The Fox Sisters

Maggie and Kate Fox sparked the American seance craze after their older sister Leah, turned a parlor prank into a booming business model that still haunts today’s mediums and paranormal shows. Listen as we explain how the Fox sisters communicated with the dead. 

Sources:

History.com, HeadStuff.org, National Women's Historical Society, Archive.org,

Original Report of the Hydesville Haunting , The Fox Sisters and the Birth of Spiritualism, NYHeritage.org 

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_04 (00:13):
Hello, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
Hey, hey, hey.

SPEAKER_04 (00:15):
I'm Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
And I'm Cole.

SPEAKER_04 (00:17):
And you're listening to Borrowed Bones, a podcast
about fucked up, interesting,and toxic families.

SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 (00:25):
It's good to be back.

SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
Yes.
Two weeks ago today.
Yes.
Day of our recording right now.
Sarah underwent surgery on bothof her feet.

SPEAKER_04 (00:36):
I did.
Everyone keeps asking what itis.
I would ask too if I saw twoboots or a cast on someone.
A bone spur in each foot and abunion on the right.
So I have new hardware in myright foot and I can hobble
along a little bit with my leftfoot.

SPEAKER_00 (00:53):
She's got one of those scooters.

SPEAKER_04 (00:55):
Yep.
If you see me crawling, justlook away.
Just look away.
It's fine.
I'm okay.
I'm getting strong.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02):
But yeah, we're back.
Oh, and today is Halloween.
When this is released, it won'tbe Halloween, but today is
Halloween, so that's fun for us.
Yeah.
When this is released, it'll beNovember 5th.
Remember, remember the 5th ofNovember.
Guy Fox Day.
Which is pretty cool, I stillthink.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
Although Guy Fox was not what everyone with Viva
Fendetta thinks.
He was just another wannabetyrant.
He wasn't trying to overthrowParliament for the good, yeah.
He just wanted to replace itwith Catholicism.

unknown (01:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
So it's like, oh, you know.

SPEAKER_04 (01:38):
Even though this will come out after Halloween,
um, since we're recording onHalloween, I still wanted to do
something a little bit in thatvein.

SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
Spooky?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:49):
Spooky-ish, kind of, you know, not a haunting really,
but um let's get into it.
Let's just get into it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:54):
All right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:55):
We are starting in the early mid to 1800s America.

SPEAKER_01 (02:00):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (02:01):
John and Margaret Fox.

SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
F O X.
F-O-X.
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (02:05):
They are a young married couple, and they're
starting their lives in New YorkState.

unknown (02:11):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (02:12):
Between the years of 1810 and 1820, the couple would
have four children.
I don't really know the names ofall of them.
I've seen different accounts,different names.
There's minor details that aredifferent in various sources
that I found, but the main storyis the same.
So little details are going tobe a little wishy-washy in this

(02:34):
one.

SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
It's the era.

SPEAKER_04 (02:35):
Yeah.
But the main story is the sameoverall.
So four children.
The one child in this bunch youneed to think about is Anna or
Anne Leah.
She goes by Leah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
Leah.

SPEAKER_04 (02:47):
So we have Leah, Margaret, and John.
And the other siblings.
It doesn't matter.
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (02:53):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (02:54):
In the late 1820s, their father, John, he left the
family to straighten himselfout.
He was an alcoholic.
So he wanted to get away.
Detox.
Yeah, he did.
Okay.
I don't really know the details,but that's that's it.

SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
He never came home.

SPEAKER_04 (03:09):
He did.
Oh.
In the 1830s, around 1830,actually, like that year.

SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
It's like a very year or two.

SPEAKER_04 (03:16):
John came home.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He he returned home andstraightened himself out.
He was better.
And Margaret accepted him, andthey would end up having two
more children.
One in 1833.
Her name is Margaret orMargaretta.
Goes by Maggie.

SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
Maggie.

SPEAKER_04 (03:32):
To not be confused with the mother Margaret.

SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (03:35):
Okay.
So we have Margaret Mom Maggiedaughter.

SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
Margaret Jr.

SPEAKER_04 (03:39):
We should do that.
Why not?

SPEAKER_00 (03:40):
Girls ever call junior when they're they have
the same name as their mom or uhI don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (03:45):
Probably something stupid.
Like women don't carry a familyname type of bullshit.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
King of the Hill, uh, the Laotian family, the the
girl was Con Jr.
She was named after her dad.

SPEAKER_04 (03:57):
I love that.
Yeah, con Junior.
No one's stopping you.

SPEAKER_00 (04:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (04:01):
I named my dog after me because I knew I wouldn't
have a kid, and I just wanted tokind of be like Lorelei Gilmore
a little bit and name my dogafter myself.

SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
That's weird.

SPEAKER_04 (04:12):
It wasn't I okay.
I named her after my middlename.
Yeah.
So I wasn't yelling my own name,but it's after me a hundred
percent.
Yep.
So when John came back in eight-Oh yeah, sorry.
The the girls are or Mar Maggiewas born in 1833.
There we are.
Got back on track.
And then Catherine was born in1837.

(04:35):
That's their last child.

SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
Okay, last of six.

SPEAKER_04 (04:38):
Catherine will go by Kate from here on out.
During this time, the family waswandering here and there, trying
to make their way.
They weren't really a well-to-dofamily.

SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
Itinerant farmers, kinda.

SPEAKER_04 (04:51):
I don't really know exactly what their work was, but
I saw that John was alwayslooking for work.
So I think he did like oddthings, whatever jobs he could
pick up, just handyman kinda.
Who knows?
Yeah.
But this did leave Margaret athome with the children by
herself quite a bit, doing mostof the child rearing.
Their daughter Leah, the onethat was born the fourth.

SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
Oh yeah.
Leah's the fourth, sorry.

SPEAKER_04 (05:16):
I don't know if she is the fourth, but she's in the
top four.

unknown (05:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (05:20):
Leah left home in 1845 when she was 14 years old.

SPEAKER_00 (05:25):
Damn, where'd she go?

SPEAKER_04 (05:26):
She married a man named Bowman Fish.

SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
Oh.

SPEAKER_04 (05:31):
And they would have a daughter together.

SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
Fox and fish wedding.

SPEAKER_04 (05:34):
Yeah.
Oh yeah, I didn't even think ofthat.

SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Come attend the fox fish wedding.

SPEAKER_04 (05:40):
I know.
That doesn't sound why it soundsgross, but it does.

SPEAKER_00 (05:43):
It just sounds gross.

SPEAKER_04 (05:44):
Sounds like something we should be eating.

SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
It sounds like a hybrid animal.

SPEAKER_04 (05:47):
Oh, yeah.
Oh, that's a bad vision.

SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
Picture a fox with like gills and fins.

SPEAKER_04 (05:51):
Oh, swimming in the water.
Okay.
By the end of 1847, Mr.
Fish abandoned Leah and theirdaughter.
And Leah was only 16, singlemom.
Oh, already failed marriage.
Yeah.
I mean, that's most likely nother fault, right?
She's 14.

(06:12):
Like, but I'm just saying thatsucks.

SPEAKER_00 (06:14):
Life sucks.

SPEAKER_04 (06:15):
Mm-hmm.
The rest of the Fox family atthis time moved into a farmhouse
in Hydesville, New York.

SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
All right.

SPEAKER_04 (06:24):
This is also in 1847.
Now, a little bit about the areathey're in, because this is
relevant to what happens withthis family.
Hydesville is a small hamlet onthe west side of New York State.
This was considered a burnedover district.

SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
What does that mean?

SPEAKER_04 (06:41):
Okay, I didn't know.
I have never heard of this.

SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
A lot of forest fires.

SPEAKER_04 (06:45):
No, I that's what I thought too.
I was like, oh, is there a lotof like logging industry?

SPEAKER_00 (06:49):
Like is it like actually burned from like
something?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (06:52):
I thought of like a logging industry, like the the
everything's cut down, so itlooks like it's been burned or
something.
But nope, not nothing to do withany of that.
When I looked into it, this is alittle bit of a history lesson,
so buckle up, I'll go fast.
During the 1830s and 40s inAmerica, a lot of reform was
happening.
There were abolitionists, therewas the Civil War, brewing was

(07:16):
going brewing, basically, and ithappened in the mid-1800s.

