July 7, 2025 • 53 mins
Guest Name: Dr. PatHeist
Guest Company: Wilderness Trail Distillery
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
It's time for Bourbon with Friends, the
bourbon podcast that never takesitself too seriously.
Pull up a chair, grab a glassand remember, a bourbon with
friends can change the world.
Here we go.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Hey everybody, welcome to Bourbon Friends.
This is Joe, the editor, and wehave Ryan Thompson here from
Tenth Mountain Whiskey andSpirit Company.
He's our proud sponsor of thispodcast and he will be joining
for this interview today.
So Ryan, why don't you give ourlisteners a little bit of
background about yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (00:48):
Hey, thanks, Joe.
I appreciate it and appreciatebeing here with everyone from
Bourbon with Friends.
It's a special day for me withthe interview we have going on.
But I've been a fan of the showfrom behind the scenes for a
long time now.
When Brian and company took itover about a year, a year and a
half ago, Brian and I are closefriends and we got to talking
about it.
And so I thought it wassomething that I should probably
(01:10):
sponsor from a businessperspective, just because of all
the passion and excitementaround the industry and around
Bourbon with Friends.
And so happy to be on this sideof the table to be on the
interviewing side and have aspecial guest today with Dr.
Pat Heist from Wilderness Trail.
And so I couldn't be moreexcited.
It's quite an honor for me tointerview one of my mentors over
(01:32):
the last 10 years and somebodyI've looked up to in the
business.
So I'm excited to be here andexcited to pick Pat's brain a
little bit about what's going onwith Wilderness
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Trail.
Yes, most definitely.
And here we have Mr.
Pat Heist from Wilderness Trail.
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
All right, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Good morning, sir.
SPEAKER_03 (01:48):
Hey, Dr.
Pat.
Welcome, sir.
Yeah, great to be here.
Thanks for the flatteringintroduction.
SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
Hey, man, we're just getting started.
I'm going to try to make youblush here right now.
So let's see how good of a job Ican do because I want to give
you an introduction.
But before I get into that, Iwant to certainly give a shout
out and a thank you to theCampari Group, to the Wilderness
Trail Distillery, to Pat Heissfor hosting Joe and I and a
couple other folks from a mediaperspective at the distillery a
couple of weeks ago.
(02:15):
It was an incredible trip, anincredible experience.
Got to taste, obviously, someamazing whiskeys and got to hang
out with Dr.
Pat for a couple of days and Sojust a big shout out and a big
thank you to the whole groupthere.
Pat, you have a couple of yearsunder your belt here now, man.
You're a wise fellow is what Ilike to say, man.
You were born and raised inKentucky.
(02:37):
You got a BS, an MS, and a PhD,all from the University of
Kentucky.
Not a lot of people can saythat.
So Dr.
Pat is one of the smartestfellows in the industry.
So kudos to him on that.
You served as a professor ofmedical micropathology at the
Kentucky College of OsteopathicMedicine.
So there's that, right?
(02:59):
That sounds incredibly cool.
In 2006, you founded FirmSolutions with business partner
Shane Baker.
I'm sure Shane will come up on atime or two during this
conversation For everyone thatdoes not know what Firm Solution
is, it's a consultancy andsupplier specializing in yeast
strains, enzymes,antimicrobials, and fermentation
support for distilleries,wineries, breweries, and the
(03:21):
fuel industry worldwide.
Basically, anybody that makesethanol, you work with is what
it sounds like.
Uh, in 2013, you and Shanedecided to start your own
distillery wilderness trail inDanville, Kentucky, make it a
Danville's first legaldistillery since prohibition,
which, which is always a nicefeather in somebody's cap.
Uh, you started with pot stillbatches and then, uh, expanded
(03:42):
soon thereafter in 2016 withcolumn stills.
Uh, and then, uh, got tosubsequent subsequent growth
from that, uh, ultimatelybecoming one of the top bourbon
producers, uh, not onlyKentucky, but, uh, worldwide,
which is, uh, incrediblyimpressive.
Uh, You got a lot ofrecognition.
Wilderness Trail was honored asKentucky's manufacturer of the
year in 2016.
(04:04):
You and Baker were named EYEntrepreneurs of the Year in
2020.
which is damn cool.
Uh, the distillery became the18th official stop on the
Kentucky bourbon trail in 2020.
So while everyone's dealing withCOVID here, you are just out
there kicking ass still.
Uh, and then October, 2022Campari group acquired, uh, what
is it?
70% stake, I believe, uh, tohelp aid in the further
(04:25):
expansion.
And we'll probably get in someof those details as well.
Uh, and one fun fact foreverybody is that, uh, Dr.
Heist, uh, has a TEDx talk outthere.
So you got to go check that outtoo.
So, uh, uh, Did I do all right,Dr.
Pat?
Did I miss anything in yourlongest season?
Oh, yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (04:41):
no.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
No, that was pretty thorough there.
I don't know what else I got tooffer now after that.
Well, to put a bow on it, he wasout blue crab fishing this
morning, so how about that?
SPEAKER_03 (04:53):
That's right.
I'm no good at that, so I'mworking on that accolade,
building it up a little bit.
I also do play in a rock bandcalled Zella Mae, so if anyone
gets on Spotify, check it out.
There you go.
Say the name again.
It's called Zella, Z-E-L-L-A,May, M-A-Y, and put an
exclamation point after it.
(05:14):
For some reason, I think mydrummer put an exclamation
point, so that's the only wayyou find it.
SPEAKER_02 (05:19):
So if your whiskey career doesn't go in the right
direction, you can always fallback on your rock career.
Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_03 (05:25):
That's right.
If the listeners would just givethat a listen, I think five
views would double our total.
SPEAKER_02 (05:33):
I love it, man.
I guess one more thing is thatyou are a pinball aficionado as
well.
I know that about you.
Pinball?
Yeah.
Oh,
SPEAKER_03 (05:41):
yeah, I play it.
SPEAKER_02 (05:43):
I've seen you been playing it late at the bars one
night, so we'll save that foranother time.
Yeah, go ahead, Joe.
I was
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
going to say, so, Pat, can you, you know, like,
again, thank you for yourhospitality when you invited us
out there.
We both had a great time.
You're amazing.
Your facility is awesome.
Can you give us maybe a rundown?
I mean, we've been there.
We've seen it.
But maybe give us a rundown forour listeners on your acreage,
number of rack houses, yourstills.
Just give us a little breakdownof your distillery and what your
(06:14):
production is maybe per day, perweek, or whatever.
SPEAKER_03 (06:16):
Yeah.
So I'll preface where we're attoday with where we were at 13
years ago for a littleencouragement for anyone looking
to start a business is we wereonly making one barrel a day on
a 200 gallon pot still 13.
years ago.
That's how we started thedistillery.
Today, we, and that was actuallyin the back room of our firm
(06:40):
solutions business.
Today, we're on 165 acre campus,have about 300,000 barrels
stored across 17, 24,000 barrelrickhouses.
And we have our still, we haveour 200 gallon pot still, but in
addition, we've got a 16 inchdiameter.
That's how you are 18 inchdiameter, right?
(07:02):
Whether you refer to columnstills by their diameter,
they're actually 43, 44 feethigh.
But an 18-inch diameter columnand a 36-inch diameter column
together, those are capable ofproducing 220 barrels of bourbon
a day at our facility.
So that's kind of where we're atnow, 165-acre campus.
(07:27):
And I think we get around...
tens of thousands of visitors ayear on the Kentucky Bourbon
Trail.
So it's really blossomed into aheck of a business and a heck of
a brand over the last 13 shortyears.
That's
SPEAKER_00 (07:42):
awesome.
Yeah, actually, well, both Brianand a couple of other hosts, we
actually have a close friendwho's actually in Kentucky right
now doing the trail.
They actually own property, Ithink somewhere outside of
Lexington.
And they've been I know everyyear they go and they're going
to, they'll probably visit you.
And of course, some of yourother friends and or
competitors, depending how youwant to see how you want to say
(08:03):
it.
Yeah.
Uh, so, uh, so Shane, uh, I'msorry, Pat, you and Shane
started a firm solutions beforelaunching on this trail.
Was there any moment that youknew it was time to start or
what was there a moment when youknew it was time from going,
helping others to making yourown stuff?
UNKNOWN (08:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:25):
I mean, you know, we thought about it a lot.
You know, we're here inKentucky, so it's always in our
faces.
We had a company, you know, thatwas marketing fermentation
products to a lot of the bigbourbon distilleries, you know,
but over the course of theseveral years that we were
running Firm Solutions, leadingup to starting Wilderness Trail,
(08:47):
I mean, our day-to-day jobs wereto basically get customers that
are going to buy yeast and otherproducts to But second of all,
to keep that business, you know,if the fermenter is not bubbling
right, the yeast provider is thefirst one to get the phone call
of, hey, man, something's notgoing right here.
In fact, your yeast isn'tworking.
So, you know, you got to kind ofstart there and figure out
(09:10):
what's the real problem.
So our day to day jobs weregoing into distilleries and
breweries and trying to figureout what was the real problem.
It's probably not the yeast.
Is it the temperature?
Is it the pH?
Are you properly convertingstarch into ferment?
Yeah, absolutely.
(09:55):
kind of dawned on us that weprobably know more about
distilleries than anybody elsein the world.
So why don't we start our owndistillery?
So, you know, just at some pointin time.
And the other thing is we've gota couple other reasons besides
just having the knowledge tostart the distillery.
We've got history, you know,we're both born and raised in
Kentucky.
(10:15):
My family's got a little bit ofa, you can't really be
multi-generational in Kentuckyand not have some tie to the
whiskey business.
My great grandfather used towork for Seagram's Shane's
family.
has a very robust history indistilling.
His grandmother worked at theKentucky River Distillery, which
is where Wild Turkey owns thebear warehouses there at Camp
(10:37):
Nelson.
She actually retired from theStitzweller Distillery and met
her husband, Shane's grandfatherthere.
So deep distilling roots.
So we've always kind of had itin our blood of, you know, let's
start a distillery.
It's just a cool thing to do.
We're some of the hugest whiskeyfans on the kind of dream of,
(10:58):
golly, wouldn't it be cool tohave our own distillery?
But you got to have theknowledge, which we got through
Firm Solutions, and you got tohave capital, which we also got
through Firm Solutions.
And that led up to realizing thedream and starting the
distillery.
But definitely that familyhistory played into it, as well
(11:20):
as our experiences withWilderness Trail, or Firm
Solutions, rather.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Dr.
Pat, you started with that potstill and then moved on to a
couple other stills.
You mentioned that 18-inchdiameter column still as well.
But when you just had the potstill and you're on 165 acres
now, what did you guysoriginally start out with
size-wise?
I think, didn't you mention whenwe were out there, something
like 13 acres and something, youdidn't really have a thought
(11:46):
that it was going to expand intosomething this big.
Is that correct?
SPEAKER_03 (11:49):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, our original size was...
whatever the back closet in theback room of Firm Solutions.
SPEAKER_00 (11:56):
That's right.
SPEAKER_03 (11:57):
And the production part of it is one consideration.
The equipment, where's thatequipment going to go?
You're producing a flammableliquid.
What are the hazard concerns andall that?
But the bigger concern is whereare you going to store those
barrels?
So we had...
probably 200 barrels stacked upin the back of our firm
(12:21):
solutions building.
And, and, you know, basically wehad to build storage for that.
So that was kind of the exodusof the back room of the firm
solutions building to actuallypurchasing the property that
we're on now that we built asmall barrel warehouse.
And that was, you know, thatsolved that problem.
And so we didn't just start offon this farm.
