January 24, 2025 • 45 mins
Are you ready to reshape how you build and manage your client relationships? Host Treasa Edmond sits down with Sarah Greesonbach, the founder of B2B Content Studio and the B2B Writing Institute this week to discuss why setting clear, respectful boundaries in client relationships is not just beneficial, but essential for your professional success and personal well-being.
They discuss how you can establish healthy boundaries with clients and. Sarah demystifies common misconceptions about boundaries, explaining why they are vital for mutual respect in freelance-client partnerships.
This episode is a full masterclass of information, guiding you to embrace a balanced approach to flexibility and boundaries, ensuring your client partnerships are both healthy and productive. Tune in for strategies that will help you present yourself as the expert you are, while maintaining the harmony necessary for a successful freelance business.
About Our Guest
Sarah Greesonbach is the founder of B2B Content Studio and a seasoned expert in B2B marketing content. With over a decade of experience writing for Fortune 100 brands and top executives, Sarah specializes in transforming complex ideas into clear, compelling content. She has worked with industries ranging from SaaS and HR tech to retail and higher education, helping businesses showcase their unique value to prospective customers.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Treasa Edmond (00:00):
Welcome back to Boss Responses.
Do you ever feel like you'rewalking a tightrope in your
freelance business, trying tobalance keeping clients happy
while also maintaining yoursanity?
I think we've all been there atone point or another.
Today we're tackling the twopillars of a thriving client
relationship boundaries andpartnerships.
Our special guest co-host thisweek is Sarah Greesonbach.
(00:22):
If you haven't listened to thefirst four episodes, I highly
recommend making time.
They are full of valuableinformation.
Sarah is a seasoned B2B contentexpert who's worked with
Fortune 100 brands and countlessCEOs, helping them transform
their expertise into high-impactmarketing content.
She's the founder of B2BContent Studio, a six-figure
(00:43):
writing business, and the B2BWriting Institute, where she
trains the next generation ofin-demand B2B writers.
Her journey has taken her fromteaching high school English to
ghostwriting for high-trafficpublications to becoming a
trusted partner for topmarketing agencies.
I'm thrilled to have her herethis week as she shares her
thoughts on building healthyclient relationships.
Today's episode is a truemasterclass and I hope you get
(01:07):
as much out of it as I have.
If you're a freelancer, businessowner or anyone who deals with
clients, you're in the rightplace.
I'm your host, Treasa Edmond.
I've been dealing with clientsand running my business for
nearly two decades and in thattime I've dealt with my share of
doubt, imposter syndrome andnot knowing what to say when a
(01:28):
client asked a question I wasn'tready for.
I created this podcast toempower you with the boss
responses you need to grow yourbusiness.
Each week, my guest co-host andI will bring you five episodes
packed with practical insights.
Monday through Thursday, weanswer your questions, and
Fridays we dive deep to explorehow our co-hosts embrace their
(01:51):
role as the boss of theirbusiness.
Welcome to Boss Responses.
All right, Sarah, it's time wewant to learn more about you
before we talk about boundariesand creating relationships.
So tell me a little bit aboutyou and what you do.
Sarah Greesonbach (02:09):
Thank you.
I'm excited to be here for dayfive, to get real, and I'm
hoping I can turn some of thesequestions back to you and get
some answers as well.
We can do that, excellent.
So my name is Sarah and I'm abusiness coach for freelance
writers, mainly people whooverthink every move and
decision they've ever made intheir lives, and I help them get
(02:30):
it together and build abusiness that is inclusive of
work but then also a real lifeand having fun.
So a lot of what I do is talkabout art and stationery and
fountain pens, and then alsoboundaries and clients and B2B
marketing and writing.
Treasa Edmond (02:48):
So essentially, Sarah does every day on an
individual basis with herclients what we try to do on
this podcast.
Now, did you start out as afreelancer before you switched
over to coaching?
Sarah Greesonbach (02:58):
Yeah, I was born a.
No, I'm messing with you.
No, I thought I was going tosave the world by being a ninth
grade English teacher in thecountry and it was horrific yeah
and I made it two and a halfyears before I left after
Christmas break and I justdidn't go back so.
I got a job in writing andediting and just kind of
(03:19):
returned to my roots in writing.
Treasa Edmond (03:20):
In English it's's nice, isn't it?
Sarah Greesonbach (03:23):
It was amazing that first moment I
realized I could go to thebathroom whenever I wanted, like
to sit in a cubicle in an airconditioned room and just get up
and leave.
It was truly extraordinary.
So I think maybe that was eventhe start of my real development
of boundaries and understandingwhat that means in a workplace.
(03:44):
I think.
So it's amazing, looking back,how relevant that is to what
we're talking about today.
Treasa Edmond (03:49):
So you worked for another business then, when you
first started doing the writingand editing, that's correct.
Sarah Greesonbach (03:54):
I left teaching and got a job in
government contracting as awriter and editor, and then I
tried to follow my husband downto where he was in a city and I
got into a marketing startup,and so that was my first real
exposure to marketing andcontent marketing and how this
all works.
But they laid me off after sixmonths.
Treasa Edmond (04:13):
A startup and I was crushed.
Sarah Greesonbach (04:14):
Yes, a startup marketing agency.
Treasa Edmond (04:17):
Yeah, so that's not fun.
Sarah Greesonbach (04:20):
It was not.
Treasa Edmond (04:21):
Did you enjoy it while you were there, though?
Sarah Greesonbach (04:23):
Yeah, I think that really laid the groundwork
of what writing is and whatmarketing and copywriting is and
what it could be.
So when I got laid off, Ithought to myself well, if this
dude, this rando, is sellingwhat I do to these people, is
that something I could do?
Could I just sell it directly?
So I think I really got mystart understanding the role of
(04:44):
the agency, but also wonderingif I could just do that without
somebody else getting theoverhead.
And it worked just wonderfully.
Right away.
I hit that content marketingwave in like 2014, where
everybody and their motherneeded to have a blog, and I
also hit Jonathan Stark andBrennan Dunn and Ash Ambrose and
(05:05):
different people who weretalking about really owning your
value and value based rates andproject based rates.
Treasa Edmond (05:11):
Yeah.
Sarah Greesonbach (05:11):
So I pretty quickly switched to that as well
, and I think that's what reallycemented me.
Being able to do this for afull time role is getting away
from hourly pretty muchimmediately.
Treasa Edmond (05:21):
So how long did you do that before you became a
coach?
Sarah Greesonbach (05:27):
much immediately.
So how long did you do that?
Before you became a coach, Iwas a freelancer full time from
like 2014 to 2016, 2017.
And around the time go figurethat I had two kids.
I also was getting justincreasingly sick.
And now I'm in the healingcycle in a couple of years
through feeling a lot better.
But at the time, looking back,I realized like I kind of
thought I was dying.
(05:48):
So I was bringing together allof the stuff I'd been doing and
all of the great things thatwere happening in my career, and
I started putting togethercurriculums for how to learn B2B
writing, how to transition intoit, how to learn how to
freelance when you're just anormal person and you don't know
how to sell stuff, cause thatwas a really hard thing for me
to learn.
And so around 2018, 2019, Irealized man maybe.
(06:11):
I am a teacher and I just gotreally burned, so I came back
around to it and then, throughmy work with my coach, ed, I
realized coaching is a beautifuloutlet for all of these things
that I love to do.
So that's how we ended up here.
Treasa Edmond (06:24):
Yeah, that's very similar to my journey, so
that's pretty interesting.
Sarah Greesonbach (06:28):
Go on.
Treasa Edmond (06:30):
No, I actually I had the toxic client I worked
for for years.
I actually went to college tobe a teacher and realized in
college that was not the worldfor me.
And then I hopscotched aroundon different jobs and I finally
started working in a magazine asan editorial assistant and then
I started writing some and thenI walked away from that and I
went back to dissertationediting and that's actually what
(06:52):
put me back in the editing andwriting world and I started
freelancing and it was wonderful.
And then the whole pandemicthing made me take a really deep
look at what I was doing withmy life and was I happy where I
was?
And I leaned more into thefreelancer community there and I
realized I really liked helpingpeople and answering questions
(07:13):
and helping them deal with theirtricky client situations.
And from there it kind of seguedinto.
Now I'm doing more coaching andteaching than actually writing
for clients, but I still do it.
I just pick them very carefully.
And then content strategy aswell.
I still do it, but I pick theclients that I really want to
work with and the rest of it isteaching people and I love it.
(07:35):
But it's different kind ofteaching and coaching.
Sarah Greesonbach (07:38):
Yeah, and I feel like with the two of us
what people often see from theoutside is just a sense of
confidence and assurance and youknow, don't let clients take
advantage of you, that kind ofstuff and it's almost like
people want some of that forthemselves.
So who I work with most oftenis like Enneagram fives and twos
(07:58):
, who find that just so stuck intheir head and so used to doing
what other people want them todo, that when they have the
chance to do what they want todo, they're not really sure what
that is, and then they don'tknow how to say it.
They don't know how to enforcethose boundaries or make a
different decision than whatsomeone else wants them to do.
And I just get so high off ofthat when I could help someone
(08:22):
who's such a gentle soul likeactually calmly and gently put a
boundary in place.
It's just the most beautifulthing.
Treasa Edmond (08:28):
The moment it clicks.
I'm so happy for people whenthey do that, and that's one of
the things with my strategybosses, community is watching
the growth process of learningstrategy and becoming more
confident in it, and, even ifthey're not completely confident
, they borrow my confidence, andI think that's okay and I think
it's great and I love doing it.
But confidence is not the topicwe're here to talk about today.
(08:53):
We're going to talk about atopic that I'm really passionate
about, and that's actually twotopics that work in tandem.
The first is boundaries, whichI know some people think is a
dirty, dirty, dirty word, andI'm hoping we can prove them
wrong today and the second ishow to be a partner to your
clients instead of being asubstitute employee, because
(09:14):
that sucks.
So let's start our discussionabout boundaries, because I know
this is something you're prettypassionate about, too.
How do you define healthyboundaries in a freelancer
client relationship?
Sarah Greesonbach (09:27):
I think a healthy boundary is being able
to say what you do and don'twant to do very clearly and
respectfully, and then stickingwith it.
Treasa Edmond (09:37):
Yeah.
Sarah Greesonbach (09:38):
And I think it's a boundary violation when
we say we're happy to dosomething and we really aren't.
Yeah, I'm stealing that fromeither Brene Brown or Tara Moore
, who's like people pleasing isactually lying to people because
it's making them think that youwant to do something you don't
want to do, and that can be aninteresting thing for a people
pleaser to realize.
Is I'm saying yes wheneverything in me is screaming no
(10:01):
?
