Episode Transcript
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Mike (00:00):
Radio still has a great
reach, but we have allowed the
listening experience to deteriorate.
VO (00:09):
Brandwidth.
Rebooting radio with a differenttake on all radio can be.
Mike (00:16):
I think radio has to fail
much worse before it gets better.
Mm hmm.
That's the controversial part.
VO (00:22):
Now your guides through the
mediamorphosis, David Martin, and
author of the book, Brandwidth,Media branding coach, Kipper McGee.
Dave (00:32):
Hey Kipper, today we
celebrate our 200th episode.
We do it with someone well versedin navigating the ins and outs
of the evolving media landscape.
The celebrated radio veteran, MikeMcVay, from an impressive programming
run on the station and corporate levels,he now returns to consulting, which
(00:52):
he's done before very successfully.
Mike offers invaluable lessons foraspiring radio professionals on
more things than you can imagine.
Program development, contentperfection, navigating the
ever changing media landscape.
Mike shares the secrets to building,refining and perfecting your career
in today's competitive media industry.
(01:12):
Brain With On Demand is proud towelcome back for our 200th episode,
Industry Sherpa, Mike McVay.
Hey Mike.
Hey.
Mike (01:21):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
But, and what an honor to be onthe 200th episode of your podcast.
I, I, I'm sure I don't need totell you gentlemen how amazing
that feat is to be 200 episodes in.
Congratulations.
I appreciate the opportunity.
Kipper (01:36):
Well, we are so glad to have you.
What advice do you have for professionalsentering the new leadership roles that
are emerging, the new title changes,the new actual shifts in responsibility
to adapt to organizational cultureand Still drive positive change in
(01:58):
a very sometimes negative world.
Mike (02:01):
Well, I remember years ago, one of
my bosses when I suggested we give someone
a title said to me, well, my experienceis people elevate to whatever that title
is, and they'll try to do that job.
And so titles are really very important.
And as the business has changed, contentcreator means so much more today than it
(02:22):
did when we were lowly program directors.
And I joke when I say lowlyprogram directors, because that
job's still very much the same.
It's just, I guess we werealways content creators or brand
managers in what we created.
I think that the thing I would tell topeople today who are entering radio is,
radio is mass media, but you want totake advantage of every part of niche
(02:48):
media It's involved with this mass media,meaning, yes, be over the air and on the
radio or be a content creator, developingthings that are for over the air on the
radio, but also utilize social mediaas a way to drive people to the brand.
Utilize digital in any way youcan, YouTube, video, audio, every
(03:12):
platform, podcasting, and thenmake sure that a smart speaker
and an app can get all of it.
What we've seen over the last fewyears, particularly the pandemic, is
the acceleration of people listeningto bytes of content versus sitting
down and devoting hours for content.
(03:32):
And so I think that that's oneof the big things that's changed.
Now, why do I qualify massmedia versus niche media?
Mass media reaching everyone isstill important to drive niche media.
Niche media has a difficulttime surviving on its own.
Niche media is exactly that.
(03:53):
When you look at the DSPs, which are,you know, Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon
Music, so on, that's an amazing business.
And for all intents and purposes, ithas become the record store for today.
But radio, media in general, massmedia has a greater reach than
(04:15):
what any one of these DSPs have.
And so that's what I would say tosomeone coming in today, be prepared
to use it all, not one part of it.
But use it all.
Dave (04:26):
And Mike, what do you see in
terms of new challenges on the horizon?
If you look out a bit, maybe a coupleof years down the road, what do
you see coming that media companiesare going to have to deal with?
Mike (04:39):
Well, I think that they're
dealing with a lot of it now.
Probably the most controversialthing I can say is the audio media
companies, and let's say radio,whether you're hearing it over the air
or on a stream or an app somewhere.
Radio still has a great reach asmentioned, but we have allowed the
(05:03):
listening experience to deteriorate.
And so what the biggest broadcastgroups will have to do is find
new ways to generate revenue whilebringing back the listening experience.
And so the controversialpart of it is this.
I think radio has to fail muchworse before it gets better.
(05:26):
That's the controversial part.
Just because right now peoplestill generate revenue.
They may have debt problems.
But they're generating revenue.
And until we get to that point thatsomeone can bite the bullet and run fewer
commercials and reinvest in the product,we'll see a continual deterioration, but
(05:49):
at some point it will get good again.
I'm not a naysayer sayingit's never going to come back.
But I think we've got to fail morebefore anyone can bite the bullet or that
they can sell to someone inexpensivelyenough that they can invest what it
takes to bring the old girl back.
