October 3, 2025 • 37 mins
There are some shows that are as important and life-changing as they are hilarious and entertaining, which seems to be the junction at which Clybourne Park lives. Using a healthy dose of humor, this poignant story explores the topics of racism and gentrification through the eyes of all parties involved. We spoke with actress Camille Jamerson and director Benjamin Burt about their time working on Farmington Players' production of Clybourne Park and what audiences can expect from this beautiful play.
In this exclusive Box Seat Babes interview, Camille Jamerson and Benjamin Burt talk about what drew them to Clybourne Park and why the time is perfect to bring this play to Farmington Players! Jamerson discusses what this play means to her and how she has balanced and developed the two distinct characters she plays in Clybourne Park. Burt discusses what drew him to directing this play and how he helps guide the story towards its success. Why is Clybourne Park so important in this current political landscape? The director and actor discuss this in detail, exploring how the Farmington Players bring it to life with grace and openness.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Thank you so much for joining me today, Ben and Camille.
(00:02):
How are you two doing?
as well, doing great.
We are so excited to talk about Clybourne Park.
As I was telling Camille last time, ah I read this back in college and this is one of myfavorite plays.
I've never seen it live, but it was one of my favorite plays to read.
And so I'm super excited to see this open up.
ah Well, it's already been open, but you've been running for two weeks now, but, or youjust had your opening weekend.
(00:23):
I apologize.
Yeah, it's been great.
week.
So Camille, how has that experience been so far that opening weekend?
Oh wow, it's all the things.
It's exhilarating, it's exhausting, it's...
I mean, you're anxious and nervous and excited all at the same time.
And I guess in the end, it's rewarding to kind of see everything finally come together andkind of meet this journey with your cohorts and finally get to see the end product and see
(00:56):
all the work.
uh kind of pay off.
So it's been a wild ride.
It was, it's interesting, it's fun.
I'm exhausted still, but oh I'm already ready for Friday.
It's like a good kind of exhaustion, know?
It's like that energetic, like, I've given everything and this is the best it's gonna beand it's gonna be fantastic.
(01:18):
Absolutely, we're already talking in the group chat about how much we miss each otheralready because we're used to seeing each other all the time for rehearsal and every day
for tech week and now it's like I miss them.
So yeah, I'll be excited to get back Friday.
Ben, what was kind of that experience?
You you got to see the final products out on stage for that opening weekend.
(01:41):
That had to be just as exhilarating to see it all come together.
man, it was incredible.
um As a director, you're always like, when I directed my very first show, my mentor at thetime, goes, oh, welcome to directing.
We start drinking at noon.
And it's just such an intense thing.
(02:03):
uh You have to really take it into your life, whatever piece you're working on.
And so for me, I always have to be very passionate about what the project is because it's
it requires so much so so getting you you getting through this rehearsal process gettinginto tech going you know getting into where it finally needs to be and seeing it fulfilled
(02:26):
and then and then you're like okay I think it's good this is that this is the with theworst part of the directing direction is this you're a point we're like okay I think this
is good I'm laughing I'm having a great time and then you go maybe no one else will likeit maybe I've only done a show that I will like
And that's all, which, you know, to be real is kind of all you can do.
(02:46):
Like as a director, that's, long as you put that amount of passion into it and be like,I've done something that I'm proud of and that fulfills me, is really all you can do.
Cause I can't guarantee audience response ever.
But getting to finally see that for this show last weekend was really special.
(03:07):
The audience ate it up.
uh
And seeing the actors finally feed on that energy, that's so rewarding that their laughsare landing.
The emotional moments are hitting hard and you can genuinely, with live theater, you couldfeel that live energy in the room.
(03:29):
And it was such a great weekend, such a great weekend.
always kind of think of it as like, when you have children and they turn 18, you gottasend them out into the world.
That's kind what it is every time you start a show.
yeah.
Chris Clonts my, it's such an ensemble piece, so nobody's the lead, but in Act One, youwould say he's probably the lead of Act One.
(03:51):
He was saying, he's like, okay, you've now given us this baby, and we're just gonna makesure we don't drop the baby.
And I'm sitting there like, please don't drop the baby.
ugh.
So wonderful, like all seven of my cast.
They're all wonderful.
Camille is fantastic.
um I don't ever doubt it really.
(04:14):
I don't ever doubt what they're gonna do and how they're gonna execute.
It's a really special cast.
I think that speaks to this play.
I've not seen it live, but just reading it, it is an incredible piece of work to just, andso I can only imagine being able to kind of carry that when you have such a strong script
(04:36):
and then you have strong actors.
I don't want say it's easy, but it makes the job a little bit easier to have that.
Yeah, I would say that's 90 % of it.
Casting is 90 % of the hard work of directing.
um And it's a huge, it's difficult.
doesn't mean that last 10 % is suddenly easy, but you can, it sets you up to complete thatlast 10%, whereas if you've miscasted or you don't have the right person or whatever, all
(05:03):
of the X factors that fall into it, you know you won't be able to complete that last 10%.
um
And so I'm just, I've been grateful every day at the end of every rehearsal.
Like, wow, I've, it's my first show that I've directed in Michigan.
And so it's my first kind of exposure to the Michigan community acting group andFarmington players and especially.
(05:27):
and I've, I've just been over the moon with, with, the professionalism, with the workethic, with, I mean, just the raw talent and the, and, and the passion, if I can just put
it on Camille here for a second.
In the auditions, she came in and was like, this play is very special to me.
she, and she, and she was very vocal about not just as an actor would be with an, want tobook a role or it's exciting to, you know, that, that actor energy, but genuinely like
(05:55):
this play and for these reasons.
And I played in, in A Raisin in the Sun in college and, and to, connect it all backtogether, like just that, that level of connection to it.
You can't, there's no substitute for that.
And it's showing in Camille's performance.
It's really remarkable.
(06:16):
So Camille, knew like you had to be in this.
You like, when you saw that this was coming, you're like, I have to do this.
Yeah, I think my daughter was probably the final catalyst to kind of like, ma, go back andaudition.
Because I've been away from Fermaton Players for a couple of years.
And then when I saw what it was, and as Ben said, the connection to A Raisin in the Sun,I'm like.
(06:39):
all right, I kind of got to, you know, I at least got to try, at least got to audition.
And so I was so grateful to get the role for that reason, because it's kind of like fullcircle for me to be able to tell, be a part of telling the rest of that story, at least in
the first act.
uh But I definitely applaud Ben for his sensitivity to the sensitive pieces of the play.
(07:07):
And
for really hand holding me through that.
Because there were a lot of moments where I'm like, no, I don't think we would say that orwe wouldn't do that or we wouldn't act that way.
And he was like, the role.
And I had to really separate myself.
Camille from the role and as he would say and especially in the first act understand thestation of Francine and understand what she had the freedom to do or not do or say or not
(07:37):
say in that time so I I just applaud him for taking such a strong-willed woman like me andoh
holding her steady so she could see and deliver the role authentically.
And I think um that's kind of what the end result has been.
