June 28, 2024 • 48 mins
In this episode of the Boss Responses podcast, host Treasa Edmond welcomes Liz Heflin for her final episode of the week and an in-depth discussion on setting freelance rates. Liz shares her journey, starting from her early days of charging minimum wage to her current position of offering high-value content services. The episode covers key strategies for setting rates, dealing with rate-related imposter syndrome, negotiating with clients, and building lasting partnerships. Treasa and Liz provide actionable advice for freelancers to confidently set and adjust their rates, ensuring they get paid what they're worth while maintaining successful client relationships.
About Our Guest
Liz Heflin has been a freelance writer and editor since 2006. She’s also the founder of MACE Writing, her content marketing consultancy. After fifteen years of seeing firsthand the benefits of freelance, she launched a second arm of her business. Designed to help her fellow freelance writers have more success, these services include group and private coaching, resource creation, and the Inkwell community. Liz is excited every day to do her job, and her mission is helping other freelancers capture that in their lives!
Links You Might Want
Check out Liz's Inkwell community
Interested in Liz's "Find Your Floor" course? Learn more about it.
Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to listen to Boss Responses. This podcast is a passion project that comes from years of helping freelancers shape a business that supports the lifestyle they want.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Treasa Edmond (00:00):
Welcome back to the Boss Responses podcast.
It's day five with our guestfor the week, the fantastic Liz
Heflin.
Liz has been a freelance writerand editor since 2006.
She's also the founder of MaceWriting, her content marketing
consultancy.
But that's not all she does.
After 15 years of seeingfirsthand the benefits freelance
(00:22):
work can have on a person'slife, she launched a second arm
of her business services,specifically created to help her
fellow freelance writers becomemore successful.
Liz offers group and privatecoaching, resource creation, and
she opened the doors to theInkwell community.
One of the things I love aboutLiz is that she's honestly
(00:43):
excited every day to do her jobEven better.
She's made it her mission tohelp other freelancers capture
that same feeling in their lives.
In today's conversation, liz andI take a deep dive into the
tricky topic of rates how to setthem, talking to your clients
about your rates and evendealing with that rate-related
(01:04):
imposter syndrome that grabs usall every once in a while.
Are you ready?
I know I am.
If you're a freelancer,business owner or anyone who
deals with clients, you're inthe right place.
I'm your host, teresa Edmond.
I've been dealing with clientsand running my business for
nearly two decades and in thattime I've dealt with my share of
(01:26):
doubt, imposter syndrome andnot knowing what to say when a
client asked a question I wasn'tready for.
I created this podcast toempower you with the boss
responses you need to grow yourbusiness.
Each week, my guest co-host andI will bring you five episodes
packed with practical insights.
My guest co-host and I willbring you five episodes packed
with practical insights.
Monday through Thursday, weanswer your questions, and
(01:48):
Fridays we dive deep to explorehow our co-hosts embrace their
role as the boss of theirbusiness.
Welcome to Boss Responses.
Thank you, liz.
So much for being here thisweek.
I think it's been a great week.
Yeah, again, thank you forhaving me.
It's been fun.
All right.
(02:09):
So today is a little bit moreabout you, but we're also diving
deep into the topic of ratesand I know this is a contentious
topic and it's also one thatcauses people a lot of stress,
and one of my goals is to helpremove some of that stress with
bus responses.
So let's see if we can do it.
But let's start off.
Tell me a little bit about youand what you do and how you got
into freelancing for my fellowfreelance writers because I love
(02:47):
my job.
Liz Heflin (02:47):
That's probably one of the marquee in neon lights
things to know about me.
I really honestly, truly, I'mjust.
I wake up excited to do my jobevery day, and I know that not
everybody gets to say that andthat's a really big privilege.
So that's great.
Yeah, I love it, I really,really do.
And I was just.
I was one of those people thatalways knew I wanted to be a
writer.
As soon as I could pick up apen, I knew that's what I wanted
(03:09):
to do.
I was sunk so I thought thatmeant novels and fiction, and I
got my bachelor's and mymaster's degree in creative
writing.
But there was always a verypractical part of my brain that
was like that's well and that'sgreat and that's where your
heart is, but like bills arealso going to come every month,
so what are you going to do inthe interim?
And so, as much as I lovefiction and still love fiction
(03:33):
and still do it for myself, Istarted freelancing in college
and it was just a way I said Iknow I'm good at writing, I know
that I can do this and probablya little bit of.
I didn't know what I didn't know.
I just said, yeah, I can startdoing this.
I didn't really think it wasrun.
I didn't think of it as runninga business, even though it
really was what I was doing.
So I started very young and Ijust failed my way forward and
(03:58):
made a lot of mistakes along theway and refined processes and I
was very lucky to get tractionearly.
I got some really great clientsand those really great clients
gave me referrals and I learnedwhat earned me referrals and all
of that good stuff and I wasoff to the races.
So I've been doing this for avery long time and I still just
(04:19):
absolutely love it.
I just love it.
Treasa Edmond (04:23):
I love hearing that.
So now you started as afreelancer just straight out the
door, which a lot of us don'tdo.
That One of the things I see alot of freelancers struggle with
, and not even new ones.
I see people who have beendoing this for 25 years still
struggling with setting rates,especially if they pivot.
But how did you determine yourinitial rates?
(04:43):
And I know we've already talkedabout your dad saying maybe you
should raise your rates untilsomeone says no.
So obviously you didn't do thatat first.
What was your initial process?
Liz Heflin (04:52):
My initial process and I cannot put a big enough
caveat on this that I do notrecommend doing this in your
business.
This is probably the biggestmistake I made across my
business.
I literally said, okay, I don'twant to get some crummy campus
job, I want to just do thesefreelance gigs and see if I can
(05:13):
get some cash coming in.
So I was literally just pricingmyself as what I would have
earned if I was working at theschool library.
So that was minimum wagebasically.
So those first jobs I wastaking, I just said, okay, if I
can make 10 to 15 bucks an hour,I'm good with that.
I do not recommend setting yourrates this way.
(05:36):
I was so young, I had no concept, like I said, even though I had
never really been an employee,I had a lot of employee mindset
principles ingrained in me.
I was always comparing what Icould make in freelance to what
you could make in an office andusing that as a point of
comparison and that's just not arealistic or a healthy way to
(06:02):
set your rates.
So my rate setting journey is alot about making mistakes and
then learning from them.
And it is so funny because Ireally didn't jump into the
freelancing community.
Until about two or three yearsago, in all honesty, I was
completely in a bubble and so Ihad my rates and I thought, oh,
I'm doing so great.
And then, when I jumped ontoLinkedIn, I go oh my gosh, like
(06:27):
I had no idea how much I wasundercharging.
Treasa Edmond (06:30):
No idea.
Liz Heflin (06:31):
I thought I was perfectly happy with the rates I
was making.
I thought I was crushing it.
Treasa Edmond (06:35):
So, jumping forward to today, you're no
longer charging minimum wage.
I am not.
Liz Heflin (06:41):
I'm happy to say I'm the longest working minimum
wage.
Treasa Edmond (06:44):
So you've done this for a while and you
actually you create someteaching tools for people, you
create resources and you coachsome other people.
So what factors do you thinkfreelancers need to consider
when they're setting their ratesright now?
Liz Heflin (06:58):
Such a good question , such a great question.
So my kind of whole thing isit's so helpful to jump into a
community to see what otherpeople are doing, to learn what
kind of industry standards are,but at the end of the day, rates
are a very personal thing andyou have to figure out what
works for you, your business,your life.
So the sort of framework thatI've developed that I tell
(07:20):
people to do is to find yourfloor, which is, of course,
again the name of that course.
The name of that that I'vedeveloped that I tell people to
do is to find your floor, whichis, of course, again the name of
that course, the name of thatebook I created around it, and
it's just a really simpleframework that lets you figure
out what your minimum acceptablerate is.
You set your goals.
(07:40):
It's step one in the kind ofoverarching rate setting process
.
This is finding your absolutefloor.
You're very, very minimum,because I think a big problem is
you get on a call with a client.
You give a number.
They say, well, what about thisnumber, which is obviously
going to be lower, and you havethis moment, this knee jerk oh
yeah, that's fine, or yeah, Icould do that, and it's a very
(08:01):
emotion driven negotiationprocess.
Yeah, I could do that.
And it's a very emotion drivennegotiation process and no good
decisions no good financialdecisions ever come from the
knee jerk.
But yeah, we can make that work.
So this is just a.
This is a system and a way tofigure out line in the sand,
(08:26):
hard and fast number in front ofyou.
This is the minimum I can takeIf I'm doing anything less.
I am working full-time, or thefull number of billable hours
that I can put in my schedule,and I'm making just enough to
live.
Anything below that you areworking full-time and not
earning enough to live Anythingabove it you can consider.
And then again, obviously, yes,this is step one in the
overarching rate setting process.
So it just gives you a littlebit of power in the negotiation,
(08:48):
takes some of the emotion outand you just know OK, this job
is either a maybe or it's just aflat out no.
Treasa Edmond (08:57):
So question here and this is just from the
feedback that you've gotten howmany people have used your tool
and come back to you and said,wow, I was charging way less
than I actually needed to makemy business viable?
Liz Heflin (09:12):
I think people are very surprised by the number
that gets spit out at the end,because you have again and I
think it ties into a lot of whatI was talking about before you
have a sense of okay, this iswhat I would make if I were
doing this job in an office.
This is what constitutes a good, decent salary.
Hey, six figures sounds greatwhen you're in an office, all
(09:34):
those things, and then you dothe hourly on that.
Well, if you're workingfull-time in an office, hourly
is 50 bucks an hour.
To get to six figures, 50 bucksan hour as a freelancer is
probably not going to pay yourbills and I think people are
surprised by that.
I think they do the math andthey go oh my gosh, I didn't
really realize, and part of itis that eight billable client
(09:56):
hours day in, day out isprobably not a sustainable pace.
That's a big piece of itbecause you have to do other
things like promote yourbusiness and answer emails and
do admin and all of the otherthings that aren't billable
client time.
But yeah, I think people are.
They get a number and they gooh my gosh, that's my floor.
That's the minimum I couldcharge and make ends meet.
(10:17):
So yeah, definitely, I thinkthere's some shock.
Treasa Edmond (10:20):
Yeah, and that's the minimum that you can make
hourly, or however you figurethat.
I'm guessing it's hourlybecause I have a minimum
internal hourly rate, but I donot charge hourly because I
don't sell my time and I thinkthat, as freelancers, probably
80% of us should never beselling our time because it's
not about time, it's about theexperience and the expertise and
(10:43):
all of those other things.
