February 10, 2025 • 19 mins
Freelancers often struggle with the fear of raising their rates, worried that it might cost them valuable clients. This episode breaks down the essentials of how to navigate these conversations, stressing the importance of value, communication, and building strong client relationships.
About Our Guest
Jamie Brindle been freelancing for 16 years, and in that time he's worked with clients ranging from local mom and pop restaurants, to Fortune 500 companies like Google, Hillshire, Netflix, and Lionsgate. In 2020 he began producing social media content for his fellow freelancers on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, an LinkedIn. Today he helps over 500,000 freelancers everyday with practical tips.
Links You Might Want
Jamie's Newsletter
Connect with Jamie on
LinkedIn
Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to listen to Boss Responses. This podcast is a passion project that comes from years of helping freelancers shape a business that supports the lifestyle they want.
Have a question you'd like answered? Send it to info@bossresponses.com
If you'd like to support the podcast, click that link above. Those lattes help keep us going and are much appreciated!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Treasa Edmond (00:00):
Welcome back to Boss Responses.
This week, I'm joined by guestco-host Jamie Brendel, a
freelancer with 16 years ofexperience working with brands
from local businesses to Netflixand Google.
Our first question is all aboutthe fear we face when we need
to raise our rates.
Are all of our clients going tosprint for the door?
Jamie and I are both prettypassionate about this topic, so
(00:22):
let's get right into thequestion.
If you're a freelancer, businessowner or anyone who deals with
clients, you're in the rightplace.
I'm your host, teresa Edmond.
I've been dealing with clientsand running my business for
nearly two decades and in thattime, I've dealt with my share
of doubt, imposter syndrome andnot knowing what to say when a
(00:44):
client asks a question.
I wasn't ready for.
I created this podcast toempower you with the boss
responses you need to grow yourbusiness.
Each week, my guest co-host andI will bring you five episodes
packed with practical insights.
Monday through Thursday, weanswer your questions, and
Fridays we dive deep to explorehow our co-hosts embrace their
(01:06):
role as the boss of theirbusiness.
Welcome to Boss Responses,jamie.
Thank you so much for beinghere with us this week.
Jamie Brindle (01:18):
Thanks for having me.
We're going to have a lot offun.
Treasa Edmond (01:21):
Hey, I'm excited about it.
I've already told you and I'lltell everyone else I'm probably
going to fangirl a little bit.
I love Jamie's content and ifyou haven't watched any of it,
go do it after you listen to thepodcast episode, not right now.
Jamie, you're answering ourfirst question of the week and
this is from Elliot.
He's in Austin, texas.
Elliot says I've beenfreelancing for about a year now
(01:42):
and while I have a solid clientbase, I find that I'm
constantly undercharging.
Every time I try to raise myrates I get nervous about losing
clients.
It feels like I'm stuck in acycle where I can't grow without
losing work.
Jamie Brindle (01:59):
How do you approach raising rates without
scaring off clients?
I mean, what freelancer hasn'tfound themselves in this
situation right?
So step one is know that you'renot alone.
There's nothing wrong with you.
This is something that you'regoing to bump up against a few
different times in your career.
It's one of those things thateven advanced freelancers need
to be reminded of notnecessarily learn, but just need
(02:20):
to remember that they learnedthis lesson in the past.
The first time that Iencountered this I was working
in Hollywood.
It was before Courtney, my wife, had joined.
It was just me, and I had aclient that had just taken over
my calendar.
They were responsible for 87%of my time in my business.
(02:43):
My revenue, which anyfreelancer knows, is a pretty
risky scenario to find yourselfin, and I couldn't spend any
time building my business and,in a moment of desperation, I
scheduled a call with the CEO ofthis agency.
I spent the week writing onflashcards what I was going to
say, trying to figure out what Iwas going to charge, knowing
full well that if I lose thisclient, I'm starting from square
(03:06):
one on my business, but also,if I keep this client, I can't
grow my business.
So it's a rock and a hard placesituation.
I talked them through it.
I ultimately told her I'm goingto have to more than double my
monthly here, and there's apause that felt like 45 minutes
on my end, but I'm sure it wasreally seven seconds and she
said okay, that makes sense tous.
(03:26):
We want to work with youbecause we'd rather find a way
to work with you than find a newyou right, because I spent two
years getting to know their team, getting to know their business
, their clients and what haveyou.
That was my entry point intothis situation is understanding
that if you can explain thesituation to folks, it's highly
likely that they're going tofigure out how to work with you
(03:47):
rather than, as the questionasker mentioned, getting scared
off and going to find someoneelse.
