November 27, 2023 • 20 mins
We welcome back Fred Jacobs, the media visionary and founder of Jacobs Media Strategies, known for creating the Classic Rock format in the 80s.
This time, Fred emphasizes the importance of innovation in the radio industry. He expresses optimism about radio's future and ways you can succeed, but he also highlights the need for creative formats and reaching diverse audiences.
We also dig into podcasting, where Fred expresses a somewhat bearish outlook on stand-alone podcasts due to saturation and challenges in audience discovery and monetization, but also shares ways in which established radio brands can still use podcasts to advantage.
As always, Fred provides key insights into what we can learn from radio’s past, present, and thoughts on our future, touching on topics like podcasting, AI, and marketing strategies.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fred (00:00):
Uh, we're really in a, a period and, and we've been in a period
for a long time where there hasn'tbeen a great deal of innovation.
That's not a winning strategyin an environment like the
one we're in, struggling.
VO (00:14):
Welcome to BRANDwidth on Demand, your guide to rebooting radio.
Fred (00:19):
We don't have to market anymore.
Everybody knows who we are and what we do.
Obviously that was a bad rationalization.
But even things like bumper stickers,and you'll hear broadcasters
to this day say nobody will puta bumper sticker on their car.
But they're putting bumperstickers on laptops.
I mean, people do want to displaybrands they love and brands they use.
VO (00:41):
BRANDwidth on Demand.
Rebooting radio with a differenttake on all radio can be.
Now, your guides through the mediamorphosis, David Martin, and author
of the book, BRANDwidth, MediaBranding Coach, Kipper McGee.
Dave (00:57):
Fred Jacobs is a media visionary and the founder and president of Jacobs
Media Strategies, a consulting firmthat specializes in the radio industry.
And also digital media.
He's known as the creator of classicrock radio formats, which debuted in
the early 80s in America and is nowheard in hundreds of markets in the U.
S.
and also around the world.
(01:18):
Fred's a frequent speaker atindustry events and continues
to write extensively about theradio industry and digital media.
If you're not reading his dailyblog while you're missing out,
we'll link to it in our show notes.
He's a passionate advocate for radio andbelieves that it has a bright future,
even in the face of digital disruption.
He's also the co hostof an annual CES tour.
(01:40):
He started back in 2009 with his brother.
And we highly recommend that by theway, it's coming up in 2024 too!
BRANDwidth on Demand is proudto welcome back Fred Jacobs.
Hey, Fred, Fred,
Fred (01:53):
wow.
What an ovation.
Thank you guys.
No, that was really a swell introduction.
It's, uh, it's been a whilesince we've seen each other.
You know, we're.
We're running out of conferences to goto because they're disappearing, sadly.
Yes, yes, sadly.
Isn't that weird?
I know.
There used to be too many ofthem and now there aren't enough.
I mean, how does that happen?
Kipper (02:13):
Hardly any.
Well, first, congrats on40 years of consulting.
I mean, that's, that's a milestone too.
Yeah, that kind of snuck up on us alittle bit and actually linked in.
Right.
Yes.
Congratulate Fred on his work anniversary.
Uh, all of a sudden one daythey started coming in and it's
(02:36):
like, holy crap, it's 40 years.
So yeah, it's, it's a really nice thing.
Uh, you know, for, for me,the real big benefit is for.
Forty years I haven't hadto worry about what's next.
That's for sure.
Right, which used to be the questionthat hounded the young Fred.
Uh, back in his formative years, youknow, yeah, this is great, but where
(02:59):
am I going to be a year from now?
You know, that I, I was that guy.
So
yes, we were all, I think,radio nomads to one extremer.
Fred (03:09):
Right.
I mean, what market am I goingto be in a year from now?
Right.
And I sure don't want to be here.
So yeah, so no, it's, it's, uh, I'm reallyblessed, you know, I have nothing, but
gratitude as that milestone comes up.
I did not think that would happen butit has, so it's, it's really nice.
Kipper (03:31):
So can you share with us like one particularly brilliant moment that you've
witnessed during your client client run?
Fred (03:40):
So, you know, going back to Dave's introduction, it was obviously
for me, the classic rock format.
