June 16, 2025 • 34 mins
It's time to roll out the red carpet and get ready to ride our horses of many colors into the Emerald City, as the North American touring production of The Wiz is almost here! As this iconic show makes its way to the Fisher Theatre as the final show of the 2024-2025 Broadway in Detroit season, we're excited to celebrate its 50th anniversary in the most Broadway way. Before its arrival, we spoke with the Tin Man himself, D. Jerome, about his time with this production.
In this exclusive Box Seat Babes interview, D. Jerome discusses what it's like adding the legacy of a show such as The Wiz, what drew him to wanting to audition for this role, and what being the Tin Man means to him! How does he prioritize his mental health on the road? Why are shows such as The Wiz, Hamilton, or MJ the Musical important to the Broadway landscape? Give this interview a listen to find out all this and more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Thank you so much for joining me today, sir.
(00:01):
How you doing?
I'm well, how's it going?
It's going all right.
We are so incredibly excited for the Wiz to arrive in Detroit.
You just mentioned that you just opened in Philly.
How has the tour been so far?
tour has been amazing.
The cities are loving it.
ah This story is timeless.
The music is timeless.
So it's been a great, it's been a joy to bring it back to the communities.
(00:24):
I mean, truly, The Wiz is celebrating 50 years.
like it is, when you say timeless, it's like that iconic show that, I mean, everyone seemsto love.
Yeah, you know, having been able to experience the Wiz uh with some of the originalBroadway cast members and uh working with George Faison uh and Andre De Shields in 2014,
(00:49):
just, it adds so much to what this means to me.
In 50 years, what a legacy, you know?
Think about what's been around for 50 years and the fact that the Wiz is still here.
It speaks.
So many volumes, so I'm excited to bring it back.
I mean, because when you think about it, especially in like the Broadway landscape,there's not a lot of shows that have lasted that test of time, you know, just people keep
(01:14):
coming back to it for a reason.
Yeah, yeah, I think I've done the math one point in time at one point in time and yeah,they're not a lot of shows, not a lot of shows at all.
So for those who maybe are unaware of what the show is about, can you tell us what is kindof the story of the Wiz?
Well, you know, The Wiz is uh not a spinoff.
I think it's a different iteration of The Wizard of Oz ah through a different culturelens.
(01:42):
So if you're thinking Black culture or African-American culture, you think about themusic, you think about...
different grooves and R &B and pop being infused in the story.
But the story is about a young girl who feels displaced, doesn't really feel like shebelongs.
uh She loses her parents uh and she's now staying with close relatives and she justdoesn't feel like she fits in.
(02:10):
And it takes us on this magical journey of self discovery, uh building community andfinding a place
finding a place to belong, finding her place.
And I think the moral of the story is that she finds out that she has all of the thingsthat she was looking for inside of her.
(02:30):
I think with going on that journey with a few of her friends that become her friends, youknow, the Scarecrow, the Tin Man, and the Lion, I think she finds community within those
friends.
And she...
she finds her place to belong and she realizes that all of the things that she's beenlooking for all along or ah reaching for have always been inside of her.
(02:56):
that story is, it's about overcoming and it's about choosing joy and realizing thateverything you need is right on the inside.
You know, you had mentioned about how this is kind of through a different, you know,cultural lens, but also when I was watching the movie preparing for the last interview I
did with Amitria I was like, this is also a modern take on that too.
(03:17):
And it's one that I think a lot of people can still see themselves in where the originalWizard of Oz from 1939, you can't really see yourself in necessarily.
ah But this one's more modern.
Absolutely.
And that's what I love about this take.
uh
You know, this is my second time doing the Tin Man and this iteration is just completelydifferent that it has such a fresh take.
(03:39):
It feels like the first time I'm doing it.
And because this work is so modern, Amber Ruffin did such a great job with this iterationuh and Shelly Williams does.
uh She's just a wealth of knowledge in the room as our director.
It's been great to bring this modern take to such an important message so that it doesn'tlose.
(04:02):
the impact that it definitely had from the beginning.
Absolutely.
And you had mentioned that you are playing the Tin Man.
What's kind of his journey and motivation through the Wiz?
His journey is one that I'm yet still discovering.
oh The Tin Man is, he's that guy that everybody loves to talk to.
(04:26):
His love language is service.
And so he loves to show up for his family.
He loves to show up for his friends.
He's a protector.
He's uh the party starter.
But he's also deeply, deeply emotional, no matter
if he shows it or not.
I think he feels in this particular iteration that he's losing a sense of something andquite frankly, he can't remember what it is because without the heart, you know, we don't
(05:01):
have a lot of grounding.
If you lose your heart, if you lose your purpose, or if you can't remember what thefeeling of having community and having family feels like, um sometimes we can feel a bit
unsettled.
his journey and the importance of his journey in this story is to help folks remember thatit's literally inside of you.
(05:23):
We can't...
choose our experiences in life.
whatever experiences come, find the lesson in that, we find what we're supposed to learn.
And most of the time it's awakening something in us.
And so I think the importance of his story is that he's reflecting to Dorothy that, hey,just because your family may not be physically here with you, uh
(05:52):
There are people in your life, there are circumstances in your life that are gonna come upthat are gonna remind you that they are still with you and that you can still live on and
you can still show the respect that you have for that relationship and you're gonna beable to see them throughout life.
The universe has a way to show us that.
we are on the right track.
(06:13):
And that's the importance of the yellow brick road in that story.
And so the Tin Man is there as a reflection of the heart that Dorothy actually has insideuh and the love that is still around her even though she might not be able to feel it.
Yeah.
What I love about that message is that, you know, a lot of people do suffer, you know,from grief of like losing people either from death or from just like relationships ending.
(06:38):
And so what you're saying is that community is there and that they're always there in someform, in some fashion.
And that's such a beautiful thing for people to be able to take away from the show.
I mean every night it's so it's so amazing to see the impact so we're excited to sharethat story and the fact that it is still a modern and fresh take that's the most beautiful
(06:59):
thing but I think people are gonna laugh until they cry and they're gonna cry untilthey're smiling and feeling good again so yeah it's a great show
So delivering kind of a message like that, I mean, that heavy?
