July 15, 2025 • 30 mins
We explore ambivalent attachment, where caregivers' anxiety and overprotection create uncertainty in children, preventing them from developing confidence and decision-making skills. This parenting approach, often seen in helicopter parenting, stems from good intentions but teaches children the world is unsafe.
• Ambivalent attachment develops when caregivers are anxious, overwhelmed or uncertain in their responses to children
• Children with this attachment style appear visibly anxious and often look to caregivers before making decisions
• These children develop internal beliefs that they are unsure, others are confusing, and the world is unsafe
• Helicopter parenting prevents children from experiencing necessary stressors that build resilience
• Children need "predictable, moderate, and controllable" stress to develop confidence
• Creating opportunities for safe failure helps children learn to navigate challenges independently
• Parents should focus on developing self-awareness about their own anxiety triggers
• Ambivalently attached children may be more vulnerable to peer pressure and substance abuse as adolescents
• Adults with ambivalent attachment often struggle with decision-making and may seek controlling relationships
• Healing involves consistent caregiving, creating opportunities for building confidence, and gradually increasing stress tolerance
Join us next week as we discuss disorganized attachment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Brain Based Parenting, the Boys Ranch
podcast for families.
We all know how hard being aparent is, and sometimes it
feels like there are no goodanswers to the difficult
questions families have whentheir kids are struggling.
Our goal each week will be totry and answer some of those
tough questions, utilizing theknowledge, experience and
(00:24):
professional training CalFarley's Boys Ranch has to offer
.
Now here is your host, calFarley's Staff Development
Coordinator, joshua Sprock.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome back and thank you for joining us today
as we talk about brain-basedparenting.
Today, we're going to continuetalking about our attachment
styles.
Specifically, we're going todiscuss ambivalent attachment.
To do that again, I'm joinedtoday by Sam Cerna, hello,
catherine Clay Hi.
And Mike Wilhelm Howdy, josh.
Well, today our question isabout ambivalence.
Ambivalence is defined as beingunsure, undecided or hesitant.
(00:58):
So my question is what is yourresponse when you're asked for
your input on where a groupshould go eat out?
Are you decisive or do you gothe I don't know, I don't care
route?
So for me, I always have anopinion and I know where I want
to go, but I'm always the Idon't care or I don't know, but
you really do care, I do care.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
So then you're just disappointed, yes.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I'm always disappointed I know that's rough
always disappointed, I feellike for me.
I go out to eat so infrequentlythat, if there's the
opportunity, I already knowwhere I want to go.
So I guess I am more decisive.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
So you'll tell a whole carload of people this is
where we're going.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, here's the deal .
If I'm going out to eat, it'salready been planned.
So who wants to go eat at thisplace?
At this time.
If it's me by myself, that'sfine.
If it's a group of people thatwant to eat there, that's also
fine.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Yeah, I'm generally just trying to do whatever
everybody else wants to do.
I think I'm a lot like Josh inwhere I kind of want to go eat a
burger, but I don't want tojust say it because maybe the
other people don't want to go tothe same burger place I want to
go to Because you're thoughtful.
Yeah, sometimes I get snaked togo my way, that's good.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
If I'm in a carload of people that I'm not normally
with, I don't want to oversteer,but I will put it out, float it
out there that if they'rereally asking, really want to
know, I'd rather not eat fastfood.
Oh, yeah, there that if they'rereally asking, really want to
know, I'd rather not eat fastfood.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Oh, yeah, but and then.
But I do have other preferences, but I'll just let that up to
the car to decide.
I did hear that if someonementions like three different
places that they want to eat,the first place they mention is
usually the place they actuallywant okay so that's.
I don't know if that's actuallywhen.
I just heard that on the radioor something that's pretty
awesome.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
My wife won't ever.
She'll always say you decide,so okay, finally I'll decide.
Well, I'm not sure I want to gothere, pick another one.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, that's rough.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
I'm not actually ambivalent then, because when I
let my wife decide it, I'm likeI don't really want to go there.
I don't really want to go there, I don't really want to go
there.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
All right, so let's talk about ambivalent attachment
.
What exactly is ambivalent?
Speaker 5 (03:16):
I mean ambivalence is that, like you said earlier,
you may be just indifferentabout what to do or about the
situation.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah Well, and I think that's where the title,
the ambivalent attachment title,comes from.
The caregiver's approach isstressed, anxious, overwhelmed,
when they're caregiving, andthat produces ambivalence in how
to respond, what to do next inregard to the child's behavior.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
So, because of that, what are some of the surface
level behaviors associated withambivalence or that attachment
style?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I think the child would feel a little bit frozen,
not knowing what to do next,waiting on their caregiver to
signal what to do.
We've talked just informally inhere about that helicopter
parent type title, where theparent's always watching and so
the kid's on edge trying tofigure out how to respond, what
to do, and then that the childmight look anxious, unsure,
(04:02):
unconfident.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Yeah, these are the kids that are probably just
going to hang around with theirparents all the time and not
want to leave their side becausethe world is maybe a little
unsafe for them.
They're very unsure aboutwhat's next?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, I think that anxiety is prevalent in that.
So what do caregivers youtalked about helicopter parents
what do ambivalent parents looklike?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
You know, I think helicopter parents are
ambivalent parents, though theintent is probably pure and what
they believe is best for thechild or safe for the child ends
up being more the message isthat the world isn't safe or I
have to take, I have to ensureyour safety, I have to keep you
from harm, I have to ensureyou're not stressed type of
(04:42):
stuff, and so then that theparent is kind of just like
putting a kid in a bubble andnot letting them experience
either stressors that arehelpful or, you know, failures
that are safe, things like that.
You know, we were talking aminute ago about Dr Bruce Perry
and I think there is this notionthat stress is bad and we need
to avoid stress and what we dothe best, we do everything we
(05:05):
can to avoid stress, and I thinkthat's a piece of what the
parent, the ambivalent typeparent believes.
But what we know, based off ofBruce Perry, is that stress is
not bad.
In fact, the stress isnecessary.
The stressors are necessary aslong as they're predictable,
moderate and controllable,because those types of stressors
lead a child to be resilient.
(05:26):
So I don't know what do y'allthink?
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I'm wondering.
This is a question I have forthe three of you being the
experts.
Avoidant, insecure attachmentstyle seems to produce an
avoidant attachment style.
Caregiver would seem to producean avoidant attachment style
child.
Now this seems different to me.
This seems like a verycaregiver with a strong need for
(05:52):
control is going to produce anambivalent attachment style
where that caregiver themselvesmay not have ambivalent
attachment style.
That's a question, that's not astatement.
Is that right or doesambivalent do some ambivalent?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
I don't think that there's a hard and fast answer
to that.
I think you could probably lookat a lot of parents' histories
and they could fall into any ofthese categories.
There's just so many variablesthat we don't have or can't
explain.
