September 9, 2024 • 22 mins
Get ready for a deep dive into the future of audio with Steve Goldstein, founder of Amplifi Media and one of the most experienced voices in podcasting today. In this episode, Steve uncovers how the landscape of radio, TV, and print is shifting dramatically as on-demand platforms take center stage. Discover why younger audiences are moving away from traditional media and how you can adapt to capture their attention.
Steve shares why being on multiple platforms is no longer optional and gives real-world examples—like how an episode of SNL exploded from 8 million TV viewers to over 200 million views on social media clips. Learn why "time-shifted audio"
is crucial for keeping your listeners engaged and why repurposing radio content into podcasts needs a smarter approach.
Whether you’re a broadcaster, podcaster, or simply passionate about audio’s future, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to help you evolve, adapt, and thrive in this rapidly changing landscape. Hit play to learn how to stay ahead of the curve, reach new audiences, and make the most of your content in a fast-evolving media world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve Goldstein (00:00):
YouTube is the second largest television network, if
you want to view that as a network.
It's massive.
And that's where so much ofmedia is being consumed today.
So when we talk about tweaking forthe younger generation, if you are
not on other platforms, I don't thinkyou can win place or show in the game.
(00:22):
In other words, a big tower out in thefield is not going to get the show.
Job done,
VO (00:26):
BRANDwidth on Demand.
Rebooting radio with a differenttake on all radio can be.
Steve Goldstein (00:32):
I think radio has waited too long to deal with on demand
strategies in a significant way, andI wrote a piece recently highlighting
the aging of the linear media business.
But what I made clear was thatpodcasting is the new talk radio.
(00:54):
And I mean that with all sincerity, andI mean it a little bit with the shock
value too, that if you don't build outthe next generation, then you are sorry.
AM radio or your telephone booths.
You're just not as important.
VO (01:09):
Now your guides through the mediamorphosis, David Martin and
author of the book BRANDwidth,media branding coach Kipper McGee.
Dave Martin (01:19):
Hey kids, this time we're deep diving into the world of on demand
audio and podcasting multi platform audio.
That's right.
With over three decades of experience,our guest has been a pivotal figure
in transforming the audio landscape.
He's driven innovation and growthat major broadcasting companies,
including one where he was co-founderand Executive VP, Saga Communications.
(01:43):
And by the way, a station guy at alegendary station, WABC in New York.
His expertise in content creation anddigital strategy has guided brands
through the shift from traditionalbroadcasting to digital audio.
Leading a firm known for its strategicinsights and creative solutions, he's
a sought after speaker and thoughtleader shaping the future of audio.
(02:05):
BRANDwidth on Demand is proudto welcome the founder of
Amplifi Media, Steve Goldstein.
Kipper McGee (02:10):
Hey, Steve.
Steve Goldstein (02:11):
This is a lovely intro.
Thank you very much.
Now the pressure is on, I guess.
Well, I'm not so sure aboutthat, but I do know you will
have something to say on this.
With TV and print audiences aging, whatdo these demographic shifts mean for
the future of radio and podcasting doneby radio stations or personalities?
(02:35):
Well, so I think you have a combinationof things occurring at the same time.
You have the aging of linear media cablenews is at 70 and primetime TV, primetime
TV, which was sold as an 18 to 49 medium.
The average is now 65for linear primetime TV.
(02:55):
Newspaper, if still getting one, is 60.
Talk radio is at 58.
And that's a kind number becauseNielsen combines sports talk,
which is a lower demo, then newstalk, which is a higher demo.
So you can extrapolate out what that 58might be without the sports talk stations.
That is not a good looking number.
(03:16):
And then you have podcasts.
Podcasts are checking in 30 years younger.
34 is the median age.
Dave Martin (03:22):
Wow.
And how are the media habitsof that younger generation
changing the game, Steve?
What can radio broadcasters doto tweak their engagement and
content to attract these listeners?
Steve Goldstein (03:33):
Yeah, if only it were a tweak, Dave, I think it's, I think
it's way more systemic than a tweak.
And so, look, the generations, theyounger generations specifically
are using content differently.
You know, you don't have to be anuclear scientist to know that,
TikTok, Instagram, things like that aresignificant factors, but so is YouTube.
(03:55):
YouTube is the second largesttelevision network, if you
want View that as a network.
It's massive and that's where so muchof media is being consumed today.
