September 3, 2025 • 45 mins
🎙️ Episode 52: Stump the Theologian + Spiritual Gifts ReimaginedIn this thought-provoking episode of Brains, Bibles and Beyond!, we kick things off with our fan-favorite segment Stump the Theologian, where Joel tackles a surprisingly tricky question: How old were Jesus' disciples, really? Get ready for some historical context, theological insight, and maybe a few surprises.Then, we welcome special guest Bill Smart, author of the compelling new book Spiritual Gifts Reimagined: The Journey View. Bill shares his fresh perspective on spiritual gifts, exploring how they evolve over time and how we can better understand their role in our personal and communal faith journeys.To learn more about Bill and explore his work, visit his official website: billsmartauthor.com.Whether you're a curious seeker or a seasoned scholar, this episode offers deep insights and engaging conversation that go beyond the expected.https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Gifts-Reimagined-Journey-View-ebook/dp/B0BTGLWBWHwww.brainsandbibles.comwww.thinklikechrist.org
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hey everybody, this is Brains Bibles and beyond.
I am Nate Day and this is Joel Willoughby and we are so glad
that you have joined us for another episode.
And. Today we have a special guest.
Yeah, well, it's actually not today.
We recorded this a while ago andwe have a special guest on this
(00:21):
episode. In the recent past.
In the recent past, yes. We did an interview with Bill
Smart and. Joel's going to just talk about
his book a little bit, yeah. I don't want to say too much,
I'm already going to say here ina moment.
But the book is spiritual. Gifts Reimagined the Journey
view by Bill Smart can check it out on Amazon.
I'm not sure about other places but I know Amazon for sure.
It's right there. Great book, good read.
(00:44):
I recommend it, but watch the episode.
We we brought in the A-Team, so we're not going to like it, all
right? Let's get started guys.
Well, all. Right.
So for our first segment, beforewe get started on interview, you
(01:06):
got it. We have our favorite segment of
the day. Oh boy.
Stump the theologian. Pressure's on.
Where we all get to come with questions to make Joel not look
smart, All right. So the rules of the.
Game. If we can get a question that
(01:26):
Joe cannot satisfactory answer, we are winners.
Very subjective, but yeah. Yeah, I mean.
It's just something we do. So today's question is, how old
were the disciples? At what point right now?
They're all over 2000 years old.I think.
(01:48):
I think it's like when they werewith Jesus, like when he called.
Them they were how old? All right, So between two to
three years is all that. They're actually there together
with, you know, and John would have been the youngest 1.
And I don't have any sources on me or anything because it's off
the top of my head. But what I from my understand is
(02:09):
anywhere from like 13 to 16 years old, that would have been
John the young guy. And then Peter is the old guy.
And so he probably have been like in his 30s.
I. Think he was that old?
Yeah, maybe, I mean it, it couldbe like maybe even into maybe
early 40s or something. But yeah, probably like a 30s.
So probably around Jesus age, a little bit older than Jesus as
(02:30):
far as his earthly ministry goes.
Yep. You think that's that's the
range basically, I think. They're that old.
We know Peter was the only one that was mentioned to be
married, so we just all see we as the oldest.
He definitely. Yeah.
Well, and he was the, you know, John beat him to the tomb
racing. Sure, he was the younger guy and
Peter was the older guy. It's all it's Andrew, then I
don't. Know they're brothers.
(02:52):
I just always assume they're alllike around like, you know, late
teenage 1718 range. But I don't Yeah, I know just
because wasn't wasn't that was that traditionally when you.
Picked your rabbi. When you're around like 17.
Well, you know, you had to show some promise within the
(03:12):
educational system, and then that kind of determined how good
of a rabbi you could even get. Sure, but you?
In this case, the rabbi picked them well.
It has to be a mutual. Little bit different, but
typically. It was a great honor, you know,
somebody, anybody came to you and said, hey, come be my
disciple kind of thing. It'd be like a hot dog, you
know? OK, so bottom line is you have
(03:35):
no idea how old they were. That's.
Just the the best guess. That I know.
It's like basically out there, but I just can't think of any
sources or anything, which is kind of scary.
So I think it's like the the young and old end and everyone
else was just kind of thrown in the mix.
Someone, somewhere in the middle.
How did we know John was the youngest?
Just because he lived the longest.
It's been so long since I even looked at this but I just
(03:56):
remember this in my head as likemy.
Conclusion All right, all right.I think we found a stumper then
he didn't know it off the top ofhis head without looking stuff
up, I think, I think we have a win, guys.
I think we have a win. OK, all right, on to the
interview everybody, and welcomeback.
We have a special guest with us here today.
This is Bill Smart and he is theauthor of Spiritual Gifts
(04:20):
Reimagined the Journey View, andhe has a Master of Theology from
Dallas Theological Seminary and a Doctor of Ministry from
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.
It's kind of a mouthful there. But anyway, welcome to our show,
Bill. Thank you very much.
(04:43):
Yeah, it's great to have you. I I got in touch with Bill
through LinkedIn. I believe it was there and we
started talking and he was kind enough to send me his book to
check out. I like it.
And so I wanted to pass it on and I'll, I'll show it to you
for the from our YouTube listeners here.
I got a blurred background, so I'm trying to get it back in
(05:04):
there. It did show up earlier, but the
spiritual gifts reimagined the journey view.
There it is. That's not really coming
through, is it? I'm trying to get it close to
you. It's not there.
There it goes. There you go.
Almost. You know what?
You see it now. We'll, we'll.
Include that, we'll include the link in.
That in our description. Yeah, then you'll see it for
sure. And we'll include there's a,
(05:26):
there's a website and any other information that we might bring
up or something we can, we'll put in the description here.
So no worries on that one. But this, this is an
interesting, it's a, it's a, it's an interesting view.
I, I read through it and I thought, Oh yes, this is
actually right in line with a lot of what I've been thinking.
(05:46):
And of course he articulates things well and that's why I
like it, but didn't really quitethink about how it was
different. So maybe was, we'll start there.
Bill, if you would just kind of give us an overview of the book,
you know, very broad, 30,000 feet up in the air kind of look
and just kind of talk to you howit would be different than some
(06:08):
of the other popular views when people would would bring up
spiritual gifts. Sure.
Well, I'll mention three areas in particular that are
highlights of how what I call the journey view of spiritual
gifts is different than, you know, the popular way of
thinking. The popular view of gifts is
(06:30):
sometimes summed up by saying it's the view that we get these
added gifts at some point in ourjourney.
And so the journey view of spiritual gift says three things
in particular that are differentthan that.
One is that the journey view emphasizes that our gifts must
(06:51):
be developed along our journey of spiritual growth rather than
us being passive and kind of automatic receivers of gifts at
salvation. OK, so giftedness is developed
over the journey of spiritual growth.
Secondly, the journey view focuses on agape love
(07:15):
relationships as a context for gift discovery rather than
focusing on testing as a method for gift discovery.
Now I don't disagree with using testing sometimes, but I think
the priority ought to be on agape love relationships.
And then thirdly, the journey view emphasizes the the gifted
(07:40):
uniqueness of each person ratherthan stopping with categorizing
people. So the emphasis on gift
development rather than automatic receiving, emphasis on
love relationships over testing,and emphasis on gifted
(08:00):
uniqueness rather than simply categorizing people.
Talk a little bit more about theidea of relationships with this
How would my relationships help me to discover how God's
designed me or that to help improve in that?
(08:23):
Yeah, You know, we all know thatright in the middle of Paul's
discussion of spiritual gifts inFirst Corinthians that you've
got the love chapter in there, right?
So he's talking about gifts in 12, talks about gifts in 14.
Here in the middle, we got this thing on love.
Love is patient, love is kind, etcetera.
(08:43):
And I think that's in there for a reason.
And the thing that I emphasize in my book is that we need
brothers and sisters in Christ who are motivated by agape love.
We're patient with us, perseverein relationship with us and help
us to do a good job of listeningto our own hearts to see what is
(09:06):
the giftedness that God has put in there.
Because a lot of times our our focus in life is on the tasks we
have to do next or the jobs thatneed to be done in the church or
other things. And God has placed within each
of us the potentials that that are called gifts that we need to
discover. But unless we pay attention to
(09:28):
what's going on inside of our hearts and how God is using
life's circumstances to develop those gifts and potentials,
we're going to miss what those are.
