February 13, 2025 • 18 mins
Ever sent a proposal, only to hear… nothing? You’re not alone. In today’s episode, we tackle the age-old freelancer problem of proposal ghosting. Is it your pricing? Your process? Your client selection? My special guest co-host Jamie Brindle and I break down two different approaches—one that involves a streamlined, high-conversion proposal system and one that cuts proposals out of the equation entirely. Whichever path you choose, this episode will help you land more clients with confidence.
WE ALSO TALKED ABOUT
• The biggest mistakes freelancers make when sending proposals
• How to structure a proposal that converts (hint: it’s not just about the price)
• Why your proposal process should start before you even send the document
• The power of presenting pricing live on the call instead of in a proposal
• How to prequalify clients so you stop wasting time on people who were never serious
• The secret to closing deals without second-guessing your rates
• Why deadlines, follow-ups, and video walkthroughs can make all the difference
• The one email you should send instead of a proposal if you know a client isn’t a fit
About Our Guest
Jamie Brindle been freelancing for 16 years, and in that time he's worked with clients ranging from local mom and pop restaurants, to Fortune 500 companies like Google, Hillshire, Netflix, and Lionsgate. In 2020 he began producing social media content for his fellow freelancers on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, an LinkedIn. Today he helps over 500,000 freelancers everyday with practical tips.
Links You Might Want
Jamie's Newsletter
Connect with Jamie on
LinkedIn
Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to listen to Boss Responses. This podcast is a passion project that comes from years of helping freelancers shape a business that supports the lifestyle they want.
Have a question you'd like answered? Send it to info@bossresponses.com
If you'd like to support the podcast, click that link above. Those lattes help keep us going and are much appreciated!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Treasa Edmond (00:00):
Welcome back to Boss Responses.
Have you ever gone through adiscovery call with a client,
spent what felt like forever ona proposal, sent it off and then
crickets?
That's what's happened toSophia, who's asking our
question today.
It's a tricky situation.
I have a lot of thoughts onproposals.
(00:20):
Jamie has a completelydifferent process.
So today you get to hear abouttwo separate processes that both
have very high success rates.
It's dealer's choice.
You can choose the one that'sright for you.
Let's go ahead and get into it.
If you're a freelancer, businessowner or anyone who deals with
clients, you're in the rightplace.
I'm your host, teresa Edmond.
(00:41):
I've been dealing with clientsand running my business for
nearly two decades and in thattime I've dealt with my share of
doubt, imposter syndrome andnot knowing what to say when a
client asked a question I wasn'tready for.
I created this podcast toempower you with the boss
responses you need to grow yourbusiness.
Each week, my guest co-host andI will bring you five episodes
(01:04):
packed with practical insights.
Monday through Thursday, weanswer your questions, and
Fridays we dive deep to explorehow our co-hosts embrace their
role as the boss of theirbusiness.
Welcome to Boss Responses.
We are back for day four withJamie.
(01:25):
Jamie, what is the question fortoday?
Jamie Brindle (01:35):
Let's see here.
Today's question is from Sophiafrom Melbourne, australia, or I
guess Melbourne is how.
I have to say that I have afriend from Australia that
taught me the proper way to sayMelbourne.
Sophia's question is I keepgetting ghosted after sending
proposals.
I take the time to put togetherdetailed plans for potential
clients, but I never hear back.
Is there something that Ishould be doing differently to
improve my response rate?
(01:56):
What do you think?
Treasa Edmond (01:58):
Do you know what?
I've helped five I just countedthem up in my head Five people
with proposals over the lastmonth, and so I kind of know
some of the issues Sophia isprobably dealing with here.
I will say from the outset yoursystem is probably flawed.
If you are just dropping aproposal on a client and waiting
(02:21):
for them to respond, thenyou've set yourself up for
failure.
Tough love.
Sorry, I don't want to say itthat way, but it needs to be
said.
Your proposals should be a partof your onboarding process.
They're not a standalone thing.
They're not a I might get thisclient, I might not.
If you go into it knowing thatit's part of a process, it's
(02:42):
going to end with you workingwith that client.
Then you have a system in placeto follow up on every step of
it and you're going to get aresponse one way or another and
then you can tweak it until youstart getting more and more
positive responses.