(12:43):
We, we start off in the back ofour other business, you know, we
built a group, strapping thisthing in the beginning.
SPEAKER_02 (12:49):
Yeah, that's great, man.
I love that.
While you were scaling it up tothe size it is now, what were
some of the biggest challengesin growing this deal?
SPEAKER_03 (13:01):
Well, I think that for us, a lot of the challenges
were really around just thecapital and things, which we
were able to navigate aroundbecause Shane's a great business
guy.
We're kind of we both have aknack for identifying
(13:21):
opportunities.
And, you know, one thing inaddition to us having a dream of
creating a great brand, theopportunity came for contract
production.
So kind of in the middle of a,we're building a new steel and
we're going to increase ourproduction.
We also had severalopportunities that were
presented of making barrels forother brands.
(13:43):
And so that, factored into howwe expanded.
I mean, we didn't need to have adistillery that makes 220
barrels a day for our own usage.
At least we didn't initially,but we knew that we could use
that additional capacity to helpgenerate capital to, you know,
fund the business.
And so that's what we did.
(14:04):
Nowadays, you know, so westarted off this much capacity.
Well, we only need this much ofit.
So we got this much to makecontract.
And then little by little overthe years, as our brand has
grown, we've taken over more andmore of that capacity.
We still do a little bit ofcontract production, but we're
majority of production for ourown brand.
SPEAKER_02 (14:24):
What do you think it's 9, 90, 10 at this point or
80,
SPEAKER_03 (14:27):
20?
Uh, it's hard to say, you know,I don't know exactly where it
fluctuates also.
I mean, we, we may not even bemaking anything right this
second because it's summertimeand I know we've got a shutdown
plan.
So you just never know.
SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
Right.
Yep.
So
SPEAKER_00 (14:45):
I remember
SPEAKER_02 (14:46):
Joe,
SPEAKER_00 (14:47):
I was going to say, I remember during the tour,
you're mentioning how you alsostarted doing some barrel, uh,
warehousing as well, other thancontract distilling.
Are you still doing that or has,has your use been, you know,
with your production has takenthat over?
SPEAKER_03 (15:02):
Well, you know, when we built our first barrel
warehouse, we were also aware ofother craft distilleries having
the same storage issues that wewere having.
So we built our warehouse alittle larger to accommodate
some of it.
And that was, you know, part ofour entrepreneurial.
Hey, man, we can rent out spacein our barrel warehouse, make a
few extra bucks.
(15:22):
But when you produce contractwhiskey, almost always those
customers don't have a place forthem.
So if you're going to producewhiskey for someone, you better
have the storage.
Otherwise you're not going to beable to get the deals.
So that was something that wejust had to bake into there.
So we had the advantage of therevenue coming from the contract
production, but then alsoresidual revenue from storage of
(15:46):
those barrels over time.
That's a big part of ourbusiness.
SPEAKER_02 (15:52):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
absolutely.
So let's, let's, let's get moreinto your distilling process and
let's, and how you talked to usabout how Wilderness Trail uses
a sweet mash process instead ofthe common sour mash process.
Can you walk us through thatdecision and what made it a
difference in the final product?
SPEAKER_03 (16:14):
Yeah, and I can actually point out a couple
pretty substantial differencesin our process.
You know, the sweet mashprocess, that's something that
obviously, you know, mostKentucky bourbon producers are,
sour mash producers.
And that is where when you'remaking the mash, you're mixing
the milled grain flour with hotwater and back set.
(16:39):
Back set is the liquid left overfrom a previous distillation.
So you're going to add in,displace about 20 to 30% of that
water with back set.
That's how you do a sour mash.
It's called sour mash because itactually tastes sour.
It acidifies the mash.
Sweet mash, quite simply, iswe're just mixing all of our
(17:02):
grains in with fresh water eachand every time.
When we started our distillery,we had an excellent opportunity
to create something fromscratch.
And again, we're using commonsense to start with.
You know, we're not far off inthe outer space with any of our
ideas, but we wanted to createclassic quality whiskey very
(17:24):
consistently and at a very highlevel in terms of you know
sustainability the amount ofmoney that it costs to make it
always respecting the fact wewant to make the best bottle of
whiskey possible so the wholesweet mash thing was partially
To do a sweet mash, again,you're not acidifying the mash
(17:47):
in the beginning, so you're moresusceptible to microbial
contamination.
So we were showcasing, hey,we're microbiologists.
We're the company that otherdistilleries call when they have
contamination issues.
So we're just going to deal withthose because we know we
understand that part of theprocess.
We just exclude or...
(18:09):
do other things to avoid thebacteria from being a problem
rather than relying onacidification of the mash to do
that.
Because consistency is somethingthat we look at as an, I mean,
we want to make the same whiskeytoday as we did yesterday and
the same this year as we do nextyear and so on and so forth.
(18:29):
So having that consistency isvery important when we look at
the ingredients, the water thatwe're using, the grains that
we're using, the yeast strainthat we're using, All those
things are, you're able to keepthose very consistent.
Well, we start getting intothings like back set.
Now, if I'm adding 20 to 30% ofmy water is back set, every
batch is different.
(18:50):
So the back set from every batchis going to be different.
If I'm aiming for consistency,then I want to use fresh water
each time instead of back set,you know?
So that's kind of one thing thatwe, one of the rationale behind
going into a sweet mash isAnother thing is that we started
(19:11):
off as a very small operation.
We weren't operating 24-7.
Part of the mentality of using asire mash is if I'm
incorporating that material leftover from a previous batch
that's coming off the stillbefore it gets added into my
mash, that stuff's hot and I'mtrying to heat up my mash so I
(19:31):
get to recover that heat.
Not if you're running adistillery on one shift a day.
So next day when we come in,that still isn't even hot.
So we weren't getting thatadvantage.
Just for many reasons, we wantedto go with a sweet mash.
And the other thing is being thenew guys on the block, you know,
how can we differentiateourselves?
(19:51):
I mean, that's Sire Mash, SireMash, Sire Mash.
We got nothing against it.
We got half of my whiskey in mycollection is Sire Mash.
But just how do we differentiateourselves in this situation?
you know, pretty crowded market.
And that's just one way that wedid it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:07):
Yeah.
Well, thank you for that.
That's, that's a greatexplanation.
So, so you said that yeast isone of the most, at least
unappreciated elements.
I mean, I mean that you neverhear anyone talk about yeast
when you go to a distillery oryou talk to other, other
(20:29):
distillers.
Like we've done like 50 or 60episodes and I don't think
hardly any of them havementioned their yeast strains or
anything like that.
So can you explain how yeast andhow the different strains can
produce or change the flavorprofile?
SPEAKER_03 (20:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think first of all,going back to the observation
of, you know, why don't morepeople talk about it?
I think it's not easy.
as understood as it should be.
You know, the other thing, youknow, people that make
Coca-Cola, they don't talk abouthigh fructose corn syrup all day
either, but it's one of theingredients.
It's just like, hey, we add itand it's just, I'm sure it makes
(21:07):
a difference of where you get itand the quality and all that.
But it's just kind of one ofthose things where you can
reliably get it and you add itand it works, you know?
So there's not a lot of, I thinkthere's also a little bit of
secrecy.
So people don't talk about itbecause people don't want you to
know what yeast strain they'reusing.
You know, Wilderness Trail isvery different because we have
(21:28):
are founded out of thebeginnings of our fermentation
company.
And we're very open with ourmethodologies, with our yeast
strains.
And so, you know, we'll tell youwhat yeast strain we used.
You can see it on the side ofour barrel strength offerings.
And if you want to get that sameyeast strain, you just go on and
order it.
It's not that big of a deal interms of sharing that, you know.
(21:53):
It's a big deal in terms of howwe use those strains.
And we use about...
we rotate between about ninedifferent yeast strains for our
whiskey production.
And those are the same strainsthat we market to other
distilleries.
Now, how you use those strainsis, you know, we might use a
combination of yeast in onebatch versus the next.
So there's ways that I can takethe same yeast that everybody
(22:15):
else has and I can use itdifferently than they're using
it.
So it makes it my own.
So there's different ways torear the, am I just dumping the
yeast straight out of the baginto the fermenter or am I
propagating it first?
Am I adding any additionalnutrients that are going to
fortify or boost the activity ofthat yeast strain?
(22:36):
Anytime we're, you know, we'retalking mainly about whiskey
today, but we sell yeast towhiskey producers and just in
whiskey, there's scotch, Irishwhiskey, bourbons, American
single malt, rye whiskeys, a lotof different options there.
So we're going to use differentstrains based on what your goals
are there.
(22:57):
If you're making fuel ethanol,which you don't care about
flavor, you want as much alcoholas possible, you'll use a strain
that's more for that.
If you're making beer you mighthave a restriction on the
fermentation temperature like ifi'm making a lager for example
those are typically fermentedbetween 35 and 55 degrees
(23:19):
fahrenheit so i'm going to use ayeast strain that can withstand
that low temperature so a lot oftimes we're choosing yeast
strains based on what we'remaking and what type of process
is used in the definition ofwhat we're making.
And then over and above that, Imean, we're not playing around
(23:41):
trying to be creative.
Here, try this different strain.
We've never used this onebefore.
We've got data on all thesestrains.
If it's on our website, and thesame with other yeast suppliers,
and this is kind of wheredistilleries of today, you worry
about other things besides theyeast and let the yeast
providers worry about that part.
That's kind of why a lot ofpeople, it's out of sight, out
(24:03):
of mind, because they just, Iget that, and I don't worry
about that.
I know it's going to be good,and then you come up with, I
mean, there's so many reasonswhy you would get this flavor or
that flavor that's differentfrom the yeast.
I mean, there's evencontaminating organisms that
could make their way into yourfermenter.
So when people start mincing andslicing and dicing all the
(24:25):
different flavor characteristicsof whiskey and There's a lot of
times, oh, that's the yeast orthat's the barrel, when really
it's like you're just sayingthat.
I mean, there are definitelychemicals that are pinpointed
directly to the yeast or thebarrel, but a lot of times when
we're just hanging aroundtasting things, there's a lot of
just spitballing and cooler talkthat goes on in this industry
(24:49):
where people are just sayingstuff without really
substantiating it.
SPEAKER_02 (24:55):
Yeah, Pat, along those lines as well, speaking of
yeast and fermentation, if Iremember correctly, your
fermentation tanks are 2,000 to10,000 or are they up to 20,000
gallons at the shop there?
SPEAKER_03 (25:09):
Yeah, so we started with 400 or 500-gallon
fermenters.
We went to 4,000-gallonfermenters, and then now we're
up to 20,000-gallon fermenters.
So we've gone, experienceddifferent sizes of fermenters,
and we've been able to keep ourdistillate.
And same with stills.
We've gone from a pot still totwo different column stills, and
(25:31):
we're able to keep veryconsistent distillate.
SPEAKER_02 (25:34):
And no matter the size, are you fermenting for two
days?
SPEAKER_03 (25:42):
No, we're actually fermenting for three days on our
18-inch column side.
And that's just the way we runthe distillery.
So on the large side, which washistorically a lot of our
contract production, we werecutting those fermenters in as
little as two days.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (26:00):
right.
So it's just a different...
I mean, we might lose a littlebit of alcohol production in one
we're cutting, but...
There's yield, the number ofproof gallons of alcohol you
make per bushel of grain, andthere's production.
That's just total number ofbarrels I'm making in a day.
So if I got hot and heavycontract production coming in
(26:20):
and I want to make as manybarrels as I possibly can,
Rather than focusing on myyield, you know, the yield is
going to basically get you morevalue per bushel of grain.
