The Ngogo Chimpanzees

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hello.

Speaker 1 (00:02):
I'm Sarah.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
And I'm Cole.

Speaker 1 (00:04):
And you're listening to Borrowed Bones, a podcast
about fucked up, interesting andtoxic families.
This one is different.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
I don't know For the first time.
I don't know anything aboutwhat we're talking about.
I usually know, like the topicat least, Even if I'm not
familiar with it, she tells mehey we're doing it about this.
Okay, she deliberately did nottell me anything when she was
working on it.
I wasn't allowed in the room,so I'm coming in blind.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Right.
However, I do know that youknow about this topic.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
You just don't know.
I'm doing it today.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Okay Now, color me intrigued.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
This is not one of the true crimey ones.
It's not gnarly or bad, it'smore of interesting side yet
again.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
More in the twining vein, kind of it's a little bit
sadder.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
There's more drama and there's death and everything
in this still, but it's notlike a true crime.
Okay, it's not even people okaywe are starting in the summer
of 1993.
We have scientist researcherdavid watts entering the ugandan
forest.
Oh, it's going to be aboutchimpanzees, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yes, it is, ah okay, our first non-human episode, but
still about family.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
All right, tell me about this chimp troop in Uganda
.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yes, let's get into it.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Let's do it.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Starting in the early 1990s, there have been rumors
of an advanced society takingcontrol of the forest, a society
of chimpanzees okay andresearcher scientist david watts
.
He heard of this advancedcommunity of chimps and he
wanted to go see it for himself.
He went to the nagogorainforest that resides within

(02:02):
the kabali national park inuganda so isolated protected.
yes, all right.
David watts, he didn't knowwhat to expect when going into
this and he says he would end upwitnessing the most complex and
brutal chimpanzee society everdiscovered.

(02:23):
Nice, yes, now I watchedmultiple documentaries, the
YouTube one.
The title is Rise of theWarrior Apes.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Okay, yeah, I have not seen that one.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
I didn't think so.
I wasn't sure we should watchit.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
I'll watch it again, of course, all right, yeah, and
then Chimp Empire.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
So those are the two main documentaries that I'm
going off of, and then ChimpEmpire.
So those are the two maindocumentaries that I'm going off
of, and then Internet researchafter that.
Yeah, the documentary onYouTube, rise of the Warrior
Apes, was filmed over the courseof 23 years Long time.
There were multiple researchers.
David Watts and John Mataniwere the main ones to start it

(03:03):
all off, but other people comein, you know assistants yeah,
for 23 years Caretaker.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, yeah, like photographers film everything.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yeah, matani said it took about four to five years to
get the chimps used to humansand like seeing them, they would
always just run away as soon asthey saw them.
So Matani and Watts were likewell, okay, cool.
But they stuck to it.
And so august of 1996 a biggroup of chimps came down near

(03:34):
watts and matani kind of rusheddown toward them and ran away
like they normally do, like oh,we're playing, we see you.
Okay, we're gonna run away now.
But one individual did not runaway this time and his name is
Hare H-A-R-E.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Hare.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Okay, hare just went off in his own direction.
He didn't really run away.
He was walking at a quick pace,but not like running away.
He was just being himself.
Mitanni followed him and thenHare stopped and just sat and
hung out, and that was it.
It just showed Mitanni followedhim and then Hare stopped and
just sat and hung out, and thatwas it.
It just showed Mitanni thatHare wasn't scared of him.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, he's comfortable around him.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
This moved Mitanni to tears, because years of doing
this and finally one of them isshowing no fear, okay, we're
allowed to be around them now.
Soon after the domino effect,other chimps were like oh okay,
this is fine.
So that's how these scientistsand researchers are able to be
this close to them.
They never do interact withthese chimps, they don't do

(04:34):
anything they just strictlyobserve strictly observe.
once the chimps allowed theresearchers to really get near
them and see them, theresearchers were like there's a
lot of chimps.
There's way more than werealized At the time.
They're thinking there wasprobably over 140 chimps in that

(04:56):
group In one troop.
This is the largest knownchimpanzee community anywhere.
Most live in about a 40 to 50member community or troop From
day one.
Once they were able to seeeverything, there was a clear
alpha male.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yes, there tends to be.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
And his name was Mweya Mweya M-W-E-Y-A.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Gotcha Mweya.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
And the way they described him in this
documentary was really cool.
He would have a swagger andjust a general demeanor about
him.
You just knew that he was incontrol, and they said that he
had an interesting combo ofbeing strong and powerful, but
also smart and good at buildingsocial bonds.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, you don't get to be the alpha male without
having diplomacy.
You can't rule just with bruteforce, or your reign will not be
long.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, there's a few stories of alphas.
We'll go through here and wewill see that.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Always vying to be king of the hill.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, but the researchers, they were concerned
Like how long can one malecontrol this large?

Speaker 2 (06:07):
of a group.
Yeah, you're going to havedissenters.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
There's another male, bartok.
He is second in line.
Okay, he has a very strong bondwith Moea, like Moea is kind of
recruiting him and setting himup to take over for him when
it's done, he's the heirapparent.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yes, okay, so they have heir apparent.
Yes, okay.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
So they have an allyship.
It's very political the way allthis moves.
They're very much doing this onpurpose.
It's not just by happenstanceLike this is on purpose.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
There's a whole court of intrigue with chimpanzee
politics.
It's in politicking, yeah,anyway, keep going.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Sorry, yeah, I love how I'm like telling you the
story.
You're on the edge of your seat.
Bartok was a fair amountyounger than Moeah, so again,
perfect to be sort of groomedfor the next in line.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Do we know and you might not know the answer to
this Are they father and son, ordo they not even know?
They probably don't know ifthey didn't see him.
Yeah, I don't know.
They probably don't know ifthey didn't see him.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, I'm not sure.
Okay, However, there wasanother chimp who had his eye on
the prize of being alpha, andhis name is Lofty.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Oh, he's got lofty ambitions.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yes, nice Yep.
And Lofty was a bit of a bully.
He was more of the aggressor hewas in great physical condition
.
He was a bigger ape, um, so hewas able to use that, but he
wasn't politically savvy.
He didn't really make thosesocial bonds he just wanted the
power he worked his way up thehierarchy ladder very quickly.

(07:39):
Because of how aggressive hewas, everyone was like fuck,
fine go fine, whatever.
So that's this setup.
We have lofty, who wants toclimb up the ladder, as well as
bartok and hair.
Have it all situated right nowit's like the roman republic yep
, now the nogogo chimps have aterritory at this time of about

(08:05):
28 square kilometers, okay, andchimps are very territorial.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
And they know their territory well.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
They are very warlike and they have borders between
their cultures and troops.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
Mm-hmm, and they also know what's going on in the
territories right next to them,like their neighbors Mm-hmm.
In the YouTube documentary theyrefer to the neighbors as the
others, or neighbors Mm-hmm.
So when I say neighbors, it'snot friendly.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, and these different troops are whole
different cultures, essentially.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
They have their own ways of interacting with each
other, their own hierarchies,their own like it's.
It's weird.
It's just as diverse asdifferent human cultures.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
It's yeah Now.
Scientist Matani, he saw Hare,mueya, bartok and some other
chimps acting strange.
He didn't really know what wasup with them, but he saw them
all move in a single filefashion into the forest.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
Single file Okay yeah , that's what they do when they
patrol yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
They all get into like a formation.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
I mean not perfect single file, but it's clear that
they're one behind the other.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, and they fell silent.
And then Mitanni figures outthat they were looking for the
others, the strangers, theneighbors.
And Matani doesn't really knowwhat happened.
He was like all of a suddenthey just went.
There was some type ofnonverbal communication that he
missed, he didn't see.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, he's not picking up on the cues.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Now, as the chimps reached the edge of their
territory, they began kind ofgibbering like a little excited.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, just getting all Yep, yeah, rocking side to
side, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Kind of like anxious, looking, yeah, excited, but
like keeping quiet though theyweren't hooting and hollering.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
And then, as they were lined up, they all turned
shoulder to shoulder to face out.
So they're on their border,facing out now yeah, facing into
enemy territory.
And it kind of looks likethey're an army front like lined
up.
And they're just looking intothe other territory and they
begin to listen and if they heara lot of other voices, voices,

(10:26):
they're not going to do anythingbecause, oh, we're outnumbered,
it's too risky, we can't doanything.
But if they're not outnumbered,maybe they'll try to expand
their territory, maybe they'llgo in, like so they have to kind
of assess and figure out whatit is.
Yeah, at this moment they doturn away because they hear that
they're outnumbered they don'teven try anything.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Not worth it.
It's a reconnaissance mission.
Let's gather some data, gathersome info.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, yes, now, all of this.
I don't think this was as theywere coming back, because
there's so many years that spanthis one documentary, so it cuts
to another moment.
And still soon, like aroundthis this time, but not too far
the other researcher, scientistwatts.