I've had several conversationsto that end with other clients
of ours, who will even jokingly.
They'll forward me emails frompeople trying to poach them from
us and offer to undercut us andcharge half of what we're
charging, and they're soconfident that they're not going
(04:07):
to leave that they send me theemail as a joke.
It's not even a thought thatwould cross their mind because
of the value we've brought.
So that's all to kind ofestablish the reality of the
situation, which is there is arelationship here and that is
valuable, right?
So when you're walking intothese conversations, understand
that this person isn'tdispassionately looking at you,
(04:28):
as each project is a new item onthe sheet and the second you're
charging too much, you're off,you're gone, we're going to go
find someone else, right,because there's value to the
relationship.
Essentially, there's value tothe shorthand that you've
developed.
But when it does come time tohave that conversation, make
sure that you give them enoughrunway to go a different
(04:50):
direction if they absolutelyhave to Pardon the expression,
but don't be a dick about it,right?
Don't say, well, you got tofigure out how to pay me now or
I'm out.
Give them enough runway andthere's no need to really
explain.
I think a lot of people fallinto that trap where they make a
whole presentation about whytheir prices have changed and
it's more.
Hey, this is the new numberstarting three months from now.
(05:11):
This is my new minimum level ofengagement.
I'm really enjoying the workwe're doing together and
hopefully we can keep going.
Hopefully this isn't a dealbreaker, but if so, let me know
and I'm happy to help you find areplacement for me Because you
want to be a team player to theend these people, who knows they
might hire you later I'm surethey'll have some things to say
about you to their network butalso because you want to remind
them that they will have to finda new you.
Treasa Edmond (05:34):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jamie Brindle (05:35):
Maybe that rate isn't that scary after all.
Treasa Edmond (05:38):
Yeah, and now I have a caveat to that, because I
agree with all of that Unlessyou're writing for a content
mill, they honestly don't careand usually they don't feel like
they've built a relationshipwith you because they can
replace you easily.
So, having said that, if you'rewriting for a content mill,
just replace them, replace them.
Jamie Brindle (06:00):
I was going to say, yeah, it's like, just as
there are many of you, there aremany of them, so that's
important, but also optimize fora business that doesn't rely on
that type of client either,right?
Treasa Edmond (06:14):
So it's like the less and less of that type of
client you can have, the better.
I see a lot of new writerscoming in and I'm in a Facebook
group where we talk about whatis the kind of bottom rate a
professional writer shouldcharge, and the general
consensus in there is if youhave writing experience and
you're writing high valuecontent for clients and a lot of
the people in there are B2Bcontent writers so B2B never,
(06:36):
ever, drop below a quarter aword as your internal rate Just
don't.
Just don't do it.
So if someone wants to pay you10 cents a word, they're quite
obviously a content mill.
You're going to get in there.
You're going to be making alittle bit of money, but they
are going to monopolize yourtime and a lot of the lower, the
more content mill-orientedagencies they also will do the
(06:58):
same thing.
They'll pay you bottom dollar,monopolize all of your time so
that you can't do it.
My rule of thumb and I don'tknow what you think about this,
jamie now is because I had yoursame situation.
I had one client.
They were like 80% of myschedule.
They ended up being toxic,super, super toxic, and I needed
to get rid of them and I wasafraid to get rid of them, but
(07:19):
it was a whole situation Sincethen.
I did fire them eventually, andI did it by raising my rates.
I love that.
I love raising my rates enoughthat a client just goes away One
(07:50):
of my favorite.
Jamie Brindle (07:52):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's critical.
I know we're probably talkingabout marketing at some point
this week, but it's the samewith marketing, right?
You want no one marketingchannel to be responsible for
more than 20% of your leadgeneration.
It's like any across the board.
You want to de-risk yourbusiness?
Yeah, most certainly.
Otherwise, you become thatcompany's rented employee, which
(08:12):
is not what you got in thisgame for.
Treasa Edmond (08:14):
The other part of my answer is it's good for you
to be nervous because itsharpens your responses.
If you're doing this in personon a call, you're more aware and
looking for how the client isreacting so that you can react
back to that.
It just makes you more into theprocess.
(08:35):
So here's my process that Irecommend for my coaching
clients.
If they need to raise the rates, especially if they are at the
point where they're constantlyundercharging and they need that
confidence, they need to raisethe rates, especially if they
are at the point where they'reconstantly undercharging and
they need that confidence.
They need to build theconfidence to do it, because it
takes some confidence.
I tell them.
First thing you start doing ismarketing for new clients, no
matter what you need to bemarketing all the time, no
(08:57):
matter what your client rosterlooks like, no matter how far
you're booked out.
