September 17, 2025 • 28 mins
There's nothing quite like a summer blockbuster to kick off a season of fun and relaxation in the sun. For as long as I can remember, studios have fought over the summer movie of the year, attempting to take that spot and reign supreme for that year. From Marvel films to Barbie and Oppenheimer, cinema domination has been a staple of moviegoers for quite some time now. Rewind about 50 years, and Jaws was the first film to kick off the summer blockbuster trend, bringing people in to see the larger-than-life (and bigger-than-the-boat) shark and the terror it brought to Amity Island. With so many people still having Jaws fever, Tipping Point Theatre has decided to open its season with a play that takes audiences behind the scenes of the movie, in The Shark Is Broken! While the cast and crew have been hard at work bringing the Orca to the Northville stage, we sat down and spoke with the director of the show, Bill Simmons, about what drew him to directing this play at Tipping Point Theatre!
In this exclusive Box Seat Babes interview, Bill Simmons talks about his fascination and journey with Jaws and what about The Shark is Broken script drew him in. With a narrative of three incredible actors woven into the drama of making a film, Simmons talks about how he wants to highlight the humanity of the story, while also exploring why films such as Jaws are so timeless and still relevant. The director also discusses how his directorial style has evolved over the years and how his approach to The Shark is Broken has shifted since the last show he directed at Tipping Point Theatre.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Thank you so much for joining me today, Bill, and taking time out of your busy schedule tochat about The Shark is Broken and Tipping Point Theater.
(00:05):
How you doing?
I'm good, Brian how are you?
I'm doing all right.
I'm so excited to have you here.
I'm so excited for the show.
I was talking with Julia Glander earlier in the month or last month.
And this was one of the shows that we were just both so excited to see arrive at thetheater.
What's it been like for you so far?
it's been an amazing process.
(00:25):
The three actors we cast are really hard working.
They're very dedicated.
They came to the first table read with a lot of familiarity with the script.
They clearly had been working on it.
We cast, think, right before Memorial Day.
And it was clear to me all three actors had been working pretty diligently.
And one of them, I think, even kind of did the table read, maybe
(00:49):
mostly off book, mostly not referring to the script.
Yeah, it was pretty impressive.
And within the first, I don't know, three or four days, it was pretty clear that we werejust gonna be able to make so much progress on the script in a really quick amount of time
because they were just working so hard.
And then the stage manager, Tracy Spade is great.
(01:09):
The design team is fabulous.
I'd worked with all of them except for one, I think, when I directed Half Time with Donhere at Tipping Point last January.
And it's just been a joy from beginning to end.
So well, beginning to this moment, this moment in time.
Yeah.
Yeah, because you're still about a week out from your first preview, is that correct?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We have a preview a week from today.
(01:31):
It's a matinee.
So September, what is that?
17th, eight, seven, eight.
Yeah.
So September 17th.
And we start adding tech elements in this coming Friday.
And in fact, I'm at the theater now and I just passed through the, the state main stagequickly and both the sound designer and the lighting designer are both in there working
(01:53):
right now.
So I think we're going to be in great shape come tech on Saturday.
Friday rather.
I mean, it has to be super exciting, kind of the final push to get it all together and tosee the final product up on stage.
Yeah.
Yeah.
mean, this is, I, you know, when I'm Julia sent me the script back in April and asked meto consider it to direct, I was like, play about the making of jaws.
(02:16):
and then I read it.
I was like, this is, I'm thoroughly intrigued.
And I jumped on board pretty quickly.
And then as I read it and started working on it and casting it, it's really, it's a lovelypiece of theater.
It's really, uh, it's in the sweet spot.
I think of the kind of theater people are looking for.
post pandemic.
It's 90 minutes, no intermission.
(02:36):
It's 11 scenes.
um It takes place in a fairly finite, well, a finite period of time, like the final monthof shooting of the movie Jaws.
It's just the three principal actors.
It's Robert Shaw, Richard Dreyfuss, and Roy Scheider.
They're all confined on the fishing boat because the shark was constantly, the sharks,plural, mechanical sharks were frequently broken.
(02:59):
or the weather conditions were terrible in Martha's Vineyard.
like, basically the entire picture that took place on the Orca, the fishing boat, which isabout the last third of the movie, all wasn't shot until the end of the filming.
And the filming went wildly over schedule.
They were supposed to be done by the 4th July and they did not finish until after LaborDay.
(03:20):
um So tension.
Yes, yes, yes.
Back when, you know,
movie studios in the seventies were really struggling m to kind of keep up thoseinfrastructures of those big, you know, backlots in Hollywood and Universal was no
different and, went pretty far over budget, pretty far over schedule.
(03:42):
So by the time we see the action of this play, those actors already are, um, you know,there, there's some tension as a result of how that film came about and the personalities
of those three men together on that site, in that.
confined space really is where the comedy and the drama uh really, really happen.
(04:03):
So when you got that script from Julia and you were asked to kind of consider it, whatfinally kind of made it like a yes for you?
Like what drew you into like, have to direct this show.
Well, I'm of the age where I couldn't see the movie.
The summer came out, I think I turned six.
And so my parents uh weren't, I mean, I don't know even when I got to see a movie likethat in the movie theater.
But I remember my parents had gone to see it.
(04:24):
My mom was very, the thing she kept talking about was the head floating out of the, ofthe, of the fishing boat.
um But it's because it's not just about the making of Jaws, but it's about three actorsand the
craft of acting, whether you're a movie star or you're a working actor in regionaltheater, like I've been for a chunk of my career and a director.
(04:46):
At the end of the day, it does not matter how many trophies are on your shelves.
I think a lot of actors, a lot of theater makers have a core of insecurity for one reasonor another.
I think some people are far more accomplished at overcoming that or that not being part oftheir day-to-day persona.
But I think
A lot of us are drawn to the profession because um we're both insecure and we need andwe're we're we're artists who work best in communities and theater makers work best in
(05:19):
community.
um So anyway, it just it speaks both about something that changed the summer summer movie.
um I mean, that was it became the summer blockbuster and our summers have been patterned.
uh
Um, that same juggernaut that Jaws was pretty much every summer since then.
