When we're younger, we're sold the idea that all love and romance is magical through fairytales and Disney movies. However, as we grow older, the rose-colored glasses come off as we discover the reality of love. A toxic side can creep into our romantic relationships, which can unfortunately seem exciting to many without the proper reflection and growth needed to escape broken patterns. This concept lies at the core of Sam Shepard's play, Fool For Love, which is coming to Port Huron, MI this weekend, thanks to Teatro di Vita and its founder, Lucie Gillespie! Before it premieres on the Citadel Stage at Enter Stage Right, we sat down and spoke to the director of the show, along with two of the cast members of this incredible production.
In this exclusive Box Seat Babes interview, director Callie Bussell and co-stars Eric Roman and Lucie Gillespie discuss their time on this production and what drew them to this story. With both Bussell and Gillespie's extensive relationship with the play, there's an undeniable love for Fool For Love and a desire to bring justice to this story. How do all three artists approach this project in their respective roles? How has their view of love and romance changed since beginning this production? What are they hoping audiences take away from Fool For Love? Check out this interview to discover all those answers and more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Thank you so much, you three, for taking time out of your schedule.
um How is it going?
Fantastic, right?
It's going great.
It is.
It's just getting down to the, you know, the last two weeks before we open.
just lots of last minute little details and making sure everything's ready.
(00:24):
So I'm not sleeping much.
What a sleep in the last two weeks, right?
Yeah, I don't think any of us are.
Eric, what's kind of that like last two weeks?
I'm not an actor, so I've never performed before.
So what is that kind of that last two weeks, that last push for like for you?
Well, I think it's different for everybody.
(00:45):
me, it's a lot of coming down to the wire.
also part, I'm also doing the set.
So putting the finishing touches on that, it's coming down to the wire and moving all ofthat into the theater when we do that.
So yeah, it's a little bit of pressure, but it's welcome pressure.
And I think we're all handling it pretty well, right?
(01:05):
I think so.
Yeah.
right.
of the show.
You're kind of steering the ship here.
Yeah, if I had an ounce less of an amazing cast and crew of people to work with, I think Imight be off my rocker.
But I think we're in a really good place.
(01:27):
Every person that's working on this, there's not really a weak link.
There's not really anybody that I'm worried about.
Everybody's showing up and doing what they need to do and then some.
So yes, I am very tired.
But um that has more to do with making sure everything is gonna be good to go once we getinto tech week rather than, lead doesn't have his lines learned or we can't get our
(01:54):
blocking right.
It's nothing like that.
I think it's normal amounts.
I Yeah.
I was gonna say, feel like, you know, was in band, marching band growing up, and it alwayswas that last two weeks.
Nothing ever fully came together until like, actually, probably 48 hours beforehand, andthen it all felt right.
(02:17):
So, Kaylee, I wanna...
performance, right?
Yes.
on the
So, Kate, I want to start with you.
So for those who maybe are unfamiliar with the story, what is Fool for Love about?
So Fool for Love follows Eddie and May, who are, I guess, seeing one another for the firsttime in a while.
(02:39):
And I hesitate to call it a slice of life show, because I don't know who else is livingtheir life.
But it's kind of the story of all of the worst parts of love, I think.
And there's a piece of it, too, that follows
for lack of a better term, follows generational trauma and how the sins of our fathers orthe sins of our parents carries down into our love today.
(03:08):
So we get to kind of watch that play out in the hour that is full for love.
Okay.
And so Lucy, you're starring in the show.
You're one of the four cast members.
Who are you playing?
Who are you playing and how do they kind of factor into the narrative?
May, she's the only female of the bunch em and she is a very complicated woman.
(03:34):
um She has a lot of hurt, a lot of pain that she's keeping inside herself and she'sfinally starting to come up onto a little bit of potential independence when her former
lover
comes back into her life after a significant time apart.
So he is tracked down, found out where she is, and surprised her.
(03:55):
And instead of saying, no, you need to leave, she's going to entertain this again and kindof watching that play out.
But even in entertaining it one more time, this particular time is different.
ah So it's a very challenging role.
It is my favorite script.
It's my favorite play that I've ever read.
(04:17):
I've followed it for half my life or it's followed me, hard to say, a little bit of both.
And I've never had a chance to put this on in a very real way like this.
It's really exciting.
You you said that you kind of, it's been following you for a big chunk of your life.
What is it that kind of draws you to it that felt like maybe this was the time to tell thestory?
(04:39):
That's a really good question, Brian.
There's something about this that is very relatable to me, perhaps from my own set oftrauma.
um I think even before I knew what it was that was relatable, it just kind of grabbed meas a young woman.
(05:01):
And every few years of my life, since I was 20, I would read it again.
and read it again and find something a little more relatable or something more that Iwanted to explore about that particular character or the dynamic between her and the other
characters.
And every few years of my life, ah I feel like I have more to bring to it or more she hasto bring to me.
(05:22):
And it started to feel like, well, if I don't do this now, I don't want to see what mylife's gonna look like in four more years.
If I don't do it, it's almost become like a...
It's a must do at this point.
Right.
oh
And Eric, who are you in the narrative of the story?
(05:44):
So in this whole grand scheme of things, I'm the other guy that May is seeing right nowwho's kind of, his name's Martin.
And uh he's currently seeing May and he's on his way over to May's house, or May's placeas you guys will see in the show.
And uh from there the chaos ensues.
(06:05):
It sounds like it's like one of those things of you, mentioned Kelly, like slice of life,but maybe not slice of life, but this feels very real in the story that we're telling and
almost Lucy kind of how you mentioned too about like a returning like X from your life.
And that's kind of, it's a little bit different.
And that feels like that's a reality that so many people kind of fantasize about or dreamabout as they're thinking of uh love and finding love.
(06:32):
Yeah.
So you're kind of, your character, Lucy, you're kind of stuck in between maybe a rock anda hard place.
um What is that dynamic like?
And Eric, this one's also for you too.
What is that dynamic like to kind of be in this love triangle that uh maybe doesn't go theway everybody wants it to?
(06:53):
Well, I mean, think like Callie said, this is the worst parts of love.
And I think in some situations of love, you're the third person or the other person, theother guy, and it just doesn't work out.
you sometimes you have to feel that and go through that in order to like move forward.
(07:17):
And I think for people who do have trauma or do have
former lovers who may have been toxic and they jump back and forth between them.
I think this is a good representation of that specific kind of dynamic and love triangle.
And sometimes too it takes a third-party person coming into an old situation to expose it.
(07:42):
They're like a mirror um Exposing.
Oh, maybe this actually isn't healthy um But then you have to decide do I want to heal?
and grow beyond this or do I want to stick with what feels normal to me?
And so it really gives a lot of opportunity to explore what we do think love is.
(08:09):
So I don't think we actually talk about that very much.
um
in our society, in our communities, and even in our own families.
And it gives a lot of chances to ask questions about your current relationships, your pastrelationships.
It doesn't just have to be romantic ones either.
(08:29):
What is love?
Period.
It's a very important question.
mean, so one of my specialties in psychology is couples and family therapy.
So it's all about the relationships between people.
And you're right.
There's usually does take that third party or multiple parties, but a different party tokind of be that mirror of being like, is this safe?
Is this toxic?
(08:49):
What is this to you?
And what are you getting from it?
Uh-uh.
It sounds like your character kinda gets to experience that.
Oh, she does.
Oh, it is Martin.
Yeah.
to throw into that too, uh we've talked about the character of Martin so much.
(09:10):
And for a while there, Martin became my little brainchild of trying to figure, notbrainchild, but like trying to figure him out.
Because in the original script and in a lot of versions of this show, Martin has playedlike very simple.
He's described as simple and there is a propensity to kind of play him like a gentle.
(09:32):
gentle giant, like kind of a little bit dumb.
But when I was gifted this show to tackle, it was very important to me that Martin not bedumb because I don't think that he really truly is.
um And kind of my vision that I tasked Eric with bringing to life is that I wanted Martinto be
(09:56):
the witness to this toxic dynamic and give us a lens through the audience from a healthypoint of view.
um And so instead of Martin being simple or dumb, he's just kind of like taken aback bylike, this isn't normal.
And I've stepped into something that is like quite unsavory.
So, I mean, we spent a lot of time talking about that and Martin's motivations and how hecan be that
(10:26):
Tom support or as you mentioned that third viewpoint for May and that invitation for herto either sink or swim.
And you'll see in the end of the show whether May does sink or swim.
um But yeah, Martin to me is the most important character because though he has the leastamount of stage time, he is the thing that's different this time.
(10:54):
Right, we see the Eddie and May's dynamic play out for the first half of the show.
And then when Martin comes in, it is the different thing.
It is the change.
He's what's different on that day.
So, yeah, I could talk about Martin for a while.
HAHAHAHA
(11:14):
say what I love what you just said there though is that I grew up on Hallmark films.
So let's just preface that.
I grew up in a family where every Christmas we watch it every single day until Christmasis over.
And plenty of times the role that you kind of just described is almost viewed as like thevillain of the story.
Like they're stopping the couple that's being reunited from being together.