Does it take a lot of energy out of you every night to be delivering that message togroups of people?
An important message.
Yeah, I think, you know, although heavy, it's funny because there's a song, I mean, well,there's a poem I know that talks about something being heavy.
(07:30):
You know, although it is, it is a, I wouldn't call it heavy.
I'd say that it has purpose.
The purpose of the story is to, is to, I say that particularly, particularly the Tin Man'sapproach.
He needed the acceptance or he needed the permission of community to be himself.
(07:55):
He needed the permission of his community, the friends that he meets on this journey.
He needed the permission to just to just be.
And so I think with this iteration being a little bit different, taking a differentapproach and maybe maybe driving home deeper messages, because it's what we're calling for
(08:16):
now.
We're in a tech.
tech age and modern age.
And so it's so hard to get down to the nuance of just feeling again.
And with this message, I think because it is, uh there are so many ideas that talk aboutmental health or so many things that talk about community and joy and overcoming.
(08:38):
I think this story.
Although it is a serious topic, the approach and the way it's written and the way it'sdelivered by these powerful and fantastic actors is something that can't be replaced.
And so I think with the message being something that is uh intentional and has such astrong impact, I think people will walk away feeling completely uplifted and uh energized
(09:06):
to keep moving forward.
And no better way to make somebody remember a message than to make them feel good aboutit.
know, like if they're thinking positively about it, they're going to walk away and then belike, oh, community is important.
Finding a group of people that care about you as much as you care about them is essentialin this world.
it always is and finding calm and finding family, know, I've been I've been exploring theidea of, you know, family and home even more now than I have before.
(09:36):
And I'm like, well, then what is that?
And is it it's not the same for everyone?
ah You know, so I think I think that show does that without giving away too much.
I think that that that's a good way to to to cement that.
So what is it like for you to put on uh this incredible costume?
I was looking at some of the stills and stuff like that.
(09:58):
This is a completely incredible costume.
What is that final step of kind of becoming the Tin Man to put on an incredible costume?
What is that like?
The final step uh is actually not a part of the costume.
I uh think it's more of a mental space that I wanna approach the Tin Man from.
(10:19):
And oftentimes it changes just a little bit, but the incredible costuming is just...
I mean, it is the icing.
It is the icing for me.
the elements, you know, between the silver and the bronze and the actual suit that goeson, it's like a tank.
I oftentimes I used to wear ice vest under my.
(10:43):
my Tin Man costume because it was so hot and I'm still just sweating the whole show.
So I'm surprised that the paint and the makeup is staying on.
So thank you to Dawn, the girl who does my makeup and the lady who does my makeup andthanks to Kirk for such a beautiful design of with the makeup.
(11:05):
But the last and final step to becoming the Tin Man is to really...
tap into the script and the direction.
He's been stuck.
He's literally been stuck.
the first sign of community, the first sign of someone being near, and he goes tohollering, you know, he's like, Hey, hey, hey, I need a little help.
(11:32):
And they help him and he's just so
He's so excited to have people around again.
So before I get onto the stage, I have to think about what would it have felt like to bestuck for 30 days or more, literally not being able to move.
(11:56):
So I have to play the double side of this coin, right?
An imaginative side and then a realistic side.
Of course, I can't be stuck for 30 days, no food, no water, you know, nothing.
But if I could imagine what it'd be like to be stuck for 12 hours, you know, and literallyto be stuck.
(12:17):
And then I have to approach my first line from that space.
And so it takes a little bit, you know, I do a couple of deep breaths, about tin deepbreaths prior to going.
prior to leaving my dressing room and just to settle and ground myself to see what can Idiscover today.
And so that's pretty much the final step oh into getting in the character for the Tin Man.
(12:41):
You know, I think that for audiences, they don't always get to see and or appreciate theamount of work that you have to like mentally do for things that will never even be said
on stage.
Absolutely.
There's such a lot of background work.
(13:01):
wasn't terrified to come and do this, but I was like, am I?
What am I doing here?
know, especially.
And so when I got the script, I was like, wow, this is going to be a challenge because I'mgoing to have to play both sides of a coin.
have to play.
I'm playing this mask of.
I have it together or I'm the guy that knows what to do or I can have the plan.
(13:24):
I'm here to support everybody.
But he's actually a little bit afraid because he's losing his feelings.
He's losing what it is to know love from his family, what it is to know how to feel.
uh so with that, he has to start from where he is with this community, with those folks.
(13:49):
Yeah.
Is there any pressure to bringing a revival such as The Wiz back to the stage?
always, always, always.
I think, you know, with it winning, you know, Tonys in 1975, with the revival happeningjust now with all of the phenomenal actors, uh I think when you're bringing it back to
(14:13):
stage, I think what you want to do is you want to pay homage and you also want to, uh youalso want to just...
bring a newness to the project.
know, nobody wants to be a carbon copy of something else.
I think everyone wants to put their twist on it, but I think the most important thing, asour director Shelly would say, is lean into the truth.
(14:40):
If we lean into the truth of the story, that's why it's been around for 50 years.
You know, that's why it makes sense.
The music, Charlie Smalls, it's literally the messages of community joy and overcoming andfinding a sense of belonging.
And I think those ideas go so far and the fact that they've been here for 50 years, Ithink it'll still be around in another 50 years.
(15:10):
Absolutely.
And you talked about how like everybody wants to put their own stamp on it.
So how does this production of the Wiz set itself apart from the previous iterations?
Oh, wow.
Oh, listen, I think, well, first we have to go, we have to go to these musicalarrangements.
um Jubair, our master of orchestrations, um you know, Alan Renee Lewis, who is also on theteam.
(15:39):
I think it is just, it's incredible, the music and the arrangements.
It's still, it,
It blends the original cast recording with um some of the reiterations.
I believe there was a 40th anniversary of the Wiz Live.
There are some versions there and then also the movie as well.
(16:02):
So, and Quincy Jones was on that project.
I think having all of those influences meshed into one.