So we need brothers and sisters in Christ to walk with us in
agape love, patiently listen to us, and help us discover the
(09:49):
gold, the treasure that God's put in each of us.
Does that make sense? I just want to have one
clarifying points. I think that there might be some
people in my audience that when you say agape, love agape, maybe
they've never really heard of itbefore.
I think most have. But then could you just clarify
what distinction that is, what that means?
(10:10):
Yeah, well, agape is the Greek word that's used very often in
the New Testament for love. There are some other words also
used for love, but the one that is really prioritized in
Scripture is this agape love, sometimes thought of as
unconditional love. Love that has the best of the
other person as top priority andis very much interested in
(10:33):
serving whatever is in that person's best.
And what could be better for somebody than to discover who
God made them uniquely to be andbecome?
Yeah, that's good. I, I, I like that.
I'm in full agreement with the idea that God has designed each
(10:54):
of us with this. You know, we'll use the word
gift just to keep it the same with with a gift and whether
they end up believing or not, you know, they guys designed
them that way. I think it's in Romans 11 maybe
somewhere. So I've kind of top of my head
here a little bit, but it says something like, depending on
your translation, the gifts and calling of God is irrevocable.
(11:18):
You know, that it, it's not taken away, it doesn't matter.
He's, he's given it from the beginning, essentially.
And it's our job as the church body to help identify these
things and bring it out, you know, hone it in, help it to
flourish. I think so.
You know what isn't? It isn't so encouraging where
(11:40):
whether when a brother in Christor a sister in Christ comes to
you and says I see thus and sucha potential in you or I see an
amazing expression of God working through you in other
people's lives when you do this or when you do that.
Wow, that's that up that upliftsme, you know, or when a brother
(12:01):
or sister in Christ and agape love comes to me and says, you
know, I think you really have potential in this area, but this
or that seems to be hindering itin your life.
Well, that's not very pleasant, is it?
But it it is speaking the truth in love, you know.
Yeah, very important. Boy is that I was just having a
(12:24):
conversation yesterday with somebody and they brought it up
about how a lot of churches havereally missed the boat on
speaking truth and love. Either it's a lot of truth
without love and it's destructive, or it's a lot of
kind of fluffy love without truth and that's also
(12:44):
destructive. And I think that, you know that
what we call constructive criticism, you know, you're
you're edifying is what it is and it comes out it's so
important. Why the Ephesians 4?
It's like kind of right in the centerpiece there of Ephesians,
this whole building up, you know, kind of like verses one
through 16 about unifying and the church grows the church and
all sort of stuff. And it's somewhere and like
(13:06):
probably like verse 1415 somewhere like that is where it
says the speaking truth and love.
I like to point out that, you know, it's like literally just
like true thing in love, you know, and of course we speaking
is the smoothing of the translation and and it's a good
translation that way, but it's just that idea of true thing is
kind of even bigger. You know, it's like all of us,
(13:27):
you know, we was like 80%, I think.
I think the percentage is a little bit made-up, but
something like 80% of our communication is non verbal.
Think about everything we do, even our tone of voice and
whatnot, right? So every everything's important
that we're genuine with people and I think people can see see
that for what it is. And we genuinely are true thing
(13:49):
in love. The church grows and that
includes this this idea of giftsas well.
Yeah. Another verse that I camp on a
lot that's similar is in First Corinthians 13, I think it's
verse 6, where it says that lovedoes not rejoice in
unrighteousness, but rejoices inthe truth.
(14:12):
I think it's, I may be paraphrasing, but that's
powerful, you know? And so I need brothers and
sisters in Christ who when I've strayed and there's
unrighteousness in my life, theygrieved and they let me know
that they're grieving. Or when I, when I'm living
according to the truth, they rejoice in that and they let me
(14:33):
see that they're rejoicing. And that guides me that that
impels me on to grow. Yes, talk to me a little bit
about because I think that there's a lot of people that
might be a little bit confused about the idea of unbelievers
being gifted. What exactly you might mean by
like, what would it, what would it look like?
(14:54):
I guess that's the bigger, you know, clarifying point.
Yeah. How?
How can they be gifted and stillbeing, you know, not regenerated
by the Holy Spirit? Right, this, this goes to the
heart of a, a distinction between this view I have of
gifts called the journey view versus the popular view.
(15:17):
And the popular view says that you, the Spirit of God gives
gifts. And since you get the Spirit of
God when you come to Christ as Savior, that's when you get
gifts. So which I think is a rather
mechanical way of thinking. But, but I think that the giving
and receiving of our spiritual gifts is stated in Scripture as
(15:42):
a metaphor, not a, not a concrete transaction that
happens at a certain point in time.
So I think that our gifts are potentials that God, they're
from God and they're built into us by his creation of us.
So we're born with them. So therefore, if we're born with
them, obviously then all people have them, all people have
(16:04):
various potentials, right, A variety of potentials.
So, so therefore unbelievers have gifts.
I don't know if you want to callthem Karasmada or spiritual
gifts, but unbelievers have gifts.
We we see that all the time, youknow, throughout society and in
our friends. So what does it look like you
said, well, a lot of times we have these potentials, but we're
(16:27):
not using them in God honoring ways.
We're using them for self honoring, all right, Or we're
using them in causes that don't build the Kingdom of God or
sometimes people who don't have the spirit of God in their
lives. And this can be true of
Christians as well. Nevertheless, have not developed
(16:47):
those potentials. Those potentials remain dormant
or stunted or hidden. So that can be the case with
unbelievers. And so I devote a chapter of my
book called All People Are Gifted to how this understanding
of gifts can help us with evangelism.
Because if I'm gifted and my unsaved friend is also gifted,
(17:11):
we have some common ground thereand we can meet over this, over
the journey of developing our potentials and I can introduce
how Christ makes a difference inthat for me.
So it can look like a whole different range of things.
Even if unbelievers are using their gifts in wonderful
(17:33):
altruistic ways to serve others,which many are, maybe the motive
deep inside is self glory. Something like that that.
Makes sense. Yeah, I like in Page 3 of the
book here in the beginning, there was something that kind of
jumped out to me because I like to talk about beauty and how it
(17:56):
proves the creator and things. And I think we have an episode
somewhere where I mentioned thatyeah, naysayaking says yes, so
it's somewhere in the the the analog there.
But Page 3 at the bottom paragraph says beauty is his
signature, and he knew we humanswould be amazed and awed by the
stunning masterpieces that flowed out of the heart of our
(18:19):
world's creator. Since God obviously values
beauty, he himself must have first been thrilled, feeling
deep joy as he imagined and crafted all that magnificence.
And I really like that. Beauty is a signature.
I absolutely believe that. And, and that's kind of the,
that you really set the stage with this idea and how there's
(18:41):
this beautiful panoramic that God has crafted here among
humanity. And so I think it's really great
view. And I like the that you, you
bring out the evangelistic perspective there that you are,
you're getting to know people and you're understanding their
value, not just in a general intrinsic way, but getting even
(19:03):
a little bit more specific how unique to them and recognizing
how God has designed them specifically in their
giftedness. And then, you know, showing
that, hey, you know, I've seen this before kind of a thing, you
know, maybe myself, maybe I'm the same way or someone else.
And just the difference that Christ can make.
Yeah, I really appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of
(19:30):
another emphasis of the journey view of gifts is to put a real
emphasis on Christ. I have a statement in my book
somewhere. It says that Jesus doesn't get
much mention in most books on spiritual gifts.
But Jesus is of course one who maxed out the unique identity
(19:51):
and potentials that he had. And so he's a model for us of
what that looks like. And and he was a servant and
sacrificially so, of course. And so all of that is a model
for us as we grow and develop our giftedness and as we talk to
(20:12):
unbelievers and say, look, Jesusis example of somebody who had
potentials and realized them. And here's what it that looked
like pretty powerful, I think. It seems to me that the example
we're given by Jesus seen through the Gospels is, is in
such a way that no matter how God's designs you, you can
(20:35):
relate, then you can find a better way to fulfill your
design to God's glory. You know, by following Christ's
example. It's really interesting.
He was kind of, you know, he waseverything to everyone, The
perfect example for literally everyone, which is an
interesting, that's kind of a mind blowing idea, right?
(20:57):
That one man, obviously he's gone, but one man could be the
perfect example for all you know, every individual of
humanity. Yeah, Yeah.
You know, it's, it's very interesting that that's true.