So when we talk about tweaking forthe younger generation, if you are
not on other platforms, I don't thinkyou can win place or show in the game.
(04:16):
In other words, a big tower out in thefield is not going to get the job done.
And I do think about itthrough the same eyes of TV.
The local TV station is undertremendous pressure for the same
demographic reasons I just recited.
They are using streaming.
They are using YouTube.
(04:37):
All to reach the audience where they are.
And here's an example.
SNL in the middle of April, thehighest rated episode of the year
on SNL was with Ryan Gosling and itdid 8 million views in linear TV.
Meaning that 8 million people watchedit either on Saturday night or delayed
(04:57):
it and watched it at another time.
But 46 million people watchedclips of the show on YouTube.
170 million people.
Watched clips on Instagram,TikTok, or wherever.
So, what they've learned is thatthey must be multi platform.
(05:18):
And I think the same thing holds truefor broadcasters, radio broadcasters.
So I, I do not think it's a tweak.
Podcasting is a necessary tool.
Streaming is a necessary tool.
I think you need to get out fromunder the notion that people are just
going to listen to you on a radio.
Yeah, we're still seeing that it's downfrom 93 percent for a long time, but
(05:43):
now it's like 80 something percent ofpeople listen to radio once a week or so.
On that note, is there a way thatradio broadcasters can utilize those
strategies that make a difference?
Podcasting attractive to advertisersso they can compete with things like
you mentioned YouTube and TikTok.
(06:04):
Is there a way they can do that?
Yeah, I think so.
I really do.
I think radio has underplayed thepotential of time shifted audio.
When I started Amplifi, whichbelieve it or not, Kipper,
is nine and a half years ago.
Kipper McGee (06:17):
Wow.
Dave Martin (06:18):
Wow.
Steve Goldstein (06:18):
And a lot of weird eye rolls at the time.
What's this guy doing?
In the nine and a half years, Iwould say seven or eight of them, I
thought time shifted audio was likethe Rodney Dangerfield of podcasting.
Nobody wanted to touch it.
Today, I feel very differently about it.
I think it's a significant retentionstrategy that is totally underutilized
(06:40):
by radio, and I will give youa frightening example of this.
So we took a market, alarge market, top 20 market.
And we took the top seven morning shows.
Okay.
So this is not the, screwed upstations, the ones that are a mess.
This is the top in the market.
And we looked at listening patterns.
(07:03):
And what we saw was that justunder 60 percent were listening to
the morning show one day a week.
That's it one day a week.
And only.
18 percent more werelistening two days a week.
So only 18 percent two days a week.
(07:24):
That's frightening.
That's systemic.
That suggests that the business model isjust broken and the audience has already
said, Hey, I'm doing other things.
And so if they happen to like yourmorning show, shouldn't you think
about strategies to help them?
In offering that content on otherplatforms so that they can consume it
in other ways because they've alreadyvoted and said, Hey, you know what?
(07:46):
We're not around enough.
I mean, maybe they're notcommuting as often as they used to.
Maybe they have othershows that they like.
I don't know, but I do know thattaking a morning show and shoving
three hours of it into a podcast is areally bad idea and it's not working.
Kipper McGee (08:03):
So, shifting gears a little bit, what are the relative
pros and cons of using the TLR,total line reporting, compared to
those who separate the streamingsignal from the on air broadcast?
And do you need to be a certain sizeorganization to have it make sense,
or how do you see that whole world?
Steve Goldstein (08:23):
Yeah, I think that's very bespoke.
I think it's a really good question, too.
So, streaming is moving north.
There's a lot more streaming goingon, depending on the format, depending
on the size of the radio station.
It could be 12%, 15%.
It could be as high as 20 percent ofthe audience listening via streaming.
So, that's no longer alittle rounding error.
(08:43):
, that means those little Alexa speakersin everybody's home are radios.
And so that's pretty exciting.
So that's great.
So that would suggest that combining thosenumbers together for TLR would be good.
And the podcasting part of thatis, let's say they do listen to a
signature bit of the morning show andthey listen to it within 24 hours.
(09:06):
That's also accretive.
And so if you combine those things andI'm just making up this number, let's
say it's 20, 25 percent of the listening.
That's a big number.
I mean, all of a sudden pay attention.
There's a, there's an opportunity here.
So I don't think.
The TLR is a problem.
(09:28):
I think it's an asset in most markets,but I do think that there are many
scenarios in which people are makingmore money by separating out the
opportunity of selling the streamand the podcast than combining it.