It's not about time, it's aboutthe experience and the
expertise and all of those otherthings.
But we also have to look at theindustry and project complexity
and deadlines and all of thosethings and setting rates, which
makes it even more complicatedBecause you have your minimum
internal hourly rate, but hourlyhas nothing to do with the
actual project rate.
So let's talk a little bit aboutsome of those different types
(11:04):
of project rates, because thereare so many ways you can charge
your clients.
Some types of freelancing lendthemselves to hourly, but very
few.
Some are better as projectrates.
Some writers and editors chargeper word, which I've moved away
from that as well.
Value-based pricing all havetheir place, but which do you
(11:24):
think is most beneficial andwhen should freelancers shift to
a different pricing model?
Liz Heflin (11:35):
Yeah, this is again another great, great question.
So when I started I was hourlyand I was probably hourly for so
much longer than I should havebeen, and I know that so much of
that was tied into my own fearthat, oh, if I move to a
different pricing system say aflat fee, a project-based fee
and I way underestimate whatit's going to cost, then I'm out
(11:55):
.
I always had this idea if I'mhourly, at least I'm getting
paid for every minute, everysecond that I put into that
project.
But obviously the longer youwork, the better you get at your
job.
The more you know that client,the more the industry, the
faster and more efficient youget.
You are literally penalizingyourself for being better at
(12:16):
your job when you stick tohourly.
So I am a big proponent ofeither project-based pricing or
value-based pricing, and thereis nuance and difference between
those two.
Yes, but project-based pricingI have eight factors that I
probably won't be able toremember or rattle off the top
of my head, but I know there areeight of them.
(12:37):
And there are eight factorsthat I consider that are going
to contribute to what goes intothat project Writing time,
editing time, researching time,meeting time, admin time, all of
those things and then I do havea target effective hourly rate
that I know internal to mybusiness, and then you can just
multiply it out and then a bigpiece of it too, that a lot of
(13:00):
people forget or don't think todo, that a lot of people forget
or don't think to do, is thateighth category is just
literally a cushion, just abuffer, just for anything
unexpected that's going to comeup in that project, which it
always, always does.
Just add on an extra 15 to 20%for all of the incidentals, all
of every project is going tohappen.
Your computer's going to crashand you lose that paragraph and
(13:23):
you have to rewrite it.
The client comes back with asecond round of revisions that
you weren't expecting.
Some of that can be writteninto scope of the work and
mitigated that way, but there'sjust always going to be things
that you didn't anticipate,didn't expect.
So adding that cushion isreally important to getting that
number, the big, big fan ofthat.
And then value-based pricing ishuge.
(13:45):
It's really good, like you say,with big projects like
ghostwriting, where there can bea really direct line drawn from
project to future revenue forthat client.
They can see the ROI there Ifthey write a book.
White papers are another reallygreat example.
You can write this book.
It launches a really lucrativespeaking career, like whatever
(14:07):
the line from A to B might be.
But clients are typically, as arule of thumb, if you're looking
for hard and fast numbers, theylike to see a 5X return on
their investment.
So for every dollar investedthey want to see $5 earned.
So if you're doing a projectthat has this massive financial
(14:27):
upside for the client, maybeyou're creating a sales landing
sequence for some big ticketoffering and the numbers get big
, the revenue gets big.
Well, guess what?
They're comfortable paying more, a much, much higher rate,
because it's a number, it's abusiness on their side, it's a
business on your side.
They're just looking to see anROI, a decent ROI, off of their
(14:51):
investment.
They're not thinking about youpersonally and them personally.
It's a math problem.
So if you can have a way toestimate, engage, the value of
what you are doing, then you canwork it back and say okay, what
kind of an ROI would they behappy with?
What does that put me rate wiseand you can adjust engage from
there.
Treasa Edmond (15:17):
And I don't estimate engage.
I ask and this is one of thosequestions where that kind of
having a conversation with theclient comes in.
Because if I'm working on awhite paper and I ask them okay,
if this white paper convertsand you get one client out of it
, what is that client worth?
And they say a hundred thousanddollars for one client.
They're not even going toquibble with me charging $20,000
for that white paper and that Iknow there are people who just
cringed and I know there arepeople.
(15:38):
I would never we got all ofthose reactions going on out
there.
And then there are people like Ican charge $20,000 for a white
paper.
I'm doing the wrong thing.
You can't always charge $20,000for a white paper.
There are white papers that are$5,000, period, but if they're
going to get a massive return,then they can.
And the people who are whitepaper experts and this is all
they do and they can prove theirconversions If they're doing a
(16:01):
white paper for a million dollarproject, it's really easy for
them to charge a couple hundredthousand dollars for that paper,
because the value of that paperto the client is immense.
So it all comes down, and thisis why working with your ideal
clients is great.
If you work with a client whodoesn't value your work, you're
not going to get paid for it ornot paid.
Well, if you work with a clientwho sees the value of what you
(16:23):
do, if they see it on paper andif they see it in returns, then
they're never going to questionit.
Liz Heflin (16:30):
Yeah, and that's huge.
And there are so many factorsthat go into that ICP, that
ideal client profile, and someof them are kind of high level,
touchy feely.
Do we get along, do we align onvalues in that way?
But some of them are verypractical Is their business, is
what they're doing, is it goingto warrant paying me the rates
(16:52):
that I would need to charge towork with them?
And if the answer is no, maybethey love what you do, they
really value what you do.
They pay your rates for acouple of months.
But if it doesn't make businesssense, that's going to be a
short-lived relationship.
So if you're looking to chargemore, sometimes, as painful as
change, as comfortable as it canbe, sometimes that ideal client
(17:14):
profile has to shift and changeover time to continue to
accommodate what you're lookingto accomplish.
Treasa Edmond (17:21):
Your ideal client from 10 years ago should not
still be your ideal client today?
Yes, yes exactly.
I mean at all.
Liz Heflin (17:29):
And I think that's something people have to get
comfortable with withinfreelance in general is that the
only constant is change, andyour business, from month to
month, year to year, decade todecade, is going to be different
, and you are going to beconstantly pivoting and changing
.
And if you're not, if you'veplateaued, maybe you've
(17:52):
plateaued at a place that you'rehappy with.
I doubt it, though.
So, getting comfortable withthat constant change, because
it's a part of it, it's part andparcel of it, and that's
looking at your goals andlooking at your finances and
looking at your ideal clientsand all of it.
Treasa Edmond (18:08):
Now I want to point out something that I don't
see a lot of people talkingabout this and I really think
that we should.
And it goes back to thatleaving money on the table thing
, because we can spend and we dospend a lot of time stressing
about our rates and when we'redoing a proposal for a big
project, we spend all of thistime.
Is this rate something that'sgoing to work with the client?
(18:30):
None of that works if you don'tpre-qualify your clients and I
know a lot of people still don'tpre-qualify their clients, and
you should, people you shouldand there are a lot of ways to
do that are not invasive, ifthat's what bothers you.
But you really should never gointo a project and give a rate
until you know what yourclient's budget is, because it
(18:51):
doesn't matter if they're theperson you've waited to work
with for years, if they want topay $500 for something that you
charge $5,000 for, there is noalignment there and you need to
know that.
Also, if it's the person you'vewaited on for years and you
want to charge $500 forsomething that they want to pay
$5,000 for, you need to knowthat too.
(19:12):
So it's one of the questions onmy qualifying questionnaire when
they book a call with me for adiscovery call Questions what
type of project is it?
What deadlines are you lookingfor?
What's your budget for theproject?
Simple, straightforward.
It lets me know whether or notI even need to get on the call
because it wastes their time andyours if it doesn't work.
But it makes me so much moresure when I am sending them the
(19:36):
proposal for the project withthe rate attached, because if I
know that their rate issomewhere between $10,000 and
$15,000 for something, I cansend them a $12,000 rate and
have no doubt that they're goingto accept that if we really
meshed on that call and I thinkthat's huge.
So all of that say we need toknow what our rates should be.
We still need to go through allof this stuff, but if your
(19:56):
client has a budget that'ssignificantly larger than what
you would normally charge thebudget, yes, and part of that is
just the confidence piece.
Liz Heflin (20:05):
It really is.
Yes, like you said, you have togo through the exercise and
know what your target rates areand all of those parameters and
guidelines.
But if somebody comes in andsays I'm going to pay you 10,000
for something that you'retypically charging a thousand
for, it can make people kind offreeze up.
It can make them say, oh, I'mnever going to be able to
deliver $10,000 worth of valueon this project.
(20:27):
And chances are you probablycan and you probably already are
, and you probably exactly yes,if the words I'm talking about
exactly right.
You have been providing thatvalue to your clients all this
time.
You just haven't been chargingfor it.
And that's not to say thatevery client would then
immediately bump to 10,000 andall of that.
It's a nuanced thing at everyangle.
(20:48):
But I think, especially withwriting, for some reason I feel
like it's really easy for peopleto minimize it, to dismiss it,
to forget how much value, howhard it is, and how much value
they're really providing,because I think it's something a
lot of us are just good at,always been good at, it's always
been our strength, so it's easyto forget that.
(21:09):
For most people.
This is difficult.
It's hard and there's so muchbuyer psychology that goes into
it and just on it, so muchnuance that goes into anything
written on the page for abusiness, and it's easy to
forget all of that knowledgethat you have accrued and gained
over the years and how valuablethat is to companies.
Treasa Edmond (21:32):
I can't even tell you how many projects I've sent
to clients and I'm like man, Iwish I'd had another five days
to work on that.
I could have made it better.
And they will respond backimmediately and say this is
wonderful, We've tried to havefive in-house people do it.
No one could hit this mark.
Five in-house people do it noone could hit this mark.
Just because you hold yourselfto a specific level doesn't mean
your clients are, becausethey're usually about five steps
(21:54):
behind you.
Yes, 100%.
So you have existing clients,you've reached that mark, you're
charging what you think is apretty fair rate and then it's
time to raise rates, which howmany people do you talk to that
are like I haven't raised myrates in 10 years, yeah, yeah.
So how do you recommend or howdo you approach raising rates
(22:15):
with existing clients?
Are there any specificstrategies or timings that you
think work out best for thatconversation and people?
That should be a conversation.
It shouldn't be just a simpleemail saying my rates are going
up as of this day to this amountbe just a simple email saying
my rates are going up as of thisday to this amount.
Liz Heflin (22:33):
Yeah, sure, yeah, the raising your rates on an
existing client can be one ofthe most uncomfortable
conversations you have as afreelancer because things are
going well.
You don't want to rock the boat.
You're not sure what they'regoing to say.
You don't want to lose thatclient.
So, as you say, it has to be aconversation.