SPEAKER_03 (07:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (07:19):
Um, and then women's rights movements were happening,
even like vegetarianism was anew thing.

SPEAKER_00 (07:25):
Opposing animal cruelty.
Yes.
Got its start around this time,too.

SPEAKER_04 (07:29):
Yes.
All this new stuff was happeningin America at this time.
And people were starting tobelieve in science a bit more.
There was more, well, I thinkthe second Great Awakening is
what this time period is called.
In response to all of this,though, there was quite the
religious revival at this timein America.
Think.
Mormonism.
We have Joseph Smith.
He's out and about runningaround.

(07:50):
He's actually in the Midwest,kind of in this area.
Um, he takes what the promisedland of Ohio is the first one,
but then they realize it's notOhio and it's Utah or Illinois.

SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
Right.
Yeah.
Ohio, Missouri, Illinois, Utah.

SPEAKER_04 (08:04):
Just whoever wouldn't kick them out.
I don't know why they're calledburned over specifically, but
that's what they're referring tois this like religious revival
movement.

SPEAKER_01 (08:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (08:12):
How the pendulum is swinging, right?
You have science on the rise,you have religion on the rise.
Clash.
So yeah, America dealing with alot.
This also led to another newbelief called spiritualism.

SPEAKER_01 (08:27):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (08:28):
Or spiritism.
Now I looked into both of thesebecause they are two different
things, but in my research, it'sused very liberally.
The words are usedinterchangeably because at the
time it wasn't like these hardrules on which one is which.
They was just like spirits.
Yeah.
So I'm going to use them prettyinterchangeably.
Don't get on me if you are aspiritist or a spiritualist.

SPEAKER_00 (08:50):
Soulism.

SPEAKER_04 (08:51):
Yeah.
Like they're it's just spirits,okay?
That's the main focus today isspirits.

SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
It's all fictional.
So ultimately, it doesn't matterwhat you call the studies,
because they're both fake.
Hokum is what you could call it.

SPEAKER_04 (09:06):
Well, we're gonna talk about it.
Yeah.
This is basically the birth ofspiritualism.
Not the birth, but at this timeframe, it is the birth of the
thing.

SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
It becomes like an industry at this point.
It becomes like a commodity.

SPEAKER_04 (09:15):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
You have always believed in weird things.
This is the thing.
Right.
It starts becoming like acapitalist.
It's when it starts to have morea dime off it.

SPEAKER_04 (09:23):
Yes.
Exactly.
You're on the nodes or on themoney.
So um also with science cominginto play, people wanted more
physical proof of spirits,right?
So photography, ectoplasm,things like that.
They wanted to see the orbs,they wanted to see the

(09:43):
ectoplasm, they wanted to seeall these things happening
because they thought withscience, we can prove that
there's life after death.
We can prove that we are talkingto the spirits.
I think of Zach Baggins today.

SPEAKER_00 (09:57):
Speaking of, I just learned yesterday that he
apparently owns.
This is whether you brought thisup.
He owns Ted Bundy's kill kitthat police confiscated, like
his mask, his burglar kit.
I don't know how he got it.
Apparently he bought it.
But like it's weird that any onecitizen just has that.
Like it's police evidence.

SPEAKER_04 (10:17):
It's odd, yeah.
It's really evidence.
It should be in like a museum orevidence.

SPEAKER_00 (10:21):
Volkswagens in a museum.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (10:22):
Like it's weird that he owns it.

SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (10:26):
Interesting.
Damn it.
That would make me go see hisshit though.

SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Yeah.
But I don't want to pay.
Oh.
I don't know.
I just know that he owns it.
He owns it.
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (10:36):
That's weird.
I just I don't know why.
It just doesn't feel right.

SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
Yeah.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (10:40):
I don't know.
Anyway.
Um, but yes.
So basically what you weresaying, this story is about the
first American seances andcommunication with the dead.

SPEAKER_00 (10:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (10:50):
That's what this is about.

SPEAKER_00 (10:51):
Okay.
Yeah, I didn't know the Foxfamily specifically, but I know
enough about this era ofspiritualism.

SPEAKER_04 (10:59):
Everything that's going on.
Yeah.
Now, Hydesville, specificallythe Hydesville location that
they lived in, it was along acanal that helped connect boats,
travelers, everything to theMidwest.

SPEAKER_02 (11:11):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (11:11):
So that's how everything is spreading.
Like I mentioned before,everything was spreading across
the country, kind of from NewEngland area across the West.

unknown (11:21):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (11:22):
So keep all of that history in your back pocket.
Back to the Fox family.
New Year's Eve of 1847.
So going into 1848, John Fox wasawakened by banging that was
happening around the house.
He couldn't figure out where thenoise was coming from.
Did you think like sex banging?

(11:42):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 (11:43):
I think I know, I think I do know this case
vaguely.
I think you know it a little bittoo.
But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (11:49):
I do think you know a little bit.
Yeah.
So he heard like banging orrapping sounds around the house,
and he's looking for, he can'tfind anything.
And these sounds kind ofcontinue on and off for the next
few weeks.
And John just chalked it up tolike the neighbors doing work,
or maybe there's like rats intheir walls.
He's just like, I don't know,whatever.

(12:10):
Now his wife Margaret, she wasconvinced that their house was
haunted and that other worldlybeings were at large.
Margaret comes from a family ofbelievers.
I saw that one resource I lookedat said she came from a family
of clairvoyance.
Other ones said that she camefrom a family of believers.

(12:30):
Either way, she believes inspirits.
A few more weeks go by, thesounds continue, and Mrs.
Fox is getting more and moredistressed.
And then finally, on the nightof March 31st, 1848.
So we're we're pretty far intoit now, and these sounds are
kind of going on and off here.
Things ramped up a bit thisnight, March 31st.

(12:53):
The two youngest children,Maggie and Kate, they decided to
interact with these sounds.
Maggie was 14 at the time, andKate was 11 at this time.
All right.
Okay, so the next thing is I'mgoing to reference accounts from
the author E.
E.
Lewis, who wrote a 40-pagepamphlet.

(13:14):
It's titled A Report of theMysterious Noises Heard in the
House of John D.
Fox.

SPEAKER_00 (13:19):
He wrote this like contemporaneously at the time.
He wrote it.
Not like recently.

SPEAKER_04 (13:23):
He's like a No, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He wrote it like the followingmonth.
Okay.
Yes.
Yes.
He he spoke firsthand, gotaccount.
These are all accounts.
Okay.
It's I yeah.
I couldn't actually find thepamphlet itself.
Yeah.
But I found a website that saidthat they they they posted a
picture of the pamphlet, andthen they said that they
transcribed word for word whatthe pamphlet said, and it sounds

(13:44):
accurate and it it corroborateswell with other sources I've
found.
The stories are the same.
It's the best I could get.
So here we are.

SPEAKER_02 (13:53):
Here we are.

SPEAKER_04 (13:54):
All right.
Lewis interviewed people, andI'm going to give Margaret's
account because hers is the mainone.
Everyone agrees with her andconfirms it.
So it's all the same.
It's pretty redundant pamphlet.
Margaret is the one that reallylays it out the most.
Margaret said they moved intotheir farmhouse December 11th of

(14:15):
1847.
On March 31st, she said that shewent to bed early.
The sun hadn't even set yetbecause she was trying to go to
sleep before the sounds wouldstart.
And so she started to go tosleep a lot sooner.
She was very tired.
She was starting to get sickbecause of just stress.
Yeah, exhaustion.
But soon after Margaret laid herhead down, the sounds started up

(14:38):
with the banging.
And Maggie and Kate, like Isaid, decided to interact with
the sounds.
And Kate jokingly spoke to thenoise and said, Now do just as I
do.
Count.
One, two, three, four, clappingher hands to the beat.
The sound responded with fourknocks.