I kind of think what you'resaying makes sense to me,
because the control that you'resaying that comes from the
ambivalent attachment, thehelicopter, the this is the way
(06:28):
you do it, you have to stay safecomes from anxiety, fear, you
know whatever word, and whenwe're feeling fearful or we're
feeling anxiety, we control.
What can we control?
Well, I can make sure mydaughter or my son doesn't
experience an adversity or fearor whatever, and then that
creates in the child kind ofsimilar stuff, you know fear to
(06:50):
move forward, fear to experience, fear to explore.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
That makes a lot of sense, catherine, in terms of
just thinking about Christianspiritual formation in people.
When we're acting out of theworst of ourselves, it's usually
fear, and it'll tend to comeout of one of three different
areas and different combinations, but either a need for power,
control, or a need for safety,security, or a need for
(07:15):
affection, and then again andjust varying combinations, but
you could see lots of differentcaregivers that acting out of
fear from one source or another.
I'm needing to control things.
This child is one of the thingsthat I need to control, and
what you're saying is we'regoing to arrest their
development if they're not ableto experience some mistakes on
(07:37):
their own, some venturing out,scraping a knee, that sort of
thing, right?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
As you're speaking, I'm thinking of, like there
might be a stage in life whereit feels normal for a kid to
look back at a parent or acaregiver to say can I proceed,
should I go this way?
Is this safe?
And I think that there'sprobably a season that that's
appropriate.
But the difference being isthat the caregiver does that
style the whole developmentright.
So like a 13-year-old shouldprobably not be looking back at
(08:03):
a parent to see should I crossthe street or is this safe?
Like they need to develop thatinternal process and that
internal skill so that they canbe independent of that caregiver
.
And if that's not developed,then I would imagine kids that
grow up with this type ofcaregiving lack the ability to
make decisions or be independentor develop into adulthood
(08:25):
without needing some reassuranceor some help making decisions
or just caregiving constantlythroughout life yeah, and these
two kids, I mean, like you, youasked or said earlier uh, it's a
, it's, it's a contrasting.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
the difference is that you know the, the kid we
talked about last time, oh, theavoidant, the avoidant child.
Sorry, it's going to seemconfident, it's going to seem
secure and this child is notgoing to seem that way Very
anxious and maybe, like you said, try to take control of a
situation and they might get ina little trouble over it because
(09:01):
, right, their need and anxietyis going to have to create them.
Maybe, you know, maybe theymight take over the class, or,
or you know, or anything likethat, where the other child is
is going to just maybe just becompliant and seem confident.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
This child will not seem confident I think you'll be
able to see it visibly too yeah, you know like we were saying
with the avoidant, there theymaybe look kind of cool, calm,
collected.
I think this kind of childyou're going to be able to see.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
You'll see and feel.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yes, the stirring.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Meet that child with that primary caregiver and ask
the child a question thatchild's probably going to have.
The deer in the headlights lookand then look at the caregiver
right, Like I said.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
There's a time that you would think well, that's
pretty normal.
But if that's a 15-year-oldbeing asked what do you want for
dinner or what do you want offthe McDonald's menu, and the
child is deer in headlights,looks at the parent, then that's
not.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
I was thinking, Sam, how many times have you seen
that interviewing a couple andasking questions, and one of the
two is the one that does allthe?
answer and then you finallyreach that point that you really
do want to draw something outof the other, so you really are
directing towards the other.
And that's when you realize, oh, you watch, and that person
(10:07):
will just look to the other, tothe partner, and won't answer
and it's like, okay, this is a,this has a weird feel and that
person is not secure aboutanswering on their own.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
So we grow into it as adults, don't we?
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Yeah, we do.
It surely does affect youradulthood.
Imagine these two differentstyles getting together as
parents how that affects thekids.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
That's interesting, interesting conversation.
So I was thinking too.
You guys talked about how thesedifferent parenting styles look
.
I think the intention of thoseparenting styles is interesting
to contrast.
So an occurer and an ambivalentI think intention of those
parenting styles is interestingto contrast.
So in a cure and a ambivalent,I think have similar intentions.
They're trying to get the kidsneeds met in that security the
secure attachment person is.
They have that, I don't knowsafety and security built in,
(10:52):
whereas the ambivalent parentthey have the right intention
but the kid never feels thatsense of relief because that
anxiety overrides their goodintention.
Do you think that's going toimpact that child's behavior?
Speaker 5 (11:03):
Yes, because I believe that when a kiddo can,
or even a young adult, let's saya teenage child, they're so
anxious, they have thisingrained need to control the
environment, if they can.
Because of that need, they'reunsure or they can even be
frozen in place and they'lldon't know what to do.
And so there's a ton of way youcan see these things manifest
(11:27):
in their life, and I, you know,I think of, and I was thinking
about the caregivers, all thesedifferent secure, attached
caregivers.
I used to watch my kids play onthe slide right and this old
park we used to have in myhometown.
It was kind of a tall slide, youknow, and it was metal, and I
remember watching my kids, youknow, climb that slide and my
guts were inching Right, and soI would imagine that I was a
(11:47):
secure parent.
I let them actually climb it.
Yeah, and my heart's in mychest and they're sliding down.
They survived it, yay, pray.
They're going to fall off theslide.
All these anxieties are goingto happen.
This ambivalent person wouldprobably not even let the child
go up there, or they'd go upthere with them, which?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
maybe that's not a bad thing.
We're avoiding that totallyWell, and I like that you
brought that up, because I thinkthat that's kind of like what
Josh said it's a slippery slopeor slide.
It's a slippery slide betweenthe secure and the ambivalent.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Just completely intended.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Because I do the same thing with my kids.
You know.
I've had to retrain myself tosay so.
I have my two-year-old and Idid it with my five-year-old too
.
But I had to retrain myself tosay, instead of say that's not
safe when he would climb or shewould climb, or whatever, I
would say hey, bud, or hey,honey, is that stable, is that
(12:41):
unstable, is that?
And so I would.
The change in my language andthe change in my approach,
because I felt that internallike, oh my goodness, my child's
about to fall off of whatever,when really it was like, you
know, very minimal risk, and Ichanged the way that I
approached it, gave my child theopportunity to say is this
stable?
Is this something I shouldclimb on or something I should
sit on?
Is this something I should walkaround or not walk on at all?
And that process of learning,that barrier, that stressor,
(13:04):
whatever it was, was nowinternalized, rather than me
being the one that had to pickout the harm, or me be the one
to say that's not safe or that'ssafe, because if that's not
internalized, they will need meto do that forever and that's
not ideal.
It's kind of like whatyou're're saying letting them
experience.
A stressor that's predictableand moderate and controllable,
like this giant slide you'retalking about with you standing
(13:25):
by, will teach them one way orthe other that this is a good
slide or bad slide or whatever.
You know.
Speaker 5 (13:30):
Whatever the barrier stressor is, whatever it is you
know, I really like how you, howyou um said that you, you tell
them what to expect and havethem use their senses to feel,
because I, you know, right, likeI said, that's all part of the
teaching process not easy.