It really connects the past, the present, and it also, with their new influences that theyput on the arrangements, gives sort of a, uh propels us into the future.
(16:25):
So this feels like something that will be uh recognized even after we've already done it,the same way.
uh
the iterations that have come before have done so.
I also have to speak to the choreography, Jaquell Knight.
With this particular rendition, I mean these dancers are going.
(16:46):
And when I say as a degree dancer, uh I am in awe every night.
I am like, yes.
And so, you know, my scarecrow went live on our page yesterday and was just like, whodances the most backstage?
It's me and Dorothy.
We are back there doing the choreography for sure.
(17:07):
We are dancing down with everybody.
so they just are exuding so much emotion, so much storytelling through the movement.
uh those are the things that keep this fresh.
It is so modern.
And then just how the actors are delivering things.
Everybody is so committed to telling.
(17:29):
the story in its truest form.
And I think that that is the thing that is setting this iteration apart.
You know, when I spoke with Amitria she mentioned uh that she's like, I'm a mover, but Idid not know I'd be moving this much, that there is so much choreography and dance.
And so it kind of lines up with what you're saying, that this show is, the choreography iskind of a really telling part of it.
(17:55):
Absolutely.
I mean, the joys and the struggles.
There's a scene that goes through multiple styles of dance and it shows the journey.
It shows how we have persevered through movement, how we've chosen to take um this artform and make it reach people that never thought they'd enjoy it or never thought that
(18:21):
they could see themselves in this work.
So it allows for community even in that regard.
We are breaking the wall and we're reaching the audiences and I hope they feel likethey're right up there with us.
Along that line with the numbers and the dancing stuff, do you have a favorite song ornumber from the show that you love to perform?
(18:42):
Well, I don't get to perform this song, but, so you wanted to meet the wizard.
That is my song.
But we really enjoy, I really enjoy, You Can't Win.
I really enjoy You Can't Win.
The crows are up there and they are going with the scarecrow.
(19:05):
One of the songs I enjoy performing, you know, we love a slide some oil.
We love that number.
mean, is Tiger Haynes' original, the original Tin Man on Broadway and Nipsey Russell, uhthe iconic portrayal of the Tin Man in the movie.
uh That number, it's one of the ones that's most challenging.
(19:32):
And I think that that's why I enjoy it the most.
uh Because I literally need...
them to help me move again.
I'm needing, I'm literally grabbing at them like, hey, hey, hey, can you get that?
Can you get that moment?
Can can you help me right there?
So it really opens up, it starts the conversation in terms of storytelling about, youknow, like how much we need each other.
(19:59):
So there are like so many double entendres going on in the show at the same time.
So I love that.
And you kind of mentioned about how this that challenged you but what do feel like spendthe like how how is the Wiz challenged you the most as a performer
That's a great question.
The Wiz has awakened something different.
(20:21):
Being oh in other shows, I've been primarily a dancer.
And so this project has called upon the actor in me.
And I've been so excited to get back to that and for that opportunity.
It has challenged me to...
to let go of what I thought I wanted to be when I became this actor or when I became aperformer on Broadway.
(20:50):
It has required me to let go and to lean into the truth of who I am and all of the facetsand nuances and all of the beautiful things that make Dee who he is.
I have to literally bring it.
(21:10):
to the work.
And that is a challenge.
That has been the biggest challenge because most of the time when you go to acting or yougo, you see a piece of material, the most we wanna do as actors is to make this thing
separate from who we are.
And in some cases that is what's needed.
(21:32):
But there are times where there's material that will come up.
and that you actually have to infuse yourself into.
And I always talk about this particular tin man not being completely tin He has like tinhere and then he's like brown and then he has tin and you can see the metal here and then
(21:55):
he's like brown.
So you can actually still see that.
He's a black man, but he's a black man made of tin, who has now has a spell on him and isa tin man.
And so I've learned, and the biggest challenge for me in this project has been to infuseor to use uh certain life experiences or just use who I am and where I come from as a way
(22:20):
to find the tin man.
So that's been the biggest challenge.
um That was a fantastic answer.
that sounds like you getting to infuse yourself into that role makes it a more.
Yeah, it makes for more believable role though if you get to infuse yourself into that.
Absolutely.
uh You had mentioned about being in some other shows, uh highlighting, you've been in MJthe musical and you've been in Hamilton.
(22:46):
Why do you feel like shows such as these and The Wiz are so important to the landscape ofBroadway and to tell these stories?
In this day and age, think our attention spans are just shortening and shortening.
As you know, we have the TikTok generation, we have Instagram, we have all of thesebeautiful and wonderful apps that help us, you know, excel in this modern age.
(23:10):
I think shows like Hamilton are extremely historic and are timeless.
And...
I'll say that I had a hard time committing to that project.
And I know a lot of people are like, what is wrong with you?
uh But because of the message, because of the storytelling, because of the show, becauseof what it's talking about and the progress that was so beautifully infused into
(23:44):
Lin-Manuel Miranda's work was just like, okay, this is about...
forward movement, this is about progress.
Okay, hmm, this is about a young guy coming from a really tough situation, know, losinghis mom and not knowing his father and having to move to a place, right?
(24:06):
Trying to find a place to belong.
That's still the same idea, that's the same story.
And then with MJ, MJ, you know, most folks want to consider it a jukebox musical.
But what I will say is that if you've ever seen MJ, I think people will walk away and say,wow, he had a life where his childhood was not regular because he was pressed into stardom
(24:34):
and he then had to live his life and he had to face.
some of his biggest struggles, some of those, as we call them, skeletons or demons, andsome of those challenges can be in close proximity.
His challenge was maybe standing up for himself and knowing that perfection is thebiggest, uh one of his biggest enemies.
(24:58):
uh Although he fought for that perfection, he was still able to reach and touch so manypeople in a timeless way.
uh
And he was still looking for that sense of belonging.
He realized, oh, I'm starting with the man in the mirror.
I'm going to start with me.
It's right here.
Everything I need is inside of me.
(25:19):
And I can choose.
I can choose to be who I want to be and continue to give that message.