So I do think, and I've workedwith broadcasters who in their same
(09:49):
organization will make that strategy abit more bespoke, depending on the size
of the market or the size of the station.
But I love the idea thatthey're thinking about it.
Dave Martin (09:59):
How do you see a AI changing the future of podcasting, broadcasting,
audio, and what ethical issues shouldcreators of both consider to balance
AI's benefits with maintaining genuinehuman connections with their audience?
Steve Goldstein (10:13):
Isn't to say, I think it'd be like NFTs and
it'll just be gone in a year.
Uh,
I'm afraid not.
I, I think this is a real thing.
So it depends what mediawe're talking about.
I am amazed at how goodthe audio is so fast.
I would not have guessed that therewould be such great intonation and
(10:35):
things of that nature in audio.
And yet it is.
It is here.
I do think that the audienceis really sharp and I do think
certainly on the podcast side, thatauthenticity makes a difference.
I think that broadcasters or any audiocreator will make a mistake thinking that.
(10:57):
They can use AI as the surrogate.
But I also think that it's a greattool for production and for, the
back office sort of stuff to improveworkflow and things like that.
So, in one place I worry aboutit a lot and the other, I
recommend it often, but it is.
Changing so fast.
(11:18):
If we had had this conversation sixmonths ago, I'm not sure we would
have found audio samples that soundas good as what we hear today.
So it is moving rapidly.
Kipper McGee (11:28):
Yeah, and it's kind of on a hockey stick trajectory.
It looks like.
Steve Goldstein (11:32):
Yeah, and the legal issues.
Dave, you asked about the legal issues.
That is such a Pandora's box.
There's so much going on there.
And I think we'll see more.
I read this morning that Drake fakesong that they were suing the record
companies and producers of it.
I mean, you're going tosee a lot of that, right?
It just makes sense that people aregearing up trying to figure out how
(11:53):
to protect their copyrighted material.
And you see it on the graphics.
You see it with pictures and watermarking.
I think we're going to seeaudio watermarking as well.
I've had the conversation with Dan Grangerand Stu Redvine over at Oxford Road and
they're an agency that does bespoke audio,about how to watermark original audio.
(12:17):
I think it's a conversation.
Dave Martin (12:18):
And intellectual property is going to be a very
important issue going forward.
It really is.
Steve Goldstein (12:25):
And I have a brother in law who is in that business
has been it's he's moving to acouple of record years, I think.
Dave Martin (12:34):
Oh, no doubt about it.
Kipper McGee (12:35):
Business is very good.
So looking forward, opening yourcrystal ball app on your phone.
What key factors do you think are goingto really be shaping the future of
podcasting in the next five, 10 years?
Steve Goldstein (12:50):
So I think when we're talking about podcasting,
we're talking about a medium thatis growing and changing rapidly.
Again, I started mybusiness nine years ago.
There was $250,000 ofrevenue in the business.
This year there'll be over 2 billion.
So it's still small, especially comparedto commercial radio, saying but it is
(13:12):
growing rapidly just as on demand video.
Has grown.
This is the way people will expectto find and listen to audio.
And when I think about it in termsof radio, and here we are doing this
radio oriented podcast, I draw yourattention to the top 50 podcasts.
(13:33):
On Apple podcasts or Spotify,it doesn't really matter, and
the diversity of topics.
Out of the top 50, onlyeight are political.
About four are true crime and sevenare comedy, business and technologies
in their sports, self improvement.
There are five titles on self improvement.
(13:54):
My point here is that diversity oftopics in podcasting is so great.
And it suggests a desire tolisten to things that go way
beyond conservative talk radio.
They want to be entertained.
They want to be informed.
And there's also a lotof new personalities.
And that's something we haven'tseen in the radio business in
(14:16):
forever is investment in new voices.
And it is happening in podcasting.
That is where the experimentation occurs.
And I can tell you for sure that themortality rate in podcasting is not good.
Most podcasts end up in therecycle chute, but if you make it.
And if you are making it, it isbecause you are, differentiated and
(14:41):
you're bringing fresh content ontopics that people are interested in.
There are topics like selfimprovement with Kuberman Labs that
does extraordinarily well and hassince the beginning of the pandemic.
And there's Alex Cooper, who's talkingabout, younger, more millennial,
And younger than that issues.
There's a great diversity of voicesand I think that's what's going
(15:04):
to drive podcasting in the future.