I mean, wouldn't that, wouldn'tthat increase their confidence
right in life?
Right, because when you're notaround, right.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
They have to be able to make decisions correct right,
they can feel it.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
Does this feel okay?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
this does not feel okay, you know yeah, and it's
endearing to hear like a littleone say this is stable, this is
unstable I'm like I think I'vedone at least this thing right,
this little piece I've done.
Okay, you know becauseparenting is difficult.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Well, I, gotta say I am a helicopter parent, okay
good, this is what's here.
Some full disclosure here youworked hard for that title too.
You're not wrong.
So one of the things my wifealways tells me, though, is that
some point our daughters aregoing to go to college, and like
am I?
I going to be there at collegeto make sure.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Did you say yes, well , I do.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I think that is actually what I want to do but,
local, but I mean, at some pointthey're going to have to fly
out of the nest and if theyhaven't learned to fail in a
safe environment, then they'renot going to be able to be
successful once they leave us.
So maybe you guys could talkabout a little bit what does it
mean to fail in a safeenvironment?
How can we help kids do that?
Speaker 5 (14:46):
So Catherine touched on earlier about I should just
let you say it but creatinginstances in which they can go
explore and increase a littlebit of stress.
So you start small.
You open a child's world, so atfirst they're a lot inside with
you.
And when you open a child'sworld, right, so at first
they're a lot inside with youand when you take them outside
they're near you and that's allnatural, right.
But soon, right, letting themgo a little further from you,
(15:08):
that where they can still seeyou, um, and and try new things
and explore and touch and um,you know, so they can.
So what I'm saying, I guess istoo, is of um, if they're trying
to build something or ornavigate an obstacle and maybe
they fall off, hopefully it's afoot off the ground and they
fall down.
Well, they failed, but here I amto be there with them and tell
them how to do it better, or, or, or how to navigate.
(15:30):
Yes, the thing you know.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I think it's also the , the difference being that,
when they do fail, that we lookat it.
I think it's easy and maybeI've, probably, I think I've
probably done this where, whenthey fail, they fall and get
hurt, let's say, and I'll, it'sin my gut to say, see, but I
told you don't jump on that ordon't climb on that and I'm
guilty, I've done that.
The better response that I tryto say is okay, so what'd we
(15:52):
learn here?
That was unstable or whateverit may be.
Rather than when you fall, youfail and we don't do that, we
don't try that again, rather,climb again.
Let's just do it a little bitdifferently, maybe wear better
shoes or whatever it may be, andthen there's learning inside of
that.
I think that feels safe, right.
I know I can go and dosomething a little risky or
something that's explorative,and if it works, great.
(16:14):
If it doesn't, I'll come backand try to figure out what went
wrong and how to do itdifferently.
Again, lots of internal work asa parent to be able to do that,
because when I say, but I see,I told you don't do that, that's
my own anxiety and fear comingout and I don't want to put that
in my child, you know.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
And I also think it's about creating challenge, right
?
So I took my grandkids to apark the other day, and that's
where you really learn about thekids, right?
Sometimes I think they're superbrave, right, sometimes.
Sometimes I think they're superbrave and sometimes I think
they're scaredy cats, and I amvery almost 100 surprised
because I'm obviously I'm notwith my grandkids all the time
right um so, and I don't takethem to the park all the time,
but when I do, here's where Inoticed so I had.
(16:50):
There was a.
One of my grandsons used to bescared of everything and now
he's jumping and running andclimbing and doing it's
incredible he was so fearful andand to see this growth he's had
, and now my other grandson, whoI thought was braver, um, we
were jumping some of the leappads, that kind of ascend and he
wouldn't do it and I'm likeit's not even that high right
you know so then I'm like okay,so how do I challenge him here?
(17:13):
hey, well, let me hold your hand, can you take a step?
And then if in at some point,if they're not comfortable,
that's where I I got to make thedecision.
How much worth is it today?
for me to push this?
Or should I let them fail todayand that's OK, yeah and so and
right, and then we try againnext time, or I have his brother
model it, so Right.
So there's tons of ways that wecan set up that it's safe that
(17:34):
if he was to fall he's not goingto get hurt.
This playground is, it's notlike?
Our old playgrounds rightthere's spikes at the bottom of
everything, right, but I thinkthat's a cool way to have them
fail in a safe environment.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Yes, that's a good example.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
That's what Sam, what you and Catherine just shared,
and Josh, that really importantfor faith development of kids
and here's why An ambivalentattachment child with anxiety
might find themselves in asituation where they're going to
tend to be.
They'll tend to struggle morewith the God piece, but whenever
(18:09):
they do come to faith or toconversion it would be the
classic what we would call thetwice born, and usually there's
more emotion involved and itreally is a way to try to
relieve anxiety.
Doesn't mean it's not authenticwhat's going on, necessarily,
but it has that element Now thatfaith is going to be less
resilient because, as we know,if you read the book of Job or
(18:32):
you read through most of theBible, life happens, sometimes
in an unfortunate way and thatchild that's never learned that
sometimes things aren't safe,sometimes bad things happen,
that hasn't had some of thatpatterning, they're going to
really struggle with the faithpiece.
That faith piece will be lessstable.
And something that I've learnedas a chaplain here in
(18:54):
residential child care communitythat I didn't know and maybe
there's some listeners that havetaken children into their home
that have come from hard places,kids that have ambivalent
attachment styles.
We need to really be patientand wise and loving with those
children and if we're hasty withsome kind of religious
intervention, those childrenjust to relieve anxiety will
(19:18):
comply.
And whatever it is theexpectation is, if we round them
up and take them to a big youthevent that has a hellfire and
brimstone altar call, well, thatchild is going to need to
relieve that anxiety and they'regoing to fall right in line
with that.
Is that going to be somethinghealthy as far as faith
formation?
I'd question that.
In fact I think it might besomething harmful rather than
(19:41):
healthy going on.
So we need to be real careful.
That child with that ambivalentattachment style coming from a
hard place might seem supercompliant as well if we're
helicopter parenting and thatcompliance might not be growth
at all.
So yeah what you've shared isvery helpful in my thought, so I
appreciate what you both said.
(20:01):
Thank you, mike.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So let's look at if we have a caregiver who has the
correct intentions, trying tomeet the child's needs, but
overwhelmed with those feelingsof anxiety, uncertainty,
nervousness.
Or is that helicopter parentthat's going to shape how we see
the world?
So if this is my template, whatwould my I am statement be?
Here I am.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Unsure An.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
What would my I am statement be here?
I am Unsure, anxious, yeah,confused.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
Others are.
Well, they're confusing.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Or maybe scary.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yeah, anxious.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah, the world is Unsafe, Unsafe and therefore I
must Hide.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah, do anything.
Control, be safe, control.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
And I think you're just going to be paralyzed by
fear.
I've heard it said that thiscurrent generation is one of the
most anxious generations ever,and I think it's because people
like primary caregiver,helicopter parent moving into
(21:01):
adolescence or settings wherethey're not around that
caregiver?