And at the same time, he didn't mind disappointing people
because he was focused on his mission.
(21:20):
And if that was a disappointmentto you, as it was, we know to
many, well, you know, this is the mission.
This is who I am. Right, Yeah, fantastic stuff.
Sometimes, you know, we'll, we'll get, maybe it's getting a
little off topic now perhaps, but we'll get, you know, a bit
(21:41):
burnt out, worn out. And it's because we didn't stay
on mission. And I, I found myself in that
error quite a few times in life.You know, God wants to do
certain things that can't be thehero for every 'cause that's out
there, you know, kind of a thing.
So, yeah, it's important, important life lesson there.
Absolutely. All right, Nate, I think I've
(22:04):
been hogging a lot of this. I've had a previous conversation
with with brother Bill here myself before.
So, but, but Nate, as you've been listening to this, is there
anything, any points of clarification you'd like to have
or a question you'd like to ask him?
Yeah, so I guess I'm just tryingto wrap my mind around the the
(22:26):
whole concept here. So I mean, I, I totally agree
that we're all gifted by God, you know, when we're created,
you know, he gives each of us gifts.
Is that just, is that strictly what you're calling spiritual
gifts? Or are there other gifts that he
then also bestows upon us once we are Christians?
(22:51):
Or is it more just he helps us find what those gifts are and,
and reach the full potential andwe've all had them all along.
Is, is there, is there somethingthere where everybody just has
gifts when they're when they're born and then there's more added
by the Holy Spirit later or we just all have them all the whole
(23:11):
time? I guess, yeah.
One thing I want to clarify in beginning to answer your
question they is has to do with the lists of gifts in the
epistles. And I do not think that those
lists in the various epistles are lists of abilities that we
(23:38):
are given. OK.
I think that what those lists are.
Well, when I started to develop a different view of gifts, one
of the first thoughts I had was that, oh, you know, Paul and
Peter with a shortlist, you know, they weren't handed on
stone tablets from heaven by God, a list of gifts, you know,
(24:02):
written by his finger. And I realized, oh, they came.
They made-up their own lists. How did they do that?
And I think that what they did was Paul and Peter.
They looked at local churches, they looked at the body of
Christ, and they saw a diversityof people in churches, just like
we do today. And what did they do?
(24:22):
They classified the diversity that they saw in churches.
And that's what those lists are.Those are categories of people.
Their category labels is what they are.
And so I don't think that the New Testament presents to us
that there are these added abilities that are out there.
(24:42):
And then we have to talk about like your question is, you know,
when do we get them? How do we get them to that type
of thing? I think that those lists are
categories of people. So to your question of, you
know, when do we get those gifts?
Are there multiple points at which we can get those gifts?
(25:03):
I don't think there are abilities that are added to us.
I think that we are born with certain potentials.
Now, there is one category of gifts that's a little different.
That's the supernatural gifts, which involves some divine
initiation. So that's a little bit
different, but it still falls into categories of people who
have those gifts because there are others who don't.
(25:24):
So I think we're born with thosepotentials.
I think that we discover them. We're supposed to discover them
along our journeys of growth. We may or we may not, depending
on whether we're growing or not.And the further we go down our
journey journeys of growth, the more we can develop and discover
(25:44):
and use those gifts to bless others.
I don't know if that answered your question.
Yeah, I know. I think it does.
So I appreciate that, that that helps.
So what? What are some practices that
people can do or exercises that would help us figure out or, or
discover those gifts that that we we all have, I guess, you
(26:07):
know, created into US? Yeah.
Well, one of the things I I would suggest in response to
that is at the back of my book, I've got a couple of worksheets
and one is called The Gifting Journey.
And what it does, it's a, it's kind of a, A, yeah, a series of
questions that ask you to look at your past, look at your
(26:30):
present and look at your future and answer some questions.
And some of those questions haveto do with the the experiences
of life, particularly the trialsin life that got allowed into
your life to grow you and what you learned about yourself in
those particular trials. And so that's one exercise is to
(26:53):
use a tool like that to considerwhat God had did, did develop in
you through life's trials, what he is developing and what you
anticipate he may in the future develop.
And the other thing is you can do this in tandem with other
brothers and sisters in Christ to help you see what you're not
(27:13):
going to see yourself. So those are the few things that
kind of reflection, that kind ofhelp from from brothers and
sisters in Christ. And there's a, there's the two
different worksheets in the back.
They have the, the ones about, you know, love and then explains
it. And then the other one is about
(27:33):
more of the actual, you know, design.
But either way, it explains it. And so that that's, that's
pretty nice. I like that a lot.
And then in case someone, I thought this might be helpful in
case one doesn't really know what we're talking about when we
say like these lists of gifts kind of thing.
So like for example, in Romans 12, we have a list and this is
(27:55):
where we would say that these are these are people here as you
were describing before. So Romans 12 verse 6 having
gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.
Let's let us use them if prophecy in proportion to our
faith if service and our serving.
The one who teaches and is teaching, the one who exhorts in
his exhortation, one who contributes in his generosity,
(28:18):
the one who leads with zeal, theone who does acts of mercy with
cheerfulness. So you know that that kind of a
thing there. And so you have and it's you
know, just think about this might be an easier 1.
You know the givers there. There are people that God is
really wired to, even to build wealth and then to give it.
(28:40):
And maybe they haven't built their wealth, but they're still
easily just give, give, give. They stay able to see needs.
They're problem solvers with with, you know, currency kind of
a thing. You know, there's, there's God's
work to be done, who's going to help get it done.
And I've met a couple of these people in my own ministry and
hopefully I meet more, but we'llneed that.
(29:03):
But the idea is that a quick commercial, if you are getting
OK, never mind. All right, So no, but yeah,
there's, I've seen him in action.
And a lot of times they're very quiet about it.
They're very humble people. But God has given them this
ability to meet needs like this,to supply it, which is really,
(29:23):
really cool. And then you just look at all
those other gifts as well, the service.
There's a lot of background people, you know, in every
church. You're going to have your, you
know, your givers, you're going to have your always in the
shadows servants type people. You don't really see them up
front or anything. Your your leaders and things.
You just go through that list. You know, that's just one of
them there. But in Romans 12, verses 6
(29:46):
through 8, and I think you'll start to see this as people and
I hope you do out there. So I think that is true.
And so then recognize them so that you see somebody and you
think to yourself, now how does this person fit in?
Because 100% of the population in the church building should
(30:07):
fit in somewhere. They have some sort of value
profits. They're they're a contribution
to the body of Christ and the community around them.
And, and so it's that focus of actually loving people enough to
pull them aside, get to know them and, and help put them in
the right direction. Excuse me, but that's, that's a
(30:33):
valuable thing. And I think a lot of times it's
like we only have a couple things in our heads.
There's only a few positions to fill in a church.
And I think this is where we go dead wrong, where you have your
music people, you have your preaching, teaching people, you
have your custodian, you know, like that's, you know, a lot of
times you can't think of anything else really beyond
(30:53):
those things, which I think is if that's the case, that is a
huge oversight, a huge mistake, a, a huge disservice to the body
of Christ. Yeah.
And, and if we're going to focuson people like you're talking
about, then another way to also think about this, especially if
if you're a church leader, is that when God sends a new
(31:16):
individual or group of individuals to your church and
they become a part of your church, God is God, the Holy
Spirit is, is actively shaping your church for the mission he
has for your church. OK.
And so that that shaping continues as God continues to
(31:36):
add differently gifted people who are each unique in their own
right. And I think that's an amazing
thing. But a lot of times, I guess we
have the hardening, hardening ofthe arteries in churches and we
have these programs and God helpus, those programs have to stay
alive or, you know, that's it. But if God is shaping churches
(31:59):
by adding new people, then we need to be attentive to that and
listening, learning. It's a hard thing to do.
I was a pastor and you know, it's nice to have an
organization that hums along really nice.
But I don't know, it's, it's theactive body of Christ.
It's alive. True, it gets a little messy
sometimes. It will all part of it.
(32:22):
So what can churches do to foster the, the culture of this,
of gifts, I guess, and, and withthe idea of, of the gifts being
the benefit of the whole body tothe benefit to others and, and
what can churches do to help foster that or what pitfalls do
(32:42):
they avoid and that that stiflesthat, I guess.
Yeah, let me say a couple thingsabout that in the middle of the
book. In chapters 9 and 10, I I talk
specifically about church valuesfor church and I talk about four
areas, teaching and growth and fellowship and service.