Dave Martin (15:06):
No doubt about it, Steve.
We can all learn somethingfrom Steve Goldstein, the
Amplify Media founder and CEO.
Hey, got a suggestionor a guest or a topic.
We're all ears.
Drop us an email at showat BRANDwidth on Demand.
com or reach out on socialBRANDwidthPLUS on Instagram.
(15:27):
Facebook and X.
BRANDwidth plus together we canmake this podcast even more epic.
Kipper McGee (15:33):
So if you're new to the podcast, awesome.
Just don't forget to smash the followbutton on your favorite podcast app.
And if you've been with us fora while, please spread the love,
tell friend BRANDwidth on Demand.
We're available whereverbetter podcasts are found.
And with over 200 episodes,we're here to help you master
(15:55):
the art of audio like a pro.
Dave Martin (15:57):
Coming up, Steve talks to us about what trends
and opportunities he sees in timeshifting your audio to on demand.
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Dave Martin (17:34):
We are here with the founder and CEO of Amplify
media, Steve Goldstein, Steve.
One question that manystations are still debating.
Are the merits of utilizing podcastingfor time shifting, to make the radio
station content available on demand.
What trends and opportunitiesare you seeing in this area?
Steve Goldstein (17:53):
So let's go back to something we talked about earlier.
I think the TV model is a reallygood one for radio broadcasters.
I think bite sized content is the win.
It's not the long form.
No one listened to your radioshow for three and a half hours.
They're not going to listen to yourpodcast for three and a half hours,
but they might listen to four oreight minutes that were really great.
(18:16):
And, sad to say, but you guys know you'vebeen around doing this for a long time.
There's.
three levels of content.
There's A level B level and C level.
And most content is in that C and B level.
And the great moments are A level.
And those are the moments that you shouldbe making available to listeners again,
for retention, but also for growth.
(18:37):
These are two very different strategiesand we do work with radio clients on this.
I think that there needs to be waymore rigor and focus and thought placed
into it as opposed to, yeah, we madea clip out of the thing and we made
it into an MP3 and we published it.
I don't think it's as easy as that.
Kipper McGee (18:57):
And one thing, it just seems to me looking at it, A news
talk radio station, one of the thingsyou would think that people are
coming to them for is information.
Yet, many of them do top of thehour and that's it, and then
the rest is network and spots.
Wouldn't it make sense for more newstalk or even sports stations to do a
(19:21):
recap of that as a podcast and keep itthere till the next one was recorded?
Steve Goldstein (19:27):
Well, you you see that in public radio the NPR hourly news
is their top podcast You see that atthe BBC BBC is the hourly newscast.
So what does that tell you?
It tells you that it's vital product,but not everybody's going to listen
to it at the top of the hour.
That's just old school thinking.
(19:49):
They may get to it at 25 minutesafter the hour or when and
when they get into the car.
That's what on demand is all about.
And I don't think.
I don't think Linear can win anylonger, even though they may do a great
sportscast at a quarter after the hour.
It doesn't mean people arejumping in to their car at a
(20:09):
quarter after to listen to it.
Dave Martin (20:11):
No, Linear's the world of live sports now.
That's about it.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
That's a fantastic, but not at all, butit is not the only way to reach people.
Very good.
I think any final word, anyfinal words of wisdom, Mr.
Goldstein, I think radio has waitedtoo long to deal with on demand
(20:35):
strategies in a significant way.
And I wrote a piece recently highlightingthe aging of the linear media business.
But what I made clear was thatpodcasting is the new talk radio.
And I mean that with all sincerity, andI mean it a little bit with the shock
(20:57):
value too, that if you don't build outthe next generation, then you are sorry.
AM radio or your telephone booths.
You're just not as important.
Our thanks to the alwaysinsightful Steve Goldstein.
Links to his blog, his website,and more all in the show notes.
Just scroll down on your phone.
Kipper McGee (21:17):
As always, our thanks to exec producer Cindy Huber
for putting this all together.
And coming up next.
Thee Kelly Ford! (21:25):
Hey there, it's Thee Kelly Ford, host of Backstage Country
on In 80 Cities, around this greatcountry of ours, and afternoon hoston
1 0 3.1, the Wolf in Long Island.
Would you like to learn how to loseweight, how to have better sex, and how
to earn $10,000 in less than three months?