And, um, but also it speaks to what it means to be an actor and to, uh, always be workingtoward a better product.
(05:47):
Um, at the same time, having doubts as to whether you're actually any good at it or not.
And, I think all three of these men and there's interesting origin stories.
I think all three of these men in the course of this play have, uh, father stories.
Okay.
ah I think that's another that can be a theme for a lot of artists where there's beenmaybe parents who haven't measured up or in some cases they've had a parent who's been a
(06:17):
real guiding light.
Like I think of the sculptor Louise Bourgeois who did all, who did those marvelous giantspider sculptures and she revered her mother and she saw a spider as a maternal figure,
you know, and uh
And that's why her spiders, while they are large and kind of very complex and somewhatmenacing, to her they were a vision of a beautiful mother figure.
(06:41):
anyway, parents, I think, play a lot of roles in artists.
And the fathers factor in very clearly in these three men's lives.
What I loved about that answer is that it not only did you speak on the nostalgic factor,which is kind of the theme of the season at Tipping Point, with you even talking about
your parents going to see Jaws and how this has fundamentally changed how movies are seen.
(07:05):
uh But it sounds like it's such an intimate story, like a very personal story inside amovie that was kind of larger than life.
mean, they literally needed a bigger boat in there.
like, uh so to have that personal story that that's that's like a
extra added layer that just seems really, I would assume interesting for an actor and adirector.
(07:25):
Yeah, I think this move, this play is one of those ones that I think for the three actors,it has the potential to continue to open them up both as humans and as actors throughout
the run of the play.
You know, I think, and I say this all the time to, to friends of mine who are not theatermakers, but go to theater.
(07:48):
I said, you know, I, um,
When I direct a play, of course, I see everything leading up to opening night.
try to get back in the middle of the run and I, unless I'm out of town, I try to get tothe closing and I live in Indianapolis.
So I am going to do my best to get back for the closing because I'm really curious to seehow this play grows.
But I tell friends who are not theater makers.
(08:09):
said, if you want to see, um usually when the play, well, not usually when the play is atits fullest, when it's most ripe is, is usually at the very end of a
of the play, particularly when actors have had a long run and it's a really meaty play.
And this play is a meaty play for these three actors.
There's comedy, there's physical violence.
(08:32):
Certain scenes move very fast.
They have a great deal of joy with one another, the three characters, but there's a lot oftension in the play.
And at the end, it's the final day of filming.
um there's a lot going through those three men's minds as they're wrapping up shooting.
And, and I think this play over the course of its run, it's going to continue to grow andget richer and deeper and actually also more joyful.
(08:58):
Um, because I think these three actors already are living pretty well in the play and Ihave an idea it's just gonna take off once they're with audiences.
I've seen two of these actors in different plays and they are incredible at their craft.
So I can only imagine how this is going to be exceptional with the three of them outthere.
That's great.
That's a nice hear Yeah, I'm very happy with these three guys.
(09:19):
I've seen one of them.
I've seen the work of one of them.
And then I have known the other two, one for a very long time and I'm one just in the lastyear or so.
So, yeah, I'm excited.
So what is kind of like your approach to directing a show such as this?
It sounds like there's a lot of different layers.
There's a lot of things you want to highlight.
Like what's your kind of your process for bringing this to stage?
(09:44):
Well, my training, I'm a method actor and my training specifically is Sanford Meisner.
And, um you know, there's he's been gone a long time, almost 30 years.
um you know, his those he directly trained.
mean, they're still with us.
Robert Duvall is still with us.
And Mary Steenburgen is still with us.
um And there's a lot of method actors out there.
(10:07):
But anyway, so I approach directing a play very much like I approach acting in a play.
which is um I'm looking at each character's arc, both over the whole journey of the playand then within each scene.
I, so when I'm directing, uh I'm acting frequently with the company of actors and kind oflike, what's this moment?
(10:31):
Is that moment working?
that a choice?
Like that choice.
like, that's a brilliant choice.
Or there's something about this moment that still doesn't feel authentic.
And, you know, we're, uh
going into our, we started our third week of rehearsals last night.
And, know, there's still some moments where I, in notes, I told actors, you know, I'mstill not sure what that is.
(10:53):
And one of the actors last night said, well, yeah, I'm trying to make that work.
And I just don't think it's working.
I said, you know what, let it go because we've tried it.
And whatever note I gave you a week or two ago, it's, it's not the, it's not, it's not themoment.
Right.
So my approach when I direct is,
very much to work with the actors as we're shaping the show together.
(11:13):
And then with designers, really, I changed my philosophy coming out of the pandemic.
I used to go into the pandemic.
Part of it was just this um culture of not enough time, not enough resources, becauseprofessional theater, at least at the uh small and middle level range financially, there's
(11:36):
just...
Frequently in my experience over 30 some years is there just weren't a lot of resources,either rehearsals processes were very short, or we didn't get enough hours per week, or
there really wasn't enough resources to really give us a robust set, robust costumes orwhatever.
And so, and I realized post pandemic, you know, I'm actually also a consultant infundraising.
(12:03):
And so
That's part of my work.
But, but now as a director, I'm like, I'm just going to meet production companies wherethey are.
And I'm going to uh not come in with a lot of uh ideas about what I think it should looklike or sound like or feel like or what the costumes would be.
I used to have these very elaborate notebooks that I would build three ring binders whereI would, you know, copy things out of uh newspapers and magazines, or I'd turn them out of
(12:31):
magazines and I'd buy
Brille punch them and put them in these binders.
And I download stuff from the internet and print it out.
And, I make these very elaborate visual things and I would share those with the designers.
And now I don't do nearly as much of that for myself.
And I really have gotten to this place post pandemic.
I'm like, you know what?
I'm just going to let, I'm going to these designers are all far better trained than I amin their particular areas of expertise.
(12:58):
Let them.
They're going to help me create, we're going to create a world together.
That's far more compelling and exciting for all of us.
If we're all allowed to just bring it to the table.
And then as a director, know, there are choices and I, but I try to be reallycollaborative with all the designers to make sure I'm not squelching, squelching there.