(07:57):
You know, it's kind of cool though that like, again, with that collaborative approach ofactor and director of being able to, he's like, let's look at it through this lens and
see, you know, this is what your care, how your character would be.
And you get to take that back.
And like you said, make it more authentic.
that's, that's, that makes it more beautiful over performance.
there were a couple of moments like that where I felt safe to say Ben black peoplewouldn't do that.
(08:20):
or Black people wouldn't say that.
He would really consider like, well, okay, well, wait.
And then we had to think about, well, why would the playwright put that in there?
What's the motivation behind it?
So I had an understanding as to how to play certain things.
So his just overall sensitivity and commitment to authenticity, I think was reallyimportant and was really one of the reasons that I think the play is just as phenomenal as
(08:46):
it is.
Speaking of the play and stuff, what is kind of the story, Camille?
Because maybe there are some people who aren't familiar.
I didn't know until we were talking last time that it was like connected to A Raisin inthe Sun, which was like, I have to go back and I have to, you know, see that again and
experience that.
So what's kind of going on in Clybourne Park um and who are you playing in that?
(09:06):
a lot going on in Clybourne Park.
uh Well I am playing Francine and Lena and in the first half I'm playing Francine who isthe housekeeper to a white family who is living at the time in a predominantly white
neighborhood but they have inadvertently sold their home to the first black family of thatneighborhood.
(09:30):
And the first black family that is moving into that neighborhood is the family from ARaisin in the Sun.
who moves into a white neighborhood at the end of that particular play.
In the second half of this play, this is 50 years later in 2009, Obama's in his first yearof the presidency, and we are dealing with now, it.
(09:55):
being a predominantly black neighborhood and now a white family is moving into that sameneighborhood, into that same house.
And there is this resistance oh from my character, Lena, because her great aunt was theone who bought that home.
And the white family that's coming in kind of represents the gentrification of thatparticular neighborhood.
(10:22):
it's, it's...
kind of the underlying theme is real estate and grief and all the things around that.
But on top of all of that, it's just, and I said it before, it's a lot of talking, a lotof conversation, but not a lot of listening.
(10:45):
And you'll see that we talk a lot in this play.
There's a lot of talking throughout the entire play.
And what I think it shows better than anything is the power of conversation, be it a toolor a weapon.
mean, that's a beautiful answer to that question.
I mean, it shows just how complex this play is and how many layers there are to kind ofhave to dive through.
(11:11):
Ben, when you kind of got that script, I'm guessing, what about this play to you was justlike, I have to direct this show?
What was it about that just really stood out to you?
There were There were several things um I I love Plays that that
I love that plays that plays that have a deeper meaning and a deeper commentary withoutresorting to becoming a lecture or a thesis play, if you will.
(11:39):
Like I wrote this play to make this point and over the next, you know, over the course ofthis essay, I will tell you all of the reasons, you know, and it's, there are, there are a
lot of plays like that.
And some of those are actually great plays, but, but they're not.
They don't really speak to me.
It's like, okay, I can read that you read that academically.
You read that in school and you don't ever actually see it for me.
I'm like, I don't ever need to see that performed.
(12:00):
just read it and I go, okay, cool.
I got it.
And I'm So for me, I always, I'm always drawn to pieces that have a stage presence, havean engagement, have as Camille was talking about the dialogue, how, much of it there is
and the rhythm and the music that exists in that is so engaging.
Um, and, and to me, I mean, you've, you've read it.
(12:21):
To me, that comes through on the page.
And I was like, this is, there's a rhythm to this.
There's a uh humor to this that you wouldn't think of when somebody describes the plotitself.
Like, okay, this sounds like a very serious, very stoic take on race and time and how haveour communities changed?
(12:43):
Yeah, racism.
it just, and it manages to touch that.
and comment on it without giving you a clean answer because they're acknowledging thatthere kind of is no clean answer, but just more shining a light on the circumstances as
they are making you laugh along the way, making you relate to characters that you didn'tthink you were going to relate to.
(13:09):
I think that one of the great things about both acts of the play kind of is, you know,it's two reflective halves in these two time periods.
One of my, for me, I read it and I was like, I'm gonna connect to, you know, I identified,I'm like, I think this is the one.
He's gonna be my guy along the way.
And then in the course of each hour of each act, I went, oh, there's, but now I'mconnecting to this person.
(13:36):
now I'm connecting to the person who's saying some really troublesome things even.
You you have your good, there's no good and bad in the play necessarily, but there arepeople that certainly have.
Viewpoints of their time if you will call them, you know, like uh, in act one we can flatout call it racist to be honest, you know, um, but, but even, but you know, we can't play
(13:57):
him like a villain and even, then in some of what he's saying, you're like, I get thepoint.
just, you just have such a terrible view on it.
Like you're, you're, you're the baseline.
What you're, what you're talking about might be true.
except that you're reflecting it through this lens that they are that this couple is lessthan.
um And that and that's fascinating and you have to reckon with that along the way.
(14:23):
My dog is behind me and she's she wants to get involved in the conversation.
And that happens.
That's I think in the act one is obviously easier.
That example is easier to separate from because like, well, it's 70 years ago.
It's obviously more overtly racist or overtly segregated and all of that.
But
And act two is where it starts to get money.
(14:43):
the Steve character becomes like, well, I do wish we could have this conversation moreopenly.
I do wish that we could just say things.
You don't say it the way he says it.
don't, you know, you don't, there's a, there's a, there's a tactfulness and a discoursethat is required.
But when, but, but you also can't just fully dismiss it.
(15:05):
You can't just be like, okay, that's an absurdity.
But I think the play challenges that everyone's viewpoints and coming into it, you'regoing to identify with certain people you're going to have.
There's really, really beautiful emotional moments that happen along the way.
um I call them the interstitial moments that, you know, there's a lot of the play is sixor seven people on stage at all times.
(15:31):
And so when, when that's happening, obviously the audience can look anywhere they want.
People are talking over here.
ah But on the other side of the stage, Camille and Kyle will be standing and they'll havethis whole moment, this whole listening, reacting moment to what's going on on stage that
is so full and so lived in and tells its own story um that I can't direct that.
(15:59):
I can't, I can't.
It's something that happens at point in the rehearsal process where that, that, I get themto like my job, you know, the director gets you to that point of rehearsal of
understanding of character analysis and all of that.
But I can't direct it for two reasons.
One, there's no way that I could actually just tell them to do that.
like, okay, so now while he's talking and then he says this thing, you guys need to havethis really poignant look at each other.
(16:22):
Because if I say that it won't happen organically, it'll become a different thing.
But
So it has to come from the actors and then once it's there, it just rounds out the stageand it fills out the story.
That's what I mean by the interstitial.
(16:44):
It's what connects the thing and makes it real and creates this really powerful moment.
there's a lot of that that happens, both in a poignant way and also in a very funny way.
There's a ton of...
Sometimes something will be going on and I'm laughing and we've been in rehearsals andthey're like, what are you laughing at?
like, it has nothing to do with you.
I'm looking at Kelly over here, just her face.