(21:46):
None of that I can tell you, but we willhave fun with Kipper and Dave coming up
next episode of BRANDwidth On Demand.
Dave Martin (21:55):
That's a wrap, Kipper.
Want to get better?
Well, you need to seek out criticism.
Start asking people, Hey,what am I doing wrong?
We'll talk about that in thenext One Minute Martinize.
You'll find it in the shownotes at brandwithondemand.
dot com.
I'm Dave Martin.
And I'm Kipper McGee.
Stay creative and letyour BRANDwidth shine.
YouTube is the second largest television network, if
you want to view that as a network.
It's massive.
And that's where so much ofmedia is being consumed today.
So when we talk about tweaking forthe younger generation, if you are
not on other platforms, I don't thinkyou can win place or show in the game.
(00:22):
In other words, a big tower out in thefield is not going to get the show.
Job done,
VO (00:26):
BRANDwidth on Demand.
Rebooting radio with a differenttake on all radio can be.
Steve Goldstein (00:32):
I think radio has waited too long to deal with on demand
strategies in a significant way, andI wrote a piece recently highlighting
the aging of the linear media business.
But what I made clear was thatpodcasting is the new talk radio.
(00:54):
And I mean that with all sincerity, andI mean it a little bit with the shock
value too, that if you don't build outthe next generation, then you are sorry.
AM radio or your telephone booths.
You're just not as important.
VO (01:09):
Now your guides through the mediamorphosis, David Martin and
author of the book BRANDwidth,media branding coach Kipper McGee.
Dave Martin (01:19):
Hey kids, this time we're deep diving into the world of on demand
audio and podcasting multi platform audio.
That's right.
With over three decades of experience,our guest has been a pivotal figure
in transforming the audio landscape.
He's driven innovation and growthat major broadcasting companies,
including one where he was co-founderand Executive VP, Saga Communications.
(01:43):
And by the way, a station guy at alegendary station, WABC in New York.
His expertise in content creation anddigital strategy has guided brands
through the shift from traditionalbroadcasting to digital audio.
Leading a firm known for its strategicinsights and creative solutions, he's
a sought after speaker and thoughtleader shaping the future of audio.
(02:05):
BRANDwidth on Demand is proudto welcome the founder of
Amplifi Media, Steve Goldstein.
Kipper McGee (02:10):
Hey, Steve.
Steve Goldstein (02:11):
This is a lovely intro.
Thank you very much.
Now the pressure is on, I guess.
Well, I'm not so sure aboutthat, but I do know you will
have something to say on this.
With TV and print audiences aging, whatdo these demographic shifts mean for
the future of radio and podcasting doneby radio stations or personalities?
(02:35):
Well, so I think you have a combinationof things occurring at the same time.
You have the aging of linear media cablenews is at 70 and primetime TV, primetime
TV, which was sold as an 18 to 49 medium.
The average is now 65for linear primetime TV.
(02:55):
Newspaper, if still getting one, is 60.
Talk radio is at 58.
And that's a kind number becauseNielsen combines sports talk,
which is a lower demo, then newstalk, which is a higher demo.
So you can extrapolate out what that 58might be without the sports talk stations.
That is not a good looking number.
(03:16):
And then you have podcasts.
Podcasts are checking in 30 years younger.
34 is the median age.
Dave Martin (03:22):
Wow.
And how are the media habitsof that younger generation
changing the game, Steve?
What can radio broadcasters doto tweak their engagement and
content to attract these listeners?
Steve Goldstein (03:33):
Yeah, if only it were a tweak, Dave, I think it's, I think
it's way more systemic than a tweak.
And so, look, the generations, theyounger generations specifically
are using content differently.
You know, you don't have to be anuclear scientist to know that,
TikTok, Instagram, things like that aresignificant factors, but so is YouTube.
(03:55):
YouTube is the second largesttelevision network, if you
want View that as a network.
It's massive and that's where so muchof media is being consumed today.
So when we talk about tweaking forthe younger generation, if you are
not on other platforms, I don't thinkyou can win place or show in the game.
(04:16):
In other words, a big tower out in thefield is not going to get the job done.
And I do think about itthrough the same eyes of TV.
The local TV station is undertremendous pressure for the same
demographic reasons I just recited.
They are using streaming.
They are using YouTube.
(04:37):
All to reach the audience where they are.
And here's an example.
SNL in the middle of April, thehighest rated episode of the year
on SNL was with Ryan Gosling and itdid 8 million views in linear TV.
