
and he was often scolded for notbeing social enough.
He just became like a hermit.
He just wanted to do his job bedone and he just wanted to go
home.
And you can see thisaggravation in him and some of
the letters he writes to Wilhelm.
He starts poking at Wilhelmsaying you're not writing me
(13:23):
enough.
Like, what are you doing?
I'm all here, all alone, andyou're not even writing me.
So then Wilhelm writes back andhe details and outlines every
letter that he's written toJacob and he also says hey, man,
the post isn't really reliable,yeah, and he mentions I've sent
things out on these dates.
You might not have receivedthese letters yet, like.
(13:45):
He's just like what's your deal?
Right, you're being a stagefive right now, straight on
stage five, and we're brothers.
Yeah, we're not lovers, we'rebrothers.
Yes, don't get it twisted.
When you read their lettersit's hard to like.
I would love to give theletters to someone and not have
the names down, yeah, and justbe like what do you think?
(14:07):
This is almost like goingthrough like ann lister's
journal.
Oh man, um, so back at home,will helm was appointed
secretary to the librarian.
Reminds me of like assistant tothe regional manager.
I don't know what that meansAssistant.
(14:28):
So Wilhelm is secretary to thelibrarian.
The job wasn't very great, itdidn't pay well, but it was
something.
While working, wilhelm was stillhunting down fairy tales for
that second volume.
And Wilhelm did finish thesecond volume of children's and
household tales and he sent acopy to Jacob in 1815, jacob
(14:52):
still being a little bitch boy,and he criticizes the actual
paper, the physical paper, andhe's like it's too thin, you
shouldn't have used it and theprice is too high for such
shitty quality.
Oh, my God, wilhelm did notrespond.
There's no response found and IFYI Next letter.
Fyi, jacob, I did not respondto this letter.
(15:13):
In case you were wondering yeah, yeah, this one didn't get lost
.
This one didn't get lostBecause it was never sent.
I just really imagine himtaking the letter, crumbling it
up, throwing it away and justlike rolling his eyes trash,
yeah, just, this is trash.
This is trash.
Yep, wilhelm did write jacobwith the news, though, that
their aunt had passed away,their aunt henrietta zimmer,
(15:36):
that they lived with in thecastle.
Jacob finally returned home inthe fall of 1815, and he was
putting the finishing touches ona project of his called german
legends, and this was storiesthat were not fit for fairy
tales at all.
Okay, it's just something elsehe's been working on.
I like to mention a few oftheir other projects, so we know
(15:56):
that they're working on amillion things at once.
Yeah, I'm not even mentioningeverything they're working on
either, it's so much much.
He published German Legends,and then he published a second
volume of it as well, in 1818.
But both Jacob and Wilhelm arecredited for pretty much all of
their works, even though onewill work on it more than the
other.
They just shared everything.
(16:17):
Yeah, I feel like they just gothrough life like they're one
person.
Right After German Legends waspublished, jacob received a new
job because the position abovehim, the person, passed away
Okay, and so he was able to moveright up there.
So Wilhelm then took Jacob's oldposition.
They each moved up a spot.
Then the brothers would worktogether for several years.
(16:38):
During this time, jacob wasworking on quite a big project.
It consumed him quite a bit.
So this is the main reason whyWilhelm started collecting a lot
of the stories on his own.
Okay, we're going to getacademic and technical, because
it's Jacob and it's difficultfor me to talk about, so I'm
going to do my best, okay.
(16:59):
Okay, the project that Jacobwas working on changed how we
view language forever.
Yes, I am speechless.
I am stunned.
I don't know what to say aboutthat, so let us continue.
Yes, there is a grammar rulethat's called Grimm's Law.
(17:20):
This is after Jacob, okay, andhis project that he was working
on was called German Grammar.
So that's the book that he waswriting German Grammar.
Yep, he's very straightforward.
Okay, german legends, germangrammar.
And because Jacob studiedlanguage, he was very curious
and fascinated by the history oflanguage and the evolution of
(17:41):
language.
Okay, I'm going to try andexplain Grimm's Law.
I listened to a podcast thatwas just about Grimm's Law, an
episode.
It was an hour long, just aboutthis.
So if you are confused, aftermy explanation, I did my best I
will put it in the show notes,the link to this episode of the
podcast that I listened to.
(18:02):
All right, all right, so beforeJacob came along, people were
always interested in studyinglanguage.
They knew something washappening with it, like OK, it
evolves and changes, but theykind of just accepted it.
And Jacob realized whilestudying languages that certain
ones have similar patterns toothers.
He realized that Sanskrit isrelated to German as much as it
(18:27):
is related to Latin and Greek.
They all come from the sameancient Indo-European language.
Okay, he noticed thatphonetically, certain letters
sounded the same or they wereused for the same words or
sounds.
He just started noticingcertain patterns.
For example, patera in Greek isfather and then it is pater or
(18:55):
pater I'm not really exactlysure in Latin, but then it's
vater in German and in Englishit's father.
So you have an F for father, aV for vater, a P for pater or
pater, and they all mean dad orfather.
Okay, so Jacob's like this can'tbe a coincidence, right?
This is too similar, too closetogether, and so that's
(19:18):
basically it.
He sees the pattern they seemto all stem from the same
Indo-European language and hesays that we can use this to
further understand where ourlanguage will evolve to, and
understand how we movedthroughout the world, and kind
of see, it's kind of likefinding fossils, right, little
traces of history, right, that'sthe best way I can explain it.
(19:39):
Well, that was a good job.
Okay, I understand itcompletely.
And now I feel like I'm on acidand know the secrets of the
universe.
Yes, he unlocked it all.
Yes, so, yes, so he discoveredit.
At first it was called the LawDiscovered by Jacob Grimm, and
then it eventually turned intoGrimm's Law, and then the book
(19:59):
German Grammar was a bestsellerin 1819.
Yeah, fair tales be damned,this grammar though, this
grammar, though it slaps, let'sget it Like.
I don't understand the Germansback then.
No, no, that would not be myfirst choice.
No, I'd do German legends first, yeah, yeah, and then probably
the children's and householdtales.
(20:20):
Yeah, wilhelm was working onsome medieval shit too in the
background as well, so you'dprobably probably be interested
in that.
Yeah, I feel like Wilhelm is ismore my brother, yeah, than
Jacob is my brother, yeah.
So if I'm gonna pick a brother,it's gonna be Wilhelm, because
he seems not as serious.
Yeah, for sure, like I can seethat Wilhelm is like I want to
(20:43):
go listen to some stories.
Yeah, I want to tell them.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I like listening.
And here we are today.
All right, and now we're in1821.
And Wilhelm, because the Germangrammar was so well received in
1819, he wrote another editionthat was published in 1821.
Okay, in 1819, he wrote anotheredition that was published in
(21:06):
1821.
As Jacob was working on thesecond edition of German Grammar
, wilhelm was working on thesecond edition of Children's and
Household Tales the secondedition, not a new volume.
So he's starting a whole newfairy tales, new stories, new
collection.
Wilhelm wanted this one to bemore for children this time
around, but he wanted to keepthe sex in and the out-of-wed
(21:29):
pregnancies in as well.
Specifically, well, like hewanted to keep everything in
there, but maybe soften some ofthe words, or maybe he basically
was making it less academic,not necessarily better for kids,
right, he said you can foolyourself into thinking that what
can be removed from a book canalso be removed from real life.
(21:51):
He's like.
These kids have to learn aboutit someday.
I mean, that's true.
I liked that quote.
He's anti-censorship he is, andI'm all for it.
Yeah, europe has way lesscensorship than we do with, like
nudity, sex, that kind of stuff.
I don't know if they censor inother ways, I'm sure, but I
think we would be surprised tosee what's on daytime tv there
(22:12):
there's probably boobies andpeepees, exactly.
Yeah, I'm sorry my nanny sidecame out boobies and peepees.
That was stupid.
I feel dumb.
I feel like an idiot.
The millennial urges talk likethis.
I hate when we laugh at thesame time.
All right, he did, however, takeout um inappropriate phrasing,
(22:36):
like he ended up editingrapunzel.
He changed it to where theprince does not impregnate
rapunzel, because that's theoriginal story, okay.
He changes it to where, instead, prince does not impregnate
rapunzel, because that's theoriginal story.
Okay.
He changes it to where, instead, he writes they loved each
other dearly, yes, okay.
So now we're starting to seehow they're putting their
fingers in.
Oh, that was bad, that wassomething.
(22:57):
Okay, that was something.
So now we're gonna see howthey're putting their stamp on
things.
Okay, that was better, let's gopostal.
Yeah, and that's why you'll seethings like the Grimm's version
of Cinderella, the Grimm'sversion of Snow White, the
Grimm's version of this, of that, because they'll edit things.
(23:17):
Okay, as Jacob and Wilhelm weredoing their things, working on
their projects, the count thatthe brothers worked for I don't
know if I mentioned that theywork for a count.
I don't think so.
Okay, I got nothing.
I don't think so.
I think we just talked abouthow they have a boss.
Okay, well, they do work for acount.
It doesn't really matter, butI'll say count multiple times.
(23:38):
Okay, yeah, the count, theywork for a count.
And this count ends up passingaway and the count's son took
his place.
The brothers enjoyed working forthe dad.
They got along well.
They were given freedom to dotheir own work, as long as they
got their shit done.
Yeah.
The son, however, was just alittle prick.
He just was a jerk, like for noreason.
(24:01):
He was just like a nepo baby.
Yeah, that's what it soundslike.
Yeah, the Grimm's didn't getalong with him very well at all.
This new count the son.
He moved his mistress into themain house where the brothers
lived, so they were kicked outaround christmas time in 1821.
They still worked for him,though they just didn't get to
live there.
Okay, yeah, so they had to moveabove a blacksmith shop and
(24:24):
Jacob called it a dark hole.
Oh, but they still worked forthis guy.
Yeah, that would suck, thatwould.
Yeah, is there no more roomanywhere else in this place?
I don't know.
That's where they had to move,that's where they went.
Yep, they were not happy aboutthis.
So they're working here for afew years.
Now we're in 1823.
(24:57):
And there's a British man namedEdgar Taylor who translated some
of the Grimm fairy tale stories.
Instead of getting mad becausethey didn't get royalties or
anything, this is just straightup stolen work.
It's just translated and addedsome fun things to it.
The Grimms saw this and theygave him credit for giving them
more success and an even betterreputation.
(25:17):
So they were kind of like youknow what Thanks?
Yeah, that worked out, and theydidn't, like I said, they
didn't get any money from it.
Yeah, that worked out, and theydidn't like I said, they didn't
(25:40):
get any money from it.
But the brothers liked how theEnglish version was a little bit
softer word wise than in theGerman version, and this also
gave the brothers the idea to.
I've shown you they were drawnby Ludwig.
He drew his mom, his dad, his Idon't know if he drew his dad,
his dad died really young, sonot his dad, but he drew his mom
, brother, sister, all of them.
So seeing this, jacob thoughtmaybe we can soften our version.