(11:37):
And it sounds like you're taking that trope and you're kind of like flipping it on itshead of being like.
This is actually the person who's getting to kind of view this and say, this isn't quitenormal.
This isn't okay to, this isn't the kind of love you should be accepting.
Right.
Martin's my favorite.
yeah, just to speak to that a little bit too, because we've had a lot of conversationsabout what Lucy mentioned of what love looks like.
(12:02):
And a lot of times in media, very often, this type of toxic, jealous fight for this persontype of love is glorified, put on a pedestal.
And a lot of people, and especially myself, are raised on like,
Twilight Edward Cullen watching you while you sleep is like the epitome of what loveshould be When in reality if I were to come to Lucy and be like, my new I woke up and my
(12:31):
new boyfriend was watching me while I was sleeping He snuck into my house.
She'd be like girl what like that's not That's not to be romanticized.
And so I
That in and of itself is the lens that I wanted to tackle this show with because likeLucy, it's been one that stuck with me for a while.
And when I first read it, I was like, it's terribly romantic.
(12:53):
And now uh a decade later, I'm like, this is actually hell.
This is actually a terrible situation.
So.
Yeah.
Getting to kind of grow up and have our experiences show us that these tales are notperfect.
I mean, I'm around the same age probably.
(13:13):
I grew up on Twilight as well.
This was exactly what you were told love was.
There is a toxicity that is inherent to love, and that's just to be accepted.
And it's not.
Disney stories we grew up on, like all the fairy tale stories.
It's like, eww.
I watched some of them now.
(13:34):
I will die on the hill that Gaston is not the villain of that story of Beauty and theBeast.
I will die on that hill.
So this is where we're coming up to.
for his future wife's father-in-law.
you
But this is where we come up to a hill because I was a Beauty and the Beast kid.
(13:54):
I wore out three VHSs.
I'm gonna go down swinging for that.
I'm just kidding.
It's my favorite.
It's my absolute favorite.
have a whole episode arguing if Gaston was the villain or not.
I mean, there's actually a book series written by Disney about the villains and howthey're not actually villainous.
And one of them is about him and how he's not nearly as villainous as people betray him tobe because the love that Belle and Beast have is not, I mean, Stockholm Syndrome.
(14:20):
Like, that is what we're dealing with here.
Yeah.
And these are the things that are just ingrained in you from a little one.
And, you know, even in many homes, we're not being modeled necessarily a version of ahealthy relational love dynamic.
um So many, so many people don't have that to look at.
So then you kind of gravitate even more to these stories that seem so romantic and sweet,and you don't know better to go, goodness, I shouldn't be feeling
(14:49):
sick or lost or confused all the time.
That's actually not healthy.
So I really, I love this type of work because Sam Shepard grew up in a really brokensituation.
And I think he spent most of his life trying to figure out who he was.
And I actually just watched a documentary with him.
(15:13):
He had said at 67 years old, he never quite figured out who he was.
He just knew he wasn't his father.
And he worked most of his life to not become his father.
But he never actually figured out who Sam was, which is kind of heartbreaking.
But the way that he writes, you can tell he's searching and exploring.
(15:40):
And he had said to something about he was never all that concerned with the truth.
He wasn't necessarily trying to retell his life experiences exactly, but trying to explorethem in a way that might discover a truth.
And I think that's what's so just incredible about this particular piece, too, where hereally dives into the male female dynamic.
(16:01):
Typically, it's more of the male male dynamic.
And the audience will have a lot of chances, I think, to figure out a truth in all of thisand a truth within themselves too, which that's what makes it so, I don't know,
captivating to me.
I can't let it go.
(16:22):
nuggets that really do, like when you can walk away and have that moment and reallyreflect, you know, like the idea that people think that they should have butterflies when
they meet somebody, but really that's a trauma response.
And that's us responding to traumatic bonds from our past.
And so like, if you can have this conversation in the show, even for a moment, people aregoing to walk away thinking.
(16:43):
Yes.
And I don't, oh, sorry.
I was just gonna say, exactly what you've just described is like how I wanted to go aboutthis show and how we've kind of approached it as like this is not to be glamorized and not
normal.
So, Kaylee, you kind of mentioned that you were gifted this show.
(17:05):
What was kind of your process to decide that you were going to direct it, like, and beinginvolved in that?
ah So Lucy is one of my dearest friends and she approached me in December and asked me todirect it.
So ah in that way she really gifted it to me um and it has been such an honor.
(17:26):
uh Like I mentioned Fool for Love has been really important to me throughout.
the course of my theater education and my life and work as an actor.
Sam Shepard's been so influential.
ah And so for Lucy, who though she's acting in it has truly been the spearhead of thiswhole thing.
(17:47):
Teatro De Vita is her ah film or theater company.
ah And this has been such a, she has been the engine behind all of this.
This is.
been such an honor to be the conductor um of the train in this analogy.
um So, yeah, I mean, to me it was a no-brainer to say yes.
(18:12):
um If Lucy thought I was uh good enough to direct, well, then I must be.
It's high praise when somebody is so passionate and close to a project to be like, you'rethe person to tell the story.
Like, you're the person to kind of direct the
Truly.
And she is.
(18:33):
She absolutely is.
uh I as one of our our teachers and mentors reminded us not too long ago not a lot ofwomen direct Sam Shepard and especially not this which is interesting because it does
really include a very strong feminine voice.
(18:53):
uh And it just.
hit me like a ton of bricks one day.
Oh, I know who needs to take this from me.
And it's Callie.
I've known her for eight years and I watch her work as an actor.
And she's always been such a bold, strong, intelligent actor.
(19:17):
And she is also a beautiful writer and she directs for film.
it's just I just knew.
I could trust her fully with directing all of us, but also with directing me.
uh And it's just been beautiful to have her very strong feminine perspective as wellthroughout the whole process.
(19:39):
It's going to be a little different than what you usually get, I think, from this storybecause of the lens that she's chosen to view this through, which I think is a much more
honest lens.
For a story that includes a little bit of fable, there is a lot of honesty in the way thatshe has approached this.
It's always so awesome when you can see a show, especially as an audience member, see ashow that has a different light shine on to it, know, like a different perspective that's
(20:07):
going to open up a whole different, you know, window to the story.
So Eric, Kaylee mentioned about Martin's motivations and I'm kind of wondering from yourperspective, what is your character's motivations throughout this story?
Well, I think and like going back to this whole theme of, you know, toxic love, I thinkMartin genuinely is in love with May and wants to see, uh you know, wants what's best for
(20:33):
her and wants to, you know, be with her.
And I think um oftentimes you're you have to see a situation from an outsider's point ofview in order to make it make sense.
And I think Martin's
ah that for the audience.
think he's that for May.
ah And he's also that for myself as an actor too.
(20:56):
He's a window for the audience to kind of take this whole situation in and do what theywill with it.
And I think it leaves it pretty open-ended in terms of like how you would respond tosomething, how you feel about something, and what it means to you.
beautiful answer.
Lucy, what is May's motivation?
Like, again, she kind of feels like she's stuck in between toxic and this reflection.
(21:21):
But like, what is her motivation through Fool for Love?
I think that may really is finally starting to look at herself in a new light.
I think that she really is ready in many aspects to pursue better than she'd been given upuntil this point in her life.
(21:48):
And
She does love Eddie.
She loves their dynamic to one extent and hates it to another.
And so I think she really is pulled between a lot of love and hate, a lot of passion andrepulsion.
um But I think some of the confusion is finally starting to lift for her.
(22:10):
And she does have really hard decisions to make.
But I think overall, her trajectory
is potentially going to be more positive.
it's hard to choose better when you don't really know what that means.
Yes, I have a lot of empathy for her um being in the position that she's in.
(22:33):
you have be having this be such like a passion project.
Is there a challenge to like being so close to that and then having to like take a stepback and step into it in a different direction or like a different way?
Yes and no.
I really have been extremely blessed by the group of people that has come together forthis.
um And I have found that in my life when I'm really supposed to do something artistically,it does kind of fall into place just as it should.
(23:04):
And this really fell into place.
So I have felt very comfortable, like not.
Directing it.
I never wanted to direct it Ever so it's been really nice to just kind of sit back and bebeautifully directed and I can trust Callie so much and I trust everybody I think the only
time I feel a little Anxed is that I just really want to make sure It's exactly what SamShepard deserves.
(23:31):
I have just so much love for him as an artist and he's gifted me so much in my life
And I really, think that it is.
I think it is going to be something that he would, if he was alive, he would go, yeah,kids, that's good.
That was good, kids.
I hope so.
Those are the things I think about at night.
was that good enough?
(23:54):
You
what I think about it, Nate.
Hahaha!
So, Kaylee, for you, what is kind of your approach to directing a show such as this?
Or like, how do you get your vision kind of from your mind to the stage?
Do you have a specific way you do that?
So that's really interesting that you asked that question, because I don't know.
(24:14):
Perfect.
am very much more of a feel person than I am a visualized person.
And that was, I think, my biggest fear around stepping back into directing, because it hasbeen quite a while since I have.
um But I trusted in myself and I trusted in my actors.