Why am I doing this?
Treasa Edmond (10:02):
And I think one of the best things you can ever
do for yourself as a person,much less for your business, is
embrace the power of the word no.
It's a good word and it's aword that you should learn and
it doesn't hurt anyone.
And we were talking before weeven started talking and
recording these episodes aboutboundaries.
Episodes about boundaries and arevelation that I had not long
(10:29):
back, because of a TikToker whowas talking about boundaries and
personal relationships.
And it's the point thatboundaries are not for the other
person.
And this is the feedback I geta lot when I talk about
boundaries is I don't want tocontrol my clients.
I can't tell my clients what todo.
One, you're not the whole pointof a guidelines for both of you
(10:52):
to have a successfulrelationship.
And when you set a boundary,you're setting a guideline or,
as I told Sarah earlier, a linein the sand that shouldn't be
crossed.
And the whole point of theboundary is, if they do cross
that line, both of you knowswhat's happening.
Which means, if I have aboundary that a client shouldn't
call me after hours, if I havea boundary that a client
(11:12):
shouldn't call me after hoursand they do it anyway, they know
that I'm not going to respondto them and I know, if they
continue to do this, this is nota client I'm going to work with
, so it's just settingboundaries that are a helpful
guideline for you on how yourespond to certain situations.
So that's all a boundary is.
Can you, sarah, share a time oran example of a time when you
(11:35):
had to establish or reallyreinforce boundaries with a
client?
How did you approach that?
Sarah Greesonbach (11:54):
term deadlines over the holidays
Because personally I have apretty strong sense of identity.
I'm pretty direct in mostsituations and I'm pretty good
with boundaries because I'vebeen working on it so long.
But for some reason, if someoneneeds something from me two
days before Thanksgiving,everything in me screams yes.
Everything in me wants to solvethat problem for them and just
be the one who fixed it.
And I ruined years of holidaysby saying yes to things over
(12:19):
Thanksgiving, over Christmas,over New Year's, and what I had
to learn was pretty much everysingle time I did that they
didn't even look at it until aweek after the holiday and I
just ruined it for me and myfamily for no reason, because I
had this impulse to just helpand save and I had to really get
(12:40):
clear on A there was nopositive outcome to that.
It didn't actually saveanybody's life.
And then B I'm allowed to havea holiday.
A lot of the boundary stuffmixes over with mindset because
it's really about an identity ofI'm a person who's allowed to
say no and that's okay, and manypeople just don't have that.
(13:00):
I feel lucky I do have that atthe baseline and boundaries are
still hard, so imagine how hardit must be.
If you don't think, you'reallowed to say no.
Treasa Edmond (13:08):
Yeah, short deadline boundaries is one that
it's probably one of the firstboundaries I put in place.
For the same reason I'd missout on weekends or I'd have to
cancel a date night or whatever,because they needed something
really quickly.
And I was talking to a veteranfreelancer who had just started
coaching and they said what'sone problem?
These clients that wanteverything in two days and it
(13:35):
makes me put my entire life onhold and I'm really starting to
resent them.
And they said, well, theresentment's a you issue, not a
them issue.
And I'm like, no, it's them.
Sarah Greesonbach (13:45):
They're doing it.
Treasa Edmond (13:47):
They are the ones who are asking for the stuff
with unreasonable expectations.
And she said no, you are theone who is saying yes.
That means it's a you issue.
If you said no and they pushedit and forced you to do it at
gunpoint, then it's a them issue.
And I was like ow, so I'm likehow do I deal with that?
And she said you learn to sayno.
And I was like but I like theseclients.
And she said you learn to sayno to protect yourself.
(14:09):
And I'm like no, you don'tunderstand.
I really like working with them.
What if they go work withsomeone else?
She said then they weren't theright client.
And it was a lesson in mearguing and her smacking me up
beside the head with stuff.
But she eventually said find aworkaround.
She said charge more.
And I hadn't heard of rush feesbefore that, and I'm like what
are you talking about?
She said if they really wantedit and they're willing to pay a
(14:30):
rush fee, tell them you'llcharge twice as much, but you'll
have it done in that timeframe.
She said make sure your rushfee is painful enough for them
and happy enough for you thatyou don't mind missing out on
whatever you're going to missout on.
I did that and most of myclients all of a sudden weren't
in a hurry anymore and itchanged my life.
I started looking at other waysthat I could do the same thing.
(14:53):
But I will always charge a rushfee because I've worked on both
ends of the spectrum.
I've been the client and I'vehad the clients and I know that
when they want something nextweek, they don't usually want it
next week.
They don't need it next week.
That's just a deadline on aspreadsheet.
They're not going to touch itfor a month.
If they're willing to wait anextra week, I won't charge them
the rush fee.
(15:13):
If they want to pay the rushfee and they actually need it
quickly, then sure, let's talkabout that.
But yeah, that was my firstsituation and it was a rough
learning experience for me, butI've never looked back.
Sarah Greesonbach (15:25):
Yeah, and for a listener we'd want to
highlight you've already vettedyour clients to be reasonable
individuals who aren't going tomake demands on a stranger and
tell them to change theirschedule.
So, if you're listening to thisand you're thinking well, my
clients would never go for that.
Your clients could be badpeople and you might want to
(15:45):
find different ones.
Treasa Edmond (15:47):
Oh, I tried really hard not to laugh out
loud at that, but she's sayingthe truth.
People, it's a little bit ofthat tough love coming back.
It's carrying over fromyesterday Talking about this
issue.
Then, what are some of thecommon boundary issues, sarah,
that you see freelancers facing,and how can they really work to
start addressing thoseprofessionally instead of just
being reactive whenever thingsdon't go their way?
Sarah Greesonbach (16:10):
One that comes to mind is literally right
when you first start talking toa client.
I've been working with peoplelately who feel like if we had a
kickoff call and if I said I'minterested in working with them,
I'm now married to them and Ineed to move in, and if I don't,
I've broken promises and I'm aterrible person.
And I think that's a reallyimportant lesson to learn.
(16:33):
When you break out from being afull-time employee and you're
suddenly your own person andyou're out in the world,
literally nothing is set instone until it's in a contract
and you have money, and eventhen you can reverse many of
your decisions if a problemcomes up.
So the idea that you have somekind of loyalty or obligation to
someone because you chatted andbecause they really like you
(16:54):
and they're totally going topick you over all the other
writers there's still no realrelationship there.
You can have them in the wings,you can make some tentative
plans, but you don't want tocommit in your heart until
you've actually been paid.
Treasa Edmond (17:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
Let's talk about that for justa second.
So discovery calls are part ofmy process and I know there are
other freelancers who only do adiscovery situation through
email.
But I like looking in people'seyes and knowing what they're
thinking.
That discovery call or thatfirst communication, even if
it's by email, sets the tone forthe rest of your relationship
(17:27):
with that potential client.
I have a system that I'veworked years to perfect that
works for me.
This wouldn't work for everyone.
I get on that discovery call andit's not about the client
discovering what I do, it's mediscovering what the client
needs, 100%.
So I immediately thank them fortaking the time to come and
(17:49):
tell me more about their project.
That's how I do it.
And then I say let's go aheadand do introductions, and then
I'll jump right into go aheadand do introductions and then
I'll jump right into a couple ofquestions I have.
After the introductions Iimmediately say all right,
whenever you booked this call,you gave me some information
about the project.
And then I confirm their scopeand their budget and their
deadline, which are all on myqualifying form.
(18:09):
And I don't even get on thatcall, by the way, if any of
those are really off.
I from there talk more aboutwhat they want out of the
project and see whether or not Ican help them do what they want
.
And then the last five minutesof that 20-minute call is do you
have any questions for me?
Because I've already told themabout my working process and how
it will be and most of the timethey're like nope, that's great
(18:29):
.
I seldom don't convert adiscovery call because my
clients are looking for anexpert and they feel like they
found one because all they'vedone is talk about themselves
the entire time.
But in the process I've learnedif they have a problem, if I
try to start the call and theytalk over me and say, okay, this
(18:50):
is what we need to talk abouttoday, that's a boundary issue,
that's not a red flag, that's aI'm not working with this person
if they can't even let me openmy own call.
So I find out a lot aboutclients in that first call.
Did you do discovery calls,sarah?
Sarah Greesonbach (19:03):
Yeah, definitely, and I agree.
I'm thinking of this lesson Ilearned from Ashley Ambrose, who
would start meetings even whenshe was really not the senior
person in the meeting, insteadof saying thank you for taking
the call or thank you for thisopportunity to learn about the
business Right away.
(19:23):
It was a positioning thing tosay I'm so glad I could meet
with you today, I'm so glad wecould make time for this,
because if you don't go intothat call believing that you are
a peer to your clients, that'swhere the partnership starts.
So if you go on there feelinglike you're about to get
interviewed, they're going togrill you.
They're going to see if you'regood enough to work for them.
All of that would just give mea panic attack, the first couple
(19:44):
of years for sure.
So it wasn't until I decidedwait, I'm going to see if I want
to work with them.
If I don't want to work withthem, I'll see if I can connect
them with the best person to dothe job.
Suddenly, there's no pressurefor me.
Treasa Edmond (19:57):
How do you see setting clear boundaries
actually contributing tobuilding stronger partnerships
with clients, and maybe weshould talk about what a
partnership with a client lookslike too be so different
depending on what service you'reoffering, but in my mind it
(20:18):
comes down to two people whorespect the other person's
function.
Sarah Greesonbach (20:21):
Maybe that's it.
So, instead of a client comingto the call and thinking this is
a little writer monkey that Iwill put in my cage and it will
deliver 1000 words at a rate offive cents per word for the next
three months, and if they don't, I'll just take away its
bananas, that's not apartnership.
(20:41):
That's someone trying to getaway with hiring an employee but
also not paying or treatingthem well, whereas if it's two
equals meeting or two peersmeeting, it's I'm a marketer.
I have a need.
Equals meeting or two peersmeeting, it's I'm a marketer.
I have a need.
We know all of our content andour positioning and blah, blah,
blah, but no one is good withwords.
To put it together, you are aperson who is good with words.
(21:03):
Are you willing to help us putall of this into words?
I think that's at the mostbasic level.
That's what I'm looking for.
Treasa Edmond (21:11):
Yeah me too.
I like to say it's both peopleare experts, or both
organizations, because you haveyour business and they have
their business.
Both sides are experts, andit's letting each person be the
expert when they need to be.
I'm the expert at managing thisclient relationship, because
it's what I do.
I'm the expert at writing thiscontent or doing the content
(21:33):
strategy, because that's what Ido.
You're the expert at yourbusiness and I really need you
to tell me about that so I cando what I do and I'm going to
respect that.