You need your marketing builtup so that you have consistent
referrals and inbound marketingleads, so that you're not having
to prospect, becauseprospecting takes up way more
time than you really need it to.
The second thing I say is toraise your rates gradually if
(09:18):
you don't have it in you to do abig jump.
So if you're charging half ofwhat you should be.
You don't necessarily Now Jamiedid.
He went in and said I need todouble my rates.
That's a rare situation.
Jamie Brindle (09:31):
That was a crisis guys.
Treasa Edmond (09:33):
And you'd built a solid relationship.
They valued you and you wereprobably hoping that they would
see that as value.
If it's a client where you'vebuilt that relationship and you
want to do that, go in and justfigure out what makes you
slightly uncomfortable insteadof really uncomfortable.
So if you are fine with I'mgoing to stick with the per word
(09:56):
, even though I don't charge perword, but it's easy for people
to understand that internally.
If you are comfortable withraising your rates 10 cents a
word, do it 20 cents a word.
Jamie Brindle (10:06):
I like that.
Treasa Edmond (10:08):
It doubles your stress factor, but it's also
usually well within what theclient is willing to pay.
The other thing I say is startasking new clients because,
remember, you're marketing, sonew clients are coming in.
Start asking your new clientswhat their budget is before you
give them a rate.
I never give rates withoutknowing what a client wants to
(10:31):
pay, and then I never lower myrates.
I lower the client'sexpectations of what they get
for their budget.
So I change scope, never myrates.
Jamie Brindle (10:39):
And that will get you more money with less effort
every single time when it comesto experimenting with your rate
and getting an understanding ofwhat's available, what the
market will bear for what it isyou do.
A great time to experiment iswhen you're really busy.
If you find yourself bookedsolid for a month or two and
(11:02):
you're getting some new clientsthrough the door, those guys are
test subjects.
Don't even think of them aspotential clients.
Right On this one, I'm going tocharge four times what I
normally.
We'll see what happens.
I can't tell you how many timesmy rate has seen a significant
increase simply because someonejust said, yeah, okay, we can do
that.
And guess what?
That's the new rate foreveryone from now on, right?
(11:24):
So a good time to experiment iswhen you're busy.
I think ultimately apply herewith your folks.
I think it will, though youwant to charge in a way that
makes sure that you're buildinga business and not a job, right?
Yes, so if you only make moneywhen you work, that's a job that
you're making for yourself andyou can go get a job anywhere.
(11:45):
But ideally, with a business,you can decide to not work for a
month and still make the moneyyou need to make that month,
whether that be viasubcontracting or diversifying
your revenue streams withdifferent types of products and
what have you.
But I would advise, when you'recoming up with that minimum
level of engagement or coming upwith that internal floor rate
(12:06):
for your word count, assess howmuch it would cost you to bring
someone on for that gig and thenadd to that the margin you
would need to make to make yourrevenue goal for that month and
that's your new minimum level ofengagement.
And that doesn't mean you haveto go subcontract.
That just means that you couldif you wanted to.
That's the beginnings of ascalable business.
Treasa Edmond (12:26):
I firmly believe that, as freelancers, we should
be charging enough that, ifsomething happens and we need to
step back for a month, we canbring in a subcontractor to take
over our clients without losingmoney.
That's a safety net that needsto happen.
So, yeah, what Jimmy just saidabout raising your rates with
new clients, that's the thirdpiece of advice I give to my
people.
So, once they've gotten out oftheir crisis zone and they're
(12:49):
making enough that they'remaking their ends meet, they're
prospecting, they're marketing.
They're making enough thatthey're making their ends meet,
they're prospecting, they'remarketing, they're bringing in
new clients.
Always raise your rates with newclients, even if it's 10, 20
cents a word.
Raise your rates with each newincoming client, build a
relationship with them and then,as you build those
relationships and you're surethey're going to be a long-term
viable client you can actuallyget rid of your lower paying
(13:11):
clients that aren't your idealclients, the people you don't
want to continue working with,and that's how you kind of
refresh and build your business.
Now I want to add a caveat inhere, jamie, and I really would
like your input on this At somepoint, you need to move away.
Well, you should always moveaway from hourly like right away
, but at some point you need tomove away from like per word
(13:33):
rates to project rates.
And my project rates are notbased on hourly or per word.
They have a minimum thresholdfor each, but they're based on
value.
Jamie Brindle (13:47):
Yep, anybody consuming this podcast, whether
you're listening or watching it,has encountered this concept,
probably a dozen times today onsocial media, depending on who
you're following.