I mean, I, I really wanted to notjust be a typical consultant, I
wanted to do stuff, or make thingsthat might actually be unique.
And the format turnedout to be, exactly that.
(04:01):
And it was not for a lack of...
Hardship on the way up.
It took me quite a while to getthis thing sold and established.
Nobody really knew whoI was back at that time.
I did not have much of an industry profileand frankly, nobody really thought it
was a really cool idea to devote an FMstation to, a format that just played old
(04:23):
stuff without currents, especially at atime when, you know, MTV was exploding.
And the Hot Hits format was goingcrazy in radio, and here I am running
around going, No, it's an all goldformat and it's going to last.
And I wasn't actually sure of that.
So, uh, right?
(04:44):
So, yeah, that was kind of the thing.
And, you know, guys, it ended up,uh, pitting me against some...
Really incredible radiostations that I had nothing
but respect for over the years.
And, you know, suddenly here I amcompeting against KMET and The Loop and
WMMS and KY 102 and all these stations.
(05:07):
So it, it was really an excitingtime for me, um, and it still
continues to be, you know, the format.
It obviously has legs and has kindof morphed and evolved and done a few
things that I might not have been ableto predict, uh, 35 or so years ago,
but yeah, it's, it's, it's been great.
(05:28):
So yeah, for me, that's probablybeen the coolest thing I've
been blessed to be a part of.
Yeah.
Kipper (05:34):
Excellent.
Dave (05:36):
Well, Fred, I mean, you've got a real streak of contrarian there that I
think serve you and the industry well.
Radio being, uh, what it is, a lotof naysayers recently, yet you remain
very bullish on audio, including radio.
So, to start on an upbeat note here,what do you see as today's biggest
opportunities for stations and forindividuals at the station level?
Fred (05:58):
So, I still think as an industry we, we have upside, but it's not going
to be achieved in the conventional ways.
I mean, we are still...
Sort of, for the most part, everywhere.
I was at a conference a numberof years ago that Paul moderated
(06:18):
a panel with Tim Westergren,formerly the creator of Pandora.
And Paul asked Tim if he actuallyever listened to broadcast radio.
Dave (06:28):
And Tim said, you know, I'm jealous of broadcast radio.
You guys are a one button solution.
You're easy to listen to and you're free.
And that really stuck with me.
I mean, here was one of radio's archcompetitors and, and here he was kind
of coming up with the, the rationale.
(06:48):
So I, I do think radio has a lot of thingsgoing for it, but, uh, we're really in a
period and, and we've been in a period fora long time, as you guys know, where there
hasn't been a great deal of innovation.
in the radio broadcasting industry whenit comes to formats or content creation.
(07:10):
We've pretty much kind ofbeen steady as, as she goes.
And that, that's not a winning strategyin an environment like the one we're in.
So, I mean, that's one of the reasonswhy we do the CES thing every year.
I mean, we, we need that infusion ofinnovation and embracing new ideas.
(07:31):
But I, I think there areformats to be created.
I, I think there are audiences to reachthat we have walled ourselves off from.
And so a regular theme in the blog thesepast few months has been suggesting that
people maybe look at the industry a littledifferently, kind of turn things on their
(07:53):
side, get out from under that 30 year.
Uh, self enforced 25 to54 year old demographic.
And let's start thinking about goingnorth of that or south of that.
Cause there's a lot of audiencethere and there's money there
if we go about it the right way.
So yes, I think there's upside,but we're not going to get
(08:14):
there the way we're going now.
Kipper (08:17):
So Fred, what's your current read on podcasting, especially as it
impacts radio stations and personalities.
Fred (08:26):
So I've become somewhat bearish at at this point, and I'll tell you why.
In terms of its impact on radio,there's no question that podcasting
is erosive to broadcast radio.
The more people get into podcasts, themore they move away from linear radio as.
(08:49):
Some people like to call this so there'sthat but the reason that I'm bearish
really doesn't have anything to do withthat I I look at the podcast landscape now
and I see a marketplace that is totallySaturated with content that people seem to
have trouble finding there are still murkytechnical details that flummox people
(09:17):
Who are trying to get into podcasting.