We don't have to use this highGerman, this intellectual stuff.
(26:01):
We can make it easier for kids.
We can get rid of thosescholarly side notes.
Yes, it can actually be forchildren.
Yes, so they finally releasedan abridged version of the
children's and household tales.
So they made it smaller,because the first one had, like
I think, 85 or 86 fairy tales init.
Wow, yeah, the abridged one had50.
Okay, yeah, really condensed it.
(26:21):
Yes, 50.
Okay, yeah, really condensed it.
Yes, and this was published inDecember of 1825.
Okay, also in 1825,.
Wilhelm marries no, yes, no, hemarries Dorchen Wild.
(26:41):
They were friends sincechildhood.
Okay, their families were closebecause her parents died when
she was young, so she hung outwith the Grimms quite a bit.
And Wilhelm and Jacob are intheir 30s at this point.
Late bloomers yeah, I don'tknow if this story is true or
not, but it's speculated thatWilhelm only married after he
and Jacob had a conversation andagreed that one of them needs
to get married in order to havea household, to maintain the
(27:05):
household and get things done,because they were always working
Right.
So Wilhelm loved Dorchen, but Idon't think marriage was on his
mind until they had, like aconference about it.
They actually had to talk aboutit, yeah, as one person.
Yes, one of us needs to getmarried.
Yeah, so somebody can dosomething around the house.
Yep, and Jacob would remain alifelong bachelor and he would
(27:29):
live with Dorchen and Wilhelm.
You know, it's all making sense, fairy tales.
Yep, the Grimm brothers.
Yep, wilhelm and Dorchen namedtheir firstborn son after Jacob.
He was born in December of 1826.
He did pass away, though,unfortunately at eight months
(27:50):
old.
Aww, yeah, in 1828, two yearslater, dorchen does give birth
to another baby boy and theyname him Herman, and he survives
Okay, and Jacob and Herman getalong very well.
Jacob is like the best dotinguncle, like he just loves Herman
, and the way this relationshipis talked about reminds me so
(28:12):
much of Jacob when he was alittle boy and his aunt
Schlemmer.
Oh yeah, the way that they justloved each other.
Yeah, so I feel like Jacobwants he?
I feel like he almost justwants to be this role.
That's like he's the the wayhis aunt was.
His aunt was the oldest in herline of siblings and she never
had kids and she moved in withher brother and his wife and
(28:33):
helped take care of their kidsand Jacob and her were besties.
Yeah, I just think Jacob islike this is my role, this is
who I am.
This is passed down to me.
Yep, it, this is who I am.
This was passed down to me.
Yep, it's almost like it waswritten for him.
It was written Herman even gaveJacob a nickname.
Herman would call him a Papa, aPapa Uh-huh, which is baby
(28:53):
babble form of Papa.
They do say Papa in Germany.
Okay, so this baby decides togive him the name a Papa and it
stayed with Jacob their wholelife.
Yeah, and I thought that wascute because it's like more than
an uncle, but like it's likesecond dad, right, I thought
that was just really cute.
That is really cute.
I was a nanny for a long time.
So little nicknames that babiesgive are just.
(29:14):
I just love them.
I'll forever be Rara to some ofthose kids because they
couldn't say Sarah and they grewit, and they just grew up and
they always just call me Rara.
I love it so much anyway, fuckthem kids.
(29:35):
No, I'm just kidding, I'mtotally.
I just had to say it.
I came out of nowhere.
Oh sorry, that's really thatcame into my head, I'm sorry.
Oh okay, you can totally editthat out, because I I'm not.
That was funny.
Come on, that's what came to myhead, we'll see what makes it.
Oh, okay.
By this point, wilhelm and Jacobwere scholarly successes.
(29:55):
They were well-known withintheir field, within the
academics.
Their reputations were great.
Yes, jacob even receivedhonorary doctorates from
different universities.
Yeah, I don't want to say thenames because they're German
universities, but I can stillhear you.
That's what dad would say.
(30:17):
Oh yeah, he knows some German.
He does know some German.
During this time, though, thebrothers were still working for
that count boy who hates his dad.
He wasn't nice, he was such alittle prick, like that's all I
can think of when I read abouthim.
I don't, I don't like givinghim a title, like he's a little
count boy, little count boy,okay.
(30:38):
And there was a point that cameup where jacob should have been
promoted and then Wilhelm wouldhave been promoted because
someone passed away.
That was higher up, yep.
However, this count gave theposition to someone else.
He was playing favorites.
Jacob was pissed and he feltsnubbed after working for the
government for over 20 years.
(30:59):
He was like you're going topass me up, me, right, jacob
Grimm?
Yeah, what, I'm already livingabove a blacksmith.
Yeah, what, I'm already livingabove a blacksmith.
Yeah, sure, because of you, youalready kicked us out of our
home.
So the brothers were just doneand they found work elsewhere,
at the University of Göttingenin Hanover.
I did look that one up.
Good job.
Yes, I don't know, I'm notsaying it correctly.
(31:21):
Still, I've listened to it amillion times.
The German dialect is difficult, right.
They found work at theUniversity of Göttingen in
Hanover, and Jacob was 44 andWilhelm's 43.
Okay, in the winter of 1829,jacob and Wilhelm said goodbye
to Kassel, where they live.
(31:42):
It's been their home for somany years now.
Their family was still inCastle, aside from one of their
brothers, ferdinand, who wasworking in Berlin.
Their sister, lottie, livedthere with her husband.
Their brother, carl, worked asa tutor, teaching English and
French, and Ludwig was gettingmarried soon.
He's the artist and eventuallyhe would become an art professor
(32:03):
.
Okay, their mother and closestrelatives are also buried in
castles.
They're leaving.
They're leaving everyone Bye,yep.
But they felt this was just thebest future for their family.
Right?
Wilhelm was going to be thelibrarian at the university and
Jacob would be a professor ofphilology, which is a study of
(32:24):
language, as well as a librarian.
That's very fitting.
Oh, yeah, he's like aphilologist first and foremost.
Isn't that fun to say, yeah,philologist, philologist.
It's almost like kind of likeChristmas, like fa-la-la-la-la.
Oh, yes, yes, I was like it'snothing like Christmas Actually,
it is Fa-la-la A gist.
(32:46):
Actually.
Cannabis, fa la la, la, la, la,la la la gist, exactly.
I'm never going to unsee that.
Now I'm sorry, because that'sall I see.
Get ready for my BarbraStreisand jingle bells.
Every year I sing it to thefamily.
It's my favorite thing in theentire world.
(33:06):
I know every word.
I love Barbara.
I mean, who doesn't loveBarbara?
But your rendition is fantastic, awfully entertaining.
It is awfully entertaining.
That is so true, so true.
All right, back to the brothers.
(33:30):
When they left, they wentwithout Dorchen and Wilhelm's
son Herman, because Dorchen wassix months pregnant at the time
and she wasn't feeling wellright before their journey, so
she had to stay behind and getbetter.
That was the plan anyway.
Well, when Dorchen got better,herman fell ill and then which
delayed the departure even moreWilhelm ended up going back to
castle to help Dorchen withHermann, and they made the
(33:50):
journey back to Göttingen in aheated carriage.
Wow, yeah.
So I looked up how carriageswere heated.
Yeah, I was like what?
Because Wilhelm was like we'llget the sun, we'll do this.
And she didn't want to gobecause it was winter and she's
like Hermann just got over thisillness, we don't want him out
in the cold again.
So then Wilhelm's like heatedcarriage, no problem, they just
(34:11):
use those portable foot warmersor those Like in Little Women
when she was sick, and they putin the bed.
Yeah, like that, they just havethose in there.
They put hot coals in, yeah forsure.
Yep, super easy.
I was like do they have likegas lamps in there?
Because that's really unsafe.
Do they build a campfire?
Yeah, because this doesn't seemsafe.
(34:32):
No, no, it's not that extreme,it's just hot coals, probably.
Yep, that's it Interesting, andlike an iron kind of thing, and
they cover it and you put yourfeet by it and done and done.
Now that everyone's in Göttingen, it was difficult for the Grimm
brothers to really acclimate totheir new home and their new
work-life balance.
Jacob and Wilhelm did not likethe city.
(34:52):
They didn't find it appealing.
They felt the city lacked charm.
There's a river that passesthrough the city, but it was
narrow, muddy, more like a creek.
Okay, they just didn't reallylike it.
There wasn't any magic to it.
No, no romance.
Yeah, they didn't realize thatthey've been living in a
(35:20):
fairytale life literally now.
Right.
Basically, they're like anormal city, what they wanted.
And there wasn't much oversightfrom the university.
They weren't breathing downtheir necks.
There also wasn't really muchof an emphasis on religion.
It was more of a secularuniversity which allowed more
freedom.
And during the first few yearsof the Grimm's working there,
(35:42):
the university's reputationcontinued to grow in a very
positive way.
There was a lot of advancementsand scientific achievements
that were done there.
It was just like doing great.
They didn't like the town orcity, but they were doing good
work.
But even with all this happening, jacob and Wilhelm still didn't
feel like things were quiteright.
One thing was that even thoughJacob had the freedom to do his
(36:06):
job really well, he didn't havea lot of extra time to do his
side projects because he was alibrarian and a professor and he
just couldn't be bothered bythat kind of stuff.
He's like I have real work todo, shaping young minds.
Don't care, he doesn't careabout being a professor, he just
does it because he's supposedto.
Yeah, now we're jumping to 1830.
(36:29):
They're still living at theuniversity, working there, and
Wilhelm's family was growing.
Dorchen had a second baby boyand his name is Rudolf, in March
of 1830.
Oh, mm-hmm, pisces, oh, yeah,nice.
A few months later they gotword that Lottie's baby girl
passed away.
(36:49):
Oh, lottie, I don't know howshe passed away, but she did.
And while the Grimms were inGöttingen, there was another
revolution in Paris in 1830.
And Germany was watching,mm-hmm, and Germany was watching
.
At this time, in Paris, theFrench king was forced out by
(37:11):
the people due to his favoritismtoward the nobles Sure and he
put on a pretty heavyrestriction of free speech.
Ooh, and this was not good,because what they did in France
was they censored an essay thatwas written by a docent that was
affiliated with the Universityof Göttingen and that basically
(37:34):
is someone who is an adjunctprofessor, like they're not
quite a professor, but they'realmost a professor, so someone
that worked at the universitywrote an essay that was not
allowed to be published inFrance.
Okay, and that was the laststraw in the camel's back over
there.
Yeah, but because Germany'sinvolved.
(37:55):
Rioters took over the city inGöttingen in January of 1831.
They were like fuck this, fullcircle.
Yes, wow.
And they demanded that theirkingdom because, remember,
germany still has kingdoms thatthey wanted a liberal
constitution written for them.
They're like we want aconstitution, we want to make
sure that we're safe and takencare of and that you're not
(38:16):
going to do this same shit here.
Yeah, they paraded through thestreets wearing white armbands
and brandishing weapons.