Right, but it is still somehowelusive to folks, the ever
elusive value pricing, becausepeople always say, well, there's
no tangible thing to value.
(14:08):
How do I know what the value ofa specific job is?
And I start with kind of ananecdotal example, which is if a
local cafe wants you to developa poster for their window and
then the same day, warnerBrothers comes knocking and they
want you to develop a posterfor the next Batman movie,
that's the same job, but there'stwo very different values there
(14:31):
what each brand stands tobenefit from.
A well-executed poster or awell-executed copy or what have
you, how do you touch that?
How do you figure out what thatnumber is?
And the answer is you don't.
The client tells you.
It's not on you to figure outwhat the value is.
It's in your call with them, inyour sales call, your discovery
conversations.
You ask hey, how are wemeasuring success for this thing
(14:55):
?
What are the success metricswe're using to know that we've
done a good job here?
Because I want to hit it out ofthe park for you guys.
But in order to do that, I needto know what the target is.
I need to know what we're doinghere, and oftentimes there are
major, major brands that don'tknow the answer to that question
before they've engaged you, andso having that conversation
immediately establishes you as astrategic partner, because
(15:18):
you're forcing them to hey,everybody stop, why are we doing
this?
The answer can't be well, we'llsay we did a good job if we like
the words you gave us.
I'm like no, no, you got togive me a number here.
You got to give me something Ican measure.
Right.
I'm like no, no, you got togive me a number here.
You got to give me something Ican measure right Now.
That doesn't have to be adollar amount.
I can say, you know, just forall different types of
freelancers it could be.
You know, I optimized yourworkflow and saved your team in
(15:42):
the aggregate 24 hours per weekof blah, blah, blah, like it
could be anything.
Usually it's time, money orreputation.
It's one of those where you'resome combination thereof, but
you ask them for that and thenyou apply that to what your
minimum level of engagement is.
Ideally, you get to the pointwhere you can do that in real
time, maybe make a couple notesto yourself so you can have them
(16:03):
to consult as you're havingthis conversation.
The ever elusive value pricingis as simple as asking them
what's the value of this thingto you In a manner that's not
weird and salesy.
Genuinely, you're trying to bea good strategic partner going
(16:26):
to be successful.
Treasa Edmond (16:26):
So I actually saw you post about the poster issue
once and I saw a guy come onand say that he would charge the
same for both because it wasthe same job.
Yeah, the J word.
And my immediate thought when Isaw his response is Warner
Brothers isn't going to hire youbecause they're going to think
you're small change.
Jamie Brindle (16:39):
So that was what I said to the guy.
Treasa Edmond (16:42):
I think you did say something like that.
Jamie Brindle (16:44):
It's not even that.
It's not even like yes, they'llthink that you're not good
enough for what they're askingfor.
But but be you know, somebodyover there would be very
uncomfortable paying that muchmoney for something like it
because it's so important tothem, Right, yeah, it's like
imagine, you know, if you'rebuying something very important
for the infrastructure of yourhouse or something, and some
(17:06):
person comes along and says,yeah, I'll do that for 12 bucks,
You'd be like, mm-mm, I'm notinterested in that.
That guy's not thinking aboutthis the right way.
No no, so yeah, it's a two-waystreet.
Treasa Edmond (17:19):
Yeah, the example I give to writers, especially
when we're talking about thisvalue-based pricing specifically
, and figuring out what thatvalue is it's very similar to
what you'd said.
When you ask a client on, say,a white paper what success looks
like for them and they say wewant to convert at least one
(17:39):
client from this white paper,you can immediately say, oh,
that would be wonderful.
What's the value of that clientto your business?
It's not nosy at that point,it's actually you want to know
what that value is.
And if they say, well, we'reselling this big machine, it's a
million dollars, you can goback and you can be like well,
charging $2,500 for this whitepaper is kind of ridiculous when
(18:01):
the end result is a milliondollars in income for them.
So then you can look at, all ofa sudden, $25,000 for a white
paper makes perfect sense andit's.
You know, if they've alreadygiven you your budget, I
pre-qualify every client and Ialways ask them what their
budget or budget range is for it.
And if they say their budgetrange is, they're probably going
(18:21):
to be vague.
You know $10,000 to $35,000.
And you see that their endvalue is a million dollars,
you're all of a sudden not goingto have a problem at all
putting $35,000 on a proposalfor a white paper.
You just aren't, becausethey're not good clients Caveat.
Good clients are not alwayslooking for the lowest price.
(18:44):
They're looking for the highestquality and the easiest people
to work with.