So it's a respect thing, isn'tit?
Sarah Greesonbach (21:43):
And the right person wants that.
I'm going to use stronglanguage, but I feel like only
an abuser steps into arelationship thinking how they
can get one over on the otherperson and profit off of their
work, like that kind of attitudeof like you're going to come in
.
I reviewed language for this.
Today.
Someone got a response from aclient where they were like I
(22:06):
locked the client into thecontract and then you just
fulfill the work.
Like they use the language of Ilocked the client.
And it's just this idea that I'mgoing to see people as things
and I'm going to use them aswell as I can to make a profit,
and I just don't think asolopreneur business can operate
like that.
I think it because of thesolopreneur part, the people
part.
(22:26):
It has to be a human experienceand human exchange of value.
Treasa Edmond (22:28):
And that's a really good thing to point out
is I get pushback on this.
People say, if I want to be ina partnership with my clients,
I'm not going to sign.
The people that I currentlyhave or the people I currently
work with wouldn't do that.
This is another tough lovemoment.
Not every person is meant to beyour client and not every
(22:49):
person is a good client or notevery company is a good client.
You have to decide where yourboundaries lie and whether or
not you're willing to work withthat, and I think that's a big
part of building a partnershipis you have to know what you're
willing to allow before you evereven sign a contract with
someone.
Sarah Greesonbach (23:08):
Yeah, if is a really important conjunction
here.
Yeah, if you want better payfor fewer hours with better
people, then you really need tofind people who are willing to
give you that you can't.
It's the Dr Phil thing, likeknocking on a door that they
can't open.
If somebody doesn't see writerslike that and is not willing to
(23:32):
see them like that, you wouldneed to decide if you're willing
to be their client or if you'rewilling to have them as a
client.
Treasa Edmond (23:38):
Yeah, this conversation.
I had office hours for mycommunity today and this
conversation came up in it.
I had just responded to aLinkedIn post.
That was my response wasprofessionally salty.
Let's say that they weretalking about their hiring
process for freelancers.
Well, you don't, you just don't.
(23:59):
I think how we use words todescribe what we do is vitally
important, especially if you'rea writer.
You are not being hired by aclient, you are partnering with
a client.
That's a very subtle mindsetshift, but it means the world in
how you respond to thatrelationship and how your client
responds to the relationship.
If you react as an employee,your client is going to treat
(24:22):
you as an employee.
I get in trouble with myselfsometimes for saying this, but
90% of the time, if you'rehaving a problem with a client,
the issue isn't with the client,it's with you and your failure
to maintain your boundaries orset expectations.
Issue isn't with the client,it's with you and your failure
to maintain your boundaries orset expectations or communicate
clearly with the client, becauseif you do all of those things,
you're protecting yourself fromyeah, that's a lot of
(24:45):
responsibility.
It is a lot of responsibility totake.
It is responsibility, people,really don't want that.
But if you do it right,everything goes smoothly and you
end up working only with thepeople you should be working
with, and then it's not even anissue.
It's not work.
Then it's something that youhave set up.
I have systems at this point, Ihave standard operating
(25:08):
procedures and I have anonboarding package and an
offboarding package.
It's documents I send toclients and I have emails for
smaller clients and if I'mworking on a content strategy,
it's a full-on PDF document.
It tells them all the thingsand then I reiterate it in my
kickoff call and it's part of myprocess.
It does not take me any extratime and I don't have those
(25:30):
types of problems anymore thosetypes of problems anymore.
Sarah Greesonbach (25:38):
I'm nodding emphatically.
I think it's.
It's just worth pointing out topeople.
If this sounds reallycumbersome, it should, because
you are picking up a lot ofresponsibility, but that is what
makes you strong enough, likelifting weights at the gym.
Picking up that responsibilityis what makes you strong enough
to bear these higher fees andmore time to yourself and more
respect from your clients.
That's the process that'shappening.
Treasa Edmond (26:00):
It's the difference between running your
business and letting your clientrun your business for you.
nothing positive can come out ofletting your client run your
business for you Nothing.
So you just have to do that,and I think that's one of the
(26:21):
biggest boundaries we can set,and that one's totally for
ourselves.
If we fall down, if we fumblethe ball, if we fumble the ball,
if we do whatever metaphor youwant to use here if we drop the
ball and don't do something, andthen our client reacts the way
a normal human being does and weget upset about it, that's an
(26:44):
us problem, that's not a themproblem.
I think that's one of thehardest things about boundaries,
and I think that's why a lot ofpeople think it's a dirty word,
because boundaries are for us,they're not for the other people
.
Sarah Greesonbach (26:58):
Truly.
Treasa Edmond (27:00):
It's like being in a personal relationship,
right, sarah?
Have you ever gotten mad atyour husband because he didn't
do something?
You didn't tell him he neededto do Me, so he just didn't know
, he didn't know Me.
And then you're like dude, whydidn't you do that?
Sarah Greesonbach (27:13):
Not me.
Treasa Edmond (27:14):
It all comes back to communication.
It's human and we learn from itand we do better the next time.
Sarah Greesonbach (27:20):
I just have.
This is freaky.
I have the perfect example foryou today, because I had this
miscommunication with my husbandearlier today where I was
deciding which day to go to thesauna which is like a medical
thing I do for some of thehealth stuff and I asked would
it be okay if I went to thesauna tomorrow evening, which we
have two kids, so the eveningis very full of things to do and
(27:45):
he got really almost offendedlike yes, yes, it's fine, jeez.
And so later I was able to sayso I was trying to give you a
chance to tell me if you wantedme home or not, and it seemed
like you took that as an insult.
What's going on?
And he was able to explain whyhe reacted that way.
And it was just this littlemicrocosm of the way we can
(28:05):
miscommunicate when we don'teven intend to, with someone
I've known for 16 years.
And it could have been a fightif we didn't stop and have this
conversation and communicate.
And now I know how to ask itdifferently in the future.
So it's not, it's.
He doesn't hear me sayingyou're incompetent, I probably
(28:25):
need to be here tomorrow, right?
And instead he can hear I careabout you and I want you to be
comfortable.
Are you comfortable?
If I do blank, it makes all thedifference.
Treasa Edmond (28:36):
Yeah, it does, and it matters with our clients
because they're dealing.
This is something we need torealize.
When we're dealing with aclient, they're one person or
one company to us, but we areone of many to them, we're one
of the many things that needtheir time and need their
attention, and they resent it insome form, even if they don't
mean to.
(28:56):
If a client asks for something,it's our responsibility to say
okay, this is what you're askingfor.
What do you want the outcome tobe?
Because understanding theoutcomes will often change the
entire perspective of theproject, because what they're
saying is one thing and that'swhat it means to them in-house
in their business language, butit means a completely different
(29:17):
thing to us.
Communication is fraught withperil I think everyone will
agree with that and sometimesyou have to redefine very simple
words to make sure you'retalking about the same thing
truly, yeah, they're too busyfor us to play coy.
Sarah Greesonbach (29:32):
Yeah, and vice versa.
Treasa Edmond (29:34):
Yeah, they just want you to be straightforward
and do the thing.
So, speaking of that, whatstrategies, sarah, do you think
that we can use more totransition from that order,
taker slash, employee role tomore of a collaborative partner,
because I know that there aredefinitely things you should be
doing to make that transition.
Sarah Greesonbach (29:53):
Well, very similar to what we've said, how
boundaries are a you problem,not a them problem.
I think this can be an usinitiative too, when it comes to
doing the mindset work andidentity work that would let you
step into a conversation andstart to feel like a peer.
I work with a lot of people whoare, even if they've achieved
(30:14):
some kind of senior role or eveneducation, like they've hit the
terminal degree.
They still don't feel like theybelong there or deserve to be
speaking.
Maybe they've had some toxicwork experiences of their own.
So doing that work to almostscreen yourself for any
behaviors that could come off asmore junior and see like why do
(30:36):
I do that?
Why do I think that Readingbooks like Playing Big by Tara
Moore and the Big Leap by GayHendricks, stuff like that, to
really build up your internaldensity of being able to show up
to that conversation andactually be a whole person on it
I feel like that is the partthat we overlook a lot.
Treasa Edmond (30:54):
Yeah, you've made the mindset shift which
mindset's huge.
I talk about mindset a lot.
You've made the mindset shift.
You have positioned yourself tobe more of a partner.
You believe in yourself or atleast you're training yourself
to believe in yourself that youcan do this thing.
You do belong here.
You are an expert in this.
How, then, do you communicatethat expertise to your clients
(31:17):
and set that foundation for thepartnership without coming
across as confrontational?
Because I know a lot of peopleI've seen this happen.
They will start a new thing andthen they'll tell a client I do
this thing too.
I think you should hire me forit.
Or they just forget thatthere's wooing involved.
There is wooing.
(31:38):
This is a relationship andrelationships require wooing.
So how can they do that?
Sarah Greesonbach (31:43):
Well, I have a really annoying trick answer
for that because in my mind,like when you're once you do
that work like a lot of it isabout trusting yourself and
knowing what to say, like almostreconnecting with your
intuition and corny stuff likethat that once I do that work,
I'm way more comfortable showingup to a call without preparing
(32:05):
and without knowing what I'mgoing to say or knowing what
they're going to say, or feelinglike I'll be pressured to say
yes to something, because I canjust show up and be and from my
perspective, that's what's givenme the most peace in my
business, both with clients andin my coaching work is knowing
that how I am right now in thismoment, is enough.
So I can have a couple notesjotted down or stuff I want to
(32:28):
remember, but there's not a lotof lines or tips or hacks I have
to remember because I just showup and be me.
Treasa Edmond (32:35):
Now, this isn't on the docket to talk about
today, but I think we shouldhave Sarah back in the future to
talk about this.
Mindset matters.
And how we think and how weprocess thoughts matter, and
it's not necessarily woo-woo.
Sarah Greesonbach (32:50):
I've been biting my lip to try to not say
the word woo the whole time andyou just blew it, teresa, come
on, no one can talk about thiswithout saying woo at some point
.
Treasa Edmond (33:02):
Because people think it's this like
metaphysical thing.
It's out there, it's thatperson standing in front of the
mirror going I'm okay, you'reokay, it's come so far.
From that, there is actualscience behind rewiring your
thought processes and I thinksomeday we need to have an
entire conversation about that,because I think it is so
(33:23):
important in boundaries and inyour client relationships.
Sarah Greesonbach (33:26):
We can tell people to set a boundary.
We can put that on automatedsound like in loss, where it was
repeating that number for like40 years.
We can say that forever and ifyou do not believe that you
deserve to say no to something,it will never click.