And I think a pillar of clienttrust is that open communication
(22:54):
, just the ability.
If you have a client who youcan confidently open a
conversation with and you knowthat it's going to be a
respectful back and forth,that's a client you don't want
to let go because you'll be ableto work through a lot of
hiccups and problems togetherbecause you're seeing eye to eye
on things.
So it is always if you've had areally big win with a client
(23:17):
that's particularly happy withyou in the moment, that can be a
nice time to broach the subject.
It doesn't have to be, but ifthey're already inclined to go
yeah, we just landed that$400,000 project the client came
in through a Google search andfound this article and then
contacted us.
Yeah, maybe that's a good timeto approach the subject I do.
(23:39):
Also, as part of theconversation, I like to let them
know that there will be a bitof a timeframe before that rate
kicks into place, so that givesthem time to get their ducks in
a row.
They can do some budgeting,shuffling around if need be, so
not just saying bam, rates aregoing to change.
As of this.
(23:59):
Email is important because it'sagain, it's a business and they
might need to do some shufflingand some adjusting to make it
all work.
Moving forward, and some of myclients I have had for 10, 12
years now, and I and I startedat a very low rate with them and
over the years I have graduallyincreased to my rates today and
(24:23):
they've been able to come withme at every step, partially
because they've been gainingclients and work off of the
content foundation that we'vebuilt together and just the
trust is there.
They can't I don't want to putwords in their mouth but they
can't imagine working withanybody else because we've been
working together forever.
I know them inside and out.
(24:44):
I know their tone of voice, Iknow their audience, I know all
of these nuances and ins andouts that make their content
work for them.
So I think there's also aninclination to want to go for
the jugular and go for the bignumbers right out of the gates.
But there's also something tobe said for starting at rates
that are quote, unquotereasonable and building with a
(25:08):
client over time, because that'sbeen one of my strong,
wonderful, rewarding, fun anchorclients for years and they've
been a big part of myfreelancing journey and a big
part of what's made itsustainable.
I'm all for charging your value, but also don't expect to get
pro rates the first day thatyou're out there freelancing
Right, and it is a value andyour value grows as you learn.
Treasa Edmond (25:31):
So you are significantly more value to that
client now than you were thenbecause you bring so much more
to the table and that level ofexpertise and that ease and the
fact that they can probably sendyou a project and you just send
it back.
Liz Heflin (25:44):
There's no back and forth.
There's no.
Let's hammer this out.
Treasa Edmond (25:47):
That is valuable to a client in so many more ways
than we can realize, because itsolves pain points for them
that we don't even know exist,and that's a big thing.
Liz Heflin (25:59):
Absolutely.
There is real dollars and centsattached to every minute that
they have to spend dealing withthe back and forth of a piece of
content.
If it's easy and seamless andjust takes it off their plate,
there's real practical value inthat.
Treasa Edmond (26:15):
And I want to point out here and I'm pretty
sure Liz is going to agree withthis there's a big difference
between charging your valuewhere you are now even if you're
starting out new and thenworking your way up and starting
at content mill prices andexpecting your client to work up
, because those I'm sorry, thoseclients are never going to work
(26:36):
their way up.
They're always going to be ableto find a thousand people that
they can pay for $25 for anarticle.
Just don't Recognize that youhave a minimum viable value,
which is where it comes insetting your bottom rate.
You need to do that.
So don't backtrack and sellyourself short to get a client,
(26:59):
because if you do one, you'regoing to completely never
respect that client and you aregoing to get massive resentment
built up because you're going tobe like you're paying me $25
less an hour than I need to paymy bills and you're still just
picking at everything I do.
That's not a client you want,you just don't.
(27:20):
So you have your rate set.
You've done all of this hardmental work.
You're comfortable with whereyou are.
This is difficult.
This is an area that I strugglewith even now, and I've been
doing this for 20 years.
Now You're talking to a clientabout their project and let's
say you've qualified them evenso, you know that they have
budget for this.
(27:41):
You send them your rate forthat project and they push back.
They want to bargain you down,or they are like we said our
budget was $10,000, but wereally only want to pay $5,000.
Whatever that is, how do yourecommend handling those?
And I say rate negotiations Inegotiate scope.
I never negotiate rate.
(28:02):
I will negotiate scope.
I never negotiate rate.
But I hear a lot of peopletalking about rate negotiations
and you've said it, so I want toclarify that.
So how do you negotiatewhatever you negotiate with
clients who push back on yourpricing?
Liz Heflin (28:24):
That's a perfect point and exactly what I wanted
to say.
Yes, scope negotiation versusrate negotiation is huge,
because the second you startchipping away at that rate is
when you start to feel devalued.
And even if you're ostensiblyhappy at the rate you end up at
because you got chipped awaydown, it just feels different.
Yes, if they say our budget isthis, then I let them know how
many deliverables will fit intothat at the rate that I'm
(28:47):
comfortable charging.
They say they want eight blogsfor X amount of dollars and I'm
not happy with that per articlerate.
Well then, maybe four worksbased on whatever my projected
rate would be.
So yes, I absolutely willnegotiate on scope.
That's the perfect way to putit Scope negotiation versus rate
negotiation, absolutely.
Treasa Edmond (29:07):
And you know I've had a lot of clients who have
come back to me and said we'dreally like to reduce it to this
amount so that we have morecushion in our budget.
And when I respond back withsure I can work with that rate,
but I'm going to have to reducethe scope, so we're going to
have to take out either this orthis.
It's amazing how often theyfind that they actually have
(29:29):
room in their budget becausethey don't want to give anything
up.
And this is not.
Once again, it's not personal.
They're not devaluing you oryour work.
It's their job to save theircompany money.
And if they can ballpark you afigure and you just take it,
then you're helping them savetheir company money.
You're not making money foryour company, so think about
(29:49):
that.
But here's one, liz.
So say I'm a client and I'mwanting you to write a blog post
that you have said is going tobe $1,000, which is a very fair
rate for that project, and I geta little bit nasty and I'm like
I just don't get it.
I could get that for $100 onUpwork.
How do you respond to asituation like that?
(30:09):
Because that is personal.
Liz Heflin (30:13):
That does feel very personal and I will say I've
been very lucky in my business.
I really haven't encounteredthat kind of an attitude very
much and I put that down toworking with the right kind of
clients.
That's a big piece of it.
But yeah, that's the pointwhere I would just say that's a
massive flag for me.
That would be a disqualifyingcomment for me.
(30:35):
I would just say you know what?
This probably isn't going to bea good fit because a client who
has that attitude, that attitudeis going to show up in other
ways and it is going to affecthow long the project takes and
how happy they are with it,which is probably going to be
not very, even if you'redelivering super high quality
work.
And that kind of a statement isjust indicative of a much
(30:59):
bigger problem.
And I know, again, in thislandscape it's hard to even
fathom turning work away becausethis idea that something is
better than nothing, sometimesnothing is better than something
, If that something is going tojust be a total drain on your
time, your mental energy, goingto just be a total drain on your
(31:20):
time, your mental energy, howgood you feel about the work
that gets done, all of thesethings that have a real
practical impact.
So, yeah, you have to know whatyour deal breakers are, but a
comment like that for me wouldbe a deal breaker.
Treasa Edmond (31:31):
We talk about red flags a lot and I know that
there've been several red flagconversations in the past where
how many red flags are too many?
There are red walls for me andthose are deal breakers and if
they do this thing, I will notwork with them, and this is one
of those for me.
If they get snarky or nastyabout my rate which I've worked
(31:52):
very hard to set and I know myvalue I immediately send off a
very professional, very niceemail.
In any other situation I wouldoffer to refer them on.
If they hit that one, I don't.
I just say it looks like thisproject isn't a good fit for my
business right now, but I wishyou all the best.
Thank you for yourconsideration, teresa.
That's it.
(32:12):
There's no room for moreconversation and yeah, it's, and
sometimes it is it.
Liz Heflin (32:18):
Everything is dependent on the situation.
Sometimes it is just a clientwho doesn't really understand
the landscape and it's just isjust needs some kind of
education about how freelancerscharge and you can feel that in
your bones, the way thatsomething is said.
If, whether it's a differencebetween this is just going to be
a nasty, unpleasant person towork with versus somebody who's
(32:40):
like, well, why is it thatexpensive?
I saw this other personcharging a lot less.
I don't understand thediscrepancy.
Those are two very differentsentences.
One's a very legitimate question, the other one is a personal
hit and people like to say thisbut no is also a complete
sentence.
You don't have to justifyyourself to that person.
Doesn't have to be a whole bigthing.
(33:03):
If you get a vibe like this,person is going to be a toxic
client for you.
That's going to cause problemsfor you.
It is.
It is more than okay to justsay I'm so sorry.
This isn't a good fit at thistime.
Treasa Edmond (33:15):
I believe and this is part of the rates
conversation because there aretimes you do not want to engage
in a conversation because it'snot going to go anywhere, and
it's okay to build that boundaryand say, no, this is not a
conversation I'm going toparticipate in, thank you for
your interest, end, that's it,you don't have to do anything
(33:36):
else.
And that that can cause anxiety.
And then we also have internalrate anxiety.
So let's talk about impostersyndrome, because this is the
topic everyone loves to hate,right?
So what advice do you have forfreelancers who struggle with
confidence and charging theirdesired rates?
So, are there any mindsetshifts or practices you
(33:56):
recommend?
Liz Heflin (33:58):
Yeah, a couple, and this is a hard one because, just
like freelancing, is specificto each person.
How they operate, how you getover mental hurdles, is very
personal to you.
There.
I wish there were a confidencewand that I could just bop
people on the head and magicallynow they're okay with their
rates forever.
But obviously that doesn'texist.
(34:19):
So it's a very in a lot of waysit's a very personal question.
You have to figure out whatworks for you.
But I think a big piece of itcan honestly be throwing
yourself into community.
And I say this again, this kindof my fallback answer, because
I've seen the benefits in somany different ways.
When you immerse yourself withother people who do what you do,
(34:40):
who understand what you'regoing through, you can
commiserate with.
Having that support can bereally transformative.
It's really powerful.
It's not something to bedismissed or taken lightly.
When you're running a businessof one, you don't always have
somebody to turn to.
There isn't always a coworkerto ask an opinion of.
(35:01):
So when you build thatcommunity and support system for
yourself, it can help alleviatesome of those mental demons
that we all battle, no matterhow long you've been doing this,
no matter how skilled you arehow confident you are.
I guarantee those contentcreators that you look up to
they are dealing with this onsome end of the spectrum as well
(35:24):
.
So I think that's important toois talking about it, knowing
everybody's dealing with it tovarying degrees and having that
support network.