(13:22):
their imaginations and because it ultimately a costume designer, sound designer, or setdesigner, whatever the designer is, I want them to have as much of their vision realized
as I as a director and as the actors have in the space.
So I've really tried to come back.
I've tried to get to a place of this as a community, making this project come to liferather than it's a director's vision that gets to dictate everything.
(13:50):
That is such an interesting, my day job is a psychologist.
So to see someone kind of do that transition, letting go like that, it's probably bothfreeing and maybe even a little scary because you're trusting in the people.
They're like, OK, this is maybe the vision, but where's your interpretation within that?
Yes, I that is, would say trust is a huge thing that I have um mindfully welcomed into mylife with the help of a therapist and a career counselor and, ah and a life coach.
(14:21):
And just also by putting it out there with my friends or whatever, like I'm reallyendeavoring to trust and see what happens.
And to be honest, it makes the work so much more joyful.
and less stressful.
Well, really just joyful.
I have very few moments of stress, particularly with this project, partly because I'veworked with this theater company before and worked with most of the designers.
(14:46):
And so we had a level of trust as a result of that project.
And I'm just so excited by the energy.
I mean, like I said, there's two designers in there right now who are, and it's Wednesdayand they're not, I'm not gonna, we're not gonna start putting their work into the show
until Friday.
And it's just, and our set designer, you know, we had to make some adjustments to the set,based on what he designed and what we thought we had in the rehearsal room.
(15:12):
And on Sunday we found a good compromise that I think is going to actually serve the showwell for the actors and for our set designer getting his vision out on that, on that
stage.
On that note, was kind of wondering, in my head with this question, kind of went to thestaging with, is there any challenges to bringing this production to life on stage?
(15:32):
Because you're bringing a boat into a very intimate, small, like it's a nice stage, butit's probably not big enough for a boat.
No, you know, it's one of those stages that when I directed Halftime with Don, it feltlarge.
so when we started talking about putting the orca out there, it was just, sure, we'regoing to get most of it out there.
(15:59):
we were going to have the uh very front of the boat is called the pulpit.
If you've seen most people, hopefully who watch this podcast will have seen Jaws.
But there's that moment where uh Dreyfus is trying to get Scheider out onto the pulpitwith the shark out there so that he can get perspective as to here's what a six foot man
(16:24):
looks like against this 25 foot shark, right?
So he's like, go out there, go out there.
And Rory Scheider was like, I don't want to go out there.
think that shark's going to jump up and bite the pulpit off, right?
We had actually envisioned getting the boat set at an angle where the pulpit would be, uhit's the front of the ship, would be facing what we call the vom where the audience comes
(16:46):
in from the lobby into the theater.
We thought, well, that'd be really cool to have that pulpit there elevated, right?
There was no way to, John Charles, our set designer, I would love to, there's no way forus to do that and also get enough of both the
Um, prow of the boat, the, the forward cabin, the middle cabin where like, you know, wherethe Indian app, the USS Indianapolis speech takes place, the aft deck, you know, there was
(17:14):
no way to get that much.
So we ended up, what the audience is going to see is you're going to the audience, um, howcenter is going to be facing the starboard side of the boat.
And you'll see the, uh
main cabin where the USS Indianapolis, a lot of the, know, where they're singing songs andwhatever.
And then the aft deck and then part of the bridge.
(17:37):
And you're going to see that and you'll see the shark cage that gets used in the film andyou're going to see the tanks and whatever.
So we've got probably, I'd say 60 % of the boat.
Um, and John Charles has had taken some liberties with the proportions of the cabin andthe, and the, and the aft deck, but, but
It's going to look recognizable to the audience when they come in as to what part of theboat they're seeing.
(18:02):
um yeah, all 11 scenes take place on the boat.
So yeah, it was, it was an interesting challenge.
I think we all thought we were going to get more boat on the set than we ultimately wereable to achieve.
I still feel like that's a ton of boat that you've managed to fit on that stage.
Like I've seen quite a few shows there now and it while it's a very, it's a nice sizestage that I can't imagine having 60 % of a boat on there for everybody to see.
(18:29):
No, no, no.
I may be, you know, I think that's probably about that.
I'd say, I mean, you get almost the transom, which is the back of the boat.
Actually, if John Charles, because of the audience, he couldn't build, you know, I mean,it's conceivable you could squeeze it in there, but that's a big chunk of the boat.
And then there's the after whatever.
So it's amazing to me, we got in as much as we did, but we had grand ambitions to havemore boat and more of it.
(18:55):
But yeah, that was.
incredible.
um mean, just even, it's gonna be impressive walking in there and just seeing that, youknow, right off the bat that's setting the tone for what's about to be a really incredible
show.
Yeah, I'm excited.
I'm very excited for this show.
It feels like it's coming a good time too.
It's the 50th anniversary of the film.
You know, we went, uh two of the three cast members and our assistant stage manager andher husband, we all went to see the screening of Jaws on the big screen, I think Labor
(19:28):
Day.
And it was, I had never seen it on the big screen and it really holds up 50 years later.
I mean, it feels like it could have been released.
I mean, you know, yes, the shark.
feels of an era, but still as a buddy picture, which really it is the last third of thefilm is a buddy picture, just the three guys, right?
And it really holds up and it's just joyful even just, I know it's about a shark eatingpeople, but it's just a joyful feeling film to, and it connects us, right?
(19:58):
I mean, so many of us have some familiarity with it, right?
And so it feels like something that we don't have as much of in 2025.
which is these things that commonly unite us.
I mean, I'm in 56 and I'm of that era where I saw the finale of the MASH television showwith my folks, because I was 14, I think, that summer.
(20:22):
I remember being home from college and being at my grandparents and watching the BerlinWall fall.
And at that time, there were three major networks and public broadcasting and
I grew up in South Bend and we had a of a religious channel, Channel 46.
That was it.
you know, and, know, I'm sure I wasn't, I hadn't been born yet when the moon landinghappened, but I think, you know, I think there are those things that in 2025, there are so
(20:48):
few things we share unless they're big tragedies like 9-11, right?
And, but this movie feels like that.