(17:04):
Like she's listening to you guys and reacting and it's hilarious and it has nothing to dowith what's going on.
So that's really special.
I have no idea what the original question was anymore because I've been talking andenjoying just telling the story, but I just love the play.
I'm a big fan of the play.
(17:24):
interesting that you say that because we hear Ben out in the audience laughing and we'relike Are you kidding me?
He's seen this a hundred times.
Why is he still laughing at this?
I mean like cracking up and he has a very distinct laugh So everybody on stage can hear itand we all go back in the dressing room like did you guys hear Ben laughing again?
(17:45):
And then he'll come back and tell us that like no, you guys didn't see when Kyle did sucha such a so-and-so or when Kelly did but I'm really
Oh, okay.
But it's all, it seems to be always new and fresh and uh that's good.
The other thing that you said, Ben, that I think is really important to bring out is thatit is funny.
(18:08):
um There are just hilarious moments in there and it's reminiscent of back in the day whenyou know, my grandma used to try to give us medicine that was horrible and she'd give you
something sweet to go with it to kind of mask the taste.
It's kind of those moments.
I think that humor helps.
um
(18:29):
helps the audience have those conversations and sit in those moments more comfortably emthan they would if it were just like you said been straight lecture or or what have you
and so those humorous moments are needed I think they're needed for the actors too becausesome of it is really heavy so when we get those moments we really just have fun with it em
(18:51):
but yeah I guess that is the thing to remember that it is funny and also when you saidabout
being, I forgot how you said it, but the thing that I've been telling people is that thereare no heroes and no victims.
uh
You know, there's nobody that you could point at and be like, okay, they're with a cleanwinner.
No, it's not like that.
um Everybody em has their moment.
(19:14):
They have their time to shine or to make their point.
But you could point to any one character and say, you know what, they got a point there.
You know, nobody was totally wrong.
Nobody was totally right.
So.
Um, yeah, it's complex, but it's really a fun ride and it sounds so contradictory, butit's true.
(19:37):
But that's what makes it special.
That contradiction is what makes it special.
I agree
I think that's what also makes it human too, is that like we're all full ofcontradictions.
Not everything is always black and white.
Like a lot of plays, you know, you have a hero, you have a villain.
That's what people love to see in stories.
But as humans, we all make mistakes.
We all do wrong things.
We all have reasons to be upset, you know?
(20:00):
And so I feel like when you're talking about this, all these moments and these conflictsand even just these, they're they're so human and they're so like they're almost lived in
characters that you're just like assuming these people that
are almost real in a way.
Yeah, that was always my goal, so to speak.
(20:20):
as a director, not just even with this play, but that's what I try to find in plays isserve the story that's there, but find the humanity in it.
um And this play is very, very human.
It's very, very, in yes, the serious ways, but also in just the really wonderful momentsthat happen.
There's love in this play.
There's pain in this play.
(20:43):
really, really funny humor that's, you know, some more slapsticky 1950s sitcom-y.
And then there's really funny humor that's really dark and makes you go, oh, okay, that'shilarious, but ooh, you know, like, ooh, yeah, yeah.
But it's, it really, it's, that's what I always strive for, is to find that humanity andto try to, to try to bring that out.
(21:08):
em the, this cast is...
done me so proud.
I mean, can't rave about him enough.
You know, Camille, when you mentioned about like, we call it in therapy, we call itsandwiching.
Like we tend to sandwich the hard truths with something that is easier to swallow.
And you know, you said about like your grandmother kind of trying to get you to take thenasty medicine, like that it is easier to reflect on those things when we don't have to
(21:33):
feel so weighed down by the fact that they are heavy things.
Like there's a lot of heavy topics in this, this play.
but if you can kind of laugh about it, you're gonna think about it a little bit morebecause we tend to remember those positive things than we do necessarily the negative
feelings as we leave a play.
I love that.
think it's those moments are also important because And I don't know if you've picked upon this bin, but there are moments that happen during the play where the audience isn't
(22:00):
sure whether they should laugh or not You know, and so you hear that Hesitancy or thatsnicker and so the moments that are just evident that they can laugh is almost like a
relief like okay I know I can laugh at that that was funny, you know, so I think that em
It's interesting to watch how humor plays a part in this piece, but I think Bruce Norriswas very wise to balance it that way.
(22:29):
And I think it's what allows the topic to be better absorbed because that humor is justkind of like, and there are certain characters, you know they're going to do something
crazy.
You just watch for it, you know, you just watch for it.
I'm thinking of Kelly in Act Two, you know she's going to say something wild.
So you just kind of wait for it and that's like your comic relief and that message stillgets in but it's cushioned or sandwiched as you say by that humor to help you digest it
(23:02):
easier.
Absolutely.
So, Camille I'm interested in the fact, you do play, like you said, you play two differentcharacters, you know, in like Act 1 and Act 2.
Do you have specific ways of developing those characters, or is it pretty much the same aswhen you, Act 1 to Act 2, of developing and making those characters real for you?
Or is it like, they're very distinct when it comes to making them?
(23:26):
They are very distinct due to the time period that both of them are in and um Ben workedvery diligently with me to understand the station of Francine in the first half.
So that was a very tough transition for me.
(23:46):
uh But.
What I realized in preparing for both of them is that they are more alike than different.
uh
both of them have oh an extraordinary amount of strength.
I think for Francine, her strength came in restraint.
(24:06):
She was able to take the hits of what was coming at her, understanding the station she wasin, absorb the microaggressions and the sarcasm and all the things that she had to take.
That took a strength to be able to endure that and not snap back, which could have at thattime cost her her life.
(24:27):
um And then fast forward to Lena on the other side Understanding that she had a strengthto where she had more freedom than Francine did it takes courage to speak up and to stand
ten toes down on what you believe and what you think is right, especially as a black womanand not be labeled um as the angry black woman or all the things that come with that so
(24:52):
both of them were very strong characters and both taught me a lot
prepare more for Francine I watched a lot of old Movies from that time in that era Evenwatched some old I love Lucy for whatever reason just to kind of put myself in that 50s
(25:13):
Mindset and then for current day In my head I'm like that wasn't that long ago.
I remember 2009 I just went back on my Facebook feed to 2009 and looked at what I wasdoing to it
that time and what I was wearing, what music I was listening to, to kind of...
ah
Remind myself of what that time was like and then thinking about that being Obama's firstyear I remember being very very excited and ecstatic that that had happened but also very
(25:47):
very afraid I remember African-Americans being Extremely afraid that he was going to behurt or you know assassinated or killed and there have been a lot of pieces about that So
I remember that time well, so I just kind of leaned into that
more so for Francine.
It was an interesting time of preparation, but again I applaud Ben for helping make thedistinction between those women and really hand holding me through formulating who those
(26:19):
women were going to be on stage.
And that leads me to ask you, like, so you have basically what is essentially like twoplays here, you have two different characters, you have a lot of things you're kind of
bouncing here.
When you walk into that theater, what is like, how do you, what's your process fordeveloping that from like a director standpoint?