Again, you kind of forget howgood you are at things because
you do it all the time.
It's just part of what you do.
When you get out there and youstart talking to people, you
remember okay, I am a part ofthis community, I do have a
(35:44):
voice, I do have a place here.
So that can help alleviate someof it.
Treasa Edmond (35:48):
And there's a great deal of encouragement that
comes from encouraging otherpeople.
And Liz is talking aboutnetworking and building your
community and I know that freaksout a lot of introverts and
when she's talking about thatshe's not saying you have to
join a community of 20,000people and talk to all of them.
You can find two or threepeople that you really mesh well
with.
Start a baby mastermind it'sstill a mastermind.
(36:11):
Meet regularly, talk to them,talk about your concerns and the
issues that you have.
Run your rates by them Say Ihave this project coming up and
I'm going to do this thing.
If there's an area that you'restruggling with and you bond
with those people and form arelationship, they become really
valuable feedback in your life.
And then that feedback loopbecause it's reciprocated, you
(36:35):
don't ever want to go into acommunity or build a community
and just take yes 100%.
Liz Heflin (36:41):
That's kind of the foundational principle that if
you go in with a transactionalmindset, if you're just thinking
what can I get, what can I get,what can I get, you are going
to get nothing out of it.
That's just kind of the way itis.
If you go in with a genuinedesire to offer what you can and
to provide the support that youcan provide, provide the
(37:03):
insight you can provide, all ofthose things that is going to
come back on you tenfold.
It's just the way it works.
Treasa Edmond (37:11):
Intent matters too.
So you can't go into acommunity determined to foist
your opinions on everyone else.
You need to intend to offervalue and not ram things down
people's throats.
Offer value by all means,answer the question.
But if you answer a questiondifferent from the other 50
people that answer the questionand you are in one of those
(37:31):
larger communities, it's notyour job to go through and
respond to every one of thoseother responses and refute them.
That's not the purpose.
The purpose is offer youropinion and then, when you ask a
question, people are going tooffer you a variety of opinions
(37:58):
too.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutelyyes.
Can't talk up community ingeneral, whatever it means to
you, whatever it looks like toyou enough where you're
undercharging, unless otherpeople are transparent about
their rates.
And I'm not talking humblebragging, and I'm not talking
outright bragging and I'm nottalking setting unreasonable
expectations.
And this comes back tosomething that we talked about
(38:19):
earlier that I said I was goingto bring up when you're setting
your rates and I know Liz's toolgoes into this, and I want
everyone to be so, so clear onthis.
When someone says that they'remaking $600 an hour doing
writing, they might actually bemaking $600 an hour for their
client work, but I can guaranteethat does not translate to $600
(38:39):
an hour, to the time they'respending on and in their
business.
So share your rates, but sharethem transparently and put
qualifiers in there.
So say, yeah, I make $300 anhour minimum writing.
I do, that's absolutely.
But I don't make $300 a minimumwhen I amortize that out
(39:02):
because I'm spending a lot ofhours marketing my business and
that brings my rate down.
I'm just very careful to notlet that drop below that minimum
, that threshold.
Liz Heflin (39:11):
Yeah, I think if you look at the broader context of
the people who are saying thethings about their rates, you
can get a lot of insight intosort of the legitimacy of what
they're doing, Cause if they'retrying to sell you something and
they're trying to sell you onthe idea that you can make $600
an hour and buy this Lamborghiniand live in this mansion,
(39:32):
whatever, some red flags, somealarm bells are probably going
off.
But if somebody is a trustedmember of the community,
somebody you know, somebodylikes, somebody you trust,
somebody whose opinion you value, and you're having a really
honest, frank, nuanceddiscussion about rates, again
it's a very differentconversation.
Treasa Edmond (39:51):
So having the full context is always helpful.
Liz Heflin (39:54):
The reason, one of the big reasons that I say
jumping into LinkedIn, jumpinginto community, was the biggest
game changer in my business, isbecause I didn't even realize
what was possible with freelance.
It changed so many of mymindsets about money, about how
to charge, how to earn, how tostructure contracts, how to
(40:16):
continuously earn off the samepiece of collateral, how one
piece of work can continuouslyearn you money.
These were just things that Iwasn't thinking about in my
business until I immersed myselfin it.
Until I immersed myself in itand when I joined I wasn't
making those kinds of figures,but it opened my eyes to what
(40:40):
was possible.
And before long I was kind ofsurprised to open my eyes and go
oh my God, like I'm part of thepeople who are making those
rates now, and it sneaks up onyou sometimes.
Treasa Edmond (40:45):
And I think it's.
I think part of it too ispeople are it takes up on you
sometimes and I think it's, Ithink part of it too is people
are.
Liz Heflin (40:57):
They don't want to be seen as braggadocious or
whatever, so it's hard for themto just go out there and post
their wins, tent matters, butit's important to do.
It's just as we.
Every conversation should benuanced negative and positive,
and I and you need to see bothsides to get the full picture,
cause I think right now,especially for people who are
starting out, it's really easyto look at the overarching
conversation and just say, oh,freelance isn't sustainable
(41:18):
right now and they quit on it.
Yeah, and seeing that it ispossible to succeed, and in
really exciting ways, is animportant piece of that
conversation that shouldn't bestifled or self-censored.
Treasa Edmond (41:31):
And realize that these people didn't get there
overnight.
They worked hard, they builttheir networks, they've built
their referrals, they've doneall of those things.
It tells you what's possibleand it gives you an idea of what
to work toward.
It's not.
This is a milestone you need tomeet right now, because that's
just that's not feasible andmaybe it's not a milestone you
(41:51):
ever need to meet.
Liz Heflin (41:52):
I mean, there are lots of people who get into
freelance because they have, youknow, children or aging parents
or any kind of other multipleresponsibilities, and what they
want, what success looks likefor them, is something where
they can make X amount thatcovers these bills and they only
have to work two, three hours aday.
(42:12):
Whatever the numbers of thesituation might be Part of
hearing what's possible too, isthe mental fortitude hearing it
without going, oh I need to goafter that shiny object, that
shiny benchmark, or, on theother side, not getting so
discouraged because you're notthere yet.
So it's a big mental game, butif you can learn what's out
there and then put on blindersand run your own race, that's
(42:34):
where the gold happens.
That's where the good stuff.
Treasa Edmond (42:36):
Yeah, five years ago, when people started really
talking about the six-figurefreelancer, I'm like, yeah, I
don't need to do that and itdidn't bother me.
But then I started looking atthe bottom line, my foundational
rates, and I'm like, no, Iactually do need to do that,
because by the time I pay taxesand all of my expenses and I've
got all of these other thingsand this is what I want to do
(42:57):
and I want to go on a trip ayear.
That actually is kind of myminimum income.
Take what works for you andleave the rest.
Okay, so you've talked a littlebit as we've gone along this
week about a couple of theresources you have, and I know
you have a lot of great ones outthere.
Are there any specific ones youwant to share with the Boss
Responses community?
Liz Heflin (43:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Back in February I did launch acommunity.
I've talked a lot aboutcommunity on this episode, but
yeah, I launched a subscriptioncommunity exclusively for
freelance writers.
It's called the Inkwell and itis a repository of resources and
coaching and then just thebuilt-in support and motivation
(43:34):
and educational piece that youget in kind of this smaller safe
space.
If LinkedIn feels a littleoverwhelming because it's too
many people and you don't feellike you can openly ask
questions, this is a small safespace of people who really get
you, get your industry, get allthe nuance around it.
So always plug in the inkwell.
That's really near and dear tomy heart.
And then I do have I mentionedit briefly the find your floor
(43:58):
course which will help youdetermine that minimum rate for
you.
There's a video course.
It walks you through why it'seven important, what some of the
factors are that go into it.
And then there's a pricing toolso you just basically put in
your numbers.
There's some technical mumbojumbo that happens in the
background and magically anumber spits out and you get
(44:19):
your minimum hourly rate.
And then there's a wholesection about how to convert
hourly to other pricing modelsif you're doing other pricing
models.
But yeah, that's available too.
And it's step one in the ratesetting process in my mind is
getting to that minimum rate, sothat's available too.
And it's step one in the ratesetting process in my mind is
getting to that minimum rate, sothat's out there as well.
Treasa Edmond (44:33):
Yep, that's the foundation of a successful
business, I think.
So I'll have links to yoursocial and to these resources in
the show notes, but if someonewants to find you online, where
would they go?
Liz Heflin (44:44):
I'm always on LinkedIn probably too much.
You can find me there always.
So yeah, just Liz Heflin,you'll find me on LinkedIn.
And then if you want to send mean email, you can just do Liz
L-I-Z at Liz Heflin dot com.
Treasa Edmond (44:57):
Simple and easy to get there, all right.
One last question, liz whatadvice would you give to service
providers looking to createlasting, successful partnerships
with their clients?
Liz Heflin (45:07):
Yeah, this is another great question.
These are gold questions.
I have really built my businesson the back of sustained,
successful partnerships with myclients and I feel like I got
there by clearing a couple ofhurdles that seem really basic,
but somehow a lot of people falldown on them.
Not over-promising andunder-delivering, making sure
(45:30):
expectations are always veryrealistic, especially around
results and revenue.
Especially in something likecontent.
It can be a bit of a build.
You have to invest before theSEO starts to pay off.
Providing that education piece,making sure they understand very
realistically what to expect ishuge.
And then just meeting deadlinesevery time, treating them as
(45:54):
like ironclad agreements.
And obviously life happens.
Nobody is perfect.
Things come up, but if youproactively communicate with
them throughout the process, youcan.
You're not going to springanything on them.
If you see a roadblock downdown the road, go, I don't know,
(46:14):
this thing might come up andthen I don't know if I can meet
my deadline.
It's so much better to reachout and just say, hey, this
potential thing is going to getin the way of this deadline and
then, if it doesn't happen,great.
If it does happen, they have aheads up.
So that open communication isreally key and knowing what
clients want, which is just adrama-free, easy, pleasant
(46:40):
experience that also yieldsresults.
If you can tick all of thoseboxes, if you can be pleasant to
work with, then the work ishigh quality.
Consistently, you're meetingyour deadlines and then also, as
a practical bonus, it's working, the process is working and
bringing in the revenue itshould.
(47:00):
That client will never, everwant to let you go, because why
would they?
And I think we tend tounderestimate how hard it is to
find and implement and put intoplace a good freelancer.
There's so many people outthere who are doing it, but it
is hard to find somebody who's agood fit in all of those ways.
Yeah, that's my formula forkeeping clients happy and it
(47:22):
hasn't let me fall down yet.
Treasa Edmond (47:25):
So that was just over a minute.