And so my approach to this is I I try to be a very collaborative director.
(24:40):
um I want to know your ideas.
I want to know why you're thinking that way and you can with the right amount ofjustification You can convince me of just about anything so my My approach when looking at
scenes is kind of just like The the four actors that we have chosen um Lucy and Ken I'veworked with for years Eric and I have been in class together for about a year and then our
(25:08):
Eddie, who was played by Robbie Mullinger, I had seen in a couple shows before.
So I knew what I was dealing with.
It wasn't like I was coming into this with like, I've only seen your audition tape.
So I very much like put my trust in it.
I kind of, I think I said at the beginning of our rehearsal process, I was like, I trustyou guys, do what you need to do.
(25:29):
And I'm going to direct you just to make sure we don't look stupid.
uh And so I'm very much like.
I think my uh catchphrase on this is, you know, if it feels right to you or I invite youto think about it this way and just how it feels because so much of this is play.
(25:49):
I, every single one of our actors came in and particularly Lucy, especially since you Lucyhave been living with this for so long, is I feel like everybody came into this with the
perfect intentions.
And so I think my job as a director is like, your intentions are great, your motivationsare great, but what if we try to add anger here instead of sadness?
(26:11):
What does that feel like?
And can we blend the two emotions?
um you know, like with Martin too, specifically Martin, it's like, you can play himsimple.
think we've had this discussion too of like three pages of Martin's lines.
All he says is, oh
(26:34):
But every single one is different and every single one has this immense thought processthat Eric is showing us happen through Martin.
So it's like, again, you can justify just about anything to me with some good thoughtprocesses.
I'm not gonna hate it.
The only thing that we are running into recently is a blocking choice that our actor Kenwould like to make and we're like, does this work with tech?
(27:00):
Does this work with our lights?
What are we?
How are we doing this here?
But yeah, I think I've rambled on that question a bit, but I try to be collaborative, Ithink.
Anyway, very much so.
Even today, you asked me, I love when you ask me questions because it does make me thinkabout why am I doing this?
(27:22):
And you asked me a question today, like, there a reason that you're doing that?
And to be honest, there wasn't.
And I wasn't even fully aware that I was doing it.
So it was like, oh, huh, no.
Thank you.
Hahaha!
I need to know why I'm doing it or maybe I don't need to do it, you know, so...
(27:47):
Perhaps.
But I love the collaboration from everybody.
It's just been really beautiful.
Eric and Lucy, I have a question for you two.
What is the process of bringing your character then to life on stage?
Like, how do you kind of, I guess Lucy, you've been living with this forever.
So I'm gonna let Eric answer this one first.
ah
(28:08):
You know, for me, uh it's been a while since I've done theater.
uh And for me, I relied very heavily on Callie's direction and asking those smart,creative questions.
Like, I invite you to do this.
I want you to think about that.
Because when my interpretation of Martin at the beginning of this was a
(28:33):
extremely different than what Callie had envisioned.
ah I had probably done a little too much research on the character and ah kind of leanedmore into the more traditional ways that you play Martin.
ah So this has been very ah therapeutic for me as well in terms of uh witnessing uhtoxicity right in front of you at such a high standard and high level of emotion.
(29:03):
And um yeah, I think for me, it's just kind of getting lost in this whole process.
And I relied a lot on Callie, very much on Lucy, Ken, and Robbie to do what they do.
otherwise, it's just jokes with me.
You know what I mean?
So you have to really be able to draw me in, and they really did a really good job.
(29:23):
Lucy, how about for you?
there, well, this is an interesting character because there is a part of me that feelslike she's just, she is in me.
but there are parts that I'm just discovering every day, which is really beautiful.
I'm an all in actor.
(29:46):
If I'm not all in, I'm out.
And this has required all of.
So it's and it's been really beautiful like I'm exhausted Like emotionally I am a littlebit exhausted, but I'm also finding myself being refreshed by her and being refreshed by
(30:09):
you know Just being with such a beautiful group of people and they're all just sowonderfully safe and kind And I've had a lot of space to be super vulnerable and raw
And I do, I love method acting.
I'm a method actor, I'll be honest.
So there's a lot of real life fuel behind May for me.
(30:32):
So are we actually talking to me right now?
I'm just kidding.
discussion someday about the realities of method.
I would love it.
could talk about method.
Nausium.
Callie knows that.
You can come back anytime and talk about anything you want.
ah
(30:54):
Let's do it.
So this is a question for all of you, but I'm gonna start with Callie.
So with this show focusing so much on the different forms of love and what love kind ofis, do you feel like your thoughts and relationship with love and romance have changed
from working on the Sam Shepard play?
That's a great question.
in here.
(31:18):
I don't think that Sam Shepard has changed my mind because of this show.
I think Sam Shepard did a great job of tricking me before.
Like I said, when I first read this, I was like, this is terribly romantic.
May has a line about how they would get desperately sick if they weren't together.
uh Or violently sick if they weren't together and like oh gosh, that's so terriblyromantic But as you said that's not actually romantic.
(31:46):
That's just a trauma response Through my own life experiences and through my ownexperiences uh with toxic love I think that if anything at the other side of this
rehearsal process and on the other side of this show I think I will be
(32:07):
even more resolute, that this is not what it should be.
And even if I were to rewind the clock and redo this whole rehearsal process and makeEddie the male lead who he has some redeeming qualities, but I do think at the end of the
(32:28):
day, I mean, we haven't talked much about Eddie, but I do think at the end of the day,Eddie is the like main aggressor and not to
like not to beat around any bush.
Eddie, think is an abuser.
If even if I were to rewind the clock, start this rehearsal process over again and playEddie the most innocent that one could, the most genuine, like not lying, not
(32:54):
manipulating, not showing off.
If we were to go back and play the root of Eddie as just like try to twist it and makeEddie the victim, still don't think we could do that with the material.
Like I don't think.
Agreed.
what Sam Shepard has given us.
I don't know though.
Now I kinda wanna try, but not this time around.
(33:15):
don't know.
Maybe next time.
Yeah.
Lucy, how about for you?
You've had, again, this long relationship with it.
Has your idea of love and romance changed from your relationship with this play?
very much so.
And it's changed over the years.
(33:36):
And I'm still learning so much about what love is and what it isn't.
I think I've got a much better grasp on what it isn't at 37 years old than I did when Iwas 20, when I first read this.
I felt the same way as Callie.
I'm like, this is just so, I want somebody to whip me around and.
(33:57):
oh
excuse me and make me sick and I encountered plenty of that in my life.
um But I think what I'm learning through this process of rehearsing and bringing this tolife with these people is the importance of a calm nervous system.
(34:17):
And that's something I've never really quite had in my life or understood as valuable.
But this is really...
been an opportunity to feel calm even in the midst of telling this radically wild story.
And I don't think Sam Shepard had any idea he was writing something that was going tospark this type of discussion.
(34:42):
um But that's also the mark of great work too.
Eric, how about for you?
think the name of the show says it all, right?
Fool for Love.
And I think that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
And if you read between the lines, it is, uh you're foolish if this is the kind of lovethat you are continuously going back to.
(35:11):
And I think, again, going back to Martin's eyes as the lenses of the audience, I think youget an understanding that love makes you do
crazy things.
ah It doesn't always make sense.
Sometimes you do things that you would look back on and say, I can't believe I did that.
Or looking forward, you would say, I would never do that in a million years and you stilldo it.
(35:34):
And again, I think just like, like I said, the title says it all.
You are a fool for love, no matter how you look at it, whether you're in love, out oflove, or falling in love with somebody that you shouldn't be somebody that you should.
kind of foolish sometimes and i think that this show shows the good the bad and the uglyof that
(35:55):
With that message you feel at all that that could be that could feel like almost it'snihilistic the right word I like you know what mean just kind of like if everybody's a
fool.
What's the point of doing this?
No, because I think there's an underlying, but there's also that silver lining within it,I think too, that, you know, with all that being said, love doing all those negative toxic
(36:16):
things, it's so genuine and so pure and so beautiful that once you actually do findsomebody who you do love or loves you back, that all of that goes away.
And then again, you're just a fool for that kind of love and you'll do anything to keepit.
So again.
the title I think says it all.
(36:36):
Good, bad and ugly.
Yeah, and well I and I agree with everything that you just said and I will say though Iread this year a college student's like almost thesis regarding this play and they chose
to look at it from the lens of fool for love with fool being a verb.
(36:57):
Okay.
Meaning not only can you be foolish, but you are doing fooling You are doing the foolingfor love and that was really interesting because I I truly hadn't thought of it through
that lens before And but you'll you see a lot of that too in this story and you see it inlife.
(37:18):
You see people putting on all kinds of masks
and playing all kinds of roles to attract someone or to try to get someone to fall in lovewith them or keep them in love with them.
So there is a significant amount of fooling.
I think that goes on as well as being a fool and feeling foolish.
(37:38):
And so it really is a, it's a, it's a well-rounded exploration of the dynamics of theserelationships and how do we get lost in them?
But how do you, you can also then be found in them.
And I think that is the silver lining too.