I mean, every year in Tech Survey, wekind of come up with a fairly similar
number, and it's in the 50 to 60 percentrange of our overall radio audience, who
either never listens to a podcast, ordoes so, so infrequently, that it's not
really part of their audio, uh, habit.
(09:39):
And I, I feel like, you know, this...
This platform's been arounda long time now, and it is
still struggling to achieve QM.
In a meaningful way.
I mean, we still see more people listeningto podcasts this year than last year.
But again, that 60 percent linefor me is really a problem I think.
(10:03):
And then there's the ROI piece, right?
I mean, not all podcastsare created equal.
There's a podcast like we're doing here.
Where it's three guys sittingaround overhead's not going
to be completely absurd.
So kudos to you guys for finding away to do this that is cost effective.
But, as we know, some reallygreat podcasts out there are
(10:25):
like Game of Thrones, you know?
They've got a cast of thousands,and it takes a long time to...
Crank out an episode.
And I don't think a whole lot of strategicthinking has up to this point gone into,
can we afford to produce that podcast?
Can we actually make back andeven then some our investment?
(10:49):
No research is being done inthe field, really, to speak of.
I mean, we all come out of radio,right, where we've researched
everything now for decades.
Right?
The music and the personalitiesand how, how long should this be?
And do they like thisbenchmark over others?
And yet you talk to a podcaster and yougo, so what's working exactly for you?
(11:12):
And they kind of go, well,uh, our downloads are up.
And I'm like, wow, that's likesaying our ratings are better.
I mean, that doesn't reallytell you a whole lot.
So I think for a lot of radio companiesthat aren't iHeart, there are much less
expensive digital avenues to go downwhere you can actually create cool stuff
(11:36):
and not have it cost an arm and a leg.
And you can actually make moneyon, on these things and attract.
New audience so we're headed down someof those paths I mean any broadcaster who
says I've got a killer idea for a podcast.
I'll push them really hard to To reallywrite that business plan for the podcast
(11:58):
because I'm dubious After all theseyears and you know one more thing you
take a look at you know WNYC in New YorkYou know, which is really considered to
be the biggest, maybe most successful.
Uh, public radio station in the country.
They've got their own podcasting wing.
(12:20):
Empire.
Right.
Exactly.
WNYC studios.
And a week or two ago, uh, you know,I'm dating your podcast, but a week
or two ago, they laid off 14 percentof their staff, much of whom are
part of the podcasting division.
And they are sunsetting whatappeared to be some popular podcasts.
So, you know, I, I look at that andI think, wow, I mean, podcasting
(12:44):
in this country kind of came outof public radio to a great degree.
That's where some of the seminal podcastsand, and podcasting geniuses came out.
And here's WNYC strugglingand NPR struggling.
So that's a really long winded answer,Kipper, but I'm, I'm kind of thinking,
you know, maybe don't try this at home ifyou don't really know what you're doing.
Kipper (13:09):
Good movie.
Dave (13:10):
Good points, Sam.
You recently presented, speakingof research, your AQ5 results
at the Morning Show Boot Camp.
Can you share some of the highlights,Fred, and what they mean for young
people who are interested in a career inbroadcasting, as well as info and tips for
radio vets that want to remain relevant?
Fred (13:28):
So, I think one of the key findings, Dave, is that when you ask
veteran on air professionals if theyhad to do it all over again, what kind
of company would they like to work for?
They will tell you, to a great degree,not one of the bigger companies, one
(13:48):
of the medium or smaller companies.
And I think that really is a...
Paradigm shift, right?
Because the three of us got intoradio when it was all about...
I gotta get to Chicago, New York, or L.
A.
I mean, right?
If I don't work my way up throughthe small and medium and medium
large and largest markets, Ihave not had a great career.
(14:11):
And here we've got the majorityof on air talent, including people
working in big markets now for bigcompanies kind of going, you know,
if I had to do it all over again,I think I would scale down a bit.
So I, I found that to be a,uh, a big finding this year.
There's a lot of fear of AI.
(14:33):
I, I had to include questionsabout that for obvious reasons.
I mean, we need to get theair talent side of this.
We have every other side exceptthe people who are to a great
degree in fear of being replaced.
So to me, that's one ofthe big takeaways here is.