(33:04):
And so I give guidance to pastors and church leaders in
terms of how to, if you were going to use this journey view
of gifts to, to help believers in your church recognize their
giftedness, develop their giftedness and serve in their
giftedness, what you would do. And so those two chapters are
dedicated to that. And so there are teaching
(33:27):
themes. There are ways that churches
need to emphasize the importanceof every person growing, not
just standing still in their faith.
There are ways that churches need to be sure they have
basically small group ministrieshappening where deep levels of
fellowship kind of occur and that agape loves can be
(33:48):
happening and then ways of funneling people into service.
And then you mentioned about pitfalls, Nate, and one of one
of the things I talked about in the church in in the book in
chapter 3, which is called crosswisdom.
It's really based on 1st Corinthians 1.
And you know that, you know how the, the, the, the Church of
(34:08):
Corinth was rather dysfunctional, wasn't it?
And I talked about how there wasstratification and separation
and imitation going on in the church at Corinth.
And we see evidences of that in the text and how those really
kill body life and how they likeif people are imitating one
(34:33):
another because, well, I want tobe like her, like him, because
they get a lot of attention. And that's important.
And what I do is it's important.Well, that just suffocates the,
the, the uniqueness of each person as designed by God's
Spirit being who they are and strengthening the whole body.
(34:53):
So you really have to avoid those pitfalls of
stratification, which is thinking some people are more
important than others, separation which is conflict and
strife that that separates us, or imitating people that seem
more impressive if you want to avoid those.
OK. Oh, that's great.
I know it's not a part of the the focus here today, but it's
(35:15):
the same idea with when we try to blur the lines of even gender
and you're losing the wonderful design God has for masculinity
and femininity. And there's a wonderful
compliment that's there and there's a wonderful strength in
both. And when we try to elevate one
(35:35):
more than the other, then there's there's always going to
be something lost every time. So that's, you know, it's along
the same lines, but it's not ourfocus.
So, so I'll, I'll stop with that.
I guess there, but that'd be, that'd be a whole other episode.
You know what those issues? It may not be our focus, but I I
will say that, you know, when we're talking about spiritual
(35:57):
gifts in the church, we're talking about diversity, aren't
we? Yeah.
Reality that there's diversity. Wherever you have people,
there's diversity. So in the church, there's
diversity. Well, the, the society's just
drunk on the whole concept of diversity, isn't it?
So I think that this different way of thinking about spiritual
(36:18):
gifts has something to say to our world, which is focused on
diversity in its own way. And I addressed that also in
Chapter 11. All people are gifted as a part
of the, you know, the whole evangelistic aspect of this.
That's good, I like it. So do you have any, I guess real
(36:43):
life examples of, of just how this process works with someone
as you, you have any, any peopleyou've worked with over the
years? And he's like, oh wow, this.
He's a perfect success story of what I'm trying to teach here.
Or the opposite, or the. Opposite.
Yeah, yeah, that too. I.
Remember, I remember one time, one time I had, I guess I'd
(37:07):
recruited this person to serve on a committee and a church.
And you know, we, we ended up dealing with a lot of
dysfunctional attitudes from this person because while I
could see that this person had gifts for serving and the roles
for which we recruited the person, maturity issues.
(37:29):
We, we, we overlooked those, OK.And I made too many mistakes
when I was a pastor at doing that.
And So what I encourage pastors and, and church leaders to do is
to consider blending recruitmentwith discipleship.
OK, so when we recruit people and, and I have, you know, I had
(37:52):
some wonderful success stories about this in ministry.
People I recruited for certain roles because I saw in them the
gifts for that role, that particular area of ministry, and
they also or had enough of maturity level to deal with
whatever the dynamics were of the role they were going to be
(38:14):
in. So that's what you want.
And so in the book, what I do inPart 2 is I tell a story.
I put myself in the role of a pastor, and I'm recruiting a
young, young adult male to servein our youth ministry, and I
begin to work toward recruiting him.
But then I find out that, oh, there's some maturity issues
(38:37):
that need to be resolved. What am I going to do?
Am I going to show those to the side?
I need to fill the position. Let's get at it and kind of take
a blind eye toward his, his needs for growth.
But instead, I choose a path of blending my work with him to
grow in Christ and to deal with the issues he's got to deal with
(38:58):
and, and then at the appropriatetime to help him step into the
ministry role. So it's been a long, long time
since I've been a pastor. I'm retired now and I was a
pastor for 20 years and then I was a chaplain after that for
15. So my my memory of a lot of my
pastoral experiences is back in the dark ages.
(39:21):
And he he does. Bill does walk through scenario
with the first name Jayden as well.
It's in the book and things. So there is some real scenarios
there to help bring the teachingalive a bit, you know, to help
you imagine it a little better. That's good.
I, I can't give away everything you got to go buy the book, you
(39:43):
know. So as one of the issues with,
with something like this, you want to be careful not to say
too much and there is still enough to be desired.
So I do want to encourage peopleto go out and get the book.
But before, before we wrap up here, I'll just give a final
opportunity. I, I've, I've discussed
everything that I wanted to bring up.
(40:05):
Nate, was there anything last that you wanted to say?
And then after that, then Bill will let you have last word on
that. Yeah, I would say just just as
you know, as we're getting readyto close, just kind of a recap
and is there what's a, what's a tangible step listeners can take
(40:27):
to re engage with their spiritual gifts as a journey?
By the book. Besides by.
The book I can read it. Yeah, I think that probably my
heart is, you know, for people to be in in authentic, sincere
(40:48):
relationships with one another that help edify one another and
that we would be growing, each of us.
And so I would say that one of the most difficult things for us
to do is to develop some really close Christian relationships in
which we are, we are honest about who we are and where we're
(41:10):
at and our journeys and our friends are too.
And then we're there for one another too, as we were talking
about before. Speak the truth and love and
walk with one another in a persevering way as we watch one
another grow in Christ. And so I have found it's very
difficult to maintain having those authentic kinds of
(41:35):
relationships, but I think it's got to be our goal.
I think that's what scriptures are pointing us to.
So I think start praying about that and asking God, what are
the obstacles in myself to to having those kinds of
relationships and then start taking the risk of talking to a
few who you think would be the closest to you or the most
(41:57):
trustworthy to see where they'reat in their need for
relationships. That's.
Good, good. Yeah.
And see, this is a very different thing because most
books about spiritual gifts and authors who have written those
aren't talking about relationships like this.
(42:17):
I think that if we do, we're missing something important in
Scripture and we're not going todevelop our potentials the way
God designed us to. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. It always comes back to
relationship, even though I liketo just to point out to people
that you know, the Bible doesn'tsay, doesn't talk about when you
(42:40):
get to heaven. It talks about being with
Christ. So even on that level, you know,
in Christ, with Christ for Christ, things like that's
always about relationship with God, relationship with people.
And that's really what life is, is, is all about is, you know,
you don't want to be on an isolated island by yourself.
(43:02):
And if you if you miss out on relationships, you're missing
out on life. Really.
Yeah. So all right.
Any any closing thoughts for us brother?
Yeah, You know, I I mentioned spiritual growth and in the
conclusion I said if I had published this book many years
ago, I would probably have been my main goal would have been to
(43:27):
get people to learn about this different view of gifts and see
that it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
But after going through many experiences of of ministries in
which I was kind of down and dirty helping people deal with
the real tough obstacles to growth in their lives.
(43:51):
That's where my heart really is.So my interest is not so not
that people would necessarily read the book and agree with me,
but that people would link with one another in sincere love and
grow thereby through God's truth.
And I think that if, if you would look at this different way
(44:13):
of thinking about gifts, it would help because you would
realize, wow, each of us is thisamazing, fascinating expression
of God like no one else. And that would really juice up
those relationships and our desire to to find out how God
made me and how God made you andhow that is amazing.
(44:37):
But it's all about growth. We got to be growing.
Right on. That's wonderful.
And actually, I haven't been addressing you as a doctor, Bill
Smart and and I I, I just want to say this because he's such a
a meek and mild man and humilitythere and has never demanded it,
(44:57):
never suggested it. He has earned it, however.
Yeah, he's just a a kind guy. So if you want to, if you want
to read, read from the real dealhere, then Spiritual Gifts
Reimagined, I know for us all, yeah, it's kind of like that
blurred background. It's not showing up well, but
you can see pieces of it. And we'll have the description,
the link in the description there along with some other
(45:19):
links as website and things, so.Where's the best place to buy
it? That's on Amazon.