So my recommendation for thissituation is to work on your
system first and then work onyour proposal.
(03:04):
So system to me looks like thisand it'll be interesting to see
kind of what you recommend onthis.
Jamie, I do pre-qualificationdiscovery call.
My discovery call is 90%questions.
I ask them to determine scope,success metrics, what the
project actually needs to looklike, all of the details, who it
(03:24):
matters to which competitorsthey're competing with.
I get strategic in that.
I take that.
I also know from that call whatthey think they need for this
project.
I take everything they'veanswered and I put together a
proposal that I never spend morethan 30 minutes on because I
have a template ready to go.
(03:45):
I put together a proposal thatincludes multiple options.
The first one is always whatthey think they want, scaled to
meet the budget that they'vegiven me.
The second option is always topend of their budget, what I
believe they need and it couldeven be more than their budget.
But I'm very clear in mymessaging in that proposal why
I'm recommending it, whatthey're going to get out of it,
(04:07):
what problems it's solving forthem and why I think they need
that instead of what they askedfor.
And then I have an everythingand the kitchen sink option.
That is value added through thewazoo.
It includes extra strategicguidance.
It's really truly partneringwith them.
90% of my clients choose optionthree because they see the
(04:32):
value in the call and in theproposal to do the thing and the
ones who don't choose optiontwo.
I've never had anyone since Istarted this process.
Choose what they thought theywanted.
Jamie Brindle (04:41):
Go with their gut yeah.
Treasa Edmond (04:42):
Yeah, Don't go with their gut.
So I do the proposal, myproposals.
This is the part that takes alittle bit of extra time.
I never spend more than half anhour putting that proposal
together.
And it's laid out, it's pretty,it's in their branding colors.
If it's a project, that's morethan a certain dollar amount
because effort scales with money, right, Jamie?
And then I record a quickwalkthrough of that proposal on
(05:08):
a Loom video and I include thelink to that in the email I send
them at the top of the proposal.
And then I have already, on mydiscovery call, scheduled a call
with them to go over theproposal in person and answer
any questions they have.
And then the proposal has anexpiration date seven days, 14
(05:30):
days, whatever they thought itwould take to get approvals.
If they go past that date, wereevaluate pricing, we
reevaluate availability.
I do not hold space in myschedule until they have signed
off on the proposal agreed tothe contract.
So all of the agreements are inplace and I've received my
deposit.
When you put those deadlines inplace and stack them up, your
(05:51):
clients are going to respondfaster and you have a process
then that led from I'vequalified them as a potential
client to.
We now have a starting date forthe project and if you go
through that every time, youdon't have to think about it.
You don't have to do any secondguessing.
The only thing you have to dois look at your calendar, see if
you have availability,translate the answers to their
(06:13):
questions onto the proposal,come up with the options that
you're going to give them andI'm telling you my success rate
since I started that proposalprocess has I calculated the
other day because someone askedme to, and I'm at 95% success
rate on converting proposals.
Clients like it.
When you have a straightforward, easy to follow system, what do
(06:35):
you do, Jamie?
Jamie Brindle (06:36):
Well, first of all, damn damn on that 95.
Nice, nicely done.
Treasa Edmond (06:41):
It's amazing, but I pre-qualify.
That's important.
Jamie Brindle (06:44):
That's.
That's important, for sure.
Okay, every industry is alittle different.
On the proposal side of thingsand on what's expected and
what's not, I will say that inmy Over 15 years of doing this,
I personally have made maybethree proposals.
(07:05):
It's something that I don'tparticipate in that often and I
find isn't necessarily requiredfor the way that I like to
acquire or convert leads intoclients, which I think this is
pretty beneficial to see twovery different ways to do it.
For me, it all happens in realtime, on the call, and it's me
(07:31):
walking them through all thequestions.
How are you going to measuresuccess for this?
Have you ever done this before?
If so, what are some things youwant to replicate, some things
you want to avoid?
If not, what are some anxietiesyou might have about this
process?
What are the things you'relooking forward to?
Who are our decision makers?
What's our schedule lookinglike?
Okay, here's my recommendationon a budget range something big
(07:51):
to give us to talk to.
We're from X to Y to give us aconversation starter.
Now let's talk about budget.
Okay, you walk them through thewhole thing.