That's a great question.
(26:40):
um
The simple answer is expanding on what I was saying earlier, trying to serve the story.
Bruce Norris has all the blueprints laid out.
If you're going to build a house, have the blueprints all laid out.
All you need to do is serve those blueprints.
So in a very reductive way, that's cool.
(27:05):
I just need to execute what's here.
um
the theory away or the more like you know instinctual way it is.
Dissecting the motivations of each character in each act um Because you and and andbuilding it from there and going okay, so here we are like you break you break everything
(27:26):
down most plays most plays ah You know, even if it's a two act play five act play one actplay whatever it is have multiple scenes like act one scene one act one scene two act one
scene three intermission This is act one one hour in real time act two one hour in realtime
time.
with seven people, so like finding the rhythm of that, finding the stopping points just togive them, if nothing else, just to give the actors something manageable to work on, uh
(27:58):
just took, let's just break it down.
Okay, cool, we have this little exchange between these two characters and it's half a pagelong, but okay, we're gonna work on that and fill that out and then you thread out from
there.
um
There are kind of two phases of a director's work as it pertains to uh the actors orrather the storytelling aspect of it, the non-technical stuff.
(28:23):
um And the first part of it happens...
Begins I should say long before you even hold auditions and it's it's the it's theanalysis the scripts uh scene study of it the Let's break this down.
What are the themes of this?
I have these two acts It's obviously been written so that the same actor plays to do, youknow So there's there's already some connection there that's given based on the casting
(28:51):
They're gonna see this actress knowing she played the person in act one, right?
So why is that?
Why did it?
Why was it written that way?
Why did he have that actress play this part and that part?
um You know, you see, really, you really study it in in that in that, you know, collegetheater one on one way.
um And that process continues throughout rehearsals.
(29:15):
There are like we were we were several weeks into rehearsal and I and I'd we'd be having adiscussion.
And this is the beauty of of the art.
We'd be having a discussion and.
just Camille because she's here would be you should be like hey what about this and I waslike my gosh it suddenly clicks and like that's what that is that I've been thinking about
for six months trying to like oh that's what you know that's that's what that magicalmoment happens so so that's the first part is coming at it from that I keep calling it the
(29:46):
academic side the intellectual side and then the second part is is the is in executingthat with the actors
So now we convey, OK, I have my own ideas for what that connection is or for what themusic of the piece is going to be.
How do we build that out?
How do you write a symphony note by note?
(30:07):
if we're going to, the symphony is already written, how do you get, know, we have to lookat the score and practice those notes.
The notes build in a certain way, a script builds in a certain way, and we find it.
um
And that music, the music that's in my head.
is translated through the instrument of the actors.
(30:29):
And my belief is a good director is flexible in that what's in my head is not alwaysright.
What's in my head is just what's in my head.
But what's in my head is not Camille.
I'm not her, I'm not built.
(30:50):
as her.
So I have something and I hear it and I'm like, okay, I think a trap as a director is tobe like, no, needs to sound, it's when you get into those line reading notes of like, no,
it needs to sound exactly like this.
You gotta say, da, da, da, da, da, da.
But then you hear her say it and go, my gosh, that her viewpoint on it, her intention, herunderstanding of this by way of her own instrument.
(31:15):
highlights something totally different and totally new or deeper or any pick your, pickyour, I don't know, pick your adjective there.
um And it's really wonderful.
for me, so my job is coming at it from all that analysis and then synthesizing thatanalysis through the actors um while also being flexible enough to trust, trust their art.
(31:42):
trust their instinct and their soul is going to come through to make this a real thing.
And it's as simple and as insanely complicated as that.
So then one final question for both of you and Kabeel I'm going start with you before Ilet you go is just with so many beautiful themes with so much depth, what are you hoping
(32:08):
audiences take away from this theatrical experience of Clybourne Park?
Hmm.
man, I got a list.
but one of the things that I do but one of the things that jumps out um is that progressProgress isn't linear um it comes with a lot of hills and valleys and bumps and bruises
(32:31):
and detours and
And it's not a straight line.
And if we're going to move forward as a culture, as a community, as humanity.
We've got to stay on the ride long enough with each other to hear each other out and tohear those conversations.
(32:54):
One of the things I learned back with a guy I used to date a long time ago, long, longtime ago, just in case my husband watches this, long, long time ago, is that he rode
motorcycles.
And when I would get on with him, he would say, you know, when I lean, you got to lean.
Because otherwise, if you're standing up straight when I lean,
(33:16):
the pressure against you will kill us both.
And what I learned and what I hope people take away from this is that we kind of got tolean into this together.
We've got to lean into trying to understand.
uh
racism and the gentrification issues and how we talk to each other and what we can learnfrom each other and some of the things that Kelly says at the end of her scene is if we
(33:47):
could just sit down and talk and have a meal and really get to know one another.
I hope people go away thinking that you know want to make a I want to make an effort.
I want to make an effort to know more, to do better, and to understand others withintentionality.
(34:11):
I know that was a long way around, but yeah.
That was a beautiful answer.
I think that is a huge and important takeaway from this play.
And Ben, I'm so sorry that you have to follow in that footsteps there because that wassuch a great answer.
Ben's gonna bring it trust
Well, I would just, I wouldn't, I wouldn't really say anything too different from that.
(34:33):
would just piggyback on that and say that, you know, um discourse is, is essential.
It's not, it's not important.
It is essential.
And we have to be able to talk to each other.
We have to be able to listen and hear things and hear things that are
that we don't agree with and hear things that make us uncomfortable and hear things that,you know, if we just, if we just stay in our bubbles, like that's, that's part of the
(35:02):
reason this play for me right now is so important.
um And then not to get, not to get political cause I, I, I am a political on, this, butcertain events in the last couple of weeks, ah timed out rather, I was like, our play
talks about that.
uh the willingness to hear somebody.
(35:24):
um
That you can't remove that.
You can't remove that from the equation.
um And as Camille brought up earlier, there are no heroes and there are no victims.
And therefore.
Nobody's right.
Nobody's nobody can sit on a soapbox and say, I am right on this subject and you all mustlisten to what I say and I don't have to listen to you.
(35:49):
It's like, no, I you you.
that's your viewpoint.
That's interesting.
Camille and I had some really wonderful.
conversations just in in in diving into it and she.
I consider myself a sympathetic and empathetic person of like I I I I have empathy forother people.
But I I only know what I know.
And so hearing other people's viewpoint is essential in this play really speaks to thatbecause you observe these people trying to communicate and trying to.
(36:18):
Oftentimes just trying to be right and that's.
And that's the mistake.
They're all trying to be right instead of trying to hear each other.
uh And we can all, I think we can all learn from that.
You know, I think that one of the things that we say, you know, I'm a couples therapist ontop of everything else.
So one of the things we talk about in couples therapy is, uh well, first off, do you wantto be uh right or do you want to be happy?
(36:39):
And then, but also, you, uh are you listening to understand and comprehend or are youlistening to just respond?
And I feel like a lot of times we are just listening to have a response, like you said,like people just want to be heard.