(11:11):
He saw the chimps go on a huntand they were hunting little red
colobus monkeys okay, yeah, upin the trees yeah yeah it's
terrifying to watch yes chimpshave an organized hunt, because
they'll hunt, yeah, monkeys orbush pigs for meat and yeah

(11:33):
yeah, it's wild to see footageof that yeah, it was awful and
there's a lot of it.
So if you watch this youtubedocumentary, just know that they
don't cover anything okay um,you see it, you see them killing
these little monkeys.
You see them?
Yeah, you see it.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
I'm just gonna show it, they show it, all it's there
yeah, it was a little shockingfor me honestly.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
I was like okay, um, but yes you, you see the chimps
chase the monkeys up the treesand they kind of corner them on
the branches, like there'll bechimps standing along the ground
waiting for any to fall.
There'll be chimps on othertrees, kind of coordinated
attack it's very and you see,chimps like pointing yeah,
directing, giving orders,they're not just it's terrifying
, blindly rushing in and justyou pulling the china shop.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
like you might think, it is a coordinated attack.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
And that's what these researchers discovered and the
way they talked about it in thedocumentary.
They were like shell shocked.
They did not like watching itand observing it at all.
Once the chimps did get a holdof a monkey, they all took an

(12:49):
arm or a leg and just began topull and they quartered this
monkey and then the chimps wouldhand out the meat to others,
including the entire head thatwas ripped off.
Yeah, you see that yeah whenthey pass out meat.
That's a very political allybonding moment it's a very
hierarchical, hierarchical thankyou.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
I'm not even trying to say that that's awful, yeah
hierarchical yeah, now I don't.
I don't know if I can say itagain now, because now I've got
your version in my head,hierarchical okay, perfect, yeah
, um, who gets the the best cuts?
Who gets the most?
Yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
If you get any at all , yeah, yeah all of it's a
statement, so they break itapart and they share it with
their close friends, allies,anyone who they think might be
able to help them socially,politically, and bartok was
known to be very selective whensharing meat.
For example, bartok gave Hare alarge piece of monkey and then

(13:48):
later on, hare helped Bartok outwith something else, like the
scientists, saw this back andforth behavior.
Yeah, and Bartok?
He was dominant without usingbrute force, unlike Lofty.
Lofty just couldn't seem to beas politically and socially
savvy as Bartok.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Bartok's got charisma More likable, more respected.
Yeah, throws weight around.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
We're jumping now to early 1999.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
All right.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
Things began to shift politically.
Moeah was still the alpha andBartok was his number two.
Still, yeah.
And Lofty wanted to make a bidat it at this point Now.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
is he going to try to take down number one, or is he
going to try to take down numbertwo?

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Right, let's see.
The researchers and scientistsdidn't really see exactly what
happened, because most of thistussle happened in, like the
thick vegetation.
You can kind of hear it, butthey didn't really see what was
going on.
But there was a fight betweenbartok and lofty.
Okay, they were fighting, andwhen bartok emerged it was clear

(15:01):
that his self-confidence wasshattered.
Oh so lofty went after numbertwo okay, and he won, so he
supplanted.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
What does, what does my way have to say about this?
I mean, he's still the alpha,doesn't he get to well?

Speaker 1 (15:15):
bartok was now number three in line and lofty moved
up to the number two spot.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Lofty then began to challenge moeah moeah is, if I
recall correctly, he's gettingup there in age too, because
yeah, he's already essentiallygrooming on his air.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
Anyway, I don't know exactly the age I kind of
honestly lost track of ages.
There's a lot but he's up thereover the course of the next
several months, lofty justconsistently bullies and pokes
at moe, just little by little bylittle, until eventually moe
just starts to give in and isjust being torn down.
And then all of a sudden theresearchers noticed moe doing a

(15:57):
soft pant, grunt to lofty like aokay, kind of, kind of like a
dog, yeah but it's a sign ofsubmissiveness that chimps do oh
kind of yeah, like I'm beingsubmissive.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah, you're in charge, you're the boss okay,
and that's.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
That's when the researchers knew that Mueo was
no longer the alpha and that,lofty, the troop has a new
leader yeah, I don't know whathappened, but I think it was
just a slow burn and Lofty waslike just ugh, a million paper
cuts.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
You're old, old man.
Yeah, get out.
You're old, he's new blood.
Get out, you're old, you can'tlead the tribe, you're too old.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
However.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Lofty was never secure in his position as alpha.
It doesn't seem like he wouldbe.
I mean, if you take it that way, you're never gonna, if you
earn it through force or take itby force rather than earning it
the right way.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
You're not going to be secure in your reign.
He was not.
He would run and beat everyoneup as he ran by doing his like
displays and all that, and hejust didn't care.
Everyone had to kind of scatterabout, but he would do it so
much yeah he's a prick yeah, henever could build a network.
He could never do anything, notthe way that bartok could could
have if he had been, but bartokwasn't the leader oh, but

(17:16):
bartok was still aroundyeah he's sizing up the
situation oh, he's still okay,he's like wait a minute.
Lofty is kind of being anasshole.
No one really seems to like him.
No one really likes him.
And Bartok and Moe are still inthe two and three spots.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
They're still up in the hierarchy.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Bartok saw how Lofty won against Moe, made the bid
and did it, so Bartok was like Ican do that.
I can do that to Lofty, butBartok is number three and Moe
is number two.
So Bartok has to beat Moe firstin order to go for.
Lofty.
But Bartok easily beat Moe Moekind of allowed it?

Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, because they used to be allies.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yes, and so Bartok moved into number two, moe is
now at number three, and theyremain allies.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Okay, so this is just a.
This is just a.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yes, yeah, they're still good, they're tight, okay,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Their alliance runs deep.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
We're going to take this prick down.
They're doing it.
Yeah, I know, isn't it so likehuman-like?
It's so crazy, it's like theRoman crassus and they're like
they're allies.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Until they're not, then they go to war with each
other.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
Come at the king you best not miss oh yeah, I wish
more people knew what that wasfrom oh, people know the wire
now oh, that's true.
Just coming back, omar yeah,anyway anyway, bartok was making
moves.
He wasn't the biggest male sohe knew he needed some strong

(18:46):
people, a strong network, if hewas going to get Lofty out of
that alpha role.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Bartok would groom other males very selectively
which is another social bond,Literally grooming them like
picking parasites off their.
Yeah, Yep, go through, takeparasites, fleas, ticks,
everything.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
That's a very ritual.
Yeah, yeah, Yep, go through,take parasites fleas, ticks,
everything.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
That's a very ritual.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
That's a as you've seen, you know apes and chimps
and apes yeah, do all this Ifyou've watched any type of Nat
Geo or anything.
Grooming is a thing they do,that they have to to stay
healthy and alive.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
But also who does it.
It's very subtle.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Political.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, subtle political.
Yeah, who who picks who's if?
If, after you do someone, dothey return the favor or do they
not?
That's a big?

Speaker 1 (19:30):
yeah, are you only allowed to groom and you're
never the one groomed yourselflike that's a big one.
Yeah, so this is how they buildtheir bonds.
And bartok had mawaya hair andsome other male chimps in his
alliance, so so the researchersnoticed that Bartok would groom
and be groomed by like a groupof males.
They were all like a littlegroup.

(19:51):
One day Bartok, Moea and twoother males jumped on Lofty and
beat him up pretty badly Didn'tkill him, yeah, but they let him
know.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
And Bartok was now the alpha yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Your reign is done, son.
You're done, yep.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
So Lofty was the alpha for one and a half years.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Okay, yeah, mm-hmm, I don't know.
That doesn't seem like that'dbe long.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
No.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
I mean, we know that Moe was there, for I mean at
least when we started in 93until 99.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, yeah, if you're good, you can stay there for a
while.
But he was there for less thantwo years.
Bartok's reign was a long andnice one.
The other males liked him there.
Once he was in position, hereally didn't act like it.
He allowed certain roles to beplayed.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
He delegated.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah, he was just laid back and allowed everyone
to do what they're what theywere doing yeah, and he led them
well yeah, not all male chimpswere really looking to be alphas
yeah, there's not it's not ineveryone's personality.
Yeah, they don't want such asociety.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
That, yeah, you can't .
They're not solo animals,they're.
They're a social one.
So you can't have every, everymember trying to be in charge.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
They just yeah, some of them don't care to like.
For example, there's one malechimp named ellington.
He was very respected.
He probably could have been analpha had he wanted to, but he
didn't care to go for it he.
The researchers said that hewould do the little pant grunt
to the alphas in a way that waskind of just quick and like

(21:30):
there I did it.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
We're good.
Okay, like it was like.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, and it was like okay for him to do that.
It was very much like.
We all know that.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
I'm just on my own lead.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
I don't need him to say he's submissive to me,
because you just know he's notgoing to challenge me, but very
well respected though.
They also noticed that one timethere were about 20 chimps all
grooming and eating, sitting,relaxing, just having a nice day
, and then Ellington gets up andhe starts walking in a certain
direction, and then all of thechimps get up and they just

(22:02):
followed him in like a beelineto the edge of the territory.
Okay, no words no noises,nothing, no words.
You know, yeah, honestly, noobvious.
These chimps are people to me.
Now I say I don't say female,male, I'm saying man, woman,
child, like I'm not using theproper, like animal terms
anymore because it's it'smessing with my head seriously.
But ellington played a key rolein patrolling and deciding when