You can be found in them.
You can be healed in them as well as being a complete absolute idiot.
(38:01):
oh
that line too then with that thesis, not only could you fool other people into it, but youcould also be fooling yourself into, this what I want?
Is this a love I should accept?
And I think people do that every day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
like holding back right there.
Well, I mean, I do that I think, you know, Lucy mentioned earlier about our mentor sayingto us, you know, not very many women pick up Sam Shepard and particularly full for love,
(38:30):
which is insane to me because I again, my lens, I can't unsee the story about May, likethis story centers around May.
um And while like I said, it mentions
generational trauma and sins of our fathers and how does that like trickle down into whatwe're dealing with today?
(38:50):
There's a uh pretty heavy emphasis on father and son in this show.
um It does still center around May.
You know, it's her date night.
It's Eddie coming back to her.
It's at any given moment, May is holding the reins of control until she gives them away,which she does over and over and over again.
(39:14):
And if I had to, I think maybe boil this down, like one character trait, one thing, thisis May's struggle to regain her power.
Like that is what this show is about, is May trying to regain her struggle against her ex,Eddie.
And again, we'll figure out whether or not she does at the end of the show.
(39:35):
um But yeah, I don't know.
It's just, I don't know.
I'm rambling again, but I just, it is very-
maybe.
You know, you had mentioned that we didn't talk a lot about Eddie, but it does.
He.
It's interesting because this conversation, feels like.
The conversation was like for May's story, who is the villain in the way?
(39:57):
Is it Eddie is is May also kind of stopping her own story from being true here?
Are they both kind of at fault?
And uh there's some interesting dynamics that could be there with this this ex-boyfriendthat kind of rolls back into the picture.
Sure, and I definitely think in every relationship dynamic, it definitely takes two totango.
It does.
um And even, I would never want to sound victim blaming.
(40:25):
uh However, there is the statistic that women who are abused will return to their abuserupwards of eight times before they can finally sever the tie.
And there are so many times when,
Like you hear that and you're like, why?
I just want to grab her and shake her and why?
You know, but that's not how it works and it does happen.
(40:47):
So where am I going with this?
um Yes, I do think that there are instances in which May can be the aggressor and May doesplay into the dynamic.
um But what's different about Fool for Love?
versus every other day of their lives.
Cause that's something that you ask yourself as an actor and particularly as a directorall the time whenever you approach a scene is like, what's different about today?
(41:11):
What makes this instance stand out in a story of their back and forth love that spans, Imean, we can argue three decades that their love story spans.
What makes this particular instance different is I think, and correct me if I'm wrong,Lucy.
But I think and I feel that this is the first time in 30 years that May has tried to gether power back.
(41:34):
Absolutely.
That's totally the difference.
uh Huge, huge.
And I think too, I think Eddie and May have an extremely codependent bond too.
They have trauma bond and they're extremely codependent with one another.
(41:56):
And you know, Eddie definitely
can come off as more of the aggressor.
But I also want to just hype Robbie for a minute because he's not here.
But he is playing this with so much humanity um that I mean, I think.
I think audiences are gonna like him.
(42:17):
I really think they're going to feel a certain type of way for him.
I think you're gonna see why May is still entertaining this shit show, pardon me.
ah But I do think that he is coming at it from a really pure lens.
I think the way Robbie is playing it, I don't think his intent is to ever hurt her, eventhough he does hurt her.
(42:41):
And I don't think that he's...
I think he is a man that has yet to step into any real self-awareness, whereas May isstepping into awareness now.
And what will she do with that awareness?
We don't quite know.
But I think that it is a really toxic codependent dance that they do well and that they'vewitnessed the generations before them in their lives dance.
(43:12):
That's the devil you know.
The devil you know is always more comfortable.
You know, you mentioned about that playing him very charming, but you said you said theword trauma bonding, which I learned about very early on.
when I started seeing clients as like an intern and that was one of the first cases Ireally worked with.
And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong here.
And my supervisor said, it's almost impossible to break a trauma bond until one of themwants to break that bond.
(43:37):
And it's constantly that cycle.
And it's the abusive cycle of one, you come back because that person is charming and youremember the good things about them.
And then you fall into that cycle of.
attacker, pursuer, which sounds scary, but those are not exactly what those words mean.
And then you get swept back up into that until you realize you stand back when thedestruction is done.
You're like, what did I just do again?
Yes, yes.
And Callie had said something in rehearsal at one point because there is a line about,know, Eddie says something to Mae, like, you will never replace me.
(44:06):
And you know it.
And like, what does that mean?
Like, what is the gravity of a statement like that?
And.
even though you may know on one hand this thing that we have is not good for me and itharms me, but I also, I don't want to lose my place.
I don't want to lose my place in your life either.
(44:28):
Like I still want to be so important to you.
You know, so it really is just such an interesting dynamic and charming is I'm repeatingthis phrase to myself currently.
oh
harm will cause me harm.
This is the same charm a little differently.
(44:51):
um Or as my grandma always would say, you know, that charm is just a code for bullshit.
You
And that's true too, but charm will cause you harm.
But we place a lot of emphasis on charm in our society as though it's just the utmost ofcompliments um to be a charming person.
(45:12):
And I suppose there's nothing wrong with charm on the surface, but how do you use it?
m
And part of that is self-esteem.
What is the self-esteem of the person behind the charm?
Like, do they have a strong self-esteem or are they lacking in using that as amanipulation tactic?
Right.
Yeah.
Totally.
So what are we hoping audiences take away from this production of Fool for Love?
(45:35):
I know we've kind of covered it all, but we gotta give the people one last time to kind ofknow.
So, Kayleigh, I'm gonna start with you.
What are you hoping audiences take away?
uh Well, if nothing else, I hope they take away uh what a phenomenal group of actors thisis um Truly I couldn't have asked for a better cast um Lucy's the most dynamic actor I've
(46:00):
ever watched Like Robert Downey Jr.
Get out of here Meryl Streep.
Who is she?
Lucy Gillespie is the one and Ken and Robbie and Eric create a
beautiful, like all four of you guys create such a beautiful ensemble with one anotherthat like if I can do, if nothing else comes from this play, I want the audience members
(46:25):
to slap their knees and be like, well, that was some good acting.
I don't know what the heck just happened there, but they were all really in it.
know?
Yes.
But content wise, we talked about this a little bit in rehearsal yesterday and today isthat like,
This is a show that I think people will be talking about for a while.
It really is one that gets under your skin, because there are so many layers here.
(46:49):
And if you don't have questions and you don't have um things to discuss about it, I thinkit confronted you too hard.
Like I think it held a mirror up to you too much, um is my professional opinion.
But yeah, I hope this will create discussion around what love, what...
(47:11):
what good love feels like.
um And I hope people watch this and say, I don't want that.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
beautiful answer.
Eric, I'm sorry you have to follow that.
Hahaha
How do you do that?
uh I think the one thing that I'm going to want people to take out of this is a visualrepresentation of what not to do when you're in love.
(47:43):
What not to do, uh how a relationship should not be.
And I think that we all...
fall victim to being in relationships that we shouldn't be in.
And if at any point that on the ride home, any audience members is thinking, I shouldn'tbe with this person who's driving home next to me, I think we get our uh job, if they're
(48:07):
not in a very healthy relationship, that is.
ah But I do want the audience to recognize uh that not all love is good love.
Lucy, about for you?
um Just to kind of say some of the same, but I hope that audiences do have a lot ofquestions.
(48:29):
I hope they have more questions than answers, honestly.
I hope they have more questions for themselves.
But I also hope that, you know, it's a healing experience to a certain extent because somany of us, like Eric said, we've been in something we knew we shouldn't have, or we may
still be.
And I hope people feel a little less alone when they watch it.
(48:51):
I hope they feel a little more seen themselves and a little more empowered maybe to do alittle bit more of a deep dive into, okay, well, why am I in this or why did I choose
that?
And I always like hope at the end of anything, you know, and I think that there is thepotential for a lot of hope.
(49:15):
with this and a lot of healing to happen.
And I also hope that people just have a good time because as dark as this story is, thereare parts of it that are actually really funny.
that is also the brilliance of Sam Shepard, but that's also mimics a life.
Like on some of the worst days of my life, I've still laughed a little.
(49:37):
And there is that.
There's the opportunity to laugh.
And this is a really beautiful.
Lucy, will you sign us off and just tell us where people can watch Fool for Love?
Tell us about your theater company here and when it's
My theater is a professional acting troupe.
It's called Teatro da Vida, which is Italian.
(49:59):
It means theater of life.
And I named it for the Italian women who raised me.
So my grandmother is Vida.
Her name means life.
And my Italian mother is the love of my life and has gifted me this insane desire to keeppursuing art and letting it chase me.
(50:21):
So that is who it's named for.
And we will we weave in and out of spaces, so I don't have a set home for a theater But Itry to I'm trying to bring theater into more spaces within communities So we run at enter
stage right the Citadel stage.
They've been a lovely host for us June 6 7th and 8th in the 6th and 7th or Friday Saturdaythe shows at 7 p.m.