Kipper (06:10):
Yes.
It's struck me that one thing that mightdo that is some sort of major disaster
or occurrence that causes people toneed radio because you're not going
to have internet with no power grid.
And if I were attacking us,the interweb is probably one of
(06:32):
the first targets I'd go after.
So we can laugh a bit at it, butthose old C Crane commercials for
the hand crank radio that might havereality as well and may just have.
Mike (06:45):
Yeah.
Yeah,
Kipper (06:46):
I don't know.
May just have a little influencein the need for that again.
If the thermonuclear weapons don't nullifyeverything we're trying to send out.
Mike (06:57):
I hope it doesn't take a
nuclear war to bring radio back.
But I do think that, the majorcompanies, look, they, these
companies have debt problems that werecreated by the early consolidators.
For most part, you have a new groupof operators in there, and they're
bailing water as fast as they can.
(07:18):
But I think that until that debt goesaway, they're not going to be able to fix
the challenges that face radio because noone can afford to cut back on commercial
load and generate less revenue right now.
Dave (07:33):
Well, I'm with you.
I'm with you.
Kipper (07:34):
And great morning
duos are becoming singles and
the cuts keep on keeping on.
Mike (07:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It appears that way right now for sure.
Kipper (07:44):
Speaking of budget cuts and
things that have been trimmed back from
what they once were in a recent column,you suggested that we approach radio
marketing with a fresh perspective insome stations are starting to do that.
Some companies are, but most are not.
(08:05):
Could you elaborate on how yousee stations adopting innovative
strategies to really rejuvenatetheir brands and to engage with
their listeners, as you were saying?
Mike (08:17):
You know,
Kipper (08:17):
it's really
practicing what we preach.
And so many radio stations, manyradio companies are now trying to
battle with the digital ad sellers.
Mike (08:28):
They're out there selling digital
ad space in Google ads, they're doing
Facebook, they're attacking social media.
They should be advertisingtheir own brands in these areas.
They should be promoting somethingthat could bring a person to a
radio station or could create aninterest in that radio station.
(08:51):
Digital is such a key competitor toradio, and when I look at what my friends
who are in the advertising businessdo and how they've taken radio and
TV dollars to focus on neighborhoodswith digital ads, It's scary.
And so that's exactly what we shouldbe doing for ourselves in using
(09:16):
digital marketing to promote ourtalent, the music we play, the content
we air, the sports talk and so on.
Dave (09:23):
Excellent point, Mike.
Mike (09:25):
I would also say this though.
One of the things that I learned at themost recent NAB is how Geo broadcasting
systems and targeted broadcasting canallow an advertiser to buy a neighborhood
instead of buying a huge reach.
And so a very good friend of mine inthe Cleveland area buys advertising
(09:46):
for JD Byrider, and the only thinghe really buys in radio and he
is more radio or TV, is sports.
And so when we were talking about it, hesaid, the thing is this, I put so much
of my money into digital because I canbetter target it when I buy advertising.
I don't need the 200,000person Cume on a morning show.
(10:07):
I need 25 people to come into JDByrider and purchase a car this month.
And so I think geo broadcastingtargeted broadcasting, which the
FCC has out there and is approving,that's going to be something that
we can take advantage of as sellers.
For advertising, but alsofor marketing and delivering
content that's better targeted.
Dave (10:30):
You've made a point of this many
times over the years, and that is leaving
a station better than you found it.
How do you do that today?
Mike (10:39):
I think the easiest thing to
do is do your job while you're there.
We're all hired in the contentside to improve ratings.
We're all hired in thesales side to improve sales.
Do your job and accomplish that.
And then as you're exiting,train your successor.
(11:01):
Inform your successor.
Bring them into the loopand be a cheerleader for
them to help them do better.
We, particularly in programming,maybe not so much in the other sides
of the business, but particularly inprogramming, all too often when a program
director leaves a station and it'smaybe third in the ratings and they're
(11:22):
very proud of it, And it goes down, itbecomes an ego boost to them because
they're saying, see, look what I did.
They can't get, they wish theyhad the ratings I used to have,
Kipper (11:33):
right.
Mike (11:34):
But your job is to make
it better and improve it.
So it continues to improve.
And what really prompted all that was Iwas in a Cleveland radio Facebook group.
And someone had taken a shot at menot realizing I was part of the group.
And by the way, I don't mind thatbecause if you're going to put a
(11:54):
spotlight on yourself, you got to beready for people to throw tomatoes.
But the comment the person madewas, is what has Mike McVay
ever done in Cleveland radio?
Every station he ran didbetter after he left.