(22:27):
it was time to get moving.
That's what his role was.
So if he said it's time to look, we have to look.
The researchers gave him anickname of the commander.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Okay, so like the military head.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, if he's noticing, we should follow him.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah, yeah, he's reliable.
Yeah, all right.
So again we kind of skippedtime a little bit through these
documentaries.
There are some things that Ijust weren't seeing.
Or again jumping time, we'regoing to go up to the first
fatal chimpanzee attack.
Now, this is not within thesame Nagogo community, it's from

(23:04):
between, like strangers.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
Oh, okay, so it's like a war, like a conflict Kind
of yeah, like a conflict, not awar.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Okay, there is a field assistant that helps the
researchers and his name isGodfrey.
Okay, and he saw this murder.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
It's how he calls.
He says murder oh yeah, youusually use that word with
animal on animal.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
Exactly that's how he said it, because it's not a
homicide, because hummus isliterally a human.
Godfrey was very upset by this,honestly, and I cried watching
him tell the story.
I was like, oh my God.
So the story goes thatEllington led a patrol and they
went off to the northeast intochimpanzee territory.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Other.
Okay, mm-hmm, yeah, okay, sothey're intruding a little bit.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yes, you know expanding, doing what they do.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
That's risky.
They find a male chimpanzee, astranger, and they surround him
and there's a brief standoff andthen Ellington launched an
attack on him and they caughthim wow they began biting him,
biting the ears, biting off thetesticles and killing him, and

(24:14):
godfrey's, yeah, okay godfrey'sunsure why nothing came of it
after that and godfrey saw itand I don't think he's ever seen
chimpanzees do that before.
I mean it was known by the 90sthat they're.
They're awful and can do thatyeah but I don't know if he's
ever seen that.
I don't know the way he toldthe story was very like yeah,

(24:35):
it'd be.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
I yeah, it'd be traumatizing yeah plus it'd be
loud do all the noises andscreaming and yeah, yeah
vocalizations they're making yes, so that happened and oh, I
also.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
Just I forgot to point this out and I didn't
really know where to fit it in,but this does become relevant
relationships between, likewe've been mentioning, chimps
can be stronger with others.
Hair and ellington were veryclose.
Okay, I forgot to mention thatwhen I, hare and Ellington were
very close, I forgot to mentionthat when I was talking about
Ellington, and they're like bestfriends, always together.

(25:10):
It's normal for them to stayaway from the group like a day
or two at a time, just to hangout.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
Do their thing.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah, I just wanted to mention that that does come
back.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Now, another thing researchers noticed within the
Nagogo community was that manyof the chimps have whites to
their eyes, the way humans do.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Okay, it's called the sclera, yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
Okay, and we do know that some chimps have that,
naturally.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Most of them do not.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Most of them are just like the bigger black.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
However, there's a larger percentage of the
white-eyed chimps in Nagogo.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Okay, versus, like other places, genetic, yeah,
trait.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
And the researchers found that interesting.
Yeah, nonverbal communicationis a lot easier when you have
white in your eyes.
And it's easier to do thingsand coordinate without exposing
where you are.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
So maybe this community got so big because
they're able to communicatebetter with each other.
Okay, we don't know, that'scompletely just talking the
theory of how I mean a geneticfluke happens.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
Right.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Proves to be beneficial.
It gets handed down more andmore, and that's how it works.
You need to leg up over yourcompetitors and boom.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yep.
Now, throughout these years ofresearching, the community is
still getting larger.
It has about 170 chimps at thistime.
Yes, there's a lot of males.
Many of them are competing tobe alpha, even though not all of
them.
But when you have a large group, you're going to have a fair
amount that are going for it.

(26:49):
It's now 2002.
Okay, and there's a young malechimp named
Grappelli-r-a-p-e-l-l-i.
Okay, grappelli, he's about 20years old, I think he's like 20,
21, and he begins making hismoves to get up that social
ladder.
He's behaving aggressively,beating up mothers and kids,
other chimps smaller than him,and he was just creating chaos
in general.
Now pincher is a chimp and sois brownface, another chimp.

(27:10):
I didn't make these names noyeah, but yes, we have pincher
and brownface chimps.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
They are grappelli's friends I like how the names are
so diverse.
There's like english,traditional african names
italian.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
I don't know.
I think it's just whoever findsit, maybe, I don't know.
So yes, pinscher and Brownfaceare friends with Grappelli, but
Grappelli had just moved abovePinscher in the hierarchy, so
there was some shiftinghappening.
In October of 2002, one of theresearchers was following a

(27:47):
group of eight males.
They were all grooming eachother when they heard a chimp
scream.
The group had begun attackingone of their own.
Grappelli was being attackedokay they were beating him,
pounding on him, biting him hairwas present at the attack, but
he didn't participate.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Okay, he was just there Just watching.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
He didn't seem happy.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Okay, he was watching , but he seemed upset.
Yeah, he couldn't do anything,though, but yeah, you're
outnumbered.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, they were all piling on Grappelli and they
were.
You know, they were killing him.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
They were going for it More than just teaching him a
lesson.
They were don't go.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
When the attack was done, Grappelli was still alive.
He climbed up a tree branch andthis made me cry when I watched
it.
This was really sad.
He began making a very sad,like pitiful little call.
He was like groaning but likekind of calling.
He was bleeding and then hairbegan to climb up near grippelli

(28:48):
.
He began swaying the branchthat another chimp was on to get
him to like leave, becausethere was another chimp on
another branch trying to get togrippelli yeah, and hair started
shaking it to like get him offhair was protecting grippelli.
He wanted it to be done and theother chimps went away.
Okay, once everyone leftgrippelli he wanted it to be
done and the other chimps wentaway.
Okay, once everyone left,grappelli was able to climb down
the tree and he slowly walkedoff, and hair followed him.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Ten days later, the researchers found Grappelli's
skeleton.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
Okay, so he was mortally wounded.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yep, and at this point though, it had been taken
over by ants, and it became anant colony, which I kind of
thought like that's beautiful Idon't know, go right back into
the earth and help, help.
Somehow at least I don't knowmakes me feel a little bit
better after seeing that andlike seeing how hair, like made
sure that he didn't die aloneessentially, and in 10 days,

(29:38):
yeah, that wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
Wouldn't mean in those rainforests, wouldn't take
long for a body to get reducedto just bones, especially ants,
caught you.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Yeah, yeah, the humidity like, yeah, you just go
back on the jungle floor prettyquick.
So, yeah, that was a hard partto watch.
In the documentary theresearchers speculate that
Grappelli was just getting tooambitious and he didn't have
enough of that social clout toreally have people back him.

(30:05):
The researchers, they're likewe're pretty sure Pinscher
coordinated this, though,because he had just Grappelli
had just gotten higher than.
Pinscher in the social ladderhierarchy.
So they're almost positive thatPinscher coordinated this
attack, this hit.
And another thing is they go.
Pinscher has white in his eyes.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
And they just noticed in general that those chimps
were listened to better thanothers.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Makes sense yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, they could communicate better, maybe look
more intense.
I don't know what it is.
Maybe you're more intimidatingbecause you can see.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
You can convey more emotions Meaning.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
That's interesting about the eyes, maybe just
simply easier to understand.
Yeah, communicate obviouslyvocally, but you know someone's
got a louder voice, someone'sgot a voice that you know you
enunciate better, whateverreason, you're gonna follow them
more than someone who speaksslow and rumbles exactly.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, that's exactly it I think that makes a lot of
sense.
Now let's go back to Ellingtonand Hare.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yes, the two besties, the reason I threw that out
there the two BFFs.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yep, we're in about 2003-ish now and Ellington went
missing.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
He just goes away and never comes back.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
So something happened , not with Hare On his own, on
his own, ellington, as we know,liked to do his patrols.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
He probably was on the borderland and who knows
what happened, right?

Speaker 2 (31:30):
We don't know.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
There's no surprises here.
Ellington's gone, okay, nevercomes back.
Once Hare starts to notice thatEllington isn't coming back,
the researchers are really sadfor him and you can see hair
like, looking around like whereis he?

Speaker 2 (31:45):
where's my phone?

Speaker 1 (31:46):
looking at the other chimps that are grooming each
other and instead of hair tryingto join someone else, he just
walks away alone.
He just like looks depressed.
I cried during this time, likeonce I start crying, I just keep
going, so like I was alreadylike just rolling into it yeah,
like whatever.
So I cried at this part too andhe just looked really sad.

(32:08):
I mean, that's it like hedoesn't like die, or anything,
just the depth of their emotionsthey really notice.
Yeah, their emotional lives areas complex and rich as humans in
2004, the researchers followeda large group of males of the
Ngogo chimps out west and theyheard very large vocalizations.