At the end of it, you've got agame plan and a pretty rough
budget established and you sayare we ready to do this or not?
It's like we're right then andthere because I want to have
that conversation with them.
(08:11):
I think that any time that I'vesent a number and I've sent a
game plan, it does encourageghosting.
But also, you don't know ifyou're being ghosted.
And putting a timeline on ithelps for sure, but I would
catch myself negotiating againstmyself.
Five days after sending it I'dsend another email.
(08:31):
Hey, just check it in.
Also, if the number was wrong,let's talk it over.
I can come up with a way to getus down to a lower number, xyz
when really they'd alreadydecided that they were going to
do it and they were just waitingon approval from the boss, or
there are any number of thingscould be happening when you
think you're being ghosted.
So I want to be in the room forthat conversation.
So I like to present the planand the number then and there on
(08:54):
that call, get everybody signedoff to it and then most that
will happen afterwards is thescope of work will get sent over
for final sign off.
Yeah, but that's the way thatwe do it, because there is no,
they can't ghost you on the call, right?
They can't just.
Treasa Edmond (09:08):
Oh, they can, but .
Jamie Brindle (09:12):
Oops, oops.
Treasa Edmond (09:13):
I lost my internet connection.
Jamie Brindle (09:15):
But it is something that is just something
that I remember we wereconsulting on a production for a
very, very large brand, topfive brand in the world size
company, and they asked me canyou put together a deck of
everything that we just talkedabout?
My inner monologue is going why, like we just talked, like we
just talked about it, and thenthey say you put together a deck
(09:37):
and we'll have another call andgo go through your proposal?
Treasa Edmond (09:41):
Bureaucracy man.
Jamie Brindle (09:43):
I said, okay, all right.
And the morning of that callagain huge company.
I opened up Keynote and justmade my deck and they all get on
the call and it's two slidesthe first slide is the problem
and the second slide is thesolution, with the budget on it,
and we hashed it out and Iguess they just needed that to
(10:07):
feel like they needed the visual.
But that's probably as close toa proposal as I've gotten in a
long time.
Treasa Edmond (10:13):
That's lovely.
So I do want to clarify.
I do high value work likeperceived and actual.
So ghostwriting a book, thereare a lot of details that need
to be agreed on in writing tomake sure that there's
accountability on both sides.
And with content strategiesthere are a lot of moving pieces
(10:33):
, a lot of deadlines, a lot ofrequirements for things that
need done on both sides forsuccess.
So I do proposals because itclearly outlines that and it
provides that level ofaccountability on both sides
from the get-go.
And now ghostwriting I'm usuallytalking to the person who's
going to sign off on it.
So my proposal is my contractwith ghostwriting.
(10:56):
Everything is in there thatthey need.
I have a brief thing onpayments.
I don't go into a lot ofclauses because it freaks them
out If they need a contentstrategy.
My initial point of contact onthe discovery call is very
rarely the decision maker andthey need something in writing
(11:18):
to take to the decision maker toactually say this is what we're
going to do.
Now do I do full-on proposalsfor blog posts?
Never that I give them pricingon the phone because I know
ahead of time what I'm willingto do that for.
Or that I give them pricing onthe phone, because I know ahead
of time what I'm willing to dothat for and we just do the
thing.
But yeah, for more complexprojects.
The primary point of a proposalis so they can see everything
(11:42):
clearly outlined.
The biggest thing and this iswhy I send the Loom video is
because the decision maker wasnot in the room, yeah, is
because the decision maker wasnot in the room, yeah, and this
gives them the opportunity tosee my face, to understand that
this is an important process andto do the thing.
My success rate on blogsprobably isn't as high, but I
don't write blogs for peoplemuch anymore.
(12:03):
It's just not what I enjoydoing.
I like doing the ghostwritingand the content strategy, so I
love what you do when you justdo it on the phone.
Let's talk for a second, though, about the level of confidence
that that takes and the factthat your sales process and you
are incredibly sure of whatyou're going to charge and
(12:27):
you're able to figure that upreally quickly on the call,
because that's where a lot ofpeople really struggle.
In my conversations with them,I feel like the client put me on
the spot.
So how do you prevent thatfeeling?
How do you?
Do you have like a pricingguide that's yours and yours
alone, or do you just know atthis point, this is the value,
(12:50):
this is what I'm bringing to thetable.