That's the best I can say. OK, perfect.
There you go. Look it up on Amazon, it'll be
there. So awesome.
That works for us, yeah. That's the that's the easiest
way for me to buy books. Awesome.
(45:40):
All right, well, thank you. Appreciate you coming on with us
and and discussing it so and indulging my silly questions.
Hey everybody, this is Brains Bibles and beyond.
I am Nate Day and this is Joel Willoughby and we are so glad
that you have joined us for another episode.
And. Today we have a special guest.
Yeah, well, it's actually not today.
We recorded this a while ago andwe have a special guest on this
(00:21):
episode. In the recent past.
In the recent past, yes. We did an interview with Bill
Smart and. Joel's going to just talk about
his book a little bit, yeah. I don't want to say too much,
I'm already going to say here ina moment.
But the book is spiritual. Gifts Reimagined the Journey
view by Bill Smart can check it out on Amazon.
I'm not sure about other places but I know Amazon for sure.
It's right there. Great book, good read.
(00:44):
I recommend it, but watch the episode.
We we brought in the A-Team, so we're not going to like it, all
right? Let's get started guys.
Well, all. Right.
So for our first segment, beforewe get started on interview, you
(01:06):
got it. We have our favorite segment of
the day. Oh boy.
Stump the theologian. Pressure's on.
Where we all get to come with questions to make Joel not look
smart, All right. So the rules of the.
Game. If we can get a question that
(01:26):
Joe cannot satisfactory answer, we are winners.
Very subjective, but yeah. Yeah, I mean.
It's just something we do. So today's question is, how old
were the disciples? At what point right now?
They're all over 2000 years old.I think.
(01:48):
I think it's like when they werewith Jesus, like when he called.
Them they were how old? All right, So between two to
three years is all that. They're actually there together
with, you know, and John would have been the youngest 1.
And I don't have any sources on me or anything because it's off
the top of my head. But what I from my understand is
(02:09):
anywhere from like 13 to 16 years old, that would have been
John the young guy. And then Peter is the old guy.
And so he probably have been like in his 30s.
I. Think he was that old?
Yeah, maybe, I mean it, it couldbe like maybe even into maybe
early 40s or something. But yeah, probably like a 30s.
So probably around Jesus age, a little bit older than Jesus as
(02:30):
far as his earthly ministry goes.
Yep. You think that's that's the
range basically, I think. They're that old.
We know Peter was the only one that was mentioned to be
married, so we just all see we as the oldest.
He definitely. Yeah.
Well, and he was the, you know, John beat him to the tomb
racing. Sure, he was the younger guy and
Peter was the older guy. It's all it's Andrew, then I
don't. Know they're brothers.
(02:52):
I just always assume they're alllike around like, you know, late
teenage 1718 range. But I don't Yeah, I know just
because wasn't wasn't that was that traditionally when you.
Picked your rabbi. When you're around like 17.
Well, you know, you had to show some promise within the
(03:12):
educational system, and then that kind of determined how good
of a rabbi you could even get. Sure, but you?
In this case, the rabbi picked them well.
It has to be a mutual. Little bit different, but
typically. It was a great honor, you know,
somebody, anybody came to you and said, hey, come be my
disciple kind of thing. It'd be like a hot dog, you
know? OK, so bottom line is you have
(03:35):
no idea how old they were. That's.
Just the the best guess. That I know.
It's like basically out there, but I just can't think of any
sources or anything, which is kind of scary.
So I think it's like the the young and old end and everyone
else was just kind of thrown in the mix.
Someone, somewhere in the middle.
How did we know John was the youngest?
Just because he lived the longest.
It's been so long since I even looked at this but I just
(03:56):
remember this in my head as likemy.
Conclusion All right, all right.I think we found a stumper then
he didn't know it off the top ofhis head without looking stuff
up, I think, I think we have a win, guys.
I think we have a win. OK, all right, on to the
interview everybody, and welcomeback.
We have a special guest with us here today.
This is Bill Smart and he is theauthor of Spiritual Gifts
(04:20):
Reimagined the Journey View, andhe has a Master of Theology from
Dallas Theological Seminary and a Doctor of Ministry from
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.
It's kind of a mouthful there. But anyway, welcome to our show,
Bill. Thank you very much.
(04:43):
Yeah, it's great to have you. I I got in touch with Bill
through LinkedIn. I believe it was there and we
started talking and he was kind enough to send me his book to
check out. I like it.
And so I wanted to pass it on and I'll, I'll show it to you
for the from our YouTube listeners here.
I got a blurred background, so I'm trying to get it back in
(05:04):
there. It did show up earlier, but the
spiritual gifts reimagined the journey view.
There it is. That's not really coming
through, is it? I'm trying to get it close to
you. It's not there.
There it goes. There you go.
Almost. You know what?
You see it now. We'll, we'll.
Include that, we'll include the link in.
That in our description. Yeah, then you'll see it for
sure. And we'll include there's a,
(05:26):
there's a website and any other information that we might bring
up or something we can, we'll put in the description here.
So no worries on that one. But this, this is an
interesting, it's a, it's a, it's an interesting view.
I, I read through it and I thought, Oh yes, this is
actually right in line with a lot of what I've been thinking.
(05:46):
And of course he articulates things well and that's why I
like it, but didn't really quitethink about how it was
different. So maybe was, we'll start there.
Bill, if you would just kind of give us an overview of the book,
you know, very broad, 30,000 feet up in the air kind of look
and just kind of talk to you howit would be different than some
(06:08):
of the other popular views when people would would bring up
spiritual gifts. Sure.
Well, I'll mention three areas in particular that are
highlights of how what I call the journey view of spiritual
gifts is different than, you know, the popular way of
thinking. The popular view of gifts is
(06:30):
sometimes summed up by saying it's the view that we get these
added gifts at some point in ourjourney.
And so the journey view of spiritual gift says three things
in particular that are differentthan that.
One is that the journey view emphasizes that our gifts must
(06:51):
be developed along our journey of spiritual growth rather than
us being passive and kind of automatic receivers of gifts at
salvation. OK, so giftedness is developed
over the journey of spiritual growth.
Secondly, the journey view focuses on agape love
(07:15):
relationships as a context for gift discovery rather than
focusing on testing as a method for gift discovery.
Now I don't disagree with using testing sometimes, but I think
the priority ought to be on agape love relationships.
And then thirdly, the journey view emphasizes the the gifted
(07:40):
uniqueness of each person ratherthan stopping with categorizing
people. So the emphasis on gift
development rather than automatic receiving, emphasis on
love relationships over testing,and emphasis on gifted
(08:00):
uniqueness rather than simply categorizing people.
Talk a little bit more about theidea of relationships with this
How would my relationships help me to discover how God's
designed me or that to help improve in that?
(08:23):
Yeah, You know, we all know thatright in the middle of Paul's
discussion of spiritual gifts inFirst Corinthians that you've
got the love chapter in there, right?
So he's talking about gifts in 12, talks about gifts in 14.
Here in the middle, we got this thing on love.
Love is patient, love is kind, etcetera.
(08:43):
And I think that's in there for a reason.
And the thing that I emphasize in my book is that we need
brothers and sisters in Christ who are motivated by agape love.
We're patient with us, perseverein relationship with us and help
us to do a good job of listeningto our own hearts to see what is
(09:06):
the giftedness that God has put in there.
Because a lot of times our our focus in life is on the tasks we
have to do next or the jobs thatneed to be done in the church or
other things. And God has placed within each
of us the potentials that that are called gifts that we need to
discover. But unless we pay attention to
(09:28):
what's going on inside of our hearts and how God is using
life's circumstances to develop those gifts and potentials,
we're going to miss what those are.
So we need brothers and sisters in Christ to walk with us in
agape love, patiently listen to us, and help us discover the
(09:49):
gold, the treasure that God's put in each of us.
Does that make sense? I just want to have one
clarifying points. I think that there might be some
people in my audience that when you say agape, love agape, maybe
they've never really heard of itbefore.
I think most have. But then could you just clarify
what distinction that is, what that means?
(10:10):
Yeah, well, agape is the Greek word that's used very often in
the New Testament for love. There are some other words also
used for love, but the one that is really prioritized in
Scripture is this agape love, sometimes thought of as
unconditional love. Love that has the best of the
other person as top priority andis very much interested in
(10:33):
serving whatever is in that person's best.