And so shows like Hamilton, MJ, and The Wiz all have that lasting idea of self-discovery.
I feel that they all have that lasting idea of finding belonging.
and knowing that community, that was one of MJ's hugest messages, is finding theimportance of appreciating community and joy.
(25:48):
You know, having seen a lot of shows, especially as they came in tour here in Michigan, ahyou do, you, you, with your jukebox musicals, you start to have like a very, like an
expectation of like, you're going to hear these popular songs, but maybe the story isn'tas impactful.
But MJ was one those ones that I was like actually blown away by.
was like the story and you're taking like a microscope to, this, this person's life.
(26:11):
And you're finding out that he's not just what you've seen in the newspapers or, know,he's not just the star, but he's this human that's this life.
And so.
That was absolutely incredible to see from what would be considered a Jukebox musical.
Yeah, and how they just infused the story with the music.
thought it was just, uh I thought it was impeccable.
And, you know, working with that, with the Broadway cast and uh being able to covermultiple roles was something that I would never be able to replace because it was
(26:41):
challenging me even then to access that story through so many different point of views.
So that was great.
You know, with the Wiz, you're on tour.
So you're constantly moving from city to city.
um So as a psychologist, I always wonder how do you prioritize your mental health while onthe road?
(27:01):
You know, this was something that I was thinking about, honestly, earlier this year, and Iwas like, hmm, you know, I went, I did my final bow for MJ and went directly into
rehearsal the next day for Tin Man.
And I was like, hmm, you know, most folks would say that that's not good, that you shouldknow, maybe take a break.
uh But the way I prioritize my mental health is by making sure that
(27:28):
I set aside time to literally put all of the work away.
And I think for real, it's about finding what works for you.
Everything doesn't work for everyone.
So some folks like to read, some folks like to go to the gym, some folks like to go onvacation or travel and things like that.
(27:49):
How do I prioritize my mental health?
It's by making time for...
the connections in my life that refuel me.
And so it's talking to my really good friends and literally just laughing on the phone,literally getting on the phone and laughing about the simplest things or finding joy in
those moments.
(28:09):
I just celebrated my goddaughter's birthday and I was able to be there with her for thefirst time in over three and a half years.
And it meant so much to me.
It was like, wow, these are the moments that we miss out on.
because we are sacrificing a lot as actors on the road and we're committing a lot to theprojects which is very much uh you know admirable but it does take a toll on your mental
(28:35):
health so I make sure that I make time for the connections that that refuel me I am a gymbody I'm a gym guy so I do like to go to the gym not just to feel like I'm keeping up with
anything but to
make sure that I'm taking care of myself and that I commit a certain level of time tomyself and my growth.
(28:56):
oh And even if I go in there some days and I'm on the ground sitting crisscrossapplesauce, taking a couple deep breaths, rolling my neck around, sometimes I'll do a
couple of stretches and then I'll leave.
But as long as I made it there, that to me shows me that I'm prioritizing myself.
And so that's how I do it.
(29:17):
I love that part of your mental health uh journey while on the road is that message ofcommunity.
And then also prioritizing, you know, like people don't understand how important the gymis for your mental health, not just for, you know, physical health.
So it's great that you can do the both.
because even if you go and you do nothing, you at least acknowledge that this was a momentthat I'm going to come and this is what I did for me.
(29:44):
know, sit there listening to two songs and sometimes you get a lot done and sometimes youdon't do anything.
I think it's about acknowledging that I chose to go and take a little extra time.
I'll also say that writing and doing music for myself.
So I enjoy recording music and I love writing.
music but also just writing my thoughts out.
(30:05):
Sometimes releasing thoughts, releasing ideas onto a page.
uh Sometimes it helps to see what your thoughts are and so that's one of the other tacticsI use to choose uh to support my mental health on the road.
(30:25):
That's a fantastic one.
getting it out of your mind and onto a piece of paper is important.
It's important to see that visualization of it.
ah So what themes from The Wiz resonate the most with you?
Discovery.
I think Dorothy, I take that specifically from Dorothy's journey, I think about soon as Iget home.
(30:48):
ah She's, by the time, at the beginning of the show, she seems completely displaced anddisoriented and she's just like, where is, I don't know anything anymore.
My family's gone.
I don't know who I am.
don't know where I am.
don't know where I'm going.
I don't know if I belong where I am.
(31:09):
I don't know who I can trust, who I can call on.
But then by the time she gets to soon as I get home, she still feels unsettled or like shedoesn't belong.
But at this point, she's now in a new space.
She's now in a new place.
And she is literally like trying to figure it out.
(31:30):
And I think that that is
There's so much to say about her in soon as I get home.
She's beginning to want to discover, want to discover who she is or where her place inlife is.
I think that has been one of my biggest missions in life is to ignite passion within mypeers or ignite passion within the students I've taught or communities that I work with.
(31:59):
I want people to have ambition and to be ignited to know that there is something for you.
There is a purpose for you.
There is a passion for you.
There is something that the world needs from you.
And I think that as long as you are looking forward and trying to discover that, I thinkwe're halfway there.
I think we're halfway there as long as we know that there is something to discover.
(32:24):
And that's what I enjoy about her story.
I love that answer.
One final question for you is just, what do you hope audiences take away from thisproduction of The Wiz?
With having this production being around for 50 years and there are a few differentiterations, I hope that they take away from this that the truth...
It is heavy, but it's one of those things where it's like the truth is enough.
(32:47):
Yeah?
That what you have is enough.
And if you don't think it is, I would say take another look.
This show for me, if I was to talk to an audience, I'd say, hey...
Take another look.
Just take another look at it.
See it from this perspective.
Dorothy has a line and she says, you know what I think your problem is?
(33:08):
It's your perspective.
And so I would say this is a story of joy, community and overcoming.
And if you can't find the joy in life, I'd say take another look.
If you don't think you can overcome those situations, I'd say take another look.
And if you need permission to be who you are, just look at who's around you and who fuelsyour life, who fuels the happiness, who fuels your progress.
(33:36):
And whoever is in your circle in that way, that is your family, that is your community,and that's home.