Jamie Brindle (12:51):
Yeah well, here is the value, this is what I'm
bringing to the table.
Yeah Well, here's the secret.
Guys, Even 15 years into thisthing, I still have a cheat
sheet that is up on my computerbefore I call, like this and it
makes you look awesome becauseit's written in kind of a choose
your own adventure style.
If they say this, here's whereyou're going.
If they say this, this is whatyou're going to say.
(13:12):
It's not a script, becausethat's you immediately.
People figure that one out realquick and that's just a weird
conversation.
It's not that.
It's.
Here are the questions I'masking to determine their budget
.
Here are the questions I'masking to determine what they're
really going to respond to,essentially, what their goals
are, what their magic wandexperiment.
Everything goes according toplan.
(13:33):
Everything works out betterthan you would ever imagine it
would.
What is the result here?
What are we aiming for?
It's things like that.
We're trying to get them,trying to get an understanding
of their objectives.
But yeah, there is a definitecheat sheet up on my computer
that I've just gotten very goodat using.
Oh, that is it's practice.
Once you have a very similarconversation a number of times,
(13:54):
it gets a lot easier.
But yeah, it's very rare that Igo into a call like that,
especially with a significantproject, without having planned
out exactly how you know theeight different ways this
conversation could go.
Treasa Edmond (14:08):
Yeah.
So that's why he doesn't haveto send a proposal, because he's
already done all of thethinking work before the call.
If you need to weigh everythingand do it after the call, or if
you're not good being put onthe spot, so if you're not good
ad-libbing and being reallyconfident and saying to a client
to their face, I'm going tocharge you $25,000 for this
(14:30):
project, or the investment forthis project would be $25,000.
That either takes an incredibleamount of moxie or you just
have to be a sociopath andyou're able to lie with a
straight face every single time.
Whichever it works, but youhave to Whatever gets it done
Whatever gets it done.
But you just you do have topractice, and if you're, you can
(14:54):
either practice on potentialclients or you could find a
person you could join a group,you could do a thing where
you're actually practicingdiscovery calls.
And if you get paired up with apartner who throws curve balls
at you, all the better, becausethat simple act of responding to
one of those really stupidthings in real time means you
(15:16):
can do it on a client call andnot have a problem.
One other thing I would add forSophia, and this is why my
success rate's 95% I do not sendproposals to clients I don't
want to work with.
I do not send proposals toclients I don't want to work
with.
I send them a very nice emailsaying I'm not a fit for this
project and it doesn't fit in myschedule.
(15:37):
I'm happy to refer you tosomeone else.
Let me know if that issomething that you're interested
in.
It was lovely talking to you.
All the best with your project.
And if they were a red flagdiscovery call?
They slipped through thepre-qualification process and
then they threw up all kinds ofred flags the man who does the
(15:58):
verbal equivalent of smackingyou on the ass when you walk by.
You just send them a one-lineemail.
Sorry, I almost made Jamie spitout his drink.
You send them a one-line emailand say I'm not a good fit for
this project.
I wish you all the best, that'sall.
You don't have to offer reasonsand excuses.
Read the room.
(16:18):
You might be sending proposalsfor clients who really weren't
even interested on the discoverycall.
That's a possibility.
Jamie's way weeds them outreally quickly because Jamie
gives them a price and they saythat doesn't work for us and
then the call's over and you'redone with it, and I'm sure you
also pre-qualify your clients.
Jamie Brindle (16:38):
Oh yeah, you hit on that so I figured I wouldn't
tread that ground again, butthat is another big part of it
is that you don't want to wasteanybody's time, theirs or yours.
If you know how this one'sgoing to end, don't even bother.
But if they're qualified, thenwe're all in on it.
Treasa Edmond (16:53):
Yeah.
So, sophia, whichever way yougo, come up with a system, even
if it's Jamie's cheat sheetsystem or a full on onboarding
process, whatever it is, have aprocess of some kind, because
that's what gives you theconfidence, I think, to really
move forward with that.
Jamie Brindle (17:09):
Absolutely.
It gives you the confidence andit gives the client the
confidence to move forward withyou, because it says, okay, this
person has a game plan here,this person has a way to get it
done.
Treasa Edmond (17:19):
Yep, and it works .