So it feels like something that bonds us together in a joyful way.
And
Also, our attention spans have gotten shorter and this plays 90 minutes, no intermission,right?
But it's compelling.
It's funny.
They play a pub game in it.
They play cards in it.
(21:08):
They fight.
Somebody pulls a knife on somebody.
um Somebody throws up from seasickness.
I mean, it's just all these things.
And um so it just feels like a play that even if I weren't directing it, I think I wouldwant to see, and a friend of mine actually saw this in New York.
She saw it with.
Robert Shaw's son Ian who wrote the play played his father and she said it was like beingin the space with Robert Shaw.
(21:33):
But she said, I'm so happy you're getting to do this.
She said, because I love that play.
she said, and she's an actor and she's doing a play in Indianapolis.
And she said, if I wasn't, I would be up there for your opening night.
That's how excited she is just to see the play again.
I do think that what you're saying there is it's really true.
(21:54):
We don't have many things that unite us.
But when you look at the box office of what happened when the re-release happened overLabor Day, people were going out in droves to see, you know, Jaws, which I think that when
people see that The Shark is Broken is about the making of Jaws, there's going to be thatinterest because it never really stopped, you know?
Like Jaws is still relevant nowadays.
(22:17):
Yeah, I would hope that people who are who see Jaws, I know that when we went to see it atImagine Canton, the theater had bought advertising.
And so there was an ad, you know, and I don't know how many people, you know, before theshow before the even preview start, I don't know how many people are actually paying
attention to those things.
(22:37):
But I would hope that some people who aren't theater, live theater goers,
Am I like, oh, that sounds cool and cool and go and come and see it and, and, aren't just,they aren't just entertained, but they're actually moved by this play.
Um, because I do think it's the kind of play that I think even if you're not an avidtheater goer, I think it's a play that you would, people would genuinely enjoy.
(23:03):
Um, yeah.
think part of that does speak to the easy digestibility of it too.
Like you said, it's an hour and a half.
Some people, I know that they're just like, two hours and 45 minutes plus intermission.
That's like a long time commitment.
90 minutes is nothing.
That's less than an average movie nowadays.
No, no.
And people say, I'll watch, you know, I can't sit down to watch a whole movie, but I'llbinge three episodes of, know, the bear or, uh, you know, hacks.
(23:28):
And I'm like, well, that's 90 minutes.
That's some movies are 90 minutes.
uh, I just went and saw a movie the other day.
It's sort of interesting being up here in Michigan.
I've seen three movies in the movie theater.
And in the course of like two weeks, I saw jaws.
saw the roses and I just saw twinless.
And I don't think twin list is more than 90 minutes.
(23:50):
But before I was in Michigan, I probably hadn't seen three movies in a movie theater inthe last 12 months.
But somehow I'm like, because they're so close here and I have, I have Saturday nightsfree and Sunday nights free and we're completely off on Mondays.
So I was like, sure, I'm just gonna go to a movie, get a little dinner somewhere, work onthe script.
And yeah, so anyway, yeah, yeah.
(24:12):
It's funny to me, like people like now I can't sit and watch a two hour movie, but I'llbinge three episodes of hacks.
That's 90 minutes.
That's a feature film length.
So, no.
means that the shark is broken in the perfect amount of time, you know?
It totally is because, and also there are 11 scenes, but one is Roy Scheider, ohsunbathing in a speedo.
(24:35):
One scene is there's clearly a storm going on outside.
There's some sort of like, you know, nor'easter and you see Dr.
Tristan, know, trying not to get sick.
I forget what Roy Scheider does and Robert Shaw is up on the bridge, like something out ofKing Lear.
Like he's in this storm and he's like,
Daring the storm like suck them off the oracle, like just, you know, blow them out to sea.
(24:57):
Not whether that happened or not.
I don't know.
and then there are two different attempts at Robert Shaw doing the USS Indianapolis speechand the move and the play actually ends with our recreation of the take that actually
ended up in the movie.
And I didn't know this until I worked on this play.
didn't know Robert Shaw was a writer himself.
(25:19):
He actually wrote a play called The Man in the Glass Booth that I think uh ran in Londonand I think New York in the late sixties.
And then it was made into a movie with Maximilian Schell and it's about a Jew whopretended to be a Nazi and then had to go into hiding, I think, after the
(25:42):
war was over and they were hunting Nazis and Nazi collaborators.
And I didn't know that Robert Shaw was a playwright.
And it's interesting because I think the film version of the Man in the Glass Booth wasbeing filmed at the same time as Jaws was because both of them competed in the following
years.
(26:02):
They were released in 75 and both of them competed in the Oscars the following year.
But anyway, the more interesting part of that is that Robert Shaw
pretty much wrote the USS Indianapolis speech that you see in the film, because initiallyuh Robert Gottlieb script, was like a five page scene and Sean was like, this is too long.
This is crazy.
(26:22):
This is like, this wouldn't work for a stage play.
And so the one you see in the film is actually Robert Shaw having written it.
And apparently he was inspired and this is in the play.
He actually spent an evening drinking with Thornton Wilder, the playwright of our town.
And Thornton Wilder told Robert Shaw, well, you should rewrite it yourself.
If you don't like it, you know, go ahead.
(26:43):
And so that's what we see.
And, that's the very end of the play is that final take of Robert Shaw doing that speech.
And so it's kind of interesting because you get him, you know, yelling at StevenSpielberg, who's not in the play, but you hear a voiceover and Robert says, Steven, I
can't do this.
This is terrible.
(27:04):
And he's like, okay, Robert, why don't you take a crack at it then?
And then you see another attempt that doesn't work for it.
I won't spoil that for the audience for why that doesn't work.
And then we see the successful take of the end of the play.
So you also get to see, the point is you also get to see an actor who is also a playwrightemploying his craft as a playwright to improve the film script.
(27:27):
um So anyway, the point is, that the play, some scenes are longer and some of them arereally quick.
So there's not some sort of rhythm the audience falls into.
And that also, I learned this from a playwright friend of mine, Tom Horan.
He said, you you should always keep the storytelling varied because just when an audiencegets used to, the scene is going to be this long and this is going to happen.