You have to identify home in different ways.
So I'd say take another look and recognize that it's enough.
Yeah.
Thank you so much, for your time.
We greatly appreciate it and it has been so wonderful talking with you.
The Wiz arrives at the Fisher Theater as the final show of Broadway in Detroit's season onJune 17th and runs through the 29th.
(34:02):
So get your tickets now and we will see you there.
Thank you so much for joining me today, sir.
(00:01):
How you doing?
I'm well, how's it going?
It's going all right.
We are so incredibly excited for the Wiz to arrive in Detroit.
You just mentioned that you just opened in Philly.
How has the tour been so far?
tour has been amazing.
The cities are loving it.
ah This story is timeless.
The music is timeless.
So it's been a great, it's been a joy to bring it back to the communities.
(00:24):
I mean, truly, The Wiz is celebrating 50 years.
like it is, when you say timeless, it's like that iconic show that, I mean, everyone seemsto love.
Yeah, you know, having been able to experience the Wiz uh with some of the originalBroadway cast members and uh working with George Faison uh and Andre De Shields in 2014,
(00:49):
just, it adds so much to what this means to me.
In 50 years, what a legacy, you know?
Think about what's been around for 50 years and the fact that the Wiz is still here.
It speaks.
So many volumes, so I'm excited to bring it back.
I mean, because when you think about it, especially in like the Broadway landscape,there's not a lot of shows that have lasted that test of time, you know, just people keep
(01:14):
coming back to it for a reason.
Yeah, yeah, I think I've done the math one point in time at one point in time and yeah,they're not a lot of shows, not a lot of shows at all.
So for those who maybe are unaware of what the show is about, can you tell us what is kindof the story of the Wiz?
Well, you know, The Wiz is uh not a spinoff.
I think it's a different iteration of The Wizard of Oz ah through a different culturelens.
(01:42):
So if you're thinking Black culture or African-American culture, you think about themusic, you think about...
different grooves and R &B and pop being infused in the story.
But the story is about a young girl who feels displaced, doesn't really feel like shebelongs.
uh She loses her parents uh and she's now staying with close relatives and she justdoesn't feel like she fits in.
(02:10):
And it takes us on this magical journey of self discovery, uh building community andfinding a place
finding a place to belong, finding her place.
And I think the moral of the story is that she finds out that she has all of the thingsthat she was looking for inside of her.
(02:30):
I think with going on that journey with a few of her friends that become her friends, youknow, the Scarecrow, the Tin Man, and the Lion, I think she finds community within those
friends.
And she...
she finds her place to belong and she realizes that all of the things that she's beenlooking for all along or ah reaching for have always been inside of her.
(02:56):
that story is, it's about overcoming and it's about choosing joy and realizing thateverything you need is right on the inside.
You know, you had mentioned about how this is kind of through a different, you know,cultural lens, but also when I was watching the movie preparing for the last interview I
did with Amitria I was like, this is also a modern take on that too.
(03:17):
And it's one that I think a lot of people can still see themselves in where the originalWizard of Oz from 1939, you can't really see yourself in necessarily.
ah But this one's more modern.
Absolutely.
And that's what I love about this take.
uh
You know, this is my second time doing the Tin Man and this iteration is just completelydifferent that it has such a fresh take.
(03:39):
It feels like the first time I'm doing it.
And because this work is so modern, Amber Ruffin did such a great job with this iterationuh and Shelly Williams does.
uh She's just a wealth of knowledge in the room as our director.
It's been great to bring this modern take to such an important message so that it doesn'tlose.
(04:02):
the impact that it definitely had from the beginning.
Absolutely.
And you had mentioned that you are playing the Tin Man.
What's kind of his journey and motivation through the Wiz?
His journey is one that I'm yet still discovering.
oh The Tin Man is, he's that guy that everybody loves to talk to.
(04:26):
His love language is service.
And so he loves to show up for his family.
He loves to show up for his friends.
He's a protector.
He's uh the party starter.
But he's also deeply, deeply emotional, no matter
if he shows it or not.
I think he feels in this particular iteration that he's losing a sense of something andquite frankly, he can't remember what it is because without the heart, you know, we don't
(05:01):
have a lot of grounding.
If you lose your heart, if you lose your purpose, or if you can't remember what thefeeling of having community and having family feels like, um sometimes we can feel a bit
unsettled.
his journey and the importance of his journey in this story is to help folks remember thatit's literally inside of you.
(05:23):
We can't...
choose our experiences in life.
whatever experiences come, find the lesson in that, we find what we're supposed to learn.
And most of the time it's awakening something in us.
And so I think the importance of his story is that he's reflecting to Dorothy that, hey,just because your family may not be physically here with you, uh
(05:52):
There are people in your life, there are circumstances in your life that are gonna come upthat are gonna remind you that they are still with you and that you can still live on and
you can still show the respect that you have for that relationship and you're gonna beable to see them throughout life.
The universe has a way to show us that.
we are on the right track.
(06:13):
And that's the importance of the yellow brick road in that story.
And so the Tin Man is there as a reflection of the heart that Dorothy actually has insideuh and the love that is still around her even though she might not be able to feel it.
Yeah.
What I love about that message is that, you know, a lot of people do suffer, you know,from grief of like losing people either from death or from just like relationships ending.
(06:38):
And so what you're saying is that community is there and that they're always there in someform, in some fashion.
And that's such a beautiful thing for people to be able to take away from the show.
I mean every night it's so it's so amazing to see the impact so we're excited to sharethat story and the fact that it is still a modern and fresh take that's the most beautiful
(06:59):
thing but I think people are gonna laugh until they cry and they're gonna cry untilthey're smiling and feeling good again so yeah it's a great show
So delivering kind of a message like that, I mean, that heavy?
Does it take a lot of energy out of you every night to be delivering that message togroups of people?
An important message.
Yeah, I think, you know, although heavy, it's funny because there's a song, I mean, well,there's a poem I know that talks about something being heavy.
(07:30):
You know, although it is, it is a, I wouldn't call it heavy.