Speaker 4 (21:04):
are they going to be more susceptible to peer
pressure or less?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
so I've heard actually a lot of research on
that.
Peer pressure and substanceabuse is actually pretty high in
these because they're in thestate of anxious anxiety all the
time and they've neverexperienced a sense of relief.
So when they have eitherinappropriate relationships or
substance abuse it has adisproportionate effect on that
(21:29):
relief.
They have that ah moment thatthey've never experienced before
, and it becomes, that becomesan addicting experience.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Well, and I think, aside from like the natural
process and development ofkiddos, the age that you're
talking about, it's like a bombsetting off for peer pressure,
(22:04):
belonging, all that stuff Cominginto adolescence being even
more unsure than you already areas an adolescent you know, or
looking for someone to tell youwhat to do next.
You know, it's just such avulnerable time for that.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
Yeah, mike, and you said a good word.
You said low resilience and youknow people who are low
resilience are more susceptibleto things they cannot take a hit
maybe than a more resilientperson could.
And what builds resilience isadversity right.
And if kids don't get to go outand experience things as young
kids or even teenagers, itbecomes harder to take on
(22:41):
anything that might bechallenging, and I don't mean
like work stuff I'm talkingabout.
You know, those hits that wetalk about a death in the family
could be very impactful tothese kids or these adults, even
because they just don't havethe toughness built up to cope.
So they're going to find othercoping mechanisms to do so, to
help relieve that stress.
(23:02):
And that was so insightful.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
I never thought about that, you know, because it's
similar to the previousattachments that we talked about
was that these people couldalso sink into any kind of
addiction or video games ortechnology, also because it
feels good that release and allthat Because, right, it's all
about the stress here, that thatstress is very high I have
noticed that from a pastor'sviewpoint, watching the
(23:26):
ambivalent attachment child withwell-meaning folks hauling that
child to youth of christianyouth events that had a strong
altar call component, and wellthat child is, we'll come back
and hear the news that child gotsaved, okay.
Well, if there's an event twomonths later, you know what I'm
going to find out if that childwent they got saved again and
(23:47):
they'll get saved every time.
And what happens is, my goodness, there's something harmful
going on.
If you ever drove a standardtransmission vehicle with a
clutch, if it's misappropriatedyou'll strip out the clutch and
eventually you just can't getany traction anymore.
And I really think there'ssomething harmful that goes on
with faith development If wedon't take good care of
(24:09):
ambivalent, attached kids and bepatient.
The best pastoral advice Icould give parents that have a
child that's with ambivalentattachment as far as faith
formation is to really focus onyour relationship with the child
and to focus on and be aware,catherine, as you said before,
(24:29):
of self-awareness and whatanxiety am I bringing into this
relationship and what do I needto do to be a non-anxious
presence in the life of thischild.
That's going to be the mosthelpful thing you could do in
God's name for the sake of thatchild.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
That is great.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So, what do you think ?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
the impact of this attachment style will have on
these kids when they do becomeadults.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
They're not going to trust a lot, they're going to
have a hard time formingattachments as well themselves.
I can imagine what anxiousnessin a relationship is like.
How can you know the otherperson has your back if you're
just always anxious about arethey going to leave me?
I'm not good enough.
I don't know what to do.
That must be difficult as anadult.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Well, I think, too kind of speaking to the
partnership relationship likeyou're speaking about and you
guys had mentioned, I think,interviewing a couple, and I
think you'd probably find thatyou would an ambivalent
attachment person or someone whois ambivalently attached will
look for someone to play therole that the parent played
(25:31):
which is telling them how toproceed, protecting them from
harm those types of behaviors.
I think you'll see that pairedup.
And then I think too, if you'relooking at someone in the
workplace, you would probablysee someone who has difficult
time making decisions, who kindof looks to others to take on
leadership or to make decisions.
Probably doesn't take very manyrisks, probably would be in a
(25:54):
job that is limited, low risk,which you know.
There's plenty of jobs that arelike that.
But I think too it would behard to be an adult working in
your workplace not being able tomake decisions with confidence.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
Well, that sounds like an adult that would always
need to be dependent on somebodyelse whether in their
relationship or at work.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
When it goes back to that.
What I sense about that earlycaregiving is there's a little
bit of enmeshment happeningright, and so I'm not okay
unless you're okay, and you'renot okay unless.
I'm okay, so it's thatcodependency piece and so,
speaking about like romanticrelationships or workplace
relationships, there is maybesome codependency pieces that
pop up that I need to know thatmy boss is okay before I'm okay,
(26:35):
or I need to know that mypartner is okay before I'm okay
and I can't be okay unless thisother person is, or I can't be
well or whatever.
I mean we can all kind of thinkabout how that might play out
in behaviors and relationshipsand things like that.
Speaker 5 (26:51):
Well, because I imagine the partner may feel
smothered a little bit, even ifthat's not what they need, or
they have a secure attachmentstyle.
It could actually inadvertentlypush people away, maybe even
it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Yeah, and to live in a state of worry that will choke
out just quality living there'sno peace and joy Just don't
seem to coexist with worry.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
So yeah, I think we'll rob ourselves of our best
life.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
I think it's interesting if you think about
people with anxiety.
We don't really like beingaround people who are nervous
all the time.
Right, that nervous energyscares us, and I think these
people that feel like that theydon't like other people too.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
So it's like two ends of the same ends of a magnet
that kind of repel each otheraway, which, like you said, Mike
, isn't really the recipe forjoy in your life, or adventure
and creativity.
They seem to emerge out offeeling safe and secure, and if
we're anxious, we're not goingto be as creative and as
adventurous are we.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
So what can we do to help these kids move to a place
of more security in theirattachment?
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I feel like it goes back to what we spoke about
earlier consistent consistency,creating opportunities, kind of
repairing some of thosedevelopmental misses, I guess
you could say, where we mightgive them opportunity to explore
and then fail, and then exploreand then fail, creating some
confidence in that, maybe givingthem small decisions to make,
(28:22):
showing that you can make adecision and look it turned out
okay, kind of dosing thoseexperiences a little bit.
But it kind of goes back towhat Mike was saying.
I think if we come at thissuper fast, super quick, super
intimate, then I think that theywill just spike their anxiety
right.
Speaker 5 (28:37):
And so I think being mindful, being, being curious,
producing opportunity for smallamount of stress, increase their
stress tolerance, that type ofstuff could be helpful yeah same
thing for the caregiver rightthe caregiver needs to be
mindful of what they're feelingand how, how they are responding
, their internal stuff, so thatway they're not sending the
stuff out to the the kid Because, right, what we're talking
(28:59):
about all the time is thecaregiver creates this in a way.
So the caregiver now has to beaware and give all the things
that Catherine said, but it'salso just being aware of
yourself and how you can helpsupport the child to help them
feel secure.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Well, thank you guys.
This is a great discussion andthank you guys all for spending
some time with us today.
Don't stress out about it.