The barrels, how many barrelsyou make is going to really
where your total cash flowcoming in.
Your cost of goods is going tobe a little affected whenever
your yield is not good.
(26:42):
But you're still that's justkind of two things that we.
toggle between is alcohol yieldsand alcohol production so we
might lose a little bit one dayon yield to make up for it on a
few extra barrels
SPEAKER_02 (26:57):
right so that
SPEAKER_03 (26:58):
would be kind of getting back to the two day
versus three day fermentations
SPEAKER_02 (27:02):
yeah makes sense absolutely You guys at
Wilderness Trail there havethree different types of
whiskeys and then maybe somebarrel proofs every now and
again as well, it sounds like.
Why did you choose those threein particular to lead with your
brand?
SPEAKER_03 (27:18):
Well, we started with a weeded bourbon and that
was really our, you got your owndistillery, you want to make
stuff like you want it.
So we are big fans of weededbourbons and that's what we
wanted to start with.
The other thing is we knew wewanted to do as much business in
Kentucky as possible.
We're a Kentucky proudoperation.
And, you know, wheat was readilyavailable in Kentucky.
(27:41):
So we actually waited an extrayear to produce rye whiskey or
high rye bourbon because it tooka year to get it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:49):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, let's change this up abit.
I'm talking a little bit ofnerdy stuff.
And let's go with a little funquestion we like doing here on
Bourbon with Friends.
All right, Pat.
So.
Let's say you had to assemble adistilling dream team, but the
characters or those dream teamhad to be from a movie or TV
(28:11):
show, and they had to embodyscience, artistry, and, of
course, your rock and rollbackground.
Can you think of some charactersin a TV or movie show that would
do that?
SPEAKER_03 (28:24):
Let's see here.
That's well, I think I wouldwant the professor off
Gilligan's Island because hecomes up with all these great
ideas.
I mean, remember the episodewhenever they had all the
radioactive seeds and he madethem eat soap to like overcome
all their symptoms.
I mean, that's genius, you know,so I definitely want him on
there.
(28:45):
I think MacGyver, you know, Ialways refer to Shane as
MacGyver, but if I couldn't haveShane on my team and I got to
pick somebody off a TV show,it'd probably be MacGyver just
for what he can create on the TVshow.
Hopefully that would translateinto my, my new world.
And then golly, that's that's Iknow my list would go beyond
(29:11):
there, but those are two thatcome to mind immediately.
Or how about someone in the rockand roll world?
Who would you
SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
want on your team?
SPEAKER_03 (29:17):
Dang, man, that would be, well, a lot of the
ones I'd want on there dead.
So that puts a little damper init, but if I could bring
somebody back, you know, I mean,golly, you know, I probably want
David Lee Roth as my brandambassador and, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (29:38):
Awesome.
Awesome.
Well, thank you.
Yeah.
Like I said, we like to break upthe, not the monotony, but kind
of the nerdiness and, and, andthe flow of the podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (29:49):
Well, if it's called Heavy Metal with Friends, we'd
be talking for three or fourhours.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
Well, that's a good thing that Martin's not on the
show tonight because he is ametalhead.
And we get on some livessometimes on Instagram and they
talk metal for hours.
That's
SPEAKER_02 (30:04):
what
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
we do.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:06):
Dr.
Pat, you did a TEDx talk, and itwas on the climate change
impacting bourbon.
How do you see that going downover the next few decades?
I'd love to get your viewpointon that.
SPEAKER_03 (30:19):
Yeah, climate change, you know, that's always
important because, you know,starting with the trees growing
in the woods, which is where weget the barrels from, you know,
some of the trees that we getbarrels from are 100 years old.
So the climate changes.
It definitely affects how thosetrees mature and the quality of
the wood.
(30:40):
Same with the grains growing inthe field.
You know, the climate from oneyear to the next affects yields
of grain out of the field interms of bushels per acre.
The distilleries are pretty wellkind of climate controlled and
all that kind of stuff, youknow.
You can make, given the fact wecan make bourbon anywhere in the
(31:02):
United States, and I've visiteddistilleries all over in almost
every state, and you can make asimilar distillate no matter
where you're at, I believe.
Because there are some thingslike barometric pressure and
things that are going to be alittle different from one place
to the next.
But if you get, I mean, you canship grains from anywhere.
(31:24):
We tend to use local grains.
But given the fact you can shipgrains around, conceivably, you
can make similar distillate nomatter where you are in the
United States if you got theright climate control in your
operation.
But the whole...
Aging in the barrel warehouse,that's a whole nother part of
the process, you know, andthat's where we've got
(31:46):
evaporative loss that'soccurring.
I mean, you put barrels in SouthTexas barrels.
or out in nevada and if youdon't have some type of humidity
control there's not going to bea drop of anything left in those
barrels after two or three yearsso we've got to consider
evaporative loss and as it getsdrier and less humid we're going
(32:07):
to lose more whiskey thatconcentrates the whiskey down in
there it has a lot to do withflavor the cool and the hot
cycles are what facilitate theexpansion and contraction of the
whiskey in and out of the woodthat is responsible for
extracting a lot of those woodchemicals.
(32:28):
And then lastly, you havechemical reactions that are
occurring over time that thatwill govern what esters are
going to be produced and whattypes of chemicals are going to
be produced, what complexityyou're going to get in that
barrel.
And then lastly, if you considerthe aging process or the
(32:52):
maturing process of the wooditself, the seasoning of the
wood, prior to construction ofthe barrel.
So you cut the trees, you makethe staves.
The barrel producers actuallywill let those staves season out
in the field, out in the yardthere for up to two years.
Our barrels are 18 to 24 monthair dried.
(33:13):
So they're seasoned for 18 to 24months.
You let that wood set outside,gets exposed to the rain, the
hot, the cold, et cetera, etcetera, you let that wood sit
there for 10 years and you'dhave a pile of sawdust sitting
there.
But over the course of sixmonths, a year, two years, you
start that degradation processwhich is eventually going to
(33:36):
result in disintegration of thatstave.
But just the beginnings of thatprocess, you're opening up the
porosity of the wood.
You're also converting by theaction, enzymatic action of
fungal growth on those staves.
You are taking very large,complicated wood structures like
(33:56):
cellulose and hemicellulose andbreaking them down into smaller
particles that are more easilyextractable.
The barrel companies actuallyrefer to the seasoning process
as deacidification becauseyou're volatilizing a lot of
tannic acid during that process.
A lot of the reason why youngwhiskey tastes not good is
(34:20):
because of the it's too tannicand so by aging the staves
longer before the barrels aremade you can outrun a little bit
or rid some of that tannic nowif you're going to let the
whiskey age for eight or tenyears then that's why most
Kentucky bourbon producers gointo a three to six month air
(34:40):
dried barrel but when we startedwilderness we knew that we were
going to wait till it was abottle in bond and we would have
whiskey that was eight tentwelve years old, but we wanted
it to taste as good as itpossibly could at that four to
five year mark as well.
And that's where the additionalseasoning and back to the TEDx
(35:00):
talk, that was kind of thepillars of what the talk was
about.
SPEAKER_02 (35:05):
Yeah, love it.
That's great.
Speaking of Cooperages, have youguys used the same Cooperage
this whole time?
SPEAKER_03 (35:13):
Well, when we started off, again, we're only
making like two barrels ofwhiskey a week, so we didn't
really get much clout with thebarrel producers.
You know, so we were usingwhoever the heck we could get
barrels from.
So if you look at some of ourold barrel picks, and I still
see them out there on theshelves, on our barrel picks,
single barrel cask strength, weactually list the Cooperage.
(35:36):
So some of those old barrels,you'll see Canton, you'll see
Segwine, you'll see Kelvin.
So we were getting barrelswherever we could get them from.
And that's kind of interestingabout some of our early
whiskeys.
Recently, we've almostexclusively gone with
Independent Stave Company, whichis, again, a Kentucky-based
(35:57):
company that is only 45 minutesfrom our distillery.
So, again, just trying to uselocal for sustainability.
We don't want to drive anyfurther than we have to or pay
any more shipping than we haveto to get barrels.
SPEAKER_00 (36:10):
Yeah, makes sense.
Yeah, most definitely.
So with your background inmicrobiology and plant
pathology, How do you seescience continuing to shape the
future of whiskey production?
SPEAKER_03 (36:23):
Well, you know, it's interesting seeing more people
into it.
You know, whenever I got intoit, I had people that I looked
to.
A guy named Mike Engledue wasout of, I think he was out of
University of Saskatchewan, andhe pioneered a lot of the work
with high-gravity fermentationsthat fuel ethanol distilleries
(36:46):
use.
There's a guy named DennisBayrock who works for Fibrochem.
He's kind of an to themicrobiology of it.
Everybody always talks about DonLivermore up at the...
What the heck is the name ofthat distillery up there?
It used to be...
(37:07):
It's up in Windsor, Canada.
But he's a PhD.
Everybody talks Dr.
Don.
You know, a lot of times whenpeople hear me, they're like,
oh, he reminds me of Dr.
Don.
Well, Don Livermore, he was init whenever I started in it.
So he was somebody that I lookedup to.
So, you know, just kind ofperpetuates.
(37:28):
And nowadays, you know, I'm init.
We've got other scientists whoare in it.
UNKNOWN (37:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:35):
And, you know, I see that continuing to I mean,
everybody's looking for thewhole basis of science is the
search for the truth.
So, you know, you have an ideaabout how flavors develop in
bourbon or whatever, but youreally got to put that to the
test.
You know what?
OK, I hear you saying the wordsout of your mouth, but where's
(37:55):
the proof behind it?
So I think, you know, and nowthat transparency is becoming a
big deal in bourbon production,I mean, that's half the reason
why we get the attention that weget is because we'll tell you
we'll teach you something youknow you rarely talk to the
wilderness trail people anddon't come away smarter than
whenever you engage with us tobegin with so that is our shtick
(38:17):
you know and I think people arecatching on golly that's really
working for those guys so maybeif we be more scientific we can
also garner some of that sameattention so hopefully it's a
movement
SPEAKER_00 (38:31):
yeah so that openness and stuff was that how
you came up with the idea ofyour wilderness trail lab
experience and how has that, andhow has your guests responded to
that?
SPEAKER_03 (38:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I mean, we're bourbonfans first and foremost, before
we ever had a distillery, we'rebourbon fanatics.
We love it.
We love podcasts.
We like going to barrel picks.
We love it, but we also knowwhat do we love about those
experiences?
It's the information that youget, the no bullshit information
that you get.
That's not just somebodytalking.
(39:04):
You know, there's a lot of thatgoing on in this industry.
And we really saw the need forit.
So we're filling a need with,you know, giving that
information.
But we're also given the factthat we've got will or firm
solutions rather, we're just ina position to have, I mean, The
other distilleries don't let youjust walk into their distillery.
(39:26):
You can't walk out of Maker'sMark and go right into Heaven
Hill and start checking outtheir equipment.
So we were in a very uniqueposition to have gone in and
studied all these distilleries,and they still let us in.
It's amazing.
But we've done a good job, Ithink, of assimilating that
information teaching thedistilleries that we're working
(39:49):
with, hey, here's what we found.
Here's how you can solve thisproblem for yourselves next
time.
You know, our business model isdetrimental to our business
because we're trying to makepeople smart enough to do what
we do for them.
But if you always do the rightthing, it always works out.
So that's kind of been our otherphilosophy.
(40:10):
So it is a little detrimental toour business model, but, you
know, it came back to us.
SPEAKER_02 (40:15):
Yeah, I thought that lab experience when we were out
there was a really cool aspectof it all and getting to see the
different tools that you guysuse and how deep the analysis
goes with each batch was reallyfun to see a little behind the
scenes action there.