I think one of the things thatmakes it even more powerful is
when you're honestly in therelationship with the goal of
making life easier for yourclient in some way, rather than
I'm going to charge them the bigbucks because they know, they
absolutely know if you're in itfor the money or if you're in it
to partner with them and solvea problem and that's been our
(17:40):
theme of the week but partnerwith them rather than doing the
thing.
And if proposals are notworking for you, try Jamie's
method or just do a verbalproposal, say, let me come up
with all of the details on theproject and we can jump back on
another call and I can sharethose with you.
Nobody ever said a proposal hasto be a written document.
Jamie Brindle (17:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Treasa Edmond (18:00):
And then you can ask them to bring the decision
maker to that second call.
Jamie Brindle (18:05):
Definitely.
Treasa Edmond (18:06):
That works All right.
That is the end of day fourwith Jamie.
Tomorrow we're going to do abit of
Welcome back to Boss Responses.
Have you ever gone through adiscovery call with a client,
spent what felt like forever ona proposal, sent it off and then
crickets?
That's what's happened toSophia, who's asking our
question today.
It's a tricky situation.
I have a lot of thoughts onproposals.
(00:20):
Jamie has a completelydifferent process.
So today you get to hear abouttwo separate processes that both
have very high success rates.
It's dealer's choice.
You can choose the one that'sright for you.
Let's go ahead and get into it.
If you're a freelancer, businessowner or anyone who deals with
clients, you're in the rightplace.
I'm your host, teresa Edmond.
(00:41):
I've been dealing with clientsand running my business for
nearly two decades and in thattime I've dealt with my share of
doubt, imposter syndrome andnot knowing what to say when a
client asked a question I wasn'tready for.
I created this podcast toempower you with the boss
responses you need to grow yourbusiness.
Each week, my guest co-host andI will bring you five episodes
(01:04):
packed with practical insights.
Monday through Thursday, weanswer your questions, and
Fridays we dive deep to explorehow our co-hosts embrace their
role as the boss of theirbusiness.
Welcome to Boss Responses.
We are back for day four withJamie.
(01:25):
Jamie, what is the question fortoday?
Jamie Brindle (01:35):
Let's see here.
Today's question is from Sophiafrom Melbourne, australia, or I
guess Melbourne is how.
I have to say that I have afriend from Australia that
taught me the proper way to sayMelbourne.
Sophia's question is I keepgetting ghosted after sending
proposals.
I take the time to put togetherdetailed plans for potential
clients, but I never hear back.
Is there something that Ishould be doing differently to
improve my response rate?
(01:56):
What do you think?
Treasa Edmond (01:58):
Do you know what?
I've helped five I just countedthem up in my head Five people
with proposals over the lastmonth, and so I kind of know
some of the issues Sophia isprobably dealing with here.
I will say from the outset yoursystem is probably flawed.
If you are just dropping aproposal on a client and waiting
(02:21):
for them to respond, thenyou've set yourself up for
failure.
Tough love.
Sorry, I don't want to say itthat way, but it needs to be
said.
Your proposals should be a partof your onboarding process.
They're not a standalone thing.
They're not a I might get thisclient, I might not.
If you go into it knowing thatit's part of a process, it's
(02:42):
going to end with you workingwith that client.
Then you have a system in placeto follow up on every step of
it and you're going to get aresponse one way or another and
then you can tweak it until youstart getting more and more
positive responses.
So my recommendation for thissituation is to work on your
system first and then work onyour proposal.
(03:04):
So system to me looks like thisand it'll be interesting to see
kind of what you recommend onthis.
Jamie, I do pre-qualificationdiscovery call.
My discovery call is 90%questions.
I ask them to determine scope,success metrics, what the
project actually needs to looklike, all of the details, who it
(03:24):
matters to which competitorsthey're competing with.
I get strategic in that.
I take that.
I also know from that call whatthey think they need for this
project.
I take everything they'veanswered and I put together a
proposal that I never spend morethan 30 minutes on because I
have a template ready to go.
(03:45):
I put together a proposal thatincludes multiple options.
The first one is always whatthey think they want, scaled to
meet the budget that they'vegiven me.
The second option is always topend of their budget, what I
believe they need and it couldeven be more than their budget.