If you have a great brand, you canextend it, but do it the right way.
(14:56):
It's way too easy to fail.
Dave (14:59):
We can all learn something from the Hall of Famer, Fred Jacobs.
That's for sure.
Somebody you'd love to hear from.
We'd love to hear your suggestions.
Email us show at brand with on demand.
com or reach out to us on social brandwith plus on Insta, Facebook, and Twitter.
Oh, that's X that's brandwith P L U S brand with plus.
Kipper (15:23):
And Fred, along with the entire Jacobs have lots of great
resources, all free to you, includingFred's AQ5 study and the webinar
replay, his blog, and got so much more.
Just tap the links in the show notes.
Dave (15:40):
Coming up, Fred shares one thing that works so well,
radio just stopped doing it.
Spot (15:46):
Music Master, less stress, more yes.
Hey, this is Dave Tyler.
And maybe it's just me, but I love uptemposongs coming out of the legal ID at the
top of the hour, as well as out of mystop sets, it's kind of like saying,
all right, we're done with business.
Let's get back to the party to do this.
I use clock filters in thesepositions that only choose
medium up or uptempo songs.
(16:08):
Sounds great.
Every time.
And it's.
Easy to set up.
If you have any questions, just shootme an email at Dave at music, master.
com.
Music master music, schedulingthe way it should be.
Kipper (16:20):
Hey there, Kipper here and ready or not, holidays are here.
So one way you can help outyour listeners and your bottom
line is with radio swag shop.
You just give them some coolholiday artwork, pick your items.
They do the rest.
They'll do the sales website.
(16:42):
They handle the fulfillment,the transaction.
All your station has to do is sit backand reap the holiday swag shop easy.
Just follow the link in the show notesor go to radio swag shop.com and be
sure to use the coupon code kipper.
That's Radio swag Shop.
(17:03):
Coupon Kipper your listeners andyour station's holiday budget.
will thank you
VO (17:09):
stuff that worked so well, we stopped doing it friend with on demand
Dave (17:15):
We're back with the hall of fame guy fred jacobs fred Would you share
one thing that you believe has worked sowell that radio just stopped doing it?
Fred (17:26):
Yeah, we stopped marketing, David.
I mean, that's, that's right, because itworked well, but, you know, I think this
attitude kind of permeated during theearly years of consolidation back in the
90s that we don't have to market anymore.
Everybody knows who we are and what we do.
And obviously that was a badrationalization, but even things
(17:48):
like bumper stickers and you'llhear broadcasters to this day
say, nobody will put a bumpersticker on their car, but they're
putting bumper stickers on laptops.
I mean, people do want to displaybrands they love and brands they use.
So the stoppage of marketing.
Uh, you know, to throw that money tothe bottom line, as they say, I think
(18:11):
radio really did a pretty good job.
Collectively as an industry,marketing his products in all kinds
of interesting and unique ways, andsadly, that has come to a grinding halt.
And I think not coincidentally, uh,the industry has certainly suffered.
Over the years where marketinghas been virtually non existent.
Kipper (18:34):
And interestingly, if our clients practiced what we preached,
there'd be no income for the industry.
Fred (18:41):
Yeah.
Well, there's that point too.
Um, but you know, one thingleads to another, right?
I mean, you, you keep pulling the.
Pick up sticks out of the structure andeventually the structure just collapses.
I mean, you, you can't keepthrowing money to the bottom line
and cutting, cutting, cutting.
You're not gonna havea whole lot left, so.
(19:01):
Mm hmm.
Uh huh.
Dave (19:04):
Our thanks to Hall of Famer Fred Jacobs.
We have links to Fred's blog, tons ofresearch, and more all in the show notes.
Just scroll down on your phone.
Kipper (19:12):
As always, special thanks to our exec producer Cindy Huber who put
this all together, and to Hannah B,our associate producer for booking.
Speaking of which coming up next,
Corey (19:24):
hi, it's Corey Dylan from 100.
7 Big FM at Local Media, San Diego.
And we're coming up next.
Hope you'll stick around tohear the best pieces of advice.
Yes, three different pieces of advicethat I got one from a mentor in radio.
One from George Clooney,not personally, I wish.