And my response was, Isn'tthat what it's supposed to do?
I signed magic in Cleveland onfrom scratch and we built it up to
(12:18):
number one, 25, 54 adults and thepeople after me did really well
with it and made it even bigger.
Wasn't that what's supposed to happen?
And then now shift that as a consultant,if you hire me to consult you and the
station fails, then I'm getting fired.
But if you've hired me to consultyou, you've hired me because you
(12:40):
want to improve where the station is.
And make it better.
And so it should be set up that itcontinues to do well after a departure
of whoever your consultant is.
And so how do we do that today?
It's when I said, Dave, I thinkyou do your job to the very best,
but then you hand that baton.
To the person coming behind you.
(13:02):
That's what you do.
Kipper (13:03):
So Mike, we talked a little bit
about what this means for corporations
and what companies are going tobe facing looking into the future.
But if we turn the lens and lookmore on the content creators, the air
talent The promotion people, even theonline folks, what do you see as an
(13:25):
opportunity for individuals to positionthemselves for that success amidst
the ongoing challenges, changes, andyes, people who would like to put
them down for doing better or putthe station down for doing worse.
Mike (13:42):
Well, I mean, there's a book
that I love called the Brand You 50.
that Tom Peters had done years ago,and it's a book that I recommend to a
lot of different people because it'stalking about you as an individual brand
and one of the lines in there, which,by the way, also comes out of the One
Minute Manager, which is when I give myclients what they want I get what I want.
(14:07):
And so if I am successful as a programdirector, brand manager If I am
successful as a promotion director, ifI'm successful as a seller and I give
you what you want, I get what I want.
And so I think that the opportunity forindividuals is to excel at your job.
(14:27):
Unfortunately, editorial comment,he says, I believe we're living
in a world where a lot of peoplejust are happy to get through.
And that's not just our business.
It's every business.
And so I never consideredmyself that smart.
So I decided I had to work harderand I did okay by working harder.
(14:50):
I still, today I'm a nine to nineguy, start my work day at 9 AM.
I finish it at 9 PM.
Cause that's 6 PM in the West coast.
And I have clients that are bi coastal.
And so if I do that, I know that I'mgiving my clients what they want.
And it allows me to continueto excel at what I want.
So how do people who are individualsinside of an organization
(15:12):
do the best job they can?
Figure out what it is.
Your superior leader wants and deliverthat and if you don't want to do
that, then you should leave You shouldleave the people that I talked to
who tried to change the system Oftenend up failing and get fired Because
(15:39):
they just weren't a cog that worked.
Now that's a sad statement, right?
Because there's a lot of brilliantpeople who've been eliminated from
jobs where if they were allowedto do it the way they wanted, they
probably could have succeeded.
But there's also that possibilitythat doing the way they wanted
would have brought down otherparts of the radio station.
(16:03):
And so you got to be a team.
You know, how often do we see a greatquarterback, a pitcher, a goalie in
hockey, who doesn't mesh well withthe team they're on, and they leave,
and then they win a Super Bowl.
Or the Stanley Cup, or Major LeagueBaseball World Series, and there's no
(16:26):
better analogy than looking at whatwe content creators do, than sports.
You gotta be on the right teamthat will maximize your ability
and take advantage of it.
And you fighting with themanager just gets you benched.
Find the right team.
Dave (16:42):
The always insightful Mike McVay,
after 200 episodes we've talked to
a lot of guests, but not everybody.
If there's something you'd loveto hear from or a topic you'd like
us to explore, well, let us know.
Email us show at BRANDwidth onDemand.com or reach out to us on
social BRANDwidthPlus on Instagram,Facebook and X that's BRANDwidthP L U S.
(17:05):
BRANDwidthPlus.
Kipper (17:07):
If you're new to the podcast, we'd
like to say welcome and please be sure
to follow wherever you get your podcasts.
And if you've been with us for awhile, Please be sure to tell a friend,
spread the word future episodes (17:18):
we're
going to be talking to radio pros like
David Moore from the Audacy Phoenixmarket, media researcher turned top
rated podcast producer, Mark Ramsey.
And if you've been wondering how ChatGPT can help with local show prep
for local hosts, stay tuned for theannouncement of Radio Content Pro.
Dave (17:42):
Coming up, we asked
Mike McVay about advice.
VO (17:49):
Luke?
Leia?
Not likely.
Spot1 (17:53):
Hey, kid.
Where is that sound coming from?
I don't know.
That's 3-PO.
Well, sir, it's Altu.
He's been playing music all day.
Well, it's terrible.