I think, folks, if you want torewind that and listen to that
again, maybe take some notes,because you should.
So, liz, I think this isprobably going to go down as one
of my favorite weeks of theBoss Responses podcast ever.
I loved every day of theconversation.
It's been absolutely amazing.
So thank you so much for all ofyour time and energy and for
(47:46):
just being here and for feedingback into the community.
Liz Heflin (47:49):
Of course, no, I'm so glad you asked.
This was great.
I love doing these kinds ofthings and I had a blast All
right, that was the week withLiz.
Treasa Edmond (47:58):
I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
Come back next week for anentirely new guest host.
Welcome back to the Boss Responses podcast.
It's day five with our guestfor the week, the fantastic Liz
Heflin.
Liz has been a freelance writerand editor since 2006.
She's also the founder of MaceWriting, her content marketing
consultancy.
But that's not all she does.
After 15 years of seeingfirsthand the benefits freelance
(00:22):
work can have on a person'slife, she launched a second arm
of her business services,specifically created to help her
fellow freelance writers becomemore successful.
Liz offers group and privatecoaching, resource creation, and
she opened the doors to theInkwell community.
One of the things I love aboutLiz is that she's honestly
(00:43):
excited every day to do her jobEven better.
She's made it her mission tohelp other freelancers capture
that same feeling in their lives.
In today's conversation, liz andI take a deep dive into the
tricky topic of rates how to setthem, talking to your clients
about your rates and evendealing with that rate-related
(01:04):
imposter syndrome that grabs usall every once in a while.
Are you ready?
I know I am.
If you're a freelancer,business owner or anyone who
deals with clients, you're inthe right place.
I'm your host, teresa Edmond.
I've been dealing with clientsand running my business for
nearly two decades and in thattime I've dealt with my share of
(01:26):
doubt, imposter syndrome andnot knowing what to say when a
client asked a question I wasn'tready for.
I created this podcast toempower you with the boss
responses you need to grow yourbusiness.
Each week, my guest co-host andI will bring you five episodes
packed with practical insights.
My guest co-host and I willbring you five episodes packed
with practical insights.
Monday through Thursday, weanswer your questions, and
(01:48):
Fridays we dive deep to explorehow our co-hosts embrace their
role as the boss of theirbusiness.
Welcome to Boss Responses.
Thank you, liz.
So much for being here thisweek.
I think it's been a great week.
Yeah, again, thank you forhaving me.
It's been fun.
All right.
(02:09):
So today is a little bit moreabout you, but we're also diving
deep into the topic of ratesand I know this is a contentious
topic and it's also one thatcauses people a lot of stress,
and one of my goals is to helpremove some of that stress with
bus responses.
So let's see if we can do it.
But let's start off.
Tell me a little bit about youand what you do and how you got
into freelancing for my fellowfreelance writers because I love
(02:47):
my job.
Liz Heflin (02:47):
That's probably one of the marquee in neon lights
things to know about me.
I really honestly, truly, I'mjust.
I wake up excited to do my jobevery day, and I know that not
everybody gets to say that andthat's a really big privilege.
So that's great.
Yeah, I love it, I really,really do.
And I was just.
I was one of those people thatalways knew I wanted to be a
writer.
As soon as I could pick up apen, I knew that's what I wanted
(03:09):
to do.
I was sunk so I thought thatmeant novels and fiction, and I
got my bachelor's and mymaster's degree in creative
writing.
But there was always a verypractical part of my brain that
was like that's well and that'sgreat and that's where your
heart is, but like bills arealso going to come every month,
so what are you going to do inthe interim?
And so, as much as I lovefiction and still love fiction
(03:33):
and still do it for myself, Istarted freelancing in college
and it was just a way I said Iknow I'm good at writing, I know
that I can do this and probablya little bit of.
I didn't know what I didn't know.
I just said, yeah, I can startdoing this.
I didn't really think it wasrun.
I didn't think of it as runninga business, even though it
really was what I was doing.
So I started very young and Ijust failed my way forward and
(03:58):
made a lot of mistakes along theway and refined processes and I
was very lucky to get tractionearly.
I got some really great clientsand those really great clients
gave me referrals and I learnedwhat earned me referrals and all
of that good stuff and I wasoff to the races.
So I've been doing this for avery long time and I still just
(04:19):
absolutely love it.
I just love it.
Treasa Edmond (04:23):
I love hearing that.
So now you started as afreelancer just straight out the
door, which a lot of us don'tdo.
That One of the things I see alot of freelancers struggle with
, and not even new ones.
I see people who have beendoing this for 25 years still
struggling with setting rates,especially if they pivot.
But how did you determine yourinitial rates?
(04:43):
And I know we've already talkedabout your dad saying maybe you
should raise your rates untilsomeone says no.
So obviously you didn't do thatat first.
What was your initial process?
Liz Heflin (04:52):
My initial process and I cannot put a big enough
caveat on this that I do notrecommend doing this in your
business.
This is probably the biggestmistake I made across my
business.
I literally said, okay, I don'twant to get some crummy campus
job, I want to just do thesefreelance gigs and see if I can
(05:13):
get some cash coming in.
So I was literally just pricingmyself as what I would have
earned if I was working at theschool library.
So that was minimum wagebasically.
So those first jobs I wastaking, I just said, okay, if I
can make 10 to 15 bucks an hour,I'm good with that.
I do not recommend setting yourrates this way.
(05:36):
I was so young, I had no concept, like I said, even though I had
never really been an employee,I had a lot of employee mindset
principles ingrained in me.
I was always comparing what Icould make in freelance to what
you could make in an office andusing that as a point of
comparison and that's just not arealistic or a healthy way to
(06:02):
set your rates.
So my rate setting journey is alot about making mistakes and
then learning from them.
And it is so funny because Ireally didn't jump into the
freelancing community.
Until about two or three yearsago, in all honesty, I was
completely in a bubble and so Ihad my rates and I thought, oh,
I'm doing so great.
And then, when I jumped ontoLinkedIn, I go oh my gosh, like
(06:27):
I had no idea how much I wasundercharging.
Treasa Edmond (06:30):
No idea.
Liz Heflin (06:31):
I thought I was perfectly happy with the rates I
was making.
I thought I was crushing it.
Treasa Edmond (06:35):
So, jumping forward to today, you're no
longer charging minimum wage.
I am not.
Liz Heflin (06:41):
I'm happy to say I'm the longest working minimum
wage.
Treasa Edmond (06:44):
So you've done this for a while and you
actually you create someteaching tools for people, you
create resources and you coachsome other people.
So what factors do you thinkfreelancers need to consider
when they're setting their ratesright now?
Liz Heflin (06:58):
Such a good question , such a great question.
So my kind of whole thing isit's so helpful to jump into a
community to see what otherpeople are doing, to learn what
kind of industry standards are,but at the end of the day, rates
are a very personal thing andyou have to figure out what
works for you, your business,your life.
So the sort of framework thatI've developed that I tell
(07:20):
people to do is to find yourfloor, which is, of course,
again the name of that course.
The name of that that I'vedeveloped that I tell people to
do is to find your floor, whichis, of course, again the name of
that course, the name of thatebook I created around it, and
it's just a really simpleframework that lets you figure
out what your minimum acceptablerate is.
You set your goals.
(07:40):
It's step one in the kind ofoverarching rate setting process
.
This is finding your absolutefloor.
You're very, very minimum,because I think a big problem is
you get on a call with a client.
You give a number.
They say, well, what about thisnumber, which is obviously
going to be lower, and you havethis moment, this knee jerk oh
yeah, that's fine, or yeah, Icould do that, and it's a very
(08:01):
emotion driven negotiationprocess.
Yeah, I could do that.
And it's a very emotion drivennegotiation process and no good
decisions no good financialdecisions ever come from the
knee jerk.
But yeah, we can make that work.
So this is just a.
This is a system and a way tofigure out line in the sand,
(08:26):
hard and fast number in front ofyou.
This is the minimum I can takeIf I'm doing anything less.
I am working full-time, or thefull number of billable hours
that I can put in my schedule,and I'm making just enough to
live.
Anything below that you areworking full-time and not
earning enough to live Anythingabove it you can consider.
And then again, obviously, yes,this is step one in the
overarching rate setting process.
So it just gives you a littlebit of power in the negotiation,
(08:48):
takes some of the emotion outand you just know OK, this job
is either a maybe or it's just aflat out no.
Treasa Edmond (08:57):
So question here and this is just from the
feedback that you've gotten howmany people have used your tool
and come back to you and said,wow, I was charging way less
than I actually needed to makemy business viable?
Liz Heflin (09:12):
I think people are very surprised by the number
that gets spit out at the end,because you have again and I
think it ties into a lot of whatI was talking about before you
have a sense of okay, this iswhat I would make if I were
doing this job in an office.
This is what constitutes a good, decent salary.
Hey, six figures sounds greatwhen you're in an office, all
(09:34):
those things, and then you dothe hourly on that.
Well, if you're workingfull-time in an office, hourly
is 50 bucks an hour.
To get to six figures, 50 bucksan hour as a freelancer is
probably not going to pay yourbills and I think people are
surprised by that.
I think they do the math andthey go oh my gosh, I didn't
really realize, and part of itis that eight billable client
(09:56):
hours day in, day out isprobably not a sustainable pace.
That's a big piece of itbecause you have to do other
things like promote yourbusiness and answer emails and
do admin and all of the otherthings that aren't billable
client time.
But yeah, I think people are.
They get a number and they gooh my gosh, that's my floor.
That's the minimum I couldcharge and make ends meet.
(10:17):
So yeah, definitely, I thinkthere's some shock.
Treasa Edmond (10:20):
Yeah, and that's the minimum that you can make
hourly, or however you figurethat.
I'm guessing it's hourlybecause I have a minimum
internal hourly rate, but I donot charge hourly because I
don't sell my time and I thinkthat, as freelancers, probably
80% of us should never beselling our time because it's
not about time, it's about theexperience and the expertise and
(10:43):
all of those other things.
It's not about time, it's aboutthe experience and the
expertise and all of those otherthings.
But we also have to look at theindustry and project complexity
and deadlines and all of thosethings and setting rates, which
makes it even more complicatedBecause you have your minimum
internal hourly rate, but hourlyhas nothing to do with the
actual project rate.
So let's talk a little bit aboutsome of those different types
(11:04):
of project rates, because thereare so many ways you can charge
your clients.
Some types of freelancing lendthemselves to hourly, but very
few.
Some are better as projectrates.
Some writers and editors chargeper word, which I've moved away
from that as well.
Value-based pricing all havetheir place, but which do you
(11:24):
think is most beneficial andwhen should freelancers shift to
a different pricing model?