Jamie Brindle (18:51):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Treasa Edmond (18:53):
Value matters.
So, elliot, do this thing Raiseyour rate.
Make sure you're in a goodrelationship.
You can be nervous about losingclients, that's fine.
I think nerves to some extentare very, very helpful with this
.
But make sure that you arebuilding relationships with your
client, showing them your valueand then pricing yourself in
your value.
And then raise your rates forall of your new clients as they
(19:15):
come in.
Great, all right.
Come back tomorrow for day twowith Jamie Brindle.
Welcome back to Boss Responses.
This week, I'm joined by guestco-host Jamie Brendel, a
freelancer with 16 years ofexperience working with brands
from local businesses to Netflixand Google.
Our first question is all aboutthe fear we face when we need
to raise our rates.
Are all of our clients going tosprint for the door?
Jamie and I are both prettypassionate about this topic, so
(00:22):
let's get right into thequestion.
If you're a freelancer, businessowner or anyone who deals with
clients, you're in the rightplace.
I'm your host, teresa Edmond.
I've been dealing with clientsand running my business for
nearly two decades and in thattime, I've dealt with my share
of doubt, imposter syndrome andnot knowing what to say when a
(00:44):
client asks a question.
I wasn't ready for.
I created this podcast toempower you with the boss
responses you need to grow yourbusiness.
Each week, my guest co-host andI will bring you five episodes
packed with practical insights.
Monday through Thursday, weanswer your questions, and
Fridays we dive deep to explorehow our co-hosts embrace their
(01:06):
role as the boss of theirbusiness.
Welcome to Boss Responses,jamie.
Thank you so much for beinghere with us this week.
Jamie Brindle (01:18):
Thanks for having me.
We're going to have a lot offun.
Treasa Edmond (01:21):
Hey, I'm excited about it.
I've already told you and I'lltell everyone else I'm probably
going to fangirl a little bit.
I love Jamie's content and ifyou haven't watched any of it,
go do it after you listen to thepodcast episode, not right now.
Jamie, you're answering ourfirst question of the week and
this is from Elliot.
He's in Austin, texas.
Elliot says I've beenfreelancing for about a year now
(01:42):
and while I have a solid clientbase, I find that I'm
constantly undercharging.
Every time I try to raise myrates I get nervous about losing
clients.
It feels like I'm stuck in acycle where I can't grow without
losing work.
Jamie Brindle (01:59):
How do you approach raising rates without
scaring off clients?
I mean, what freelancer hasn'tfound themselves in this
situation right?
So step one is know that you'renot alone.
There's nothing wrong with you.
This is something that you'regoing to bump up against a few
different times in your career.
It's one of those things thateven advanced freelancers need
to be reminded of notnecessarily learn, but just need
(02:20):
to remember that they learnedthis lesson in the past.
The first time that Iencountered this I was working
in Hollywood.
It was before Courtney, my wife, had joined.
It was just me, and I had aclient that had just taken over
my calendar.
They were responsible for 87%of my time in my business.
(02:43):
My revenue, which anyfreelancer knows, is a pretty
risky scenario to find yourselfin, and I couldn't spend any
time building my business and,in a moment of desperation, I
scheduled a call with the CEO ofthis agency.
I spent the week writing onflashcards what I was going to
say, trying to figure out what Iwas going to charge, knowing
full well that if I lose thisclient, I'm starting from square
(03:06):
one on my business, but also,if I keep this client, I can't
grow my business.
So it's a rock and a hard placesituation.
I talked them through it.
I ultimately told her I'm goingto have to more than double my
monthly here, and there's apause that felt like 45 minutes
on my end, but I'm sure it wasreally seven seconds and she
said okay, that makes sense tous.
(03:26):
We want to work with youbecause we'd rather find a way
to work with you than find a newyou right, because I spent two
years getting to know their team, getting to know their business
, their clients and what haveyou.
That was my entry point intothis situation is understanding
that if you can explain thesituation to folks, it's highly
likely that they're going tofigure out how to work with you
(03:47):
rather than, as the questionasker mentioned, getting scared
off and going to find someoneelse.
I've had several conversationsto that end with other clients
of ours, who will even jokingly.
They'll forward me emails frompeople trying to poach them from
us and offer to undercut us andcharge half of what we're
charging, and they're soconfident that they're not going
(04:07):
to leave that they send me theemail as a joke.
It's not even a thought thatwould cross their mind because
of the value we've brought.
So that's all to kind ofestablish the reality of the
situation, which is there is arelationship here and that is
valuable, right?