And the third from actor Brian Cranston.
(19:44):
Stick around.
Dave (19:45):
That's a wrap, Kipper.
Never stop learning.
We're gonna talk about learningin One-Minute Martinizing.
Find it in the show notesat BRANDwidthondemand.com.
I'm Dave Martin.
Kipper (19:55):
And I'm Kipper McGee.
May all your BRANDwidth be wide.
Uh, we're really in a, a period and, and we've been in a period
for a long time where there hasn'tbeen a great deal of innovation.
That's not a winning strategyin an environment like the
one we're in, struggling.
VO (00:14):
Welcome to BRANDwidth on Demand, your guide to rebooting radio.
Fred (00:19):
We don't have to market anymore.
Everybody knows who we are and what we do.
Obviously that was a bad rationalization.
But even things like bumper stickers,and you'll hear broadcasters
to this day say nobody will puta bumper sticker on their car.
But they're putting bumperstickers on laptops.
I mean, people do want to displaybrands they love and brands they use.
VO (00:41):
BRANDwidth on Demand.
Rebooting radio with a differenttake on all radio can be.
Now, your guides through the mediamorphosis, David Martin, and author
of the book, BRANDwidth, MediaBranding Coach, Kipper McGee.
Dave (00:57):
Fred Jacobs is a media visionary and the founder and president of Jacobs
Media Strategies, a consulting firmthat specializes in the radio industry.
And also digital media.
He's known as the creator of classicrock radio formats, which debuted in
the early 80s in America and is nowheard in hundreds of markets in the U.
S.
and also around the world.
(01:18):
Fred's a frequent speaker atindustry events and continues
to write extensively about theradio industry and digital media.
If you're not reading his dailyblog while you're missing out,
we'll link to it in our show notes.
He's a passionate advocate for radio andbelieves that it has a bright future,
even in the face of digital disruption.
He's also the co hostof an annual CES tour.
(01:40):
He started back in 2009 with his brother.
And we highly recommend that by theway, it's coming up in 2024 too!
BRANDwidth on Demand is proudto welcome back Fred Jacobs.
Hey, Fred, Fred,
Fred (01:53):
wow.
What an ovation.
Thank you guys.
No, that was really a swell introduction.
It's, uh, it's been a whilesince we've seen each other.
You know, we're.
We're running out of conferences to goto because they're disappearing, sadly.
Yes, yes, sadly.
Isn't that weird?
I know.
There used to be too many ofthem and now there aren't enough.
I mean, how does that happen?
Kipper (02:13):
Hardly any.
Well, first, congrats on40 years of consulting.
I mean, that's, that's a milestone too.
Yeah, that kind of snuck up on us alittle bit and actually linked in.
Right.
Yes.
Congratulate Fred on his work anniversary.
Uh, all of a sudden one daythey started coming in and it's
(02:36):
like, holy crap, it's 40 years.
So yeah, it's, it's a really nice thing.
Uh, you know, for, for me,the real big benefit is for.
Forty years I haven't hadto worry about what's next.
That's for sure.
Right, which used to be the questionthat hounded the young Fred.
Uh, back in his formative years, youknow, yeah, this is great, but where
(02:59):
am I going to be a year from now?
You know, that I, I was that guy.
So
yes, we were all, I think,radio nomads to one extremer.
Fred (03:09):
Right.
I mean, what market am I goingto be in a year from now?
Right.
And I sure don't want to be here.
So yeah, so no, it's, it's, uh, I'm reallyblessed, you know, I have nothing, but
gratitude as that milestone comes up.
I did not think that would happen butit has, so it's, it's really nice.
Kipper (03:31):
So can you share with us like one particularly brilliant moment that you've
witnessed during your client client run?
Fred (03:40):
So, you know, going back to Dave's introduction, it was obviously
for me, the classic rock format.
I mean, I, I really wanted to notjust be a typical consultant, I
wanted to do stuff, or make thingsthat might actually be unique.
And the format turnedout to be, exactly that.
(04:01):
And it was not for a lack of...
Hardship on the way up.
It took me quite a while to getthis thing sold and established.
Nobody really knew whoI was back at that time.