(32:32):
The chimps sounded excited andthe researchers were like, okay,
what's going on here?
They realized the chimps werelooking at something.
They were looking at a chimpthat was barely alive, and it
was a chimp named banford.
Okay, he's one of their own yeah, all right, what the fuck okay,
and the chimps were acting sad,um kind of dramatic as well,

(32:55):
like screeching, you know.
Dramatic in the sense of likeif you lose someone, like oh you
know, kind of big cries andscreeching, and then they would
get somber and then some woulddo some alarm calls and you
could just see all thecomplexity there.
It they know when one of theirown are dying.
Then a little bit further alongwas another one of their own

(33:15):
chimps and he was dead oh sothis is like an earlier patrol
that presumably went out, maybekilled by neighboring chimps.
Yeah, the evidence is there.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
So the second troop or patrol group finds them.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
It's like what the hell?
After they saw this, the Nogogochimps really stepped up their
border patrols.
Their patrols got larger, theywent out more often A direct
reaction to this.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
So they're smart, they know what's going on?

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Okay, we're in danger , something's happening.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
We got to figure this out.
Problem solvers.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yes, jumping to 2009.
Yeah, the Ngogo chimps began tomove up to an area that's
northeast of their territory.
It was a large group withfemales and kids.
This time they weren'tpatrolling.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
They were families moving.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, all right.
Yeah yeah, not the explorers,but like we've claimed it, now
it's time to settle it.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yep, so they're expanding their territory.
You bring your families alongnow and like yep, this is our
new home.
And that's what the researchersnoticed.
Oh, they're expanding.
Okay, so their territory isgetting bigger.
Now, in the spring of 2014,several prime adult males went
missing, which was odd.
Yeah, they were in good health.
They shouldn't have gonemissing, really, but they did.

(34:32):
They were presumed dead, neverseen again.
Among them that disappearedwere lofty and pincher.
Oh yeah, lofty lofty the bullyalpha disappears in the mist,
yeah, and pincher with the wideeyes I don't know, they just
they.
That's it, they justdisappeared in the jungle yeah,
and the researchers were tearfulabout it.

(34:53):
I mean it's just sad to see notjust the chimps being sad about
them leaving, but like thehumans that are watching are
growing fine, I mean it's 2009or 14 now.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
They've been there since the 90s like early 90s you
know, 93.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
So that's just.
It's sad to see them go awaythey're 20 years now.
And researcher Matani, and I'mgoing to try and find this photo
because he shows it on theYouTube documentary.
He has a photo of Lofty holdinga dead monkey after one of
their hunts and looking up tothe sky as if he's thanking the

(35:28):
gods, and, of course, matani'slike who knows really what he's
doing.
But Lofty would consistentlylook up in that way.
He would look whenever he had amonkey or whenever it rained.
Like there were certain thingsthat sparked Lofty to look up to
the sky and they wereconsistent.
So Mitanni noted that and hewas like is this religion?

(35:49):
He was like probably not, butlike he's looking up for
something.
Is he thanking the tree forbringing him the monkey?
Is he thanking the water forcoming down?
Like he's there's something inhis brain who knows, he might
not be thanking anything but themonkey comes from the tree, the
water comes from the sky.
Maybe he's just looking up to belike.
I got water and food from upthere.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Who knows, it's just interesting to see, but the
photo that's shown, shown youcan imagine your own like human.
Yes, project, yeah, but there'sI mean.
But it is interesting tospeculate that there could be
some proto spirituality, likehow that?

Speaker 1 (36:26):
exactly like it blossomed in our species
somewhere at some point in timeI mean we we started burying our
dead with items yeah, that,that implies they think that
there's.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
whether you think that there's a heaven or an
afterlife that they're going to,or just Something, even if it's
not thought out rationally, butyou believe there's something
beyond.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So why are we the?

Speaker 2 (36:49):
who says humans are the ones to corner the market on
that.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
Exactly Right, yeah, just interesting again.
Now we wants to corner themarket on that.
Exactly right, yeah, justinteresting again now we're
jumping ahead to 2016, all right.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
The population is now 204 okay, I'm gonna say it's
got to be about 200 by now yeah,it was 170 a few years ago and
they're still breeding thingsare becoming more and more
aggressive between the males.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
They're starting to treat like at this point.
They're starting to treat eachother like strangers.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
It's getting too big.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, and this is the beginning of the divide.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
Because they split Shocker.
Or spoiler yeah, bartok is nolonger the alpha.
He's a bit older and hebasically is retired.
He's still alive, he still hasgood ranking in the community,
but he's just chill.
He sleeps most of the day,spends a lot of the time alone
in the forest.
He doesn't really join in onthe action as much as he used to

(37:46):
.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
He lets the younger ones do it.
He still has twilight years, hejust chills out, yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
And I don't know who became the alpha after Bartok.
Okay, but Mawea is also stilldoing well.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Oh, he's still alive, okay.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, he's 34 in 2016 .
Okay, and oh, I forgot, he onlyhad one hand because it got
caught in a snare in 2007.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
I do remember in Chimp Empire.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
There's another one, but it's a different chimp.
Oh, okay, because I thoughtthey were being a one-handed
chimp.
And yeah, he got around justfine, it's fucking poachers man
that's gotta love it, so yeahthey're two separate chimps, but
they both have one hand.
They both survive, though, andthrive within their roots.
Yeah, yeah, yep, they can stilluse their stump when they walk
around on it yeah yeah, hair isnow 23 years old in 2016 and

(38:38):
he's typically found, you know,hanging out chilling.
He's not too uppity oraggressive.
In 2016, he did have twoorphans following him around,
and the orphans names werepeewee and errol.
E-r-r-o-l-l like errol flynnyes, and hair was viewed as the

(38:59):
nicest person in nagogo.
That's what the researcherssaid about oh okay, you can't
when you watch.
I'm sorry, they're people Ican't non-human persons yes,
non-human persons is the bestway to describe them.
There's somewhere betweenanimals and humans and I get
we're're all.
I know, we're all animals, butyou know what I mean yeah.
Yeah, so the group officiallydivided in 2017.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
The Great Schism Again, like the Roman Empire,
East and West.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
Yep.
The community grew so largethat it divided into three
subgroups at first, oh okay,mm-hmm, that it divided into
three subgroups at first.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
Oh, okay, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
And the researchers noticed that, before there was a
definite split, the threesubgroups that were underneath
this umbrella of the one group.
The researchers noticed thatthe chimps, as they matured,
would start to hang out incertain areas within their big
territory.
Some of them would stay alittle more central.
Yeah, Some of them would go tothe east side and some of them

(39:58):
would stay a little more central.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah, Some of them would go to the east side and
some of them would go to thewest side.
Yeah, that's what they noticedLittle neighborhoods,
essentially Same city butdifferent neighborhoods.
Yes, yeah, they would stilldefend the big territory
together.
Yeah, or still united againsttrue neighbors, true others.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
They call this socio-spatial subgroups.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
But I know we're jumping a little bit.
In 2015, the relationshipbetween the Western subgroup and
the East and the Central weredeclining sharply.
Okay, the Western subgroup wasthe one that began reacting to
the Eastern and the Centralgroups as if they were strangers
.
Okay, they started it.
Yeah, and they would charge atthem and they would do this

(40:38):
whole display thing.
And even when the Central orEastern subgroups would be
calling out for like help orsomething, the Westerners
wouldn't.
They wouldn't go, they wouldn'treturn the calls, they wouldn't
go check it out.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
They would ignore them yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
They would just be like, well, I don't give a shit,
yeah, wouldn't go check it out.
They would ignore them.
Yeah, they would just be like Idon't give a shit, yeah.
And then the westerners turnedinto patrol like behavior,
silently stalking the centraland eastern subgroups.
And that's why, by 2017, itjust completely split and the
eastern and the central subgroupmerged together.
Okay, to create just thecentral group.

(41:14):
So it's the central and theWestern.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
All right.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
There were two lethal attacks by chimpanzees of the
Western community against malesof the central community.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
So the central males were attacked by the.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Western.
The Westerns are aggressive,yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
The Westerns kind of like the Confederacy.
I guess they break off and thenthey start the war.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
Sure, yeah, with the old school, that's how it's got
to be, yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
There was one attack from the Western community in
2018 and another one in 2019,and we'll talk about it Okay.
The first fatal attack in 2018was against Errol the orphan
Errol.
That orphan.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
Errol.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
That Hare was looking after.
Yeah, errol, at this point is15 and a half.
Okay, january 24th 2018, theWestern chimps were in a fruit
tree eating when they suddenlystopped eating, and about half
of them males and femalesbecause the Western females are
attackers too they're all partof it they're rough they rushed

(42:22):
partway down the tree and theirattention was focused on
something below them.
It was Errol, and he was on theground already, having been
severely attacked.
His left ear was torn off, hehad deep cuts on his face and he
had a deep wound on his upper,back and thigh.
He was really, really beat upand Errol would sit up and make

(42:43):
like a weak alarm call, whichwas really hard to watch and
several of the Western malesheard.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Oh no.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
And the Western males are named Wes Wayne and
Richmond.
And they climbed down the treeand the Western males are named
Wes Wayne and Richmond Okay.
And they climbed down the treeand they rushed toward Errol,
attacking and killing him.
Damn and the scientists.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
These were your brothers, just a few years ago
Exactly.
Civil War.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, and the scientists didn't see how Errol
was initially attacked but,they're pretty sure it was
Western chimps before that too,yeah, and the rest just finished
the job.
Now the second death occurred,and this was the final one that
really made the divisionpermanent.
This was like all right, we'redone.
The death of Basie B-A-S-I-E, a33-year-old male of the Central

(43:34):
group 33, man yeah.
It was early morning, june of2019.
The central chimps, along withBasie, are up in the canopy of
the tree enjoying fruit whenthey hear some rustling and it's
the west chimps.
And the west chimps just aresurrounding them and there's

(43:56):
like this weird long standoffthat the chimps are down below.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Westerns are on the ground and the centrals are up
in the air.
Yeah, and they're like fuck,what do we?