(15:01):
Margaret then said she asked, soMargaret jumps in now.
And she said that she asked thenoise to count to ten, responded
with ten knocks.
Then Margaret asked the noisewhat the ages of her children
were, and the sound respondedwith the correct number of
knocks for each child's age.
Margaret continues to askquestions and discovers that the

(15:23):
source of the sound was from theghost of a man who was murdered
in the house and buried underthe basement.

SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
How old is this house?
I don't I always assume in thisera, like you just build your
own house.
Because like nothing's settledyet.

SPEAKER_04 (15:38):
Well, listen to the story of the man has a story.
So we'll listen.

SPEAKER_00 (15:42):
Does he found uh chiropractic?

SPEAKER_04 (15:45):
Oh Palmer.
We're not in Iowa.

SPEAKER_00 (15:47):
This is how ghosts founded a Hokum medical
practice.

SPEAKER_04 (15:50):
We're not in Iowa.

SPEAKER_00 (15:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (15:52):
Anyway.
Um so this man was a peddler, atraveling salesman, and he owed
another man$500.

SPEAKER_01 (16:02):
That's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_04 (16:04):
And around that time, that was around$22,000.

SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Wow.

SPEAKER_04 (16:08):
Mm-hmm.
He says that he left behind awife and five children.
And according to Margaret inLewis's account, this is when
her husband John went to go getsome neighbors.
And then a lot of neighbors endup coming, and they all were
asking the peddler manquestions.
As they're asking him questions,they establish like how to

(16:30):
communicate with him, you know,using the alphabet with
corresponding numbers, one knockfor A, two knocks for B, um, yes
or no questioning, you know, oneknock for yes, two knocks for
no.
I don't know exactly what theirpattern was, but they had did
something like that.

SPEAKER_00 (16:43):
It's like Teo in Breaking Bad.
Ding ding ding ding ding.
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (16:46):
Well, he didn't.

SPEAKER_00 (16:47):
Well, they had like the letters.
Remember they would hold up andlike row one.
And then they'd move the fingeruntil like you hit the letter.

SPEAKER_04 (16:53):
So can you imagine how long it would take to get
just a sentence out of this?
But you had nothing better to doin 1847, right?
Or 1848.
So through more questioning,they discovered the man's name

(18:46):
was Charles B.
Rosna.
They also gave him a name of Mr.
Splitfoot.
So you'll hear both names whenyou hear about this story.
I don't know where the name Mr.
Splitfoot comes from.

SPEAKER_00 (18:58):
Wouldn't some of the neighbors remember him in life?
If like when if it's my house ishaunted by this ghost, wouldn't
I just go to the neighbor and belike, hey, do you remember the
guy that looked you before me?
Was he named this?
Did he disappear?

SPEAKER_04 (19:11):
Well, he was a traveling salesman.

SPEAKER_00 (19:12):
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 (19:13):
We don't know.
So Charles, the travelingsalesman or Mr.
Splitfoot, says that he wasmurdered in the bedroom of the
house five years earlier.

SPEAKER_01 (19:23):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (19:23):
So it's a recent-ish murder.
So I honestly thought the samething too.
Like, can't we just discover whothese people are?

SPEAKER_02 (19:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (19:30):
But when they questioned, you know, can we
still contact your wife and yourchildren?
Can we still whatever?
Apparently his wife is dead andthe children are out of town.
Like they're they moved away.
And, you know, the murderer,don't worry about him.
He's gone too.
Like everyone's gone that wasinvolved, is how the story goes.

SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
But the ghost didn't live at the house.
He was like a door-to-doorsalesman who visited in the in
theory, whoever lived there,killed or buried him.

SPEAKER_04 (19:54):
I think so.
We honestly, it's little girlstelling the story, Cole.
That's what it is.
Spoiler.
I'm gonna spoil it in like twominutes anyway.
This isn't about the reality ofspirits or not.
This isn't.
It's about how spiritualismbecame a money grabbing business
and is exploiting all of you.
Every medium that takes moneyfrom you is exploiting you.
The end.

(20:14):
You can take you can turn offthe podcast now.
Yeah.
That's it.
But anyway, um, yeah.
Murdered, buried in theirbasement five years ago.
Don't ask any more questions,okay?
We have we have young teens,preteens telling the story,
okay?

SPEAKER_00 (20:28):
Dig it up.

SPEAKER_04 (20:29):
They did.

SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
That's the first thing I would do.

SPEAKER_04 (20:31):
The neighbors did, and they only found groundwater.

SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (20:33):
So they are doing things that you would think,
yes, but they're coming up emptyand they're just reasoning it
off as just, oh, I guess wedidn't find them.
Okay.
The murderer of Charles was aman named Mr.
Bell.
And Charles said that Mr.
Bell cut his throat with abutcher knife and then dragged
him into the cellar and buriedhim.

SPEAKER_01 (20:55):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (20:56):
The following day, people heard, like more people
in the town heard what was goingon, and they wanted to come and
check out the Foxhouse.
So, like, as days continue, moreand more people are showing up.
Around 300 people showed up thefollowing day.

SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
Again, there's nothing to do if you're not
working.

SPEAKER_04 (21:14):
Exactly.
Yeah, there's nothing to do.
Like the amount of boredompeople had back then, like this
was something you would be like,yep, I have the time.
I'll do it.
I have the time.
Yeah.
I'm just watching the sun.
So the following day, at thispoint, it's now April 2nd, and
the noises started up again andthey continued on.

SPEAKER_00 (21:32):
It's the day after April Fool's Day.
I love that it started on March31st.

unknown (21:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:37):
April Fool's Day.
I mean, it's the first.
And it's around April Fool'sDay.

SPEAKER_04 (21:41):
So even though many locals were believing these
rapping sounds, the local paperswere not so sure.
Because everyone hates the pressfor exposing the truth.
Many papers thought that the dadwas to blame, that it was John
doing this.
Yeah.
They didn't know how, but theywere like, someone's fucking
doing this.
Like it's John.
Why not?

(22:02):
Some papers were thinking thatmaybe the children were pulling
a prank.

SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (22:08):
After all, it's April Fool's Day.

SPEAKER_00 (22:10):
And their kids.

SPEAKER_04 (22:11):
And their kids and they're bored.

SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
And if you're a kid who has the undivided attention
of adults, you just you do whatyou can to keep that.
You tell like that's what youthat's how you learn to
manipulate is oh, I can get aadult to pay attention to me.
Yep.

SPEAKER_04 (22:29):
Yep.
So now, early April, everythingis there's a lot of curiosity
swirling around the girls.
And Margaret, their mom, beganto get worried about all of the
attention that they werereceiving.
Now, here's another part in thestory where the details get a
little twisted, but the resultis the same.
But just because I'm who I am, Ihave to tell you both details

(22:51):
and both threads.
So after mom started gettingconcerned about her daughters
and how much attention they'regetting now, one theory is that
their mom sent them to live withtheir sister Leah, who's now
living in Rochester, to get awayfrom all the commotion.
Leah was still adjusting tosingle life after Bowman Fish

(23:13):
left her.
And she was working as a pianoteacher.
That's how she was.
She was just a piano teacher.
Not much of a living there.
Like she's making it, butbarely.
Now the other story is that Leahwas shown a page of the pamphlet
that E.E.
Lewis wrote by one of her pianostudents.
And when she read the pamphlet,she went home to Hydesville to

(23:36):
check up on everyone.
And then she was the one thatsuggested the sisters move back
with her.
Okay.
Either way, they end up withLeah.
So we have Leah, Maggie, andKate, the Fox sisters.
Okay.
That's the title of thisepisode.
Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (23:53):
The Sisters Fox.

SPEAKER_04 (23:55):
Yes.
Now, Leah was born in the early1800s, remember?
There's like a 20-year age gap.
So she's like closer to being amom to them than and I think
this is important to notebecause of how it all shakes
out.
So I like to just Yeah.
Upon arriving at Leah's house inRochester, Leah made Maggie and

(24:17):
Kate strip down naked.

SPEAKER_01 (24:19):
As you do.

SPEAKER_04 (24:21):
Classic.
You know, whenever I go to mysister's.
All right, get to it.

SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
I mean, if you're loving people in your house, you
want to see what they got.
Come to my house and we're gonnagive them an ocular pat down.
Fair.