(27:50):
You might have lights up and there's a scene in 15 seconds, lights are down, right?
It's so that the audience is like, they're slightly out of rhythm and that keeps them moreengaged.
Yeah.
they're gonna be involved in what's going on on stage.
That makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well thank you so much Bill for talking with me.
(28:11):
I'm so excited for this to arrive at Tipping Point Theatre.
We're so excited to see it.
But thank you for talking with us about The Shark is Broken.
Like first Brian, has been a delight.
Yeah.
So the shark is broken opens at tipping point theater on September 17th and runs throughOctober 12th So get your tickets now and we'll see you at the show
Thank you so much for joining me today, Bill, and taking time out of your busy schedule tochat about The Shark is Broken and Tipping Point Theater.
(00:05):
How you doing?
I'm good, Brian how are you?
I'm doing all right.
I'm so excited to have you here.
I'm so excited for the show.
I was talking with Julia Glander earlier in the month or last month.
And this was one of the shows that we were just both so excited to see arrive at thetheater.
What's it been like for you so far?
it's been an amazing process.
(00:25):
The three actors we cast are really hard working.
They're very dedicated.
They came to the first table read with a lot of familiarity with the script.
They clearly had been working on it.
We cast, think, right before Memorial Day.
And it was clear to me all three actors had been working pretty diligently.
And one of them, I think, even kind of did the table read, maybe
(00:49):
mostly off book, mostly not referring to the script.
Yeah, it was pretty impressive.
And within the first, I don't know, three or four days, it was pretty clear that we werejust gonna be able to make so much progress on the script in a really quick amount of time
because they were just working so hard.
And then the stage manager, Tracy Spade is great.
(01:09):
The design team is fabulous.
I'd worked with all of them except for one, I think, when I directed Half Time with Donhere at Tipping Point last January.
And it's just been a joy from beginning to end.
So well, beginning to this moment, this moment in time.
Yeah.
Yeah, because you're still about a week out from your first preview, is that correct?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We have a preview a week from today.
(01:31):
It's a matinee.
So September, what is that?
17th, eight, seven, eight.
Yeah.
So September 17th.
And we start adding tech elements in this coming Friday.
And in fact, I'm at the theater now and I just passed through the, the state main stagequickly and both the sound designer and the lighting designer are both in there working
(01:53):
right now.
So I think we're going to be in great shape come tech on Saturday.
Friday rather.
I mean, it has to be super exciting, kind of the final push to get it all together and tosee the final product up on stage.
Yeah.
Yeah.
mean, this is, I, you know, when I'm Julia sent me the script back in April and asked meto consider it to direct, I was like, play about the making of jaws.
(02:16):
and then I read it.
I was like, this is, I'm thoroughly intrigued.
And I jumped on board pretty quickly.
And then as I read it and started working on it and casting it, it's really, it's a lovelypiece of theater.
It's really, uh, it's in the sweet spot.
I think of the kind of theater people are looking for.
post pandemic.
It's 90 minutes, no intermission.
(02:36):
It's 11 scenes.
um It takes place in a fairly finite, well, a finite period of time, like the final monthof shooting of the movie Jaws.
It's just the three principal actors.
It's Robert Shaw, Richard Dreyfuss, and Roy Scheider.
They're all confined on the fishing boat because the shark was constantly, the sharks,plural, mechanical sharks were frequently broken.
(02:59):
or the weather conditions were terrible in Martha's Vineyard.
like, basically the entire picture that took place on the Orca, the fishing boat, which isabout the last third of the movie, all wasn't shot until the end of the filming.
And the filming went wildly over schedule.
They were supposed to be done by the 4th July and they did not finish until after LaborDay.
(03:20):
um So tension.
Yes, yes, yes.
Back when, you know,
movie studios in the seventies were really struggling m to kind of keep up thoseinfrastructures of those big, you know, backlots in Hollywood and Universal was no
different and, went pretty far over budget, pretty far over schedule.
(03:42):
So by the time we see the action of this play, those actors already are, um, you know,there, there's some tension as a result of how that film came about and the personalities
of those three men together on that site, in that.
confined space really is where the comedy and the drama uh really, really happen.
(04:03):
So when you got that script from Julia and you were asked to kind of consider it, whatfinally kind of made it like a yes for you?
Like what drew you into like, have to direct this show.
Well, I'm of the age where I couldn't see the movie.
The summer came out, I think I turned six.
And so my parents uh weren't, I mean, I don't know even when I got to see a movie likethat in the movie theater.
But I remember my parents had gone to see it.
(04:24):
My mom was very, the thing she kept talking about was the head floating out of the, ofthe, of the fishing boat.
um But it's because it's not just about the making of Jaws, but it's about three actorsand the
craft of acting, whether you're a movie star or you're a working actor in regionaltheater, like I've been for a chunk of my career and a director.
(04:46):
At the end of the day, it does not matter how many trophies are on your shelves.
I think a lot of actors, a lot of theater makers have a core of insecurity for one reasonor another.
I think some people are far more accomplished at overcoming that or that not being part oftheir day-to-day persona.
But I think
A lot of us are drawn to the profession because um we're both insecure and we need andwe're we're we're artists who work best in communities and theater makers work best in
(05:19):
community.
um So anyway, it just it speaks both about something that changed the summer summer movie.
um I mean, that was it became the summer blockbuster and our summers have been patterned.
uh
Um, that same juggernaut that Jaws was pretty much every summer since then.
And, um, but also it speaks to what it means to be an actor and to, uh, always be workingtoward a better product.
(05:47):
Um, at the same time, having doubts as to whether you're actually any good at it or not.
And, I think all three of these men and there's interesting origin stories.
I think all three of these men in the course of this play have, uh, father stories.
Okay.
ah I think that's another that can be a theme for a lot of artists where there's beenmaybe parents who haven't measured up or in some cases they've had a parent who's been a
(06:17):
real guiding light.
Like I think of the sculptor Louise Bourgeois who did all, who did those marvelous giantspider sculptures and she revered her mother and she saw a spider as a maternal figure,
you know, and uh
And that's why her spiders, while they are large and kind of very complex and somewhatmenacing, to her they were a vision of a beautiful mother figure.