I'd say that it has purpose.
The purpose of the story is to, is to, I say that particularly, particularly the Tin Man'sapproach.
He needed the acceptance or he needed the permission of community to be himself.
(07:55):
He needed the permission of his community, the friends that he meets on this journey.
He needed the permission to just to just be.
And so I think with this iteration being a little bit different, taking a differentapproach and maybe maybe driving home deeper messages, because it's what we're calling for
(08:16):
now.
We're in a tech.
tech age and modern age.
And so it's so hard to get down to the nuance of just feeling again.
And with this message, I think because it is, uh there are so many ideas that talk aboutmental health or so many things that talk about community and joy and overcoming.
(08:38):
I think this story.
Although it is a serious topic, the approach and the way it's written and the way it'sdelivered by these powerful and fantastic actors is something that can't be replaced.
And so I think with the message being something that is uh intentional and has such astrong impact, I think people will walk away feeling completely uplifted and uh energized
(09:06):
to keep moving forward.
And no better way to make somebody remember a message than to make them feel good aboutit.
know, like if they're thinking positively about it, they're going to walk away and then belike, oh, community is important.
Finding a group of people that care about you as much as you care about them is essentialin this world.
it always is and finding calm and finding family, know, I've been I've been exploring theidea of, you know, family and home even more now than I have before.
(09:36):
And I'm like, well, then what is that?
And is it it's not the same for everyone?
ah You know, so I think I think that show does that without giving away too much.
I think that that that's a good way to to to cement that.
So what is it like for you to put on uh this incredible costume?
I was looking at some of the stills and stuff like that.
(09:58):
This is a completely incredible costume.
What is that final step of kind of becoming the Tin Man to put on an incredible costume?
What is that like?
The final step uh is actually not a part of the costume.
I uh think it's more of a mental space that I wanna approach the Tin Man from.
(10:19):
And oftentimes it changes just a little bit, but the incredible costuming is just...
I mean, it is the icing.
It is the icing for me.
the elements, you know, between the silver and the bronze and the actual suit that goeson, it's like a tank.
I oftentimes I used to wear ice vest under my.
(10:43):
my Tin Man costume because it was so hot and I'm still just sweating the whole show.
So I'm surprised that the paint and the makeup is staying on.
So thank you to Dawn, the girl who does my makeup and the lady who does my makeup andthanks to Kirk for such a beautiful design of with the makeup.
(11:05):
But the last and final step to becoming the Tin Man is to really...
tap into the script and the direction.
He's been stuck.
He's literally been stuck.
the first sign of community, the first sign of someone being near, and he goes tohollering, you know, he's like, Hey, hey, hey, I need a little help.
(11:32):
And they help him and he's just so
He's so excited to have people around again.
So before I get onto the stage, I have to think about what would it have felt like to bestuck for 30 days or more, literally not being able to move.
(11:56):
So I have to play the double side of this coin, right?
An imaginative side and then a realistic side.
Of course, I can't be stuck for 30 days, no food, no water, you know, nothing.
But if I could imagine what it'd be like to be stuck for 12 hours, you know, and literallyto be stuck.
(12:17):
And then I have to approach my first line from that space.
And so it takes a little bit, you know, I do a couple of deep breaths, about tin deepbreaths prior to going.
prior to leaving my dressing room and just to settle and ground myself to see what can Idiscover today.
And so that's pretty much the final step oh into getting in the character for the Tin Man.
(12:41):
You know, I think that for audiences, they don't always get to see and or appreciate theamount of work that you have to like mentally do for things that will never even be said
on stage.
Absolutely.
There's such a lot of background work.
(13:01):
wasn't terrified to come and do this, but I was like, am I?
What am I doing here?
know, especially.
And so when I got the script, I was like, wow, this is going to be a challenge because I'mgoing to have to play both sides of a coin.
have to play.
I'm playing this mask of.
I have it together or I'm the guy that knows what to do or I can have the plan.
(13:24):
I'm here to support everybody.
But he's actually a little bit afraid because he's losing his feelings.
He's losing what it is to know love from his family, what it is to know how to feel.
uh so with that, he has to start from where he is with this community, with those folks.
(13:49):
Yeah.
Is there any pressure to bringing a revival such as The Wiz back to the stage?
always, always, always.
I think, you know, with it winning, you know, Tonys in 1975, with the revival happeningjust now with all of the phenomenal actors, uh I think when you're bringing it back to
(14:13):
stage, I think what you want to do is you want to pay homage and you also want to, uh youalso want to just...
bring a newness to the project.
know, nobody wants to be a carbon copy of something else.
I think everyone wants to put their twist on it, but I think the most important thing, asour director Shelly would say, is lean into the truth.
(14:40):
If we lean into the truth of the story, that's why it's been around for 50 years.
You know, that's why it makes sense.
The music, Charlie Smalls, it's literally the messages of community joy and overcoming andfinding a sense of belonging.
And I think those ideas go so far and the fact that they've been here for 50 years, Ithink it'll still be around in another 50 years.
(15:10):
Absolutely.
And you talked about how like everybody wants to put their own stamp on it.
So how does this production of the Wiz set itself apart from the previous iterations?
Oh, wow.
Oh, listen, I think, well, first we have to go, we have to go to these musicalarrangements.
um Jubair, our master of orchestrations, um you know, Alan Renee Lewis, who is also on theteam.
(15:39):
I think it is just, it's incredible, the music and the arrangements.
It's still, it,
It blends the original cast recording with um some of the reiterations.
I believe there was a 40th anniversary of the Wiz Live.
There are some versions there and then also the movie as well.
(16:02):
So, and Quincy Jones was on that project.
I think having all of those influences meshed into one.
It really connects the past, the present, and it also, with their new influences that theyput on the arrangements, gives sort of a, uh propels us into the future.
(16:25):
So this feels like something that will be uh recognized even after we've already done it,the same way.
uh
the iterations that have come before have done so.
I also have to speak to the choreography, Jaquell Knight.
With this particular rendition, I mean these dancers are going.
(16:46):
And when I say as a degree dancer, uh I am in awe every night.