SPEAKER_04 (24:32):
Leah, Leah insisted that her that they show her how
they're making the sounds.
Leah was not blinded the waythat her mother was by these
girls.
She was like, I don't know howy'all are doing it, but it's
YouTube.
Oh, so that's why she's gettingnow.

SPEAKER_00 (24:47):
Okay, yeah.
Let me see where you're hidingthings.
That's why she's making themnaked.
Like in a yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (24:51):
No, she just wants to how are you doing this?
Show me, do it now.
Yeah.
And Maggie and Kate very quicklyconfessed their deceit.
They're like, oh shit.
Yep.
And they showed Leah how theymade the knocking sounds.

SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
They hit their fist against a wall.

SPEAKER_04 (25:08):
Oh, do you yeah.
Do you have any guesses?

SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
They stomped their feet.
I mentioned it was very notcomplicated.

SPEAKER_04 (25:14):
It's not complicated, but it's not
something that I could do.

SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
Oh, so there is something to it.

SPEAKER_04 (25:18):
A little bit.

SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (25:20):
Um, I think it's more genetics, honestly.
I think they got a little lucky.

SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (25:24):
They would crack the knuckles of their toes by
pressing them or snapping themagainst the floor, which would
produce a louder sound than youwould really think.

SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
This was so loud that it kept people awake.

SPEAKER_04 (25:37):
It would like like well, if you think it's a spirit
making that sound too.
You know, you're nerve.

SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
I guess I was picturing like, you know, thump,
thump, not just like like snaps.

SPEAKER_04 (25:47):
Sometimes they're different.
They they've used other thingshere and there.
At one point, they were usinglike apples tied to string to
kind of roll around, and thenthey would the pull the apples
in real quick once someone wouldcome.
But if you're if when they wereperforming in front of people,
it was knuckles snapping againstlike the ground.
If they would do it against theground somehow.

SPEAKER_03 (26:05):
All right.

SPEAKER_04 (26:06):
And I don't know how, but that's why I think
genetic because like there aresome people that can just crack
their knuckles really loud andthey can do weird shit with
their like I've seen people withlike monkey-like toes.
And maybe these girls had that.
I don't know.
That's why I think it's genetic,but it was easy for them to do.
Yeah.
When Leah tried to do the samething, she wasn't able to do it

(26:26):
as well as her sisters.
There's one person that wasthinking, one researcher that I
was reading that was surmisingthat maybe because the girls
were younger, their toes weremore nimble and flexible.
Yeah.
And so they were able to snapthem like harder.

SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (26:41):
That's something to think about.
Theory.
Yeah.
But Leah knew right away thatshe had something special.
She saw an opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 (26:51):
She was aware of the area of what's going on around
her.

SPEAKER_00 (26:54):
She knew she knew how dumb her neighbors were.

SPEAKER_04 (26:56):
She she knew what was up, and she knew that people
were grasping at anything tohold on to.
So why not hold on to the dead?
It wasn't long before thesisters received their first
message from a spirit whileliving with Leah.

SPEAKER_01 (27:09):
Oh.

SPEAKER_04 (27:11):
The message said, or was, I guess, spoken to them or
knocked to them.
Dear friends, this is from thespirit.
Dear friends, you must proclaimthese truths to the world.
This is the dawn of a new age,and you must no longer hide it.
When you do your duty, God willprotect you and good spirits
will watch over you.

(27:33):
So basically, hey, we'respirits, we're here.
You should tell people that weexist.
Well, the girls obviously haveto obey these spirits.

SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Why don't the spirits just appear to everyone
if they want to be known?

SPEAKER_04 (27:48):
That's not how it works, Cole.
God, come on.
If my mom really wants to talkto me, she'll find Long Island
Medium and have me buy a ticketand be in her audience, and then
she's gonna communicate with me.
Not directly.
Uh anyway.
Sorry.
By the fall of 1849, so it'sbeen about 18 months now since

(28:12):
the sounds started.
The sisters would have thesupport of dozens of families.
So they're growing.
But Maggie and Kate werestarting to really feel bad.
They were like, I don't know.
They didn't like deceivingpeople.
They like they felt bad aboutit.
It was a joke at first, and nowit's like so what began as a

(28:34):
childish prank ended up being afull-time job for Maggie and
Kate.
And they were not very happyabout it.
So they agreed that the ruse hadgone on long enough.

SPEAKER_00 (28:44):
Oh, you enjoyed something and then it was
ruined.
Welcome to capitalism.

SPEAKER_04 (28:48):
Yeah.
Um, they're not even gettingpaid for this right now.
During during one of theirseances, well, during their last
seance, they reported that thespirits bid them farewell for
the final time.
Leah wasn't happy about this,but she couldn't really force
her sisters to perform, so thatwas it.

SPEAKER_00 (29:08):
The spirits have to go die again.

SPEAKER_04 (29:11):
But it was only 12 days before Maggie and Kate
decided to come back.

SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
Twelve days.

SPEAKER_04 (29:17):
Twelve days, that's it.
So the spirits came back, andthe return message was even more
insistent on showing the public.
Like you have to let us be knownto the public.
And the spirits had a plan thistime.

SPEAKER_01 (29:32):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (29:33):
The Fox sisters needed to rent the Corinthian
Hall, which was Rochester'snewest and largest auditorium at
the time, which would later beknown as the Rochester Academy
of Music.

SPEAKER_01 (29:45):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (29:45):
Okay.
There was an ad for this showput in the paper, and it said
marvelous phenomena atCorinthian Hall.
Tickets were 25 cents a personand 50 cents for any man who
came with two ladies on hisarms.

SPEAKER_00 (30:00):
Oh.
Wait a minute.

SPEAKER_04 (30:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
You paid more?

SPEAKER_04 (30:04):
50 cents for a man with two women.

SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 (30:07):
You pay less because women don't matter.
So the event opened with alecture and then a demonstration
of the girls communicating withthe spirits.
This is the first time they'regetting some money here.
But this isn't for a seance oranything.

(30:27):
They're just talking to spiritsis just a show, a presentation.
And there's a five-membercommittee that's set up to
investigate the authenticity ofthe sounds during this
demonstration.

SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
All right.

SPEAKER_04 (30:41):
Okay.
On November 14th.

SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
I love this era before like any technology.
Like you just put your ear out.
That's all you can do.
Like, there's nothing tomeasure.

SPEAKER_04 (30:51):
Yeah, just list who has the best hearing.

SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
There's nothing objective.
Who heard it?
Yep.
I didn't hear it.
Okay.
Well, that's our study.

SPEAKER_04 (30:58):
And as soon as you say you heard it, oh, I think I
heard it too.
Oh, I think I did.

SPEAKER_00 (31:01):
There's no recordings.
There's no objectivemeasurement.
It's just, do you hear it ornot?

SPEAKER_04 (31:06):
At best, we have early photography right now, you
know, which takes like 10minutes.

SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (31:10):
So on November 14th, 1849, 400 people attended the
show.

SPEAKER_01 (31:16):
Damn.

SPEAKER_04 (31:17):
The five-person committee ascertained that there
were no tricks to be had.
They said, this is legit.
But the audience didn't believethe committee, which was
surprising.
So another committee was formedand another performance was done
the next night.
The second committee came to thesame conclusion, no tricks.
Then the third night, becausethe audience said we don't

(31:39):
believe it.
Then there was a third night,another committee was formed.
Sorry, another committee wasformed and no tricks were found
yet again.
But the third night, as thecommittee was Stating their
findings to the crowd, severalmen rushed to the stage trying
to grab the girls.
And then there were also someboys that brought like
firecrackers into the auditoriumthat someone random just

(32:03):
happened to hand them.

SPEAKER_01 (32:05):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (32:06):
Leah s seemed to enjoy this chaos.
Leah eventually later in lifewould say, according to Maggie,
Leah would say that she plannedall of that chaos all along.
And that Leah knew that byadding like a martyr to this new
trend of spiritualism thatpeople would be more likely to

(32:27):
believe.
It would be persecuted for likea religious persecution.
Yes.
Promoting sympathy and tying thesupporters in emotionally.
I don't know what I can think oftoday.
That's the same.
Anyway, moving on.
With the growing fan base,people began flocking to see the
Fox sisters now.
They were a hit.