The rioters threatened to setfire to the library and the
librarians had to stand watchthat night and day, meaning
Jacob and Wilhelm.
Several thousand troops weresent to stop this uprising in
(38:38):
the city, which lasted just overa week.
It was like quite a while.
I feel like to have a citydoing stuff.
Jacob didn't really like therioting.
He said it was despicable andhe blamed the rioters for the
reason.
Wilhelm got sick because hestayed up all night at the
library and then Wilhelm fellill and he got really sick and
(39:00):
Jacob thought he was going todie.
He did not Okay.
He was sick for a few weeks,though, and he ended up getting
better just in time for his 45thbirthday.
Good, so good to go, perfect.
Now, since the revolution inParis, germany was very uneasy,
still all over, and Jacob andWilhelm were keeping an eye on
the changing political climate.
(39:21):
They were like all right, we'relike right in the middle of it
yet again.
Here we are, here, we areAlways here.
They just find themselves there, yep.
So to prevent any sort ofrevolution from happening, the
kingdoms did agree to write aconstitution.
So we have the kingdoms ofSaxony, hessen and Hanover that
are like yep, people will dowhat you need.
(39:43):
We don't want, we don't wantthat, right?
Yep.
So everyone's like happy atthis point, but it's kind of
like this tense yeah, standoff,all right.
So that's happening in thebackground, ok.
Now also in 1831, wilhelmbecomes a professor for the
university.
He's still a librarian, buthe's allowed to be a professor
now too.
Wilhelm really liked it.
(40:04):
He was great at being aprofessor.
His classes were well attendedand he taught old German, old
German, yep, the language.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm guessing Wilhelm wasalso named a corresponding
member of the Prussian RoyalAcademy of Sciences in Berlin.
(40:26):
Yeah, I just like to give himcredit Very prestigious, because
not a lot of people give himcredit.
Yeah, yeah, he's doing stufftoo, he is, he's working.
Yeah, I like Wilhelm, I likehim.
In August of 1832, wilhelm andDortchen had their last child, a
little girl, and she was namedAuguste.
Augusta, auguste girl, and shewas named august, augusta,
(40:50):
august, a like august with an eat the end.
Yeah, um, probably augusta.
Yeah, kind of like thehenrietta, henrietta, I think.
Yeah, so wilhelm has two sonsherman, who's four, rudolph,
who's two, and then this newbaby girl, augusta.
I just I read this, and theseare some of herman's memories
that I wanted to talk about thathe has of his dad and his uncle
.
Okay, yeah, so Herman remembersin his early years that his
(41:11):
uncle, jacob, a papa, wouldalways be like hunched over his
desk, scribbling rapidly, can'tget everything out fast enough,
right?
And then how his dad, wilhelm,wrote slower, more thoughtfully,
and Jacob just couldn't get itdone fast enough.
Yeah, yeah, he said that hisfather and uncle enjoyed nature,
that they would use rocks andshells as paperweights and they
(41:35):
would also use pressed flowersand leaves as bookmarks.
I cannot with these two, I knowI cannot.
Weird and cute.
I don't know't think today ofany man today that would just
like use pressed flowers.
That is a that's terrible thatwe've evolved.
I know, cole, you need to startusing pressed flowers as
(41:58):
bookmarks.
Yeah, exactly, cole, I don'tthink he's gonna listen to these
.
He doesn't listen to these ever.
Oh, okay, well, if you startusing pressed flowers.
I know you've listened.
Anyway, dorjan also didn'treally like the new city.
I kind of forgot about her, butyeah, she didn't like it either
.
You know, everyone forgets her,everyone forgets the girls.
(42:20):
I know I'm sorry, dorjan, sorry, dorjan, you matter, you do,
but she would often write toLottie back in Castle Whenever
she was having a trip back homecoming up.
She'd be like All right, lottie, prepare some new clothing for
me, some new shawls, some newaccessories, because there was
nothing in Göttingen for them,like they just didn't like it.
Oh, in May of 1833, the Grimmswent home to Castle for a visit,
(42:44):
and they saw Lottie.
I think they stayed with her,and she was pregnant this time.
When they were there, though,lottie got really sick with
influenza, which put her intopremature labor, and she gave
birth one month early to a babygirl.
I don't know for sure if shesurvived or not.
I think she did, okay, but Ican't, I don't know that, like
(43:07):
the baby or Lottie, the baby,okay, I'm pretty sure the baby
survived, okay, don't know forsure, don't know exactly Got it.
Then, soon after this, wilhelmgot sick.
So then Jacob went back to workand Dorchen stayed to help with
Lottie and Wilhelm and like,okay, well, we're here now, yeah
, and then Dorchen got sick andthen Wilhelm was better, but he
(43:30):
stayed to care for Dorchen andLottie because Lottie's still
sick, she can't seem to shake it.
Dorchen recovered but Lottiedid not.
Oh, she got a spinal bacterialinfection, oh no, and she passed
away while Wilhelm was by herside.
Okay, yeah, jacob arrived toolate to say goodbye, but he did
visit her a few times while shewas six.
(43:53):
Lottie passed away in June of1833 at the age of 40.
She left behind her husband of11 years and her four children.
I don't know if that baby girlis a part of the four children
or not, but that's what I knowabout Lottie.
Okay, Now their brother,ferdinand, is in Berlin and he
was let go from his job thathe's had since 1815.
(44:16):
With no other prospects, wilhelmand Jacob convince Ferdinand to
stay with them and Ferdinandlives with them for a few years.
But one day in the summer of1836, ferdinand just them for a
few years.
But one day in the summer of1836, ferdinand just leaves out
of the blue.
He doesn't have a goodrelationship with the brothers,
he's kind of the outcast of thefamily.
Okay, and after disappearing hesends a cryptic and
(44:38):
unapologetic letter to Dorchenfrom another town, and he didn't
share his plans or what he wasdoing.
I couldn't find what the letterwas or what he said, but I
guess it was just like I leftand that's it.
I don't really know.
Wilhelm speculated that maybe hewas going to pursue the theater
because he liked the arts andhe liked to do that.
(44:59):
But Jacob said he's too lazy toeven remember his lines.
Oh, no, yeah, jacob andFerddinand did not get along.
No, no, no, yeah, I feel likejacob was the aggressor.
Jacob probably was theaggressor.
I do feel that way.
He seems that way.
Yeah, however, to jacob's dismay, it wasn't long until ferdinand
returned.
But jacob said no, you can'tlive with us anymore.
(45:21):
You can't snub jacob.
Yeah, you can't do those things.
He's dramatic and I think thatI'm dramatic and I think we
would either love each other orwe would really hate each other,
depending on what buttons arepushed.
Yeah, ferdinand, of course,left because he wasn't allowed
to live with Jacob, and heeventually settled in a small
town where he lived for the restof his life.
(45:43):
Okay, the brothers would sendhim a monthly allowance, though,
to help him out.
So they still, like, talked tohim.
Yeah, they just said you can'tlive with us, you can't sit with
us.
Sorry, you can't sit with us,you can't sit with us, ferdinand
.
Nope, early in 1834, wilhelm'sphysical state began to diminish
once again.
(46:03):
For six months he could barelytake care of any of his
responsibilities, and after herecovered, wilhelm was just
depressed and avoided socialgatherings for most of 1835,
1836.
Okay, he does get better.
He ends up pulling out of it,but every sickness that's coming
is just getting harder for himto shake, harder for him to
(46:25):
shake.
I'd just like to point that out.
Yeah, he struggles through life.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, we're going to getpolitical now again.
Alrighty, all right.
In 1837, the king of GreatBritain, uk, ireland, was also
the king of Hanover, so wherethe brothers live.
Okay, he died, and because hedidn't have a legitimate heir to
(46:52):
the throne, his niece, victoria, was crowned queen, all right,
so we have Queen Victoria, andthis was fine to be queen in UK
and Britain and all of that,yeah.
But the kingdom of Hanover,which is where Gotöttingen city
is, they had a rule that saidwomen not allowed like it's,
(47:12):
only can be a man.
So in Hanover specifically, itwas given to the dead king's
brother, ernest Augustus, and inGermany he's known as Ernst
August.
Okay, so he takes power in Juneof 1837.
And now he's the new king ofHanover and he has this
(47:32):
constitution that was written in1833 to protect everyone, right
, and he goes nope, I don't likeit.
And he is all about nobles andrestrictions and shutting things
down.
And he doesn't like theprofessors and the academics.
So he says no to thisconstitution, new rules.
(47:53):
And he says that everyone needsto swear allegiance to him,
including all the professors.
You all need to bow down, let'sgo.
Yep, they didn't like this.
Oh my God.
They said no, no, no, no, no,no.
And on the night of November17th, one of the Grimm's friends
, one of these scholars, wrote astatement of protest.
(48:13):
Okay, and it was stating thatthey were going to stay true to
the original oath to theconstitution.
We have an allegiance to theconstitution, not to you.
When you have so many differentpowers that take over you, you
have to.
You can't care anymore aboutthat.
Right Like.
You're just someone fromanother country that's coming in
.
You're not one of us.
Right Like.
You can't do this, right, yeah,we have an allegiance to
(48:37):
ourselves, exactly so.
The following day, six otherprofessors signed this statement
, along with the one who wroteit, so seven signatures are on
this statement saying, yeah, weagree, we're not doing this,
including Jacob and Wilhelm, andthey became known as the
Göttingen Seven.
Okay, this is a big thing.
(48:58):
Wow, it's like the Avengers.
Yeah, avengers assemble.
This is crazy.
Yeah, and the students of theuniversity immediately supported
it.
They were like hell.
Yeah, yeah, you know.
There's a rule of thumb as well,and I learned this from the
grims.
They say something to theeffect of you should always be
on the side of the students,because who has more time than
(49:21):
college students to be soinvested in everything?
Right like right.
I think that's just a good ruleof thumb.
Okay, yeah, we can take thatrule.
Yeah, I'll agree with it.
If students are protesting, thepowers that be.
There's probably a good reasonfor that.
Yep.
So the students supported thisand they made copies of this
(49:41):
statement of protest onsignatures and they distributed
them throughout the area.
They flooded the city with them.
They even sent them outside oftheir kingdom of Hanover and
they asked for newspapers topublish the statements.
And they were like, we need toget this out.
On December 4th, there was aJudiciary Committee meeting and
all seven professors admittedthat.
Yep, we did sign that, wefreely signed it.
(50:03):
What you gonna do?
All seven were fired.
Yes, and that's what happened.
Okay, I'm sure.
I'm sure there's more you know.
And jacob and a few others wereactually told to leave the
kingdom of hanover all together.
Wow, within three days, orlegal action would take place.
Yeah, okay, wilhelm wasn'tbanished from the area, he was
(50:26):
just fired, but Jacob wasbanished.
Yep.
Upon learning this, thestudents went into the streets
and they protested and some wereeven jailed.
It was a big deal.
Left with no choice.
Jacob moves back to castle andhe moves in with his younger
brother, ludwig, and his wife.