So kudos to you guys for openingthat up.
It's really cool.
SPEAKER_03 (40:32):
Yeah, that's worked out really well for us.
We've got the lab experienceswhere people get to come in, put
lab coats on and go out andsample from the fermenters and
bring those samples back to thelaboratory and actually run
several of the tests that we runin a day's time.
And also explaining what are wedoing here?
We're checking the bricks.
Well, what the hell does thatmean?
(40:54):
That's the amount of sugarthat's in there.
Well, why do I care about howmuch sugar is in there?
Because the amount of sugarthat's in my mash is, Tells me
what is my alcohol by volumegoing to be at the end of the
fermenter.
So I know at the end offermentation, if I hit 8.7%
alcohol by volume, I got everybit of alcohol that I can
(41:14):
possibly get out of that batchversus if it was 6.5, I know I
left 2% of alcohol on the table.
So, that's the purpose of thelab test, and that's just
another level of thattransparency that we're trying
to offer as a guest experience,and so it's really working out
great.
SPEAKER_02 (41:33):
Yeah, super unique.
Pat, is that offered toeverybody that comes through, or
is that a special reservation onyour website, or is it one day a
week, one day a month, or how doyou handle that?
SPEAKER_03 (41:42):
You know, that's a great dadgum question, and I
wish I knew where I'll stop myhead.
I'm sure it's something on thewebsite that you sign up for.
That's my understanding of it.
I'm more in the creative phasethan the scheduling phase.
That's right.
I understand.
SPEAKER_02 (41:59):
Well, along those lines, I guess Wilderness Trail
was acquired by Campari.
Was it 2022, I believe?
Yeah.
Has that partnership for thebrand, has it– How are you
staying true to your originalvision when a large organization
like that takes over your baby?
And how do you stay hands-on anddriving the vision of it all
(42:22):
still?
SPEAKER_03 (42:23):
Yeah, so, you know, we...
aren't producing any morewhiskey now than we were back
then.
So we already had the capacity.
A lot of times when you do a bigdeal like that, it's because you
need the capital to get to thatnext level of production, which
we already had.
So we had already accomplishedthat.
It's really more aboutdistribution.
(42:43):
You know, how do we get into, wewere already in 44 states before
we did that deal.
And we were starting to get intoglobal territories.
And quite simply, we're lookingfor a partner that could get Get
us into those spots.
And also, you know, Campari iswell known to have their own
global distribution network.
And so that's exactly what thepartnership was about.
(43:06):
And that's what we've that'swhat we've done together, you
know, and that's that's what ourgoal has been.
SPEAKER_02 (43:13):
Love it.
What?
All right.
Brag a little bit.
How many are you in 50 statesnow and how many countries are
where do you where is it now?
SPEAKER_03 (43:20):
We're in 50 states, to my knowledge.
I'm pretty sure we're in all 50.
And then I know we're in ahandful of different countries,
but right off the top.
I mean, it's kind of like we'regetting ready.
We've already kind of gotfeelers out in all these
different spots and we're justgetting ready to feed the beast.
A lot of that, you know,especially in the corporate
(43:41):
world.
It's not just Shane and Idriving around in a car making
board decisions in two minutes.
It takes a little more timethese days.
Well,
SPEAKER_02 (43:51):
kudos to you, man.
That's incredibly impressive.
13 years ago, did you ever thinkyour whiskey was going to be
sold across the world?
SPEAKER_03 (43:58):
No.
I mean, we always had the dream.
I mean, to be honest with you,we just, you know, we either
knew we were going to be asuccessful distillery or we were
going to have unlimitedChristmas and birthday presents
for all of our friends andfamily for the rest of our
lives.
That's right.
I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (44:18):
All right, so we're getting close to the end here,
but we have, I guess, anotherkind of fun question, but it
also could be reflective.
So if you could go back and giveyourself one piece of advice
when you're starting WildernessTrail, what would it be and why?
SPEAKER_03 (44:37):
Well, you know, coming into having our own
distillery, With our backgroundin helping distilleries, we had
a heck of a big upper handcompared to a lot of people that
are doing that.
And so we had a lot ofconfidence.
When we were setting up our potstill, I remember one instance
that occurred.
(44:57):
Our pot is very interesting, isvery unique because we didn't
want to have a boiler togenerate steam.
So we wanted to heat it based onelectricity.
So basically it's a copper potthat sets down into a water bath
and that water bath is heatedwith electrodes.
So first thing we had to do isfill up that water jacket that's
(45:18):
around our pot and that wouldget subsequently heated so we
hook a hose up to that that partof our still we turn the water
on my brother actually mybrother mike heist he was our
head distiller at that time andhe hooked the hose up and got
the approval of the engineer onstaff which was shane hey man
you know i'm gonna get ready tofill this thing up he said hey
(45:40):
is the pressure relief device inoh yeah it's in there okay so
hook the hose up turn the hoseon Hour later, whatever, checked
the jacket, and it didn't haveany water in it.
It wasn't filling up.
It's like, what the hell's goingon here?
So we opened up the manway tothe still and realized the whole
(46:00):
bottom of our pot was crumpledup to the top.
We totally pressurized that.
So the pressure relief...
The pressure relief device wasjust a screw in there.
That had to be taken out and theactual pressure relief device
put in.
But we ruined our still beforewe ever ran it.
(46:22):
So if I could go back in timeand give myself one piece of
advice, it would be check thepressure relief valve on the
still, dude.
We've seen that cause problemsat other distilleries, too.
But that's something that youwant to look at.
Pressure relief is very
SPEAKER_02 (46:41):
important.
SPEAKER_03 (46:42):
Yeah.
Is it a Vendome still, I assume?
Oh, yeah, it was a Vendomestill, which is good news
because Louisville and Danvillearen't that far apart.
So we called Rob and Mike andtold them that we broke our
still before we ever ran it, andthey were like, what?
So they came and got it on aflatbed, took it back up to
Louisville, and actuallyfortified it a little more.
That actually probably needed tohappen because of how easy that
(47:05):
occurred.
So it ended up being a goodthing.
I bet you they could rob a micand tell all kinds of stories,
man.
I'm sure you're not the firstnor the last that's doing
something like that.
Yeah, they at one point in time,they probably gave away more
firm solutions business cardsthan we did because they're
constantly getting, hey, myfirm, my mash is doing this.
(47:26):
Like, it's got nothing to dowith this.
You know, let's call these guys.
SPEAKER_02 (47:31):
That's great, man.
Good story.
What's one of your favoritememories around a glass of
whiskey?
Is it with Shane?
Is it with maybe a familymember, with one of your other
buddies, sitting down there byyourself when you had a life
revelation?
What you got?
SPEAKER_03 (47:46):
Man, that's a good question.
I've had so many great times,you know, sitting around
whiskey.
I mean, you know, in general,just chilling out with friends.
And, you know, I mean, there'sbeen times of, It's really hard
to say.
That's a tough question.
One of the most, I will say arecent time that I pulled out
(48:08):
some damn good whiskey.
I had some buddies that were infrom the British Bourbon
Society.
Recently visited the distillery,a couple of the members who I've
been communicating with for awhile.
Shane and I actually went toEngland.
Gosh, whenever our whiskeysfirst came out, the British
Bourbon Society actually did thefirst barrel pick ever of
(48:28):
Wilderness Trail.
So I got an interestinggeography lesson over in
England.
Me and Shane were in London, andso we called these guys up.
We're like, hey, man, we're inEngland.
We'll just come see you guys.
And they're like, oh, hell yeah,man, let's come see us.
So...
we finally got around to askingthe question, where are you guys
anyway?
And they're like, Oh, we're inManchester, which is total
(48:53):
spectrum is.
So three hour train ride, we endup with, instead of getting
lynched by, uh, 200 angryBritish bourbon people from us
canceling, we jumped on a train,went all the way up to, um,
Manchester had exactly two hoursto be with those guys.
Had a blast.
(49:13):
Jumped back on the same train,made it back to London just in
time to get our plane out ofthere.
But we've always kept a kinshipwith those guys, and a couple of
them showed up to the distilleryrecently.
And I had the fortune of comingup on some cool old whiskey.
A guy called me up, a friend ofmine from the University of
Kentucky.
He's like, do you know anybodythat wants any old whiskey?
(49:35):
I'm like, yeah, me.
He's like, what do you got?
I don't know.
Just come look at it.
And all my way over there, I'mjust dreaming what it could be.
And it's Old Fitzgerald, RebelYell, Weller from 1970s that was
distilled in the 60s.
So I got a bunch of bottles ofthis stuff, and I broke out one
(49:55):
of the Old Fitzgeralds for mybuddies at the British Bourbon
Society.
That's cool.
And we just had a– it was such a– I mean, it was so delicious,
first of all.
I was just blown away.
It was distilled probably around62 and bottled in 74 and just
delicious.
And that's just what it's allabout, you know, saving a good
(50:18):
bottle for a time.
And it meant so much to thoseguys and, just a great
experience.
That's what it's all about.
SPEAKER_02 (50:24):
That's really cool.
I'll tell you a great, a greatexperience.
Sorry, Joe, I got, I got toshare this one experience when
we had, when we were out there amonth or so ago and we sit down
to dinner and it's, it's Dr.
Pat and Joe and I, and a coupleof other guys that, that were on
the, on the trip and we get thecocktail menu.
And sure enough, there's,there's the, what is it?
The Dr.
Pat Heiss cocktail.
(50:47):
We got the Dr.
Pat Heiss cocktail with Dr.
Pat with us.
And I think we all started offthe evening.
with one of those.
That was a lot of fun.
That was an interesting drink,too.
They don't have
SPEAKER_03 (50:56):
coconut in it or something.
SPEAKER_02 (50:58):
They did great with it.
They sure did.
Is that the first cocktailyou've ever had named after you?
I think so.
Yep.
To your knowledge, love it.
SPEAKER_03 (51:08):
Yep.
I had other things named afterme.
It was a good cocktail.
SPEAKER_00 (51:14):
Good cocktail, great dinner, and great conversation.
Before we start off, Dr.
Pat, where can people findWilderness Trail products and
how can they get in contact withyou or your other business
solutions?
SPEAKER_03 (51:32):
Well, I mean, hopefully all you got to do is
go to your local liquor store tofind Wilderness Trail.
We're doing as good of a job aswe can to get it out there.
Definitely call out the name andask people for it if you see it
or don't see it either way.
And, you know, our distillery islocated in Danville, Kentucky.
We're on the Kentucky BourbonTrail, Heritage Trail.
(51:55):
So, you know, anybody visitingthe state, I highly encourage
you to come by and visit us atthe distillery.
Check out our products.
We're on all the major socialmedia networks.
I'm sure if you put Pat Heist'scell phone into a Google search
in my cell phone number, it'llprobably come up along with all
my other contact information.
So if anybody has heard anythingthat they are interested in and
(52:18):
wants to follow up, I'm not ahard guy to get a hold of.
SPEAKER_02 (52:23):
And I'll reiterate the fact that if you're on the
bourbon trail out there, makesure you're stopping by
Wilderness Trail.
It is quite the experience andsomething not to pass up.
SPEAKER_00 (52:31):
Yes, most definitely.
All right, Dr.
Rhett, well, thank you for yourtime.
It's the end of our show.
And remember, a bourbon withfriends can change the world.
Good night.
Cheers, guys.
Cheers.
Thank you, Pat.
Appreciate it, sir.
Oh, yeah.
Thank you, guys.
SPEAKER_01 (52:46):
Thanks for listening.