Meaning that 8 million people watchedit either on Saturday night or delayed
(04:57):
it and watched it at another time.
But 46 million people watchedclips of the show on YouTube.
170 million people.
Watched clips on Instagram,TikTok, or wherever.
So, what they've learned is thatthey must be multi platform.
(05:18):
And I think the same thing holds truefor broadcasters, radio broadcasters.
So I, I do not think it's a tweak.
Podcasting is a necessary tool.
Streaming is a necessary tool.
I think you need to get out fromunder the notion that people are just
going to listen to you on a radio.
Yeah, we're still seeing that it's downfrom 93 percent for a long time, but
(05:43):
now it's like 80 something percent ofpeople listen to radio once a week or so.
On that note, is there a way thatradio broadcasters can utilize those
strategies that make a difference?
Podcasting attractive to advertisersso they can compete with things like
you mentioned YouTube and TikTok.
(06:04):
Is there a way they can do that?
Yeah, I think so.
I really do.
I think radio has underplayed thepotential of time shifted audio.
When I started Amplifi, whichbelieve it or not, Kipper,
is nine and a half years ago.
Kipper McGee (06:17):
Wow.
Dave Martin (06:18):
Wow.
Steve Goldstein (06:18):
And a lot of weird eye rolls at the time.
What's this guy doing?
In the nine and a half years, Iwould say seven or eight of them, I
thought time shifted audio was likethe Rodney Dangerfield of podcasting.
Nobody wanted to touch it.
Today, I feel very differently about it.
I think it's a significant retentionstrategy that is totally underutilized
(06:40):
by radio, and I will give youa frightening example of this.
So we took a market, alarge market, top 20 market.
And we took the top seven morning shows.
Okay.
So this is not the, screwed upstations, the ones that are a mess.
This is the top in the market.
And we looked at listening patterns.
(07:03):
And what we saw was that justunder 60 percent were listening to
the morning show one day a week.
That's it one day a week.
And only.
18 percent more werelistening two days a week.
So only 18 percent two days a week.
(07:24):
That's frightening.
That's systemic.
That suggests that the business model isjust broken and the audience has already
said, Hey, I'm doing other things.
And so if they happen to like yourmorning show, shouldn't you think
about strategies to help them?
In offering that content on otherplatforms so that they can consume it
in other ways because they've alreadyvoted and said, Hey, you know what?
(07:46):
We're not around enough.
I mean, maybe they're notcommuting as often as they used to.
Maybe they have othershows that they like.
I don't know, but I do know thattaking a morning show and shoving
three hours of it into a podcast is areally bad idea and it's not working.
Kipper McGee (08:03):
So, shifting gears a little bit, what are the relative
pros and cons of using the TLR,total line reporting, compared to
those who separate the streamingsignal from the on air broadcast?
And do you need to be a certain sizeorganization to have it make sense,
or how do you see that whole world?
Steve Goldstein (08:23):
Yeah, I think that's very bespoke.
I think it's a really good question, too.
So, streaming is moving north.
There's a lot more streaming goingon, depending on the format, depending
on the size of the radio station.
It could be 12%, 15%.
It could be as high as 20 percent ofthe audience listening via streaming.
So, that's no longer alittle rounding error.
(08:43):
, that means those little Alexa speakersin everybody's home are radios.
And so that's pretty exciting.
So that's great.
So that would suggest that combining thosenumbers together for TLR would be good.
And the podcasting part of thatis, let's say they do listen to a
signature bit of the morning show andthey listen to it within 24 hours.
(09:06):
That's also accretive.
And so if you combine those things andI'm just making up this number, let's
say it's 20, 25 percent of the listening.
That's a big number.
I mean, all of a sudden pay attention.
There's a, there's an opportunity here.
So I don't think.
The TLR is a problem.
(09:28):
I think it's an asset in most markets,but I do think that there are many
scenarios in which people are makingmore money by separating out the
opportunity of selling the streamand the podcast than combining it.
So I do think, and I've workedwith broadcasters who in their same
(09:49):
organization will make that strategy abit more bespoke, depending on the size
of the market or the size of the station.
But I love the idea thatthey're thinking about it.
Dave Martin (09:59):
How do you see a AI changing the future of podcasting, broadcasting,
audio, and what ethical issues shouldcreators of both consider to balance
AI's benefits with maintaining genuinehuman connections with their audience?