Okay, ferdinand is still askingfor money living in wherever,
(50:50):
like that's.
I just like to keep tabs ofwhat's happening.
Ferdinand is like just like anartsy nomad.
Yeah, like a like the actor.
Yeah, artsy nomad that's how Iview him type of guy.
Yeah, because he does write afew little fairy tales like he
actually writes some himself.
Okay, he uses a different name,though he doesn't want to be
associated with like Grimm,because they have a lot of
published work.
He just, you know, I don'tthink it's a bad thing, he just
(51:11):
wants his own credit, yeah, buthe just never really makes it
big.
You know the brothers, aftergetting fired and after this big
gotting in seven, they had avery difficult time finding new
jobs because the government thatthey live under doesn't like
them.
Yeah, there were some peoplethat supported the Grimm's and
would collect money for them andgive it to them to help them
(51:33):
get by.
They were living on thekindness of others.
At this point Wilhelm stayed inGöttingen with Dorchen, but
they felt like their house wasempty.
They really missed Jacob.
I know, I knew that was coming.
They both did.
I knew that was coming, theyboth did.
Oh, in 10 months after Jacob'sdismissal, wilhelm and his
family moved to Kessel and theyreunited with Jacob.
(51:56):
They surprised Jacob on hisbirthday in 1838.
Yeah, I thought that was cute.
That is cute.
I don't know why.
It's weird for me to think ofpeople in like the 17 and 1800s
doing cutesy things.
Yeah, like just taking the timeto be like isn't this sweet?
Right?
Like all of the historicalmovies and drama period like
(52:19):
period drama sorry, period drama, drama periods they just all
seem like very not affectionate.
Yeah, yeah, you can't do that,but there seems to be quite a
bit of affection that's shown inthe grim family overall.
Right, like they keep closerelationship with their siblings
.
They stayed close with theirmom and dad and grandfather as
long as they were a lot like,yeah, they stayed close, right.
(52:42):
I just, I don't know, I alwaysforget that they do cute things,
that humans are humans, nomatter what year.
Yep, exactly Yep, but stillwithout work, the boys ended up
taking an offer to make acomprehensive dictionary of the
German language.
They didn't want to.
This wasn't something they wereinterested in.
It was offered to them and theydidn't have any other prospects
(53:06):
.
So they were like, all right, Iguess we'll make a german
dictionary.
That sounds horrible.
Yeah, while working on thedictionary, jacob published his
third revised edition of germangrammar in 1840.
Because he's got that grammar.
Yep, he does, yep, and wilhelmwas completing more medieval
(53:27):
works, german literature and healso issued the fourth edition
of children's and householdtales.
He's just going, yep.
Also.
In 1840, they accepted aninvitation from the king of
prussia to go to berlin wherethey would be members.
(53:48):
They would both become membersof the Royal Academy of Sciences
and they would lecture at theUniversity of Berlin.
So they finally got jobs, butthey still have to work on this
German dictionary as well.
They left Kassel in March of1841 and they arrived in Berlin
(54:09):
five days later to start theirnew jobs.
Yes, and Berlin is where thebrothers would spend the rest of
their lives.
This is where we're going toend.
Part two.
That was so much information.
Yeah, my brain can't is likegoing to explode.
Yeah, I know, that was a ton ofinformation.
I was like you had a lot oflike dead stares.
(54:31):
I was like are you hearing me?
Yeah, I can hear you.
I'm just like what now?
What's next?
See, lottie's dead.
Yeah, I know, in the firstepisode in part one of this,
when I was editing, it's likereplays in my head of what's
(54:51):
lottie gonna do.
You just are so concerned forlottie.
She's like not even a part ofthis at all.
She died from meningitis.
Uh, was you said a bacterialspine infection.
Yeah, it was called like myitis, not meningitis.
It was like myelitis I don'tknow how to pronounce it.
(55:11):
Cool, yeah, bacterial.
Is it similar to meningitisthen?
Is it basically the same thing?
Yeah, an infection whichthat'll get you back then.
It sure would, that can get youtoday.
If you don't catch it.
It sure will.
It can kill you.
It can.
Anyway, jeez, louise, okay,they're in Berlin now.
They're in Berlin, and partthree will be coming to you in
(55:34):
another week.
Yes, but they're slowing downnow.
They're not doing as much crazystuff.
Part three will be easier lessinformation, heavy Overloaded.
I mean, this is again, again,why it took eight months to
figure out, because I thoughtthis was going to be one episode
.
Yeah, like, the amount ofinformation you probably had to
(55:55):
like sort and sift through, yes,is outrageous.
I learned a lot about the holyroman empire and I don't need to
, and this is something we careabout.
I know about their currency,how the currency changed over
time, because it was the HolyRoman Empire and then it became
like Kingdom of Germany and thenit became whatever.
That's a lot.
(56:16):
I can't even tell you what's inmy brain right now.
You know how there'sripperologists to study the
ripper Jack the Ripper Sure,because I am one of them.
Well, yeah, I feel like I'm agrimerologist.
Oh, that's where I'm at, butanyway, um, that's it for part
two.
I do want to do a quick littleupdate on things that are
(56:38):
happening with the pod.
I am making merchandise.
I am working on a websitemaking merch, so keep an eye out
for that.
I will most likely post thingson Instagram about it first,
because that's just easiest forme.
So follow us on Instagram atBorrowed Bones Podcast and keep
an eye out for new merch That'llbe dropping soon, hopefully.
(56:59):
And Sam, you don't care to giveyour Instagram this time around
.
No, all right, but yeah, that'sit, and we'll have part three
of the Grimm Brothers in a week.
Woo, bye, bye.
Hello everyone.
I'm Sarah and I'm Sam andyou're listening to Borrowed
Bones.
You guys didn't realize that atall, but we switched.
We switched places.
I'm Sarah and I'm Sam and youstill are listening to Borrowed
Bones, a podcast about fucked up, interesting and toxic families
(00:20):
.
This is our second part ofBrothers grim, and sam is still
here, hello.
Even though no one can tell usapart, yeah, our family's even
having trouble telling us apartwith our voices, yep, so, um,
sorry, but I don't know.
We're gonna push through.
I was born with it.
(00:42):
Yeah, we were born this way.
All right, we left off part one,just a little refresher, with
the French fully taking over.
And there's King JeromeBonaparte is now the king of
Westphalia, the region they allput together, and Jacob is now
the librarian for the king.
Ok, and remember, he hasflexibility within this role so
(01:05):
he can study, work and searchfor those fairy tales, collect,
preserve the culture.
All of that's happening.
There are also other projectsthat jacob's working on in the
background.
They're not only working onthese fairy tales.
They're very academic scholarslike they.
They're very into words andstories and language and grammar
(01:28):
and definitions, everythingboring about words.
Jacob is very interested in Allthe boring stuff.
Yes, he's into it.
Yes, he does view the fairytales as important still, but
Wilhelm was the one that reallywas the driving force for, like,
(01:48):
collecting all the tales.
Jacob kind of gets more creditof being the the main grim
brother, but Wilhelm really didthe most for the fairy tales.
Okay, jacob did a lot withinhis field so he did great things
for that, but Wilhelm is thefairy tale guy.
So by this time when Jacob'sworking at the library they're
(02:09):
like into the fairy tales.
Now they're writing them.
So right now, at this point,they're focused on collecting
the stories.
Okay, and they don't reallywrite them ever.
What like they?
I think they have a couple ofstories they do write from
completely original, but I don'treally know what they are.
They collect stories, ok, sowe'll talk about it.
(02:31):
Yes, ok, they began byresearching and collecting
written works.
That's how they startedcollecting stories.
They, because they work inlibraries and they research and
that's what they had.
But they knew that there wasmore to it.
They knew that there was moreout there that has not been
written down yet.
It's all folklore, it's allverbal.
(02:51):
So they began to search.
They spoke with housekeepers,mothers, soldiers that were
passing through.
Anyone like kind of normal, Iguess, anyone that's just been
around, anyone like kind ofnormal, I guess Anyone that's
just been around.
And the brothers would publishthe first volume of.
(03:11):
I did not.
I forgot to look up how topronounce this.
Oh no, the English version isChildren's and Household Tales.
Okay, so they finally publishedtheir first volume of
Children's and Household TalesOkay, in 1812.
All from stories they justcollected from people, yep, and
(03:33):
all they did was just write themdown.
Yes, they said that's what yousaid.
I'm writing it down.
We're preserving history here.
Yes, this was five days beforeChristmas, so it was open to the
public just in time for theholidays to buy things and give
as gifts, and this was fairlywell received.
They sold over 900 copiesduring their first three years
(03:55):
that it was out.
So, like, not too bad, too bad,but nothing really of like
notoriety.
Okay, just enough for them tobe like we did it.
Yay, just enough for them to belike we did it.
Yay, people compared theimportance of this book and work
to Martin Luther's translationof the Bible into German back in
the 1520s.
What, like?
The scholars and academics intheir world were like this is so
(04:18):
important.
This is just as important asMartin Luther making the Bible
German Wow yeah, luther makingthe Bible German Wow yeah.
So they knew, I think, becausethe French being there, you know
the people taking it over.
This is like Germanic historyyes, very important.
(04:39):
This was not for children,though.
It had no illustrations.
It had like notations in itthat Jacob would make like
scholarly notes.
It had graphic violence andsexual nature to it.
It was more of those storiesthat you tell kids to scare them
.
Okay, and it does tell a story.
Usually it's not like a singsongy rhyme, nothing fun really.
(05:00):
Yeah, another interesting thingI noticed, or I found out, was
that there were no stepmothers.
So there was snow white in thefirst edition.
There was cinderella.
All those stories were in thefirst edition, but they had real
mothers.
So snow white's real mom wastrying to kill her in the
(05:22):
original, yeah, so things likethat.
Interesting Wilhelm, though heargued that it could be for kids
.
He said that if he had kids hewould tell them this and he
looked at Jacob and was like ourmother told us stories just
like this growing up, likewhat's the problem?
But Jacob just viewed it moreas a like poetry, moments in
(05:45):
time, something to capture.
Yeah, for history.
Yes, he even said that it wasfor the oldest and most serious
people.
Oh, ok, yeah.
So basically that was like afuck you, wilhelm, you are wrong
, this is for the oldest andmost serious.
Yeah, that's kind of how Jacobwas.
But Wilhelm was like I don'tcare, I don't care, it's for
(06:08):
kids, I like it.
Yep.
So with the mild success of thefirst book, the brothers were
ready to move on to the secondvolume of Children's and
Household Tales.
So they have multiple editions.
So the first edition.
Now they're making a secondvolume of the first edition.
Got it?
They redo this time and timeagain, and this is why people
(06:28):
think they wrote them, becausethey start to really edit a lot.
Okay, their second volume grewvery quickly.
They had a good amount ofsupporters this time, so they
were able to talk to more people.
People were coming to them nowwith stories and even though the
brothers were making headwaywith their second volume,
(06:50):
napoleon was still around.
He was still doing stuff.