It's time for Bourbon with Friends, the
bourbon podcast that never takesitself too seriously.
Pull up a chair, grab a glassand remember, a bourbon with
friends can change the world.
Here we go.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Hey everybody, welcome to Bourbon Friends.
This is Joe, the editor, and wehave Ryan Thompson here from
Tenth Mountain Whiskey andSpirit Company.
He's our proud sponsor of thispodcast and he will be joining
for this interview today.
So Ryan, why don't you give ourlisteners a little bit of
background about yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (00:48):
Hey, thanks, Joe.
I appreciate it and appreciatebeing here with everyone from
Bourbon with Friends.
It's a special day for me withthe interview we have going on.
But I've been a fan of the showfrom behind the scenes for a
long time now.
When Brian and company took itover about a year, a year and a
half ago, Brian and I are closefriends and we got to talking
about it.
And so I thought it wassomething that I should probably
(01:10):
sponsor from a businessperspective, just because of all
the passion and excitementaround the industry and around
Bourbon with Friends.
And so happy to be on this sideof the table to be on the
interviewing side and have aspecial guest today with Dr.
Pat Heist from Wilderness Trail.
And so I couldn't be moreexcited.
It's quite an honor for me tointerview one of my mentors over
(01:32):
the last 10 years and somebodyI've looked up to in the
business.
So I'm excited to be here andexcited to pick Pat's brain a
little bit about what's going onwith Wilderness
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Trail.
Yes, most definitely.
And here we have Mr.
Pat Heist from Wilderness Trail.
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
All right, guys.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Good morning, sir.
SPEAKER_03 (01:48):
Hey, Dr.
Pat.
Welcome, sir.
Yeah, great to be here.
Thanks for the flatteringintroduction.
SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
Hey, man, we're just getting started.
I'm going to try to make youblush here right now.
So let's see how good of a job Ican do because I want to give
you an introduction.
But before I get into that, Iwant to certainly give a shout
out and a thank you to theCampari Group, to the Wilderness
Trail Distillery, to Pat Heissfor hosting Joe and I and a
couple other folks from a mediaperspective at the distillery a
couple of weeks ago.
(02:15):
It was an incredible trip, anincredible experience.
Got to taste, obviously, someamazing whiskeys and got to hang
out with Dr.
Pat for a couple of days and Sojust a big shout out and a big
thank you to the whole groupthere.
Pat, you have a couple of yearsunder your belt here now, man.
You're a wise fellow is what Ilike to say, man.
You were born and raised inKentucky.
(02:37):
You got a BS, an MS, and a PhD,all from the University of
Kentucky.
Not a lot of people can saythat.
So Dr.
Pat is one of the smartestfellows in the industry.
So kudos to him on that.
You served as a professor ofmedical micropathology at the
Kentucky College of OsteopathicMedicine.
So there's that, right?
(02:59):
That sounds incredibly cool.
In 2006, you founded FirmSolutions with business partner
Shane Baker.
I'm sure Shane will come up on atime or two during this
conversation For everyone thatdoes not know what Firm Solution
is, it's a consultancy andsupplier specializing in yeast
strains, enzymes,antimicrobials, and fermentation
support for distilleries,wineries, breweries, and the
(03:21):
fuel industry worldwide.
Basically, anybody that makesethanol, you work with is what
it sounds like.
Uh, in 2013, you and Shanedecided to start your own
distillery wilderness trail inDanville, Kentucky, make it a
Danville's first legaldistillery since prohibition,
which, which is always a nicefeather in somebody's cap.
Uh, you started with pot stillbatches and then, uh, expanded
(03:42):
soon thereafter in 2016 withcolumn stills.
Uh, and then, uh, got tosubsequent subsequent growth
from that, uh, ultimatelybecoming one of the top bourbon
producers, uh, not onlyKentucky, but, uh, worldwide,
which is, uh, incrediblyimpressive.
Uh, You got a lot ofrecognition.
Wilderness Trail was honored asKentucky's manufacturer of the
year in 2016.
(04:04):
You and Baker were named EYEntrepreneurs of the Year in
2020.
which is damn cool.
Uh, the distillery became the18th official stop on the
Kentucky bourbon trail in 2020.
So while everyone's dealing withCOVID here, you are just out
there kicking ass still.
Uh, and then October, 2022Campari group acquired, uh, what
is it?
70% stake, I believe, uh, tohelp aid in the further
(04:25):
expansion.
And we'll probably get in someof those details as well.
Uh, and one fun fact foreverybody is that, uh, Dr.
Heist, uh, has a TEDx talk outthere.
So you got to go check that outtoo.
So, uh, uh, Did I do all right,Dr.
Pat?
Did I miss anything in yourlongest season?
Oh, yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (04:41):
no.
SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
No, that was pretty thorough there.
I don't know what else I got tooffer now after that.
Well, to put a bow on it, he wasout blue crab fishing this
morning, so how about that?
SPEAKER_03 (04:53):
That's right.
I'm no good at that, so I'mworking on that accolade,
building it up a little bit.
I also do play in a rock bandcalled Zella Mae, so if anyone
gets on Spotify, check it out.
There you go.
Say the name again.
It's called Zella, Z-E-L-L-A,May, M-A-Y, and put an
exclamation point after it.
(05:14):
For some reason, I think mydrummer put an exclamation
point, so that's the only wayyou find it.
SPEAKER_02 (05:19):
So if your whiskey career doesn't go in the right
direction, you can always fallback on your rock career.
Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_03 (05:25):
That's right.
If the listeners would just givethat a listen, I think five
views would double our total.
SPEAKER_02 (05:33):
I love it, man.
I guess one more thing is thatyou are a pinball aficionado as
well.
I know that about you.
Pinball?
Yeah.
Oh,
SPEAKER_03 (05:41):
yeah, I play it.
SPEAKER_02 (05:43):
I've seen you been playing it late at the bars one
night, so we'll save that foranother time.
Yeah, go ahead, Joe.
I was
SPEAKER_00 (05:51):
going to say, so, Pat, can you, you know, like,
again, thank you for yourhospitality when you invited us
out there.
We both had a great time.
You're amazing.
Your facility is awesome.
Can you give us maybe a rundown?
I mean, we've been there.
We've seen it.
But maybe give us a rundown forour listeners on your acreage,
number of rack houses, yourstills.
Just give us a little breakdownof your distillery and what your
(06:14):
production is maybe per day, perweek, or whatever.
SPEAKER_03 (06:16):
Yeah.
So I'll preface where we're attoday with where we were at 13
years ago for a littleencouragement for anyone looking
to start a business is we wereonly making one barrel a day on
a 200 gallon pot still 13.
years ago.
That's how we started thedistillery.
Today, we, and that was actuallyin the back room of our firm
(06:40):
solutions business.
Today, we're on 165 acre campus,have about 300,000 barrels
stored across 17, 24,000 barrelrickhouses.
And we have our still, we haveour 200 gallon pot still, but in
addition, we've got a 16 inchdiameter.
That's how you are 18 inchdiameter, right?
(07:02):
Whether you refer to columnstills by their diameter,
they're actually 43, 44 feethigh.
But an 18-inch diameter columnand a 36-inch diameter column
together, those are capable ofproducing 220 barrels of bourbon
a day at our facility.
So that's kind of where we're atnow, 165-acre campus.
(07:27):
And I think we get around...
tens of thousands of visitors ayear on the Kentucky Bourbon
Trail.
So it's really blossomed into aheck of a business and a heck of
a brand over the last 13 shortyears.
That's
SPEAKER_00 (07:42):
awesome.
Yeah, actually, well, both Brianand a couple of other hosts, we
actually have a close friendwho's actually in Kentucky right
now doing the trail.
They actually own property, Ithink somewhere outside of
Lexington.
And they've been I know everyyear they go and they're going
to, they'll probably visit you.
And of course, some of yourother friends and or
competitors, depending how youwant to see how you want to say
(08:03):
it.
Yeah.
Uh, so, uh, so Shane, uh, I'msorry, Pat, you and Shane
started a firm solutions beforelaunching on this trail.
Was there any moment that youknew it was time to start or
what was there a moment when youknew it was time from going,
helping others to making yourown stuff?
UNKNOWN (08:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:25):
I mean, you know, we thought about it a lot.
You know, we're here inKentucky, so it's always in our
faces.
We had a company, you know, thatwas marketing fermentation
products to a lot of the bigbourbon distilleries, you know,
but over the course of theseveral years that we were
running Firm Solutions, leadingup to starting Wilderness Trail,
(08:47):
I mean, our day-to-day jobs wereto basically get customers that
are going to buy yeast and otherproducts to But second of all,
to keep that business, you know,if the fermenter is not bubbling
right, the yeast provider is thefirst one to get the phone call
of, hey, man, something's notgoing right here.
In fact, your yeast isn'tworking.
So, you know, you got to kind ofstart there and figure out
(09:10):
what's the real problem.
So our day to day jobs weregoing into distilleries and
breweries and trying to figureout what was the real problem.
It's probably not the yeast.
Is it the temperature?
Is it the pH?
Are you properly convertingstarch into ferment?
Yeah, absolutely.
(09:55):
kind of dawned on us that weprobably know more about
distilleries than anybody elsein the world.
So why don't we start our owndistillery?
So, you know, just at some pointin time.
And the other thing is we've gota couple other reasons besides
just having the knowledge tostart the distillery.
We've got history, you know,we're both born and raised in
Kentucky.
(10:15):
My family's got a little bit ofa, you can't really be
multi-generational in Kentuckyand not have some tie to the
whiskey business.
My great grandfather used towork for Seagram's Shane's
family.
has a very robust history indistilling.
His grandmother worked at theKentucky River Distillery, which
is where Wild Turkey owns thebear warehouses there at Camp
(10:37):
Nelson.
She actually retired from theStitzweller Distillery and met
her husband, Shane's grandfatherthere.
So deep distilling roots.
So we've always kind of had itin our blood of, you know, let's
start a distillery.
It's just a cool thing to do.
We're some of the hugest whiskeyfans on the kind of dream of,
(10:58):
golly, wouldn't it be cool tohave our own distillery?
But you got to have theknowledge, which we got through
Firm Solutions, and you got tohave capital, which we also got
through Firm Solutions.
And that led up to realizing thedream and starting the
distillery.
But definitely that familyhistory played into it, as well
(11:20):
as our experiences withWilderness Trail, or Firm
Solutions, rather.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
Dr.
Pat, you started with that potstill and then moved on to a
couple other stills.
You mentioned that 18-inchdiameter column still as well.
But when you just had the potstill and you're on 165 acres
now, what did you guysoriginally start out with
size-wise?
I think, didn't you mention whenwe were out there, something
like 13 acres and something, youdidn't really have a thought
(11:46):
that it was going to expand intosomething this big.
Is that correct?
SPEAKER_03 (11:49):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, our original size was...
whatever the back closet in theback room of Firm Solutions.
SPEAKER_00 (11:56):
That's right.
SPEAKER_03 (11:57):
And the production part of it is one consideration.
The equipment, where's thatequipment going to go?
You're producing a flammableliquid.
What are the hazard concerns andall that?
But the bigger concern is whereare you going to store those
barrels?
So we had...
probably 200 barrels stacked upin the back of our firm
(12:21):
solutions building.
And, and, you know, basically wehad to build storage for that.
So that was kind of the exodusof the back room of the firm
solutions building to actuallypurchasing the property that
we're on now that we built asmall barrel warehouse.
And that was, you know, thatsolved that problem.
And so we didn't just start offon this farm.
(12:43):
We, we start off in the back ofour other business, you know, we
built a group, strapping thisthing in the beginning.