Liz Heflin (11:35):
Yeah, this is again another great, great question.
So when I started I was hourlyand I was probably hourly for so
much longer than I should havebeen, and I know that so much of
that was tied into my own fearthat, oh, if I move to a
different pricing system say aflat fee, a project-based fee
and I way underestimate whatit's going to cost, then I'm out
(11:55):
.
I always had this idea if I'mhourly, at least I'm getting
paid for every minute, everysecond that I put into that
project.
But obviously the longer youwork, the better you get at your
job.
The more you know that client,the more the industry, the
faster and more efficient youget.
You are literally penalizingyourself for being better at
(12:16):
your job when you stick tohourly.
So I am a big proponent ofeither project-based pricing or
value-based pricing, and thereis nuance and difference between
those two.
Yes, but project-based pricingI have eight factors that I
probably won't be able toremember or rattle off the top
of my head, but I know there areeight of them.
(12:37):
And there are eight factorsthat I consider that are going
to contribute to what goes intothat project Writing time,
editing time, researching time,meeting time, admin time, all of
those things and then I do havea target effective hourly rate
that I know internal to mybusiness, and then you can just
multiply it out and then a bigpiece of it too, that a lot of
(13:00):
people forget or don't think todo, that a lot of people forget
or don't think to do, is thateighth category is just
literally a cushion, just abuffer, just for anything
unexpected that's going to comeup in that project, which it
always, always does.
Just add on an extra 15 to 20%for all of the incidentals, all
of every project is going tohappen.
Your computer's going to crashand you lose that paragraph and
(13:23):
you have to rewrite it.
The client comes back with asecond round of revisions that
you weren't expecting.
Some of that can be writteninto scope of the work and
mitigated that way, but there'sjust always going to be things
that you didn't anticipate,didn't expect.
So adding that cushion isreally important to getting that
number, the big, big fan ofthat.
And then value-based pricing ishuge.
(13:45):
It's really good, like you say,with big projects like
ghostwriting, where there can bea really direct line drawn from
project to future revenue forthat client.
They can see the ROI there Ifthey write a book.
White papers are another reallygreat example.
You can write this book.
It launches a really lucrativespeaking career, like whatever
(14:07):
the line from A to B might be.
But clients are typically, as arule of thumb, if you're looking
for hard and fast numbers, theylike to see a 5X return on
their investment.
So for every dollar investedthey want to see $5 earned.
So if you're doing a projectthat has this massive financial
(14:27):
upside for the client, maybeyou're creating a sales landing
sequence for some big ticketoffering and the numbers get big
, the revenue gets big.
Well, guess what?
They're comfortable paying more, a much, much higher rate,
because it's a number, it's abusiness on their side, it's a
business on your side.
They're just looking to see anROI, a decent ROI, off of their
(14:51):
investment.
They're not thinking about youpersonally and them personally.
It's a math problem.
So if you can have a way toestimate, engage, the value of
what you are doing, then you canwork it back and say okay, what
kind of an ROI would they behappy with?
What does that put me rate wiseand you can adjust engage from
there.
Treasa Edmond (15:17):
And I don't estimate engage.
I ask and this is one of thosequestions where that kind of
having a conversation with theclient comes in.
Because if I'm working on awhite paper and I ask them okay,
if this white paper convertsand you get one client out of it
, what is that client worth?
And they say a hundred thousanddollars for one client.
They're not even going toquibble with me charging $20,000
for that white paper and that Iknow there are people who just
cringed and I know there arepeople.
(15:38):
I would never we got all ofthose reactions going on out
there.
And then there are people like Ican charge $20,000 for a white
paper.
I'm doing the wrong thing.
You can't always charge $20,000for a white paper.
There are white papers that are$5,000, period, but if they're
going to get a massive return,then they can.
And the people who are whitepaper experts and this is all
they do and they can prove theirconversions If they're doing a
(16:01):
white paper for a million dollarproject, it's really easy for
them to charge a couple hundredthousand dollars for that paper,
because the value of that paperto the client is immense.
So it all comes down, and thisis why working with your ideal
clients is great.
If you work with a client whodoesn't value your work, you're
not going to get paid for it ornot paid.
Well, if you work with a clientwho sees the value of what you
(16:23):
do, if they see it on paper andif they see it in returns, then
they're never going to questionit.
Liz Heflin (16:30):
Yeah, and that's huge.
And there are so many factorsthat go into that ICP, that
ideal client profile, and someof them are kind of high level,
touchy feely.
Do we get along, do we align onvalues in that way?
But some of them are verypractical Is their business, is
what they're doing, is it goingto warrant paying me the rates
(16:52):
that I would need to charge towork with them?
And if the answer is no, maybethey love what you do, they
really value what you do.
They pay your rates for acouple of months.
But if it doesn't make businesssense, that's going to be a
short-lived relationship.
So if you're looking to chargemore, sometimes, as painful as
change, as comfortable as it canbe, sometimes that ideal client
(17:14):
profile has to shift and changeover time to continue to
accommodate what you're lookingto accomplish.
Treasa Edmond (17:21):
Your ideal client from 10 years ago should not
still be your ideal client today?
Yes, yes exactly.
I mean at all.
Liz Heflin (17:29):
And I think that's something people have to get
comfortable with withinfreelance in general is that the
only constant is change, andyour business, from month to
month, year to year, decade todecade, is going to be different
, and you are going to beconstantly pivoting and changing
.
And if you're not, if you'veplateaued, maybe you've
(17:52):
plateaued at a place that you'rehappy with.
I doubt it, though.
So, getting comfortable withthat constant change, because
it's a part of it, it's part andparcel of it, and that's
looking at your goals andlooking at your finances and
looking at your ideal clientsand all of it.
Treasa Edmond (18:08):
Now I want to point out something that I don't
see a lot of people talkingabout this and I really think
that we should.
And it goes back to thatleaving money on the table thing
, because we can spend and we dospend a lot of time stressing
about our rates and when we'redoing a proposal for a big
project, we spend all of thistime.
Is this rate something that'sgoing to work with the client?
(18:30):
None of that works if you don'tpre-qualify your clients and I
know a lot of people still don'tpre-qualify their clients, and
you should, people you shouldand there are a lot of ways to
do that are not invasive, ifthat's what bothers you.
But you really should never gointo a project and give a rate
until you know what yourclient's budget is, because it
(18:51):
doesn't matter if they're theperson you've waited to work
with for years, if they want topay $500 for something that you
charge $5,000 for, there is noalignment there and you need to
know that.
Also, if it's the person you'vewaited on for years and you
want to charge $500 forsomething that they want to pay
$5,000 for, you need to knowthat too.
(19:12):
So it's one of the questions onmy qualifying questionnaire when
they book a call with me for adiscovery call Questions what
type of project is it?
What deadlines are you lookingfor?
What's your budget for theproject?
Simple, straightforward.
It lets me know whether or notI even need to get on the call
because it wastes their time andyours if it doesn't work.
But it makes me so much moresure when I am sending them the
(19:36):
proposal for the project withthe rate attached, because if I
know that their rate issomewhere between $10,000 and
$15,000 for something, I cansend them a $12,000 rate and
have no doubt that they're goingto accept that if we really
meshed on that call and I thinkthat's huge.
So all of that say we need toknow what our rates should be.
We still need to go through allof this stuff, but if your
(19:56):
client has a budget that'ssignificantly larger than what
you would normally charge thebudget, yes, and part of that is
just the confidence piece.
Liz Heflin (20:05):
It really is.
Yes, like you said, you have togo through the exercise and
know what your target rates areand all of those parameters and
guidelines.
But if somebody comes in andsays I'm going to pay you 10,000
for something that you'retypically charging a thousand
for, it can make people kind offreeze up.
It can make them say, oh, I'mnever going to be able to
deliver $10,000 worth of valueon this project.
(20:27):
And chances are you probablycan and you probably already are
, and you probably exactly yes,if the words I'm talking about
exactly right.
You have been providing thatvalue to your clients all this
time.
You just haven't been chargingfor it.
And that's not to say thatevery client would then
immediately bump to 10,000 andall of that.
It's a nuanced thing at everyangle.
(20:48):
But I think, especially withwriting, for some reason I feel
like it's really easy for peopleto minimize it, to dismiss it,
to forget how much value, howhard it is, and how much value
they're really providing,because I think it's something a
lot of us are just good at,always been good at, it's always
been our strength, so it's easyto forget that.
(21:09):
For most people.
This is difficult.
It's hard and there's so muchbuyer psychology that goes into
it and just on it, so muchnuance that goes into anything
written on the page for abusiness, and it's easy to
forget all of that knowledgethat you have accrued and gained
over the years and how valuablethat is to companies.
Treasa Edmond (21:32):
I can't even tell you how many projects I've sent
to clients and I'm like man, Iwish I'd had another five days
to work on that.
I could have made it better.
And they will respond backimmediately and say this is
wonderful, We've tried to havefive in-house people do it.
No one could hit this mark.
Five in-house people do it noone could hit this mark.
Just because you hold yourselfto a specific level doesn't mean
your clients are, becausethey're usually about five steps
(21:54):
behind you.
Yes, 100%.
So you have existing clients,you've reached that mark, you're
charging what you think is apretty fair rate and then it's
time to raise rates, which howmany people do you talk to that
are like I haven't raised myrates in 10 years, yeah, yeah.
So how do you recommend or howdo you approach raising rates
(22:15):
with existing clients?
Are there any specificstrategies or timings that you
think work out best for thatconversation and people?
That should be a conversation.
It shouldn't be just a simpleemail saying my rates are going
up as of this day to this amountbe just a simple email saying
my rates are going up as of thisday to this amount.
Liz Heflin (22:33):
Yeah, sure, yeah, the raising your rates on an
existing client can be one ofthe most uncomfortable
conversations you have as afreelancer because things are
going well.
You don't want to rock the boat.
You're not sure what they'regoing to say.
You don't want to lose thatclient.
So, as you say, it has to be aconversation.
And I think a pillar of clienttrust is that open communication
(22:54):
, just the ability.
If you have a client who youcan confidently open a
conversation with and you knowthat it's going to be a
respectful back and forth,that's a client you don't want
to let go because you'll be ableto work through a lot of
hiccups and problems togetherbecause you're seeing eye to eye
on things.
So it is always if you've had areally big win with a client
(23:17):
that's particularly happy withyou in the moment, that can be a
nice time to broach the subject.
It doesn't have to be, but ifthey're already inclined to go
yeah, we just landed that$400,000 project the client came
in through a Google search andfound this article and then
contacted us.