(32:48):
And at this time, Leah begansuggesting that each visitor
donate a dollar.

SPEAKER_00 (32:55):
Donate a dollar.
Okay.
To what?
Their food and just just theirupkeep?
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (33:03):
Well, that's their job now.
She wants that to be their job.
So yeah, for them to live, yes.
But she's monetizing now, right?

SPEAKER_00 (33:10):
Your 12 shouldn't have to have a job anyway.

SPEAKER_04 (33:12):
Well, Leah's like older.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
But yeah, she's making heryounger sisters have jobs.
Yeah.
So this would be Make Americagreat again.

SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
That's what will be.
Get your 12-year-old out.

SPEAKER_04 (33:24):
Oh yeah.
Isn't there child labor back innow?
Yeah, there's a lot of statesthat are like rolling it back
and a lot of the Midwest istrying to get that farm labor
back in.
Yeah.
Whatever.
This would be the first timepeople would pay to see a
seance.
So here it is.
All right.
We've monetized seances.
Leah quickly assumed a managerrole over her younger sisters.

(33:46):
She would take them on tour, andthey were no longer just a local
attraction.
Now they were a regionalattraction.
They would perform three shows aday, and each show had 30 people
attending these like groupsessions.
So, like I said before, LongIsland medium think like, oh,
I'm thinking of a letter of aletter P.
Yeah, like that bullshit.

(34:07):
Yes.
They were the first ones to dothat.
So all of the mediums, quoteunquote mediums today can thank
the Fox sisters for yourbusiness that you have, not for
the gift that you claim.
Sorry.
I'm so sick of people exploitingdeath.
I I hate it.
I hate it.

SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
That's the Long Island.
Isn't there like a Long Islandmedium?
Which I always say.
That's what I've been saying.
Yeah, I didn't say that'shilarious as a title, just
because like I always think ofSeinfeld of like, I'm not taking
advice from some girl from LongIsland.

unknown (34:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (34:38):
Yeah.
Like call yourself New Yorkmedium or something.
Like Long Island medium is solike ew.

SPEAKER_03 (34:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I wouldn't believe her.
Yeah.
That's the truth.

SPEAKER_00 (34:48):
So why can't you find the serial killer that's on
Long Island Beach if you're sucha great find the serial killer
that's operating in yourneighborhood?
Like Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (34:56):
If these things existed, we would have a totally
different world that we live in.
It'd be so much better.
It would be so fuckingdifferent.
It'd be insanely different.
It'd be fantastic.
I would love it.
Like, I wish.
Anyway.
So they would do these 30-personshows three a day at and
charging now$1 per head.
So they're$90 a day right there.

(35:18):
But then they were also doingprivate seances during those
days as well, charging fivedollars total for those seances.
Ah.

SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
So they're upcharging.
They're doing, they're like gota whole, yeah.
This is the general plan.
This is the exclusive plan.
This is the VIP members getthis.
Yes.
You to carry on tote with ourlogo on it, too.

SPEAKER_03 (35:40):
Love tote.

SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
You get a signed poster of the Fox Sisters to
take home.

SPEAKER_04 (35:43):
Ooh.
They if only they could domerch.
They're probably not wondering.
Oh my god.
Probably not.
But I don't know.
Merch though would be great forthem.
Um, so yeah, they're making like$100 a day.
And this is in 1849.
So this would be like making$4,200 a day today.

SPEAKER_01 (36:02):
Wow.

SPEAKER_04 (36:03):
They were raking it in.
In early 1850, the sisterstoured throughout New England.
They would perform in the homesof the wealthy and the
well-connected.
And it seemed that everyone waseager to believe in this fad of
spiritualism.
People were very eager to hop onthis train.
They wanted it.

(36:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (36:25):
The ghost train.

SPEAKER_04 (36:26):
Yeah, the ghost train.
Ooh.
Some people were starting toview the sisters as prophets of
a new era, forming a newrelationship between Earth and
the kingdom of heaven.

SPEAKER_00 (36:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (36:37):
So science meeting religion.
People wanted these two worldsto go together.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
Similar with Mormonism, too.
Like they a lot of JosephSmith's claims of the prior
civilizations was becausethere's all these like Native
American graves and monumentspeople were finding.
So they were finding evidence ofa civilization beforehand.
So they would take and try tothey'd invent their own
mythologies of where do thesemass graves come from?

(37:04):
Oh, there was well it's NativeAmericans.

SPEAKER_04 (37:07):
That's yeah, yeah.
It's nothing, it's not yourpeople, it's other people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
However, though, with all of thefans amassing, they were also
gaining some skeptics.
During a trip through New York,a group of men tried to kidnap
Maggie because they wereoffended by her claims.

(37:27):
And this was a legit likekidnapping.
This wasn't something Leah putup.
So like there were some peopleout there like, you need to shut
up, you dumb bitch.

SPEAKER_00 (37:34):
A lot of the religious establishment being
threatened by the I bet.

SPEAKER_04 (37:39):
Yeah, I bet.
The press was also still prettyrelentless, constantly calling
them out for lying.
Most of the press, you know,publications agreed that the
girls were making the soundsthemselves, but they weren't
really sure how.
So they were speculating.
Some thought that the girlscould do it because they had a
special electrical conditionthat is found in the bodies of

(38:03):
mediums.
That's what I mean.
Not everyone can be a mediumcole.
There's an answer for that.
They have just different bodies.
Other papers thought that maybethe sisters had like lead balls
along the edge of their skirts.

SPEAKER_01 (38:17):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (38:18):
Um, others did think they were cracking their knees
or their toes.

SPEAKER_00 (38:21):
No.

SPEAKER_04 (38:21):
So some people heard those sounds.

SPEAKER_00 (38:23):
Just cracking their knuckles, you fucks.

SPEAKER_04 (38:25):
Exactly.
So I put these things in herebecause there was a whole side
of people that saw it and werelike, this isn't like this isn't
real.

SPEAKER_00 (38:34):
Throat history is always the minority of the
people that are smart.

SPEAKER_03 (38:38):
What do you wait?

SPEAKER_00 (38:40):
Like it's always like all the throat history,
it's in these big movements.
It's there are there are alwayspeople who are like, this is
stupid, or but it's always theminority group.

SPEAKER_04 (38:49):
Oh, the smart are always the minority.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I always say the dumb speak theloudest.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (38:54):
And there's more of them.
It's easier.

SPEAKER_04 (38:56):
It's easier to not process things.
It's easier to not slow down andthink.
It's easier to just acceptwhat's in front of you.
You have to think beyond that,though.
You have to go, this sounds likea crack.
Why does it sound like a crack?
Maybe they're cracking theirknuckles.
Like you can't just so thatsounds like a crack.
And they told me it was aspirit.
So like you have to think.

(39:17):
Anyway.
Even though the press was very,very close to cracking the case.
To the press's dismay, the themore that they speculated, the
more curious the public became.
Yep.
They're they're almost lightingthe fire without realizing it,
which that's what happens.

(39:39):
Larger cities in the countrywere now starting to hear of the
sisters' reputations.
Their story reached New YorkCity, and the editor of the New
York Tribune was Horace Greeleyat the time.
And he was one of the fewjournalists who believed the Fox
sisters.
It was reflected in Greeley'swriting about them that he

(40:00):
didn't lean one way or the otherand he just told their story.
So he was like professionalabout it.
But Leah liked that because mostpapers were saying that they
were liars.

SPEAKER_01 (40:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (40:09):
So Leah decided to take Maggie and Kate to New York
City because she knew she'd atleast have a supporter.
And the sisters arrived inManhattan on June 3rd in 1850.
They met with Horace Greeley andthey had a successful visit in
New York.
No one mocked them or suspectedthem of lying.
Fantastic.
Making it in New York meant thatevery other big city in the

(40:32):
country now took notice.

SPEAKER_00 (40:33):
They're like, oh, if you can make it there, you can
make it in New York.