Go ahead and commit to comingback here next week when we're
going to discuss disorganizedattachment.
Until then, remember you mighthave to loan out your frontal
lobes today.
Just make sure you remember toget them back.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
We hope you enjoyed this show.
If you would like moreinformation about Cal Farley's
Boys Ranch, are interested inemployment, would like
information about placing yourchild, or would like to help us
help children by donating to ourmission, please visit
calfarleyorg.
You can find us on all socialmedia platforms by searching for
(29:59):
Cal Farley's.
Thank you for spending yourtime with us and have a blessed
day.
Welcome to Brain Based Parenting, the Boys Ranch
podcast for families.
We all know how hard being aparent is, and sometimes it
feels like there are no goodanswers to the difficult
questions families have whentheir kids are struggling.
Our goal each week will be totry and answer some of those
tough questions, utilizing theknowledge, experience and
(00:24):
professional training CalFarley's Boys Ranch has to offer
.
Now here is your host, calFarley's Staff Development
Coordinator, joshua Sprock.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Welcome back and thank you for joining us today
as we talk about brain-basedparenting.
Today, we're going to continuetalking about our attachment
styles.
Specifically, we're going todiscuss ambivalent attachment.
To do that again, I'm joinedtoday by Sam Cerna, hello,
catherine Clay Hi.
And Mike Wilhelm Howdy, josh.
Well, today our question isabout ambivalence.
Ambivalence is defined as beingunsure, undecided or hesitant.
(00:58):
So my question is what is yourresponse when you're asked for
your input on where a groupshould go eat out?
Are you decisive or do you gothe I don't know, I don't care
route?
So for me, I always have anopinion and I know where I want
to go, but I'm always the Idon't care or I don't know, but
you really do care, I do care.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
So then you're just disappointed, yes.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I'm always disappointed I know that's rough
always disappointed, I feellike for me.
I go out to eat so infrequentlythat, if there's the
opportunity, I already knowwhere I want to go.
So I guess I am more decisive.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
So you'll tell a whole carload of people this is
where we're going.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, here's the deal .
If I'm going out to eat, it'salready been planned.
So who wants to go eat at thisplace?
At this time.
If it's me by myself, that'sfine.
If it's a group of people thatwant to eat there, that's also
fine.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Yeah, I'm generally just trying to do whatever
everybody else wants to do.
I think I'm a lot like Josh inwhere I kind of want to go eat a
burger, but I don't want tojust say it because maybe the
other people don't want to go tothe same burger place I want to
go to Because you're thoughtful.
Yeah, sometimes I get snaked togo my way, that's good.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
If I'm in a carload of people that I'm not normally
with, I don't want to oversteer,but I will put it out, float it
out there that if they'rereally asking, really want to
know, I'd rather not eat fastfood.
Oh, yeah, there that if they'rereally asking, really want to
know, I'd rather not eat fastfood.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Oh, yeah, but and then.
But I do have other preferences, but I'll just let that up to
the car to decide.
I did hear that if someonementions like three different
places that they want to eat,the first place they mention is
usually the place they actuallywant okay so that's.
I don't know if that's actuallywhen.
I just heard that on the radioor something that's pretty
awesome.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
My wife won't ever.
She'll always say you decide,so okay, finally I'll decide.
Well, I'm not sure I want to gothere, pick another one.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, that's rough.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
I'm not actually ambivalent then, because when I
let my wife decide it, I'm likeI don't really want to go there.
I don't really want to go there, I don't really want to go
there.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
All right, so let's talk about ambivalent attachment
.
What exactly is ambivalent?
Speaker 5 (03:16):
I mean ambivalence is that, like you said earlier,
you may be just indifferentabout what to do or about the
situation.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah Well, and I think that's where the title,
the ambivalent attachment title,comes from.
The caregiver's approach isstressed, anxious, overwhelmed,
when they're caregiving, andthat produces ambivalence in how
to respond, what to do next inregard to the child's behavior.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
So, because of that, what are some of the surface
level behaviors associated withambivalence or that attachment
style?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I think the child would feel a little bit frozen,
not knowing what to do next,waiting on their caregiver to
signal what to do.
We've talked just informally inhere about that helicopter
parent type title, where theparent's always watching and so
the kid's on edge trying tofigure out how to respond, what
to do, and then that the childmight look anxious, unsure,
(04:02):
unconfident.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Yeah, these are the kids that are probably just
going to hang around with theirparents all the time and not
want to leave their side becausethe world is maybe a little
unsafe for them.
They're very unsure aboutwhat's next?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yeah, I think that anxiety is prevalent in that.
So what do caregivers youtalked about helicopter parents
what do ambivalent parents looklike?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
You know, I think helicopter parents are
ambivalent parents, though theintent is probably pure and what
they believe is best for thechild or safe for the child ends
up being more the message isthat the world isn't safe or I
have to take, I have to ensureyour safety, I have to keep you
from harm, I have to ensureyou're not stressed type of
(04:42):
stuff, and so then that theparent is kind of just like
putting a kid in a bubble andnot letting them experience
either stressors that arehelpful or, you know, failures
that are safe, things like that.
You know, we were talking aminute ago about Dr Bruce Perry
and I think there is this notionthat stress is bad and we need
to avoid stress and what we dothe best, we do everything we
(05:05):
can to avoid stress, and I thinkthat's a piece of what the
parent, the ambivalent typeparent believes.
But what we know, based off ofBruce Perry, is that stress is
not bad.
In fact, the stress isnecessary.
The stressors are necessary aslong as they're predictable,
moderate and controllable,because those types of stressors
lead a child to be resilient.
(05:26):
So I don't know what do y'allthink?
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I'm wondering.
This is a question I have forthe three of you being the
experts.
Avoidant, insecure attachmentstyle seems to produce an
avoidant attachment style.
Caregiver would seem to producean avoidant attachment style
child.
Now this seems different to me.
This seems like a verycaregiver with a strong need for
(05:52):
control is going to produce anambivalent attachment style
where that caregiver themselvesmay not have ambivalent
attachment style.
That's a question, that's not astatement.
Is that right or doesambivalent do some ambivalent?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
I don't think that there's a hard and fast answer
to that.
I think you could probably lookat a lot of parents' histories
and they could fall into any ofthese categories.
There's just so many variablesthat we don't have or can't
explain.
I kind of think what you'resaying makes sense to me,
because the control that you'resaying that comes from the
ambivalent attachment, thehelicopter, the this is the way
(06:28):
you do it, you have to stay safecomes from anxiety, fear, you
know whatever word, and whenwe're feeling fearful or we're
feeling anxiety, we control.
What can we control?
Well, I can make sure mydaughter or my son doesn't
experience an adversity or fearor whatever, and then that
creates in the child kind ofsimilar stuff, you know fear to
(06:50):
move forward, fear to experience, fear to explore.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
That makes a lot of sense, catherine, in terms of
just thinking about Christianspiritual formation in people.