Yeah, maybe that's a good timeto approach the subject I do.
(23:39):
Also, as part of theconversation, I like to let them
know that there will be a bitof a timeframe before that rate
kicks into place, so that givesthem time to get their ducks in
a row.
They can do some budgeting,shuffling around if need be, so
not just saying bam, rates aregoing to change.
As of this.
(23:59):
Email is important because it'sagain, it's a business and they
might need to do some shufflingand some adjusting to make it
all work.
Moving forward, and some of myclients I have had for 10, 12
years now, and I and I startedat a very low rate with them and
over the years I have graduallyincreased to my rates today and
(24:23):
they've been able to come withme at every step, partially
because they've been gainingclients and work off of the
content foundation that we'vebuilt together and just the
trust is there.
They can't I don't want to putwords in their mouth but they
can't imagine working withanybody else because we've been
working together forever.
I know them inside and out.
(24:44):
I know their tone of voice, Iknow their audience, I know all
of these nuances and ins andouts that make their content
work for them.
So I think there's also aninclination to want to go for
the jugular and go for the bignumbers right out of the gates.
But there's also something tobe said for starting at rates
that are quote, unquotereasonable and building with a
(25:08):
client over time, because that'sbeen one of my strong,
wonderful, rewarding, fun anchorclients for years and they've
been a big part of myfreelancing journey and a big
part of what's made itsustainable.
I'm all for charging your value, but also don't expect to get
pro rates the first day thatyou're out there freelancing
Right, and it is a value andyour value grows as you learn.
Treasa Edmond (25:31):
So you are significantly more value to that
client now than you were thenbecause you bring so much more
to the table and that level ofexpertise and that ease and the
fact that they can probably sendyou a project and you just send
it back.
Liz Heflin (25:44):
There's no back and forth.
There's no.
Let's hammer this out.
Treasa Edmond (25:47):
That is valuable to a client in so many more ways
than we can realize, because itsolves pain points for them
that we don't even know exist,and that's a big thing.
Liz Heflin (25:59):
Absolutely.
There is real dollars and centsattached to every minute that
they have to spend dealing withthe back and forth of a piece of
content.
If it's easy and seamless andjust takes it off their plate,
there's real practical value inthat.
Treasa Edmond (26:15):
And I want to point out here and I'm pretty
sure Liz is going to agree withthis there's a big difference
between charging your valuewhere you are now even if you're
starting out new and thenworking your way up and starting
at content mill prices andexpecting your client to work up
, because those I'm sorry, thoseclients are never going to work
(26:36):
their way up.
They're always going to be ableto find a thousand people that
they can pay for $25 for anarticle.
Just don't Recognize that youhave a minimum viable value,
which is where it comes insetting your bottom rate.
You need to do that.
So don't backtrack and sellyourself short to get a client,
(26:59):
because if you do one, you'regoing to completely never
respect that client and you aregoing to get massive resentment
built up because you're going tobe like you're paying me $25
less an hour than I need to paymy bills and you're still just
picking at everything I do.
That's not a client you want,you just don't.
(27:20):
So you have your rate set.
You've done all of this hardmental work.
You're comfortable with whereyou are.
This is difficult.
This is an area that I strugglewith even now, and I've been
doing this for 20 years.
Now You're talking to a clientabout their project and let's
say you've qualified them evenso, you know that they have
budget for this.
(27:41):
You send them your rate forthat project and they push back.
They want to bargain you down,or they are like we said our
budget was $10,000, but wereally only want to pay $5,000.
Whatever that is, how do yourecommend handling those?
And I say rate negotiations Inegotiate scope.
I never negotiate rate.
(28:02):
I will negotiate scope.
I never negotiate rate.
But I hear a lot of peopletalking about rate negotiations
and you've said it, so I want toclarify that.
So how do you negotiatewhatever you negotiate with
clients who push back on yourpricing?
Liz Heflin (28:24):
That's a perfect point and exactly what I wanted
to say.
Yes, scope negotiation versusrate negotiation is huge,
because the second you startchipping away at that rate is
when you start to feel devalued.
And even if you're ostensiblyhappy at the rate you end up at
because you got chipped awaydown, it just feels different.
Yes, if they say our budget isthis, then I let them know how
many deliverables will fit intothat at the rate that I'm
(28:47):
comfortable charging.
They say they want eight blogsfor X amount of dollars and I'm
not happy with that per articlerate.
Well then, maybe four worksbased on whatever my projected
rate would be.
So yes, I absolutely willnegotiate on scope.
That's the perfect way to putit Scope negotiation versus rate
negotiation, absolutely.
Treasa Edmond (29:07):
And you know I've had a lot of clients who have
come back to me and said we'dreally like to reduce it to this
amount so that we have morecushion in our budget.
And when I respond back withsure I can work with that rate,
but I'm going to have to reducethe scope, so we're going to
have to take out either this orthis.
It's amazing how often theyfind that they actually have
(29:29):
room in their budget becausethey don't want to give anything
up.
And this is not.
Once again, it's not personal.
They're not devaluing you oryour work.
It's their job to save theircompany money.
And if they can ballpark you afigure and you just take it,
then you're helping them savetheir company money.
You're not making money foryour company, so think about
(29:49):
that.
But here's one, liz.
So say I'm a client and I'mwanting you to write a blog post
that you have said is going tobe $1,000, which is a very fair
rate for that project, and I geta little bit nasty and I'm like
I just don't get it.
I could get that for $100 onUpwork.
How do you respond to asituation like that?
(30:09):
Because that is personal.
Liz Heflin (30:13):
That does feel very personal and I will say I've
been very lucky in my business.
I really haven't encounteredthat kind of an attitude very
much and I put that down toworking with the right kind of
clients.
That's a big piece of it.
But yeah, that's the pointwhere I would just say that's a
massive flag for me.
That would be a disqualifyingcomment for me.
(30:35):
I would just say you know what?
This probably isn't going to bea good fit because a client who
has that attitude, that attitudeis going to show up in other
ways and it is going to affecthow long the project takes and
how happy they are with it,which is probably going to be
not very, even if you'redelivering super high quality
work.
And that kind of a statement isjust indicative of a much
(30:59):
bigger problem.
And I know, again, in thislandscape it's hard to even
fathom turning work away becausethis idea that something is
better than nothing, sometimesnothing is better than something
, If that something is going tojust be a total drain on your
time, your mental energy, goingto just be a total drain on your
(31:20):
time, your mental energy, howgood you feel about the work
that gets done, all of thesethings that have a real
practical impact.
So, yeah, you have to know whatyour deal breakers are, but a
comment like that for me wouldbe a deal breaker.
Treasa Edmond (31:31):
We talk about red flags a lot and I know that
there've been several red flagconversations in the past where
how many red flags are too many?
There are red walls for me andthose are deal breakers and if
they do this thing, I will notwork with them, and this is one
of those for me.
If they get snarky or nastyabout my rate which I've worked
(31:52):
very hard to set and I know myvalue I immediately send off a
very professional, very niceemail.
In any other situation I wouldoffer to refer them on.
If they hit that one, I don't.
I just say it looks like thisproject isn't a good fit for my
business right now, but I wishyou all the best.
Thank you for yourconsideration, teresa.
That's it.
(32:12):
There's no room for moreconversation and yeah, it's, and
sometimes it is it.
Liz Heflin (32:18):
Everything is dependent on the situation.
Sometimes it is just a clientwho doesn't really understand
the landscape and it's just isjust needs some kind of
education about how freelancerscharge and you can feel that in
your bones, the way thatsomething is said.
If, whether it's a differencebetween this is just going to be
a nasty, unpleasant person towork with versus somebody who's
(32:40):
like, well, why is it thatexpensive?
I saw this other personcharging a lot less.
I don't understand thediscrepancy.
Those are two very differentsentences.
One's a very legitimate question, the other one is a personal
hit and people like to say thisbut no is also a complete
sentence.
You don't have to justifyyourself to that person.
Doesn't have to be a whole bigthing.
(33:03):
If you get a vibe like this,person is going to be a toxic
client for you.
That's going to cause problemsfor you.
It is.
It is more than okay to justsay I'm so sorry.
This isn't a good fit at thistime.
Treasa Edmond (33:15):
I believe and this is part of the rates
conversation because there aretimes you do not want to engage
in a conversation because it'snot going to go anywhere, and
it's okay to build that boundaryand say, no, this is not a
conversation I'm going toparticipate in, thank you for
your interest, end, that's it,you don't have to do anything
(33:36):
else.
And that that can cause anxiety.
And then we also have internalrate anxiety.
So let's talk about impostersyndrome, because this is the
topic everyone loves to hate,right?
So what advice do you have forfreelancers who struggle with
confidence and charging theirdesired rates?
So, are there any mindsetshifts or practices you
(33:56):
recommend?
Liz Heflin (33:58):
Yeah, a couple, and this is a hard one because, just
like freelancing, is specificto each person.
How they operate, how you getover mental hurdles, is very
personal to you.
There.
I wish there were a confidencewand that I could just bop
people on the head and magicallynow they're okay with their
rates forever.
But obviously that doesn'texist.
(34:19):
So it's a very in a lot of waysit's a very personal question.
You have to figure out whatworks for you.
But I think a big piece of itcan honestly be throwing
yourself into community.
And I say this again, this kindof my fallback answer, because
I've seen the benefits in somany different ways.
When you immerse yourself withother people who do what you do,
(34:40):
who understand what you'regoing through, you can
commiserate with.
Having that support can bereally transformative.
It's really powerful.
It's not something to bedismissed or taken lightly.
When you're running a businessof one, you don't always have
somebody to turn to.
There isn't always a coworkerto ask an opinion of.
(35:01):
So when you build thatcommunity and support system for
yourself, it can help alleviatesome of those mental demons
that we all battle, no matterhow long you've been doing this,
no matter how skilled you arehow confident you are.
I guarantee those contentcreators that you look up to
they are dealing with this onsome end of the spectrum as well
(35:24):
.
So I think that's important toois talking about it, knowing
everybody's dealing with it tovarying degrees and having that
support network.
Again, you kind of forget howgood you are at things because
you do it all the time.
It's just part of what you do.
When you get out there and youstart talking to people, you
remember okay, I am a part ofthis community, I do have a
(35:44):
voice, I do have a place here.
So that can help alleviate someof it.
Treasa Edmond (35:48):
And there's a great deal of encouragement that
comes from encouraging otherpeople.
And Liz is talking aboutnetworking and building your
community and I know that freaksout a lot of introverts and
when she's talking about thatshe's not saying you have to
join a community of 20,000people and talk to all of them.
You can find two or threepeople that you really mesh well
with.