And what could be better for somebody than to discover who
God made them uniquely to be andbecome?
Yeah, that's good. I, I, I like that.
I'm in full agreement with the idea that God has designed each
(10:54):
of us with this. You know, we'll use the word
gift just to keep it the same with with a gift and whether
they end up believing or not, you know, they guys designed
them that way. I think it's in Romans 11 maybe
somewhere. So I've kind of top of my head
here a little bit, but it says something like, depending on
your translation, the gifts and calling of God is irrevocable.
(11:18):
You know, that it, it's not taken away, it doesn't matter.
He's, he's given it from the beginning, essentially.
And it's our job as the church body to help identify these
things and bring it out, you know, hone it in, help it to
flourish. I think so.
You know what isn't? It isn't so encouraging where
(11:40):
whether when a brother in Christor a sister in Christ comes to
you and says I see thus and sucha potential in you or I see an
amazing expression of God working through you in other
people's lives when you do this or when you do that.
Wow, that's that up that upliftsme, you know, or when a brother
(12:01):
or sister in Christ and agape love comes to me and says, you
know, I think you really have potential in this area, but this
or that seems to be hindering itin your life.
Well, that's not very pleasant, is it?
But it it is speaking the truth in love, you know.
Yeah, very important. Boy is that I was just having a
(12:24):
conversation yesterday with somebody and they brought it up
about how a lot of churches havereally missed the boat on
speaking truth and love. Either it's a lot of truth
without love and it's destructive, or it's a lot of
kind of fluffy love without truth and that's also
(12:44):
destructive. And I think that, you know that
what we call constructive criticism, you know, you're
you're edifying is what it is and it comes out it's so
important. Why the Ephesians 4?
It's like kind of right in the centerpiece there of Ephesians,
this whole building up, you know, kind of like verses one
through 16 about unifying and the church grows the church and
all sort of stuff. And it's somewhere and like
(13:06):
probably like verse 1415 somewhere like that is where it
says the speaking truth and love.
I like to point out that, you know, it's like literally just
like true thing in love, you know, and of course we speaking
is the smoothing of the translation and and it's a good
translation that way, but it's just that idea of true thing is
kind of even bigger. You know, it's like all of us,
(13:27):
you know, we was like 80%, I think.
I think the percentage is a little bit made-up, but
something like 80% of our communication is non verbal.
Think about everything we do, even our tone of voice and
whatnot, right? So every everything's important
that we're genuine with people and I think people can see see
that for what it is. And we genuinely are true thing
(13:49):
in love. The church grows and that
includes this this idea of giftsas well.
Yeah. Another verse that I camp on a
lot that's similar is in First Corinthians 13, I think it's
verse 6, where it says that lovedoes not rejoice in
unrighteousness, but rejoices inthe truth.
(14:12):
I think it's, I may be paraphrasing, but that's
powerful, you know? And so I need brothers and
sisters in Christ who when I've strayed and there's
unrighteousness in my life, theygrieved and they let me know
that they're grieving. Or when I, when I'm living
according to the truth, they rejoice in that and they let me
(14:33):
see that they're rejoicing. And that guides me that that
impels me on to grow. Yes, talk to me a little bit
about because I think that there's a lot of people that
might be a little bit confused about the idea of unbelievers
being gifted. What exactly you might mean by
like, what would it, what would it look like?
(14:54):
I guess that's the bigger, you know, clarifying point.
Yeah. How?
How can they be gifted and stillbeing, you know, not regenerated
by the Holy Spirit? Right, this, this goes to the
heart of a, a distinction between this view I have of
gifts called the journey view versus the popular view.
(15:17):
And the popular view says that you, the Spirit of God gives
gifts. And since you get the Spirit of
God when you come to Christ as Savior, that's when you get
gifts. So which I think is a rather
mechanical way of thinking. But, but I think that the giving
and receiving of our spiritual gifts is stated in Scripture as
(15:42):
a metaphor, not a, not a concrete transaction that
happens at a certain point in time.
So I think that our gifts are potentials that God, they're
from God and they're built into us by his creation of us.
So we're born with them. So therefore, if we're born with
them, obviously then all people have them, all people have
(16:04):
various potentials, right, A variety of potentials.
So, so therefore unbelievers have gifts.
I don't know if you want to callthem Karasmada or spiritual
gifts, but unbelievers have gifts.
We we see that all the time, youknow, throughout society and in
our friends. So what does it look like you
said, well, a lot of times we have these potentials, but we're
(16:27):
not using them in God honoring ways.
We're using them for self honoring, all right, Or we're
using them in causes that don't build the Kingdom of God or
sometimes people who don't have the spirit of God in their
lives. And this can be true of
Christians as well. Nevertheless, have not developed
(16:47):
those potentials. Those potentials remain dormant
or stunted or hidden. So that can be the case with
unbelievers. And so I devote a chapter of my
book called All People Are Gifted to how this understanding
of gifts can help us with evangelism.
Because if I'm gifted and my unsaved friend is also gifted,
(17:11):
we have some common ground thereand we can meet over this, over
the journey of developing our potentials and I can introduce
how Christ makes a difference inthat for me.
So it can look like a whole different range of things.
Even if unbelievers are using their gifts in wonderful
(17:33):
altruistic ways to serve others,which many are, maybe the motive
deep inside is self glory. Something like that that.
Makes sense. Yeah, I like in Page 3 of the
book here in the beginning, there was something that kind of
jumped out to me because I like to talk about beauty and how it
(17:56):
proves the creator and things. And I think we have an episode
somewhere where I mentioned thatyeah, naysayaking says yes, so
it's somewhere in the the the analog there.
But Page 3 at the bottom paragraph says beauty is his
signature, and he knew we humanswould be amazed and awed by the
stunning masterpieces that flowed out of the heart of our
(18:19):
world's creator. Since God obviously values
beauty, he himself must have first been thrilled, feeling
deep joy as he imagined and crafted all that magnificence.
And I really like that. Beauty is a signature.
I absolutely believe that. And, and that's kind of the,
that you really set the stage with this idea and how there's
(18:41):
this beautiful panoramic that God has crafted here among
humanity. And so I think it's really great
view. And I like the that you, you
bring out the evangelistic perspective there that you are,
you're getting to know people and you're understanding their
value, not just in a general intrinsic way, but getting even
(19:03):
a little bit more specific how unique to them and recognizing
how God has designed them specifically in their
giftedness. And then, you know, showing
that, hey, you know, I've seen this before kind of a thing, you
know, maybe myself, maybe I'm the same way or someone else.
And just the difference that Christ can make.
Yeah, I really appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of
(19:30):
another emphasis of the journey view of gifts is to put a real
emphasis on Christ. I have a statement in my book
somewhere. It says that Jesus doesn't get
much mention in most books on spiritual gifts.
But Jesus is of course one who maxed out the unique identity
(19:51):
and potentials that he had. And so he's a model for us of
what that looks like. And and he was a servant and
sacrificially so, of course. And so all of that is a model
for us as we grow and develop our giftedness and as we talk to
(20:12):
unbelievers and say, look, Jesusis example of somebody who had
potentials and realized them. And here's what it that looked
like pretty powerful, I think. It seems to me that the example
we're given by Jesus seen through the Gospels is, is in
such a way that no matter how God's designs you, you can
(20:35):
relate, then you can find a better way to fulfill your
design to God's glory. You know, by following Christ's
example. It's really interesting.
He was kind of, you know, he waseverything to everyone, The
perfect example for literally everyone, which is an
interesting, that's kind of a mind blowing idea, right?
(20:57):
That one man, obviously he's gone, but one man could be the
perfect example for all you know, every individual of
humanity. Yeah, Yeah.
You know, it's, it's very interesting that that's true.
And at the same time, he didn't mind disappointing people
because he was focused on his mission.
(21:20):
And if that was a disappointmentto you, as it was, we know to
many, well, you know, this is the mission.
This is who I am. Right, Yeah, fantastic stuff.
Sometimes, you know, we'll, we'll get, maybe it's getting a
little off topic now perhaps, but we'll get, you know, a bit
(21:41):
burnt out, worn out. And it's because we didn't stay
on mission. And I, I found myself in that
error quite a few times in life.You know, God wants to do
certain things that can't be thehero for every 'cause that's out
there, you know, kind of a thing.