When we're acting out of theworst of ourselves, it's usually
fear, and it'll tend to comeout of one of three different
areas and different combinations, but either a need for power,
control, or a need for safety,security, or a need for
(07:15):
affection, and then again andjust varying combinations, but
you could see lots of differentcaregivers that acting out of
fear from one source or another.
I'm needing to control things.
This child is one of the thingsthat I need to control, and
what you're saying is we'regoing to arrest their
development if they're not ableto experience some mistakes on
(07:37):
their own, some venturing out,scraping a knee, that sort of
thing, right?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
As you're speaking, I'm thinking of, like there
might be a stage in life whereit feels normal for a kid to
look back at a parent or acaregiver to say can I proceed,
should I go this way?
Is this safe?
And I think that there'sprobably a season that that's
appropriate.
But the difference being isthat the caregiver does that
style the whole developmentright.
So like a 13-year-old shouldprobably not be looking back at
(08:03):
a parent to see should I crossthe street or is this safe?
Like they need to develop thatinternal process and that
internal skill so that they canbe independent of that caregiver
.
And if that's not developed,then I would imagine kids that
grow up with this type ofcaregiving lack the ability to
make decisions or be independentor develop into adulthood
(08:25):
without needing some reassuranceor some help making decisions
or just caregiving constantlythroughout life yeah, and these
two kids, I mean, like you, youasked or said earlier uh, it's a
, it's, it's a contrasting.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
the difference is that you know the, the kid we
talked about last time, oh, theavoidant, the avoidant child.
Sorry, it's going to seemconfident, it's going to seem
secure and this child is notgoing to seem that way Very
anxious and maybe, like you said, try to take control of a
situation and they might get ina little trouble over it because
(09:01):
, right, their need and anxietyis going to have to create them.
Maybe, you know, maybe theymight take over the class, or,
or you know, or anything likethat, where the other child is
is going to just maybe just becompliant and seem confident.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
This child will not seem confident I think you'll be
able to see it visibly too yeah, you know like we were saying
with the avoidant, there theymaybe look kind of cool, calm,
collected.
I think this kind of childyou're going to be able to see.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
You'll see and feel.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yes, the stirring.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Meet that child with that primary caregiver and ask
the child a question thatchild's probably going to have.
The deer in the headlights lookand then look at the caregiver
right, Like I said.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
There's a time that you would think well, that's
pretty normal.
But if that's a 15-year-oldbeing asked what do you want for
dinner or what do you want offthe McDonald's menu, and the
child is deer in headlights,looks at the parent, then that's
not.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
I was thinking, Sam, how many times have you seen
that interviewing a couple andasking questions, and one of the
two is the one that does allthe?
answer and then you finallyreach that point that you really
do want to draw something outof the other, so you really are
directing towards the other.
And that's when you realize, oh, you watch, and that person
(10:07):
will just look to the other, tothe partner, and won't answer
and it's like, okay, this is a,this has a weird feel and that
person is not secure aboutanswering on their own.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
So we grow into it as adults, don't we?
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Yeah, we do.
It surely does affect youradulthood.
Imagine these two differentstyles getting together as
parents how that affects thekids.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
That's interesting, interesting conversation.
So I was thinking too.
You guys talked about how thesedifferent parenting styles look
.
I think the intention of thoseparenting styles is interesting
to contrast.
So an occurer and an ambivalentI think intention of those
parenting styles is interestingto contrast.
So in a cure and a ambivalent,I think have similar intentions.
They're trying to get the kidsneeds met in that security the
secure attachment person is.
They have that, I don't knowsafety and security built in,
(10:52):
whereas the ambivalent parentthey have the right intention
but the kid never feels thatsense of relief because that
anxiety overrides their goodintention.
Do you think that's going toimpact that child's behavior?
Speaker 5 (11:03):
Yes, because I believe that when a kiddo can,
or even a young adult, let's saya teenage child, they're so
anxious, they have thisingrained need to control the
environment, if they can.
Because of that need, they'reunsure or they can even be
frozen in place and they'lldon't know what to do.
And so there's a ton of way youcan see these things manifest
(11:27):
in their life, and I, you know,I think of, and I was thinking
about the caregivers, all thesedifferent secure, attached
caregivers.
I used to watch my kids play onthe slide right and this old
park we used to have in myhometown.
It was kind of a tall slide, youknow, and it was metal, and I
remember watching my kids, youknow, climb that slide and my
guts were inching Right, and soI would imagine that I was a
(11:47):
secure parent.
I let them actually climb it.
Yeah, and my heart's in mychest and they're sliding down.
They survived it, yay, pray.
They're going to fall off theslide.
All these anxieties are goingto happen.
This ambivalent person wouldprobably not even let the child
go up there, or they'd go upthere with them, which?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
maybe that's not a bad thing.
We're avoiding that totallyWell, and I like that you
brought that up, because I thinkthat that's kind of like what
Josh said it's a slippery slopeor slide.
It's a slippery slide betweenthe secure and the ambivalent.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Just completely intended.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Because I do the same thing with my kids.
You know.
I've had to retrain myself tosay so.
I have my two-year-old and Idid it with my five-year-old too
.
But I had to retrain myself tosay, instead of say that's not
safe when he would climb or shewould climb, or whatever, I
would say hey, bud, or hey,honey, is that stable, is that
(12:41):
unstable, is that?
And so I would.
The change in my language andthe change in my approach,
because I felt that internallike, oh my goodness, my child's
about to fall off of whatever,when really it was like, you
know, very minimal risk, and Ichanged the way that I
approached it, gave my child theopportunity to say is this
stable?
Is this something I shouldclimb on or something I should
sit on?
Is this something I should walkaround or not walk on at all?
And that process of learning,that barrier, that stressor,
(13:04):
whatever it was, was nowinternalized, rather than me
being the one that had to pickout the harm, or me be the one
to say that's not safe or that'ssafe, because if that's not
internalized, they will need meto do that forever and that's
not ideal.
It's kind of like whatyou're're saying letting them
experience.
A stressor that's predictableand moderate and controllable,
like this giant slide you'retalking about with you standing
(13:25):
by, will teach them one way orthe other that this is a good
slide or bad slide or whatever.
You know.
Speaker 5 (13:30):
Whatever the barrier stressor is, whatever it is you
know, I really like how you, howyou um said that you, you tell
them what to expect and havethem use their senses to feel,
because I, you know, right, likeI said, that's all part of the
teaching process not easy.
I mean, wouldn't that, wouldn'tthat increase their confidence
right in life?
Right, because when you're notaround, right.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
They have to be able to make decisions correct right,
they can feel it.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
Does this feel okay?
Speaker 3 (13:53):
this does not feel okay, you know yeah, and it's
endearing to hear like a littleone say this is stable, this is
unstable I'm like I think I'vedone at least this thing right,
this little piece I've done.
Okay, you know becauseparenting is difficult.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Well, I, gotta say I am a helicopter parent, okay
good, this is what's here.
Some full disclosure here youworked hard for that title too.
You're not wrong.