But it's now 1812 andNapoleon's army was failing.
They were in Russia at thispoint and you can't really fight
Russia Like the land itself isharsh.
Yeah, and Napoleon was just toofar away, and so the French were
starting to get pushed back andnow they're being pushed back
(07:11):
into Prussia and King Jerome waslike I know how this is gonna
go, this is not gonna be goodfor us French people here.
So he told Jacob to pack up theHessian books and the treasures
and to send them all to France,all the German art and
literature he's trying to steal,and he's asking Jacob to send
(07:33):
it To do it.
Yeah, jacob was very upset, hewas horrified at the thought of
losing all of this and he didhis best to convince the king
that these things were not worthtaking.
And he was pretty successful.
He still took some stuff, butJacob was like literally saving
Germany's art and literature.
That is wild.
(07:53):
I had no idea.
You don't think that.
Why would you?
Right, I never thought of that.
Strange, as this is happening,wilhelm is still collecting
fairy tales.
Oh, wilhelm, mm-hmm, just inhis own little world over there.
He really is Jacob's serious,like in some serious business,
trying to, you know, save theworld, pretty much, save the
(08:14):
German world.
And Wilhelm's like I want morestories.
Yep, yeah, here I go, prettymuch.
Yeah, that's none of mybusiness, but the stories are.
So here I go.
Pretty much.
Yeah, that's none of mybusiness, but the stories are.
So here I go.
The Grimm family.
They made a lot of sacrificesto support the Hessian army
Jacob and Wilhelm's youngerbrothers, carl and Ludwig.
(08:36):
They fought in the army and in1813, jacob was called back to
official service and he becamethe secretary to the diplomats.
So he's working for thegovernment again.
Because it's Hessian again, orwith still Westphalia, so, yeah,
german, I don't know.
At this point it's so messy.
I'm not a world history girl,I'm an American history girl.
(08:57):
Yeah, okay, so I don't knowthis very well.
Okay, but he's now working forhis people again, okay, in the
government, got it?
Not the, not the French, theFrench are gone, the French are
gone, they're gone.
Now, jacob working for thegovernment again.
He was sent to Paris to helpnegotiate peace on behalf of the
Hessian government, okay, andhe quickly became bored once he
(09:20):
was there.
But he loved it so much thefirst time, yeah, and now he's
bored.
But he loved it so much thefirst time, yeah, and now he's
bored Because he's working likein the government, right, yeah,
he's not doing research withSavini, his friend, yeah, so to
help him get over this boredom.
Jacob would hunt for some morefolktales while he was in France
.
He couldn't do it as much asWilhelm, though, but he tried.
(09:43):
He also would ask them in likea cheeky way like have they
heard of children's andhousehold tales?
Like, have you heard of thiswork though?
Hmm, and I found thisinteresting.
Jacob even wrote letters to SirWalter Scott in Scotland about
fairy tales from his country.
Like, hey, do you have any youwant to give me?
Yeah, I'm collecting.
(10:05):
It's just interesting, thepeople they brush shoulders with
, I guess.
Right, right.
But no matter how busy Jacobkept himself, he was struggling
with being apart from Wilhelm.
Yet again, remember those boys.
He can't handle it.
But yet here he is in Parisagain.
Yep, without Wilhelm.
Jacob would write to hisbrother about how he missed home
(10:27):
and how he would dream ofWilhelm at night.
I just can't with them.
What is happening?
They're weird.
And Wilhelm's the same way,kind of he's a little more, not
as much.
So Wilhelm writes back,reassuring Jacob that, hey, your
desk and chairs are waiting foryou, along with a peaceful life
(10:47):
once you return.
Like you're good?
Yep, it's all good, yeah.
So while Jacob was in Paris, hewas then sent to Vienna, austria
, in the summer of 1814.
The European leaders were allmeeting up to redefine the
borders after napoleon messed itall up, and they were meeting
in vienna for this.
(11:08):
Okay, so what is this a part ofit?
Is this like a actual name ofthis, like summit?
Oh, yes, history, yes it is.
This was called the congress ofvienna.
Okay, and he was a part of that.
Jac Grimm was there, big deal,helping put Europe back together
.
He's a big deal, he really is.
I didn't realize he was thisbig of a deal.
(11:29):
He's in the background.
I mean, he's not like adiplomat, no Itself, but he
definitely was the backbone ofthe diplomats.
He's there At that time, yeah,and his job while he was there
was to translate documents asthe Hessian delegations met with
Tsar Alexander I of Russia andthe King of Prussia, along with
other nobles that come fromAustria and Great Britain.
(11:52):
The best of the best, they'reall there.
The rabbit holes I've gone downon the Tsars of Russia, oh well
, jacob probably knows some ofthem.
I don't know the rabbit holes.
I know some of them.
I don't know the rabbit holes.
Jacob was not impressed, though,with the Congress of Vienna.
He wrote a letter to Wilhelm,he stated that either nothing
(12:14):
happens or when it finally does,it's underhanded, petty, vulgar
and moribund, as if no greatdays lay ahead.
I had to look that word up,moribund.
Yeah, I was like um, it meansat the point of death, wow.
Word of the day yeah, moribund.
I wish I was better at editing.
(12:36):
I would add like a little wordof the day yeah, moribund.
But yeah, he really hated it.
He also said that our urgentbasic needs are so clear that a
little child could lead us onthe right path.
Politics are still the sametoday.
My man, yep, still the same,doesn't change.
(12:57):
Jacob grew very restless.
He was away for two years, wow,and he hated government work
and he was often scolded for notbeing social enough.
He just became like a hermit.
He just wanted to do his job bedone and he just wanted to go
home.
And you can see thisaggravation in him and some of
the letters he writes to Wilhelm.
He starts poking at Wilhelmsaying you're not writing me
(13:23):
enough.
Like, what are you doing?
I'm all here, all alone, andyou're not even writing me.
So then Wilhelm writes back andhe details and outlines every
letter that he's written toJacob and he also says hey, man,
the post isn't really reliable,yeah, and he mentions I've sent
things out on these dates.
You might not have receivedthese letters yet, like.
(13:45):
He's just like what's your deal?
Right, you're being a stagefive right now, straight on
stage five, and we're brothers.
Yeah, we're not lovers, we'rebrothers.
Yes, don't get it twisted.
When you read their lettersit's hard to like.
I would love to give theletters to someone and not have
the names down, yeah, and justbe like what do you think?
(14:07):
This is almost like goingthrough like ann lister's
journal.
Oh man, um, so back at home,will helm was appointed
secretary to the librarian.
Reminds me of like assistant tothe regional manager.
I don't know what that meansAssistant.
(14:28):
So Wilhelm is secretary to thelibrarian.
The job wasn't very great, itdidn't pay well, but it was
something.
While working, wilhelm was stillhunting down fairy tales for
that second volume.
And Wilhelm did finish thesecond volume of children's and
household tales and he sent acopy to Jacob in 1815, jacob
(14:52):
still being a little bitch boy,and he criticizes the actual
paper, the physical paper, andhe's like it's too thin, you
shouldn't have used it and theprice is too high for such
shitty quality.
Oh, my God, wilhelm did notrespond.
There's no response found and IFYI Next letter.
Fyi, jacob, I did not respondto this letter.
(15:13):
In case you were wondering yeah, yeah, this one didn't get lost
.
This one didn't get lostBecause it was never sent.
I just really imagine himtaking the letter, crumbling it
up, throwing it away and justlike rolling his eyes trash,
yeah, just, this is trash.
This is trash.
Yep, wilhelm did write jacobwith the news, though, that
their aunt had passed away,their aunt henrietta zimmer,
(15:36):
that they lived with in thecastle.
Jacob finally returned home inthe fall of 1815, and he was
putting the finishing touches ona project of his called german
legends, and this was storiesthat were not fit for fairy
tales at all.
Okay, it's just something elsehe's been working on.
I like to mention a few oftheir other projects, so we know
(15:56):
that they're working on amillion things at once.
Yeah, I'm not even mentioningeverything they're working on
either, it's so much much.
He published German Legends,and then he published a second
volume of it as well, in 1818.
But both Jacob and Wilhelm arecredited for pretty much all of
their works, even though onewill work on it more than the
other.
They just shared everything.
(16:17):
Yeah, I feel like they just gothrough life like they're one
person.
Right After German Legends waspublished, jacob received a new
job because the position abovehim, the person, passed away
Okay, and so he was able to moveright up there.
So Wilhelm then took Jacob's oldposition.
They each moved up a spot.
Then the brothers would worktogether for several years.
(16:38):
During this time, jacob wasworking on quite a big project.
It consumed him quite a bit.
So this is the main reason whyWilhelm started collecting a lot
of the stories on his own.
Okay, we're going to getacademic and technical, because
it's Jacob and it's difficultfor me to talk about, so I'm
going to do my best, okay.
(16:59):
Okay, the project that Jacobwas working on changed how we
view language forever.
Yes, I am speechless.
I am stunned.
I don't know what to say aboutthat, so let us continue.
Yes, there is a grammar rulethat's called Grimm's Law.
(17:20):
This is after Jacob, okay, andhis project that he was working
on was called German Grammar.
So that's the book that he waswriting German Grammar.
Yep, he's very straightforward.
Okay, german legends, germangrammar.
And because Jacob studiedlanguage, he was very curious
and fascinated by the history oflanguage and the evolution of
(17:41):
language.
Okay, I'm going to try andexplain Grimm's Law.
I listened to a podcast thatwas just about Grimm's Law, an
episode.
It was an hour long, just aboutthis.
So if you are confused, aftermy explanation, I did my best I
will put it in the show notes,the link to this episode of the
podcast that I listened to.
(18:02):
All right, all right, so beforeJacob came along, people were
always interested in studyinglanguage.
They knew something washappening with it, like OK, it
evolves and changes, but theykind of just accepted it.
And Jacob realized whilestudying languages that certain
ones have similar patterns toothers.
He realized that Sanskrit isrelated to German as much as it
(18:27):
is related to Latin and Greek.
They all come from the sameancient Indo-European language.
Okay, he noticed thatphonetically, certain letters
sounded the same or they wereused for the same words or
sounds.
He just started noticingcertain patterns.
For example, patera in Greek isfather and then it is pater or
(18:55):
pater I'm not really exactlysure in Latin, but then it's
vater in German and in Englishit's father.
So you have an F for father, aV for vater, a P for pater or
pater, and they all mean dad orfather.
Okay, so Jacob's like this can'tbe a coincidence, right?
This is too similar, too closetogether, and so that's
(19:18):
basically it.
He sees the pattern they seemto all stem from the same
Indo-European language and hesays that we can use this to
further understand where ourlanguage will evolve to, and
understand how we movedthroughout the world, and kind
of see, it's kind of likefinding fossils, right, little
traces of history, right, that'sthe best way I can explain it.
(19:39):
Well, that was a good job.
Okay, I understand itcompletely.
And now I feel like I'm on acidand know the secrets of the
universe.
Yes, he unlocked it all.