Speaker 1 (44:01):
do, and no one seems to really want to do anything.
I mean, this is a 20 minutestandoff.
Okay, I don't get it.
They like really are debatinghere, I guess.
And then the Western males makethe first move.
One of the Western champs namesis Rollins, and he's leading
the way.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Henry Rollins yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
And then following Rollins is Richmond, Wes and
Wayne, Not Wayne.
There's two other guys, Bucknerand Garrison.
Wayne's probably there too, butyeah, the males pass by the
females and the babies of thecentral group that are up there
and they just go straight forthe males.
Yeah, the fight ensues on thecanopy and the babies of the
central group that are up thereand they just go straight for
the males.
The fight ensues on the canopyand the researchers can't really
see much, but they can hear andthey realize that most of the

(44:42):
central chimps were able toescape the attack.
However, five of the westernchimps trapped Basie in a small
tree.
He was surrounded RichmondBuckner and another western
chimp, hutch hutcherson wow,hutcherson hutcherson say that
again.

(45:03):
They were attacking him as baseywas trying to get down.
Basey fell down the tree, onlyto land in the hands of other
western chimps waiting at thebase.
Basie was badly beaten.
I actually wrote we don't needto get into that detail because
I remember and it's not good, sowatch it if you want to see it.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
all right, he was left alone to die there.
That is Yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
You didn't make it back.
Yeah, Basie did walk alone fora little bit, though he was kind
of once the attackers left him.
He was trying to get away, butjust weakly walking away, and
the chimp Brownface.
He was the last chimp that wasable to swing between both
groups without being hurt.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Last go between.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Yeah, so Brownface was able to.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
he followed Basy he ended up staying central.
He did end up staying central.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Eventually he did because I think this, I think
this is what convinced brownfaceto be like fuck this yeah,
basey and brownface they walktogether and brownface reaches
out his hand and touches baseyand then brownface really seems
upset and like is observing him,looking at him watching.
They were walking alongside eachother.

(46:20):
Whenever Basie needed to stop,brown face would stop.
Basie eventually would lie downto rest for about 10 minutes
with brown face checking on himevery couple minutes.
Brown face then moved away fromBasie and just started walking,
leading Basie like hey, come on.
And Basie followed him for 34minutes.
They were walking until theyreached a small stream.

(46:42):
Basie drank from the stream andthen they found a dry spot next
to the stream and made a chimpnest on the ground and then two
other central chimps approachedat different times.
Like at certain points Brownfacewas doing little call outs to
get other central chimps to comeand I think he was moving Basie
to safer territory andeventually a couple other

(47:05):
central chimps come over tocheck it out and they give out
little like like yeah, likethose little like.
They're just kind of sad andlike upset, and this was on for
about 10 minutes.
They realize he's dying.
The next morning theresearchers saw that Basie moved
a little bit.
He was still alive but he wassitting slumped with his hair
matted from the blood andBrownface was still by his side.

(47:29):
Brownface tried to get Basie tofollow him by like swaying a
small little sapling branchesthat were growing out of the
ground.
This is something that chimpsdo to get a mate to follow him
by swaying a small littlesapling branches that were
growing out of the ground.
This is something that chimpsdo to get a mate to follow them.
But I guess maybe that wasBrownface's last effort to get
Basie to move.
Brownface was kind of doing thelittle hoots and sad hollers

(47:49):
and Basie wasn't coming though.
Then Brownface went up to Basieand he swatted the flies that
were around.
Basie swatted them away.
He put his hands over Basie'sarms to groom him Like he was
like doing like final things.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Yeah, like he realized, asked rights.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
He was really sad.
I wasn't going to cry and I'mnot going to now Go away fucking
tears.
So then brown face moved offagain and he returned back to
Basie and he like grimaces, likehe's, like he's crying, I think
, and he reaches out a hand toBasie, who just doesn't move
because he's dead, and brownface begins pacing and like back

(48:28):
and forth.
He's all worked up.
And then Basie did move alittle bit.
He was able to make anothernest and then this is well move
a little bit.
Okay, he was able to makeanother nest and then this is
well Brownface kind of helped.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
And then Brownface then left.
I think they just knew okay,you're in a nest, yeah this is,
and then once Brownface left.
Basie passed away.
So, yeah, that was really sad.
I'm going to take a drink of mycaffeine, yeah.
So those are the two majorthings that happen to really
solidify this divide.
Yeah we are not the sameanymore yep, so we have the

(48:59):
western group and the centralgroup.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
They're divided they're still in the same park.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Essentially, preservations yes yeah, so now
that brings us to talking aboutwhat happens in Chimp Empire
documentary on Netflix.
That was filmed for a littleover a year, beginning January
of 2021.
Okay, and it was released in2023.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Oh, all right.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
So yeah, as the Chimp Empire documentary starts, the
number for the central Nagogocommunity is now down to 120.
Okay, after this division, yeah, but if you watch the
documentary, they kind of whichis they do a great job.
I mean, if you spoiler, if youhaven't watched it, but watch it

(49:48):
because I'm going to give itall away but they do a good job
of storytelling and they don'treally let you know that these
groups of chimps used to be onebig group.
They tell you that, like at theend, like oh, this is so tense
because yeah but knowing nowgoing into it, you know, okay,
the central group is down to 120because of that divide.
At this point, the alpha malefor the nogogo chimps is jackson

(50:11):
.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Okay, and he has been for the central or the western
for the central.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
So now right, yeah the way the chimp empire
documentary says itself.
Please make sure I'm beingclear, because they refer to the
nagogo central group as thenagogo chimps okay, and they
refer to the western group asthe others okay, and then the
others Gotcha.
So I'm going to try and keep itas central and Westerners

(50:38):
though.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
Because that makes the most sense to me.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
So Jackson's replaced Bartok.
Yes, I don't know how, I don'tknow what happened there.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
But somehow they know , though, because in the chimp
empire they were like he's beenthe alpha since 2017.
Okay, and I tried to look intoit and I was like I don't know.
Yeah, okay, jackson has been incharge for six years now.
He is a bit older for an alphaand he's aware that he's a
little bit older, so he triesreally hard to not show any
signs of weakness at all.

(51:05):
Like overcompensates, he giveslofty vibes.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
He does big displays regularly showing the group
who's in charge, and he'saggressive and unpredictable and
just throwing shit.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
He's the type that would throw a parade for himself
on his birthday, right yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
Yeah, the group.
Though they respond to him withrespect.
They're like yeah, you're thealpha, we know, Okay, okay, okay
.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
We get it.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
Yeah, we get it, but Jackson can see that some of the
chimps are starting to show alittle less respect than others.
There's a younger male chimpnamed Abrams.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
Abrams.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
He's still a little too young to pose like a real
threat.
But Abrams is smart andconfident.
Abrams is beginning to do somedominance displays.
He's letting others know thathe wants to climb this ladder.
He wants to go for the alpharole maybe someday.
And at this point jackson isignoring it.
He's like I'll address it if Ihave to eventually.
But he's taking note.
Jackson also was a little bit.

(52:13):
He was a little bit better thanLofty.
He was able to make some allies.
At least one ally was a largemale chimp named Miles.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
Miles.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Miles is older, he's like 40 oh yeah damn yep, um,
and he's really big.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
He's the biggest known chimp in Nagogo oh yeah,
so that's a good ally to havebig.
Yeah, yeah, I know right.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Yeah, you get the hulk of chimps with you yep,
jackson and miles.
They share a very tight bondand they're always with one
another, grooming, lounging,exploring the forest.
They're just really bonded.
There was another male chimp,but a young one, and his name is
gus.
He's only 14 and he finallyleft the sanctity of his mother

(52:59):
to find his own way within thegroup not leaving the group, but
yeah he's on his own now.
Essentially mom's like I gotother kids to raise bye, you're
an adult.
Yep and the the hope at thispoint, because many male chimps
leave around this time and thehope is that they will bond with
other males, start grooming andgetting those allies together
and just seeing who you're,who's your friend gonna be,

(53:20):
we're gonna hang out with gus isawkward, though like so awkward
yeah gus is so cute.
I love gus.
He tries so hard.
Yeah, now Christine is a femalechimp.
She's 20, 21, and she has afew-month-old baby girl, and

(53:41):
she's not named until she's atleast one year older.
She survives to one year,nothing bad happens.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
They don't name them until they're going to survive,
exactly.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
As Christine's focus is on her new baby, she's not
really paying attention to herolder daughter anymore, Nadine.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Nadine.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
Nadine is seven years old.
So Nadine is kind of like I'mjealous, I want to hang out.
You kind of see it in thedocumentary like that.
She's like actively, like Iwant your attention.
Mom, come on, like it's justinteresting to see that dynamic
happen to mom, mom, mom, mom,mom, look at me.
Look at dynamic happen too.
Mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, look atme look at me mom like that