But I'm very clear in mymessaging in that proposal why
I'm recommending it, whatthey're going to get out of it,
(04:07):
what problems it's solving forthem and why I think they need
that instead of what they askedfor.
And then I have an everythingand the kitchen sink option.
That is value added through thewazoo.
It includes extra strategicguidance.
It's really truly partneringwith them.
90% of my clients choose optionthree because they see the
(04:32):
value in the call and in theproposal to do the thing and the
ones who don't choose optiontwo.
I've never had anyone since Istarted this process.
Choose what they thought theywanted.
Jamie Brindle (04:41):
Go with their gut yeah.
Treasa Edmond (04:42):
Yeah, Don't go with their gut.
So I do the proposal, myproposals.
This is the part that takes alittle bit of extra time.
I never spend more than half anhour putting that proposal
together.
And it's laid out, it's pretty,it's in their branding colors.
If it's a project, that's morethan a certain dollar amount
because effort scales with money, right, Jamie?
And then I record a quickwalkthrough of that proposal on
(05:08):
a Loom video and I include thelink to that in the email I send
them at the top of the proposal.
And then I have already, on mydiscovery call, scheduled a call
with them to go over theproposal in person and answer
any questions they have.
And then the proposal has anexpiration date seven days, 14
(05:30):
days, whatever they thought itwould take to get approvals.
If they go past that date, wereevaluate pricing, we
reevaluate availability.
I do not hold space in myschedule until they have signed
off on the proposal agreed tothe contract.
So all of the agreements are inplace and I've received my
deposit.
When you put those deadlines inplace and stack them up, your
(05:51):
clients are going to respondfaster and you have a process
then that led from I'vequalified them as a potential
client to.
We now have a starting date forthe project and if you go
through that every time, youdon't have to think about it.
You don't have to do any secondguessing.
The only thing you have to dois look at your calendar, see if
you have availability,translate the answers to their
(06:13):
questions onto the proposal,come up with the options that
you're going to give them andI'm telling you my success rate
since I started that proposalprocess has I calculated the
other day because someone askedme to, and I'm at 95% success
rate on converting proposals.
Clients like it.
When you have a straightforward, easy to follow system, what do
(06:35):
you do, Jamie?
Jamie Brindle (06:36):
Well, first of all, damn damn on that 95.
Nice, nicely done.
Treasa Edmond (06:41):
It's amazing, but I pre-qualify.
That's important.
Jamie Brindle (06:44):
That's.
That's important, for sure.
Okay, every industry is alittle different.
On the proposal side of thingsand on what's expected and
what's not, I will say that inmy Over 15 years of doing this,
I personally have made maybethree proposals.
(07:05):
It's something that I don'tparticipate in that often and I
find isn't necessarily requiredfor the way that I like to
acquire or convert leads intoclients, which I think this is
pretty beneficial to see twovery different ways to do it.
For me, it all happens in realtime, on the call, and it's me
(07:31):
walking them through all thequestions.
How are you going to measuresuccess for this?
Have you ever done this before?
If so, what are some things youwant to replicate, some things
you want to avoid?
If not, what are some anxietiesyou might have about this
process?
What are the things you'relooking forward to?
Who are our decision makers?
What's our schedule lookinglike?
Okay, here's my recommendationon a budget range something big
(07:51):
to give us to talk to.
We're from X to Y to give us aconversation starter.
Now let's talk about budget.
Okay, you walk them through thewhole thing.
At the end of it, you've got agame plan and a pretty rough
budget established and you sayare we ready to do this or not?
It's like we're right then andthere because I want to have
that conversation with them.
(08:11):
I think that any time that I'vesent a number and I've sent a
game plan, it does encourageghosting.
But also, you don't know ifyou're being ghosted.
And putting a timeline on ithelps for sure, but I would
catch myself negotiating againstmyself.
Five days after sending it I'dsend another email.
(08:31):
Hey, just check it in.
Also, if the number was wrong,let's talk it over.
I can come up with a way to getus down to a lower number, xyz
when really they'd alreadydecided that they were going to
do it and they were just waitingon approval from the boss, or
there are any number of thingscould be happening when you
think you're being ghosted.
So I want to be in the room forthat conversation.
So I like to present the planand the number then and there on
(08:54):
that call, get everybody signedoff to it and then most that
will happen afterwards is thescope of work will get sent over
for final sign off.