(50:51):
And Sunday at 2 p.m
And the show will be about 65, 70 minutes without a break.
And then we'll give you a little break, but we're going to have talk backs after each.
So it'll give the audience a chance to ask some questions of the artists.
And that's going to be just as important as the show to be able to have that conversation.
I'm so excited for it.
I hope people have a lot of questions.
(51:13):
Kelly, Eric, Lucy, thank you so much for your time.
greatly appreciate it.
And we're so excited for people to go and see the show.
Thank you.
you so much, Brian.
So nice to meet you.
Yes.
meet you.
Thank you so much, you three, for taking time out of your schedule.
um How is it going?
Fantastic, right?
It's going great.
It is.
It's just getting down to the, you know, the last two weeks before we open.
just lots of last minute little details and making sure everything's ready.
(00:24):
So I'm not sleeping much.
What a sleep in the last two weeks, right?
Yeah, I don't think any of us are.
Eric, what's kind of that like last two weeks?
I'm not an actor, so I've never performed before.
So what is that kind of that last two weeks, that last push for like for you?
Well, I think it's different for everybody.
(00:45):
me, it's a lot of coming down to the wire.
also part, I'm also doing the set.
So putting the finishing touches on that, it's coming down to the wire and moving all ofthat into the theater when we do that.
So yeah, it's a little bit of pressure, but it's welcome pressure.
And I think we're all handling it pretty well, right?
(01:05):
I think so.
Yeah.
right.
of the show.
You're kind of steering the ship here.
Yeah, if I had an ounce less of an amazing cast and crew of people to work with, I think Imight be off my rocker.
But I think we're in a really good place.
(01:27):
Every person that's working on this, there's not really a weak link.
There's not really anybody that I'm worried about.
Everybody's showing up and doing what they need to do and then some.
So yes, I am very tired.
But um that has more to do with making sure everything is gonna be good to go once we getinto tech week rather than, lead doesn't have his lines learned or we can't get our
(01:54):
blocking right.
It's nothing like that.
I think it's normal amounts.
I Yeah.
I was gonna say, feel like, you know, was in band, marching band growing up, and it alwayswas that last two weeks.
Nothing ever fully came together until like, actually, probably 48 hours beforehand, andthen it all felt right.
(02:17):
So, Kaylee, I wanna...
performance, right?
Yes.
on the
So, Kate, I want to start with you.
So for those who maybe are unfamiliar with the story, what is Fool for Love about?
So Fool for Love follows Eddie and May, who are, I guess, seeing one another for the firsttime in a while.
(02:39):
And I hesitate to call it a slice of life show, because I don't know who else is livingtheir life.
But it's kind of the story of all of the worst parts of love, I think.
And there's a piece of it, too, that follows
for lack of a better term, follows generational trauma and how the sins of our fathers orthe sins of our parents carries down into our love today.
(03:08):
So we get to kind of watch that play out in the hour that is full for love.
Okay.
And so Lucy, you're starring in the show.
You're one of the four cast members.
Who are you playing?
Who are you playing and how do they kind of factor into the narrative?
May, she's the only female of the bunch em and she is a very complicated woman.
(03:34):
um She has a lot of hurt, a lot of pain that she's keeping inside herself and she'sfinally starting to come up onto a little bit of potential independence when her former
lover
comes back into her life after a significant time apart.
So he is tracked down, found out where she is, and surprised her.
(03:55):
And instead of saying, no, you need to leave, she's going to entertain this again and kindof watching that play out.
But even in entertaining it one more time, this particular time is different.
ah So it's a very challenging role.
It is my favorite script.
It's my favorite play that I've ever read.
(04:17):
I've followed it for half my life or it's followed me, hard to say, a little bit of both.
And I've never had a chance to put this on in a very real way like this.
It's really exciting.
You you said that you kind of, it's been following you for a big chunk of your life.
What is it that kind of draws you to it that felt like maybe this was the time to tell thestory?
(04:39):
That's a really good question, Brian.
There's something about this that is very relatable to me, perhaps from my own set oftrauma.
um I think even before I knew what it was that was relatable, it just kind of grabbed meas a young woman.
(05:01):
And every few years of my life, since I was 20, I would read it again.
and read it again and find something a little more relatable or something more that Iwanted to explore about that particular character or the dynamic between her and the other
characters.
And every few years of my life, ah I feel like I have more to bring to it or more she hasto bring to me.
(05:22):
And it started to feel like, well, if I don't do this now, I don't want to see what mylife's gonna look like in four more years.
If I don't do it, it's almost become like a...
It's a must do at this point.
Right.
oh
And Eric, who are you in the narrative of the story?
(05:44):
So in this whole grand scheme of things, I'm the other guy that May is seeing right nowwho's kind of, his name's Martin.
And uh he's currently seeing May and he's on his way over to May's house, or May's placeas you guys will see in the show.
And uh from there the chaos ensues.
(06:05):
It sounds like it's like one of those things of you, mentioned Kelly, like slice of life,but maybe not slice of life, but this feels very real in the story that we're telling and
almost Lucy kind of how you mentioned too about like a returning like X from your life.
And that's kind of, it's a little bit different.
And that feels like that's a reality that so many people kind of fantasize about or dreamabout as they're thinking of uh love and finding love.
(06:32):
Yeah.
So you're kind of, your character, Lucy, you're kind of stuck in between maybe a rock anda hard place.
um What is that dynamic like?
And Eric, this one's also for you too.
What is that dynamic like to kind of be in this love triangle that uh maybe doesn't go theway everybody wants it to?
(06:53):
Well, I mean, think like Callie said, this is the worst parts of love.
And I think in some situations of love, you're the third person or the other person, theother guy, and it just doesn't work out.
you sometimes you have to feel that and go through that in order to like move forward.
(07:17):
And I think for people who do have trauma or do have
former lovers who may have been toxic and they jump back and forth between them.
I think this is a good representation of that specific kind of dynamic and love triangle.
And sometimes too it takes a third-party person coming into an old situation to expose it.
(07:42):
They're like a mirror um Exposing.
Oh, maybe this actually isn't healthy um But then you have to decide do I want to heal?
and grow beyond this or do I want to stick with what feels normal to me?
And so it really gives a lot of opportunity to explore what we do think love is.
(08:09):
So I don't think we actually talk about that very much.
um
in our society, in our communities, and even in our own families.
And it gives a lot of chances to ask questions about your current relationships, your pastrelationships.
It doesn't just have to be romantic ones either.
(08:29):
What is love?
Period.
It's a very important question.
mean, so one of my specialties in psychology is couples and family therapy.
So it's all about the relationships between people.
And you're right.
There's usually does take that third party or multiple parties, but a different party tokind of be that mirror of being like, is this safe?
Is this toxic?
(08:49):
What is this to you?
And what are you getting from it?
Uh-uh.
It sounds like your character kinda gets to experience that.
Oh, she does.
Oh, it is Martin.
Yeah.
to throw into that too, uh we've talked about the character of Martin so much.
(09:10):
And for a while there, Martin became my little brainchild of trying to figure, notbrainchild, but like trying to figure him out.
Because in the original script and in a lot of versions of this show, Martin has playedlike very simple.
He's described as simple and there is a propensity to kind of play him like a gentle.
(09:32):
gentle giant, like kind of a little bit dumb.
But when I was gifted this show to tackle, it was very important to me that Martin not bedumb because I don't think that he really truly is.
um And kind of my vision that I tasked Eric with bringing to life is that I wanted Martinto be
(09:56):
the witness to this toxic dynamic and give us a lens through the audience from a healthypoint of view.
um And so instead of Martin being simple or dumb, he's just kind of like taken aback bylike, this isn't normal.
And I've stepped into something that is like quite unsavory.
So, I mean, we spent a lot of time talking about that and Martin's motivations and how hecan be that
(10:26):
Tom support or as you mentioned that third viewpoint for May and that invitation for herto either sink or swim.
And you'll see in the end of the show whether May does sink or swim.
um But yeah, Martin to me is the most important character because though he has the leastamount of stage time, he is the thing that's different this time.
(10:54):
Right, we see the Eddie and May's dynamic play out for the first half of the show.
And then when Martin comes in, it is the different thing.
It is the change.
He's what's different on that day.
So, yeah, I could talk about Martin for a while.
HAHAHAHA
(11:14):
say what I love what you just said there though is that I grew up on Hallmark films.
So let's just preface that.
I grew up in a family where every Christmas we watch it every single day until Christmasis over.
And plenty of times the role that you kind of just described is almost viewed as like thevillain of the story.
Like they're stopping the couple that's being reunited from being together.
(11:37):
And it sounds like you're taking that trope and you're kind of like flipping it on itshead of being like.
This is actually the person who's getting to kind of view this and say, this isn't quitenormal.
This isn't okay to, this isn't the kind of love you should be accepting.
Right.
Martin's my favorite.
yeah, just to speak to that a little bit too, because we've had a lot of conversationsabout what Lucy mentioned of what love looks like.
(12:02):
And a lot of times in media, very often, this type of toxic, jealous fight for this persontype of love is glorified, put on a pedestal.