It just won't work Like youhave to do that work.
And my first counter to someonewho doesn't like looking in the
(33:49):
mirror and saying you're okayis just think of all the
messages we've probably gottenfrom like age five to 15, from
everybody outside of us andinside of us saying we aren't
okay.
Doesn't it make sense?
We'd need to tell ourselveswe're okay a little bit to like
catch up on all the damagethat's happened.
Yeah, the more I work withpeople, I just see oh, I'm
(34:13):
trying not to use such strongwords like abuse, but it is like
the human condition is reallytough on us and we are doing our
best to get through it and itis really difficult.
Even when we've gone to schooland we've done the perfect
grades and we have the perfectfamily, like all that garbage,
it's still really hard.
Our minds need support to makeit through all the things we're
(34:34):
trying to do.
Treasa Edmond (34:35):
Yeah, and if you're not at the point where
you can tell yourself somethingand believe that it's true over
what someone else says, you needto do some mindset work.
Sarah Greesonbach (34:44):
That was my Frankenstein agreement.
Treasa Edmond (34:49):
All right.
So let's talk about the balancebetween being flexible for
clients and maintaining thoseboundaries that we've
successfully set at this pointthat we need for a successful
partnership.
And you agree, right that youneed boundaries for a successful
partnership.
So how do you recommend to yourclients?
So let's say I'm a client for asecond and I have this issue.
(35:11):
I've set my boundaries.
I'm pretty good at it.
About 80% of the time I set thescope, I set my rates.
I've really gotten pretty goodat running my business.
But this one client alwayswants stuff last minute, even if
they knew about it six monthsin advance.
How are you going to tell methat I need to stop bending over
backwards to take care of whatthey need and then explain to me
(35:34):
when it is OK to be flexible?
Sarah Greesonbach (35:38):
Oh sorry, Frankenstein mode again I would
start.
I really like to just askquestions and get to the bottom
of things, because usuallythere's almost always a
connection to some kind of pastevent with the behavior that
we're doing today.
So there's going to besomething in there that is
making you feel like you have tosay yes to this person, Even
(35:58):
though logically they'redisorganized and this is their
problem, but you want to be theone who saves the day.
I imagine in the course ofconversation we get to some
ideas where one we could startgetting a little proactive about
this one we could start gettinga little proactive about this
and setting up a reminder foryourself quarterly to send an
email to them to tell them tostart thinking about ideas so
that it's not so late and thenset those boundaries in advance.
(36:19):
Please start thinking aboutcontent ideas, because all need
to know the topics by blank dateif you want the drafts by blank
date and just truly puttingsome guardrails around the
client and almost treating themlike a beloved child who needs
some guidance with gettingthings done.
Treasa Edmond (36:39):
And I'm going to go out on a limb and say they're
actually going to like that,because instead of them having
to figure out all of thedeadlines, you've just given
them one.
All they have to do is plug itin the spreadsheet and do the
thing by then.
So it really does help when youmake it easy on your clients,
and I set deadlines in everyproject.
I want to backtrack a littlebit, because we brought this up
(37:00):
a couple of times and we've notreally addressed it.
Let's talk about the dangers ofhaving a hero complex and being
a freelancer, because there area few.
Sarah Greesonbach (37:11):
Oh yeah, and that has come up a lot for me,
like in my own professionaldevelopment work, especially
like I bring up the Enneagram alot, but I'm an Enneagram eight,
which I suspect you might be aswell and what I realized is it
was a.
It was another way for me totry to control the situation.
If I can save the day or fixthe problem, then I know that
(37:31):
people will depend on me andI'll be more secure in the
relationship kind of thing.
So I had to really unpack whatam I doing and why, what's
actually appropriate for me todo, what do I want to do, and
then mix all that into a betterrelationship.
Treasa Edmond (37:44):
Finally found a phrase that works for me,
because you're right, I do wantto save the day, I want to help
them, I want to get the kudos atthe end, I want all of those
things, but ultimately I want tosolve the problem for people,
which isn't helpful for thepeople or for me.
I learned really quickly Notreally quickly, actually.
(38:05):
I learned this because of mytoxic clients Slowly and
painfully, yeah, and I learnedit and I started saying it to
myself.
And then the designer that Iwork with also worked with a
toxic client, so I taught it tothem and I actually would say
this to my client.
I recommend you don't say thisto a client.
I said it to them because Ireally hope they just stop
(38:26):
working with me and I wouldn'thave to fire them.
And it never worked.
But my whole viewpoint becameyour lack of preparation does
not constitute an emergency onmy behalf.
Sarah Greesonbach (38:38):
That's a common Marine phrase.
Treasa Edmond (38:40):
I learned growing up.
Sarah Greesonbach (38:41):
We're all pretty familiar with the idea
that the task will expand to thetime you allow it, and I think
clients will expand to theboundaries you allow them.
They're like a beautiful,beautiful goopy mess and if you
don't put that little wall up,they'll just goop right into you
and it doesn't really.
It doesn't track with them thatit's causing a problem, but
(39:02):
then you're over there drowningin goop.
Treasa Edmond (39:03):
Yeah.
Sarah Greesonbach (39:04):
Like you've got to push that wall up.
Treasa Edmond (39:06):
Yeah, absolutely, and politely.
Sarah Greesonbach (39:08):
But yeah, the other one is proper prior
planning prevents poorperformance was a big one for my
dad.
Treasa Edmond (39:16):
If you're working with a client, if you build
this partnership we're talkingabout, you can gradually guide
them to proper processes andprocedures that make it easier
for our relationship to workeven better, work even better.
And sometimes that's a matterof saying it would work a lot
better for me if we could dothis and this.
(39:36):
What would make it easier foryou?
So it always has to be somegive and take there.
It's a communication issue.
If they knew about somethingsix months ago and didn't tell
you about it until yesterday andthey need it tomorrow, you
charge them extra for that.
And they need it tomorrow, youcharge them extra for that.
That's their mistake.
There are consequences to theiractions and that's the only
consequence we can give them,other than walking away from the
(39:59):
relationship.
Sarah Greesonbach (40:00):
Ooh, I was going to say that's the language
they understand, but I alsoagree that's the consequence
they understand.
I need to curb my behaviors orthis person will leave.
Treasa Edmond (40:13):
One of the problem areas I see that causes
a lot of boundary and clientrelationship issues is a lack of
effective communication.
And when I say a lack ofeffective communication, once
again I'm putting all of this onthe freelancer, because it's up
to you to make sure that yourclient is effectively
communicating with you.
You have to ask the questions,you have to get the information
(40:36):
so that you can do your job.
So do you work with people onhow to effectively communicate,
sarah?
Sarah Greesonbach (40:43):
Yeah, it comes up sometimes.
It does seem to be an instinctpeople have.
I think what I'm going to seemore of is clients being too
busy or even intentionally notreading what you're saying.
So I think having an awarenessof whether a client reads the
emails or doesn't, and whetheryou can discuss it by a call
(41:04):
instead, is going to be animportant part of that, because
there are I'm thinking of aclient situation that a coaching
client had where it was almostlike the client would write back
and just almost as if theperson hadn't written them at
all.
So they were having a hard timefeeling understood.
Treasa Edmond (41:22):
And that's something you need to look at.
If your preferred communicationstyle is email and you have a
client that needs to have aphone call to hear anything
you're saying, that's not aclient you can work with.
If your communication stylesdon't mesh, you either need to
be able to bend or walk away.
Sarah Greesonbach (41:39):
Or maybe you're a person who prefers to
have calls as well.
Treasa Edmond (41:42):
Yeah, if you are, then it's a match made in
heaven, right, and a lot of thatis a mindset thing, but we need
to look at the words we'reusing.
So if you say, when I work formy clients, your clients are
coming into that relationshipthinking you work for them.
If you say, when I partner withmy clients, they come into it
feeling like an equal partnerand you don't have to fight that
(42:03):
uphill battle.
What advice would you give tonew freelancers, sarah, who are
just starting to navigate clientrelationships and they're
really uncertain of how to stickthose boundaries in there and
how to set it up for themselvesso that they can be in a
partnership with their clientsinstead of an unequal
relationship?
Sarah Greesonbach (42:22):
I'm going to make it real simple and break
into those people's minds andassure them that it's not them,
it's the space between them andthe client that needs to be
worked on and developed.
I see people taking a lot ofresponsibility or taking things
very personally.
If you don't hear back from aprospecting thing or if somebody
(42:43):
says no to your pricing thatkind of stuff, and I've yet to
encounter a situation where itreally is that freelancer's
problem or fault or whatever wewant to attribute it to.
So I'd start there.
Treasa Edmond (42:58):
I actually saw a LinkedIn post about this from a
CEO of a large business whooccasionally works with
freelancers and otherconsultants, agencies, whatever
and he was talking about thisvery issue.
He said if he could change onething, he would change the other
person's perception of whathappened in that decision-making
(43:22):
process, and his viewpoint ishe has to make 50 decisions a
day and those decisions, everysingle one, has to be what's in
the best long-term interest forthe business.
He has not in his memory evermade a decision that hinged on
the person that he was makingthe decision about it was always
(43:44):
a business decision and whatwas right long-term for the
business.
And sometimes that's just notyou.
So I think that's something weneed to take to heart.
We cannot and it's so mucheasier to say this than do it
right we cannot take itpersonally because it's not
about us.
And I try to put it back on mybusiness.
My business was not the rightdecision for them at this point,
because if you can create thatseparation, I think it just
(44:07):
makes it easier to not take itpersonally.
Sarah Greesonbach (44:09):
Because there is a separation, even if you
don't feel it yet.
Yeah, I think that's the coollesson for newbies.
Treasa Edmond (44:15):
Yeah, so, sarah, if people want to find you and
follow you and learn more aboutyou and all of that how would
they do that?
Sarah Greesonbach (44:28):
Well, you would come and have a great time
with me on LinkedIn and fromthere.
Treasa Edmond (44:36):
I have a podcast and an email list and all that
good stuff, but it's mainlyabout making our day a little
lighter, a little funnier, allright.
So last question, sarah, towrap all of this up what advice
would you give to serviceproviders who are looking to
create lasting, successfulpartnerships with their clients?
Sarah Greesonbach (44:48):
My advice would be that the first lasting,
successful partnership you haveto have is with yourself.
So it's all super corny but ifyou aren't developing who you
are as a business owner, assomeone off the clock, like all
those things, it's just a shellof a person that you're
presenting to clients, and Ithink that's where a lot of
(45:10):
third year slump kind of stuffcomes from is if we're just
focusing on business metrics andthe data around prospecting but
we're not doing the reading,doing the journaling, reflecting
, networking, like doing allthat kind of stuff.