And so we're just responding, but we're not always understanding other people.
Yeah.
And we can always, we all, can always grow in that direction.
(37:00):
We can always, you can always reach deeper into understand.
That to me is what it is to be human, is to try to reach out and connect and understand.
Thank you so much, Camille and Ben, for being here and talking with me.
So Clybourne Park runs at Farmington Players now until
October 5th, so get your tickets now and we'll see you at
(37:20):
the show.
Thank you so much for joining me today, Ben and Camille.
(00:02):
How are you two doing?
as well, doing great.
We are so excited to talk about Clybourne Park.
As I was telling Camille last time, ah I read this back in college and this is one of myfavorite plays.
I've never seen it live, but it was one of my favorite plays to read.
And so I'm super excited to see this open up.
ah Well, it's already been open, but you've been running for two weeks now, but, or youjust had your opening weekend.
(00:23):
I apologize.
Yeah, it's been great.
week.
So Camille, how has that experience been so far that opening weekend?
Oh wow, it's all the things.
It's exhilarating, it's exhausting, it's...
I mean, you're anxious and nervous and excited all at the same time.
And I guess in the end, it's rewarding to kind of see everything finally come together andkind of meet this journey with your cohorts and finally get to see the end product and see
(00:56):
all the work.
uh kind of pay off.
So it's been a wild ride.
It was, it's interesting, it's fun.
I'm exhausted still, but oh I'm already ready for Friday.
It's like a good kind of exhaustion, know?
It's like that energetic, like, I've given everything and this is the best it's gonna beand it's gonna be fantastic.
(01:18):
Absolutely, we're already talking in the group chat about how much we miss each otheralready because we're used to seeing each other all the time for rehearsal and every day
for tech week and now it's like I miss them.
So yeah, I'll be excited to get back Friday.
Ben, what was kind of that experience?
You you got to see the final products out on stage for that opening weekend.
(01:41):
That had to be just as exhilarating to see it all come together.
man, it was incredible.
um As a director, you're always like, when I directed my very first show, my mentor at thetime, goes, oh, welcome to directing.
We start drinking at noon.
And it's just such an intense thing.
(02:03):
uh You have to really take it into your life, whatever piece you're working on.
And so for me, I always have to be very passionate about what the project is because it's
it requires so much so so getting you you getting through this rehearsal process gettinginto tech going you know getting into where it finally needs to be and seeing it fulfilled
(02:26):
and then and then you're like okay I think it's good this is that this is the with theworst part of the directing direction is this you're a point we're like okay I think this
is good I'm laughing I'm having a great time and then you go maybe no one else will likeit maybe I've only done a show that I will like
And that's all, which, you know, to be real is kind of all you can do.
(02:46):
Like as a director, that's, long as you put that amount of passion into it and be like,I've done something that I'm proud of and that fulfills me, is really all you can do.
Cause I can't guarantee audience response ever.
But getting to finally see that for this show last weekend was really special.
(03:07):
The audience ate it up.
uh
And seeing the actors finally feed on that energy, that's so rewarding that their laughsare landing.
The emotional moments are hitting hard and you can genuinely, with live theater, you couldfeel that live energy in the room.
(03:29):
And it was such a great weekend, such a great weekend.
always kind of think of it as like, when you have children and they turn 18, you gottasend them out into the world.
That's kind what it is every time you start a show.
yeah.
Chris Clonts my, it's such an ensemble piece, so nobody's the lead, but in Act One, youwould say he's probably the lead of Act One.
(03:51):
He was saying, he's like, okay, you've now given us this baby, and we're just gonna makesure we don't drop the baby.
And I'm sitting there like, please don't drop the baby.
ugh.
So wonderful, like all seven of my cast.
They're all wonderful.
Camille is fantastic.
um I don't ever doubt it really.
(04:14):
I don't ever doubt what they're gonna do and how they're gonna execute.
It's a really special cast.
I think that speaks to this play.
I've not seen it live, but just reading it, it is an incredible piece of work to just, andso I can only imagine being able to kind of carry that when you have such a strong script
(04:36):
and then you have strong actors.
I don't want say it's easy, but it makes the job a little bit easier to have that.
Yeah, I would say that's 90 % of it.
Casting is 90 % of the hard work of directing.
um And it's a huge, it's difficult.
doesn't mean that last 10 % is suddenly easy, but you can, it sets you up to complete thatlast 10%, whereas if you've miscasted or you don't have the right person or whatever, all
(05:03):
of the X factors that fall into it, you know you won't be able to complete that last 10%.
um
And so I'm just, I've been grateful every day at the end of every rehearsal.
Like, wow, I've, it's my first show that I've directed in Michigan.
And so it's my first kind of exposure to the Michigan community acting group andFarmington players and especially.
(05:27):
and I've, I've just been over the moon with, with, the professionalism, with the workethic, with, I mean, just the raw talent and the, and, and the passion, if I can just put
it on Camille here for a second.
In the auditions, she came in and was like, this play is very special to me.
she, and she, and she was very vocal about not just as an actor would be with an, want tobook a role or it's exciting to, you know, that, that actor energy, but genuinely like
(05:55):
this play and for these reasons.
And I played in, in A Raisin in the Sun in college and, and to, connect it all backtogether, like just that, that level of connection to it.
You can't, there's no substitute for that.
And it's showing in Camille's performance.
It's really remarkable.
(06:16):
So Camille, knew like you had to be in this.
You like, when you saw that this was coming, you're like, I have to do this.
Yeah, I think my daughter was probably the final catalyst to kind of like, ma, go back andaudition.
Because I've been away from Fermaton Players for a couple of years.
And then when I saw what it was, and as Ben said, the connection to A Raisin in the Sun,I'm like.
(06:39):
all right, I kind of got to, you know, I at least got to try, at least got to audition.
And so I was so grateful to get the role for that reason, because it's kind of like fullcircle for me to be able to tell, be a part of telling the rest of that story, at least in
the first act.
uh But I definitely applaud Ben for his sensitivity to the sensitive pieces of the play.
(07:07):
And
for really hand holding me through that.
Because there were a lot of moments where I'm like, no, I don't think we would say that orwe wouldn't do that or we wouldn't act that way.
And he was like, the role.
And I had to really separate myself.
Camille from the role and as he would say and especially in the first act understand thestation of Francine and understand what she had the freedom to do or not do or say or not
(07:37):
say in that time so I I just applaud him for taking such a strong-willed woman like me andoh
holding her steady so she could see and deliver the role authentically.
And I think um that's kind of what the end result has been.
(07:57):
You know, it's kind of cool though that like, again, with that collaborative approach ofactor and director of being able to, he's like, let's look at it through this lens and
see, you know, this is what your care, how your character would be.
And you get to take that back.
And like you said, make it more authentic.
that's, that's, that makes it more beautiful over performance.
there were a couple of moments like that where I felt safe to say Ben black peoplewouldn't do that.
(08:20):
or Black people wouldn't say that.
He would really consider like, well, okay, well, wait.