So when you're walking intothese conversations, understand
that this person isn'tdispassionately looking at you,
(04:28):
as each project is a new item onthe sheet and the second you're
charging too much, you're off,you're gone, we're going to go
find someone else, right,because there's value to the
relationship.
Essentially, there's value tothe shorthand that you've
developed.
But when it does come time tohave that conversation, make
sure that you give them enoughrunway to go a different
(04:50):
direction if they absolutelyhave to Pardon the expression,
but don't be a dick about it,right?
Don't say, well, you got tofigure out how to pay me now or
I'm out.
Give them enough runway andthere's no need to really
explain.
I think a lot of people fallinto that trap where they make a
whole presentation about whytheir prices have changed and
it's more.
Hey, this is the new numberstarting three months from now.
(05:11):
This is my new minimum level ofengagement.
I'm really enjoying the workwe're doing together and
hopefully we can keep going.
Hopefully this isn't a dealbreaker, but if so, let me know
and I'm happy to help you find areplacement for me Because you
want to be a team player to theend these people, who knows they
might hire you later I'm surethey'll have some things to say
about you to their network butalso because you want to remind
them that they will have to finda new you.
Treasa Edmond (05:34):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jamie Brindle (05:35):
Maybe that rate isn't that scary after all.
Treasa Edmond (05:38):
Yeah, and now I have a caveat to that, because I
agree with all of that Unlessyou're writing for a content
mill, they honestly don't careand usually they don't feel like
they've built a relationshipwith you because they can
replace you easily.
So, having said that, if you'rewriting for a content mill,
just replace them, replace them.
Jamie Brindle (06:00):
I was going to say, yeah, it's like, just as
there are many of you, there aremany of them, so that's
important, but also optimize fora business that doesn't rely on
that type of client either,right?
Treasa Edmond (06:14):
So it's like the less and less of that type of
client you can have, the better.
I see a lot of new writerscoming in and I'm in a Facebook
group where we talk about whatis the kind of bottom rate a
professional writer shouldcharge, and the general
consensus in there is if youhave writing experience and
you're writing high valuecontent for clients and a lot of
the people in there are B2Bcontent writers so B2B never,
(06:36):
ever, drop below a quarter aword as your internal rate Just
don't.
Just don't do it.
So if someone wants to pay you10 cents a word, they're quite
obviously a content mill.
You're going to get in there.
You're going to be making alittle bit of money, but they
are going to monopolize yourtime and a lot of the lower, the
more content mill-orientedagencies they also will do the
(06:58):
same thing.
They'll pay you bottom dollar,monopolize all of your time so
that you can't do it.
My rule of thumb and I don'tknow what you think about this,
jamie now is because I had yoursame situation.
I had one client.
They were like 80% of myschedule.
They ended up being toxic,super, super toxic, and I needed
to get rid of them and I wasafraid to get rid of them, but
(07:19):
it was a whole situation Sincethen.
I did fire them eventually, andI did it by raising my rates.
I love that.
I love raising my rates enoughthat a client just goes away One
(07:50):
of my favorite.
Jamie Brindle (07:52):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's critical.
I know we're probably talkingabout marketing at some point
this week, but it's the samewith marketing, right?
You want no one marketingchannel to be responsible for
more than 20% of your leadgeneration.
It's like any across the board.
You want to de-risk yourbusiness?
Yeah, most certainly.
Otherwise, you become thatcompany's rented employee, which
(08:12):
is not what you got in thisgame for.
Treasa Edmond (08:14):
The other part of my answer is it's good for you
to be nervous because itsharpens your responses.
If you're doing this in personon a call, you're more aware and
looking for how the client isreacting so that you can react
back to that.
It just makes you more into theprocess.
(08:35):
So here's my process that Irecommend for my coaching
clients.
If they need to raise the rates, especially if they are at the
point where they're constantlyundercharging and they need that
confidence, they need to raisethe rates, especially if they
are at the point where they'reconstantly undercharging and
they need that confidence.
They need to build theconfidence to do it, because it
takes some confidence.
I tell them.
First thing you start doing ismarketing for new clients, no
matter what you need to bemarketing all the time, no
(08:57):
matter what your client rosterlooks like, no matter how far
you're booked out.
You need your marketing builtup so that you have consistent
referrals and inbound marketingleads, so that you're not having
to prospect, becauseprospecting takes up way more
time than you really need it to.
The second thing I say is toraise your rates gradually if
(09:18):
you don't have it in you to do abig jump.
So if you're charging half ofwhat you should be.
You don't necessarily Now Jamiedid.
He went in and said I need todouble my rates.
That's a rare situation.
Jamie Brindle (09:31):
That was a crisis guys.