Treasa Edmond (45:23):
Do you have resources available to help
people do that, Sarah?
Is that something they can getin your newsletter?
Sarah Greesonbach (45:27):
So I host Slack sprints for Unlurk
LinkedIn to help you find yourvoice with that, and then Unlurk
your journal, and a lot of thatfocuses on personal development
and reflection and that kind ofstuff.
Treasa Edmond (45:39):
Thank you for being here with us this week and
come back next week for anothergreat guest host.
Sarah Greesonbach (45:44):
Thank you.
Treasa Edmond (45:45):
Take care everyone.
Welcome back to Boss Responses.
Do you ever feel like you'rewalking a tightrope in your
freelance business, trying tobalance keeping clients happy
while also maintaining yoursanity?
I think we've all been there atone point or another.
Today we're tackling the twopillars of a thriving client
relationship boundaries andpartnerships.
Our special guest co-host thisweek is Sarah Greesonbach.
(00:22):
If you haven't listened to thefirst four episodes, I highly
recommend making time.
They are full of valuableinformation.
Sarah is a seasoned B2B contentexpert who's worked with
Fortune 100 brands and countlessCEOs, helping them transform
their expertise into high-impactmarketing content.
She's the founder of B2BContent Studio, a six-figure
(00:43):
writing business, and the B2BWriting Institute, where she
trains the next generation ofin-demand B2B writers.
Her journey has taken her fromteaching high school English to
ghostwriting for high-trafficpublications to becoming a
trusted partner for topmarketing agencies.
I'm thrilled to have her herethis week as she shares her
thoughts on building healthyclient relationships.
Today's episode is a truemasterclass and I hope you get
(01:07):
as much out of it as I have.
If you're a freelancer, businessowner or anyone who deals with
clients, you're in the rightplace.
I'm your host, Treasa Edmond.
I've been dealing with clientsand running my business for
nearly two decades and in thattime I've dealt with my share of
doubt, imposter syndrome andnot knowing what to say when a
(01:28):
client asked a question I wasn'tready for.
I created this podcast toempower you with the boss
responses you need to grow yourbusiness.
Each week, my guest co-host andI will bring you five episodes
packed with practical insights.
Monday through Thursday, weanswer your questions, and
Fridays we dive deep to explorehow our co-hosts embrace their
(01:51):
role as the boss of theirbusiness.
Welcome to Boss Responses.
All right, Sarah, it's time wewant to learn more about you
before we talk about boundariesand creating relationships.
So tell me a little bit aboutyou and what you do.
Sarah Greesonbach (02:09):
Thank you.
I'm excited to be here for dayfive, to get real, and I'm
hoping I can turn some of thesequestions back to you and get
some answers as well.
We can do that, excellent.
So my name is Sarah and I'm abusiness coach for freelance
writers, mainly people whooverthink every move and
decision they've ever made intheir lives, and I help them get
(02:30):
it together and build abusiness that is inclusive of
work but then also a real lifeand having fun.
So a lot of what I do is talkabout art and stationery and
fountain pens, and then alsoboundaries and clients and B2B
marketing and writing.
Treasa Edmond (02:48):
So essentially, Sarah does every day on an
individual basis with herclients what we try to do on
this podcast.
Now, did you start out as afreelancer before you switched
over to coaching?
Sarah Greesonbach (02:58):
Yeah, I was born a.
No, I'm messing with you.
No, I thought I was going tosave the world by being a ninth
grade English teacher in thecountry and it was horrific yeah
and I made it two and a halfyears before I left after
Christmas break and I justdidn't go back so.
I got a job in writing andediting and just kind of
(03:19):
returned to my roots in writing.
Treasa Edmond (03:20):
In English it's's nice, isn't it?
Sarah Greesonbach (03:23):
It was amazing that first moment I
realized I could go to thebathroom whenever I wanted, like
to sit in a cubicle in an airconditioned room and just get up
and leave.
It was truly extraordinary.
So I think maybe that was eventhe start of my real development
of boundaries and understandingwhat that means in a workplace.
(03:44):
I think.
So it's amazing, looking back,how relevant that is to what
we're talking about today.
Treasa Edmond (03:49):
So you worked for another business then, when you
first started doing the writingand editing, that's correct.
Sarah Greesonbach (03:54):
I left teaching and got a job in
government contracting as awriter and editor, and then I
tried to follow my husband downto where he was in a city and I
got into a marketing startup,and so that was my first real
exposure to marketing andcontent marketing and how this
all works.
But they laid me off after sixmonths.
Treasa Edmond (04:13):
A startup and I was crushed.
Sarah Greesonbach (04:14):
Yes, a startup marketing agency.
Treasa Edmond (04:17):
Yeah, so that's not fun.
Sarah Greesonbach (04:20):
It was not.
Treasa Edmond (04:21):
Did you enjoy it while you were there, though?
Sarah Greesonbach (04:23):
Yeah, I think that really laid the groundwork
of what writing is and whatmarketing and copywriting is and
what it could be.
So when I got laid off, Ithought to myself well, if this
dude, this rando, is sellingwhat I do to these people, is
that something I could do?
Could I just sell it directly?
So I think I really got mystart understanding the role of
(04:44):
the agency, but also wonderingif I could just do that without
somebody else getting theoverhead.
And it worked just wonderfully.
Right away.
I hit that content marketingwave in like 2014, where
everybody and their motherneeded to have a blog, and I
also hit Jonathan Stark andBrennan Dunn and Ash Ambrose and
(05:05):
different people who weretalking about really owning your
value and value based rates andproject based rates.
Treasa Edmond (05:11):
Yeah.
Sarah Greesonbach (05:11):
So I pretty quickly switched to that as well
, and I think that's what reallycemented me.
Being able to do this for afull time role is getting away
from hourly pretty muchimmediately.
Treasa Edmond (05:21):
So how long did you do that before you became a
coach?
Sarah Greesonbach (05:27):
much immediately.
So how long did you do that?
Before you became a coach, Iwas a freelancer full time from
like 2014 to 2016, 2017.
And around the time go figurethat I had two kids.
I also was getting justincreasingly sick.
And now I'm in the healingcycle in a couple of years
through feeling a lot better.
But at the time, looking back,I realized like I kind of
thought I was dying.
(05:48):
So I was bringing together allof the stuff I'd been doing and
all of the great things thatwere happening in my career, and
I started putting togethercurriculums for how to learn B2B
writing, how to transition intoit, how to learn how to
freelance when you're just anormal person and you don't know
how to sell stuff, cause thatwas a really hard thing for me
to learn.
And so around 2018, 2019, Irealized man maybe.
(06:11):
I am a teacher and I just gotreally burned, so I came back
around to it and then, throughmy work with my coach, ed, I
realized coaching is a beautifuloutlet for all of these things
that I love to do.
So that's how we ended up here.
Treasa Edmond (06:24):
Yeah, that's very similar to my journey, so
that's pretty interesting.
Sarah Greesonbach (06:28):
Go on.
Treasa Edmond (06:30):
No, I actually I had the toxic client I worked
for for years.
I actually went to college tobe a teacher and realized in
college that was not the worldfor me.
And then I hopscotched aroundon different jobs and I finally
started working in a magazine asan editorial assistant and then
I started writing some and thenI walked away from that and I
went back to dissertationediting and that's actually what
(06:52):
put me back in the editing andwriting world and I started
freelancing and it was wonderful.
And then the whole pandemicthing made me take a really deep
look at what I was doing withmy life and was I happy where I
was?
And I leaned more into thefreelancer community there and I
realized I really liked helpingpeople and answering questions
(07:13):
and helping them deal with theirtricky client situations.
And from there it kind of seguedinto.
Now I'm doing more coaching andteaching than actually writing
for clients, but I still do it.
I just pick them very carefully.
And then content strategy aswell.
I still do it, but I pick theclients that I really want to
work with and the rest of it isteaching people and I love it.
(07:35):
But it's different kind ofteaching and coaching.
Sarah Greesonbach (07:38):
Yeah, and I feel like with the two of us
what people often see from theoutside is just a sense of
confidence and assurance and youknow, don't let clients take
advantage of you, that kind ofstuff and it's almost like
people want some of that forthemselves.
So who I work with most oftenis like Enneagram fives and twos
(07:58):
, who find that just so stuck intheir head and so used to doing
what other people want them todo, that when they have the
chance to do what they want todo, they're not really sure what
that is, and then they don'tknow how to say it.
They don't know how to enforcethose boundaries or make a
different decision than whatsomeone else wants them to do.
And I just get so high off ofthat when I could help someone
(08:22):
who's such a gentle soul likeactually calmly and gently put a
boundary in place.
It's just the most beautifulthing.
Treasa Edmond (08:28):
The moment it clicks.
I'm so happy for people whenthey do that, and that's one of
the things with my strategybosses, community is watching
the growth process of learningstrategy and becoming more
confident in it, and, even ifthey're not completely confident
, they borrow my confidence, andI think that's okay and I think
it's great and I love doing it.
But confidence is not the topicwe're here to talk about today.
(08:53):
We're going to talk about atopic that I'm really passionate
about, and that's actually twotopics that work in tandem.
The first is boundaries, whichI know some people think is a
dirty, dirty, dirty word, andI'm hoping we can prove them
wrong today and the second ishow to be a partner to your
clients instead of being asubstitute employee, because
(09:14):
that sucks.
So let's start our discussionabout boundaries, because I know
this is something you're prettypassionate about, too.
How do you define healthyboundaries in a freelancer
client relationship?
Sarah Greesonbach (09:27):
I think a healthy boundary is being able
to say what you do and don'twant to do very clearly and
respectfully, and then stickingwith it.
Treasa Edmond (09:37):
Yeah.
Sarah Greesonbach (09:38):
And I think it's a boundary violation when
we say we're happy to dosomething and we really aren't.
Yeah, I'm stealing that fromeither Brene Brown or Tara Moore
, who's like people pleasing isactually lying to people because
it's making them think that youwant to do something you don't
want to do, and that can be aninteresting thing for a people
pleaser to realize.
Is I'm saying yes wheneverything in me is screaming no
(10:01):
?
Why am I doing this?
Treasa Edmond (10:02):
And I think one of the best things you can ever
do for yourself as a person,much less for your business, is
embrace the power of the word no.
It's a good word and it's aword that you should learn and
it doesn't hurt anyone.
And we were talking before weeven started talking and
recording these episodes aboutboundaries.
Episodes about boundaries and arevelation that I had not long
(10:29):
back, because of a TikToker whowas talking about boundaries and
personal relationships.
And it's the point thatboundaries are not for the other
person.
And this is the feedback I geta lot when I talk about
boundaries is I don't want tocontrol my clients.