I am like, yes.
And so, you know, my scarecrow went live on our page yesterday and was just like, whodances the most backstage?
It's me and Dorothy.
We are back there doing the choreography for sure.
(17:07):
We are dancing down with everybody.
so they just are exuding so much emotion, so much storytelling through the movement.
uh those are the things that keep this fresh.
It is so modern.
And then just how the actors are delivering things.
Everybody is so committed to telling.
(17:29):
the story in its truest form.
And I think that that is the thing that is setting this iteration apart.
You know, when I spoke with Amitria she mentioned uh that she's like, I'm a mover, but Idid not know I'd be moving this much, that there is so much choreography and dance.
And so it kind of lines up with what you're saying, that this show is, the choreography iskind of a really telling part of it.
(17:55):
Absolutely.
I mean, the joys and the struggles.
There's a scene that goes through multiple styles of dance and it shows the journey.
It shows how we have persevered through movement, how we've chosen to take um this artform and make it reach people that never thought they'd enjoy it or never thought that
(18:21):
they could see themselves in this work.
So it allows for community even in that regard.
We are breaking the wall and we're reaching the audiences and I hope they feel likethey're right up there with us.
Along that line with the numbers and the dancing stuff, do you have a favorite song ornumber from the show that you love to perform?
(18:42):
Well, I don't get to perform this song, but, so you wanted to meet the wizard.
That is my song.
But we really enjoy, I really enjoy, You Can't Win.
I really enjoy You Can't Win.
The crows are up there and they are going with the scarecrow.
(19:05):
One of the songs I enjoy performing, you know, we love a slide some oil.
We love that number.
mean, is Tiger Haynes' original, the original Tin Man on Broadway and Nipsey Russell, uhthe iconic portrayal of the Tin Man in the movie.
uh That number, it's one of the ones that's most challenging.
(19:32):
And I think that that's why I enjoy it the most.
uh Because I literally need...
them to help me move again.
I'm needing, I'm literally grabbing at them like, hey, hey, hey, can you get that?
Can you get that moment?
Can can you help me right there?
So it really opens up, it starts the conversation in terms of storytelling about, youknow, like how much we need each other.
(19:59):
So there are like so many double entendres going on in the show at the same time.
So I love that.
And you kind of mentioned about how this that challenged you but what do feel like spendthe like how how is the Wiz challenged you the most as a performer
That's a great question.
The Wiz has awakened something different.
(20:21):
Being oh in other shows, I've been primarily a dancer.
And so this project has called upon the actor in me.
And I've been so excited to get back to that and for that opportunity.
It has challenged me to...
to let go of what I thought I wanted to be when I became this actor or when I became aperformer on Broadway.
(20:50):
It has required me to let go and to lean into the truth of who I am and all of the facetsand nuances and all of the beautiful things that make Dee who he is.
I have to literally bring it.
(21:10):
to the work.
And that is a challenge.
That has been the biggest challenge because most of the time when you go to acting or yougo, you see a piece of material, the most we wanna do as actors is to make this thing
separate from who we are.
And in some cases that is what's needed.
(21:32):
But there are times where there's material that will come up.
and that you actually have to infuse yourself into.
And I always talk about this particular tin man not being completely tin He has like tinhere and then he's like brown and then he has tin and you can see the metal here and then
(21:55):
he's like brown.
So you can actually still see that.
He's a black man, but he's a black man made of tin, who has now has a spell on him and isa tin man.
And so I've learned, and the biggest challenge for me in this project has been to infuseor to use uh certain life experiences or just use who I am and where I come from as a way
(22:20):
to find the tin man.
So that's been the biggest challenge.
um That was a fantastic answer.
that sounds like you getting to infuse yourself into that role makes it a more.
Yeah, it makes for more believable role though if you get to infuse yourself into that.
Absolutely.
uh You had mentioned about being in some other shows, uh highlighting, you've been in MJthe musical and you've been in Hamilton.
(22:46):
Why do you feel like shows such as these and The Wiz are so important to the landscape ofBroadway and to tell these stories?
In this day and age, think our attention spans are just shortening and shortening.
As you know, we have the TikTok generation, we have Instagram, we have all of thesebeautiful and wonderful apps that help us, you know, excel in this modern age.
(23:10):
I think shows like Hamilton are extremely historic and are timeless.
And...
I'll say that I had a hard time committing to that project.
And I know a lot of people are like, what is wrong with you?
uh But because of the message, because of the storytelling, because of the show, becauseof what it's talking about and the progress that was so beautifully infused into
(23:44):
Lin-Manuel Miranda's work was just like, okay, this is about...
forward movement, this is about progress.
Okay, hmm, this is about a young guy coming from a really tough situation, know, losinghis mom and not knowing his father and having to move to a place, right?
(24:06):
Trying to find a place to belong.
That's still the same idea, that's the same story.
And then with MJ, MJ, you know, most folks want to consider it a jukebox musical.
But what I will say is that if you've ever seen MJ, I think people will walk away and say,wow, he had a life where his childhood was not regular because he was pressed into stardom
(24:34):
and he then had to live his life and he had to face.
some of his biggest struggles, some of those, as we call them, skeletons or demons, andsome of those challenges can be in close proximity.
His challenge was maybe standing up for himself and knowing that perfection is thebiggest, uh one of his biggest enemies.
(24:58):
uh Although he fought for that perfection, he was still able to reach and touch so manypeople in a timeless way.
uh
And he was still looking for that sense of belonging.
He realized, oh, I'm starting with the man in the mirror.
I'm going to start with me.
It's right here.
Everything I need is inside of me.
(25:19):
And I can choose.
I can choose to be who I want to be and continue to give that message.
And so shows like Hamilton, MJ, and The Wiz all have that lasting idea of self-discovery.
I feel that they all have that lasting idea of finding belonging.
and knowing that community, that was one of MJ's hugest messages, is finding theimportance of appreciating community and joy.
(25:48):
You know, having seen a lot of shows, especially as they came in tour here in Michigan, ahyou do, you, you, with your jukebox musicals, you start to have like a very, like an
expectation of like, you're going to hear these popular songs, but maybe the story isn'tas impactful.