(54:19):
kind of yeah, yeah, it was justfunny and it was also really
cute to see how the adult chimpsare very tolerant of the little
babies that are around too.
Like the babies climb on theirfaces and and claw not claw at
them, but the way that, likehuman babies, kind of slap your
face and kind of put their handson you, the chimps do it too.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Yeah, pull on their fur and just.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
The adults are pretty good with it.
Some of the bigger males canpose a threat, like Jackson
blundering through doing hisdisplays.
Yeah, that's not good, but forthe most part the adults are
pretty good.
I just, I don't know.
I like to see that side of thechips, yeah.
Getting back to Gus, he issocially awkward, but he's not
stupid, he's pretty smart.
He's just awkward and he seesthat Abrams is someone that's a

(55:01):
possible up and comer.
He's like, hey, this guy'sgoing to make some moves, so I'm
going to try to groom Abrams.
Now Abrams is like, fuck, yeah,ok, groom, and Gus gets to
groom Abrams.
Abrams allows it yeah, okay,groom and he, gus, gets to groom
abrams.
Abrams allows it, doesn'treciprocate, though.
No, yeah, abrams does not groomgus back, and I don't know if

(55:22):
I'm just projecting, because Iwould feel bad.
But gus, don't you remember?
He like looked sad when abramswalked away yeah, so gus is not
an equal to abrams, and that'show that is solidified there.
Abrams went off to find anothergrooming partner.
He had plans of his own BecauseMiles and Jackson are so close.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
Abrams is trying to work his way in and drive a
wedge between them.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
So Abrams goes up to groom Miles and Miles allows it.
Yeah, and do you remember?

Speaker 2 (55:58):
He reciprocates, yeah , oh.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
So that's a big sign too, because Abrams has already
shown the group hey, I want tomake this move.
Yeah, miles saw it, jackson sawit, gus saw it yeah.
And now Miles is like I see you.
Yeah, okay, I don't know, thisis interesting.
They all know what they'redoing.
They all know what they'redoing.
This is not by chance.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Nothing's accidental with chimps.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
No.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
Not even when they tear your face off because they
shouldn't be pets.
No, no, they do that becausethey're chimps.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
They're killing you on purpose.
They don't do it Anyway.
And they're killing you onpurpose.
They don't do it Anyway.
Sorry, yeah, don't own wildanimals.
Now, one way that Jackson cankeep everyone together and
unified under him is by having acommon enemy.
So the others, or the neighbors, and I'm pretty sure for the
most part of this chimp empire,the others that they refer to

(56:51):
are the Western group I meanthey're surrounded by other
chimps too, other things, butI'm pretty sure the main ones
are the Westerners.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
The main rivals are the ones that used to be your
fellow countrymen.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
Yes, yeah, don't we know it.
So Jackson is aware thatregular patrols are necessary
for their safety and to keep theterritory that they have and
possibly maybe expanding theirterritory.
That's always the goal withchimps is expansion.
So everyone helps in thesepatrols, even awkward little Gus

(57:23):
has to come and have all themales.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
You just got to do it .
It's like you're drafted,you're conscripted.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
There's another chimp named Pork Pie.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
Pork Pie.
Remember him, I remember thename.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
Pork Pie wasn't really brave.
He wasn't tough like he justwas like I don't want to go.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
You can tell like in the in the he's a mama's boy,
kind of just like no, he didn'twant to do it in the documentary
.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
He's like actively nervous looking around like fuck
, what are we doing, ah.
So it's interesting again tosee the personalities right,
yeah, yeah as the chimps head tothe northern border to patrol.
They approach the borderlandsand everyone gets a bit anxious.
Even the big chimps seemnervous, like the older ones are
kind of like all right, here weare, and Pork Pie is in the

(58:06):
back of the line and he'sreluctant to keep moving forward
.
Abrams though, he's loving it,he's in the middle of all of it.
As the group pushes forward,they enter someone else's
territory.
They're trespassing now they'requiet.
They're moving slowly and theylisten again, trying to size up
the competition to see how manyare around.

(58:28):
Are they outnumbered?
Who's larger?
Pork pie's anxiety gets thebetter of him.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
He just freaks out.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
He goes back.
Oh goes, he goes back he startsto head back home.
They are in, they're in enemyterritory, but they're not that
far into it.
They're still near the border.
So he's like, ah, I'm gonna go.
So he goes back to histerritory fuck this shit.
I'm out for real gus, who isalso anxious, looks around like,
okay, what do I?
What do I do now?
But he decides to stay with thegroup because he's scared of

(58:56):
leaving the group, right?

Speaker 2 (58:57):
There's two different types of scared.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
So yeah, gus stays, pork pie goes.
Now we have Jackson and Mileson the patrol and they make the
decision to attack.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
They charge forward and the other chimpanzees I'm
assuming the Westerners theyflee.
There was no real fight thatoccurred that was it.
Yep.
The central group had asuccessful patrol.
The border's secure and theyget to return to the center of
their territory to relax asthey're on their way home they

(59:31):
see some movement up in thetrees Small little monkeys.
Food food, the group decides togo hunting.
Now I just want to do a sidetangent here with their hunting,
because even in the 90s and theearly aughts, when they were
doing all the hunting andeverything too this, these
chimps brought these littlemonkeys in this area.

(59:52):
Like they cut the population bylike 90%, oh, or 70.
It was like over 50%.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
It was a lot, oh I didn't realize that Because of
how much they hunted theresearchers are, so they were
overhunting.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
They don't need to eat this many monkeys they're
not doing it for survival.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
They're not Like their biggest thing is fruit.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
I mean this for sport , yeah, and for political gain
to share meat.
It's very human.
Like qualities is all I'msaying.
Eat to the point of destroyingit, never having it again.
Yeah, like they brought thosemonkeys in that area close to
extinction.
Sorry, I just it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Yeah, yeah we great apes anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
So they see the monkeys and they go hunting and
they have a successful hunt andJackson begins dividing up the
meat.
He gives meat to the allies,miles of course being one of
them, and he leaves others out.
Abrams was excluded.
It was a good day overall forthe central group.
You could say yeah.
And later on, though, maybe aday or so after this patrol,

(01:00:57):
after this successful great day,the chimps were hanging out
eating fig from a nice big figtree.
When Gus begins to hoot softly,he's like oh, oh oh look at
that, what is that?
And he sees a dead chimp.
Other chimps from the group goto investigate and they poke the
chimp, they sniff them.

(01:01:18):
They look at them.
When they realize who it is,they look sad, confused,
concerned.
It's pork pie.
They begin to shriek and callout they.
They seem like they're crying,but they're also very concerned
and because he got killed withintheir territory.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
The strangers came in , yeah, killed him.
So you can see that some of thechimps are like sad, but others
are like what the fuck?
You can see their eyes?
Yeah, like whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa.
We're going to go back to twodays before Pork Pie's death.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
All right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
To talk about the Western group.
The Western group is smallerthan the Central group and you
would think this might be adisadvantage, but it kind of
helps them, it strengthens theirbonds.
Everyone's necessary.
There's no inner fightingreally, because we need everyone
.
The female chimps also helpwith patrols and hunting.
Everyone is utilized, everyonehas a role.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
There's purpose.
Yeah, doing their part.
No one's extraneous.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Right.
Hutcherson is a part of theWestern group and he is the
alpha male for the Westernersright now.
He doesn't dominate the waythat Jackson does with the
central group.
He distributes responsibilityand roles equally Kind of like
Bartok.
Yeah, I'm getting you know thatkind of idea from him, Like I,
equally kind of like Bartok.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
I'm getting you know that kind of idea from him.
Like I said, all of the adultshave important roles.
They're all very much needed.
What was interesting isHutcherson's mom.
Her name is Garbo.
She's 65 years old, yeah, andshe still plays a vital role in
the community.
She brings wisdom and knowledgeand shows certain things to
them.
So garbo also has another son,richmond, who is 34 years old at

(01:03:05):
this time.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
We've already talked about them a little bit, yep and
richmond takes care of his mom.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
Okay, you can see that he helps her out with
certain things.
She can still move around andeverything, but like he might
give her extra fruit orsomething, hey I got a fruit for
you.
Um, richmond only has one hand.
As a young chimp, he lost it ina poacher snare yeah richmond
was once the alpha, though, andhe was replaced by his own
brother yeah they're like theroyal family I feel like you

(01:03:32):
know, they just kind of staywithin their little group and
they get.
You know, I don't know she'ssurviving so well because she's
the mother of two alpha males,so she's 65, and then the other
alpha male has one arm, but hisbrother's the alpha, so it's
like we're taken care of.
Yeah, we're good, yeah, I likeit.
There were also two orphanswithin the western group um, one

(01:03:55):
named burgle, and he's young,he's only about 10.
And then there's joya, who is afemale, and she's also 10.
They're not siblings, they'rejust both independent orphans.
Burgle is old enough right nowto show signs of dominance and
begin displaying, but he's notreally old enough yet for anyone

(01:04:16):
to view him as like a threat.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Yeah, but he's right on the cusp so he's got to be
careful.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Maybe someone could.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
Well, I do think he gets into a little bit of
trouble, but nothing too, likeno one kills him, but like he's
kind of knocked around a bit,type of thing.
Like hey, you're getting closeto that age, I'll knock you in
your butt right now.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
But two, two years from now, you're gonna die like
you know what I mean.
He's on the juvenile.
Yeah, yeah, yeah becomes a lifeoffense in your next birthday
basically yeah, right now you goto juvie, next time you go to
prison yeah there was a youngadult male chimp named buckner
that noticed burgle and didn'tlike what he saw.