And then we had to think about, well, why would the playwright put that in there?
What's the motivation behind it?
So I had an understanding as to how to play certain things.
So his just overall sensitivity and commitment to authenticity, I think was reallyimportant and was really one of the reasons that I think the play is just as phenomenal as
(08:46):
it is.
Speaking of the play and stuff, what is kind of the story, Camille?
Because maybe there are some people who aren't familiar.
I didn't know until we were talking last time that it was like connected to A Raisin inthe Sun, which was like, I have to go back and I have to, you know, see that again and
experience that.
So what's kind of going on in Clybourne Park um and who are you playing in that?
(09:06):
a lot going on in Clybourne Park.
uh Well I am playing Francine and Lena and in the first half I'm playing Francine who isthe housekeeper to a white family who is living at the time in a predominantly white
neighborhood but they have inadvertently sold their home to the first black family of thatneighborhood.
(09:30):
And the first black family that is moving into that neighborhood is the family from ARaisin in the Sun.
who moves into a white neighborhood at the end of that particular play.
In the second half of this play, this is 50 years later in 2009, Obama's in his first yearof the presidency, and we are dealing with now, it.
(09:55):
being a predominantly black neighborhood and now a white family is moving into that sameneighborhood, into that same house.
And there is this resistance oh from my character, Lena, because her great aunt was theone who bought that home.
And the white family that's coming in kind of represents the gentrification of thatparticular neighborhood.
(10:22):
it's, it's...
kind of the underlying theme is real estate and grief and all the things around that.
But on top of all of that, it's just, and I said it before, it's a lot of talking, a lotof conversation, but not a lot of listening.
(10:45):
And you'll see that we talk a lot in this play.
There's a lot of talking throughout the entire play.
And what I think it shows better than anything is the power of conversation, be it a toolor a weapon.
mean, that's a beautiful answer to that question.
I mean, it shows just how complex this play is and how many layers there are to kind ofhave to dive through.
(11:11):
Ben, when you kind of got that script, I'm guessing, what about this play to you was justlike, I have to direct this show?
What was it about that just really stood out to you?
There were There were several things um I I love Plays that that
I love that plays that plays that have a deeper meaning and a deeper commentary withoutresorting to becoming a lecture or a thesis play, if you will.
(11:39):
Like I wrote this play to make this point and over the next, you know, over the course ofthis essay, I will tell you all of the reasons, you know, and it's, there are, there are a
lot of plays like that.
And some of those are actually great plays, but, but they're not.
They don't really speak to me.
It's like, okay, I can read that you read that academically.
You read that in school and you don't ever actually see it for me.
I'm like, I don't ever need to see that performed.
(12:00):
just read it and I go, okay, cool.
I got it.
And I'm So for me, I always, I'm always drawn to pieces that have a stage presence, havean engagement, have as Camille was talking about the dialogue, how, much of it there is
and the rhythm and the music that exists in that is so engaging.
Um, and, and to me, I mean, you've, you've read it.
(12:21):
To me, that comes through on the page.
And I was like, this is, there's a rhythm to this.
There's a uh humor to this that you wouldn't think of when somebody describes the plotitself.
Like, okay, this sounds like a very serious, very stoic take on race and time and how haveour communities changed?
(12:43):
Yeah, racism.
it just, and it manages to touch that.
and comment on it without giving you a clean answer because they're acknowledging thatthere kind of is no clean answer, but just more shining a light on the circumstances as
they are making you laugh along the way, making you relate to characters that you didn'tthink you were going to relate to.
(13:09):
I think that one of the great things about both acts of the play kind of is, you know,it's two reflective halves in these two time periods.
One of my, for me, I read it and I was like, I'm gonna connect to, you know, I identified,I'm like, I think this is the one.
He's gonna be my guy along the way.
And then in the course of each hour of each act, I went, oh, there's, but now I'mconnecting to this person.
(13:36):
now I'm connecting to the person who's saying some really troublesome things even.
You you have your good, there's no good and bad in the play necessarily, but there arepeople that certainly have.
Viewpoints of their time if you will call them, you know, like uh, in act one we can flatout call it racist to be honest, you know, um, but, but even, but you know, we can't play
(13:57):
him like a villain and even, then in some of what he's saying, you're like, I get thepoint.
just, you just have such a terrible view on it.
Like you're, you're, you're the baseline.
What you're, what you're talking about might be true.
except that you're reflecting it through this lens that they are that this couple is lessthan.
um And that and that's fascinating and you have to reckon with that along the way.
(14:23):
My dog is behind me and she's she wants to get involved in the conversation.
And that happens.
That's I think in the act one is obviously easier.
That example is easier to separate from because like, well, it's 70 years ago.
It's obviously more overtly racist or overtly segregated and all of that.
But
And act two is where it starts to get money.
(14:43):
the Steve character becomes like, well, I do wish we could have this conversation moreopenly.
I do wish that we could just say things.
You don't say it the way he says it.
don't, you know, you don't, there's a, there's a, there's a tactfulness and a discoursethat is required.
But when, but, but you also can't just fully dismiss it.
(15:05):
You can't just be like, okay, that's an absurdity.
But I think the play challenges that everyone's viewpoints and coming into it, you'regoing to identify with certain people you're going to have.
There's really, really beautiful emotional moments that happen along the way.
um I call them the interstitial moments that, you know, there's a lot of the play is sixor seven people on stage at all times.
(15:31):
And so when, when that's happening, obviously the audience can look anywhere they want.
People are talking over here.
ah But on the other side of the stage, Camille and Kyle will be standing and they'll havethis whole moment, this whole listening, reacting moment to what's going on on stage that
is so full and so lived in and tells its own story um that I can't direct that.
(15:59):
I can't, I can't.
It's something that happens at point in the rehearsal process where that, that, I get themto like my job, you know, the director gets you to that point of rehearsal of
understanding of character analysis and all of that.
But I can't direct it for two reasons.
One, there's no way that I could actually just tell them to do that.
like, okay, so now while he's talking and then he says this thing, you guys need to havethis really poignant look at each other.
(16:22):
Because if I say that it won't happen organically, it'll become a different thing.
But
So it has to come from the actors and then once it's there, it just rounds out the stageand it fills out the story.
That's what I mean by the interstitial.
(16:44):
It's what connects the thing and makes it real and creates this really powerful moment.
there's a lot of that that happens, both in a poignant way and also in a very funny way.
There's a ton of...
Sometimes something will be going on and I'm laughing and we've been in rehearsals andthey're like, what are you laughing at?
like, it has nothing to do with you.
I'm looking at Kelly over here, just her face.
(17:04):
Like she's listening to you guys and reacting and it's hilarious and it has nothing to dowith what's going on.
So that's really special.
I have no idea what the original question was anymore because I've been talking andenjoying just telling the story, but I just love the play.
I'm a big fan of the play.
(17:24):
interesting that you say that because we hear Ben out in the audience laughing and we'relike Are you kidding me?
He's seen this a hundred times.
Why is he still laughing at this?