I did not have much of an industry profileand frankly, nobody really thought it
was a really cool idea to devote an FMstation to, a format that just played old
(04:23):
stuff without currents, especially at atime when, you know, MTV was exploding.
And the Hot Hits format was goingcrazy in radio, and here I am running
around going, No, it's an all goldformat and it's going to last.
And I wasn't actually sure of that.
So, uh, right?
(04:44):
So, yeah, that was kind of the thing.
And, you know, guys, it ended up,uh, pitting me against some...
Really incredible radiostations that I had nothing
but respect for over the years.
And, you know, suddenly here I amcompeting against KMET and The Loop and
WMMS and KY 102 and all these stations.
(05:07):
So it, it was really an excitingtime for me, um, and it still
continues to be, you know, the format.
It obviously has legs and has kindof morphed and evolved and done a few
things that I might not have been ableto predict, uh, 35 or so years ago,
but yeah, it's, it's, it's been great.
(05:28):
So yeah, for me, that's probablybeen the coolest thing I've
been blessed to be a part of.
Yeah.
Kipper (05:34):
Excellent.
Dave (05:36):
Well, Fred, I mean, you've got a real streak of contrarian there that I
think serve you and the industry well.
Radio being, uh, what it is, a lotof naysayers recently, yet you remain
very bullish on audio, including radio.
So, to start on an upbeat note here,what do you see as today's biggest
opportunities for stations and forindividuals at the station level?
Fred (05:58):
So, I still think as an industry we, we have upside, but it's not going
to be achieved in the conventional ways.
I mean, we are still...
Sort of, for the most part, everywhere.
I was at a conference a numberof years ago that Paul moderated
(06:18):
a panel with Tim Westergren,formerly the creator of Pandora.
And Paul asked Tim if he actuallyever listened to broadcast radio.
Dave (06:28):
And Tim said, you know, I'm jealous of broadcast radio.
You guys are a one button solution.
You're easy to listen to and you're free.
And that really stuck with me.
I mean, here was one of radio's archcompetitors and, and here he was kind
of coming up with the, the rationale.
(06:48):
So I, I do think radio has a lot of thingsgoing for it, but, uh, we're really in a
period and, and we've been in a period fora long time, as you guys know, where there
hasn't been a great deal of innovation.
in the radio broadcasting industry whenit comes to formats or content creation.
(07:10):
We've pretty much kind ofbeen steady as, as she goes.
And that, that's not a winning strategyin an environment like the one we're in.
So, I mean, that's one of the reasonswhy we do the CES thing every year.
I mean, we, we need that infusion ofinnovation and embracing new ideas.
(07:31):
But I, I think there areformats to be created.
I, I think there are audiences to reachthat we have walled ourselves off from.
And so a regular theme in the blog thesepast few months has been suggesting that
people maybe look at the industry a littledifferently, kind of turn things on their
(07:53):
side, get out from under that 30 year.
Uh, self enforced 25 to54 year old demographic.
And let's start thinking about goingnorth of that or south of that.
Cause there's a lot of audiencethere and there's money there
if we go about it the right way.
So yes, I think there's upside,but we're not going to get
(08:14):
there the way we're going now.
Kipper (08:17):
So Fred, what's your current read on podcasting, especially as it
impacts radio stations and personalities.
Fred (08:26):
So I've become somewhat bearish at at this point, and I'll tell you why.
In terms of its impact on radio,there's no question that podcasting
is erosive to broadcast radio.
The more people get into podcasts, themore they move away from linear radio as.
(08:49):
Some people like to call this so there'sthat but the reason that I'm bearish
really doesn't have anything to do withthat I I look at the podcast landscape now
and I see a marketplace that is totallySaturated with content that people seem to
have trouble finding there are still murkytechnical details that flummox people
(09:17):
Who are trying to get into podcasting.
I mean, every year in Tech Survey, wekind of come up with a fairly similar
number, and it's in the 50 to 60 percentrange of our overall radio audience, who
either never listens to a podcast, ordoes so, so infrequently, that it's not
really part of their audio, uh, habit.
(09:39):
And I, I feel like, you know, this...
This platform's been arounda long time now, and it is
still struggling to achieve QM.
In a meaningful way.
I mean, we still see more people listeningto podcasts this year than last year.