SPEAKER_02 (12:49):
Yeah, that's great, man.
I love that.
While you were scaling it up tothe size it is now, what were
some of the biggest challengesin growing this deal?
SPEAKER_03 (13:01):
Well, I think that for us, a lot of the challenges
were really around just thecapital and things, which we
were able to navigate aroundbecause Shane's a great business
guy.
We're kind of we both have aknack for identifying
(13:21):
opportunities.
And, you know, one thing inaddition to us having a dream of
creating a great brand, theopportunity came for contract
production.
So kind of in the middle of a,we're building a new steel and
we're going to increase ourproduction.
We also had severalopportunities that were
presented of making barrels forother brands.
(13:43):
And so that, factored into howwe expanded.
I mean, we didn't need to have adistillery that makes 220
barrels a day for our own usage.
At least we didn't initially,but we knew that we could use
that additional capacity to helpgenerate capital to, you know,
fund the business.
And so that's what we did.
(14:04):
Nowadays, you know, so westarted off this much capacity.
Well, we only need this much ofit.
So we got this much to makecontract.
And then little by little overthe years, as our brand has
grown, we've taken over more andmore of that capacity.
We still do a little bit ofcontract production, but we're
majority of production for ourown brand.
SPEAKER_02 (14:24):
What do you think it's 9, 90, 10 at this point or
80,
SPEAKER_03 (14:27):
20?
Uh, it's hard to say, you know,I don't know exactly where it
fluctuates also.
I mean, we, we may not even bemaking anything right this
second because it's summertimeand I know we've got a shutdown
plan.
So you just never know.
SPEAKER_02 (14:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
Right.
Yep.
So
SPEAKER_00 (14:45):
I remember
SPEAKER_02 (14:46):
Joe,
SPEAKER_00 (14:47):
I was going to say, I remember during the tour,
you're mentioning how you alsostarted doing some barrel, uh,
warehousing as well, other thancontract distilling.
Are you still doing that or has,has your use been, you know,
with your production has takenthat over?
SPEAKER_03 (15:02):
Well, you know, when we built our first barrel
warehouse, we were also aware ofother craft distilleries having
the same storage issues that wewere having.
So we built our warehouse alittle larger to accommodate
some of it.
And that was, you know, part ofour entrepreneurial.
Hey, man, we can rent out spacein our barrel warehouse, make a
few extra bucks.
(15:22):
But when you produce contractwhiskey, almost always those
customers don't have a place forthem.
So if you're going to producewhiskey for someone, you better
have the storage.
Otherwise you're not going to beable to get the deals.
So that was something that wejust had to bake into there.
So we had the advantage of therevenue coming from the contract
production, but then alsoresidual revenue from storage of
(15:46):
those barrels over time.
That's a big part of ourbusiness.
SPEAKER_02 (15:52):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
absolutely.
So let's, let's, let's get moreinto your distilling process and
let's, and how you talked to usabout how Wilderness Trail uses
a sweet mash process instead ofthe common sour mash process.
Can you walk us through thatdecision and what made it a
difference in the final product?
SPEAKER_03 (16:14):
Yeah, and I can actually point out a couple
pretty substantial differencesin our process.
You know, the sweet mashprocess, that's something that
obviously, you know, mostKentucky bourbon producers are,
sour mash producers.
And that is where when you'remaking the mash, you're mixing
the milled grain flour with hotwater and back set.
(16:39):
Back set is the liquid left overfrom a previous distillation.
So you're going to add in,displace about 20 to 30% of that
water with back set.
That's how you do a sour mash.
It's called sour mash because itactually tastes sour.
It acidifies the mash.
Sweet mash, quite simply, iswe're just mixing all of our
(17:02):
grains in with fresh water eachand every time.
When we started our distillery,we had an excellent opportunity
to create something fromscratch.
And again, we're using commonsense to start with.
You know, we're not far off inthe outer space with any of our
ideas, but we wanted to createclassic quality whiskey very
(17:24):
consistently and at a very highlevel in terms of you know
sustainability the amount ofmoney that it costs to make it
always respecting the fact wewant to make the best bottle of
whiskey possible so the wholesweet mash thing was partially
To do a sweet mash, again,you're not acidifying the mash
(17:47):
in the beginning, so you're moresusceptible to microbial
contamination.
So we were showcasing, hey,we're microbiologists.
We're the company that otherdistilleries call when they have
contamination issues.
So we're just going to deal withthose because we know we
understand that part of theprocess.
We just exclude or...
(18:09):
do other things to avoid thebacteria from being a problem
rather than relying onacidification of the mash to do
that.
Because consistency is somethingthat we look at as an, I mean,
we want to make the same whiskeytoday as we did yesterday and
the same this year as we do nextyear and so on and so forth.
(18:29):
So having that consistency isvery important when we look at
the ingredients, the water thatwe're using, the grains that
we're using, the yeast strainthat we're using, All those
things are, you're able to keepthose very consistent.
Well, we start getting intothings like back set.
Now, if I'm adding 20 to 30% ofmy water is back set, every
batch is different.
(18:50):
So the back set from every batchis going to be different.
If I'm aiming for consistency,then I want to use fresh water
each time instead of back set,you know?
So that's kind of one thing thatwe, one of the rationale behind
going into a sweet mash isAnother thing is that we started
(19:11):
off as a very small operation.
We weren't operating 24-7.
Part of the mentality of using asire mash is if I'm
incorporating that material leftover from a previous batch
that's coming off the stillbefore it gets added into my
mash, that stuff's hot and I'mtrying to heat up my mash so I
(19:31):
get to recover that heat.
Not if you're running adistillery on one shift a day.
So next day when we come in,that still isn't even hot.
So we weren't getting thatadvantage.
Just for many reasons, we wantedto go with a sweet mash.
And the other thing is being thenew guys on the block, you know,
how can we differentiateourselves?
(19:51):
I mean, that's Sire Mash, SireMash, Sire Mash.
We got nothing against it.
We got half of my whiskey in mycollection is Sire Mash.
But just how do we differentiateourselves in this situation?
you know, pretty crowded market.
And that's just one way that wedid it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:07):
Yeah.
Well, thank you for that.
That's, that's a greatexplanation.
So, so you said that yeast isone of the most, at least
unappreciated elements.
I mean, I mean that you neverhear anyone talk about yeast
when you go to a distillery oryou talk to other, other
(20:29):
distillers.
Like we've done like 50 or 60episodes and I don't think
hardly any of them havementioned their yeast strains or
anything like that.
So can you explain how yeast andhow the different strains can
produce or change the flavorprofile?
SPEAKER_03 (20:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think first of all,going back to the observation
of, you know, why don't morepeople talk about it?
I think it's not easy.
as understood as it should be.
You know, the other thing, youknow, people that make
Coca-Cola, they don't talk abouthigh fructose corn syrup all day
either, but it's one of theingredients.
It's just like, hey, we add itand it's just, I'm sure it makes
(21:07):
a difference of where you get itand the quality and all that.
But it's just kind of one ofthose things where you can
reliably get it and you add itand it works, you know?
So there's not a lot of, I thinkthere's also a little bit of
secrecy.
So people don't talk about itbecause people don't want you to
know what yeast strain they'reusing.
You know, Wilderness Trail isvery different because we have
(21:28):
are founded out of thebeginnings of our fermentation
company.
And we're very open with ourmethodologies, with our yeast
strains.
And so, you know, we'll tell youwhat yeast strain we used.
You can see it on the side ofour barrel strength offerings.
And if you want to get that sameyeast strain, you just go on and
order it.
It's not that big of a deal interms of sharing that, you know.
(21:53):
It's a big deal in terms of howwe use those strains.
And we use about...
we rotate between about ninedifferent yeast strains for our
whiskey production.
And those are the same strainsthat we market to other
distilleries.
Now, how you use those strainsis, you know, we might use a
combination of yeast in onebatch versus the next.
So there's ways that I can takethe same yeast that everybody
(22:15):
else has and I can use itdifferently than they're using
it.
So it makes it my own.
So there's different ways torear the, am I just dumping the
yeast straight out of the baginto the fermenter or am I
propagating it first?
Am I adding any additionalnutrients that are going to
fortify or boost the activity ofthat yeast strain?
(22:36):
Anytime we're, you know, we'retalking mainly about whiskey
today, but we sell yeast towhiskey producers and just in
whiskey, there's scotch, Irishwhiskey, bourbons, American
single malt, rye whiskeys, a lotof different options there.
So we're going to use differentstrains based on what your goals
are there.
(22:57):
If you're making fuel ethanol,which you don't care about
flavor, you want as much alcoholas possible, you'll use a strain
that's more for that.
If you're making beer you mighthave a restriction on the
fermentation temperature like ifi'm making a lager for example
those are typically fermentedbetween 35 and 55 degrees
(23:19):
fahrenheit so i'm going to use ayeast strain that can withstand
that low temperature so a lot oftimes we're choosing yeast
strains based on what we'remaking and what type of process
is used in the definition ofwhat we're making.
And then over and above that, Imean, we're not playing around
(23:41):
trying to be creative.
Here, try this different strain.
We've never used this onebefore.
We've got data on all thesestrains.
If it's on our website, and thesame with other yeast suppliers,
and this is kind of wheredistilleries of today, you worry
about other things besides theyeast and let the yeast
providers worry about that part.
That's kind of why a lot ofpeople, it's out of sight, out
(24:03):
of mind, because they just, Iget that, and I don't worry
about that.
I know it's going to be good,and then you come up with, I
mean, there's so many reasonswhy you would get this flavor or
that flavor that's differentfrom the yeast.
I mean, there's evencontaminating organisms that
could make their way into yourfermenter.
So when people start mincing andslicing and dicing all the
(24:25):
different flavor characteristicsof whiskey and There's a lot of
times, oh, that's the yeast orthat's the barrel, when really
it's like you're just sayingthat.
I mean, there are definitelychemicals that are pinpointed
directly to the yeast or thebarrel, but a lot of times when
we're just hanging aroundtasting things, there's a lot of
just spitballing and cooler talkthat goes on in this industry
(24:49):
where people are just sayingstuff without really
substantiating it.
SPEAKER_02 (24:55):
Yeah, Pat, along those lines as well, speaking of
yeast and fermentation, if Iremember correctly, your
fermentation tanks are 2,000 to10,000 or are they up to 20,000
gallons at the shop there?
SPEAKER_03 (25:09):
Yeah, so we started with 400 or 500-gallon
fermenters.
We went to 4,000-gallonfermenters, and then now we're
up to 20,000-gallon fermenters.
So we've gone, experienceddifferent sizes of fermenters,
and we've been able to keep ourdistillate.
And same with stills.
We've gone from a pot still totwo different column stills, and
(25:31):
we're able to keep veryconsistent distillate.
SPEAKER_02 (25:34):
And no matter the size, are you fermenting for two
days?
SPEAKER_03 (25:42):
No, we're actually fermenting for three days on our
18-inch column side.
And that's just the way we runthe distillery.
So on the large side, which washistorically a lot of our
contract production, we werecutting those fermenters in as
little as two days.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (26:00):
right.
So it's just a different...
I mean, we might lose a littlebit of alcohol production in one
we're cutting, but...
There's yield, the number ofproof gallons of alcohol you
make per bushel of grain, andthere's production.
That's just total number ofbarrels I'm making in a day.
So if I got hot and heavycontract production coming in
(26:20):
and I want to make as manybarrels as I possibly can,
Rather than focusing on myyield, you know, the yield is
going to basically get you morevalue per bushel of grain.
The barrels, how many barrelsyou make is going to really
where your total cash flowcoming in.