So, yeah, it's important, important life lesson there.
Absolutely. All right, Nate, I think I've
(22:04):
been hogging a lot of this. I've had a previous conversation
with with brother Bill here myself before.
So, but, but Nate, as you've been listening to this, is there
anything, any points of clarification you'd like to have
or a question you'd like to ask him?
Yeah, so I guess I'm just tryingto wrap my mind around the the
(22:26):
whole concept here. So I mean, I, I totally agree
that we're all gifted by God, you know, when we're created,
you know, he gives each of us gifts.
Is that just, is that strictly what you're calling spiritual
gifts? Or are there other gifts that he
then also bestows upon us once we are Christians?
(22:51):
Or is it more just he helps us find what those gifts are and,
and reach the full potential andwe've all had them all along.
Is, is there, is there somethingthere where everybody just has
gifts when they're when they're born and then there's more added
by the Holy Spirit later or we just all have them all the whole
(23:11):
time? I guess, yeah.
One thing I want to clarify in beginning to answer your
question they is has to do with the lists of gifts in the
epistles. And I do not think that those
lists in the various epistles are lists of abilities that we
(23:38):
are given. OK.
I think that what those lists are.
Well, when I started to develop a different view of gifts, one
of the first thoughts I had was that, oh, you know, Paul and
Peter with a shortlist, you know, they weren't handed on
stone tablets from heaven by God, a list of gifts, you know,
(24:02):
written by his finger. And I realized, oh, they came.
They made-up their own lists. How did they do that?
And I think that what they did was Paul and Peter.
They looked at local churches, they looked at the body of
Christ, and they saw a diversityof people in churches, just like
we do today. And what did they do?
(24:22):
They classified the diversity that they saw in churches.
And that's what those lists are.Those are categories of people.
Their category labels is what they are.
And so I don't think that the New Testament presents to us
that there are these added abilities that are out there.
(24:42):
And then we have to talk about like your question is, you know,
when do we get them? How do we get them to that type
of thing? I think that those lists are
categories of people. So to your question of, you
know, when do we get those gifts?
Are there multiple points at which we can get those gifts?
(25:03):
I don't think there are abilities that are added to us.
I think that we are born with certain potentials.
Now, there is one category of gifts that's a little different.
That's the supernatural gifts, which involves some divine
initiation. So that's a little bit
different, but it still falls into categories of people who
have those gifts because there are others who don't.
(25:24):
So I think we're born with thosepotentials.
I think that we discover them. We're supposed to discover them
along our journeys of growth. We may or we may not, depending
on whether we're growing or not.And the further we go down our
journey journeys of growth, the more we can develop and discover
(25:44):
and use those gifts to bless others.
I don't know if that answered your question.
Yeah, I know. I think it does.
So I appreciate that, that that helps.
So what? What are some practices that
people can do or exercises that would help us figure out or, or
discover those gifts that that we we all have, I guess, you
(26:07):
know, created into US? Yeah.
Well, one of the things I I would suggest in response to
that is at the back of my book, I've got a couple of worksheets
and one is called The Gifting Journey.
And what it does, it's a, it's kind of a, A, yeah, a series of
questions that ask you to look at your past, look at your
(26:30):
present and look at your future and answer some questions.
And some of those questions haveto do with the the experiences
of life, particularly the trialsin life that got allowed into
your life to grow you and what you learned about yourself in
those particular trials. And so that's one exercise is to
(26:53):
use a tool like that to considerwhat God had did, did develop in
you through life's trials, what he is developing and what you
anticipate he may in the future develop.
And the other thing is you can do this in tandem with other
brothers and sisters in Christ to help you see what you're not
(27:13):
going to see yourself. So those are the few things that
kind of reflection, that kind ofhelp from from brothers and
sisters in Christ. And there's a, there's the two
different worksheets in the back.
They have the, the ones about, you know, love and then explains
it. And then the other one is about
(27:33):
more of the actual, you know, design.
But either way, it explains it. And so that that's, that's
pretty nice. I like that a lot.
And then in case someone, I thought this might be helpful in
case one doesn't really know what we're talking about when we
say like these lists of gifts kind of thing.
So like for example, in Romans 12, we have a list and this is
(27:55):
where we would say that these are these are people here as you
were describing before. So Romans 12 verse 6 having
gifts that differ according to the grace given to us.
Let's let us use them if prophecy in proportion to our
faith if service and our serving.
The one who teaches and is teaching, the one who exhorts in
his exhortation, one who contributes in his generosity,
(28:18):
the one who leads with zeal, theone who does acts of mercy with
cheerfulness. So you know that that kind of a
thing there. And so you have and it's you
know, just think about this might be an easier 1.
You know the givers there. There are people that God is
really wired to, even to build wealth and then to give it.
(28:40):
And maybe they haven't built their wealth, but they're still
easily just give, give, give. They stay able to see needs.
They're problem solvers with with, you know, currency kind of
a thing. You know, there's, there's God's
work to be done, who's going to help get it done.
And I've met a couple of these people in my own ministry and
hopefully I meet more, but we'llneed that.
(29:03):
But the idea is that a quick commercial, if you are getting
OK, never mind. All right, So no, but yeah,
there's, I've seen him in action.
And a lot of times they're very quiet about it.
They're very humble people. But God has given them this
ability to meet needs like this,to supply it, which is really,
(29:23):
really cool. And then you just look at all
those other gifts as well, the service.
There's a lot of background people, you know, in every
church. You're going to have your, you
know, your givers, you're going to have your always in the
shadows servants type people. You don't really see them up
front or anything. Your your leaders and things.
You just go through that list. You know, that's just one of
them there. But in Romans 12, verses 6
(29:46):
through 8, and I think you'll start to see this as people and
I hope you do out there. So I think that is true.
And so then recognize them so that you see somebody and you
think to yourself, now how does this person fit in?
Because 100% of the population in the church building should
(30:07):
fit in somewhere. They have some sort of value
profits. They're they're a contribution
to the body of Christ and the community around them.
And, and so it's that focus of actually loving people enough to
pull them aside, get to know them and, and help put them in
the right direction. Excuse me, but that's, that's a
(30:33):
valuable thing. And I think a lot of times it's
like we only have a couple things in our heads.
There's only a few positions to fill in a church.
And I think this is where we go dead wrong, where you have your
music people, you have your preaching, teaching people, you
have your custodian, you know, like that's, you know, a lot of
times you can't think of anything else really beyond
(30:53):
those things, which I think is if that's the case, that is a
huge oversight, a huge mistake, a, a huge disservice to the body
of Christ. Yeah.
And, and if we're going to focuson people like you're talking
about, then another way to also think about this, especially if
if you're a church leader, is that when God sends a new
(31:16):
individual or group of individuals to your church and
they become a part of your church, God is God, the Holy
Spirit is, is actively shaping your church for the mission he
has for your church. OK.
And so that that shaping continues as God continues to
(31:36):
add differently gifted people who are each unique in their own
right. And I think that's an amazing
thing. But a lot of times, I guess we
have the hardening, hardening ofthe arteries in churches and we
have these programs and God helpus, those programs have to stay
alive or, you know, that's it. But if God is shaping churches
(31:59):
by adding new people, then we need to be attentive to that and
listening, learning. It's a hard thing to do.
I was a pastor and you know, it's nice to have an
organization that hums along really nice.
But I don't know, it's, it's theactive body of Christ.
It's alive. True, it gets a little messy
sometimes. It will all part of it.
(32:22):
So what can churches do to foster the, the culture of this,
of gifts, I guess, and, and withthe idea of, of the gifts being
the benefit of the whole body tothe benefit to others and, and
what can churches do to help foster that or what pitfalls do
(32:42):
they avoid and that that stiflesthat, I guess.
Yeah, let me say a couple thingsabout that in the middle of the
book. In chapters 9 and 10, I I talk
specifically about church valuesfor church and I talk about four
areas, teaching and growth and fellowship and service.
(33:04):
And so I give guidance to pastors and church leaders in
terms of how to, if you were going to use this journey view
of gifts to, to help believers in your church recognize their
giftedness, develop their giftedness and serve in their
giftedness, what you would do. And so those two chapters are
dedicated to that. And so there are teaching
(33:27):
themes. There are ways that churches
need to emphasize the importanceof every person growing, not
just standing still in their faith.