So one of the things my wifealways tells me, though, is that
some point our daughters aregoing to go to college, and like
am I?
I going to be there at collegeto make sure.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Did you say yes, well , I do.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I think that is actually what I want to do but,
local, but I mean, at some pointthey're going to have to fly
out of the nest and if theyhaven't learned to fail in a
safe environment, then they'renot going to be able to be
successful once they leave us.
So maybe you guys could talkabout a little bit what does it
mean to fail in a safeenvironment?
How can we help kids do that?
Speaker 5 (14:46):
So Catherine touched on earlier about I should just
let you say it but creatinginstances in which they can go
explore and increase a littlebit of stress.
So you start small.
You open a child's world, so atfirst they're a lot inside with
you.
And when you open a child'sworld, right, so at first
they're a lot inside with youand when you take them outside
they're near you and that's allnatural, right.
But soon, right, letting themgo a little further from you,
(15:08):
that where they can still seeyou, um, and and try new things
and explore and touch and um,you know, so they can.
So what I'm saying, I guess istoo, is of um, if they're trying
to build something or ornavigate an obstacle and maybe
they fall off, hopefully it's afoot off the ground and they
fall down.
Well, they failed, but here I amto be there with them and tell
them how to do it better, or, or, or how to navigate.
(15:30):
Yes, the thing you know.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I think it's also the , the difference being that,
when they do fail, that we lookat it.
I think it's easy and maybeI've, probably, I think I've
probably done this where, whenthey fail, they fall and get
hurt, let's say, and I'll, it'sin my gut to say, see, but I
told you don't jump on that ordon't climb on that and I'm
guilty, I've done that.
The better response that I tryto say is okay, so what'd we
(15:52):
learn here?
That was unstable or whateverit may be.
Rather than when you fall, youfail and we don't do that, we
don't try that again, rather,climb again.
Let's just do it a little bitdifferently, maybe wear better
shoes or whatever it may be, andthen there's learning inside of
that.
I think that feels safe, right.
I know I can go and dosomething a little risky or
something that's explorative,and if it works, great.
(16:14):
If it doesn't, I'll come backand try to figure out what went
wrong and how to do itdifferently.
Again, lots of internal work asa parent to be able to do that,
because when I say, but I see,I told you don't do that, that's
my own anxiety and fear comingout and I don't want to put that
in my child, you know.
Speaker 5 (16:29):
And I also think it's about creating challenge, right
?
So I took my grandkids to apark the other day, and that's
where you really learn about thekids, right?
Sometimes I think they're superbrave, right, sometimes.
Sometimes I think they're superbrave and sometimes I think
they're scaredy cats, and I amvery almost 100 surprised
because I'm obviously I'm notwith my grandkids all the time
right um so, and I don't takethem to the park all the time,
but when I do, here's where Inoticed so I had.
(16:50):
There was a.
One of my grandsons used to bescared of everything and now
he's jumping and running andclimbing and doing it's
incredible he was so fearful andand to see this growth he's had
, and now my other grandson, whoI thought was braver, um, we
were jumping some of the leappads, that kind of ascend and he
wouldn't do it and I'm likeit's not even that high right
you know so then I'm like okay,so how do I challenge him here?
(17:13):
hey, well, let me hold your hand, can you take a step?
And then if in at some point,if they're not comfortable,
that's where I I got to make thedecision.
How much worth is it today?
for me to push this?
Or should I let them fail todayand that's OK, yeah and so and
right, and then we try againnext time, or I have his brother
model it, so Right.
So there's tons of ways that wecan set up that it's safe that
(17:34):
if he was to fall he's not goingto get hurt.
This playground is, it's notlike?
Our old playgrounds rightthere's spikes at the bottom of
everything, right, but I thinkthat's a cool way to have them
fail in a safe environment.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Yes, that's a good example.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
That's what Sam, what you and Catherine just shared,
and Josh, that really importantfor faith development of kids
and here's why An ambivalentattachment child with anxiety
might find themselves in asituation where they're going to
tend to be.
They'll tend to struggle morewith the God piece, but whenever
(18:09):
they do come to faith or toconversion it would be the
classic what we would call thetwice born, and usually there's
more emotion involved and itreally is a way to try to
relieve anxiety.
Doesn't mean it's not authenticwhat's going on, necessarily,
but it has that element Now thatfaith is going to be less
resilient because, as we know,if you read the book of Job or
(18:32):
you read through most of theBible, life happens, sometimes
in an unfortunate way and thatchild that's never learned that
sometimes things aren't safe,sometimes bad things happen,
that hasn't had some of thatpatterning, they're going to
really struggle with the faithpiece.
That faith piece will be lessstable.
And something that I've learnedas a chaplain here in
(18:54):
residential child care communitythat I didn't know and maybe
there's some listeners that havetaken children into their home
that have come from hard places,kids that have ambivalent
attachment styles.
We need to really be patientand wise and loving with those
children and if we're hasty withsome kind of religious
intervention, those childrenjust to relieve anxiety will
(19:18):
comply.
And whatever it is theexpectation is, if we round them
up and take them to a big youthevent that has a hellfire and
brimstone altar call, well, thatchild is going to need to
relieve that anxiety and they'regoing to fall right in line
with that.
Is that going to be somethinghealthy as far as faith
formation?
I'd question that.
In fact I think it might besomething harmful rather than
(19:41):
healthy going on.
So we need to be real careful.
That child with that ambivalentattachment style coming from a
hard place might seem supercompliant as well if we're
helicopter parenting and thatcompliance might not be growth
at all.
So yeah what you've shared isvery helpful in my thought, so I
appreciate what you both said.
(20:01):
Thank you, mike.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So let's look at if we have a caregiver who has the
correct intentions, trying tomeet the child's needs, but
overwhelmed with those feelingsof anxiety, uncertainty,
nervousness.
Or is that helicopter parentthat's going to shape how we see
the world?
So if this is my template, whatwould my I am statement be?
Here I am.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Unsure An.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
What would my I am statement be here?
I am Unsure, anxious, yeah,confused.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
Others are.
Well, they're confusing.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Or maybe scary.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yeah, anxious.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah, the world is Unsafe, Unsafe and therefore I
must Hide.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Yeah, do anything.
Control, be safe, control.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
And I think you're just going to be paralyzed by
fear.
I've heard it said that thiscurrent generation is one of the
most anxious generations ever,and I think it's because people
like primary caregiver,helicopter parent moving into
(21:01):
adolescence or settings wherethey're not around that
caregiver?
Speaker 4 (21:04):
are they going to be more susceptible to peer
pressure or less?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
so I've heard actually a lot of research on
that.
Peer pressure and substanceabuse is actually pretty high in
these because they're in thestate of anxious anxiety all the
time and they've neverexperienced a sense of relief.
So when they have eitherinappropriate relationships or
substance abuse it has adisproportionate effect on that
(21:29):
relief.