(06:41):
anyway, parents, I think, play a lot of roles in artists.
And the fathers factor in very clearly in these three men's lives.
What I loved about that answer is that it not only did you speak on the nostalgic factor,which is kind of the theme of the season at Tipping Point, with you even talking about
your parents going to see Jaws and how this has fundamentally changed how movies are seen.
(07:05):
uh But it sounds like it's such an intimate story, like a very personal story inside amovie that was kind of larger than life.
mean, they literally needed a bigger boat in there.
like, uh so to have that personal story that that's that's like a
extra added layer that just seems really, I would assume interesting for an actor and adirector.
(07:25):
Yeah, I think this move, this play is one of those ones that I think for the three actors,it has the potential to continue to open them up both as humans and as actors throughout
the run of the play.
You know, I think, and I say this all the time to, to friends of mine who are not theatermakers, but go to theater.
(07:48):
I said, you know, I, um,
When I direct a play, of course, I see everything leading up to opening night.
try to get back in the middle of the run and I, unless I'm out of town, I try to get tothe closing and I live in Indianapolis.
So I am going to do my best to get back for the closing because I'm really curious to seehow this play grows.
But I tell friends who are not theater makers.
(08:09):
said, if you want to see, um usually when the play, well, not usually when the play is atits fullest, when it's most ripe is, is usually at the very end of a
of the play, particularly when actors have had a long run and it's a really meaty play.
And this play is a meaty play for these three actors.
There's comedy, there's physical violence.
(08:32):
Certain scenes move very fast.
They have a great deal of joy with one another, the three characters, but there's a lot oftension in the play.
And at the end, it's the final day of filming.
um there's a lot going through those three men's minds as they're wrapping up shooting.
And, and I think this play over the course of its run, it's going to continue to grow andget richer and deeper and actually also more joyful.
(08:58):
Um, because I think these three actors already are living pretty well in the play and Ihave an idea it's just gonna take off once they're with audiences.
I've seen two of these actors in different plays and they are incredible at their craft.
So I can only imagine how this is going to be exceptional with the three of them outthere.
That's great.
That's a nice hear Yeah, I'm very happy with these three guys.
(09:19):
I've seen one of them.
I've seen the work of one of them.
And then I have known the other two, one for a very long time and I'm one just in the lastyear or so.
So, yeah, I'm excited.
So what is kind of like your approach to directing a show such as this?
It sounds like there's a lot of different layers.
There's a lot of things you want to highlight.
Like what's your kind of your process for bringing this to stage?
(09:44):
Well, my training, I'm a method actor and my training specifically is Sanford Meisner.
And, um you know, there's he's been gone a long time, almost 30 years.
um you know, his those he directly trained.
mean, they're still with us.
Robert Duvall is still with us.
And Mary Steenburgen is still with us.
um And there's a lot of method actors out there.
(10:07):
But anyway, so I approach directing a play very much like I approach acting in a play.
which is um I'm looking at each character's arc, both over the whole journey of the playand then within each scene.
I, so when I'm directing, uh I'm acting frequently with the company of actors and kind oflike, what's this moment?
(10:31):
Is that moment working?
that a choice?
Like that choice.
like, that's a brilliant choice.
Or there's something about this moment that still doesn't feel authentic.
And, you know, we're, uh
going into our, we started our third week of rehearsals last night.
And, know, there's still some moments where I, in notes, I told actors, you know, I'mstill not sure what that is.
(10:53):
And one of the actors last night said, well, yeah, I'm trying to make that work.
And I just don't think it's working.
I said, you know what, let it go because we've tried it.
And whatever note I gave you a week or two ago, it's, it's not the, it's not, it's not themoment.
Right.
So my approach when I direct is,
very much to work with the actors as we're shaping the show together.
(11:13):
And then with designers, really, I changed my philosophy coming out of the pandemic.
I used to go into the pandemic.
Part of it was just this um culture of not enough time, not enough resources, becauseprofessional theater, at least at the uh small and middle level range financially, there's
(11:36):
just...
Frequently in my experience over 30 some years is there just weren't a lot of resources,either rehearsals processes were very short, or we didn't get enough hours per week, or
there really wasn't enough resources to really give us a robust set, robust costumes orwhatever.
And so, and I realized post pandemic, you know, I'm actually also a consultant infundraising.
(12:03):
And so
That's part of my work.
But, but now as a director, I'm like, I'm just going to meet production companies wherethey are.
And I'm going to uh not come in with a lot of uh ideas about what I think it should looklike or sound like or feel like or what the costumes would be.
I used to have these very elaborate notebooks that I would build three ring binders whereI would, you know, copy things out of uh newspapers and magazines, or I'd turn them out of
(12:31):
magazines and I'd buy
Brille punch them and put them in these binders.
And I download stuff from the internet and print it out.
And, I make these very elaborate visual things and I would share those with the designers.
And now I don't do nearly as much of that for myself.
And I really have gotten to this place post pandemic.
I'm like, you know what?
I'm just going to let, I'm going to these designers are all far better trained than I amin their particular areas of expertise.
(12:58):
Let them.
They're going to help me create, we're going to create a world together.
That's far more compelling and exciting for all of us.
If we're all allowed to just bring it to the table.
And then as a director, know, there are choices and I, but I try to be reallycollaborative with all the designers to make sure I'm not squelching, squelching there.
(13:22):
their imaginations and because it ultimately a costume designer, sound designer, or setdesigner, whatever the designer is, I want them to have as much of their vision realized
as I as a director and as the actors have in the space.
So I've really tried to come back.
I've tried to get to a place of this as a community, making this project come to liferather than it's a director's vision that gets to dictate everything.
(13:50):
That is such an interesting, my day job is a psychologist.
So to see someone kind of do that transition, letting go like that, it's probably bothfreeing and maybe even a little scary because you're trusting in the people.
They're like, OK, this is maybe the vision, but where's your interpretation within that?