Your cost of goods is going tobe a little affected whenever
your yield is not good.
(26:42):
But you're still that's justkind of two things that we.
toggle between is alcohol yieldsand alcohol production so we
might lose a little bit one dayon yield to make up for it on a
few extra barrels
SPEAKER_02 (26:57):
right so that
SPEAKER_03 (26:58):
would be kind of getting back to the two day
versus three day fermentations
SPEAKER_02 (27:02):
yeah makes sense absolutely You guys at
Wilderness Trail there havethree different types of
whiskeys and then maybe somebarrel proofs every now and
again as well, it sounds like.
Why did you choose those threein particular to lead with your
brand?
SPEAKER_03 (27:18):
Well, we started with a weeded bourbon and that
was really our, you got your owndistillery, you want to make
stuff like you want it.
So we are big fans of weededbourbons and that's what we
wanted to start with.
The other thing is we knew wewanted to do as much business in
Kentucky as possible.
We're a Kentucky proudoperation.
And, you know, wheat was readilyavailable in Kentucky.
(27:41):
So we actually waited an extrayear to produce rye whiskey or
high rye bourbon because it tooka year to get it.
SPEAKER_00 (27:49):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, let's change this up abit.
I'm talking a little bit ofnerdy stuff.
And let's go with a little funquestion we like doing here on
Bourbon with Friends.
All right, Pat.
So.
Let's say you had to assemble adistilling dream team, but the
characters or those dream teamhad to be from a movie or TV
(28:11):
show, and they had to embodyscience, artistry, and, of
course, your rock and rollbackground.
Can you think of some charactersin a TV or movie show that would
do that?
SPEAKER_03 (28:24):
Let's see here.
That's well, I think I wouldwant the professor off
Gilligan's Island because hecomes up with all these great
ideas.
I mean, remember the episodewhenever they had all the
radioactive seeds and he madethem eat soap to like overcome
all their symptoms.
I mean, that's genius, you know,so I definitely want him on
there.
(28:45):
I think MacGyver, you know, Ialways refer to Shane as
MacGyver, but if I couldn't haveShane on my team and I got to
pick somebody off a TV show,it'd probably be MacGyver just
for what he can create on the TVshow.
Hopefully that would translateinto my, my new world.
And then golly, that's that's Iknow my list would go beyond
(29:11):
there, but those are two thatcome to mind immediately.
Or how about someone in the rockand roll world?
Who would you
SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
want on your team?
SPEAKER_03 (29:17):
Dang, man, that would be, well, a lot of the
ones I'd want on there dead.
So that puts a little damper init, but if I could bring
somebody back, you know, I mean,golly, you know, I probably want
David Lee Roth as my brandambassador and, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (29:38):
Awesome.
Awesome.
Well, thank you.
Yeah.
Like I said, we like to break upthe, not the monotony, but kind
of the nerdiness and, and, andthe flow of the podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (29:49):
Well, if it's called Heavy Metal with Friends, we'd
be talking for three or fourhours.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
Well, that's a good thing that Martin's not on the
show tonight because he is ametalhead.
And we get on some livessometimes on Instagram and they
talk metal for hours.
That's
SPEAKER_02 (30:04):
what
SPEAKER_00 (30:05):
we do.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:06):
Dr.
Pat, you did a TEDx talk, and itwas on the climate change
impacting bourbon.
How do you see that going downover the next few decades?
I'd love to get your viewpointon that.
SPEAKER_03 (30:19):
Yeah, climate change, you know, that's always
important because, you know,starting with the trees growing
in the woods, which is where weget the barrels from, you know,
some of the trees that we getbarrels from are 100 years old.
So the climate changes.
It definitely affects how thosetrees mature and the quality of
the wood.
(30:40):
Same with the grains growing inthe field.
You know, the climate from oneyear to the next affects yields
of grain out of the field interms of bushels per acre.
The distilleries are pretty wellkind of climate controlled and
all that kind of stuff, youknow.
You can make, given the fact wecan make bourbon anywhere in the
(31:02):
United States, and I've visiteddistilleries all over in almost
every state, and you can make asimilar distillate no matter
where you're at, I believe.
Because there are some thingslike barometric pressure and
things that are going to be alittle different from one place
to the next.
But if you get, I mean, you canship grains from anywhere.
(31:24):
We tend to use local grains.
But given the fact you can shipgrains around, conceivably, you
can make similar distillate nomatter where you are in the
United States if you got theright climate control in your
operation.
But the whole...
Aging in the barrel warehouse,that's a whole nother part of
the process, you know, andthat's where we've got
(31:46):
evaporative loss that'soccurring.
I mean, you put barrels in SouthTexas barrels.
or out in nevada and if youdon't have some type of humidity
control there's not going to bea drop of anything left in those
barrels after two or three yearsso we've got to consider
evaporative loss and as it getsdrier and less humid we're going
(32:07):
to lose more whiskey thatconcentrates the whiskey down in
there it has a lot to do withflavor the cool and the hot
cycles are what facilitate theexpansion and contraction of the
whiskey in and out of the woodthat is responsible for
extracting a lot of those woodchemicals.
(32:28):
And then lastly, you havechemical reactions that are
occurring over time that thatwill govern what esters are
going to be produced and whattypes of chemicals are going to
be produced, what complexityyou're going to get in that
barrel.
And then lastly, if you considerthe aging process or the
(32:52):
maturing process of the wooditself, the seasoning of the
wood, prior to construction ofthe barrel.
So you cut the trees, you makethe staves.
The barrel producers actuallywill let those staves season out
in the field, out in the yardthere for up to two years.
Our barrels are 18 to 24 monthair dried.
(33:13):
So they're seasoned for 18 to 24months.
You let that wood set outside,gets exposed to the rain, the
hot, the cold, et cetera, etcetera, you let that wood sit
there for 10 years and you'dhave a pile of sawdust sitting
there.
But over the course of sixmonths, a year, two years, you
start that degradation processwhich is eventually going to
(33:36):
result in disintegration of thatstave.
But just the beginnings of thatprocess, you're opening up the
porosity of the wood.
You're also converting by theaction, enzymatic action of
fungal growth on those staves.
You are taking very large,complicated wood structures like
(33:56):
cellulose and hemicellulose andbreaking them down into smaller
particles that are more easilyextractable.
The barrel companies actuallyrefer to the seasoning process
as deacidification becauseyou're volatilizing a lot of
tannic acid during that process.
A lot of the reason why youngwhiskey tastes not good is
(34:20):
because of the it's too tannicand so by aging the staves
longer before the barrels aremade you can outrun a little bit
or rid some of that tannic nowif you're going to let the
whiskey age for eight or tenyears then that's why most
Kentucky bourbon producers gointo a three to six month air
(34:40):
dried barrel but when we startedwilderness we knew that we were
going to wait till it was abottle in bond and we would have
whiskey that was eight tentwelve years old, but we wanted
it to taste as good as itpossibly could at that four to
five year mark as well.
And that's where the additionalseasoning and back to the TEDx
(35:00):
talk, that was kind of thepillars of what the talk was
about.
SPEAKER_02 (35:05):
Yeah, love it.
That's great.
Speaking of Cooperages, have youguys used the same Cooperage
this whole time?
SPEAKER_03 (35:13):
Well, when we started off, again, we're only
making like two barrels ofwhiskey a week, so we didn't
really get much clout with thebarrel producers.
You know, so we were usingwhoever the heck we could get
barrels from.
So if you look at some of ourold barrel picks, and I still
see them out there on theshelves, on our barrel picks,
single barrel cask strength, weactually list the Cooperage.
(35:36):
So some of those old barrels,you'll see Canton, you'll see
Segwine, you'll see Kelvin.
So we were getting barrelswherever we could get them from.
And that's kind of interestingabout some of our early
whiskeys.
Recently, we've almostexclusively gone with
Independent Stave Company, whichis, again, a Kentucky-based
(35:57):
company that is only 45 minutesfrom our distillery.
So, again, just trying to uselocal for sustainability.
We don't want to drive anyfurther than we have to or pay
any more shipping than we haveto to get barrels.
SPEAKER_00 (36:10):
Yeah, makes sense.
Yeah, most definitely.
So with your background inmicrobiology and plant
pathology, How do you seescience continuing to shape the
future of whiskey production?
SPEAKER_03 (36:23):
Well, you know, it's interesting seeing more people
into it.
You know, whenever I got intoit, I had people that I looked
to.
A guy named Mike Engledue wasout of, I think he was out of
University of Saskatchewan, andhe pioneered a lot of the work
with high-gravity fermentationsthat fuel ethanol distilleries
(36:46):
use.
There's a guy named DennisBayrock who works for Fibrochem.
He's kind of an to themicrobiology of it.
Everybody always talks about DonLivermore up at the...
What the heck is the name ofthat distillery up there?
It used to be...
(37:07):
It's up in Windsor, Canada.
But he's a PhD.
Everybody talks Dr.
Don.
You know, a lot of times whenpeople hear me, they're like,
oh, he reminds me of Dr.
Don.
Well, Don Livermore, he was init whenever I started in it.
So he was somebody that I lookedup to.
So, you know, just kind ofperpetuates.
(37:28):
And nowadays, you know, I'm init.
We've got other scientists whoare in it.
UNKNOWN (37:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:35):
And, you know, I see that continuing to I mean,
everybody's looking for thewhole basis of science is the
search for the truth.
So, you know, you have an ideaabout how flavors develop in
bourbon or whatever, but youreally got to put that to the
test.
You know what?
OK, I hear you saying the wordsout of your mouth, but where's
(37:55):
the proof behind it?
So I think, you know, and nowthat transparency is becoming a
big deal in bourbon production,I mean, that's half the reason
why we get the attention that weget is because we'll tell you
we'll teach you something youknow you rarely talk to the
wilderness trail people anddon't come away smarter than
whenever you engage with us tobegin with so that is our shtick
(38:17):
you know and I think people arecatching on golly that's really
working for those guys so maybeif we be more scientific we can
also garner some of that sameattention so hopefully it's a
movement
SPEAKER_00 (38:31):
yeah so that openness and stuff was that how
you came up with the idea ofyour wilderness trail lab
experience and how has that, andhow has your guests responded to
that?
SPEAKER_03 (38:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I mean, we're bourbonfans first and foremost, before
we ever had a distillery, we'rebourbon fanatics.
We love it.
We love podcasts.
We like going to barrel picks.
We love it, but we also knowwhat do we love about those
experiences?
It's the information that youget, the no bullshit information
that you get.
That's not just somebodytalking.
(39:04):
You know, there's a lot of thatgoing on in this industry.
And we really saw the need forit.
So we're filling a need with,you know, giving that
information.
But we're also given the factthat we've got will or firm
solutions rather, we're just ina position to have, I mean, The
other distilleries don't let youjust walk into their distillery.
(39:26):
You can't walk out of Maker'sMark and go right into Heaven
Hill and start checking outtheir equipment.
So we were in a very uniqueposition to have gone in and
studied all these distilleries,and they still let us in.
It's amazing.
But we've done a good job, Ithink, of assimilating that
information teaching thedistilleries that we're working
(39:49):
with, hey, here's what we found.
Here's how you can solve thisproblem for yourselves next
time.
You know, our business model isdetrimental to our business
because we're trying to makepeople smart enough to do what
we do for them.
But if you always do the rightthing, it always works out.
So that's kind of been our otherphilosophy.
(40:10):
So it is a little detrimental toour business model, but, you
know, it came back to us.
SPEAKER_02 (40:15):
Yeah, I thought that lab experience when we were out
there was a really cool aspectof it all and getting to see the
different tools that you guysuse and how deep the analysis
goes with each batch was reallyfun to see a little behind the
scenes action there.