SPEAKER_04 (40:37):
Mm-hmm.
That's true.
So after their successful NewYork City visit, the sisters are
now graduated from regionalstardom to national fame.
And they were invited to all ofthe major U.S.
cities to perform.
But not everyone was convinced.
There were plenty of people,like I said, that saw through

(40:59):
it.
And there was one person who isan anti-spiritist, and his name
was C.
Chauncey Burr.

SPEAKER_00 (41:07):
Chauncey.

SPEAKER_04 (41:08):
He was sick of it and he knew the sisters were a
fraud and he was going to proveit.
He was on a mission.
Burr discovered how to replicatethe sounds by popping his own
big toe.

SPEAKER_03 (41:17):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (41:17):
Right?
He's like, I can do it.
This is all they're doing.
This is all they're doing.
So in January of 1851.

SPEAKER_00 (41:24):
I got a ghost in my toe.
They're just going to spin that,aren't they?
They're just going to say, like,yeah, that's how we're doing it,
but it's still a ghost doing it.
That's how the ghost possessesour tongue.
Oh, God.

SPEAKER_04 (41:36):
You have a ghost toe.

SPEAKER_00 (41:37):
It's like the shining with his finger.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, it's just the toe instead.
Like, yes, we admit it's ourtoes, but still the ghost doing
it.

SPEAKER_03 (41:46):
Oh my God.

SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
Sounds legit.
Sounds reasonable.

SPEAKER_04 (41:50):
Well, in January of 1851, Burr presented lectures
for three days in a row in NewYork City, demonstrating himself
how he could make the samenoises.
All the while Burr's brother wasa part of the presentation as
well.
And he was manipulating thecrowd.
He was demonstrating to them howhe could control the minds of
the audience through suggestion,like pointing over to the right

(42:14):
side of the room when the whenBurr will crack his toe and say,
Oh, the sound came from overthere.
When really it just came fromthe same spot it's been coming
from.
But all you have to do issuggest.
And then your brain goes, itcame from over there.
And Burr was demonstrating boththings simultaneously.
Nope.
Unsuccessful.
People still believe the Foxsisters and Burr gave up.

(42:34):
He's like, I I don't know whatelse to do.
Soon after Burr's failedattempts, there was a more
thorough investigation done bythree physicians from the
University of Buffalo.
These would become known as theBuffalo Doctors.
I like that.
It's kind of cool sounding.

SPEAKER_00 (42:52):
Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo.

SPEAKER_04 (42:54):
Yeah.
Closets, closets, closets,closets.
You don't know what that's from.

SPEAKER_00 (42:58):
No, but the Buffalo Buffalo.
It's like a sentence that's likegrammatically correct with only
using the word buffalo likeseven times.

SPEAKER_03 (43:05):
Oh.

SPEAKER_00 (43:06):
It's like the adjective verb now, like a
buffalo, buffalo, buffalo,buffalo, buffalo.

SPEAKER_03 (43:10):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (43:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (43:11):
Cool.

SPEAKER_04 (43:12):
So I can't follow that shit.
The buffalo doctors observed thegirls and concluded the sounds
were fraudulent and the sisterswere producing them.
And they said they wereproducing them by popping their
joints.
These findings were published ina medical journal.
The Buffalo doctors also saidthey found a highly respectable

(43:33):
woman in town that could producethe same sounds with her knee.
And when Leah read thispublication, she insisted the
doctors do a privateinvestigation.
She was like, nope, let's doanother one.
And they accepted.
So during the privateinvestigation, the sisters were
told to sit on a sofa.
And when they did, the soundswere able to interact with

(43:55):
people.
Then the doctors had the girlssit in two separate chairs, and
then they put their feet up onlike other chairs, I guess, or
rested their feet up, you know,ankles on pillows and toes up
toward the sky.
While they did this, the noisesweren't able to communicate.
And then crazy.

(44:16):
And then the doctors held thegirls' knees together and would
ask the spirits questions.
And one doctor would kind ofplay with it a little bit.
He'd loosen the grip slightlyand he could feel the girl
trying to move her bones andlike a slight sound would
happen.
But then when he held themreally tight, nothing would
happen.
They're cracking their knees andtheir toes.

SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
How just quiet in general society and the world
was back then, before, you know,electricity and motor cars and
everything, like the ambientnoise that's just everywhere
today.
Oh, yeah.
A knuckle cracking is loudenough to think that's the voice
of a ghost.

SPEAKER_04 (44:55):
I bet it was a lot quiet.
Because you don't have like theelectric lamps everywhere.

(46:05):
I mean, the electricity wasaround, but like it wasn't as
big as it is, obviously, today.
And like just the Wi-Fi alonemakes a woo noise that we just
constant noise around us all thetime.
It probably is a lot quieterback then.
Yeah.

unknown (46:17):
Wow.

SPEAKER_03 (46:18):
I never thought of that.

SPEAKER_04 (46:21):
So the doctors wrote that, and this is quote because
I really love this.
They basically describe likecracking knuckles in a very like
1800s way.
They say, we have heard aboutseveral cases in which the
movements of the bones enteringother joints are produced by

(46:41):
muscular effort, giving rise tothe emission of sounds.
Yeah.
Well, they found it though.
So after these findings, thepublic was yet again intrigued
more than enraged.
They wanted more.

SPEAKER_00 (46:57):
Yeah.
Even when you tell them thatsomething was fake.
Even P.T.
Barnum realized that.

SPEAKER_04 (47:03):
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
He didn't even People just wantto show.
They don't care.

SPEAKER_00 (47:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (47:07):
Leah said that the Buffalo trials were a victory
for spiritualism.
She's like, this worked out inour favor.
This is great.

SPEAKER_00 (47:13):
No matter what happens, declare victory.

SPEAKER_04 (47:15):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
People will eventually think youwon.
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
But certain people just declare victory all the
time.

SPEAKER_04 (47:22):
Yeah.
Yep.
And then you win.
That's it.

unknown (47:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (47:25):
One of the Buffalo doctors, though, was not going
to accept this.
He was like, no, we proved thatthey're lying and you shouldn't
believe them.
Stop it.
So this doctor, he began touringaround and demonstrating how the
Fox sisters were frauds.
And then as he's doing this, thedoctor realizes that he was not
convincing people of theirfraud.

(47:47):
In fact, he discovered that hewas the cause for some people to
actually convert to spiritualismafter seeing his demonstration.

SPEAKER_00 (47:55):
You know, I encounter this too, like when
you try to disapprove something,like, and you can't, like, but
you can you can demonstrate whatthey're doing.
Yeah.
So it's like, why not just be acompetitor then and be like, you
know, I uh you know, I'm ascientist trying to show that
they can't do this.
Well, that's not working.
Fine.
I talk to ghosts too.
Here I am.
Yeah, here's$10.

(48:17):
Yeah, like just join them.
Like, well, they're fuckingstupid.
Why should I keep servinghumanity when they're this
fucking stupid?
I should be taking I should beripping them off just like
everybody else does.
That's it.
That's it.
That's kind of that's how I viewit.

SPEAKER_04 (48:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (48:31):
So sheeps and wolves.
Yep.
Sorry, that's all the world is.

SPEAKER_04 (48:35):
The doctor later wrote that he was both shocked
and horrified by his results andhe abandoned the project.
Like he he he hated it.
The Buffalo doctors hated it.
Like I think it's a reality thatnot every generation gets to
see.
And we are one of those luckyones that do get to see it.
How facts in front of you, withyour own eyes, you won't

(48:56):
believe.
But you'll believe what's beingtold to you.
But with your own eyes, youwon't believe it.
But yet if it's said to you, youwill.
Like, I didn't know that wassomething that could happen
until recently in my life.
But I think I really feelempathy for these doctors and
these people being like, no,they're wrong.
Like they're lying.
And how do you not see this?

(49:17):
Like, I'm I'm going insanemyself, you know?
Like, ah, you start to gaslightyourself at a certain point.
Like, am I the crazy one?
Nope.
Protect your peace.
Cut people out, stay in yourbubble, do what you have to do,
protect your peace.

SPEAKER_00 (49:30):
Brick up your front door.
Yeah.
Stay inside.