Yes, so, yes, so he discoveredit.
At first it was called the LawDiscovered by Jacob Grimm, and
then it eventually turned intoGrimm's Law, and then the book
(19:59):
German Grammar was a bestsellerin 1819.
Yeah, fair tales be damned,this grammar though, this
grammar, though it slaps, let'sget it Like.
I don't understand the Germansback then.
No, no, that would not be myfirst choice.
No, I'd do German legends first, yeah, yeah, and then probably
the children's and householdtales.
(20:20):
Yeah, wilhelm was working onsome medieval shit too in the
background as well, so you'dprobably probably be interested
in that.
Yeah, I feel like Wilhelm is ismore my brother, yeah, than
Jacob is my brother, yeah.
So if I'm gonna pick a brother,it's gonna be Wilhelm, because
he seems not as serious.
Yeah, for sure, like I can seethat Wilhelm is like I want to
(20:43):
go listen to some stories.
Yeah, I want to tell them.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I like listening.
And here we are today.
All right, and now we're in1821.
And Wilhelm, because the Germangrammar was so well received in
1819, he wrote another editionthat was published in 1821.
Okay, in 1819, he wrote anotheredition that was published in
(21:06):
1821.
As Jacob was working on thesecond edition of German Grammar
, wilhelm was working on thesecond edition of Children's and
Household Tales the secondedition, not a new volume.
So he's starting a whole newfairy tales, new stories, new
collection.
Wilhelm wanted this one to bemore for children this time
around, but he wanted to keepthe sex in and the out-of-wed
(21:29):
pregnancies in as well.
Specifically, well, like hewanted to keep everything in
there, but maybe soften some ofthe words, or maybe he basically
was making it less academic,not necessarily better for kids,
right, he said you can foolyourself into thinking that what
can be removed from a book canalso be removed from real life.
(21:51):
He's like.
These kids have to learn aboutit someday.
I mean, that's true.
I liked that quote.
He's anti-censorship he is, andI'm all for it.
Yeah, europe has way lesscensorship than we do with, like
nudity, sex, that kind of stuff.
I don't know if they censor inother ways, I'm sure, but I
think we would be surprised tosee what's on daytime tv there
(22:12):
there's probably boobies andpeepees, exactly.
Yeah, I'm sorry my nanny sidecame out boobies and peepees.
That was stupid.
I feel dumb.
I feel like an idiot.
The millennial urges talk likethis.
I hate when we laugh at thesame time.
All right, he did, however, takeout um inappropriate phrasing,
(22:36):
like he ended up editingrapunzel.
He changed it to where theprince does not impregnate
rapunzel, because that's theoriginal story, okay.
He changes it to where, instead, prince does not impregnate
rapunzel, because that's theoriginal story.
Okay.
He changes it to where, instead, he writes they loved each
other dearly, yes, okay.
So now we're starting to seehow they're putting their
fingers in.
Oh, that was bad, that wassomething.
(22:57):
Okay, that was something.
So now we're gonna see howthey're putting their stamp on
things.
Okay, that was better, let's gopostal.
Yeah, and that's why you'll seethings like the Grimm's version
of Cinderella, the Grimm'sversion of Snow White, the
Grimm's version of this, of that, because they'll edit things.
(23:17):
Okay, as Jacob and Wilhelm weredoing their things, working on
their projects, the count thatthe brothers worked for I don't
know if I mentioned that theywork for a count.
I don't think so.
Okay, I got nothing.
I don't think so.
I think we just talked abouthow they have a boss.
Okay, well, they do work for acount.
It doesn't really matter, butI'll say count multiple times.
(23:38):
Okay, yeah, the count, theywork for a count.
And this count ends up passingaway and the count's son took
his place.
The brothers enjoyed working forthe dad.
They got along well.
They were given freedom to dotheir own work, as long as they
got their shit done.
Yeah.
The son, however, was just alittle prick.
He just was a jerk, like for noreason.
(24:01):
He was just like a nepo baby.
Yeah, that's what it soundslike.
Yeah, the Grimm's didn't getalong with him very well at all.
This new count the son.
He moved his mistress into themain house where the brothers
lived, so they were kicked outaround christmas time in 1821.
They still worked for him,though they just didn't get to
live there.
Okay, yeah, so they had to moveabove a blacksmith shop and
(24:24):
Jacob called it a dark hole.
Oh, but they still worked forthis guy.
Yeah, that would suck, thatwould.
Yeah, is there no more roomanywhere else in this place?
I don't know.
That's where they had to move,that's where they went.
Yep, they were not happy aboutthis.
So they're working here for afew years.
Now we're in 1823.
(24:57):
And there's a British man namedEdgar Taylor who translated some
of the Grimm fairy tale stories.
Instead of getting mad becausethey didn't get royalties or
anything, this is just straightup stolen work.
It's just translated and addedsome fun things to it.
The Grimms saw this and theygave him credit for giving them
more success and an even betterreputation.
(25:17):
So they were kind of like youknow what Thanks?
Yeah, that worked out, and theydidn't, like I said, they
didn't get any money from it.
Yeah, that worked out, and theydidn't like I said, they didn't
(25:40):
get any money from it.
But the brothers liked how theEnglish version was a little bit
softer word wise than in theGerman version, and this also
gave the brothers the idea to.
I've shown you they were drawnby Ludwig.
He drew his mom, his dad, his Idon't know if he drew his dad,
his dad died really young, sonot his dad, but he drew his mom
, brother, sister, all of them.
So seeing this, jacob thoughtmaybe we can soften our version.
We don't have to use this highGerman, this intellectual stuff.
(26:01):
We can make it easier for kids.
We can get rid of thosescholarly side notes.
Yes, it can actually be forchildren.
Yes, so they finally releasedan abridged version of the
children's and household tales.
So they made it smaller,because the first one had, like
I think, 85 or 86 fairy tales init.
Wow, yeah, the abridged one had50.
Okay, yeah, really condensed it.
(26:21):
Yes, 50.
Okay, yeah, really condensed it.
Yes, and this was published inDecember of 1825.
Okay, also in 1825,.
Wilhelm marries no, yes, no, hemarries Dorchen Wild.
(26:41):
They were friends sincechildhood.
Okay, their families were closebecause her parents died when
she was young, so she hung outwith the Grimms quite a bit.
And Wilhelm and Jacob are intheir 30s at this point.
Late bloomers yeah, I don'tknow if this story is true or
not, but it's speculated thatWilhelm only married after he
and Jacob had a conversation andagreed that one of them needs
to get married in order to havea household, to maintain the
(27:05):
household and get things done,because they were always working
Right.
So Wilhelm loved Dorchen, but Idon't think marriage was on his
mind until they had, like aconference about it.
They actually had to talk aboutit, yeah, as one person.
Yes, one of us needs to getmarried.
Yeah, so somebody can dosomething around the house.
Yep, and Jacob would remain alifelong bachelor and he would
(27:29):
live with Dorchen and Wilhelm.
You know, it's all making sense, fairy tales.
Yep, the Grimm brothers.
Yep, wilhelm and Dorchen namedtheir firstborn son after Jacob.
He was born in December of 1826.
He did pass away, though,unfortunately at eight months
(27:50):
old.
Aww, yeah, in 1828, two yearslater, dorchen does give birth
to another baby boy and theyname him Herman, and he survives
Okay, and Jacob and Herman getalong very well.
Jacob is like the best dotinguncle, like he just loves Herman
, and the way this relationshipis talked about reminds me so
(28:12):
much of Jacob when he was alittle boy and his aunt
Schlemmer.
Oh yeah, the way that they justloved each other.
Yeah, so I feel like Jacobwants he?
I feel like he almost justwants to be this role.
That's like he's the the wayhis aunt was.
His aunt was the oldest in herline of siblings and she never
had kids and she moved in withher brother and his wife and
(28:33):
helped take care of their kidsand Jacob and her were besties.
Yeah, I just think Jacob islike this is my role, this is
who I am.
This is passed down to me.
Yep, it, this is who I am.
This was passed down to me.
Yep, it's almost like it waswritten for him.
It was written Herman even gaveJacob a nickname.
Herman would call him a Papa, aPapa Uh-huh, which is baby
(28:53):
babble form of Papa.
They do say Papa in Germany.
Okay, so this baby decides togive him the name a Papa and it
stayed with Jacob their wholelife.
Yeah, and I thought that wascute because it's like more than
an uncle, but like it's likesecond dad, right, I thought
that was just really cute.
That is really cute.
I was a nanny for a long time.
So little nicknames that babiesgive are just.
(29:14):
I just love them.
I'll forever be Rara to some ofthose kids because they
couldn't say Sarah and they grewit, and they just grew up and
they always just call me Rara.
I love it so much anyway, fuckthem kids.
(29:35):
No, I'm just kidding, I'mtotally.
I just had to say it.
I came out of nowhere.
Oh sorry, that's really thatcame into my head, I'm sorry.
Oh okay, you can totally editthat out, because I I'm not.
That was funny.
Come on, that's what came to myhead, we'll see what makes it.
Oh, okay.
By this point, wilhelm and Jacobwere scholarly successes.
(29:55):
They were well-known withintheir field, within the
academics.
Their reputations were great.
Yes, jacob even receivedhonorary doctorates from
different universities.
Yeah, I don't want to say thenames because they're German
universities, but I can stillhear you.
That's what dad would say.
(30:17):
Oh yeah, he knows some German.
He does know some German.
During this time, though, thebrothers were still working for
that count boy who hates his dad.
He wasn't nice, he was such alittle prick, like that's all I
can think of when I read abouthim.
I don't, I don't like givinghim a title, like he's a little
count boy, little count boy,okay.
(30:38):
And there was a point that cameup where jacob should have been
promoted and then Wilhelm wouldhave been promoted because
someone passed away.
That was higher up, yep.
However, this count gave theposition to someone else.
He was playing favorites.
Jacob was pissed and he feltsnubbed after working for the
government for over 20 years.
(30:59):
He was like you're going topass me up, me, right, jacob
Grimm?
Yeah, what, I'm already livingabove a blacksmith.
Yeah, what, I'm already livingabove a blacksmith.
Yeah, sure, because of you, youalready kicked us out of our
home.
So the brothers were just doneand they found work elsewhere,
at the University of Göttingenin Hanover.
I did look that one up.
Good job.
Yes, I don't know, I'm notsaying it correctly.
(31:21):
Still, I've listened to it amillion times.
The German dialect is difficult, right.
They found work at theUniversity of Göttingen in
Hanover, and Jacob was 44 andWilhelm's 43.
Okay, in the winter of 1829,jacob and Wilhelm said goodbye
to Kassel, where they live.
(31:42):
It's been their home for somany years now.
Their family was still inCastle, aside from one of their
brothers, ferdinand, who wasworking in Berlin.
Their sister, lottie, livedthere with her husband.
Their brother, carl, worked asa tutor, teaching English and
French, and Ludwig was gettingmarried soon.
He's the artist and eventuallyhe would become an art professor
(32:03):
.