I can't tell my clients what todo.
One, you're not the whole pointof a guidelines for both of you
(10:52):
to have a successfulrelationship.
And when you set a boundary,you're setting a guideline or,
as I told Sarah earlier, a linein the sand that shouldn't be
crossed.
And the whole point of theboundary is, if they do cross
that line, both of you knowswhat's happening.
Which means, if I have aboundary that a client shouldn't
call me after hours, if I havea boundary that a client
(11:12):
shouldn't call me after hoursand they do it anyway, they know
that I'm not going to respondto them and I know, if they
continue to do this, this is nota client I'm going to work with
, so it's just settingboundaries that are a helpful
guideline for you on how yourespond to certain situations.
So that's all a boundary is.
Can you, sarah, share a time oran example of a time when you
(11:35):
had to establish or reallyreinforce boundaries with a
client?
How did you approach that?
Sarah Greesonbach (11:54):
term deadlines over the holidays
Because personally I have apretty strong sense of identity.
I'm pretty direct in mostsituations and I'm pretty good
with boundaries because I'vebeen working on it so long.
But for some reason, if someoneneeds something from me two
days before Thanksgiving,everything in me screams yes.
Everything in me wants to solvethat problem for them and just
be the one who fixed it.
And I ruined years of holidaysby saying yes to things over
(12:19):
Thanksgiving, over Christmas,over New Year's, and what I had
to learn was pretty much everysingle time I did that they
didn't even look at it until aweek after the holiday and I
just ruined it for me and myfamily for no reason, because I
had this impulse to just helpand save and I had to really get
(12:40):
clear on A there was nopositive outcome to that.
It didn't actually saveanybody's life.
And then B I'm allowed to havea holiday.
A lot of the boundary stuffmixes over with mindset because
it's really about an identity ofI'm a person who's allowed to
say no and that's okay, and manypeople just don't have that.
(13:00):
I feel lucky I do have that atthe baseline and boundaries are
still hard, so imagine how hardit must be.
If you don't think, you'reallowed to say no.
Treasa Edmond (13:08):
Yeah, short deadline boundaries is one that
it's probably one of the firstboundaries I put in place.
For the same reason I'd missout on weekends or I'd have to
cancel a date night or whatever,because they needed something
really quickly.
And I was talking to a veteranfreelancer who had just started
coaching and they said what'sone problem?
These clients that wanteverything in two days and it
(13:35):
makes me put my entire life onhold and I'm really starting to
resent them.
And they said, well, theresentment's a you issue, not a
them issue.
And I'm like, no, it's them.
Sarah Greesonbach (13:45):
They're doing it.
Treasa Edmond (13:47):
They are the ones who are asking for the stuff
with unreasonable expectations.
And she said no, you are theone who is saying yes.
That means it's a you issue.
If you said no and they pushedit and forced you to do it at
gunpoint, then it's a them issue.
And I was like ow, so I'm likehow do I deal with that?
And she said you learn to sayno.
And I was like but I like theseclients.
And she said you learn to sayno to protect yourself.
(14:09):
And I'm like no, you don'tunderstand.
I really like working with them.
What if they go work withsomeone else?
She said then they weren't theright client.
And it was a lesson in mearguing and her smacking me up
beside the head with stuff.
But she eventually said find aworkaround.
She said charge more.
And I hadn't heard of rush feesbefore that, and I'm like what
are you talking about?
She said if they really wantedit and they're willing to pay a
(14:30):
rush fee, tell them you'llcharge twice as much, but you'll
have it done in that timeframe.
She said make sure your rushfee is painful enough for them
and happy enough for you thatyou don't mind missing out on
whatever you're going to missout on.
I did that and most of myclients all of a sudden weren't
in a hurry anymore and itchanged my life.
I started looking at other waysthat I could do the same thing.
(14:53):
But I will always charge a rushfee because I've worked on both
ends of the spectrum.
I've been the client and I'vehad the clients and I know that
when they want something nextweek, they don't usually want it
next week.
They don't need it next week.
That's just a deadline on aspreadsheet.
They're not going to touch itfor a month.
If they're willing to wait anextra week, I won't charge them
the rush fee.
(15:13):
If they want to pay the rushfee and they actually need it
quickly, then sure, let's talkabout that.
But yeah, that was my firstsituation and it was a rough
learning experience for me, butI've never looked back.
Sarah Greesonbach (15:25):
Yeah, and for a listener we'd want to
highlight you've already vettedyour clients to be reasonable
individuals who aren't going tomake demands on a stranger and
tell them to change theirschedule.
So, if you're listening to thisand you're thinking well, my
clients would never go for that.
Your clients could be badpeople and you might want to
(15:45):
find different ones.
Treasa Edmond (15:47):
Oh, I tried really hard not to laugh out
loud at that, but she's sayingthe truth.
People, it's a little bit ofthat tough love coming back.
It's carrying over fromyesterday Talking about this
issue.
Then, what are some of thecommon boundary issues, sarah,
that you see freelancers facing,and how can they really work to
start addressing thoseprofessionally instead of just
being reactive whenever thingsdon't go their way?
Sarah Greesonbach (16:10):
One that comes to mind is literally right
when you first start talking toa client.
I've been working with peoplelately who feel like if we had a
kickoff call and if I said I'minterested in working with them,
I'm now married to them and Ineed to move in, and if I don't,
I've broken promises and I'm aterrible person.
And I think that's a reallyimportant lesson to learn.
(16:33):
When you break out from being afull-time employee and you're
suddenly your own person andyou're out in the world,
literally nothing is set instone until it's in a contract
and you have money, and eventhen you can reverse many of
your decisions if a problemcomes up.
So the idea that you have somekind of loyalty or obligation to
someone because you chatted andbecause they really like you
(16:54):
and they're totally going topick you over all the other
writers there's still no realrelationship there.
You can have them in the wings,you can make some tentative
plans, but you don't want tocommit in your heart until
you've actually been paid.
Treasa Edmond (17:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
Let's talk about that for justa second.
So discovery calls are part ofmy process and I know there are
other freelancers who only do adiscovery situation through
email.
But I like looking in people'seyes and knowing what they're
thinking.
That discovery call or thatfirst communication, even if
it's by email, sets the tone forthe rest of your relationship
(17:27):
with that potential client.
I have a system that I'veworked years to perfect that
works for me.
This wouldn't work for everyone.
I get on that discovery call andit's not about the client
discovering what I do, it's mediscovering what the client
needs, 100%.
So I immediately thank them fortaking the time to come and
(17:49):
tell me more about their project.
That's how I do it.
And then I say let's go aheadand do introductions, and then
I'll jump right into go aheadand do introductions and then
I'll jump right into a couple ofquestions I have.
After the introductions Iimmediately say all right,
whenever you booked this call,you gave me some information
about the project.
And then I confirm their scopeand their budget and their
deadline, which are all on myqualifying form.
(18:09):
And I don't even get on thatcall, by the way, if any of
those are really off.
I from there talk more aboutwhat they want out of the
project and see whether or not Ican help them do what they want
.
And then the last five minutesof that 20-minute call is do you
have any questions for me?
Because I've already told themabout my working process and how
it will be and most of the timethey're like nope, that's great
(18:29):
.
I seldom don't convert adiscovery call because my
clients are looking for anexpert and they feel like they
found one because all they'vedone is talk about themselves
the entire time.
But in the process I've learnedif they have a problem, if I
try to start the call and theytalk over me and say, okay, this
(18:50):
is what we need to talk abouttoday, that's a boundary issue,
that's not a red flag, that's aI'm not working with this person
if they can't even let me openmy own call.
So I find out a lot aboutclients in that first call.
Did you do discovery calls,sarah?
Sarah Greesonbach (19:03):
Yeah, definitely, and I agree.
I'm thinking of this lesson Ilearned from Ashley Ambrose, who
would start meetings even whenshe was really not the senior
person in the meeting, insteadof saying thank you for taking
the call or thank you for thisopportunity to learn about the
business Right away.
(19:23):
It was a positioning thing tosay I'm so glad I could meet
with you today, I'm so glad wecould make time for this,
because if you don't go intothat call believing that you are
a peer to your clients, that'swhere the partnership starts.
So if you go on there feelinglike you're about to get
interviewed, they're going togrill you.
They're going to see if you'regood enough to work for them.
All of that would just give mea panic attack, the first couple
(19:44):
of years for sure.
So it wasn't until I decidedwait, I'm going to see if I want
to work with them.
If I don't want to work withthem, I'll see if I can connect
them with the best person to dothe job.
Suddenly, there's no pressurefor me.
Treasa Edmond (19:57):
How do you see setting clear boundaries
actually contributing tobuilding stronger partnerships
with clients, and maybe weshould talk about what a
partnership with a client lookslike too be so different
depending on what service you'reoffering, but in my mind it
(20:18):
comes down to two people whorespect the other person's
function.
Sarah Greesonbach (20:21):
Maybe that's it.
So, instead of a client comingto the call and thinking this is
a little writer monkey that Iwill put in my cage and it will
deliver 1000 words at a rate offive cents per word for the next
three months, and if they don't, I'll just take away its
bananas, that's not apartnership.
(20:41):
That's someone trying to getaway with hiring an employee but
also not paying or treatingthem well, whereas if it's two
equals meeting or two peersmeeting, it's I'm a marketer.
I have a need.
Equals meeting or two peersmeeting, it's I'm a marketer.
I have a need.
We know all of our content andour positioning and blah, blah,
blah, but no one is good withwords.
To put it together, you are aperson who is good with words.
(21:03):
Are you willing to help us putall of this into words?
I think that's at the mostbasic level.
That's what I'm looking for.
Treasa Edmond (21:11):
Yeah me too.
I like to say it's both peopleare experts, or both
organizations, because you haveyour business and they have
their business.
Both sides are experts, andit's letting each person be the
expert when they need to be.
I'm the expert at managing thisclient relationship, because
it's what I do.
I'm the expert at writing thiscontent or doing the content
(21:33):
strategy, because that's what Ido.
You're the expert at yourbusiness and I really need you
to tell me about that so I cando what I do and I'm going to
respect that.
So it's a respect thing, isn'tit?
Sarah Greesonbach (21:43):
And the right person wants that.
I'm going to use stronglanguage, but I feel like only
an abuser steps into arelationship thinking how they
can get one over on the otherperson and profit off of their
work, like that kind of attitudeof like you're going to come in
.
I reviewed language for this.
Today.
Someone got a response from aclient where they were like I
(22:06):
locked the client into thecontract and then you just
fulfill the work.
Like they use the language of Ilocked the client.