Steve Goldstein (10:13):
Isn't to say, I think it'd be like NFTs and
it'll just be gone in a year.
Uh,
I'm afraid not.
I, I think this is a real thing.
So it depends what mediawe're talking about.
I am amazed at how goodthe audio is so fast.
I would not have guessed that therewould be such great intonation and
(10:35):
things of that nature in audio.
And yet it is.
It is here.
I do think that the audienceis really sharp and I do think
certainly on the podcast side, thatauthenticity makes a difference.
I think that broadcasters or any audiocreator will make a mistake thinking that.
(10:57):
They can use AI as the surrogate.
But I also think that it's a greattool for production and for, the
back office sort of stuff to improveworkflow and things like that.
So, in one place I worry aboutit a lot and the other, I
recommend it often, but it is.
Changing so fast.
(11:18):
If we had had this conversation sixmonths ago, I'm not sure we would
have found audio samples that soundas good as what we hear today.
So it is moving rapidly.
Kipper McGee (11:28):
Yeah, and it's kind of on a hockey stick trajectory.
It looks like.
Steve Goldstein (11:32):
Yeah, and the legal issues.
Dave, you asked about the legal issues.
That is such a Pandora's box.
There's so much going on there.
And I think we'll see more.
I read this morning that Drake fakesong that they were suing the record
companies and producers of it.
I mean, you're going tosee a lot of that, right?
It just makes sense that people aregearing up trying to figure out how
(11:53):
to protect their copyrighted material.
And you see it on the graphics.
You see it with pictures and watermarking.
I think we're going to seeaudio watermarking as well.
I've had the conversation with Dan Grangerand Stu Redvine over at Oxford Road and
they're an agency that does bespoke audio,about how to watermark original audio.
(12:17):
I think it's a conversation.
Dave Martin (12:18):
And intellectual property is going to be a very
important issue going forward.
It really is.
Steve Goldstein (12:25):
And I have a brother in law who is in that business
has been it's he's moving to acouple of record years, I think.
Dave Martin (12:34):
Oh, no doubt about it.
Kipper McGee (12:35):
Business is very good.
So looking forward, opening yourcrystal ball app on your phone.
What key factors do you think are goingto really be shaping the future of
podcasting in the next five, 10 years?
Steve Goldstein (12:50):
So I think when we're talking about podcasting,
we're talking about a medium thatis growing and changing rapidly.
Again, I started mybusiness nine years ago.
There was $250,000 ofrevenue in the business.
This year there'll be over 2 billion.
So it's still small, especially comparedto commercial radio, saying but it is
(13:12):
growing rapidly just as on demand video.
Has grown.
This is the way people will expectto find and listen to audio.
And when I think about it in termsof radio, and here we are doing this
radio oriented podcast, I draw yourattention to the top 50 podcasts.
(13:33):
On Apple podcasts or Spotify,it doesn't really matter, and
the diversity of topics.
Out of the top 50, onlyeight are political.
About four are true crime and sevenare comedy, business and technologies
in their sports, self improvement.
There are five titles on self improvement.
(13:54):
My point here is that diversity oftopics in podcasting is so great.
And it suggests a desire tolisten to things that go way
beyond conservative talk radio.
They want to be entertained.
They want to be informed.
And there's also a lotof new personalities.
And that's something we haven'tseen in the radio business in
(14:16):
forever is investment in new voices.
And it is happening in podcasting.
That is where the experimentation occurs.
And I can tell you for sure that themortality rate in podcasting is not good.
Most podcasts end up in therecycle chute, but if you make it.
And if you are making it, it isbecause you are, differentiated and
(14:41):
you're bringing fresh content ontopics that people are interested in.
There are topics like selfimprovement with Kuberman Labs that
does extraordinarily well and hassince the beginning of the pandemic.
And there's Alex Cooper, who's talkingabout, younger, more millennial,
And younger than that issues.
There's a great diversity of voicesand I think that's what's going
(15:04):
to drive podcasting in the future.
Dave Martin (15:06):
No doubt about it, Steve.
We can all learn somethingfrom Steve Goldstein, the
Amplify Media founder and CEO.
Hey, got a suggestionor a guest or a topic.
We're all ears.
Drop us an email at showat BRANDwidth on Demand.
com or reach out on socialBRANDwidthPLUS on Instagram.
(15:27):
Facebook and X.
BRANDwidth plus together we canmake this podcast even more epic.