Okay, their mother and closestrelatives are also buried in
castles.
They're leaving.
They're leaving everyone Bye,yep.
But they felt this was just thebest future for their family.
Right?
Wilhelm was going to be thelibrarian at the university and
Jacob would be a professor ofphilology, which is a study of
(32:24):
language, as well as a librarian.
That's very fitting.
Oh, yeah, he's like aphilologist first and foremost.
Isn't that fun to say, yeah,philologist, philologist.
It's almost like kind of likeChristmas, like fa-la-la-la-la.
Oh, yes, yes, I was like it'snothing like Christmas Actually,
it is Fa-la-la A gist.
(32:46):
Actually.
Cannabis, fa la la, la, la, la,la la la gist, exactly.
I'm never going to unsee that.
Now I'm sorry, because that'sall I see.
Get ready for my BarbraStreisand jingle bells.
Every year I sing it to thefamily.
It's my favorite thing in theentire world.
(33:06):
I know every word.
I love Barbara.
I mean, who doesn't loveBarbara?
But your rendition is fantastic, awfully entertaining.
It is awfully entertaining.
That is so true, so true.
All right, back to the brothers.
(33:30):
When they left, they wentwithout Dorchen and Wilhelm's
son Herman, because Dorchen wassix months pregnant at the time
and she wasn't feeling wellright before their journey, so
she had to stay behind and getbetter.
That was the plan anyway.
Well, when Dorchen got better,herman fell ill and then which
delayed the departure even moreWilhelm ended up going back to
castle to help Dorchen withHermann, and they made the
(33:50):
journey back to Göttingen in aheated carriage.
Wow, yeah.
So I looked up how carriageswere heated.
Yeah, I was like what?
Because Wilhelm was like we'llget the sun, we'll do this.
And she didn't want to gobecause it was winter and she's
like Hermann just got over thisillness, we don't want him out
in the cold again.
So then Wilhelm's like heatedcarriage, no problem, they just
(34:11):
use those portable foot warmersor those Like in Little Women
when she was sick, and they putin the bed.
Yeah, like that, they just havethose in there.
They put hot coals in, yeah forsure.
Yep, super easy.
I was like do they have likegas lamps in there?
Because that's really unsafe.
Do they build a campfire?
Yeah, because this doesn't seemsafe.
(34:32):
No, no, it's not that extreme,it's just hot coals, probably.
Yep, that's it Interesting, andlike an iron kind of thing, and
they cover it and you put yourfeet by it and done and done.
Now that everyone's in Göttingen, it was difficult for the Grimm
brothers to really acclimate totheir new home and their new
work-life balance.
Jacob and Wilhelm did not likethe city.
(34:52):
They didn't find it appealing.
They felt the city lacked charm.
There's a river that passesthrough the city, but it was
narrow, muddy, more like a creek.
Okay, they just didn't reallylike it.
There wasn't any magic to it.
No, no romance.
Yeah, they didn't realize thatthey've been living in a
(35:20):
fairytale life literally now.
Right.
Basically, they're like anormal city, what they wanted.
And there wasn't much oversightfrom the university.
They weren't breathing downtheir necks.
There also wasn't really muchof an emphasis on religion.
It was more of a secularuniversity which allowed more
freedom.
And during the first few yearsof the Grimm's working there,
(35:42):
the university's reputationcontinued to grow in a very
positive way.
There was a lot of advancementsand scientific achievements
that were done there.
It was just like doing great.
They didn't like the town orcity, but they were doing good
work.
But even with all this happening, jacob and Wilhelm still didn't
feel like things were quiteright.
One thing was that even thoughJacob had the freedom to do his
(36:06):
job really well, he didn't havea lot of extra time to do his
side projects because he was alibrarian and a professor and he
just couldn't be bothered bythat kind of stuff.
He's like I have real work todo, shaping young minds.
Don't care, he doesn't careabout being a professor, he just
does it because he's supposedto.
Yeah, now we're jumping to 1830.
(36:29):
They're still living at theuniversity, working there, and
Wilhelm's family was growing.
Dorchen had a second baby boyand his name is Rudolf, in March
of 1830.
Oh, mm-hmm, pisces, oh, yeah,nice.
A few months later they gotword that Lottie's baby girl
passed away.
(36:49):
Oh, lottie, I don't know howshe passed away, but she did.
And while the Grimms were inGöttingen, there was another
revolution in Paris in 1830.
And Germany was watching,mm-hmm, and Germany was watching
.
At this time, in Paris, theFrench king was forced out by
(37:11):
the people due to his favoritismtoward the nobles Sure and he
put on a pretty heavyrestriction of free speech.
Ooh, and this was not good,because what they did in France
was they censored an essay thatwas written by a docent that was
affiliated with the Universityof Göttingen and that basically
(37:34):
is someone who is an adjunctprofessor, like they're not
quite a professor, but they'realmost a professor, so someone
that worked at the universitywrote an essay that was not
allowed to be published inFrance.
Okay, and that was the laststraw in the camel's back over
there.
Yeah, but because Germany'sinvolved.
(37:55):
Rioters took over the city inGöttingen in January of 1831.
They were like fuck this, fullcircle.
Yes, wow.
And they demanded that theirkingdom because, remember,
germany still has kingdoms thatthey wanted a liberal
constitution written for them.
They're like we want aconstitution, we want to make
sure that we're safe and takencare of and that you're not
(38:16):
going to do this same shit here.
Yeah, they paraded through thestreets wearing white armbands
and brandishing weapons.
The rioters threatened to setfire to the library and the
librarians had to stand watchthat night and day, meaning
Jacob and Wilhelm.
Several thousand troops weresent to stop this uprising in
(38:38):
the city, which lasted just overa week.
It was like quite a while.
I feel like to have a citydoing stuff.
Jacob didn't really like therioting.
He said it was despicable andhe blamed the rioters for the
reason.
Wilhelm got sick because hestayed up all night at the
library and then Wilhelm fellill and he got really sick and
(39:00):
Jacob thought he was going todie.
He did not Okay.
He was sick for a few weeks,though, and he ended up getting
better just in time for his 45thbirthday.
Good, so good to go, perfect.
Now, since the revolution inParis, germany was very uneasy,
still all over, and Jacob andWilhelm were keeping an eye on
the changing political climate.
(39:21):
They were like all right, we'relike right in the middle of it
yet again.
Here we are, here, we areAlways here.
They just find themselves there, yep.
So to prevent any sort ofrevolution from happening, the
kingdoms did agree to write aconstitution.
So we have the kingdoms ofSaxony, hessen and Hanover that
are like yep, people will dowhat you need.
(39:43):
We don't want, we don't wantthat, right?
Yep.
So everyone's like happy atthis point, but it's kind of
like this tense yeah, standoff,all right.
So that's happening in thebackground, ok.
Now also in 1831, wilhelmbecomes a professor for the
university.
He's still a librarian, buthe's allowed to be a professor
now too.
Wilhelm really liked it.
(40:04):
He was great at being aprofessor.
His classes were well attendedand he taught old German, old
German, yep, the language.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm guessing Wilhelm wasalso named a corresponding
member of the Prussian RoyalAcademy of Sciences in Berlin.
(40:26):
Yeah, I just like to give himcredit Very prestigious, because
not a lot of people give himcredit.
Yeah, yeah, he's doing stufftoo, he is, he's working.
Yeah, I like Wilhelm, I likehim.
In August of 1832, wilhelm andDortchen had their last child, a
little girl, and she was namedAuguste.
Augusta, auguste girl, and shewas named august, augusta,
(40:50):
august, a like august with an eat the end.
Yeah, um, probably augusta.
Yeah, kind of like thehenrietta, henrietta, I think.
Yeah, so wilhelm has two sonsherman, who's four, rudolph,
who's two, and then this newbaby girl, augusta.
I just I read this, and theseare some of herman's memories
that I wanted to talk about thathe has of his dad and his uncle
.
Okay, yeah, so Herman remembersin his early years that his
(41:11):
uncle, jacob, a papa, wouldalways be like hunched over his
desk, scribbling rapidly, can'tget everything out fast enough,
right?
And then how his dad, wilhelm,wrote slower, more thoughtfully,
and Jacob just couldn't get itdone fast enough.
Yeah, yeah, he said that hisfather and uncle enjoyed nature,
that they would use rocks andshells as paperweights and they
(41:35):
would also use pressed flowersand leaves as bookmarks.
I cannot with these two, I knowI cannot.
Weird and cute.
I don't know't think today ofany man today that would just
like use pressed flowers.
That is a that's terrible thatwe've evolved.
I know, cole, you need to startusing pressed flowers as
(41:58):
bookmarks.
Yeah, exactly, cole, I don'tthink he's gonna listen to these
.
He doesn't listen to these ever.
Oh, okay, well, if you startusing pressed flowers.
I know you've listened.
Anyway, dorjan also didn'treally like the new city.
I kind of forgot about her, butyeah, she didn't like it either
.
You know, everyone forgets her,everyone forgets the girls.
(42:20):
I know I'm sorry, dorjan, sorry, dorjan, you matter, you do,
but she would often write toLottie back in Castle Whenever
she was having a trip back homecoming up.
She'd be like All right, lottie, prepare some new clothing for
me, some new shawls, some newaccessories, because there was
nothing in Göttingen for them,like they just didn't like it.
Oh, in May of 1833, the Grimmswent home to Castle for a visit,
(42:44):
and they saw Lottie.
I think they stayed with her,and she was pregnant this time.
When they were there, though,lottie got really sick with
influenza, which put her intopremature labor, and she gave
birth one month early to a babygirl.
I don't know for sure if shesurvived or not.
I think she did, okay, but Ican't, I don't know that, like
(43:07):
the baby or Lottie, the baby,okay, I'm pretty sure the baby
survived, okay, don't know forsure, don't know exactly Got it.
Then, soon after this, wilhelmgot sick.
So then Jacob went back to workand Dorchen stayed to help with
Lottie and Wilhelm and like,okay, well, we're here now, yeah
, and then Dorchen got sick andthen Wilhelm was better, but he
(43:30):
stayed to care for Dorchen andLottie because Lottie's still
sick, she can't seem to shake it.
Dorchen recovered but Lottiedid not.
Oh, she got a spinal bacterialinfection, oh no, and she passed
away while Wilhelm was by herside.
Okay, yeah, jacob arrived toolate to say goodbye, but he did
visit her a few times while shewas six.
(43:53):
Lottie passed away in June of1833 at the age of 40.
She left behind her husband of11 years and her four children.
I don't know if that baby girlis a part of the four children
or not, but that's what I knowabout Lottie.
Okay, Now their brother,ferdinand, is in Berlin and he
was let go from his job thathe's had since 1815.
(44:16):
With no other prospects, wilhelmand Jacob convince Ferdinand to
stay with them and Ferdinandlives with them for a few years.
But one day in the summer of1836, ferdinand just them for a
few years.
But one day in the summer of1836, ferdinand just leaves out
of the blue.