And it's just this idea that I'mgoing to see people as things
and I'm going to use them aswell as I can to make a profit,
and I just don't think asolopreneur business can operate
like that.
I think it because of thesolopreneur part, the people
part.
(22:26):
It has to be a human experienceand human exchange of value.
Treasa Edmond (22:28):
And that's a really good thing to point out
is I get pushback on this.
People say, if I want to be ina partnership with my clients,
I'm not going to sign.
The people that I currentlyhave or the people I currently
work with wouldn't do that.
This is another tough lovemoment.
Not every person is meant to beyour client and not every
(22:49):
person is a good client or notevery company is a good client.
You have to decide where yourboundaries lie and whether or
not you're willing to work withthat, and I think that's a big
part of building a partnershipis you have to know what you're
willing to allow before you evereven sign a contract with
someone.
Sarah Greesonbach (23:08):
Yeah, if is a really important conjunction
here.
Yeah, if you want better payfor fewer hours with better
people, then you really need tofind people who are willing to
give you that you can't.
It's the Dr Phil thing, likeknocking on a door that they
can't open.
If somebody doesn't see writerslike that and is not willing to
(23:32):
see them like that, you wouldneed to decide if you're willing
to be their client or if you'rewilling to have them as a
client.
Treasa Edmond (23:38):
Yeah, this conversation.
I had office hours for mycommunity today and this
conversation came up in it.
I had just responded to aLinkedIn post.
That was my response wasprofessionally salty.
Let's say that they weretalking about their hiring
process for freelancers.
Well, you don't, you just don't.
(23:59):
I think how we use words todescribe what we do is vitally
important, especially if you'rea writer.
You are not being hired by aclient, you are partnering with
a client.
That's a very subtle mindsetshift, but it means the world in
how you respond to thatrelationship and how your client
responds to the relationship.
If you react as an employee,your client is going to treat
(24:22):
you as an employee.
I get in trouble with myselfsometimes for saying this, but
90% of the time, if you'rehaving a problem with a client,
the issue isn't with the client,it's with you and your failure
to maintain your boundaries orset expectations.
Issue isn't with the client,it's with you and your failure
to maintain your boundaries orset expectations or communicate
clearly with the client, becauseif you do all of those things,
you're protecting yourself fromyeah, that's a lot of
(24:45):
responsibility.
It is a lot of responsibility totake.
It is responsibility, people,really don't want that.
But if you do it right,everything goes smoothly and you
end up working only with thepeople you should be working
with, and then it's not even anissue.
It's not work.
Then it's something that youhave set up.
I have systems at this point, Ihave standard operating
(25:08):
procedures and I have anonboarding package and an
offboarding package.
It's documents I send toclients and I have emails for
smaller clients and if I'mworking on a content strategy,
it's a full-on PDF document.
It tells them all the thingsand then I reiterate it in my
kickoff call and it's part of myprocess.
It does not take me any extratime and I don't have those
(25:30):
types of problems anymore thosetypes of problems anymore.
Sarah Greesonbach (25:38):
I'm nodding emphatically.
I think it's.
It's just worth pointing out topeople.
If this sounds reallycumbersome, it should, because
you are picking up a lot ofresponsibility, but that is what
makes you strong enough, likelifting weights at the gym.
Picking up that responsibilityis what makes you strong enough
to bear these higher fees andmore time to yourself and more
respect from your clients.
That's the process that'shappening.
Treasa Edmond (26:00):
It's the difference between running your
business and letting your clientrun your business for you.
nothing positive can come out ofletting your client run your
business for you Nothing.
So you just have to do that,and I think that's one of the
(26:21):
biggest boundaries we can set,and that one's totally for
ourselves.
If we fall down, if we fumblethe ball, if we fumble the ball,
if we do whatever metaphor youwant to use here if we drop the
ball and don't do something, andthen our client reacts the way
a normal human being does and weget upset about it, that's an
(26:44):
us problem, that's not a themproblem.
I think that's one of thehardest things about boundaries,
and I think that's why a lot ofpeople think it's a dirty word,
because boundaries are for us,they're not for the other people
.
Sarah Greesonbach (26:58):
Truly.
Treasa Edmond (27:00):
It's like being in a personal relationship,
right, sarah?
Have you ever gotten mad atyour husband because he didn't
do something?
You didn't tell him he neededto do Me, so he just didn't know
, he didn't know Me.
And then you're like dude, whydidn't you do that?
Sarah Greesonbach (27:13):
Not me.
Treasa Edmond (27:14):
It all comes back to communication.
It's human and we learn from itand we do better the next time.
Sarah Greesonbach (27:20):
I just have.
This is freaky.
I have the perfect example foryou today, because I had this
miscommunication with my husbandearlier today where I was
deciding which day to go to thesauna which is like a medical
thing I do for some of thehealth stuff and I asked would
it be okay if I went to thesauna tomorrow evening, which we
have two kids, so the eveningis very full of things to do and
(27:45):
he got really almost offendedlike yes, yes, it's fine, jeez.
And so later I was able to sayso I was trying to give you a
chance to tell me if you wantedme home or not, and it seemed
like you took that as an insult.
What's going on?
And he was able to explain whyhe reacted that way.
And it was just this littlemicrocosm of the way we can
(28:05):
miscommunicate when we don'teven intend to, with someone
I've known for 16 years.
And it could have been a fightif we didn't stop and have this
conversation and communicate.
And now I know how to ask itdifferently in the future.
So it's not, it's.
He doesn't hear me sayingyou're incompetent, I probably
(28:25):
need to be here tomorrow, right?
And instead he can hear I careabout you and I want you to be
comfortable.
Are you comfortable?
If I do blank, it makes all thedifference.
Treasa Edmond (28:36):
Yeah, it does, and it matters with our clients
because they're dealing.
This is something we need torealize.
When we're dealing with aclient, they're one person or
one company to us, but we areone of many to them, we're one
of the many things that needtheir time and need their
attention, and they resent it insome form, even if they don't
mean to.
(28:56):
If a client asks for something,it's our responsibility to say
okay, this is what you're askingfor.
What do you want the outcome tobe?
Because understanding theoutcomes will often change the
entire perspective of theproject, because what they're
saying is one thing and that'swhat it means to them in-house
in their business language, butit means a completely different
(29:17):
thing to us.
Communication is fraught withperil I think everyone will
agree with that and sometimesyou have to redefine very simple
words to make sure you'retalking about the same thing
truly, yeah, they're too busyfor us to play coy.
Sarah Greesonbach (29:32):
Yeah, and vice versa.
Treasa Edmond (29:34):
Yeah, they just want you to be straightforward
and do the thing.
So, speaking of that, whatstrategies, sarah, do you think
that we can use more totransition from that order,
taker slash, employee role tomore of a collaborative partner,
because I know that there aredefinitely things you should be
doing to make that transition.
Sarah Greesonbach (29:53):
Well, very similar to what we've said, how
boundaries are a you problem,not a them problem.
I think this can be an usinitiative too, when it comes to
doing the mindset work andidentity work that would let you
step into a conversation andstart to feel like a peer.
I work with a lot of people whoare, even if they've achieved
(30:14):
some kind of senior role or eveneducation, like they've hit the
terminal degree.
They still don't feel like theybelong there or deserve to be
speaking.
Maybe they've had some toxicwork experiences of their own.
So doing that work to almostscreen yourself for any
behaviors that could come off asmore junior and see like why do
(30:36):
I do that?
Why do I think that Readingbooks like Playing Big by Tara
Moore and the Big Leap by GayHendricks, stuff like that, to
really build up your internaldensity of being able to show up
to that conversation andactually be a whole person on it
I feel like that is the partthat we overlook a lot.
Treasa Edmond (30:54):
Yeah, you've made the mindset shift which
mindset's huge.
I talk about mindset a lot.
You've made the mindset shift.
You have positioned yourself tobe more of a partner.
You believe in yourself or atleast you're training yourself
to believe in yourself that youcan do this thing.
You do belong here.
You are an expert in this.
How, then, do you communicatethat expertise to your clients
(31:17):
and set that foundation for thepartnership without coming
across as confrontational?
Because I know a lot of peopleI've seen this happen.
They will start a new thing andthen they'll tell a client I do
this thing too.
I think you should hire me forit.
Or they just forget thatthere's wooing involved.
There is wooing.
(31:38):
This is a relationship andrelationships require wooing.
So how can they do that?
Sarah Greesonbach (31:43):
Well, I have a really annoying trick answer
for that because in my mind,like when you're once you do
that work like a lot of it isabout trusting yourself and
knowing what to say, like almostreconnecting with your
intuition and corny stuff likethat that once I do that work,
I'm way more comfortable showingup to a call without preparing
(32:05):
and without knowing what I'mgoing to say or knowing what
they're going to say, or feelinglike I'll be pressured to say
yes to something, because I canjust show up and be and from my
perspective, that's what's givenme the most peace in my
business, both with clients andin my coaching work is knowing
that how I am right now in thismoment, is enough.
So I can have a couple notesjotted down or stuff I want to
(32:28):
remember, but there's not a lotof lines or tips or hacks I have
to remember because I just showup and be me.
Treasa Edmond (32:35):
Now, this isn't on the docket to talk about
today, but I think we shouldhave Sarah back in the future to
talk about this.
Mindset matters.
And how we think and how weprocess thoughts matter, and
it's not necessarily woo-woo.
Sarah Greesonbach (32:50):
I've been biting my lip to try to not say
the word woo the whole time andyou just blew it, teresa, come
on, no one can talk about thiswithout saying woo at some point
.
Treasa Edmond (33:02):
Because people think it's this like
metaphysical thing.
It's out there, it's thatperson standing in front of the
mirror going I'm okay, you'reokay, it's come so far.
From that, there is actualscience behind rewiring your
thought processes and I thinksomeday we need to have an
entire conversation about that,because I think it is so
(33:23):
important in boundaries and inyour client relationships.
Sarah Greesonbach (33:26):
We can tell people to set a boundary.
We can put that on automatedsound like in loss, where it was
repeating that number for like40 years.
We can say that forever and ifyou do not believe that you
deserve to say no to something,it will never click.
It just won't work Like youhave to do that work.
And my first counter to someonewho doesn't like looking in the
(33:49):
mirror and saying you're okayis just think of all the
messages we've probably gottenfrom like age five to 15, from
everybody outside of us andinside of us saying we aren't
okay.
Doesn't it make sense?
We'd need to tell ourselveswe're okay a little bit to like
catch up on all the damagethat's happened.
Yeah, the more I work withpeople, I just see oh, I'm
(34:13):
trying not to use such strongwords like abuse, but it is like
the human condition is reallytough on us and we are doing our
best to get through it and itis really difficult.