Treasa Edmond (09:33):
And you'd built a solid relationship.
They valued you and you wereprobably hoping that they would
see that as value.
If it's a client where you'vebuilt that relationship and you
want to do that, go in and justfigure out what makes you
slightly uncomfortable insteadof really uncomfortable.
So if you are fine with I'mgoing to stick with the per word
(09:56):
, even though I don't charge perword, but it's easy for people
to understand that internally.
If you are comfortable withraising your rates 10 cents a
word, do it 20 cents a word.
Jamie Brindle (10:06):
I like that.
Treasa Edmond (10:08):
It doubles your stress factor, but it's also
usually well within what theclient is willing to pay.
The other thing I say is startasking new clients because,
remember, you're marketing, sonew clients are coming in.
Start asking your new clientswhat their budget is before you
give them a rate.
I never give rates withoutknowing what a client wants to
(10:31):
pay, and then I never lower myrates.
I lower the client'sexpectations of what they get
for their budget.
So I change scope, never myrates.
Jamie Brindle (10:39):
And that will get you more money with less effort
every single time when it comesto experimenting with your rate
and getting an understanding ofwhat's available, what the
market will bear for what it isyou do.
A great time to experiment iswhen you're really busy.
If you find yourself bookedsolid for a month or two and
(11:02):
you're getting some new clientsthrough the door, those guys are
test subjects.
Don't even think of them aspotential clients.
Right On this one, I'm going tocharge four times what I
normally.
We'll see what happens.
I can't tell you how many timesmy rate has seen a significant
increase simply because someonejust said, yeah, okay, we can do
that.
And guess what?
That's the new rate foreveryone from now on, right?
(11:24):
So a good time to experiment iswhen you're busy.
I think ultimately apply herewith your folks.
I think it will, though youwant to charge in a way that
makes sure that you're buildinga business and not a job, right?
Yes, so if you only make moneywhen you work, that's a job that
you're making for yourself andyou can go get a job anywhere.
(11:45):
But ideally, with a business,you can decide to not work for a
month and still make the moneyyou need to make that month,
whether that be viasubcontracting or diversifying
your revenue streams withdifferent types of products and
what have you.
But I would advise, when you'recoming up with that minimum
level of engagement or coming upwith that internal floor rate
(12:06):
for your word count, assess howmuch it would cost you to bring
someone on for that gig and thenadd to that the margin you
would need to make to make yourrevenue goal for that month and
that's your new minimum level ofengagement.
And that doesn't mean you haveto go subcontract.
That just means that you couldif you wanted to.
That's the beginnings of ascalable business.
Treasa Edmond (12:26):
I firmly believe that, as freelancers, we should
be charging enough that, ifsomething happens and we need to
step back for a month, we canbring in a subcontractor to take
over our clients without losingmoney.
That's a safety net that needsto happen.
So, yeah, what Jimmy just saidabout raising your rates with
new clients, that's the thirdpiece of advice I give to my
people.
So, once they've gotten out oftheir crisis zone and they're
(12:49):
making enough that they'remaking their ends meet, they're
prospecting, they're marketing.
They're making enough thatthey're making their ends meet,
they're prospecting, they'remarketing, they're bringing in
new clients.
Always raise your rates with newclients, even if it's 10, 20
cents a word.
Raise your rates with each newincoming client, build a
relationship with them and then,as you build those
relationships and you're surethey're going to be a long-term
viable client you can actuallyget rid of your lower paying
(13:11):
clients that aren't your idealclients, the people you don't
want to continue working with,and that's how you kind of
refresh and build your business.
Now I want to add a caveat inhere, jamie, and I really would
like your input on this At somepoint, you need to move away.
Well, you should always moveaway from hourly like right away
, but at some point you need tomove away from like per word
(13:33):
rates to project rates.
And my project rates are notbased on hourly or per word.
They have a minimum thresholdfor each, but they're based on
value.
Jamie Brindle (13:47):
Yep, anybody consuming this podcast, whether
you're listening or watching it,has encountered this concept,
probably a dozen times today onsocial media, depending on who
you're following.
Right, but it is still somehowelusive to folks, the ever
elusive value pricing, becausepeople always say, well, there's
no tangible thing to value.
(14:08):
How do I know what the value ofa specific job is?
And I start with kind of ananecdotal example, which is if a
local cafe wants you to developa poster for their window and
then the same day, warnerBrothers comes knocking and they
want you to develop a posterfor the next Batman movie,
that's the same job, but there'stwo very different values there
(14:31):
what each brand stands tobenefit from.