Yes, I that is, would say trust is a huge thing that I have um mindfully welcomed into mylife with the help of a therapist and a career counselor and, ah and a life coach.
(14:21):
And just also by putting it out there with my friends or whatever, like I'm reallyendeavoring to trust and see what happens.
And to be honest, it makes the work so much more joyful.
and less stressful.
Well, really just joyful.
I have very few moments of stress, particularly with this project, partly because I'veworked with this theater company before and worked with most of the designers.
(14:46):
And so we had a level of trust as a result of that project.
And I'm just so excited by the energy.
I mean, like I said, there's two designers in there right now who are, and it's Wednesdayand they're not, I'm not gonna, we're not gonna start putting their work into the show
until Friday.
And it's just, and our set designer, you know, we had to make some adjustments to the set,based on what he designed and what we thought we had in the rehearsal room.
(15:12):
And on Sunday we found a good compromise that I think is going to actually serve the showwell for the actors and for our set designer getting his vision out on that, on that
stage.
On that note, was kind of wondering, in my head with this question, kind of went to thestaging with, is there any challenges to bringing this production to life on stage?
(15:32):
Because you're bringing a boat into a very intimate, small, like it's a nice stage, butit's probably not big enough for a boat.
No, you know, it's one of those stages that when I directed Halftime with Don, it feltlarge.
so when we started talking about putting the orca out there, it was just, sure, we'regoing to get most of it out there.
(15:59):
we were going to have the uh very front of the boat is called the pulpit.
If you've seen most people, hopefully who watch this podcast will have seen Jaws.
But there's that moment where uh Dreyfus is trying to get Scheider out onto the pulpitwith the shark out there so that he can get perspective as to here's what a six foot man
(16:24):
looks like against this 25 foot shark, right?
So he's like, go out there, go out there.
And Rory Scheider was like, I don't want to go out there.
think that shark's going to jump up and bite the pulpit off, right?
We had actually envisioned getting the boat set at an angle where the pulpit would be, uhit's the front of the ship, would be facing what we call the vom where the audience comes
(16:46):
in from the lobby into the theater.
We thought, well, that'd be really cool to have that pulpit there elevated, right?
There was no way to, John Charles, our set designer, I would love to, there's no way forus to do that and also get enough of both the
Um, prow of the boat, the, the forward cabin, the middle cabin where like, you know, wherethe Indian app, the USS Indianapolis speech takes place, the aft deck, you know, there was
(17:14):
no way to get that much.
So we ended up, what the audience is going to see is you're going to the audience, um, howcenter is going to be facing the starboard side of the boat.
And you'll see the, uh
main cabin where the USS Indianapolis, a lot of the, know, where they're singing songs andwhatever.
And then the aft deck and then part of the bridge.
(17:37):
And you're going to see that and you'll see the shark cage that gets used in the film andyou're going to see the tanks and whatever.
So we've got probably, I'd say 60 % of the boat.
Um, and John Charles has had taken some liberties with the proportions of the cabin andthe, and the, and the aft deck, but, but
It's going to look recognizable to the audience when they come in as to what part of theboat they're seeing.
(18:02):
um yeah, all 11 scenes take place on the boat.
So yeah, it was, it was an interesting challenge.
I think we all thought we were going to get more boat on the set than we ultimately wereable to achieve.
I still feel like that's a ton of boat that you've managed to fit on that stage.
Like I've seen quite a few shows there now and it while it's a very, it's a nice sizestage that I can't imagine having 60 % of a boat on there for everybody to see.
(18:29):
No, no, no.
I may be, you know, I think that's probably about that.
I'd say, I mean, you get almost the transom, which is the back of the boat.
Actually, if John Charles, because of the audience, he couldn't build, you know, I mean,it's conceivable you could squeeze it in there, but that's a big chunk of the boat.
And then there's the after whatever.
So it's amazing to me, we got in as much as we did, but we had grand ambitions to havemore boat and more of it.
(18:55):
But yeah, that was.
incredible.
um mean, just even, it's gonna be impressive walking in there and just seeing that, youknow, right off the bat that's setting the tone for what's about to be a really incredible
show.
Yeah, I'm excited.
I'm very excited for this show.
It feels like it's coming a good time too.
It's the 50th anniversary of the film.
You know, we went, uh two of the three cast members and our assistant stage manager andher husband, we all went to see the screening of Jaws on the big screen, I think Labor
(19:28):
Day.
And it was, I had never seen it on the big screen and it really holds up 50 years later.
I mean, it feels like it could have been released.
I mean, you know, yes, the shark.
feels of an era, but still as a buddy picture, which really it is the last third of thefilm is a buddy picture, just the three guys, right?
And it really holds up and it's just joyful even just, I know it's about a shark eatingpeople, but it's just a joyful feeling film to, and it connects us, right?
(19:58):
I mean, so many of us have some familiarity with it, right?
And so it feels like something that we don't have as much of in 2025.
which is these things that commonly unite us.
I mean, I'm in 56 and I'm of that era where I saw the finale of the MASH television showwith my folks, because I was 14, I think, that summer.
(20:22):
I remember being home from college and being at my grandparents and watching the BerlinWall fall.
And at that time, there were three major networks and public broadcasting and
I grew up in South Bend and we had a of a religious channel, Channel 46.
That was it.
you know, and, know, I'm sure I wasn't, I hadn't been born yet when the moon landinghappened, but I think, you know, I think there are those things that in 2025, there are so
(20:48):
few things we share unless they're big tragedies like 9-11, right?
And, but this movie feels like that.
So it feels like something that bonds us together in a joyful way.
And
Also, our attention spans have gotten shorter and this plays 90 minutes, no intermission,right?
But it's compelling.
It's funny.
They play a pub game in it.
They play cards in it.
(21:08):
They fight.
Somebody pulls a knife on somebody.
um Somebody throws up from seasickness.
I mean, it's just all these things.
And um so it just feels like a play that even if I weren't directing it, I think I wouldwant to see, and a friend of mine actually saw this in New York.
She saw it with.
Robert Shaw's son Ian who wrote the play played his father and she said it was like beingin the space with Robert Shaw.
(21:33):
But she said, I'm so happy you're getting to do this.