I like Bruno Mars as much as thenext guy, but three songs by him
in 20 minutes is getting a bit old.
Well, sir, what time is it?
I've heard about Musicmaster.
They're the galaxy leaderin music scheduling.
(18:14):
There really is no other.
Not so fast.
There is another side.
No thanks.
But Luke, I am what?
Part of the evil empire?
Yeah, we know.
That changed to a maybe.
(18:34):
Nice job, kid.
For details on how you can getout of this world ratings, perfect
rotations, and a sound as smoothas butter, go to musicmaster.
com.
Spot2 (18:47):
Imagine having your own
prep team, working non stop.
A producer picking the best content,a copywriter making every story
hit home, and a marketer findingnew ways to grow your audience.
All while a digital team keeps your feedsfresh with posts, updates, and videos.
(19:08):
What if these pros were available 24seven market exclusive and affordable
for your radio station, power up yourcontent before the competition does with
radio content pro see the demo in action,just scroll down the show notes or visit
RadioContentPro.Com slash BRANDwidth.
VO (19:31):
Listen today, lead
tomorrow, Brandwidth on Demand.
Dave (19:36):
We're talking with an
industry thought leader that
we all respect, Mike McVay.
Hey Mike, what's the one singlebest piece of advice you've
gotten in your storied career?
Mike (19:46):
Wow.
I mean, I've had so manymentors and learned so many
things from so many people.
Probably there were a couple of brothers.
Yeah.
Jim and Bob O'Brien who owned radiostations in Canada and one time we
were sitting in a meeting talkingand I was talking about the strategy
(20:06):
and the steps we had to take toget where we wanted to be and Bob
O'Brien said to me, You know what?
Why wouldn't we make our best move first?
Everybody always says we're going todo this, we're going to do that, and
then we'll make our best move last.
Dave (20:24):
Oh yeah.
Mike (20:25):
Why wouldn't we
make our best move first?
And that one really stuck with me.
I don't think it's applicable toevery situation to be honest, because
there are times when we know we haveto go from A to B to C to get to D
and have D shored up and do well.
But it was one that really stuck with me.
(20:46):
You know, the biggest thing that I'vepresented to programmers, and I'm going
to divide it out a little bit, causethe job changes, but with programmers,
it's the golden rule, do unto othersas you would have them do unto you.
And so when you're treating talentpoorly, that's bad, Treat talent the
(21:06):
way you want to be treated, communicateupwards to your superiors, the way that
you would like to be communicated with.
And so for the content creatorside, I really try to get them to
understand and apply the goldenrule on the side of management.
I try to get people to have a more globalview cause it's so easy to be in a smoke
(21:28):
filled building and not see the exit sign.
And so if I can get people justto hit pause, to step away.
And see where the fire started,then there's a greater chance
for them to put the fire out.
And then probably one other one thatI learned, Musicmasterwhen I got to
(21:48):
one of the big three radio groupsand that is the weight of your words
are heavier than ever and the ripplesthey create greater than ever.
When I came from the consultingworld and Dave, you and Kipper
both worked in large corporationsand had those big executive roles.
But my last full time job whereI wasn't self employed was 1984.
(22:13):
And so, when I joined Cumulus in2011, September 2011, You know, as a
consultant, while people do consultantjokes, by and large, they like you.
Suddenly, that wasn't the case.
Suddenly now, I'm in a corporateworld, and everything I say is
put under a magnifying glass.
Or everything I don't say.
Dave (22:35):
Yeah, right!
Mike (22:36):
Why was that omitted?
And that's put under a magnifying glass.
And so one of the many times, I mean,in the first year at Cumulus, I used up
about five of my nine lives and in oneof those cases that then CEO pulled me in
and said, you know, Mike, in this role,everything you do will be scrutinized.
(22:59):
The weight of your wordsheavier than ever, the ripples
they create greater than ever.
And that's probably thewisest thing I've learned.
Yeah.
That's a great advice.
Yeah.
Our thanks to Mike McVay, he'salways on time, isn't he Kipper?
Links to Mike's website, socials, andrecent articles all in the show notes.
Just scroll down on your phone.
Kipper (23:20):
As always, special thanks
to exec producer Cindy Huber for
putting everything together and to ourassociate producer Hannah B for booking.
Dave (23:29):
That's a wrap, Kipper.
We can all learn somethingfrom the words of Jerry Garcia.
Don't be the best.
You'll find it in the show notes.
It's the new One Minute Martinizing.
I'm Dave Martin.
Kipper (23:43):
And I'm Kipper McGee.
May all your BRANDwidth be WIDE!