So kudos to you guys for openingthat up.
It's really cool.
SPEAKER_03 (40:32):
Yeah, that's worked out really well for us.
We've got the lab experienceswhere people get to come in, put
lab coats on and go out andsample from the fermenters and
bring those samples back to thelaboratory and actually run
several of the tests that we runin a day's time.
And also explaining what are wedoing here?
We're checking the bricks.
Well, what the hell does thatmean?
(40:54):
That's the amount of sugarthat's in there.
Well, why do I care about howmuch sugar is in there?
Because the amount of sugarthat's in my mash is, Tells me
what is my alcohol by volumegoing to be at the end of the
fermenter.
So I know at the end offermentation, if I hit 8.7%
alcohol by volume, I got everybit of alcohol that I can
(41:14):
possibly get out of that batchversus if it was 6.5, I know I
left 2% of alcohol on the table.
So, that's the purpose of thelab test, and that's just
another level of thattransparency that we're trying
to offer as a guest experience,and so it's really working out
great.
SPEAKER_02 (41:33):
Yeah, super unique.
Pat, is that offered toeverybody that comes through, or
is that a special reservation onyour website, or is it one day a
week, one day a month, or how doyou handle that?
SPEAKER_03 (41:42):
You know, that's a great dadgum question, and I
wish I knew where I'll stop myhead.
I'm sure it's something on thewebsite that you sign up for.
That's my understanding of it.
I'm more in the creative phasethan the scheduling phase.
That's right.
I understand.
SPEAKER_02 (41:59):
Well, along those lines, I guess Wilderness Trail
was acquired by Campari.
Was it 2022, I believe?
Yeah.
Has that partnership for thebrand, has it– How are you
staying true to your originalvision when a large organization
like that takes over your baby?
And how do you stay hands-on anddriving the vision of it all
(42:22):
still?
SPEAKER_03 (42:23):
Yeah, so, you know, we...
aren't producing any morewhiskey now than we were back
then.
So we already had the capacity.
A lot of times when you do a bigdeal like that, it's because you
need the capital to get to thatnext level of production, which
we already had.
So we had already accomplishedthat.
It's really more aboutdistribution.
(42:43):
You know, how do we get into, wewere already in 44 states before
we did that deal.
And we were starting to get intoglobal territories.
And quite simply, we're lookingfor a partner that could get Get
us into those spots.
And also, you know, Campari iswell known to have their own
global distribution network.
And so that's exactly what thepartnership was about.
(43:06):
And that's what we've that'swhat we've done together, you
know, and that's that's what ourgoal has been.
SPEAKER_02 (43:13):
Love it.
What?
All right.
Brag a little bit.
How many are you in 50 statesnow and how many countries are
where do you where is it now?
SPEAKER_03 (43:20):
We're in 50 states, to my knowledge.
I'm pretty sure we're in all 50.
And then I know we're in ahandful of different countries,
but right off the top.
I mean, it's kind of like we'regetting ready.
We've already kind of gotfeelers out in all these
different spots and we're justgetting ready to feed the beast.
A lot of that, you know,especially in the corporate
(43:41):
world.
It's not just Shane and Idriving around in a car making
board decisions in two minutes.
It takes a little more timethese days.
Well,
SPEAKER_02 (43:51):
kudos to you, man.
That's incredibly impressive.
13 years ago, did you ever thinkyour whiskey was going to be
sold across the world?
SPEAKER_03 (43:58):
No.
I mean, we always had the dream.
I mean, to be honest with you,we just, you know, we either
knew we were going to be asuccessful distillery or we were
going to have unlimitedChristmas and birthday presents
for all of our friends andfamily for the rest of our
lives.
That's right.
I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (44:18):
All right, so we're getting close to the end here,
but we have, I guess, anotherkind of fun question, but it
also could be reflective.
So if you could go back and giveyourself one piece of advice
when you're starting WildernessTrail, what would it be and why?
SPEAKER_03 (44:37):
Well, you know, coming into having our own
distillery, With our backgroundin helping distilleries, we had
a heck of a big upper handcompared to a lot of people that
are doing that.
And so we had a lot ofconfidence.
When we were setting up our potstill, I remember one instance
that occurred.
(44:57):
Our pot is very interesting, isvery unique because we didn't
want to have a boiler togenerate steam.
So we wanted to heat it based onelectricity.
So basically it's a copper potthat sets down into a water bath
and that water bath is heatedwith electrodes.
So first thing we had to do isfill up that water jacket that's
(45:18):
around our pot and that wouldget subsequently heated so we
hook a hose up to that that partof our still we turn the water
on my brother actually mybrother mike heist he was our
head distiller at that time andhe hooked the hose up and got
the approval of the engineer onstaff which was shane hey man
you know i'm gonna get ready tofill this thing up he said hey
(45:40):
is the pressure relief device inoh yeah it's in there okay so
hook the hose up turn the hoseon Hour later, whatever, checked
the jacket, and it didn't haveany water in it.
It wasn't filling up.
It's like, what the hell's goingon here?
So we opened up the manway tothe still and realized the whole
(46:00):
bottom of our pot was crumpledup to the top.
We totally pressurized that.
So the pressure relief...
The pressure relief device wasjust a screw in there.
That had to be taken out and theactual pressure relief device
put in.
But we ruined our still beforewe ever ran it.
(46:22):
So if I could go back in timeand give myself one piece of
advice, it would be check thepressure relief valve on the
still, dude.
We've seen that cause problemsat other distilleries, too.
But that's something that youwant to look at.
Pressure relief is very
SPEAKER_02 (46:41):
important.
SPEAKER_03 (46:42):
Yeah.
Is it a Vendome still, I assume?
Oh, yeah, it was a Vendomestill, which is good news
because Louisville and Danvillearen't that far apart.
So we called Rob and Mike andtold them that we broke our
still before we ever ran it, andthey were like, what?
So they came and got it on aflatbed, took it back up to
Louisville, and actuallyfortified it a little more.
That actually probably needed tohappen because of how easy that
(47:05):
occurred.
So it ended up being a goodthing.
I bet you they could rob a micand tell all kinds of stories,
man.
I'm sure you're not the firstnor the last that's doing
something like that.
Yeah, they at one point in time,they probably gave away more
firm solutions business cardsthan we did because they're
constantly getting, hey, myfirm, my mash is doing this.
(47:26):
Like, it's got nothing to dowith this.
You know, let's call these guys.
SPEAKER_02 (47:31):
That's great, man.
Good story.
What's one of your favoritememories around a glass of
whiskey?
Is it with Shane?
Is it with maybe a familymember, with one of your other
buddies, sitting down there byyourself when you had a life
revelation?
What you got?
SPEAKER_03 (47:46):
Man, that's a good question.
I've had so many great times,you know, sitting around
whiskey.
I mean, you know, in general,just chilling out with friends.
And, you know, I mean, there'sbeen times of, It's really hard
to say.
That's a tough question.
One of the most, I will say arecent time that I pulled out
(48:08):
some damn good whiskey.
I had some buddies that were infrom the British Bourbon
Society.
Recently visited the distillery,a couple of the members who I've
been communicating with for awhile.
Shane and I actually went toEngland.
Gosh, whenever our whiskeysfirst came out, the British
Bourbon Society actually did thefirst barrel pick ever of
(48:28):
Wilderness Trail.
So I got an interestinggeography lesson over in
England.
Me and Shane were in London, andso we called these guys up.
We're like, hey, man, we're inEngland.
We'll just come see you guys.
And they're like, oh, hell yeah,man, let's come see us.
So...
we finally got around to askingthe question, where are you guys
anyway?
And they're like, Oh, we're inManchester, which is total
(48:53):
spectrum is.
So three hour train ride, we endup with, instead of getting
lynched by, uh, 200 angryBritish bourbon people from us
canceling, we jumped on a train,went all the way up to, um,
Manchester had exactly two hoursto be with those guys.
Had a blast.
(49:13):
Jumped back on the same train,made it back to London just in
time to get our plane out ofthere.
But we've always kept a kinshipwith those guys, and a couple of
them showed up to the distilleryrecently.
And I had the fortune of comingup on some cool old whiskey.
A guy called me up, a friend ofmine from the University of
Kentucky.
He's like, do you know anybodythat wants any old whiskey?
(49:35):
I'm like, yeah, me.
He's like, what do you got?
I don't know.
Just come look at it.
And all my way over there, I'mjust dreaming what it could be.
And it's Old Fitzgerald, RebelYell, Weller from 1970s that was
distilled in the 60s.
So I got a bunch of bottles ofthis stuff, and I broke out one
(49:55):
of the Old Fitzgeralds for mybuddies at the British Bourbon
Society.
That's cool.
And we just had a– it was such a– I mean, it was so delicious,
first of all.
I was just blown away.
It was distilled probably around62 and bottled in 74 and just
delicious.
And that's just what it's allabout, you know, saving a good
(50:18):
bottle for a time.
And it meant so much to thoseguys and, just a great
experience.
That's what it's all about.
SPEAKER_02 (50:24):
That's really cool.
I'll tell you a great, a greatexperience.
Sorry, Joe, I got, I got toshare this one experience when
we had, when we were out there amonth or so ago and we sit down
to dinner and it's, it's Dr.
Pat and Joe and I, and a coupleof other guys that, that were on
the, on the trip and we get thecocktail menu.
And sure enough, there's,there's the, what is it?
The Dr.
Pat Heiss cocktail.
(50:47):
We got the Dr.
Pat Heiss cocktail with Dr.
Pat with us.
And I think we all started offthe evening.
with one of those.
That was a lot of fun.
That was an interesting drink,too.
They don't have
SPEAKER_03 (50:56):
coconut in it or something.
SPEAKER_02 (50:58):
They did great with it.
They sure did.
Is that the first cocktailyou've ever had named after you?
I think so.
Yep.
To your knowledge, love it.
SPEAKER_03 (51:08):
Yep.
I had other things named afterme.
It was a good cocktail.
SPEAKER_00 (51:14):
Good cocktail, great dinner, and great conversation.
Before we start off, Dr.
Pat, where can people findWilderness Trail products and
how can they get in contact withyou or your other business
solutions?
SPEAKER_03 (51:32):
Well, I mean, hopefully all you got to do is
go to your local liquor store tofind Wilderness Trail.
We're doing as good of a job aswe can to get it out there.
Definitely call out the name andask people for it if you see it
or don't see it either way.
And, you know, our distillery islocated in Danville, Kentucky.
We're on the Kentucky BourbonTrail, Heritage Trail.
(51:55):
So, you know, anybody visitingthe state, I highly encourage
you to come by and visit us atthe distillery.
Check out our products.
We're on all the major socialmedia networks.
I'm sure if you put Pat Heist'scell phone into a Google search
in my cell phone number, it'llprobably come up along with all
my other contact information.
So if anybody has heard anythingthat they are interested in and
(52:18):
wants to follow up, I'm not ahard guy to get a hold of.
SPEAKER_02 (52:23):
And I'll reiterate the fact that if you're on the
bourbon trail out there, makesure you're stopping by
Wilderness Trail.
It is quite the experience andsomething not to pass up.
SPEAKER_00 (52:31):
Yes, most definitely.
All right, Dr.
Rhett, well, thank you for yourtime.
It's the end of our show.
And remember, a bourbon withfriends can change the world.
Good night.
Cheers, guys.
Cheers.
Thank you, Pat.
Appreciate it, sir.
Oh, yeah.
Thank you, guys.
SPEAKER_01 (52:46):
Thanks for listening.
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