She said, because I love that play.
she said, and she's an actor and she's doing a play in Indianapolis.
And she said, if I wasn't, I would be up there for your opening night.
That's how excited she is just to see the play again.
I do think that what you're saying there is it's really true.
(21:54):
We don't have many things that unite us.
But when you look at the box office of what happened when the re-release happened overLabor Day, people were going out in droves to see, you know, Jaws, which I think that when
people see that The Shark is Broken is about the making of Jaws, there's going to be thatinterest because it never really stopped, you know?
Like Jaws is still relevant nowadays.
(22:17):
Yeah, I would hope that people who are who see Jaws, I know that when we went to see it atImagine Canton, the theater had bought advertising.
And so there was an ad, you know, and I don't know how many people, you know, before theshow before the even preview start, I don't know how many people are actually paying
attention to those things.
(22:37):
But I would hope that some people who aren't theater, live theater goers,
Am I like, oh, that sounds cool and cool and go and come and see it and, and, aren't just,they aren't just entertained, but they're actually moved by this play.
Um, because I do think it's the kind of play that I think even if you're not an avidtheater goer, I think it's a play that you would, people would genuinely enjoy.
(23:03):
Um, yeah.
think part of that does speak to the easy digestibility of it too.
Like you said, it's an hour and a half.
Some people, I know that they're just like, two hours and 45 minutes plus intermission.
That's like a long time commitment.
90 minutes is nothing.
That's less than an average movie nowadays.
No, no.
And people say, I'll watch, you know, I can't sit down to watch a whole movie, but I'llbinge three episodes of, know, the bear or, uh, you know, hacks.
(23:28):
And I'm like, well, that's 90 minutes.
That's some movies are 90 minutes.
uh, I just went and saw a movie the other day.
It's sort of interesting being up here in Michigan.
I've seen three movies in the movie theater.
And in the course of like two weeks, I saw jaws.
saw the roses and I just saw twinless.
And I don't think twin list is more than 90 minutes.
(23:50):
But before I was in Michigan, I probably hadn't seen three movies in a movie theater inthe last 12 months.
But somehow I'm like, because they're so close here and I have, I have Saturday nightsfree and Sunday nights free and we're completely off on Mondays.
So I was like, sure, I'm just gonna go to a movie, get a little dinner somewhere, work onthe script.
And yeah, so anyway, yeah, yeah.
(24:12):
It's funny to me, like people like now I can't sit and watch a two hour movie, but I'llbinge three episodes of hacks.
That's 90 minutes.
That's a feature film length.
So, no.
means that the shark is broken in the perfect amount of time, you know?
It totally is because, and also there are 11 scenes, but one is Roy Scheider, ohsunbathing in a speedo.
(24:35):
One scene is there's clearly a storm going on outside.
There's some sort of like, you know, nor'easter and you see Dr.
Tristan, know, trying not to get sick.
I forget what Roy Scheider does and Robert Shaw is up on the bridge, like something out ofKing Lear.
Like he's in this storm and he's like,
Daring the storm like suck them off the oracle, like just, you know, blow them out to sea.
(24:57):
Not whether that happened or not.
I don't know.
and then there are two different attempts at Robert Shaw doing the USS Indianapolis speechand the move and the play actually ends with our recreation of the take that actually
ended up in the movie.
And I didn't know this until I worked on this play.
didn't know Robert Shaw was a writer himself.
(25:19):
He actually wrote a play called The Man in the Glass Booth that I think uh ran in Londonand I think New York in the late sixties.
And then it was made into a movie with Maximilian Schell and it's about a Jew whopretended to be a Nazi and then had to go into hiding, I think, after the
(25:42):
war was over and they were hunting Nazis and Nazi collaborators.
And I didn't know that Robert Shaw was a playwright.
And it's interesting because I think the film version of the Man in the Glass Booth wasbeing filmed at the same time as Jaws was because both of them competed in the following
years.
(26:02):
They were released in 75 and both of them competed in the Oscars the following year.
But anyway, the more interesting part of that is that Robert Shaw
pretty much wrote the USS Indianapolis speech that you see in the film, because initiallyuh Robert Gottlieb script, was like a five page scene and Sean was like, this is too long.
This is crazy.
(26:22):
This is like, this wouldn't work for a stage play.
And so the one you see in the film is actually Robert Shaw having written it.
And apparently he was inspired and this is in the play.
He actually spent an evening drinking with Thornton Wilder, the playwright of our town.
And Thornton Wilder told Robert Shaw, well, you should rewrite it yourself.
If you don't like it, you know, go ahead.
(26:43):
And so that's what we see.
And, that's the very end of the play is that final take of Robert Shaw doing that speech.
And so it's kind of interesting because you get him, you know, yelling at StevenSpielberg, who's not in the play, but you hear a voiceover and Robert says, Steven, I
can't do this.
This is terrible.
(27:04):
And he's like, okay, Robert, why don't you take a crack at it then?
And then you see another attempt that doesn't work for it.
I won't spoil that for the audience for why that doesn't work.
And then we see the successful take of the end of the play.
So you also get to see, the point is you also get to see an actor who is also a playwrightemploying his craft as a playwright to improve the film script.
(27:27):
um So anyway, the point is, that the play, some scenes are longer and some of them arereally quick.
So there's not some sort of rhythm the audience falls into.
And that also, I learned this from a playwright friend of mine, Tom Horan.
He said, you you should always keep the storytelling varied because just when an audiencegets used to, the scene is going to be this long and this is going to happen.
(27:50):
You might have lights up and there's a scene in 15 seconds, lights are down, right?
It's so that the audience is like, they're slightly out of rhythm and that keeps them moreengaged.
Yeah.
they're gonna be involved in what's going on on stage.
That makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well thank you so much Bill for talking with me.
(28:11):
I'm so excited for this to arrive at Tipping Point Theatre.
We're so excited to see it.
But thank you for talking with us about The Shark is Broken.
Like first Brian, has been a delight.
Yeah.
So the shark is broken opens at tipping point theater on September 17th and runs throughOctober 12th So get your tickets now and we'll see you at the show
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.