They have that ah moment thatthey've never experienced before
, and it becomes, that becomesan addicting experience.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Well, and I think, aside from like the natural
process and development ofkiddos, the age that you're
talking about, it's like a bombsetting off for peer pressure,
(22:04):
belonging, all that stuff Cominginto adolescence being even
more unsure than you already areas an adolescent you know, or
looking for someone to tell youwhat to do next.
You know, it's just such avulnerable time for that.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
Yeah, mike, and you said a good word.
You said low resilience and youknow people who are low
resilience are more susceptibleto things they cannot take a hit
maybe than a more resilientperson could.
And what builds resilience isadversity right.
And if kids don't get to go outand experience things as young
kids or even teenagers, itbecomes harder to take on
(22:41):
anything that might bechallenging, and I don't mean
like work stuff I'm talkingabout.
You know, those hits that wetalk about a death in the family
could be very impactful tothese kids or these adults, even
because they just don't havethe toughness built up to cope.
So they're going to find othercoping mechanisms to do so, to
help relieve that stress.
(23:02):
And that was so insightful.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
I never thought about that, you know, because it's
similar to the previousattachments that we talked about
was that these people couldalso sink into any kind of
addiction or video games ortechnology, also because it
feels good that release and allthat Because, right, it's all
about the stress here, that thatstress is very high I have
noticed that from a pastor'sviewpoint, watching the
(23:26):
ambivalent attachment child withwell-meaning folks hauling that
child to youth of christianyouth events that had a strong
altar call component, and wellthat child is, we'll come back
and hear the news that child gotsaved, okay.
Well, if there's an event twomonths later, you know what I'm
going to find out if that childwent they got saved again and
(23:47):
they'll get saved every time.
And what happens is, my goodness, there's something harmful
going on.
If you ever drove a standardtransmission vehicle with a
clutch, if it's misappropriatedyou'll strip out the clutch and
eventually you just can't getany traction anymore.
And I really think there'ssomething harmful that goes on
with faith development If wedon't take good care of
(24:09):
ambivalent, attached kids and bepatient.
The best pastoral advice Icould give parents that have a
child that's with ambivalentattachment as far as faith
formation is to really focus onyour relationship with the child
and to focus on and be aware,catherine, as you said before,
(24:29):
of self-awareness and whatanxiety am I bringing into this
relationship and what do I needto do to be a non-anxious
presence in the life of thischild.
That's going to be the mosthelpful thing you could do in
God's name for the sake of thatchild.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
That is great.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So, what do you think ?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
the impact of this attachment style will have on
these kids when they do becomeadults.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
They're not going to trust a lot, they're going to
have a hard time formingattachments as well themselves.
I can imagine what anxiousnessin a relationship is like.
How can you know the otherperson has your back if you're
just always anxious about arethey going to leave me?
I'm not good enough.
I don't know what to do.
That must be difficult as anadult.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Well, I think, too kind of speaking to the
partnership relationship likeyou're speaking about and you
guys had mentioned, I think,interviewing a couple, and I
think you'd probably find thatyou would an ambivalent
attachment person or someone whois ambivalently attached will
look for someone to play therole that the parent played
(25:31):
which is telling them how toproceed, protecting them from
harm those types of behaviors.
I think you'll see that pairedup.
And then I think too, if you'relooking at someone in the
workplace, you would probablysee someone who has difficult
time making decisions, who kindof looks to others to take on
leadership or to make decisions.
Probably doesn't take very manyrisks, probably would be in a
(25:54):
job that is limited, low risk,which you know.
There's plenty of jobs that arelike that.
But I think too it would behard to be an adult working in
your workplace not being able tomake decisions with confidence.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
Well, that sounds like an adult that would always
need to be dependent on somebodyelse whether in their
relationship or at work.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
When it goes back to that.
What I sense about that earlycaregiving is there's a little
bit of enmeshment happeningright, and so I'm not okay
unless you're okay, and you'renot okay unless.
I'm okay, so it's thatcodependency piece and so,
speaking about like romanticrelationships or workplace
relationships, there is maybesome codependency pieces that
pop up that I need to know thatmy boss is okay before I'm okay,
(26:35):
or I need to know that mypartner is okay before I'm okay
and I can't be okay unless thisother person is, or I can't be
well or whatever.
I mean we can all kind of thinkabout how that might play out
in behaviors and relationshipsand things like that.
Speaker 5 (26:51):
Well, because I imagine the partner may feel
smothered a little bit, even ifthat's not what they need, or
they have a secure attachmentstyle.
It could actually inadvertentlypush people away, maybe even
it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Yeah, and to live in a state of worry that will choke
out just quality living there'sno peace and joy Just don't
seem to coexist with worry.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
So yeah, I think we'll rob ourselves of our best
life.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
I think it's interesting if you think about
people with anxiety.
We don't really like beingaround people who are nervous
all the time.
Right, that nervous energyscares us, and I think these
people that feel like that theydon't like other people too.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
So it's like two ends of the same ends of a magnet
that kind of repel each otheraway, which, like you said, Mike
, isn't really the recipe forjoy in your life, or adventure
and creativity.
They seem to emerge out offeeling safe and secure, and if
we're anxious, we're not goingto be as creative and as
adventurous are we.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
So what can we do to help these kids move to a place
of more security in theirattachment?
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I feel like it goes back to what we spoke about
earlier consistent consistency,creating opportunities, kind of
repairing some of thosedevelopmental misses, I guess
you could say, where we mightgive them opportunity to explore
and then fail, and then exploreand then fail, creating some
confidence in that, maybe givingthem small decisions to make,
(28:22):
showing that you can make adecision and look it turned out
okay, kind of dosing thoseexperiences a little bit.
But it kind of goes back towhat Mike was saying.
I think if we come at thissuper fast, super quick, super
intimate, then I think that theywill just spike their anxiety
right.
Speaker 5 (28:37):
And so I think being mindful, being, being curious,
producing opportunity for smallamount of stress, increase their
stress tolerance, that type ofstuff could be helpful yeah same
thing for the caregiver rightthe caregiver needs to be
mindful of what they're feelingand how, how they are responding
, their internal stuff, so thatway they're not sending the
stuff out to the the kid Because, right, what we're talking
(28:59):
about all the time is thecaregiver creates this in a way.
So the caregiver now has to beaware and give all the things
that Catherine said, but it'salso just being aware of
yourself and how you can helpsupport the child to help them
feel secure.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Well, thank you guys.
This is a great discussion andthank you guys all for spending
some time with us today.
Don't stress out about it.
Go ahead and commit to comingback here next week when we're
going to discuss disorganizedattachment.
Until then, remember you mighthave to loan out your frontal
lobes today.
Just make sure you remember toget them back.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
We hope you enjoyed this show.
If you would like moreinformation about Cal Farley's
Boys Ranch, are interested inemployment, would like
information about placing yourchild, or would like to help us
help children by donating to ourmission, please visit
calfarleyorg.
You can find us on all socialmedia platforms by searching for
(29:59):
Cal Farley's.
Thank you for spending yourtime with us and have a blessed
day.
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