And a lot of people, and especially myself, are raised on like,
Twilight Edward Cullen watching you while you sleep is like the epitome of what loveshould be When in reality if I were to come to Lucy and be like, my new I woke up and my
(12:31):
new boyfriend was watching me while I was sleeping He snuck into my house.
She'd be like girl what like that's not That's not to be romanticized.
And so I
That in and of itself is the lens that I wanted to tackle this show with because likeLucy, it's been one that stuck with me for a while.
And when I first read it, I was like, it's terribly romantic.
(12:53):
And now uh a decade later, I'm like, this is actually hell.
This is actually a terrible situation.
So.
Yeah.
Getting to kind of grow up and have our experiences show us that these tales are notperfect.
I mean, I'm around the same age probably.
(13:13):
I grew up on Twilight as well.
This was exactly what you were told love was.
There is a toxicity that is inherent to love, and that's just to be accepted.
And it's not.
Disney stories we grew up on, like all the fairy tale stories.
It's like, eww.
I watched some of them now.
(13:34):
I will die on the hill that Gaston is not the villain of that story of Beauty and theBeast.
I will die on that hill.
So this is where we're coming up to.
for his future wife's father-in-law.
you
But this is where we come up to a hill because I was a Beauty and the Beast kid.
(13:54):
I wore out three VHSs.
I'm gonna go down swinging for that.
I'm just kidding.
It's my favorite.
It's my absolute favorite.
have a whole episode arguing if Gaston was the villain or not.
I mean, there's actually a book series written by Disney about the villains and howthey're not actually villainous.
And one of them is about him and how he's not nearly as villainous as people betray him tobe because the love that Belle and Beast have is not, I mean, Stockholm Syndrome.
(14:20):
Like, that is what we're dealing with here.
Yeah.
And these are the things that are just ingrained in you from a little one.
And, you know, even in many homes, we're not being modeled necessarily a version of ahealthy relational love dynamic.
um So many, so many people don't have that to look at.
So then you kind of gravitate even more to these stories that seem so romantic and sweet,and you don't know better to go, goodness, I shouldn't be feeling
(14:49):
sick or lost or confused all the time.
That's actually not healthy.
So I really, I love this type of work because Sam Shepard grew up in a really brokensituation.
And I think he spent most of his life trying to figure out who he was.
And I actually just watched a documentary with him.
(15:13):
He had said at 67 years old, he never quite figured out who he was.
He just knew he wasn't his father.
And he worked most of his life to not become his father.
But he never actually figured out who Sam was, which is kind of heartbreaking.
But the way that he writes, you can tell he's searching and exploring.
(15:40):
And he had said to something about he was never all that concerned with the truth.
He wasn't necessarily trying to retell his life experiences exactly, but trying to explorethem in a way that might discover a truth.
And I think that's what's so just incredible about this particular piece, too, where hereally dives into the male female dynamic.
(16:01):
Typically, it's more of the male male dynamic.
And the audience will have a lot of chances, I think, to figure out a truth in all of thisand a truth within themselves too, which that's what makes it so, I don't know,
captivating to me.
I can't let it go.
(16:22):
nuggets that really do, like when you can walk away and have that moment and reallyreflect, you know, like the idea that people think that they should have butterflies when
they meet somebody, but really that's a trauma response.
And that's us responding to traumatic bonds from our past.
And so like, if you can have this conversation in the show, even for a moment, people aregoing to walk away thinking.
(16:43):
Yes.
And I don't, oh, sorry.
I was just gonna say, exactly what you've just described is like how I wanted to go aboutthis show and how we've kind of approached it as like this is not to be glamorized and not
normal.
So, Kaylee, you kind of mentioned that you were gifted this show.
(17:05):
What was kind of your process to decide that you were going to direct it, like, and beinginvolved in that?
ah So Lucy is one of my dearest friends and she approached me in December and asked me todirect it.
So ah in that way she really gifted it to me um and it has been such an honor.
(17:26):
uh Like I mentioned Fool for Love has been really important to me throughout.
the course of my theater education and my life and work as an actor.
Sam Shepard's been so influential.
ah And so for Lucy, who though she's acting in it has truly been the spearhead of thiswhole thing.
(17:47):
Teatro De Vita is her ah film or theater company.
ah And this has been such a, she has been the engine behind all of this.
This is.
been such an honor to be the conductor um of the train in this analogy.
um So, yeah, I mean, to me it was a no-brainer to say yes.
(18:12):
um If Lucy thought I was uh good enough to direct, well, then I must be.
It's high praise when somebody is so passionate and close to a project to be like, you'rethe person to tell the story.
Like, you're the person to kind of direct the
Truly.
And she is.
(18:33):
She absolutely is.
uh I as one of our our teachers and mentors reminded us not too long ago not a lot ofwomen direct Sam Shepard and especially not this which is interesting because it does
really include a very strong feminine voice.
(18:53):
uh And it just.
hit me like a ton of bricks one day.
Oh, I know who needs to take this from me.
And it's Callie.
I've known her for eight years and I watch her work as an actor.
And she's always been such a bold, strong, intelligent actor.
(19:17):
And she is also a beautiful writer and she directs for film.
it's just I just knew.
I could trust her fully with directing all of us, but also with directing me.
uh And it's just been beautiful to have her very strong feminine perspective as wellthroughout the whole process.
(19:39):
It's going to be a little different than what you usually get, I think, from this storybecause of the lens that she's chosen to view this through, which I think is a much more
honest lens.
For a story that includes a little bit of fable, there is a lot of honesty in the way thatshe has approached this.
It's always so awesome when you can see a show, especially as an audience member, see ashow that has a different light shine on to it, know, like a different perspective that's
(20:07):
going to open up a whole different, you know, window to the story.
So Eric, Kaylee mentioned about Martin's motivations and I'm kind of wondering from yourperspective, what is your character's motivations throughout this story?
Well, I think and like going back to this whole theme of, you know, toxic love, I thinkMartin genuinely is in love with May and wants to see, uh you know, wants what's best for
(20:33):
her and wants to, you know, be with her.
And I think um oftentimes you're you have to see a situation from an outsider's point ofview in order to make it make sense.
And I think Martin's
ah that for the audience.
think he's that for May.
ah And he's also that for myself as an actor too.
(20:56):
He's a window for the audience to kind of take this whole situation in and do what theywill with it.
And I think it leaves it pretty open-ended in terms of like how you would respond tosomething, how you feel about something, and what it means to you.
beautiful answer.
Lucy, what is May's motivation?
Like, again, she kind of feels like she's stuck in between toxic and this reflection.
(21:21):
But like, what is her motivation through Fool for Love?
I think that may really is finally starting to look at herself in a new light.
I think that she really is ready in many aspects to pursue better than she'd been given upuntil this point in her life.
(21:48):
And
She does love Eddie.
She loves their dynamic to one extent and hates it to another.
And so I think she really is pulled between a lot of love and hate, a lot of passion andrepulsion.
um But I think some of the confusion is finally starting to lift for her.
(22:10):
And she does have really hard decisions to make.
But I think overall, her trajectory
is potentially going to be more positive.
it's hard to choose better when you don't really know what that means.
Yes, I have a lot of empathy for her um being in the position that she's in.
(22:33):
you have be having this be such like a passion project.
Is there a challenge to like being so close to that and then having to like take a stepback and step into it in a different direction or like a different way?
Yes and no.
I really have been extremely blessed by the group of people that has come together forthis.
um And I have found that in my life when I'm really supposed to do something artistically,it does kind of fall into place just as it should.
(23:04):
And this really fell into place.
So I have felt very comfortable, like not.
Directing it.
I never wanted to direct it Ever so it's been really nice to just kind of sit back and bebeautifully directed and I can trust Callie so much and I trust everybody I think the only
time I feel a little Anxed is that I just really want to make sure It's exactly what SamShepard deserves.
(23:31):
I have just so much love for him as an artist and he's gifted me so much in my life
And I really, think that it is.
I think it is going to be something that he would, if he was alive, he would go, yeah,kids, that's good.
That was good, kids.
I hope so.
Those are the things I think about at night.
was that good enough?
(23:54):
You
what I think about it, Nate.
Hahaha!
So, Kaylee, for you, what is kind of your approach to directing a show such as this?
Or like, how do you get your vision kind of from your mind to the stage?
Do you have a specific way you do that?
So that's really interesting that you asked that question, because I don't know.
(24:14):
Perfect.
am very much more of a feel person than I am a visualized person.
And that was, I think, my biggest fear around stepping back into directing, because it hasbeen quite a while since I have.
um But I trusted in myself and I trusted in my actors.
And so my approach to this is I I try to be a very collaborative director.
(24:40):
um I want to know your ideas.
I want to know why you're thinking that way and you can with the right amount ofjustification You can convince me of just about anything so my My approach when looking at
scenes is kind of just like The the four actors that we have chosen um Lucy and Ken I'veworked with for years Eric and I have been in class together for about a year and then our
(25:08):
Eddie, who was played by Robbie Mullinger, I had seen in a couple shows before.
So I knew what I was dealing with.
It wasn't like I was coming into this with like, I've only seen your audition tape.