A well-executed poster or awell-executed copy or what have
you, how do you touch that?
How do you figure out what thatnumber is?
And the answer is you don't.
The client tells you.
It's not on you to figure outwhat the value is.
It's in your call with them, inyour sales call, your discovery
conversations.
You ask hey, how are wemeasuring success for this thing
(14:55):
?
What are the success metricswe're using to know that we've
done a good job here?
Because I want to hit it out ofthe park for you guys.
But in order to do that, I needto know what the target is.
I need to know what we're doinghere, and oftentimes there are
major, major brands that don'tknow the answer to that question
before they've engaged you, andso having that conversation
immediately establishes you as astrategic partner, because
(15:18):
you're forcing them to hey,everybody stop, why are we doing
this?
The answer can't be well, we'llsay we did a good job if we like
the words you gave us.
I'm like no, no, you got togive me a number here.
You got to give me something Ican measure.
Right.
I'm like no, no, you got togive me a number here.
You got to give me something Ican measure right Now.
That doesn't have to be adollar amount.
I can say, you know, just forall different types of
freelancers it could be.
You know, I optimized yourworkflow and saved your team in
(15:42):
the aggregate 24 hours per weekof blah, blah, blah, like it
could be anything.
Usually it's time, money orreputation.
It's one of those where you'resome combination thereof, but
you ask them for that and thenyou apply that to what your
minimum level of engagement is.
Ideally, you get to the pointwhere you can do that in real
time, maybe make a couple notesto yourself so you can have them
(16:03):
to consult as you're havingthis conversation.
The ever elusive value pricingis as simple as asking them
what's the value of this thingto you In a manner that's not
weird and salesy.
Genuinely, you're trying to bea good strategic partner going
(16:26):
to be successful.
Treasa Edmond (16:26):
So I actually saw you post about the poster issue
once and I saw a guy come onand say that he would charge the
same for both because it wasthe same job.
Yeah, the J word.
And my immediate thought when Isaw his response is Warner
Brothers isn't going to hire youbecause they're going to think
you're small change.
Jamie Brindle (16:39):
So that was what I said to the guy.
Treasa Edmond (16:42):
I think you did say something like that.
Jamie Brindle (16:44):
It's not even that.
It's not even like yes, they'llthink that you're not good
enough for what they're askingfor.
But but be you know, somebodyover there would be very
uncomfortable paying that muchmoney for something like it
because it's so important tothem, Right, yeah, it's like
imagine, you know, if you'rebuying something very important
for the infrastructure of yourhouse or something, and some
(17:06):
person comes along and says,yeah, I'll do that for 12 bucks,
You'd be like, mm-mm, I'm notinterested in that.
That guy's not thinking aboutthis the right way.
No no, so yeah, it's a two-waystreet.
Treasa Edmond (17:19):
Yeah, the example I give to writers, especially
when we're talking about thisvalue-based pricing specifically
, and figuring out what thatvalue is it's very similar to
what you'd said.
When you ask a client on, say,a white paper what success looks
like for them and they say wewant to convert at least one
(17:39):
client from this white paper,you can immediately say, oh,
that would be wonderful.
What's the value of that clientto your business?
It's not nosy at that point,it's actually you want to know
what that value is.
And if they say, well, we'reselling this big machine, it's a
million dollars, you can goback and you can be like well,
charging $2,500 for this whitepaper is kind of ridiculous when
(18:01):
the end result is a milliondollars in income for them.
So then you can look at, all ofa sudden, $25,000 for a white
paper makes perfect sense andit's.
You know, if they've alreadygiven you your budget, I
pre-qualify every client and Ialways ask them what their
budget or budget range is for it.
And if they say their budgetrange is, they're probably going
(18:21):
to be vague.
You know $10,000 to $35,000.
And you see that their endvalue is a million dollars,
you're all of a sudden not goingto have a problem at all
putting $35,000 on a proposalfor a white paper.
You just aren't, becausethey're not good clients Caveat.
Good clients are not alwayslooking for the lowest price.
(18:44):
They're looking for the highestquality and the easiest people
to work with.
Jamie Brindle (18:51):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Treasa Edmond (18:53):
Value matters.
So, elliot, do this thing Raiseyour rate.
Make sure you're in a goodrelationship.
You can be nervous about losingclients, that's fine.
I think nerves to some extentare very, very helpful with this
.
But make sure that you arebuilding relationships with your
client, showing them your valueand then pricing yourself in
your value.
And then raise your rates forall of your new clients as they
(19:15):
come in.
Great, all right.
Come back tomorrow for day twowith Jamie Brindle.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.