Even when we've gone to schooland we've done the perfect
grades and we have the perfectfamily, like all that garbage,
it's still really hard.
Our minds need support to makeit through all the things we're
(34:34):
trying to do.
Treasa Edmond (34:35):
Yeah, and if you're not at the point where
you can tell yourself somethingand believe that it's true over
what someone else says, you needto do some mindset work.
Sarah Greesonbach (34:44):
That was my Frankenstein agreement.
Treasa Edmond (34:49):
All right.
So let's talk about the balancebetween being flexible for
clients and maintaining thoseboundaries that we've
successfully set at this pointthat we need for a successful
partnership.
And you agree, right that youneed boundaries for a successful
partnership.
So how do you recommend to yourclients?
So let's say I'm a client for asecond and I have this issue.
(35:11):
I've set my boundaries.
I'm pretty good at it.
About 80% of the time I set thescope, I set my rates.
I've really gotten pretty goodat running my business.
But this one client alwayswants stuff last minute, even if
they knew about it six monthsin advance.
How are you going to tell methat I need to stop bending over
backwards to take care of whatthey need and then explain to me
(35:34):
when it is OK to be flexible?
Sarah Greesonbach (35:38):
Oh sorry, Frankenstein mode again I would
start.
I really like to just askquestions and get to the bottom
of things, because usuallythere's almost always a
connection to some kind of pastevent with the behavior that
we're doing today.
So there's going to besomething in there that is
making you feel like you have tosay yes to this person, Even
(35:58):
though logically they'redisorganized and this is their
problem, but you want to be theone who saves the day.
I imagine in the course ofconversation we get to some
ideas where one we could startgetting a little proactive about
this one we could start gettinga little proactive about this
and setting up a reminder foryourself quarterly to send an
email to them to tell them tostart thinking about ideas so
that it's not so late and thenset those boundaries in advance.
(36:19):
Please start thinking aboutcontent ideas, because all need
to know the topics by blank dateif you want the drafts by blank
date and just truly puttingsome guardrails around the
client and almost treating themlike a beloved child who needs
some guidance with gettingthings done.
Treasa Edmond (36:39):
And I'm going to go out on a limb and say they're
actually going to like that,because instead of them having
to figure out all of thedeadlines, you've just given
them one.
All they have to do is plug itin the spreadsheet and do the
thing by then.
So it really does help when youmake it easy on your clients,
and I set deadlines in everyproject.
I want to backtrack a littlebit, because we brought this up
(37:00):
a couple of times and we've notreally addressed it.
Let's talk about the dangers ofhaving a hero complex and being
a freelancer, because there area few.
Sarah Greesonbach (37:11):
Oh yeah, and that has come up a lot for me,
like in my own professionaldevelopment work, especially
like I bring up the Enneagram alot, but I'm an Enneagram eight,
which I suspect you might be aswell and what I realized is it
was a.
It was another way for me totry to control the situation.
If I can save the day or fixthe problem, then I know that
(37:31):
people will depend on me andI'll be more secure in the
relationship kind of thing.
So I had to really unpack whatam I doing and why, what's
actually appropriate for me todo, what do I want to do, and
then mix all that into a betterrelationship.
Treasa Edmond (37:44):
Finally found a phrase that works for me,
because you're right, I do wantto save the day, I want to help
them, I want to get the kudos atthe end, I want all of those
things, but ultimately I want tosolve the problem for people,
which isn't helpful for thepeople or for me.
I learned really quickly Notreally quickly, actually.
(38:05):
I learned this because of mytoxic clients Slowly and
painfully, yeah, and I learnedit and I started saying it to
myself.
And then the designer that Iwork with also worked with a
toxic client, so I taught it tothem and I actually would say
this to my client.
I recommend you don't say thisto a client.
I said it to them because Ireally hope they just stop
(38:26):
working with me and I wouldn'thave to fire them.
And it never worked.
But my whole viewpoint becameyour lack of preparation does
not constitute an emergency onmy behalf.
Sarah Greesonbach (38:38):
That's a common Marine phrase.
Treasa Edmond (38:40):
I learned growing up.
Sarah Greesonbach (38:41):
We're all pretty familiar with the idea
that the task will expand to thetime you allow it, and I think
clients will expand to theboundaries you allow them.
They're like a beautiful,beautiful goopy mess and if you
don't put that little wall up,they'll just goop right into you
and it doesn't really.
It doesn't track with them thatit's causing a problem, but
(39:02):
then you're over there drowningin goop.
Treasa Edmond (39:03):
Yeah.
Sarah Greesonbach (39:04):
Like you've got to push that wall up.
Treasa Edmond (39:06):
Yeah, absolutely, and politely.
Sarah Greesonbach (39:08):
But yeah, the other one is proper prior
planning prevents poorperformance was a big one for my
dad.
Treasa Edmond (39:16):
If you're working with a client, if you build
this partnership we're talkingabout, you can gradually guide
them to proper processes andprocedures that make it easier
for our relationship to workeven better, work even better.
And sometimes that's a matterof saying it would work a lot
better for me if we could dothis and this.
(39:36):
What would make it easier foryou?
So it always has to be somegive and take there.
It's a communication issue.
If they knew about somethingsix months ago and didn't tell
you about it until yesterday andthey need it tomorrow, you
charge them extra for that.
And they need it tomorrow, youcharge them extra for that.
That's their mistake.
There are consequences to theiractions and that's the only
consequence we can give them,other than walking away from the
(39:59):
relationship.
Sarah Greesonbach (40:00):
Ooh, I was going to say that's the language
they understand, but I alsoagree that's the consequence
they understand.
I need to curb my behaviors orthis person will leave.
Treasa Edmond (40:13):
One of the problem areas I see that causes
a lot of boundary and clientrelationship issues is a lack of
effective communication.
And when I say a lack ofeffective communication, once
again I'm putting all of this onthe freelancer, because it's up
to you to make sure that yourclient is effectively
communicating with you.
You have to ask the questions,you have to get the information
(40:36):
so that you can do your job.
So do you work with people onhow to effectively communicate,
sarah?
Sarah Greesonbach (40:43):
Yeah, it comes up sometimes.
It does seem to be an instinctpeople have.
I think what I'm going to seemore of is clients being too
busy or even intentionally notreading what you're saying.
So I think having an awarenessof whether a client reads the
emails or doesn't, and whetheryou can discuss it by a call
(41:04):
instead, is going to be animportant part of that, because
there are I'm thinking of aclient situation that a coaching
client had where it was almostlike the client would write back
and just almost as if theperson hadn't written them at
all.
So they were having a hard timefeeling understood.
Treasa Edmond (41:22):
And that's something you need to look at.
If your preferred communicationstyle is email and you have a
client that needs to have aphone call to hear anything
you're saying, that's not aclient you can work with.
If your communication stylesdon't mesh, you either need to
be able to bend or walk away.
Sarah Greesonbach (41:39):
Or maybe you're a person who prefers to
have calls as well.
Treasa Edmond (41:42):
Yeah, if you are, then it's a match made in
heaven, right, and a lot of thatis a mindset thing, but we need
to look at the words we'reusing.
So if you say, when I work formy clients, your clients are
coming into that relationshipthinking you work for them.
If you say, when I partner withmy clients, they come into it
feeling like an equal partnerand you don't have to fight that
(42:03):
uphill battle.
What advice would you give tonew freelancers, sarah, who are
just starting to navigate clientrelationships and they're
really uncertain of how to stickthose boundaries in there and
how to set it up for themselvesso that they can be in a
partnership with their clientsinstead of an unequal
relationship?
Sarah Greesonbach (42:22):
I'm going to make it real simple and break
into those people's minds andassure them that it's not them,
it's the space between them andthe client that needs to be
worked on and developed.
I see people taking a lot ofresponsibility or taking things
very personally.
If you don't hear back from aprospecting thing or if somebody
(42:43):
says no to your pricing thatkind of stuff, and I've yet to
encounter a situation where itreally is that freelancer's
problem or fault or whatever wewant to attribute it to.
So I'd start there.
Treasa Edmond (42:58):
I actually saw a LinkedIn post about this from a
CEO of a large business whooccasionally works with
freelancers and otherconsultants, agencies, whatever
and he was talking about thisvery issue.
He said if he could change onething, he would change the other
person's perception of whathappened in that decision-making
(43:22):
process, and his viewpoint ishe has to make 50 decisions a
day and those decisions, everysingle one, has to be what's in
the best long-term interest forthe business.
He has not in his memory evermade a decision that hinged on
the person that he was makingthe decision about it was always
(43:44):
a business decision and whatwas right long-term for the
business.
And sometimes that's just notyou.
So I think that's something weneed to take to heart.
We cannot and it's so mucheasier to say this than do it
right we cannot take itpersonally because it's not
about us.
And I try to put it back on mybusiness.
My business was not the rightdecision for them at this point,
because if you can create thatseparation, I think it just
(44:07):
makes it easier to not take itpersonally.
Sarah Greesonbach (44:09):
Because there is a separation, even if you
don't feel it yet.
Yeah, I think that's the coollesson for newbies.
Treasa Edmond (44:15):
Yeah, so, sarah, if people want to find you and
follow you and learn more aboutyou and all of that how would
they do that?
Sarah Greesonbach (44:28):
Well, you would come and have a great time
with me on LinkedIn and fromthere.
Treasa Edmond (44:36):
I have a podcast and an email list and all that
good stuff, but it's mainlyabout making our day a little
lighter, a little funnier, allright.
So last question, sarah, towrap all of this up what advice
would you give to serviceproviders who are looking to
create lasting, successfulpartnerships with their clients?
Sarah Greesonbach (44:48):
My advice would be that the first lasting,
successful partnership you haveto have is with yourself.
So it's all super corny but ifyou aren't developing who you
are as a business owner, assomeone off the clock, like all
those things, it's just a shellof a person that you're
presenting to clients, and Ithink that's where a lot of
(45:10):
third year slump kind of stuffcomes from is if we're just
focusing on business metrics andthe data around prospecting but
we're not doing the reading,doing the journaling, reflecting
, networking, like doing allthat kind of stuff.
Treasa Edmond (45:23):
Do you have resources available to help
people do that, Sarah?
Is that something they can getin your newsletter?
Sarah Greesonbach (45:27):
So I host Slack sprints for Unlurk
LinkedIn to help you find yourvoice with that, and then Unlurk
your journal, and a lot of thatfocuses on personal development
and reflection and that kind ofstuff.
Treasa Edmond (45:39):
Thank you for being here with us this week and
come back next week for anothergreat guest host.
Sarah Greesonbach (45:44):
Thank you.
Treasa Edmond (45:45):
Take care everyone.
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