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
And so, like I said, some of the other males were
tussling Burgle around and theyjust, yeah, they hurt him.
He didn't die, but he got hurt.
So Joya is growing up andbecoming a woman, but her
motherly instincts aren't.
They're coming in, but she'sawkward, she doesn't know what
to do with them.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
She's an orphan yeah no-transcript.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
Carson, who is a 27 year old female.
Joya has begun to look up toher for help.
So that's nice.
Carson allows this becauseshe's like I've got two kids and
I'm pregnant with my third.
I'll take any help, awkward ornot I need the help yep, now
we're introduced to garrison,who's a male chimp.

(01:06:08):
he's in his 40s and he knows howto move through the forest
really, really well.
He has basically a map of it inhis head.
If If there's food to be found,he's going to find it.
Fruit is the biggest part ofthe diet for chimpanzees Eating
fruit fruit trees.
We know they eat monkeys, weknow they eat other things, but

(01:06:28):
fruit is the main thing.
However, most of the fruit treesare on the edge of the central
territory, near the westernterritory, and as they go to
find the fruit trees, they go ona patrol because they want to
expand their territory to getmore trees.
All the chimps of the westerngroup go on patrol, including

(01:06:50):
the females.
Rollins is age 35 at this pointand his little brother, damien,
is in his teens, and they leadthe patrol.
As the Western group getscloser to the borderlands to try
and get the trees, garrisonkeeps a watchful eye.
They're in Central Territorynow and Rollins finds a huge fig

(01:07:12):
tree and it's just what theWestern group was looking for.
And as most of the chimps areup in the tree eating the fruit,
damien the teenager is at thebottom watching, patrolling,
making sure everything's good.
Rollins and Damien.
They start looking around,physically moving, like they're
looking for chimps now, becausethey're like all right, we're

(01:07:32):
ready to take this part of theterritory, we're ready for it to
be ours.
So they're looking for a fight.
The other chimps start tofollow them and they're moving
deeper into the centralterritory, and this is where
this group of Westerners foundpork pie.
Okay, so this is leading up tothat day.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Oh gotcha.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
The Western group surrounds pork pie and they
attack him, killing pork pie Atleast enough to where he what
pork pie?
Eventually wandered off toanother tree.
And then, yeah, we, we know thestory.
The western group then enjoyedhunting and killing the monkeys
as well.
So again, a lot of monkeykilling.
Now, during the meat exchange,garbo the 65 year old gets some

(01:08:12):
food, carson the mom, um, alsogets some food.
But burgle, that little orphanboy.
He doesn't get any because hewas showing a little too much
and they're kind of putting himin his place and he's actually
no longer getting groomed byanyone either in the group Like
they're really not happy withhim.
Burgle's face then becomesinfected due to the parasites

(01:08:35):
and the lack of grooming.
Do you remember this in thedocumentary?
I don't remember that I was soupset during this point because
I wasn't sure what was going tohappen.
Because burgle becomes veryweak, he's lying down.
Most of the group haven't evennoticed that he's gone like they
don't like this the orphan yeah, they just don't give a shit
about him.
But garrison noticed okay and gagain is in his 40s so he's

(01:08:59):
less aggressive.
Yeah, he goes over to Burgle andhe lies down next to him.
Garrison knows in his heart andin his wisdom that this group
needs every chimp.

Speaker 2 (01:09:12):
We need everyone.
No one's expendable yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
So Garrison ends up grooming Burgle and Garrison
becomes his caretaker.
Yeah, so Garrison ends upgrooming Burgle and Garrison
becomes his caretaker.
Yeah, so it was nice to seethat happen.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
Okay, so he survives the infection and rebounds.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
Yep, yep, because Garrison comes into play.
Yeah, but they do in thedocumentary make it seem like
Burgle's like about to die.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
And he didn't.
He's fine, okay.
Okay, back in central territorywe have jackson, who's trying
to keep his alpha status secure,displaying and acting
aggressive.
They also go on a hunt and eatmonkeys again, because jackson's
like look at how great I am,look at all these things like
the monkeys seem to be a way toshow like wealth, power,

(01:09:52):
whatever it is yeah and nowremember we have abramams, who
was trying to get that alphafrom the central group.
He wants to be the alpha fromJackson.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
Yeah, didn't he try?
Yeah, he's like he's becomingan ally with Miles.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
Yeah, yeah, but Abrams has his set, his goals
set.
Now, because Abrams was able toconnect with Miles, he's now
beginning to connect withanother male, wilson, creating a
bigger ally ship, just gettingmore people.
Abrams and wilson start apatrol along the western
territory.
Jackson doesn't go on thepatrol.

(01:10:29):
He's actually scared of thewestern group because he
remembers them oh, yeah, yeah, Ido remember this, yeah, jack.
Jackson has scars from theWestern group.
I don't know exactly whathappened, but his ear is bitten.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
He's got like a scar on his face.

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
He's got his ass kicked.
Yeah, in a previous dust up.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
Yes, he's scared of the Western group.
And the Western group targetJackson.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
They look for him and he knows it, so he's like I'll
I don't have to go.
I won't go.
That was just a check in with acentral group to see how things
were developing there.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
Okay, you always seem surprised by your own script.
Oh so that was that yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
I know, you wrote it, that's it.
Sometimes I am surprised by myown script.
It happens a lot.
I write them like multiple waysand then whatever ends up
happening ends up happening.
I don't know, I'm only on aride as well.
So the western group now theystill are just dead set on

(01:11:29):
expanding that territory again.
They're aggressive still.
They're not aggressive likewith each other.
It seems like the central groupis a little more aggressive
within, like more hierarchy,more testosterone, more of that,
whereas the western group seemsto be more of a family and
starts.
They're at a stake, that they'rea player on the stage yeah, so

(01:11:51):
the western group goes out on apatrol and as they're out on
this patrol, it's clear thatthey want to expand.
They're not just patrolling,they go into the central
territory.
As they go into the centralterritory, the westerners see a
mom her name is bertoli and herson, herzog herzog herzog is

(01:12:11):
only six years old, so he's alittle guy and it's just the two
of them, like they're not inwith a bigger group of chimps or
anything why are these chimpsalways going off solo like
they're?
in their own territory.
Bertoli's in her own territory.
She's fine, she's just yourbaby apparently not well, she's
got a young one, so she's alonea lot.
She doesn't want the young onebeing hurt by jackson or abrams

(01:12:33):
or whoever, so she's just doingwhat she can.
The westernersers see her andHerzog and are chased up to the
canopy.
So the mom and Herzog are likeah, and they go up to the canopy
, they're separated for a littlebit.
And Herzog they don't seem tonotice Herzog because they just
see her the mom.
But Herzog, being six, was likemy mom, ah, and starts to try

(01:12:54):
and climb over to her and theneveryone notices the little baby
chimp and the mom and all that.
But none of the Westernersreally make a move and they kind
of assess the situation andthey just leave.
Okay, Because they're lookingto expand.
They're not looking to kill amom and a baby.
That does nothing for theirexpansion, so they move on,

(01:13:16):
which was lucky for them.
It was a tense little bit inthat documentary.
There, as they go deeper, therewere some chimps in the Western
group that began to hesitateand started to fall back and go
home, Mainly the females theyounger males, females.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
Yeah, how far?
Okay, when's enough enough.

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
Exactly, and I guess that's pretty typical.
I read in one of the articlesyou gotta stop at some point.
Yeah, it's pretty normal forlike especially females or
younger males to, once the fightbecomes real, to go away and to
leave it to the big males.
But you still move as a group,though Carson and Joya they go
back.

(01:13:54):
Burgle probably should go back,but his confidence is pretty
high and he wants to see theaction, so he stays.
As the Western group nears, theCentral group is ready.
They're not surprised by theattack.
The women and children all flee.
The men are screeching, hooting, hollering, running, jumping
it's all happening and theWesterners start to push the

(01:14:18):
central group back out of theirterritory.
But jackson hasn't reallyjoined in on the fight yet.
However, at this point he'slike oh, I gotta do it yeah,
gotta go.
So he jumps in, and then thewesterners are pushed out.
Oh, the central group wins thisbattle good for jack Jackson,
but Jackson's hurt.

(01:14:38):
He gets injured from thispretty badly.

Speaker 2 (01:14:42):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Yeah, a few days go by.

Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
Hero sacrifice.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
Yeah, he doesn't kill him, but they're not.
His injuries aren't reallyhealing, though, either.
It's been a few days Jackson'sspending a little more time
alone because he doesn't wantthe group seeing that he's weak.
Yeah, jackson's spending alittle more time alone because

(01:15:07):
he doesn't want the group seeingthat he's weak.
One of his closest allies isWilson at this point, and he's
grown more distant from himthese past few days.
Abrams and Wilson are nowrealizing this is the time to
make their move.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
They begin displaying and acting aggressive toward
Jackson forcing him to run away.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
This was also in front of the whole group.
We're seeing unrest, confusionwithin the group.
It's not really great Abrams,though.
When he tussled with Jacksonand fought and displayed Abrams
got hurt pretty bad by Jackson.
So now we have Jackson andAbrams that are both hurt, that
both want to be alphas.
So what they did was theygroomed each other and they said

(01:15:38):
we're good, we good becauseabrams is younger and the
thought is that he was like I'lljust wait yeah, I'll wait time
I got time.
And I think jackson was like yougot, yep, you got time, let's
just be cool.
So yeah, they groomed eachother and let bygones be bygones
.
Temporarily, peace was restoredwithin the central group.
The westerners though they,hearders though they heard the

(01:16:01):
commotion.
They heard the dust up, theyheard the screams and they're
like there's confusion overthere right now.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
They're not stable.

Speaker 1 (01:16:08):
And then soon after that was a loud rainstorm.
It's hard to hear things in therain.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
They used to discover .

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
Yes, the Westerners decided to attack the central
group again in their territoryunder cover of rainfall.
Yeah, yes, how devious I know,damn, they're like, we'll go
back again, we'll try again.
Like it's like clear that theywere like oh oh, something
happened, so let's go back, yeah.
So yes, this time it's a truesurprise attack.

(01:16:38):
The Western group was able tosurround Jackson because the
central chimps all scurried awayOnce the attack started.
They were just like ah, becausechimps also, when it's a heavy
rainfall, tend to hunker down.
They were sleeping, they werejust waiting for the rain to
pass.
Yeah, but that this is perfectwhy the Westerners did this.
But this is perfect why theWesterners did this.
So they surround Jackson, andall the central chimps ran away,

(01:17:01):
leaving Jackson alone with them.
As they surrounded Jackson, hebegan hooting and hollering,
calling for help, sounding thealarm, and then the central
chimps were like, oh fuck, hedidn't get away.
We need to go back and help.
So when they went back, theother Western chimps did scurry
away.
However, richmond had Jacksonpinned to the ground when the

(01:17:22):
central group came back, whenthey all scattered, though,
there was so much chaos thatJackson was also nowhere to be
seen.
He ran away somewhere too.
Jackson was able to retreatinto the forest alone, very
badly injured.
Now this is like his thirdattack.
Not that long, not that long,yeah, the central group never
seeing Jackson leave.

(01:17:43):
They didn't really know whatwas going on.
So for the next few days lifewent on as normal for the
central group.
They didn't see Jackson, butagain they were just like well,
moving on, jackson's injuriesare not healing, he's staying
alone.
He's just not really around thegroup right now and there's a
male Peterson that finds him andstays with him until Jackson

(01:18:06):
passes away.
And Jackson was 32 when he died.

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
He was assassinated.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
Yeah, I guess.
I mean he was definitelytargeted.
For sure.
A new alpha will rise afterJackson's death.
They know that the new alphawill not have a fear of the
Westerners the same way thatJackson did.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
Yeah, because they'll just be another outside group.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
Yes, they won't have the memory that Jackson does
yeah.
So those chimps that rememberthe full group are dying away.
They're getting too old orwhatever.
They're dying.
And the new generation iscoming in and it's strictly two
separate groups.

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):
Yeah, the memory of them never being one culture is
fading away.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):
My guess is that maybe Abrams is the alpha.
That'd be my guess, yeah, butyeah, so little roundups here.
Abrams maybe is the alpha.
Joya, 10 year old little orphangirl.
She's now 11 at the end of thedocumentary and ready to leave
her group and find another oneto join.
That's how they don't have likeinbreeding.

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
Inbreeding is the girls are the ones that go as
for gus, the one who wassocially awkward.
It was a tough year I doremember he had something good
happen.

Speaker 1 (01:19:19):
He just started having friends.
It finally worked.
He just kept being persistentSome big ape reciprocated.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
Finally in the grooming process.
I remember that in thedocumentary.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
Just like all of them .
Basically, they all juststarted grooming them.
It was a big deal in thedocumentary.
Finally one turned around.
So he found his niche.
And big deal in the documentary, yeah, finally one turned
around.
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
So he found his niche and his place in the community.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
Yeah, so he did it.
Then the Western group overalljust had a great year.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
right, they expanded their territory Massive
expansion, they got more fruittrees.
Yeah, they got food.

Speaker 1 (01:19:54):
Yep.
So we'll see how it all playsout I guess yeah, yeah, but um,
that's it awesome.
Yeah, I enjoyed this thoroughly.

Speaker 2 (01:20:06):
I hope so yeah, did you learn anything?
Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
I I mean don't well, I mean, I don't know what.
Yeah, tell me now.
Yeah, but no, I was on the edgeof my seat.

Speaker 2 (01:20:12):
There are things that you didn't know, that I talked,
that's fun I mean, I definitelydidn't know um about the uh
sclera, um the whiteness thatthis specific group had yeah,
like more of it than others.

Speaker 1 (01:20:24):
Yeah, any chimp can be born that way, but this was
such a high concentration.

Speaker 2 (01:20:29):
Yeah, and that could be influencing their.

Speaker 1 (01:20:32):
I mean logically it would be influencing how they're
living.
Yeah, I think that's veryinteresting and chimps are yeah,
they're yeah, they're living,yeah, I think that's very
interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:20:39):
Chimps are there.
Yeah, they're interesting.
I went to, you know, a fewyears ago.
I went down to I foster aorangutan at a great ape
sanctuary in Florida.

Speaker 1 (01:20:51):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:20:51):
And me and my aunt and uncle went and visited for
an open house.
It's not open to the publicgenerally, just if you're a
member.
If you're a member, if you're asponsor, you get to visit once
a year.
So, we're walking through thispaddock and there's there's
shoots everywhere for the chimpsand the orangutans to traverse
and there was a lot of peoplethere in this.
One chimp was just standingover this grading and just

(01:21:11):
rocking side to side and justgiven this like hooting call and
it was, it was.
I mean, it was justintimidating, just to hear it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:18):
So it was a chimp doing the calling but you have
an orangutan, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):
They're both chimps and orangutans at this facility.
They're separate from eachother.

Speaker 1 (01:21:25):
Is it only those two types of apes at this facility?
Yeah, there's no gorillas orbonobos.
Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):
I asked why there's not gorillas and they said
because all of their chimps andorangutans are retired from the
entertainment industry or fromprivate ownership.
It's a sanctuary.

Speaker 1 (01:21:42):
Gorillas were never really used as much yeah as
chimps and orangutans were likeyeah yeah, so they're like there
was not really a demand for oneof michael jackson's chimps.
Yeah, bubbles.

Speaker 2 (01:21:53):
He's there, yep bubbles is there and the and we
mentioned earlier this non-humanpersonhood, but the orangutan
Sandra in Argentina a few yearsago made headlines because a
judge declared her legally anon-human person and she
couldn't be kept in this awfulzoo alone and arrangements were

(01:22:17):
made and she was the judgeordered she had to be
transferred to a sanctuary, anon-profit, and she was
transferred to the Center forGreat Apes in Florida and she's
still there today thriving.

Speaker 1 (01:22:29):
Maybe I should be a sponsor of a chimp and then we
can both go.

Speaker 2 (01:22:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
You can just pick randomly, right, I don't want to
choose one.

Speaker 2 (01:22:36):
I want them to pick for me.

Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
I don't want to pick like.
I just feel bad choosing.
They all need help.

Speaker 2 (01:22:40):
Yeah, I mean obviously, it all goes to the
general pot.

Speaker 1 (01:22:42):
Oh yeah, that's true.
I don't know, I just alwaysfeel.

Speaker 2 (01:22:50):
Well, no one sponsored Sandra this year, so
you don.

Speaker 1 (01:22:53):
It's on your quote unquote your chimp or orangutan,
it's the center for great apes.
Center for great apes.
I'll link that in our shownotes and I'll put it on our
Instagram too as well, okay,well, yeah, I hope you guys like
this.
I just wanted to chimps becausewhen I was watching these
documentaries they felt likehumans and I just wanted to give
a non-human personhoodperspective to these animals

(01:23:18):
that I think, think, I don'tknow, I don't know, man, I think
we can learn a lot about us bywatching them we can understand
our evolution yeah watching ourclosest genetic relatives wild
yeah anyway, you can follow uson Instagram at Borrowed Bones
Podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:23:40):
Oh, do you want?

Speaker 1 (01:23:41):
to send us off with the sound of the chim.

Speaker 2 (01:23:43):
Oh yeah, hold on.
So again, this is a few yearsago when I visited Center for
Great Apes, and this is, Let meget it right here.

Speaker 1 (01:23:55):
He's very excited to see everybody.
Oh yeah, Very excited to seeeverybody, aww very excited to
see everybody, little southerndrawl very excited, oh okay,
yeah, we'll have the links inthe show notes and yeah, again,
follow us on instagram checkthings out.
I hope you liked it thanks forlistening bye.

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