So I very much like put my trust in it.
I kind of, I think I said at the beginning of our rehearsal process, I was like, I trustyou guys, do what you need to do.
(25:29):
And I'm going to direct you just to make sure we don't look stupid.
uh And so I'm very much like.
I think my uh catchphrase on this is, you know, if it feels right to you or I invite youto think about it this way and just how it feels because so much of this is play.
(25:49):
I, every single one of our actors came in and particularly Lucy, especially since you Lucyhave been living with this for so long, is I feel like everybody came into this with the
perfect intentions.
And so I think my job as a director is like, your intentions are great, your motivationsare great, but what if we try to add anger here instead of sadness?
(26:11):
What does that feel like?
And can we blend the two emotions?
um you know, like with Martin too, specifically Martin, it's like, you can play himsimple.
think we've had this discussion too of like three pages of Martin's lines.
All he says is, oh
(26:34):
But every single one is different and every single one has this immense thought processthat Eric is showing us happen through Martin.
So it's like, again, you can justify just about anything to me with some good thoughtprocesses.
I'm not gonna hate it.
The only thing that we are running into recently is a blocking choice that our actor Kenwould like to make and we're like, does this work with tech?
(27:00):
Does this work with our lights?
What are we?
How are we doing this here?
But yeah, I think I've rambled on that question a bit, but I try to be collaborative, Ithink.
Anyway, very much so.
Even today, you asked me, I love when you ask me questions because it does make me thinkabout why am I doing this?
(27:22):
And you asked me a question today, like, there a reason that you're doing that?
And to be honest, there wasn't.
And I wasn't even fully aware that I was doing it.
So it was like, oh, huh, no.
Thank you.
Hahaha!
I need to know why I'm doing it or maybe I don't need to do it, you know, so...
(27:47):
Perhaps.
But I love the collaboration from everybody.
It's just been really beautiful.
Eric and Lucy, I have a question for you two.
What is the process of bringing your character then to life on stage?
Like, how do you kind of, I guess Lucy, you've been living with this forever.
So I'm gonna let Eric answer this one first.
ah
(28:08):
You know, for me, uh it's been a while since I've done theater.
uh And for me, I relied very heavily on Callie's direction and asking those smart,creative questions.
Like, I invite you to do this.
I want you to think about that.
Because when my interpretation of Martin at the beginning of this was a
(28:33):
extremely different than what Callie had envisioned.
ah I had probably done a little too much research on the character and ah kind of leanedmore into the more traditional ways that you play Martin.
ah So this has been very ah therapeutic for me as well in terms of uh witnessing uhtoxicity right in front of you at such a high standard and high level of emotion.
(29:03):
And um yeah, I think for me, it's just kind of getting lost in this whole process.
And I relied a lot on Callie, very much on Lucy, Ken, and Robbie to do what they do.
otherwise, it's just jokes with me.
You know what I mean?
So you have to really be able to draw me in, and they really did a really good job.
(29:23):
Lucy, how about for you?
there, well, this is an interesting character because there is a part of me that feelslike she's just, she is in me.
but there are parts that I'm just discovering every day, which is really beautiful.
I'm an all in actor.
(29:46):
If I'm not all in, I'm out.
And this has required all of.
So it's and it's been really beautiful like I'm exhausted Like emotionally I am a littlebit exhausted, but I'm also finding myself being refreshed by her and being refreshed by
(30:09):
you know Just being with such a beautiful group of people and they're all just sowonderfully safe and kind And I've had a lot of space to be super vulnerable and raw
And I do, I love method acting.
I'm a method actor, I'll be honest.
So there's a lot of real life fuel behind May for me.
(30:32):
So are we actually talking to me right now?
I'm just kidding.
discussion someday about the realities of method.
I would love it.
could talk about method.
Nausium.
Callie knows that.
You can come back anytime and talk about anything you want.
ah
(30:54):
Let's do it.
So this is a question for all of you, but I'm gonna start with Callie.
So with this show focusing so much on the different forms of love and what love kind ofis, do you feel like your thoughts and relationship with love and romance have changed
from working on the Sam Shepard play?
That's a great question.
in here.
(31:18):
I don't think that Sam Shepard has changed my mind because of this show.
I think Sam Shepard did a great job of tricking me before.
Like I said, when I first read this, I was like, this is terribly romantic.
May has a line about how they would get desperately sick if they weren't together.
uh Or violently sick if they weren't together and like oh gosh, that's so terriblyromantic But as you said that's not actually romantic.
(31:46):
That's just a trauma response Through my own life experiences and through my ownexperiences uh with toxic love I think that if anything at the other side of this
rehearsal process and on the other side of this show I think I will be
(32:07):
even more resolute, that this is not what it should be.
And even if I were to rewind the clock and redo this whole rehearsal process and makeEddie the male lead who he has some redeeming qualities, but I do think at the end of the
(32:28):
day, I mean, we haven't talked much about Eddie, but I do think at the end of the day,Eddie is the like main aggressor and not to
like not to beat around any bush.
Eddie, think is an abuser.
If even if I were to rewind the clock, start this rehearsal process over again and playEddie the most innocent that one could, the most genuine, like not lying, not
(32:54):
manipulating, not showing off.
If we were to go back and play the root of Eddie as just like try to twist it and makeEddie the victim, still don't think we could do that with the material.
Like I don't think.
Agreed.
what Sam Shepard has given us.
I don't know though.
Now I kinda wanna try, but not this time around.
(33:15):
don't know.
Maybe next time.
Yeah.
Lucy, how about for you?
You've had, again, this long relationship with it.
Has your idea of love and romance changed from your relationship with this play?
very much so.
And it's changed over the years.
(33:36):
And I'm still learning so much about what love is and what it isn't.
I think I've got a much better grasp on what it isn't at 37 years old than I did when Iwas 20, when I first read this.
I felt the same way as Callie.
I'm like, this is just so, I want somebody to whip me around and.
(33:57):
oh
excuse me and make me sick and I encountered plenty of that in my life.
um But I think what I'm learning through this process of rehearsing and bringing this tolife with these people is the importance of a calm nervous system.
(34:17):
And that's something I've never really quite had in my life or understood as valuable.
But this is really...
been an opportunity to feel calm even in the midst of telling this radically wild story.
And I don't think Sam Shepard had any idea he was writing something that was going tospark this type of discussion.
(34:42):
um But that's also the mark of great work too.
Eric, how about for you?
think the name of the show says it all, right?
Fool for Love.
And I think that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
And if you read between the lines, it is, uh you're foolish if this is the kind of lovethat you are continuously going back to.
(35:11):
And I think, again, going back to Martin's eyes as the lenses of the audience, I think youget an understanding that love makes you do
crazy things.
ah It doesn't always make sense.
Sometimes you do things that you would look back on and say, I can't believe I did that.
Or looking forward, you would say, I would never do that in a million years and you stilldo it.
(35:34):
And again, I think just like, like I said, the title says it all.
You are a fool for love, no matter how you look at it, whether you're in love, out oflove, or falling in love with somebody that you shouldn't be somebody that you should.
kind of foolish sometimes and i think that this show shows the good the bad and the uglyof that
(35:55):
With that message you feel at all that that could be that could feel like almost it'snihilistic the right word I like you know what mean just kind of like if everybody's a
fool.
What's the point of doing this?
No, because I think there's an underlying, but there's also that silver lining within it,I think too, that, you know, with all that being said, love doing all those negative toxic
(36:16):
things, it's so genuine and so pure and so beautiful that once you actually do findsomebody who you do love or loves you back, that all of that goes away.
And then again, you're just a fool for that kind of love and you'll do anything to keepit.
So again.
the title I think says it all.
(36:36):
Good, bad and ugly.
Yeah, and well I and I agree with everything that you just said and I will say though Iread this year a college student's like almost thesis regarding this play and they chose
to look at it from the lens of fool for love with fool being a verb.
(36:57):
Okay.
Meaning not only can you be foolish, but you are doing fooling You are doing the foolingfor love and that was really interesting because I I truly hadn't thought of it through
that lens before And but you'll you see a lot of that too in this story and you see it inlife.
(37:18):
You see people putting on all kinds of masks
and playing all kinds of roles to attract someone or to try to get someone to fall in lovewith them or keep them in love with them.
So there is a significant amount of fooling.
I think that goes on as well as being a fool and feeling foolish.
(37:38):
And so it really is a, it's a, it's a well-rounded exploration of the dynamics of theserelationships and how do we get lost in them?
But how do you, you can also then be found in them.
And I think that is the silver lining too.
You can be found in them.
You can be healed in them as well as being a complete absolute idiot.
(38:01):
oh
that line too then with that thesis, not only could you fool other people into it, but youcould also be fooling yourself into, this what I want?
Is this a love I should accept?
And I think people do that every day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
like holding back right there.
Well, I mean, I do that I think, you know, Lucy mentioned earlier about our mentor sayingto us, you know, not very many women pick up Sam Shepard and particularly full for love,
(38:30):
which is insane to me because I again, my lens, I can't unsee the story about May, likethis story centers around May.
um And while like I said, it mentions
generational trauma and sins of our fathers and how does that like trickle down into whatwe're dealing with today?