But MJ was one those ones that I was like actually blown away by.
was like the story and you're taking like a microscope to, this, this person's life.
(26:11):
And you're finding out that he's not just what you've seen in the newspapers or, know,he's not just the star, but he's this human that's this life.
And so.
That was absolutely incredible to see from what would be considered a Jukebox musical.
Yeah, and how they just infused the story with the music.
thought it was just, uh I thought it was impeccable.
And, you know, working with that, with the Broadway cast and uh being able to covermultiple roles was something that I would never be able to replace because it was
(26:41):
challenging me even then to access that story through so many different point of views.
So that was great.
You know, with the Wiz, you're on tour.
So you're constantly moving from city to city.
um So as a psychologist, I always wonder how do you prioritize your mental health while onthe road?
(27:01):
You know, this was something that I was thinking about, honestly, earlier this year, and Iwas like, hmm, you know, I went, I did my final bow for MJ and went directly into
rehearsal the next day for Tin Man.
And I was like, hmm, you know, most folks would say that that's not good, that you shouldknow, maybe take a break.
uh But the way I prioritize my mental health is by making sure that
(27:28):
I set aside time to literally put all of the work away.
And I think for real, it's about finding what works for you.
Everything doesn't work for everyone.
So some folks like to read, some folks like to go to the gym, some folks like to go onvacation or travel and things like that.
(27:49):
How do I prioritize my mental health?
It's by making time for...
the connections in my life that refuel me.
And so it's talking to my really good friends and literally just laughing on the phone,literally getting on the phone and laughing about the simplest things or finding joy in
those moments.
(28:09):
I just celebrated my goddaughter's birthday and I was able to be there with her for thefirst time in over three and a half years.
And it meant so much to me.
It was like, wow, these are the moments that we miss out on.
because we are sacrificing a lot as actors on the road and we're committing a lot to theprojects which is very much uh you know admirable but it does take a toll on your mental
(28:35):
health so I make sure that I make time for the connections that that refuel me I am a gymbody I'm a gym guy so I do like to go to the gym not just to feel like I'm keeping up with
anything but to
make sure that I'm taking care of myself and that I commit a certain level of time tomyself and my growth.
(28:56):
oh And even if I go in there some days and I'm on the ground sitting crisscrossapplesauce, taking a couple deep breaths, rolling my neck around, sometimes I'll do a
couple of stretches and then I'll leave.
But as long as I made it there, that to me shows me that I'm prioritizing myself.
And so that's how I do it.
(29:17):
I love that part of your mental health uh journey while on the road is that message ofcommunity.
And then also prioritizing, you know, like people don't understand how important the gymis for your mental health, not just for, you know, physical health.
So it's great that you can do the both.
because even if you go and you do nothing, you at least acknowledge that this was a momentthat I'm going to come and this is what I did for me.
(29:44):
know, sit there listening to two songs and sometimes you get a lot done and sometimes youdon't do anything.
I think it's about acknowledging that I chose to go and take a little extra time.
I'll also say that writing and doing music for myself.
So I enjoy recording music and I love writing.
music but also just writing my thoughts out.
(30:05):
Sometimes releasing thoughts, releasing ideas onto a page.
uh Sometimes it helps to see what your thoughts are and so that's one of the other tacticsI use to choose uh to support my mental health on the road.
(30:25):
That's a fantastic one.
getting it out of your mind and onto a piece of paper is important.
It's important to see that visualization of it.
ah So what themes from The Wiz resonate the most with you?
Discovery.
I think Dorothy, I take that specifically from Dorothy's journey, I think about soon as Iget home.
(30:48):
ah She's, by the time, at the beginning of the show, she seems completely displaced anddisoriented and she's just like, where is, I don't know anything anymore.
My family's gone.
I don't know who I am.
don't know where I am.
don't know where I'm going.
I don't know if I belong where I am.
(31:09):
I don't know who I can trust, who I can call on.
But then by the time she gets to soon as I get home, she still feels unsettled or like shedoesn't belong.
But at this point, she's now in a new space.
She's now in a new place.
And she is literally like trying to figure it out.
(31:30):
And I think that that is
There's so much to say about her in soon as I get home.
She's beginning to want to discover, want to discover who she is or where her place inlife is.
I think that has been one of my biggest missions in life is to ignite passion within mypeers or ignite passion within the students I've taught or communities that I work with.
(31:59):
I want people to have ambition and to be ignited to know that there is something for you.
There is a purpose for you.
There is a passion for you.
There is something that the world needs from you.
And I think that as long as you are looking forward and trying to discover that, I thinkwe're halfway there.
I think we're halfway there as long as we know that there is something to discover.
(32:24):
And that's what I enjoy about her story.
I love that answer.
One final question for you is just, what do you hope audiences take away from thisproduction of The Wiz?
With having this production being around for 50 years and there are a few differentiterations, I hope that they take away from this that the truth...
It is heavy, but it's one of those things where it's like the truth is enough.
(32:47):
Yeah?
That what you have is enough.
And if you don't think it is, I would say take another look.
This show for me, if I was to talk to an audience, I'd say, hey...
Take another look.
Just take another look at it.
See it from this perspective.
Dorothy has a line and she says, you know what I think your problem is?
(33:08):
It's your perspective.
And so I would say this is a story of joy, community and overcoming.
And if you can't find the joy in life, I'd say take another look.
If you don't think you can overcome those situations, I'd say take another look.
And if you need permission to be who you are, just look at who's around you and who fuelsyour life, who fuels the happiness, who fuels your progress.
(33:36):
And whoever is in your circle in that way, that is your family, that is your community,and that's home.
You have to identify home in different ways.
So I'd say take another look and recognize that it's enough.
Yeah.
Thank you so much, for your time.
We greatly appreciate it and it has been so wonderful talking with you.
The Wiz arrives at the Fisher Theater as the final show of Broadway in Detroit's season onJune 17th and runs through the 29th.
(34:02):
So get your tickets now and we will see you there.
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Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.