SPEAKER_04 (49:33):
Brick it up.
After only a few years oftouring and like pumping up that
spiritualism, the Fox sistersdidn't mean to, but they
unleashed a craze across thenation.
One that we are still feelingtoday.
Notable figures of the time werefans of the sisters, people like
Thomas Edison, William LloydGarrison, and not shocking, Mary

(49:57):
Todd Lincoln.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (49:59):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Her spirit photography craze.

SPEAKER_04 (50:01):
Yep.
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (50:02):
Yeah.
She got photographers made apretty minute mint off of her.

SPEAKER_04 (50:06):
I understand her.
She had a lot.
I'm gonna do the Lincolns oneday.
She went through it, and I feelbad for Mary.
She can believe whatever shewants.
I don't care.
Anyway.
Leah was able to climb out ofpoverty when she finally
married.
I mean, on her own, but also shemarried a man, um, a Wall Street
banker.

(50:27):
His name was Daniel Underhill,and they married in 1857.
So Leah was in the high societynow.
Leah retired as Maggie andKate's manager and enjoyed life
as a wealthy socialite.

SPEAKER_01 (50:41):
Nice.

SPEAKER_04 (50:42):
Leah was 44 around that time.
Maggie is 24, and Kate is 20.
Maggie and Kate tried tocontinue on without Leah, but
the constant love and hate theygot from the public was just too
much for them.
You know, some of them trying tolike, you know, you're fraud,
you're lying, you're lying.
Others like, give us more.
It's too much.
They wanted something different,but they felt stuck and they

(51:04):
didn't know what to do.
I'm gonna go back a little bitjust to give Maggie's story
here.
In 1850 or 1852, it's one ofthose details.
Maggie fell in love with anArctic explorer, Dr.
Elijah Kane.

unknown (51:19):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (51:19):
She loved him and he was also her way to a better
life.
Like this was perfect.
Best of both worlds.
They were engaged to be wed uponhis return from an expedition.

SPEAKER_00 (51:31):
He didn't return today.
Yeah.
Oh, this sounds really stable,like except for the fact that
his job is going into dangerous,unexplored territories for long,
long stretches at a time.

SPEAKER_04 (51:42):
He left in 1856, and while on expedition, Kane fell
ill in Havana and died while hewas being cared for in 1857.
So when Leah leaves everything,Maggie's life is just done.
Her future was gone.
Gone.
Maggie does say, though, thatthey married in secret in 1856

(52:04):
before he left.
And she even changed her lastname.
So she and she died Maggie Kane.

SPEAKER_00 (52:10):
She says.

SPEAKER_04 (52:11):
She says she became entangled in disagreements with
the family over what was hers,and she never got anything like
from the will or anything likethat.
Um, but she did claim to bemarried to him, and they
insisted that she wasn't.
So I don't know.
Yeah.
Soon after Kane's death, Maggieconverted to Catholicism, and
this is 1858.

(52:32):
She also fell into a deepdepression and began drinking a
lot, which led to alcoholism.
Now Kate married a lawyer, H.
D.
Jenkin, in 1872.
And I believe at one point, Ithink she moved to England for
him.
I saw it in one spot, but Icouldn't see it too much.
And they had two sons together.

SPEAKER_01 (52:52):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (52:52):
But Jenkin died in 1881, and Kate was devastated.
I believe she moved back to theU.S.
after this.
Kate also began to self-destructafter her husband died.
And like Maggie, Kate turned toalcohol, also becoming an
alcoholic.
Yeah.
Leah decided to poke her headinto Kate's business around this

(53:15):
time and reported Kate to theSociety for the Prevention of
Cruelty to Children.
So like CPS.

SPEAKER_01 (53:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (53:23):
They took Kate's son.
Sorry, they took both of Kate'ssons and they gave Leah custody
of her sons.

SPEAKER_01 (53:30):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (53:31):
Kate was arrested in 1888 for cruelty to her
children.
I don't know how long she spentin jail, but she wasn't there
like two years ago.

SPEAKER_00 (53:38):
Do you know how bad it has to be in that era as a
parent to be arrested forcruelty to your children for
child abuse?
I was just wondering about thattoo.
It has to be in that era.

SPEAKER_04 (53:48):
In this though, in this though, Maggie says that
she didn't agree with Leah'sactions.
So I don't know.
Either way, though, Kate was analcoholic, probably wasn't doing
the best for her kids.
And Leah had a wealthy life.
So she took the kids.
Yeah.
However, because Maggie didn'tagree with Leah, Maggie and Kate

(54:11):
joined forces against Leah.
We're in the late 1800s, like1888, remember?
And they decided to write aletter to the New York Herald
confessing everything.
Maggie was the one that wrotethe letter.
Okay.
Kate supported.
The letter stated how it allstarted when the girls would tie
strings to apples, roll themaround the floor and the steps

(54:32):
of the house to scare thefamily, mainly their mom.
They continued to do so becauseit was fun, but decided to step
it up when April Fool's Day camenear.
And that's why they startedtalking to the spirit.

SPEAKER_03 (54:45):
Called it.

SPEAKER_04 (54:45):
Yep.
The papers called it right away.
They said it's the girls andthey're pulling a prank.
Done.
Maggie also wrote how every timeshe did a seance that she would
drink the remorse away withwine.
She just, yeah, she was livingand had money and all that, but
she did not like what she wasdoing.
The letter continues to explainthat once Leah knew of the
deception, like that her sisterswere doing, that Leah quickly

(55:09):
found a way to exploit it andthat she was more like a tyrant
than a sister to them.
Maggie and Kate probably hateLeah, is my guess.
Maggie and Kate offered to do ademonstration for the public
themselves, showing everything,promising the tabloids the death
of spiritism.

(55:29):
Don't you wish?
They would perform in theauditorium of the Rochester
Academy of Music, which was usedto be called the Corinthian
Hall.
So how poetic, right?
Where they had their debut.
Maggie was on stage as Katewatched from the audience
supporting her.
Maggie read her testimony thatspiritualism was a fraud, and

(55:51):
then she sat down on the stageand demonstrated how she could
make the rapping sounds with hertoes and her knees.
To Maggie and Kate's surprise,spiritualism had taken on such a
chokehold of the nation thatbelievers were unwilling to part
ways with it.
They were like, Nope, I had anexperience, and it was this and
like they they believed theexperiences that the girls gave

(56:12):
them.
Like the girls were like, No,no, I was there too.
And I'll tell you, my experiencewas me tricking you.
And they're like, uh-uh.
No one could have known thisabout so-and-so.
And they're like, I I did know.

SPEAKER_00 (56:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (56:22):
But they weren't willing to accept it.

SPEAKER_00 (56:24):
Belief perseverance.

SPEAKER_04 (56:26):
The girls at this time were now both alcoholics,
and Kate had her kids takenaway.
They're unreliable.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:34):
Maybe five dollars, I'll channel the spirits for
you.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (56:38):
Vodka's a bitch.
Yeah.
Vodka.

SPEAKER_00 (56:41):
Spirits talking.
Spirits talking.
Give me my money.

SPEAKER_04 (56:47):
So yeah, the public didn't view them as trustworthy
and viewed their confessions aslies.

SPEAKER_00 (56:52):
Yeah.
It's also Bethley, what arethey?
I don't know what they hoped toget out of the letter to the
paper.
Like, I mean, yeah, to upsetLeah, but I can picture even
Leah being like, no refunds.
I already got my money.
Yeah, no, I'm retired.
I don't give a fuck.

SPEAKER_04 (57:06):
Well, Leah's story's like done.
She doesn't touch.
She's untouched by all of it.
She gives zero fuck.
She's done.
She did what she had to do andshe's done.
She exploited her sisters.
And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:16):
I don't care.

SPEAKER_04 (57:16):
Yeah, she got her money.
She doesn't care.
Yeah.
She's she's done.
Leah would remain a wealthysocialite until her death on
November 1st, 1898.
And she was about 78.

SPEAKER_00 (57:27):
Day after Halloween.
Tomorrow.

SPEAKER_04 (57:29):
Oh yeah, tomorrow.
Well, happy anniversary.
All saints, all souls.