Start a baby mastermind it'sstill a mastermind.
(36:11):
Meet regularly, talk to them,talk about your concerns and the
issues that you have.
Run your rates by them Say Ihave this project coming up and
I'm going to do this thing.
If there's an area that you'restruggling with and you bond
with those people and form arelationship, they become really
valuable feedback in your life.
And then that feedback loopbecause it's reciprocated, you
(36:35):
don't ever want to go into acommunity or build a community
and just take yes 100%.
Liz Heflin (36:41):
That's kind of the foundational principle that if
you go in with a transactionalmindset, if you're just thinking
what can I get, what can I get,what can I get, you are going
to get nothing out of it.
That's just kind of the way itis.
If you go in with a genuinedesire to offer what you can and
to provide the support that youcan provide, provide the
(37:03):
insight you can provide, all ofthose things that is going to
come back on you tenfold.
It's just the way it works.
Treasa Edmond (37:11):
Intent matters too.
So you can't go into acommunity determined to foist
your opinions on everyone else.
You need to intend to offervalue and not ram things down
people's throats.
Offer value by all means,answer the question.
But if you answer a questiondifferent from the other 50
people that answer the questionand you are in one of those
(37:31):
larger communities, it's notyour job to go through and
respond to every one of thoseother responses and refute them.
That's not the purpose.
The purpose is offer youropinion and then, when you ask a
question, people are going tooffer you a variety of opinions
(37:58):
too.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutelyyes.
Can't talk up community ingeneral, whatever it means to
you, whatever it looks like toyou enough where you're
undercharging, unless otherpeople are transparent about
their rates.
And I'm not talking humblebragging, and I'm not talking
outright bragging and I'm nottalking setting unreasonable
expectations.
And this comes back tosomething that we talked about
(38:19):
earlier that I said I was goingto bring up when you're setting
your rates and I know Liz's toolgoes into this, and I want
everyone to be so, so clear onthis.
When someone says that they'remaking $600 an hour doing
writing, they might actually bemaking $600 an hour for their
client work, but I can guaranteethat does not translate to $600
(38:39):
an hour, to the time they'respending on and in their
business.
So share your rates, but sharethem transparently and put
qualifiers in there.
So say, yeah, I make $300 anhour minimum writing.
I do, that's absolutely.
But I don't make $300 a minimumwhen I amortize that out
(39:02):
because I'm spending a lot ofhours marketing my business and
that brings my rate down.
I'm just very careful to notlet that drop below that minimum
, that threshold.
Liz Heflin (39:11):
Yeah, I think if you look at the broader context of
the people who are saying thethings about their rates, you
can get a lot of insight intosort of the legitimacy of what
they're doing, Cause if they'retrying to sell you something and
they're trying to sell you onthe idea that you can make $600
an hour and buy this Lamborghiniand live in this mansion,
(39:32):
whatever, some red flags, somealarm bells are probably going
off.
But if somebody is a trustedmember of the community,
somebody you know, somebodylikes, somebody you trust,
somebody whose opinion you value, and you're having a really
honest, frank, nuanceddiscussion about rates, again
it's a very differentconversation.
Treasa Edmond (39:51):
So having the full context is always helpful.
Liz Heflin (39:54):
The reason, one of the big reasons that I say
jumping into LinkedIn, jumpinginto community, was the biggest
game changer in my business, isbecause I didn't even realize
what was possible with freelance.
It changed so many of mymindsets about money, about how
to charge, how to earn, how tostructure contracts, how to
(40:16):
continuously earn off the samepiece of collateral, how one
piece of work can continuouslyearn you money.
These were just things that Iwasn't thinking about in my
business until I immersed myselfin it.
Until I immersed myself in itand when I joined I wasn't
making those kinds of figures,but it opened my eyes to what
(40:40):
was possible.
And before long I was kind ofsurprised to open my eyes and go
oh my God, like I'm part of thepeople who are making those
rates now, and it sneaks up onyou sometimes.
Treasa Edmond (40:45):
And I think it's.
I think part of it too ispeople are it takes up on you
sometimes and I think it's, Ithink part of it too is people
are.
Liz Heflin (40:57):
They don't want to be seen as braggadocious or
whatever, so it's hard for themto just go out there and post
their wins, tent matters, butit's important to do.
It's just as we.
Every conversation should benuanced negative and positive,
and I and you need to see bothsides to get the full picture,
cause I think right now,especially for people who are
starting out, it's really easyto look at the overarching
conversation and just say, oh,freelance isn't sustainable
(41:18):
right now and they quit on it.
Yeah, and seeing that it ispossible to succeed, and in
really exciting ways, is animportant piece of that
conversation that shouldn't bestifled or self-censored.
Treasa Edmond (41:31):
And realize that these people didn't get there
overnight.
They worked hard, they builttheir networks, they've built
their referrals, they've doneall of those things.
It tells you what's possibleand it gives you an idea of what
to work toward.
It's not.
This is a milestone you need tomeet right now, because that's
just that's not feasible andmaybe it's not a milestone you
(41:51):
ever need to meet.
Liz Heflin (41:52):
I mean, there are lots of people who get into
freelance because they have, youknow, children or aging parents
or any kind of other multipleresponsibilities, and what they
want, what success looks likefor them, is something where
they can make X amount thatcovers these bills and they only
have to work two, three hours aday.
(42:12):
Whatever the numbers of thesituation might be Part of
hearing what's possible too, isthe mental fortitude hearing it
without going, oh I need to goafter that shiny object, that
shiny benchmark, or, on theother side, not getting so
discouraged because you're notthere yet.
So it's a big mental game, butif you can learn what's out
there and then put on blindersand run your own race, that's
(42:34):
where the gold happens.
That's where the good stuff.
Treasa Edmond (42:36):
Yeah, five years ago, when people started really
talking about the six-figurefreelancer, I'm like, yeah, I
don't need to do that and itdidn't bother me.
But then I started looking atthe bottom line, my foundational
rates, and I'm like, no, Iactually do need to do that,
because by the time I pay taxesand all of my expenses and I've
got all of these other thingsand this is what I want to do
(42:57):
and I want to go on a trip ayear.
That actually is kind of myminimum income.
Take what works for you andleave the rest.
Okay, so you've talked a littlebit as we've gone along this
week about a couple of theresources you have, and I know
you have a lot of great ones outthere.
Are there any specific ones youwant to share with the Boss
Responses community?
Liz Heflin (43:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
Back in February I did launch acommunity.
I've talked a lot aboutcommunity on this episode, but
yeah, I launched a subscriptioncommunity exclusively for
freelance writers.
It's called the Inkwell and itis a repository of resources and
coaching and then just thebuilt-in support and motivation
(43:34):
and educational piece that youget in kind of this smaller safe
space.
If LinkedIn feels a littleoverwhelming because it's too
many people and you don't feellike you can openly ask
questions, this is a small safespace of people who really get
you, get your industry, get allthe nuance around it.
So always plug in the inkwell.
That's really near and dear tomy heart.
And then I do have I mentionedit briefly the find your floor
(43:58):
course which will help youdetermine that minimum rate for
you.
There's a video course.
It walks you through why it'seven important, what some of the
factors are that go into it.
And then there's a pricing toolso you just basically put in
your numbers.
There's some technical mumbojumbo that happens in the
background and magically anumber spits out and you get
(44:19):
your minimum hourly rate.
And then there's a wholesection about how to convert
hourly to other pricing modelsif you're doing other pricing
models.
But yeah, that's available too.
And it's step one in the ratesetting process in my mind is
getting to that minimum rate, sothat's available too.
And it's step one in the ratesetting process in my mind is
getting to that minimum rate, sothat's out there as well.
Treasa Edmond (44:33):
Yep, that's the foundation of a successful
business, I think.
So I'll have links to yoursocial and to these resources in
the show notes, but if someonewants to find you online, where
would they go?
Liz Heflin (44:44):
I'm always on LinkedIn probably too much.
You can find me there always.
So yeah, just Liz Heflin,you'll find me on LinkedIn.
And then if you want to send mean email, you can just do Liz
L-I-Z at Liz Heflin dot com.
Treasa Edmond (44:57):
Simple and easy to get there, all right.
One last question, liz whatadvice would you give to service
providers looking to createlasting, successful partnerships
with their clients?
Liz Heflin (45:07):
Yeah, this is another great question.
These are gold questions.
I have really built my businesson the back of sustained,
successful partnerships with myclients and I feel like I got
there by clearing a couple ofhurdles that seem really basic,
but somehow a lot of people falldown on them.
Not over-promising andunder-delivering, making sure
(45:30):
expectations are always veryrealistic, especially around
results and revenue.
Especially in something likecontent.
It can be a bit of a build.
You have to invest before theSEO starts to pay off.
Providing that education piece,making sure they understand very
realistically what to expect ishuge.
And then just meeting deadlinesevery time, treating them as
(45:54):
like ironclad agreements.
And obviously life happens.
Nobody is perfect.
Things come up, but if youproactively communicate with
them throughout the process, youcan.
You're not going to springanything on them.
If you see a roadblock downdown the road, go, I don't know,
(46:14):
this thing might come up andthen I don't know if I can meet
my deadline.
It's so much better to reachout and just say, hey, this
potential thing is going to getin the way of this deadline and
then, if it doesn't happen,great.
If it does happen, they have aheads up.
So that open communication isreally key and knowing what
clients want, which is just adrama-free, easy, pleasant
(46:40):
experience that also yieldsresults.
If you can tick all of thoseboxes, if you can be pleasant to
work with, then the work ishigh quality.
Consistently, you're meetingyour deadlines and then also, as
a practical bonus, it's working, the process is working and
bringing in the revenue itshould.
(47:00):
That client will never, everwant to let you go, because why
would they?
And I think we tend tounderestimate how hard it is to
find and implement and put intoplace a good freelancer.
There's so many people outthere who are doing it, but it
is hard to find somebody who's agood fit in all of those ways.
Yeah, that's my formula forkeeping clients happy and it
(47:22):
hasn't let me fall down yet.
Treasa Edmond (47:25):
So that was just over a minute.
I think, folks, if you want torewind that and listen to that
again, maybe take some notes,because you should.
So, liz, I think this isprobably going to go down as one
of my favorite weeks of theBoss Responses podcast ever.
I loved every day of theconversation.
It's been absolutely amazing.
So thank you so much for all ofyour time and energy and for
(47:46):
just being here and for feedingback into the community.
Liz Heflin (47:49):
Of course, no, I'm so glad you asked.
This was great.
I love doing these kinds ofthings and I had a blast All
right, that was the week withLiz.
Treasa Edmond (47:58):
I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
Come back next week for anentirely new guest host.
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