Yeah, but that's the way thatwe do it, because there is no,
they can't ghost you on the call, right?
They can't just.
Treasa Edmond (09:08):
Oh, they can, but .
Jamie Brindle (09:12):
Oops, oops.
Treasa Edmond (09:13):
I lost my internet connection.
Jamie Brindle (09:15):
But it is something that is just something
that I remember we wereconsulting on a production for a
very, very large brand, topfive brand in the world size
company, and they asked me canyou put together a deck of
everything that we just talkedabout?
My inner monologue is going why, like we just talked, like we
just talked about it, and thenthey say you put together a deck
(09:37):
and we'll have another call andgo go through your proposal?
Treasa Edmond (09:41):
Bureaucracy man.
Jamie Brindle (09:43):
I said, okay, all right.
And the morning of that callagain huge company.
I opened up Keynote and justmade my deck and they all get on
the call and it's two slidesthe first slide is the problem
and the second slide is thesolution, with the budget on it,
and we hashed it out and Iguess they just needed that to
(10:07):
feel like they needed the visual.
But that's probably as close toa proposal as I've gotten in a
long time.
Treasa Edmond (10:13):
That's lovely.
So I do want to clarify.
I do high value work likeperceived and actual.
So ghostwriting a book, thereare a lot of details that need
to be agreed on in writing tomake sure that there's
accountability on both sides.
And with content strategiesthere are a lot of moving pieces
(10:33):
, a lot of deadlines, a lot ofrequirements for things that
need done on both sides forsuccess.
So I do proposals because itclearly outlines that and it
provides that level ofaccountability on both sides
from the get-go.
And now ghostwriting I'm usuallytalking to the person who's
going to sign off on it.
So my proposal is my contractwith ghostwriting.
(10:56):
Everything is in there thatthey need.
I have a brief thing onpayments.
I don't go into a lot ofclauses because it freaks them
out If they need a contentstrategy.
My initial point of contact onthe discovery call is very
rarely the decision maker andthey need something in writing
(11:18):
to take to the decision maker toactually say this is what we're
going to do.
Now do I do full-on proposalsfor blog posts?
Never that I give them pricingon the phone because I know
ahead of time what I'm willingto do that for.
Or that I give them pricing onthe phone, because I know ahead
of time what I'm willing to dothat for and we just do the
thing.
But yeah, for more complexprojects.
The primary point of a proposalis so they can see everything
(11:42):
clearly outlined.
The biggest thing and this iswhy I send the Loom video is
because the decision maker wasnot in the room, yeah, is
because the decision maker wasnot in the room, yeah, and this
gives them the opportunity tosee my face, to understand that
this is an important process andto do the thing.
My success rate on blogsprobably isn't as high, but I
don't write blogs for peoplemuch anymore.
(12:03):
It's just not what I enjoydoing.
I like doing the ghostwritingand the content strategy, so I
love what you do when you justdo it on the phone.
Let's talk for a second, though, about the level of confidence
that that takes and the factthat your sales process and you
are incredibly sure of whatyou're going to charge and
(12:27):
you're able to figure that upreally quickly on the call,
because that's where a lot ofpeople really struggle.
In my conversations with them,I feel like the client put me on
the spot.
So how do you prevent thatfeeling?
How do you?
Do you have like a pricingguide that's yours and yours
alone, or do you just know atthis point, this is the value,
(12:50):
this is what I'm bringing to thetable.
Jamie Brindle (12:51):
Yeah well, here is the value, this is what I'm
bringing to the table.
Yeah Well, here's the secret.
Guys, Even 15 years into thisthing, I still have a cheat
sheet that is up on my computerbefore I call, like this and it
makes you look awesome becauseit's written in kind of a choose
your own adventure style.
If they say this, here's whereyou're going.
If they say this, this is whatyou're going to say.
(13:12):
It's not a script, becausethat's you immediately.
People figure that one out realquick and that's just a weird
conversation.
It's not that.
It's.
Here are the questions I'masking to determine their budget
.
Here are the questions I'masking to determine what they're
really going to respond to,essentially, what their goals
are, what their magic wandexperiment.
Everything goes according toplan.
(13:33):
Everything works out betterthan you would ever imagine it
would.
What is the result here?
What are we aiming for?