But again, that 60 percent linefor me is really a problem I think.
(10:03):
And then there's the ROI piece, right?
I mean, not all podcastsare created equal.
There's a podcast like we're doing here.
Where it's three guys sittingaround overhead's not going
to be completely absurd.
So kudos to you guys for finding away to do this that is cost effective.
But, as we know, some reallygreat podcasts out there are
(10:25):
like Game of Thrones, you know?
They've got a cast of thousands,and it takes a long time to...
Crank out an episode.
And I don't think a whole lot of strategicthinking has up to this point gone into,
can we afford to produce that podcast?
Can we actually make back andeven then some our investment?
(10:49):
No research is being done inthe field, really, to speak of.
I mean, we all come out of radio,right, where we've researched
everything now for decades.
Right?
The music and the personalitiesand how, how long should this be?
And do they like thisbenchmark over others?
And yet you talk to a podcaster and yougo, so what's working exactly for you?
(11:12):
And they kind of go, well,uh, our downloads are up.
And I'm like, wow, that's likesaying our ratings are better.
I mean, that doesn't reallytell you a whole lot.
So I think for a lot of radio companiesthat aren't iHeart, there are much less
expensive digital avenues to go downwhere you can actually create cool stuff
(11:36):
and not have it cost an arm and a leg.
And you can actually make moneyon, on these things and attract.
New audience so we're headed down someof those paths I mean any broadcaster who
says I've got a killer idea for a podcast.
I'll push them really hard to To reallywrite that business plan for the podcast
(11:58):
because I'm dubious After all theseyears and you know one more thing you
take a look at you know WNYC in New YorkYou know, which is really considered to
be the biggest, maybe most successful.
Uh, public radio station in the country.
They've got their own podcasting wing.
(12:20):
Empire.
Right.
Exactly.
WNYC studios.
And a week or two ago, uh, you know,I'm dating your podcast, but a week
or two ago, they laid off 14 percentof their staff, much of whom are
part of the podcasting division.
And they are sunsetting whatappeared to be some popular podcasts.
So, you know, I, I look at that andI think, wow, I mean, podcasting
(12:44):
in this country kind of came outof public radio to a great degree.
That's where some of the seminal podcastsand, and podcasting geniuses came out.
And here's WNYC strugglingand NPR struggling.
So that's a really long winded answer,Kipper, but I'm, I'm kind of thinking,
you know, maybe don't try this at home ifyou don't really know what you're doing.
Kipper (13:09):
Good movie.
Dave (13:10):
Good points, Sam.
You recently presented, speakingof research, your AQ5 results
at the Morning Show Boot Camp.
Can you share some of the highlights,Fred, and what they mean for young
people who are interested in a career inbroadcasting, as well as info and tips for
radio vets that want to remain relevant?
Fred (13:28):
So, I think one of the key findings, Dave, is that when you ask
veteran on air professionals if theyhad to do it all over again, what kind
of company would they like to work for?
They will tell you, to a great degree,not one of the bigger companies, one
(13:48):
of the medium or smaller companies.
And I think that really is a...
Paradigm shift, right?
Because the three of us got intoradio when it was all about...
I gotta get to Chicago, New York, or L.
A.
I mean, right?
If I don't work my way up throughthe small and medium and medium
large and largest markets, Ihave not had a great career.
(14:11):
And here we've got the majorityof on air talent, including people
working in big markets now for bigcompanies kind of going, you know,
if I had to do it all over again,I think I would scale down a bit.
So I, I found that to be a,uh, a big finding this year.
There's a lot of fear of AI.
(14:33):
I, I had to include questionsabout that for obvious reasons.
I mean, we need to get theair talent side of this.
We have every other side exceptthe people who are to a great
degree in fear of being replaced.
So to me, that's one ofthe big takeaways here is.
If you have a great brand, you canextend it, but do it the right way.
(14:56):
It's way too easy to fail.
Dave (14:59):
We can all learn something from the Hall of Famer, Fred Jacobs.
That's for sure.
Somebody you'd love to hear from.
We'd love to hear your suggestions.
Email us show at brand with on demand.
com or reach out to us on social brandwith plus on Insta, Facebook, and Twitter.