I mean like cracking up and he has a very distinct laugh So everybody on stage can hear itand we all go back in the dressing room like did you guys hear Ben laughing again?
(17:45):
And then he'll come back and tell us that like no, you guys didn't see when Kyle did sucha such a so-and-so or when Kelly did but I'm really
Oh, okay.
But it's all, it seems to be always new and fresh and uh that's good.
The other thing that you said, Ben, that I think is really important to bring out is thatit is funny.
(18:08):
um There are just hilarious moments in there and it's reminiscent of back in the day whenyou know, my grandma used to try to give us medicine that was horrible and she'd give you
something sweet to go with it to kind of mask the taste.
It's kind of those moments.
I think that humor helps.
um
(18:29):
helps the audience have those conversations and sit in those moments more comfortably emthan they would if it were just like you said been straight lecture or or what have you
and so those humorous moments are needed I think they're needed for the actors too becausesome of it is really heavy so when we get those moments we really just have fun with it em
(18:51):
but yeah I guess that is the thing to remember that it is funny and also when you saidabout
being, I forgot how you said it, but the thing that I've been telling people is that thereare no heroes and no victims.
uh
You know, there's nobody that you could point at and be like, okay, they're with a cleanwinner.
No, it's not like that.
um Everybody em has their moment.
(19:14):
They have their time to shine or to make their point.
But you could point to any one character and say, you know what, they got a point there.
You know, nobody was totally wrong.
Nobody was totally right.
So.
Um, yeah, it's complex, but it's really a fun ride and it sounds so contradictory, butit's true.
(19:37):
But that's what makes it special.
That contradiction is what makes it special.
I agree
I think that's what also makes it human too, is that like we're all full ofcontradictions.
Not everything is always black and white.
Like a lot of plays, you know, you have a hero, you have a villain.
That's what people love to see in stories.
But as humans, we all make mistakes.
We all do wrong things.
We all have reasons to be upset, you know?
(20:00):
And so I feel like when you're talking about this, all these moments and these conflictsand even just these, they're they're so human and they're so like they're almost lived in
characters that you're just like assuming these people that
are almost real in a way.
Yeah, that was always my goal, so to speak.
(20:20):
as a director, not just even with this play, but that's what I try to find in plays isserve the story that's there, but find the humanity in it.
um And this play is very, very human.
It's very, very, in yes, the serious ways, but also in just the really wonderful momentsthat happen.
There's love in this play.
There's pain in this play.
(20:43):
really, really funny humor that's, you know, some more slapsticky 1950s sitcom-y.
And then there's really funny humor that's really dark and makes you go, oh, okay, that'shilarious, but ooh, you know, like, ooh, yeah, yeah.
But it's, it really, it's, that's what I always strive for, is to find that humanity andto try to, to try to bring that out.
(21:08):
em the, this cast is...
done me so proud.
I mean, can't rave about him enough.
You know, Camille, when you mentioned about like, we call it in therapy, we call itsandwiching.
Like we tend to sandwich the hard truths with something that is easier to swallow.
And you know, you said about like your grandmother kind of trying to get you to take thenasty medicine, like that it is easier to reflect on those things when we don't have to
(21:33):
feel so weighed down by the fact that they are heavy things.
Like there's a lot of heavy topics in this, this play.
but if you can kind of laugh about it, you're gonna think about it a little bit morebecause we tend to remember those positive things than we do necessarily the negative
feelings as we leave a play.
I love that.
think it's those moments are also important because And I don't know if you've picked upon this bin, but there are moments that happen during the play where the audience isn't
(22:00):
sure whether they should laugh or not You know, and so you hear that Hesitancy or thatsnicker and so the moments that are just evident that they can laugh is almost like a
relief like okay I know I can laugh at that that was funny, you know, so I think that em
It's interesting to watch how humor plays a part in this piece, but I think Bruce Norriswas very wise to balance it that way.
(22:29):
And I think it's what allows the topic to be better absorbed because that humor is justkind of like, and there are certain characters, you know they're going to do something
crazy.
You just watch for it, you know, you just watch for it.
I'm thinking of Kelly in Act Two, you know she's going to say something wild.
So you just kind of wait for it and that's like your comic relief and that message stillgets in but it's cushioned or sandwiched as you say by that humor to help you digest it
(23:02):
easier.
Absolutely.
So, Camille I'm interested in the fact, you do play, like you said, you play two differentcharacters, you know, in like Act 1 and Act 2.
Do you have specific ways of developing those characters, or is it pretty much the same aswhen you, Act 1 to Act 2, of developing and making those characters real for you?
Or is it like, they're very distinct when it comes to making them?
(23:26):
They are very distinct due to the time period that both of them are in and um Ben workedvery diligently with me to understand the station of Francine in the first half.
So that was a very tough transition for me.
(23:46):
uh But.
What I realized in preparing for both of them is that they are more alike than different.
uh
both of them have oh an extraordinary amount of strength.
I think for Francine, her strength came in restraint.
(24:06):
She was able to take the hits of what was coming at her, understanding the station she wasin, absorb the microaggressions and the sarcasm and all the things that she had to take.
That took a strength to be able to endure that and not snap back, which could have at thattime cost her her life.
(24:27):
um And then fast forward to Lena on the other side Understanding that she had a strengthto where she had more freedom than Francine did it takes courage to speak up and to stand
ten toes down on what you believe and what you think is right, especially as a black womanand not be labeled um as the angry black woman or all the things that come with that so
(24:52):
both of them were very strong characters and both taught me a lot
prepare more for Francine I watched a lot of old Movies from that time in that era Evenwatched some old I love Lucy for whatever reason just to kind of put myself in that 50s
(25:13):
Mindset and then for current day In my head I'm like that wasn't that long ago.
I remember 2009 I just went back on my Facebook feed to 2009 and looked at what I wasdoing to it
that time and what I was wearing, what music I was listening to, to kind of...
ah
Remind myself of what that time was like and then thinking about that being Obama's firstyear I remember being very very excited and ecstatic that that had happened but also very
(25:47):
very afraid I remember African-Americans being Extremely afraid that he was going to behurt or you know assassinated or killed and there have been a lot of pieces about that So
I remember that time well, so I just kind of leaned into that
more so for Francine.
It was an interesting time of preparation, but again I applaud Ben for helping make thedistinction between those women and really hand holding me through formulating who those
(26:19):
women were going to be on stage.
And that leads me to ask you, like, so you have basically what is essentially like twoplays here, you have two different characters, you have a lot of things you're kind of
bouncing here.
When you walk into that theater, what is like, how do you, what's your process fordeveloping that from like a director standpoint?
That's a great question.
(26:40):
um
The simple answer is expanding on what I was saying earlier, trying to serve the story.
Bruce Norris has all the blueprints laid out.
If you're going to build a house, have the blueprints all laid out.
All you need to do is serve those blueprints.
So in a very reductive way, that's cool.
(27:05):
I just need to execute what's here.
um
the theory away or the more like you know instinctual way it is.