Kipper McGee (15:33):
So if you're new to the podcast, awesome.
Just don't forget to smash the followbutton on your favorite podcast app.
And if you've been with us fora while, please spread the love,
tell friend BRANDwidth on Demand.
We're available whereverbetter podcasts are found.
And with over 200 episodes,we're here to help you master
(15:55):
the art of audio like a pro.
Dave Martin (15:57):
Coming up, Steve talks to us about what trends
and opportunities he sees in timeshifting your audio to on demand.
Sponsor (16:09):
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Dave Martin (17:34):
We are here with the founder and CEO of Amplify
media, Steve Goldstein, Steve.
One question that manystations are still debating.
Are the merits of utilizing podcastingfor time shifting, to make the radio
station content available on demand.
What trends and opportunitiesare you seeing in this area?
Steve Goldstein (17:53):
So let's go back to something we talked about earlier.
I think the TV model is a reallygood one for radio broadcasters.
I think bite sized content is the win.
It's not the long form.
No one listened to your radioshow for three and a half hours.
They're not going to listen to yourpodcast for three and a half hours,
but they might listen to four oreight minutes that were really great.
(18:16):
And, sad to say, but you guys know you'vebeen around doing this for a long time.
There's.
three levels of content.
There's A level B level and C level.
And most content is in that C and B level.
And the great moments are A level.
And those are the moments that you shouldbe making available to listeners again,
for retention, but also for growth.
(18:37):
These are two very different strategiesand we do work with radio clients on this.
I think that there needs to be waymore rigor and focus and thought placed
into it as opposed to, yeah, we madea clip out of the thing and we made
it into an MP3 and we published it.
I don't think it's as easy as that.
Kipper McGee (18:57):
And one thing, it just seems to me looking at it, A news
talk radio station, one of the thingsyou would think that people are
coming to them for is information.
Yet, many of them do top of thehour and that's it, and then
the rest is network and spots.
Wouldn't it make sense for more newstalk or even sports stations to do a
(19:21):
recap of that as a podcast and keep itthere till the next one was recorded?
Steve Goldstein (19:27):
Well, you you see that in public radio the NPR hourly news
is their top podcast You see that atthe BBC BBC is the hourly newscast.
So what does that tell you?
It tells you that it's vital product,but not everybody's going to listen
to it at the top of the hour.
That's just old school thinking.
(19:49):
They may get to it at 25 minutesafter the hour or when and
when they get into the car.
That's what on demand is all about.
And I don't think.
I don't think Linear can win anylonger, even though they may do a great
sportscast at a quarter after the hour.
It doesn't mean people arejumping in to their car at a
(20:09):
quarter after to listen to it.
Dave Martin (20:11):
No, Linear's the world of live sports now.
That's about it.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
That's a fantastic, but not at all, butit is not the only way to reach people.
Very good.
I think any final word, anyfinal words of wisdom, Mr.
Goldstein, I think radio has waitedtoo long to deal with on demand
(20:35):
strategies in a significant way.
And I wrote a piece recently highlightingthe aging of the linear media business.
But what I made clear was thatpodcasting is the new talk radio.
And I mean that with all sincerity, andI mean it a little bit with the shock
(20:57):
value too, that if you don't build outthe next generation, then you are sorry.
AM radio or your telephone booths.
You're just not as important.
Our thanks to the alwaysinsightful Steve Goldstein.
Links to his blog, his website,and more all in the show notes.
Just scroll down on your phone.
Kipper McGee (21:17):
As always, our thanks to exec producer Cindy Huber
for putting this all together.
And coming up next.
Thee Kelly Ford! (21:25):
Hey there, it's Thee Kelly Ford, host of Backstage Country
on In 80 Cities, around this greatcountry of ours, and afternoon hoston
1 0 3.1, the Wolf in Long Island.
Would you like to learn how to loseweight, how to have better sex, and how
to earn $10,000 in less than three months?
(21:46):
None of that I can tell you, but we willhave fun with Kipper and Dave coming up
next episode of BRANDwidth On Demand.
Dave Martin (21:55):
That's a wrap, Kipper.
Want to get better?
Well, you need to seek out criticism.
Start asking people, Hey,what am I doing wrong?
We'll talk about that in thenext One Minute Martinize.
You'll find it in the shownotes at brandwithondemand.
dot com.
I'm Dave Martin.
And I'm Kipper McGee.
Stay creative and letyour BRANDwidth shine.
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