There are ways that churches need to be sure they have
basically small group ministrieshappening where deep levels of
fellowship kind of occur and that agape loves can be
(33:48):
happening and then ways of funneling people into service.
And then you mentioned about pitfalls, Nate, and one of one
of the things I talked about in the church in in the book in
chapter 3, which is called crosswisdom.
It's really based on 1st Corinthians 1.
And you know that, you know how the, the, the, the Church of
(34:08):
Corinth was rather dysfunctional, wasn't it?
And I talked about how there wasstratification and separation
and imitation going on in the church at Corinth.
And we see evidences of that in the text and how those really
kill body life and how they likeif people are imitating one
(34:33):
another because, well, I want tobe like her, like him, because
they get a lot of attention. And that's important.
And what I do is it's important.Well, that just suffocates the,
the, the uniqueness of each person as designed by God's
Spirit being who they are and strengthening the whole body.
(34:53):
So you really have to avoid those pitfalls of
stratification, which is thinking some people are more
important than others, separation which is conflict and
strife that that separates us, or imitating people that seem
more impressive if you want to avoid those.
OK. Oh, that's great.
I know it's not a part of the the focus here today, but it's
(35:15):
the same idea with when we try to blur the lines of even gender
and you're losing the wonderful design God has for masculinity
and femininity. And there's a wonderful
compliment that's there and there's a wonderful strength in
both. And when we try to elevate one
(35:35):
more than the other, then there's there's always going to
be something lost every time. So that's, you know, it's along
the same lines, but it's not ourfocus.
So, so I'll, I'll stop with that.
I guess there, but that'd be, that'd be a whole other episode.
You know what those issues? It may not be our focus, but I I
will say that, you know, when we're talking about spiritual
(35:57):
gifts in the church, we're talking about diversity, aren't
we? Yeah.
Reality that there's diversity. Wherever you have people,
there's diversity. So in the church, there's
diversity. Well, the, the society's just
drunk on the whole concept of diversity, isn't it?
So I think that this different way of thinking about spiritual
(36:18):
gifts has something to say to our world, which is focused on
diversity in its own way. And I addressed that also in
Chapter 11. All people are gifted as a part
of the, you know, the whole evangelistic aspect of this.
That's good, I like it. So do you have any, I guess real
(36:43):
life examples of, of just how this process works with someone
as you, you have any, any peopleyou've worked with over the
years? And he's like, oh wow, this.
He's a perfect success story of what I'm trying to teach here.
Or the opposite, or the. Opposite.
Yeah, yeah, that too. I.
Remember, I remember one time, one time I had, I guess I'd
(37:07):
recruited this person to serve on a committee and a church.
And you know, we, we ended up dealing with a lot of
dysfunctional attitudes from this person because while I
could see that this person had gifts for serving and the roles
for which we recruited the person, maturity issues.
(37:29):
We, we, we overlooked those, OK.And I made too many mistakes
when I was a pastor at doing that.
And So what I encourage pastors and, and church leaders to do is
to consider blending recruitmentwith discipleship.
OK, so when we recruit people and, and I have, you know, I had
(37:52):
some wonderful success stories about this in ministry.
People I recruited for certain roles because I saw in them the
gifts for that role, that particular area of ministry, and
they also or had enough of maturity level to deal with
whatever the dynamics were of the role they were going to be
(38:14):
in. So that's what you want.
And so in the book, what I do inPart 2 is I tell a story.
I put myself in the role of a pastor, and I'm recruiting a
young, young adult male to servein our youth ministry, and I
begin to work toward recruiting him.
But then I find out that, oh, there's some maturity issues
(38:37):
that need to be resolved. What am I going to do?
Am I going to show those to the side?
I need to fill the position. Let's get at it and kind of take
a blind eye toward his, his needs for growth.
But instead, I choose a path of blending my work with him to
grow in Christ and to deal with the issues he's got to deal with
(38:58):
and, and then at the appropriatetime to help him step into the
ministry role. So it's been a long, long time
since I've been a pastor. I'm retired now and I was a
pastor for 20 years and then I was a chaplain after that for
15. So my my memory of a lot of my
pastoral experiences is back in the dark ages.
(39:21):
And he he does. Bill does walk through scenario
with the first name Jayden as well.
It's in the book and things. So there is some real scenarios
there to help bring the teachingalive a bit, you know, to help
you imagine it a little better. That's good.
I, I can't give away everything you got to go buy the book, you
(39:43):
know. So as one of the issues with,
with something like this, you want to be careful not to say
too much and there is still enough to be desired.
So I do want to encourage peopleto go out and get the book.
But before, before we wrap up here, I'll just give a final
opportunity. I, I've, I've discussed
everything that I wanted to bring up.
(40:05):
Nate, was there anything last that you wanted to say?
And then after that, then Bill will let you have last word on
that. Yeah, I would say just just as
you know, as we're getting readyto close, just kind of a recap
and is there what's a, what's a tangible step listeners can take
(40:27):
to re engage with their spiritual gifts as a journey?
By the book. Besides by.
The book I can read it. Yeah, I think that probably my
heart is, you know, for people to be in in authentic, sincere
(40:48):
relationships with one another that help edify one another and
that we would be growing, each of us.
And so I would say that one of the most difficult things for us
to do is to develop some really close Christian relationships in
which we are, we are honest about who we are and where we're
(41:10):
at and our journeys and our friends are too.
And then we're there for one another too, as we were talking
about before. Speak the truth and love and
walk with one another in a persevering way as we watch one
another grow in Christ. And so I have found it's very
difficult to maintain having those authentic kinds of
(41:35):
relationships, but I think it's got to be our goal.
I think that's what scriptures are pointing us to.
So I think start praying about that and asking God, what are
the obstacles in myself to to having those kinds of
relationships and then start taking the risk of talking to a
few who you think would be the closest to you or the most
(41:57):
trustworthy to see where they'reat in their need for
relationships. That's.
Good, good. Yeah.
And see, this is a very different thing because most
books about spiritual gifts and authors who have written those
aren't talking about relationships like this.
(42:17):
I think that if we do, we're missing something important in
Scripture and we're not going todevelop our potentials the way
God designed us to. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. It always comes back to
relationship, even though I liketo just to point out to people
that you know, the Bible doesn'tsay, doesn't talk about when you
(42:40):
get to heaven. It talks about being with
Christ. So even on that level, you know,
in Christ, with Christ for Christ, things like that's
always about relationship with God, relationship with people.
And that's really what life is, is, is all about is, you know,
you don't want to be on an isolated island by yourself.
(43:02):
And if you if you miss out on relationships, you're missing
out on life. Really.
Yeah. So all right.
Any any closing thoughts for us brother?
Yeah, You know, I I mentioned spiritual growth and in the
conclusion I said if I had published this book many years
ago, I would probably have been my main goal would have been to
(43:27):
get people to learn about this different view of gifts and see
that it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
But after going through many experiences of of ministries in
which I was kind of down and dirty helping people deal with
the real tough obstacles to growth in their lives.
(43:51):
That's where my heart really is.So my interest is not so not
that people would necessarily read the book and agree with me,
but that people would link with one another in sincere love and
grow thereby through God's truth.
And I think that if, if you would look at this different way
(44:13):
of thinking about gifts, it would help because you would
realize, wow, each of us is thisamazing, fascinating expression
of God like no one else. And that would really juice up
those relationships and our desire to to find out how God
made me and how God made you andhow that is amazing.
(44:37):
But it's all about growth. We got to be growing.
Right on. That's wonderful.
And actually, I haven't been addressing you as a doctor, Bill
Smart and and I I, I just want to say this because he's such a
a meek and mild man and humilitythere and has never demanded it,
(44:57):
never suggested it. He has earned it, however.
Yeah, he's just a a kind guy. So if you want to, if you want
to read, read from the real dealhere, then Spiritual Gifts
Reimagined, I know for us all, yeah, it's kind of like that
blurred background. It's not showing up well, but
you can see pieces of it. And we'll have the description,
the link in the description there along with some other
(45:19):
links as website and things, so.Where's the best place to buy
it? That's on Amazon.
That's the best I can say. OK, perfect.
There you go. Look it up on Amazon, it'll be
there. So awesome.
That works for us, yeah. That's the that's the easiest
way for me to buy books. Awesome.
(45:40):
All right, well, thank you. Appreciate you coming on with us
and and discussing it so and indulging my silly questions.
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