Dissecting the motivations of each character in each act um Because you and and andbuilding it from there and going okay, so here we are like you break you break everything
(27:26):
down most plays most plays ah You know, even if it's a two act play five act play one actplay whatever it is have multiple scenes like act one scene one act one scene two act one
scene three intermission This is act one one hour in real time act two one hour in realtime
time.
with seven people, so like finding the rhythm of that, finding the stopping points just togive them, if nothing else, just to give the actors something manageable to work on, uh
(27:58):
just took, let's just break it down.
Okay, cool, we have this little exchange between these two characters and it's half a pagelong, but okay, we're gonna work on that and fill that out and then you thread out from
there.
um
There are kind of two phases of a director's work as it pertains to uh the actors orrather the storytelling aspect of it, the non-technical stuff.
(28:23):
um And the first part of it happens...
Begins I should say long before you even hold auditions and it's it's the it's theanalysis the scripts uh scene study of it the Let's break this down.
What are the themes of this?
I have these two acts It's obviously been written so that the same actor plays to do, youknow So there's there's already some connection there that's given based on the casting
(28:51):
They're gonna see this actress knowing she played the person in act one, right?
So why is that?
Why did it?
Why was it written that way?
Why did he have that actress play this part and that part?
um You know, you see, really, you really study it in in that in that, you know, collegetheater one on one way.
um And that process continues throughout rehearsals.
(29:15):
There are like we were we were several weeks into rehearsal and I and I'd we'd be having adiscussion.
And this is the beauty of of the art.
We'd be having a discussion and.
just Camille because she's here would be you should be like hey what about this and I waslike my gosh it suddenly clicks and like that's what that is that I've been thinking about
for six months trying to like oh that's what you know that's that's what that magicalmoment happens so so that's the first part is coming at it from that I keep calling it the
(29:46):
academic side the intellectual side and then the second part is is the is in executingthat with the actors
So now we convey, OK, I have my own ideas for what that connection is or for what themusic of the piece is going to be.
How do we build that out?
How do you write a symphony note by note?
(30:07):
if we're going to, the symphony is already written, how do you get, know, we have to lookat the score and practice those notes.
The notes build in a certain way, a script builds in a certain way, and we find it.
um
And that music, the music that's in my head.
is translated through the instrument of the actors.
(30:29):
And my belief is a good director is flexible in that what's in my head is not alwaysright.
What's in my head is just what's in my head.
But what's in my head is not Camille.
I'm not her, I'm not built.
(30:50):
as her.
So I have something and I hear it and I'm like, okay, I think a trap as a director is tobe like, no, needs to sound, it's when you get into those line reading notes of like, no,
it needs to sound exactly like this.
You gotta say, da, da, da, da, da, da.
But then you hear her say it and go, my gosh, that her viewpoint on it, her intention, herunderstanding of this by way of her own instrument.
(31:15):
highlights something totally different and totally new or deeper or any pick your, pickyour, I don't know, pick your adjective there.
um And it's really wonderful.
for me, so my job is coming at it from all that analysis and then synthesizing thatanalysis through the actors um while also being flexible enough to trust, trust their art.
(31:42):
trust their instinct and their soul is going to come through to make this a real thing.
And it's as simple and as insanely complicated as that.
So then one final question for both of you and Kabeel I'm going start with you before Ilet you go is just with so many beautiful themes with so much depth, what are you hoping
(32:08):
audiences take away from this theatrical experience of Clybourne Park?
Hmm.
man, I got a list.
but one of the things that I do but one of the things that jumps out um is that progressProgress isn't linear um it comes with a lot of hills and valleys and bumps and bruises
(32:31):
and detours and
And it's not a straight line.
And if we're going to move forward as a culture, as a community, as humanity.
We've got to stay on the ride long enough with each other to hear each other out and tohear those conversations.
(32:54):
One of the things I learned back with a guy I used to date a long time ago, long, longtime ago, just in case my husband watches this, long, long time ago, is that he rode
motorcycles.
And when I would get on with him, he would say, you know, when I lean, you got to lean.
Because otherwise, if you're standing up straight when I lean,
(33:16):
the pressure against you will kill us both.
And what I learned and what I hope people take away from this is that we kind of got tolean into this together.
We've got to lean into trying to understand.
uh
racism and the gentrification issues and how we talk to each other and what we can learnfrom each other and some of the things that Kelly says at the end of her scene is if we
(33:47):
could just sit down and talk and have a meal and really get to know one another.
I hope people go away thinking that you know want to make a I want to make an effort.
I want to make an effort to know more, to do better, and to understand others withintentionality.
(34:11):
I know that was a long way around, but yeah.
That was a beautiful answer.
I think that is a huge and important takeaway from this play.
And Ben, I'm so sorry that you have to follow in that footsteps there because that wassuch a great answer.
Ben's gonna bring it trust
Well, I would just, I wouldn't, I wouldn't really say anything too different from that.
(34:33):
would just piggyback on that and say that, you know, um discourse is, is essential.
It's not, it's not important.
It is essential.
And we have to be able to talk to each other.
We have to be able to listen and hear things and hear things that are
that we don't agree with and hear things that make us uncomfortable and hear things that,you know, if we just, if we just stay in our bubbles, like that's, that's part of the
(35:02):
reason this play for me right now is so important.
um And then not to get, not to get political cause I, I, I am a political on, this, butcertain events in the last couple of weeks, ah timed out rather, I was like, our play
talks about that.
uh the willingness to hear somebody.
(35:24):
um
That you can't remove that.
You can't remove that from the equation.
um And as Camille brought up earlier, there are no heroes and there are no victims.
And therefore.
Nobody's right.
Nobody's nobody can sit on a soapbox and say, I am right on this subject and you all mustlisten to what I say and I don't have to listen to you.
(35:49):
It's like, no, I you you.
that's your viewpoint.
That's interesting.
Camille and I had some really wonderful.
conversations just in in in diving into it and she.
I consider myself a sympathetic and empathetic person of like I I I I have empathy forother people.
But I I only know what I know.
And so hearing other people's viewpoint is essential in this play really speaks to thatbecause you observe these people trying to communicate and trying to.
(36:18):
Oftentimes just trying to be right and that's.
And that's the mistake.
They're all trying to be right instead of trying to hear each other.
uh And we can all, I think we can all learn from that.
You know, I think that one of the things that we say, you know, I'm a couples therapist ontop of everything else.
So one of the things we talk about in couples therapy is, uh well, first off, do you wantto be uh right or do you want to be happy?
(36:39):
And then, but also, you, uh are you listening to understand and comprehend or are youlistening to just respond?
And I feel like a lot of times we are just listening to have a response, like you said,like people just want to be heard.
And so we're just responding, but we're not always understanding other people.
Yeah.
And we can always, we all, can always grow in that direction.
(37:00):
We can always, you can always reach deeper into understand.
That to me is what it is to be human, is to try to reach out and connect and understand.
Thank you so much, Camille and Ben, for being here and talking with me.
So Clybourne Park runs at Farmington Players now until
October 5th, so get your tickets now and we'll see you at
(37:20):
the show.
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