He doesn't have a goodrelationship with the brothers,
he's kind of the outcast of thefamily.
Okay, and after disappearing hesends a cryptic and
(44:38):
unapologetic letter to Dorchenfrom another town, and he didn't
share his plans or what he wasdoing.
I couldn't find what the letterwas or what he said, but I
guess it was just like I leftand that's it.
I don't really know.
Wilhelm speculated that maybe hewas going to pursue the theater
because he liked the arts andhe liked to do that.
(44:59):
But Jacob said he's too lazy toeven remember his lines.
Oh, no, yeah, jacob andFerddinand did not get along.
No, no, no, yeah, I feel likejacob was the aggressor.
Jacob probably was theaggressor.
I do feel that way.
He seems that way.
Yeah, however, to jacob's dismay, it wasn't long until ferdinand
returned.
But jacob said no, you can'tlive with us anymore.
(45:21):
You can't snub jacob.
Yeah, you can't do those things.
He's dramatic and I think thatI'm dramatic and I think we
would either love each other orwe would really hate each other,
depending on what buttons arepushed.
Yeah, ferdinand, of course,left because he wasn't allowed
to live with Jacob, and heeventually settled in a small
town where he lived for the restof his life.
(45:43):
Okay, the brothers would sendhim a monthly allowance, though,
to help him out.
So they still, like, talked tohim.
Yeah, they just said you can'tlive with us, you can't sit with
us.
Sorry, you can't sit with us,you can't sit with us, ferdinand
.
Nope, early in 1834, wilhelm'sphysical state began to diminish
once again.
(46:03):
For six months he could barelytake care of any of his
responsibilities, and after herecovered, wilhelm was just
depressed and avoided socialgatherings for most of 1835,
1836.
Okay, he does get better.
He ends up pulling out of it,but every sickness that's coming
is just getting harder for himto shake, harder for him to
(46:25):
shake.
I'd just like to point that out.
Yeah, he struggles through life.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, we're going to getpolitical now again.
Alrighty, all right.
In 1837, the king of GreatBritain, uk, ireland, was also
the king of Hanover, so wherethe brothers live.
Okay, he died, and because hedidn't have a legitimate heir to
(46:52):
the throne, his niece, victoria, was crowned queen, all right,
so we have Queen Victoria, andthis was fine to be queen in UK
and Britain and all of that,yeah.
But the kingdom of Hanover,which is where Gotöttingen city
is, they had a rule that saidwomen not allowed like it's,
(47:12):
only can be a man.
So in Hanover specifically, itwas given to the dead king's
brother, ernest Augustus, and inGermany he's known as Ernst
August.
Okay, so he takes power in Juneof 1837.
And now he's the new king ofHanover and he has this
(47:32):
constitution that was written in1833 to protect everyone, right
, and he goes nope, I don't likeit.
And he is all about nobles andrestrictions and shutting things
down.
And he doesn't like theprofessors and the academics.
So he says no to thisconstitution, new rules.
(47:53):
And he says that everyone needsto swear allegiance to him,
including all the professors.
You all need to bow down, let'sgo.
Yep, they didn't like this.
Oh my God.
They said no, no, no, no, no,no.
And on the night of November17th, one of the Grimm's friends
, one of these scholars, wrote astatement of protest.
(48:13):
Okay, and it was stating thatthey were going to stay true to
the original oath to theconstitution.
We have an allegiance to theconstitution, not to you.
When you have so many differentpowers that take over you, you
have to.
You can't care anymore aboutthat.
Right Like.
You're just someone fromanother country that's coming in
.
You're not one of us.
Right Like.
You can't do this, right, yeah,we have an allegiance to
(48:37):
ourselves, exactly so.
The following day, six otherprofessors signed this statement
, along with the one who wroteit, so seven signatures are on
this statement saying, yeah, weagree, we're not doing this,
including Jacob and Wilhelm, andthey became known as the
Göttingen Seven.
Okay, this is a big thing.
(48:58):
Wow, it's like the Avengers.
Yeah, avengers assemble.
This is crazy.
Yeah, and the students of theuniversity immediately supported
it.
They were like hell.
Yeah, yeah, you know.
There's a rule of thumb as well,and I learned this from the
grims.
They say something to theeffect of you should always be
on the side of the students,because who has more time than
(49:21):
college students to be soinvested in everything?
Right like right.
I think that's just a good ruleof thumb.
Okay, yeah, we can take thatrule.
Yeah, I'll agree with it.
If students are protesting, thepowers that be.
There's probably a good reasonfor that.
Yep.
So the students supported thisand they made copies of this
(49:41):
statement of protest onsignatures and they distributed
them throughout the area.
They flooded the city with them.
They even sent them outside oftheir kingdom of Hanover and
they asked for newspapers topublish the statements.
And they were like, we need toget this out.
On December 4th, there was aJudiciary Committee meeting and
all seven professors admittedthat.
Yep, we did sign that, wefreely signed it.
(50:03):
What you gonna do?
All seven were fired.
Yes, and that's what happened.
Okay, I'm sure.
I'm sure there's more you know.
And jacob and a few others wereactually told to leave the
kingdom of hanover all together.
Wow, within three days, orlegal action would take place.
Yeah, okay, wilhelm wasn'tbanished from the area, he was
(50:26):
just fired, but Jacob wasbanished.
Yep.
Upon learning this, thestudents went into the streets
and they protested and some wereeven jailed.
It was a big deal.
Left with no choice.
Jacob moves back to castle andhe moves in with his younger
brother, ludwig, and his wife.
Okay, ferdinand is still askingfor money living in wherever,
(50:50):
like that's.
I just like to keep tabs ofwhat's happening.
Ferdinand is like just like anartsy nomad.
Yeah, like a like the actor.
Yeah, artsy nomad that's how Iview him type of guy.
Yeah, because he does write afew little fairy tales like he
actually writes some himself.
Okay, he uses a different name,though he doesn't want to be
associated with like Grimm,because they have a lot of
published work.
He just, you know, I don'tthink it's a bad thing, he just
(51:11):
wants his own credit, yeah, buthe just never really makes it
big.
You know the brothers, aftergetting fired and after this big
gotting in seven, they had avery difficult time finding new
jobs because the government thatthey live under doesn't like
them.
Yeah, there were some peoplethat supported the Grimm's and
would collect money for them andgive it to them to help them
(51:33):
get by.
They were living on thekindness of others.
At this point Wilhelm stayed inGöttingen with Dorchen, but
they felt like their house wasempty.
They really missed Jacob.
I know, I knew that was coming.
They both did.
I knew that was coming, theyboth did.
Oh, in 10 months after Jacob'sdismissal, wilhelm and his
family moved to Kessel and theyreunited with Jacob.
(51:56):
They surprised Jacob on hisbirthday in 1838.
Yeah, I thought that was cute.
That is cute.
I don't know why.
It's weird for me to think ofpeople in like the 17 and 1800s
doing cutesy things.
Yeah, like just taking the timeto be like isn't this sweet?
Right?
Like all of the historicalmovies and drama period like
(52:19):
period drama sorry, period drama, drama periods they just all
seem like very not affectionate.
Yeah, yeah, you can't do that,but there seems to be quite a
bit of affection that's shown inthe grim family overall.
Right, like they keep closerelationship with their siblings
.
They stayed close with theirmom and dad and grandfather as
long as they were a lot like,yeah, they stayed close, right.
(52:42):
I just, I don't know, I alwaysforget that they do cute things,
that humans are humans, nomatter what year.
Yep, exactly Yep, but stillwithout work, the boys ended up
taking an offer to make acomprehensive dictionary of the
German language.
They didn't want to.
This wasn't something they wereinterested in.
It was offered to them and theydidn't have any other prospects
(53:06):
.
So they were like, all right, Iguess we'll make a german
dictionary.
That sounds horrible.
Yeah, while working on thedictionary, jacob published his
third revised edition of germangrammar in 1840.
Because he's got that grammar.
Yep, he does, yep, and wilhelmwas completing more medieval
(53:27):
works, german literature and healso issued the fourth edition
of children's and householdtales.
He's just going, yep.
Also.
In 1840, they accepted aninvitation from the king of
prussia to go to berlin wherethey would be members.
(53:48):
They would both become membersof the Royal Academy of Sciences
and they would lecture at theUniversity of Berlin.
So they finally got jobs, butthey still have to work on this
German dictionary as well.
They left Kassel in March of1841 and they arrived in Berlin
(54:09):
five days later to start theirnew jobs.
Yes, and Berlin is where thebrothers would spend the rest of
their lives.
This is where we're going toend.
Part two.
That was so much information.
Yeah, my brain can't is likegoing to explode.
Yeah, I know, that was a ton ofinformation.
I was like you had a lot oflike dead stares.
(54:31):
I was like are you hearing me?
Yeah, I can hear you.
I'm just like what now?
What's next?
See, lottie's dead.
Yeah, I know, in the firstepisode in part one of this,
when I was editing, it's likereplays in my head of what's
(54:51):
lottie gonna do.
You just are so concerned forlottie.
She's like not even a part ofthis at all.
She died from meningitis.
Uh, was you said a bacterialspine infection.
Yeah, it was called like myitis, not meningitis.
It was like myelitis I don'tknow how to pronounce it.
(55:11):
Cool, yeah, bacterial.
Is it similar to meningitisthen?
Is it basically the same thing?
Yeah, an infection whichthat'll get you back then.
It sure would, that can get youtoday.
If you don't catch it.
It sure will.
It can kill you.
It can.
Anyway, jeez, louise, okay,they're in Berlin now.
They're in Berlin, and partthree will be coming to you in
(55:34):
another week.
Yes, but they're slowing downnow.
They're not doing as much crazystuff.
Part three will be easier lessinformation, heavy Overloaded.
I mean, this is again, again,why it took eight months to
figure out, because I thoughtthis was going to be one episode
.
Yeah, like, the amount ofinformation you probably had to
(55:55):
like sort and sift through, yes,is outrageous.
I learned a lot about the holyroman empire and I don't need to
, and this is something we careabout.
I know about their currency,how the currency changed over
time, because it was the HolyRoman Empire and then it became
like Kingdom of Germany and thenit became whatever.
That's a lot.
(56:16):
I can't even tell you what's inmy brain right now.
You know how there'sripperologists to study the
ripper Jack the Ripper Sure,because I am one of them.
Well, yeah, I feel like I'm agrimerologist.
Oh, that's where I'm at, butanyway, um, that's it for part
two.
I do want to do a quick littleupdate on things that are
(56:38):
happening with the pod.
I am making merchandise.
I am working on a websitemaking merch, so keep an eye out
for that.
I will most likely post thingson Instagram about it first,
because that's just easiest forme.
So follow us on Instagram atBorrowed Bones Podcast and keep
an eye out for new merch That'llbe dropping soon, hopefully.
(56:59):
And Sam, you don't care to giveyour Instagram this time around
.
No, all right, but yeah, that'sit, and we'll have part three
of the Grimm Brothers in a week.
Woo, bye, bye.
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