It's things like that.
We're trying to get them,trying to get an understanding
of their objectives.
But yeah, there is a definitecheat sheet up on my computer
that I've just gotten very goodat using.
Oh, that is it's practice.
Once you have a very similarconversation a number of times,
(13:54):
it gets a lot easier.
But yeah, it's very rare that Igo into a call like that,
especially with a significantproject, without having planned
out exactly how you know theeight different ways this
conversation could go.
Treasa Edmond (14:08):
Yeah.
So that's why he doesn't haveto send a proposal, because he's
already done all of thethinking work before the call.
If you need to weigh everythingand do it after the call, or if
you're not good being put onthe spot, so if you're not good
ad-libbing and being reallyconfident and saying to a client
to their face, I'm going tocharge you $25,000 for this
(14:30):
project, or the investment forthis project would be $25,000.
That either takes an incredibleamount of moxie or you just
have to be a sociopath andyou're able to lie with a
straight face every single time.
Whichever it works, but youhave to Whatever gets it done
Whatever gets it done.
But you just you do have topractice, and if you're, you can
(14:54):
either practice on potentialclients or you could find a
person you could join a group,you could do a thing where
you're actually practicingdiscovery calls.
And if you get paired up with apartner who throws curve balls
at you, all the better, becausethat simple act of responding to
one of those really stupidthings in real time means you
(15:16):
can do it on a client call andnot have a problem.
One other thing I would add forSophia, and this is why my
success rate's 95% I do not sendproposals to clients I don't
want to work with.
I do not send proposals toclients I don't want to work
with.
I send them a very nice emailsaying I'm not a fit for this
project and it doesn't fit in myschedule.
(15:37):
I'm happy to refer you tosomeone else.
Let me know if that issomething that you're interested
in.
It was lovely talking to you.
All the best with your project.
And if they were a red flagdiscovery call?
They slipped through thepre-qualification process and
then they threw up all kinds ofred flags the man who does the
(15:58):
verbal equivalent of smackingyou on the ass when you walk by.
You just send them a one-lineemail.
Sorry, I almost made Jamie spitout his drink.
You send them a one-line emailand say I'm not a good fit for
this project.
I wish you all the best, that'sall.
You don't have to offer reasonsand excuses.
Read the room.
(16:18):
You might be sending proposalsfor clients who really weren't
even interested on the discoverycall.
That's a possibility.
Jamie's way weeds them outreally quickly because Jamie
gives them a price and they saythat doesn't work for us and
then the call's over and you'redone with it, and I'm sure you
also pre-qualify your clients.
Jamie Brindle (16:38):
Oh yeah, you hit on that so I figured I wouldn't
tread that ground again, butthat is another big part of it
is that you don't want to wasteanybody's time, theirs or yours.
If you know how this one'sgoing to end, don't even bother.
But if they're qualified, thenwe're all in on it.
Treasa Edmond (16:53):
Yeah.
So, sophia, whichever way yougo, come up with a system, even
if it's Jamie's cheat sheetsystem or a full on onboarding
process, whatever it is, have aprocess of some kind, because
that's what gives you theconfidence, I think, to really
move forward with that.
Jamie Brindle (17:09):
Absolutely.
It gives you the confidence andit gives the client the
confidence to move forward withyou, because it says, okay, this
person has a game plan here,this person has a way to get it
done.
Treasa Edmond (17:19):
Yep, and it works .
I think one of the things thatmakes it even more powerful is
when you're honestly in therelationship with the goal of
making life easier for yourclient in some way, rather than
I'm going to charge them the bigbucks because they know, they
absolutely know if you're in itfor the money or if you're in it
to partner with them and solvea problem and that's been our
(17:40):
theme of the week but partnerwith them rather than doing the
thing.
And if proposals are notworking for you, try Jamie's
method or just do a verbalproposal, say, let me come up
with all of the details on theproject and we can jump back on
another call and I can sharethose with you.
Nobody ever said a proposal hasto be a written document.
Jamie Brindle (17:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Treasa Edmond (18:00):
And then you can ask them to bring the decision
maker to that second call.
Jamie Brindle (18:05):
Definitely.
Treasa Edmond (18:06):
That works All right.
That is the end of day fourwith Jamie.
Tomorrow we're going to do abit of
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