Oh, that's X that's brandwith P L U S brand with plus.
Kipper (15:23):
And Fred, along with the entire Jacobs have lots of great
resources, all free to you, includingFred's AQ5 study and the webinar
replay, his blog, and got so much more.
Just tap the links in the show notes.
Dave (15:40):
Coming up, Fred shares one thing that works so well,
radio just stopped doing it.
Spot (15:46):
Music Master, less stress, more yes.
Hey, this is Dave Tyler.
And maybe it's just me, but I love uptemposongs coming out of the legal ID at the
top of the hour, as well as out of mystop sets, it's kind of like saying,
all right, we're done with business.
Let's get back to the party to do this.
I use clock filters in thesepositions that only choose
medium up or uptempo songs.
(16:08):
Sounds great.
Every time.
And it's.
Easy to set up.
If you have any questions, just shootme an email at Dave at music, master.
com.
Music master music, schedulingthe way it should be.
Kipper (16:20):
Hey there, Kipper here and ready or not, holidays are here.
So one way you can help outyour listeners and your bottom
line is with radio swag shop.
You just give them some coolholiday artwork, pick your items.
They do the rest.
They'll do the sales website.
(16:42):
They handle the fulfillment,the transaction.
All your station has to do is sit backand reap the holiday swag shop easy.
Just follow the link in the show notesor go to radio swag shop.com and be
sure to use the coupon code kipper.
That's Radio swag Shop.
(17:03):
Coupon Kipper your listeners andyour station's holiday budget.
will thank you
VO (17:09):
stuff that worked so well, we stopped doing it friend with on demand
Dave (17:15):
We're back with the hall of fame guy fred jacobs fred Would you share
one thing that you believe has worked sowell that radio just stopped doing it?
Fred (17:26):
Yeah, we stopped marketing, David.
I mean, that's, that's right, because itworked well, but, you know, I think this
attitude kind of permeated during theearly years of consolidation back in the
90s that we don't have to market anymore.
Everybody knows who we are and what we do.
And obviously that was a badrationalization, but even things
(17:48):
like bumper stickers and you'llhear broadcasters to this day
say, nobody will put a bumpersticker on their car, but they're
putting bumper stickers on laptops.
I mean, people do want to displaybrands they love and brands they use.
So the stoppage of marketing.
Uh, you know, to throw that money tothe bottom line, as they say, I think
(18:11):
radio really did a pretty good job.
Collectively as an industry,marketing his products in all kinds
of interesting and unique ways, andsadly, that has come to a grinding halt.
And I think not coincidentally, uh,the industry has certainly suffered.
Over the years where marketinghas been virtually non existent.
Kipper (18:34):
And interestingly, if our clients practiced what we preached,
there'd be no income for the industry.
Fred (18:41):
Yeah.
Well, there's that point too.
Um, but you know, one thingleads to another, right?
I mean, you, you keep pulling the.
Pick up sticks out of the structure andeventually the structure just collapses.
I mean, you, you can't keepthrowing money to the bottom line
and cutting, cutting, cutting.
You're not gonna havea whole lot left, so.
(19:01):
Mm hmm.
Uh huh.
Dave (19:04):
Our thanks to Hall of Famer Fred Jacobs.
We have links to Fred's blog, tons ofresearch, and more all in the show notes.
Just scroll down on your phone.
Kipper (19:12):
As always, special thanks to our exec producer Cindy Huber who put
this all together, and to Hannah B,our associate producer for booking.
Speaking of which coming up next,
Corey (19:24):
hi, it's Corey Dylan from 100.
7 Big FM at Local Media, San Diego.
And we're coming up next.
Hope you'll stick around tohear the best pieces of advice.
Yes, three different pieces of advicethat I got one from a mentor in radio.
One from George Clooney,not personally, I wish.
And the third from actor Brian Cranston.
(19:44):
Stick around.
Dave (19:45):
That's a wrap, Kipper.
Never stop learning.
We're gonna talk about learningin One-Minute Martinizing.
Find it in the show notesat BRANDwidthondemand.com.
I'm Dave Martin.
Kipper (19:55):
And I'm Kipper McGee.
May all your BRANDwidth be wide.
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