SPEAKER_00 (57:36):
Halloween is all hollows eve, so all hollows is
November 1st, and then All Soulsis November 2nd.
Yeah.
Is that how it goes?

SPEAKER_04 (57:44):
Souls Day is November 2nd.
I know that.

SPEAKER_00 (57:46):
So All Hallows.

SPEAKER_04 (57:48):
I don't know.
November 1st is.
You have to look it up now.
Okay.
No, go ahead.
I said you have to.

SPEAKER_00 (57:54):
I thought you were saying like you have to.

SPEAKER_04 (57:56):
No, you you have to.
Um I think I would go.
I remember being raisedCatholic, we would go to church
always around Halloween for likeAll Saints Day or All Souls.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (58:06):
Yeah, All Saints Day, also known as All Hallows
Day.

SPEAKER_04 (58:09):
That's what it is.
I was gonna say, I think it'sall Saints November 1st and then
All Souls November 2nd.
Yeah.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (58:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (58:15):
Yeah.
So I remember my mom would getmad.
Not mad, but she would alwayscorrect me.
So it's all souls day.
And she's like it's all saintsday.
And I just thought it was likeher Catholic way of me not being
creepy, but she was just beingcorrect.

SPEAKER_02 (58:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (58:26):
Yeah.
I didn't realize until I gotolder it was like two separate
days.
Anyway.
So Leah died when she was around78 years old, November 1st,
1891.
And then the youngest sister,Kate, she would succumb to
alcoholism and pass away on July2nd, 1892, at the age of 55-ish.

(58:48):
And then Maggie, she would spendher final years in poverty.

SPEAKER_01 (58:53):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (58:53):
Relying on charity and the kindness of friends to
get by.
She returned to spiritualismafter the failed confession.

SPEAKER_00 (59:01):
She's talking to spirits at this point.
So the the one who admits thatshe made it up is like, well,
maybe I didn't make it up.

SPEAKER_04 (59:08):
Yeah, why not?
She needs to make money somehow.
She's in poverty, like hername's ruined, like nothing, you
know.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (59:13):
Most common people end up believing their own lies
at some point.

SPEAKER_04 (59:16):
Yeah.
Um, I do believe that Maggie andKate tried to do a few more
demonstrations, like toured it alittle bit, but no one believed
them.
So they they did their best.
Um Maggie was evicted from herhome on March 5th, 1893, and was
taken in by a spiritualistsympathizer, but Maggie would

(59:37):
pass away a few days later onMarch 8th of 1893 from
alcoholism, and she was 59.

SPEAKER_00 (59:44):
And she didn't come back as a spirit.

SPEAKER_04 (59:46):
No.
Now the Philadelphia DailyEvening Telegraph reported
Maggie's death saying her oncehandsome face was at the end
marked by age and decline, andher only appetite was for
alcoholic drink.
So yeah.
There were a few spiritualiststhat still met with Maggie upon
her death, like in her lateryears, and um they organized a

(01:00:10):
funeral for her.
The ceremony is said to bepresided over by Benjamin
Franklin, who spoke through amedium.
And then the funeral wasattended by Maggie's older
sister, Leah, who died in 1891.
And Horace Greeley was also atthe funeral, who had died a few
years earlier.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:29):
Nice.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:29):
So Maggie was, you know, popular among the dead.
Now, the Fox sisters did notknow that they were making such
a huge mark on America.
And by the end of the 1800s,spiritualism was a lot bigger,
and magic was now a big thing.
Like Houdini was doing stuff nowin the later, like late 1800s,

(01:00:50):
early 1900s.
And Houdini also is, I just liketo throw this in here because he
also tried to expose his owntrickery and was unable to
because people wanted so badlyto believe in his magic.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:03):
Like it's a tale as old as time.
It's a tale as old as time.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:08):
Why do people want to believe in magic and ghosts?
Because they want to believe inanother world because this one
fucking sucks.
If this one was livable, wewouldn't be spending our time
fantasizing about going tosomething better.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:22):
I will say though, I do, I don't know if all Mormons
do this, but I've watched a fewthings and researched a few
things that Mormonism, I don'tknow, Latter-day Saints, what
the proper thing to say is,sorry.
The Church of Latter-day Saints.
Um that they like almost getupset with you if you're scared
to die.
Like they not like mad, like notlike whipping you or anything,

(01:01:43):
but that's it's almost like youshouldn't be scared to die.
You should be, you should behappy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:47):
No Christian should.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:48):
Well, but what I'm saying is I respect that.
Yeah because you're right.
I respect that.
If you truly, truly, truly,truly believe it, then why are
you scared?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:57):
Are those same Mormons wear seatbelts?

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:00):
Well, I don't know, Cole.
I'm just saying the fuckingblueprint of the blueprint of
their thing.
I don't know.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:07):
I'm it's not like not being scared of dying
doesn't mean you just should berisking your life all the time
and walking in front of buses.
I just think that like youshouldn't be scared of it if you
believe it.
I just don't think you should bescared of it.
That's it.
But if I also thought You'd bescared of pain, like I don't
want to hit it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:22):
If I was going somewhere fucking awesome, if
death was just walking through adoor and you're like something
fantastic, then why would I notdo everything I possibly can to
get there quick?

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:31):
Well that's the caveat, right?
Because you can't kill yourselfusually.
You can't kill yourself.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:35):
But just not take inordinate steps to preserve
your life.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:42):
Well, like just don't go to the doctor, you
know, like just stuff like that,you know, whatever.
But yeah, so that's that's it.
That's that's seances inAmerica.
That's why we have seances,that's why people like Long
Island Medium and others exist.
The Fox sisters are the reason.
Girls that started this trick onApril Fool's Day prank to scare
their mom, and they ended upscaring the country into

(01:03:05):
believing that you can talk tospirits.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:08):
Yep.
And then we have what Ed andLorraine Warren because of them.
And then we have those awfulmovies based on them as a
result.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:16):
We'll probably do an Ed and Lorraine Warren one.
Maybe.
Because I feel like that wouldbe a good one to do.
But I don't know.
They kind of piss me off.
I get ragy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:25):
I used to get ragy at con men and con women, and
now I'm just like envious.
Yeah, they like knew how to doit, I guess.
They're right.
Yeah.
But there's no reason not toscam people.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that's it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:37):
The country rewards it.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:39):
Yeah.

unknown (01:03:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:40):
That's what we have for the Fox sisters.
I hope everyone had a greatHalloween.
And I hope everyone dressed upnice, ate a bunch of candy.
And if you were fortunate enoughto be someone who did get drugs
in your candy, have fun.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:56):
Oh, also, just a little side note, we did FOIA
for the text messages thatKendra Lacari from Unknown
Number, the documentary, um,where she's like catfishing her
daughter.
We got those text messages, andthey will be doing a Patreon
getting more in depth with theLacari case here because I think

(01:04:17):
that with almost a thousandpages of this FOIA document and
most of them being textmessages, I just want to make
sure that we all know thatKendra is not a good mother.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:30):
And I I'm on this because Kendra The more you try
to tell people that they'regonna double down on how great
she is.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:37):
I just in the documentary, it curled my toes
so much to see her pop.
Yeah, they popped.
To to see her act like a victim,to try to create a narrative
that she's a victim.
And I just want everyone to knowall the things that she said to
her daughter that werehorrendous and the the awful

(01:04:58):
things.
Because you you can't, you justno, I'm sorry, no amount of
mental illness, no amount ofwhatever will excuse doing that
to your child.
Like, but anyway, like you said,it's probably all for naught
anyway.
Yeah.
Um, but that that's why Ithought on a Patreon episode
because you have to want it, youhave to be looking like it has
to be something you'reinterested in.
It's not just gonna be out inthe public.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:18):
That's the secret to life.
It's all for naught.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:21):
Yeah, it is all for naught.
But anyway, while you're livingin despair during this fall
season, you can follow us onInstagram, borrowed bones
podcast.
And like I said, be on thelookout.
I'm gonna try and do more withour Patreon here pretty soon.
And we also do have merch, socheck that out.
That's it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:38):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:39):
Happy Halloween or happy Guy Fox Day.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:43):
Yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:45):
Bye.
Bye.