(38:50):
There's a uh pretty heavy emphasis on father and son in this show.
um It does still center around May.
You know, it's her date night.
It's Eddie coming back to her.
It's at any given moment, May is holding the reins of control until she gives them away,which she does over and over and over again.
(39:14):
And if I had to, I think maybe boil this down, like one character trait, one thing, thisis May's struggle to regain her power.
Like that is what this show is about, is May trying to regain her struggle against her ex,Eddie.
And again, we'll figure out whether or not she does at the end of the show.
(39:35):
um But yeah, I don't know.
It's just, I don't know.
I'm rambling again, but I just, it is very-
maybe.
You know, you had mentioned that we didn't talk a lot about Eddie, but it does.
He.
It's interesting because this conversation, feels like.
The conversation was like for May's story, who is the villain in the way?
(39:57):
Is it Eddie is is May also kind of stopping her own story from being true here?
Are they both kind of at fault?
And uh there's some interesting dynamics that could be there with this this ex-boyfriendthat kind of rolls back into the picture.
Sure, and I definitely think in every relationship dynamic, it definitely takes two totango.
It does.
um And even, I would never want to sound victim blaming.
(40:25):
uh However, there is the statistic that women who are abused will return to their abuserupwards of eight times before they can finally sever the tie.
And there are so many times when,
Like you hear that and you're like, why?
I just want to grab her and shake her and why?
You know, but that's not how it works and it does happen.
(40:47):
So where am I going with this?
um Yes, I do think that there are instances in which May can be the aggressor and May doesplay into the dynamic.
um But what's different about Fool for Love?
versus every other day of their lives.
Cause that's something that you ask yourself as an actor and particularly as a directorall the time whenever you approach a scene is like, what's different about today?
(41:11):
What makes this instance stand out in a story of their back and forth love that spans, Imean, we can argue three decades that their love story spans.
What makes this particular instance different is I think, and correct me if I'm wrong,Lucy.
But I think and I feel that this is the first time in 30 years that May has tried to gether power back.
(41:34):
Absolutely.
That's totally the difference.
uh Huge, huge.
And I think too, I think Eddie and May have an extremely codependent bond too.
They have trauma bond and they're extremely codependent with one another.
(41:56):
And you know, Eddie definitely
can come off as more of the aggressor.
But I also want to just hype Robbie for a minute because he's not here.
But he is playing this with so much humanity um that I mean, I think.
I think audiences are gonna like him.
(42:17):
I really think they're going to feel a certain type of way for him.
I think you're gonna see why May is still entertaining this shit show, pardon me.
ah But I do think that he is coming at it from a really pure lens.
I think the way Robbie is playing it, I don't think his intent is to ever hurt her, eventhough he does hurt her.
(42:41):
And I don't think that he's...
I think he is a man that has yet to step into any real self-awareness, whereas May isstepping into awareness now.
And what will she do with that awareness?
We don't quite know.
But I think that it is a really toxic codependent dance that they do well and that they'vewitnessed the generations before them in their lives dance.
(43:12):
That's the devil you know.
The devil you know is always more comfortable.
You know, you mentioned about that playing him very charming, but you said you said theword trauma bonding, which I learned about very early on.
when I started seeing clients as like an intern and that was one of the first cases Ireally worked with.
And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong here.
And my supervisor said, it's almost impossible to break a trauma bond until one of themwants to break that bond.
(43:37):
And it's constantly that cycle.
And it's the abusive cycle of one, you come back because that person is charming and youremember the good things about them.
And then you fall into that cycle of.
attacker, pursuer, which sounds scary, but those are not exactly what those words mean.
And then you get swept back up into that until you realize you stand back when thedestruction is done.
You're like, what did I just do again?
Yes, yes.
And Callie had said something in rehearsal at one point because there is a line about,know, Eddie says something to Mae, like, you will never replace me.
(44:06):
And you know it.
And like, what does that mean?
Like, what is the gravity of a statement like that?
And.
even though you may know on one hand this thing that we have is not good for me and itharms me, but I also, I don't want to lose my place.
I don't want to lose my place in your life either.
(44:28):
Like I still want to be so important to you.
You know, so it really is just such an interesting dynamic and charming is I'm repeatingthis phrase to myself currently.
oh
harm will cause me harm.
This is the same charm a little differently.
(44:51):
um Or as my grandma always would say, you know, that charm is just a code for bullshit.
You
And that's true too, but charm will cause you harm.
But we place a lot of emphasis on charm in our society as though it's just the utmost ofcompliments um to be a charming person.
(45:12):
And I suppose there's nothing wrong with charm on the surface, but how do you use it?
m
And part of that is self-esteem.
What is the self-esteem of the person behind the charm?
Like, do they have a strong self-esteem or are they lacking in using that as amanipulation tactic?
Right.
Yeah.
Totally.
So what are we hoping audiences take away from this production of Fool for Love?
(45:35):
I know we've kind of covered it all, but we gotta give the people one last time to kind ofknow.
So, Kayleigh, I'm gonna start with you.
What are you hoping audiences take away?
uh Well, if nothing else, I hope they take away uh what a phenomenal group of actors thisis um Truly I couldn't have asked for a better cast um Lucy's the most dynamic actor I've
(46:00):
ever watched Like Robert Downey Jr.
Get out of here Meryl Streep.
Who is she?
Lucy Gillespie is the one and Ken and Robbie and Eric create a
beautiful, like all four of you guys create such a beautiful ensemble with one anotherthat like if I can do, if nothing else comes from this play, I want the audience members
(46:25):
to slap their knees and be like, well, that was some good acting.
I don't know what the heck just happened there, but they were all really in it.
know?
Yes.
But content wise, we talked about this a little bit in rehearsal yesterday and today isthat like,
This is a show that I think people will be talking about for a while.
It really is one that gets under your skin, because there are so many layers here.
(46:49):
And if you don't have questions and you don't have um things to discuss about it, I thinkit confronted you too hard.
Like I think it held a mirror up to you too much, um is my professional opinion.
But yeah, I hope this will create discussion around what love, what...
(47:11):
what good love feels like.
um And I hope people watch this and say, I don't want that.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
beautiful answer.
Eric, I'm sorry you have to follow that.
Hahaha
How do you do that?
uh I think the one thing that I'm going to want people to take out of this is a visualrepresentation of what not to do when you're in love.
(47:43):
What not to do, uh how a relationship should not be.
And I think that we all...
fall victim to being in relationships that we shouldn't be in.
And if at any point that on the ride home, any audience members is thinking, I shouldn'tbe with this person who's driving home next to me, I think we get our uh job, if they're
(48:07):
not in a very healthy relationship, that is.
ah But I do want the audience to recognize uh that not all love is good love.
Lucy, about for you?
um Just to kind of say some of the same, but I hope that audiences do have a lot ofquestions.
(48:29):
I hope they have more questions than answers, honestly.
I hope they have more questions for themselves.
But I also hope that, you know, it's a healing experience to a certain extent because somany of us, like Eric said, we've been in something we knew we shouldn't have, or we may
still be.
And I hope people feel a little less alone when they watch it.
(48:51):
I hope they feel a little more seen themselves and a little more empowered maybe to do alittle bit more of a deep dive into, okay, well, why am I in this or why did I choose
that?
And I always like hope at the end of anything, you know, and I think that there is thepotential for a lot of hope.
(49:15):
with this and a lot of healing to happen.
And I also hope that people just have a good time because as dark as this story is, thereare parts of it that are actually really funny.
that is also the brilliance of Sam Shepard, but that's also mimics a life.
Like on some of the worst days of my life, I've still laughed a little.
(49:37):
And there is that.
There's the opportunity to laugh.
And this is a really beautiful.
Lucy, will you sign us off and just tell us where people can watch Fool for Love?
Tell us about your theater company here and when it's
My theater is a professional acting troupe.
It's called Teatro da Vida, which is Italian.
(49:59):
It means theater of life.
And I named it for the Italian women who raised me.
So my grandmother is Vida.
Her name means life.
And my Italian mother is the love of my life and has gifted me this insane desire to keeppursuing art and letting it chase me.
(50:21):
So that is who it's named for.
And we will we weave in and out of spaces, so I don't have a set home for a theater But Itry to I'm trying to bring theater into more spaces within communities So we run at enter
stage right the Citadel stage.
They've been a lovely host for us June 6 7th and 8th in the 6th and 7th or Friday Saturdaythe shows at 7 p.m.
(50:51):
And Sunday at 2 p.m
And the show will be about 65, 70 minutes without a break.
And then we'll give you a little break, but we're going to have talk backs after each.
So it'll give the audience a chance to ask some questions of the artists.
And that's going to be just as important as the show to be able to have that conversation.
I'm so excited for it.
I hope people have a lot of questions.
(51:13):
Kelly, Eric, Lucy, thank you so much for your time.
greatly appreciate it.
And we're so excited for people to go and see the show.
Thank you.
you so much, Brian.
So nice to meet you.
Yes.
meet you.
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