June 13, 2024 • 24 mins
In honor of LGBTQ+ Pride Month, Brandwidth on Demand features Brad Fuhr, owner of KGAY Radio in Palm Springs, and Chris Schebel, KGAY's Program Director. KGAY Radio in Palm Springs, known for pride and inclusivity, integrates radio with digital content through the Gay Desert Guide. Brad and Chris share insights on creating a vibrant community hub, innovative audience engagement, and successful sales strategies. They discuss the evolution of KGAY, its national reach, and plans for future expansion while offering solid tips for making ANY niche format more successful. Their passion and commitment to the LGBTQ+ community underscore the station's unique and impactful presence in the radio landscape.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris (00:00):
KGAY is a lifestyle, but it doesn't matter if you're 18 or 80.
KGAY is the gay radio station, andit's playing, hopefully, the music
that you like, a lot of the musicthat you remember, and then, from that
basic thing, then comes the magic.
VO (00:16):
Welcome to BRANDwidth On Demand, your guide to rebooting radio.
Brad (00:21):
The businesses that we do partner with they are getting great
success from the radio station.
That's it.
I mean, the thing is the advertisersdo get results from the station
and people are all the timegoing into our advertisers and
saying, I heard this on KGAY.
VO2 (00:36):
BRANDwidth On Demand, rebooting radio with a different take on
all radio can be now your guidesthrough the media morphosis.
David Martin.
And author of the book, BRANDwidth,media branding coach, Kipper McGee.
Dave (00:53):
Today, in a special celebration of LGBTQ plus pride month,
BRANDwidth On Demand is honoredto feature two key figures behind
a station whose name says it all.
KGAY.
K G A Y.
a station who embodiespride and inclusivity.
Brad Fuhr, the visionary owner of KGAY,began his illustrious career at just 15.
(01:19):
Significant roles at variousradio stations and broadcast
companies led to MS Interactive.
Brad has consistentlychampioned LGBTQ plus media.
In 2013, he founded BRANDwidthOn Demand, further integrating
and uplifting community voices.
Chris Shebel, KGAY's ProgramDirector, brings extensive
(01:41):
experience from top markets includingChicago, Phoenix, and Portland.
He pioneered dance hits format nationwide.
Together, they're transforming KGAYinto a vibrant, inclusive community hub
for the Coachella Valley and beyond.
From KGAY Radio in Palm Springs,BRANDwidth On Demand proudly
welcomes Brad Fuhr and Chris Shebel.
Kipper (02:06):
So I got to ask, and I think I'll throw this to Brad first, but Chris, chime
in what inspired you guys to integrateradio with digital content through the
BRANDwidth On Demand and how has thisimpacted your audience engagement?
Brad (02:23):
Well, I'll take that question first because I had BRANDwidth
On Demand for a number of years.
I was a little sidelined from radio.
I was teaching radio out hereat College of the Desert, but I
was not doing anything activelyin radio and I was missing it.
And I got wind of a new nonprofit startingup in the community where they were going
(02:43):
to take a commercial radio frequencyand start a Nonprofit organization
with an LGBTQ plus radio station.
Unfortunately this coincided almostexactly with when odyssey launched
channel Q, which was their LGBTQ offering.
They, I believe that the airwavesjust prior to when KGAY launched.
(03:05):
Is that correct?
About three weeks, three weeks or so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And uh, I started getting allof the great people that I know
together and Chris Shebel was hereand I think you were here in Palm
Springs at that time, were you not?
I was.
Yeah.
So we got you involved in theboard and we started architecting
the programming for KGAY.
(03:27):
And the nonprofit piece of it.
Unfortunately, did not survive.
And after about a year of running this asa kind of a hybrid for profit nonprofit
with Chris at the helm and programming,and I was managing the station the owners
that were funding this decided theywanted to go into a different direction.
And so at that point, after a year of.
(03:49):
and really a great integration betweenBRANDwidth On Demand and KGAY Radio.
They decided that they would take it adifferent direction, and Chris and I and
the whole team basically left the station.
But in that time, we had a chanceto experiment with this integration
of radio and Gay Desert Guide froma sales standpoint, and of course
(04:09):
we know that radio is a great driverof website traffic, so it was a no
brainer to have KGAY radio drivingtraffic over to Gay Desert Guide.
What we did in a sales effort was tryto package everything together so that
an advertiser who was already on GayDesert Guide could add a certain number
of spots per week in packages andintegrate those two things together.
(04:34):
And it worked.
I thought fairly well.
I don't think they thoughtit was moving fast enough.
That's when they pulled the plug.
We sat out COVID, which endedup being a blessing in disguise
that we had these two years off.
And then I came back and purchasedthe station from one of the two
owners who was very friendly to us.
And that's when we were able to kindof reenvision this and and get it
(04:58):
to where we really wanted it to be.
Chris, I'll let you take it from there.
Chris (05:02):
Uh, you know, anytime that you launch a radio format, you, the
old rule used to be one year in abook market, and then we got PPM.
It's like, Oh, now youcan tell in six months.
No, now you can tell in five weeks.
But it's not true.
It, it takes a long time to build a brand.
Uh, the idea of a gay radio station was.
Pretty revolutionary, when we were like,okay, we're going to do KGAY when KGAY
(05:24):
went on the air, you'd walk around town.
If you go, have you heard this?
You, what are they doing on the radio?
I think it brought people backinto radio as a destination.
And then the combination with BRANDwidthOn Demand, of course, because that
was already an established brand.
It gave us the opportunityto just take both of those
platforms and make them grow.
But like Brad was saying,the growth didn't happen the
(05:45):
way they wanted or whatever.
And, so we were just like,okay, I'm old, I'm semi retired.
I don't know.
I'll be happy to justlike lay by the pool.
And so we set it out for a little bit.
And.
The good news is one of the ownersbecame a very good friend and even
when I left, he's like, I wish youhadn't left, you know, he's very
(06:06):
nice and one of his dreams was thathe wanted to sell the radio station.
That's why they started the nonprofit.
He wanted to turn the radio station intoa gay radio station and run by members of
the gay community because he really felt.
It may be part of a legacy thing.
I don't know.
But he felt that, in thisparticular community that
would be the right thing to do.
(06:27):
And so here we are.
Brad (06:28):
And his name is Greg Smith.
He would not mind us, ofcourse, using his name.
And he sold me the radio station ata very, I thought, a very fair price.
He did.
AM station with an FM translatorand the translator at a, what, 175
Watts is probably the most successfultranslator in the United States
in terms of ratings and revenue.
Chris (06:49):
We're very fortunate.
Palm Springs is very, very unique.
It's extremely over radioed alsobecause of this, but we're in this
valley surrounded by mountains.
And so the LA signals, the SanDiego signals, all of the big ones.
I can't get over the mountains.
So we basically have a full spectrum here.
But because we're also enclosed andwe don't have tall buildings, I think
our tallest building is what fourstories now, or is it four stories?
Brad (07:11):
Yeah.
Chris (07:12):
We don't have multi path, so a translator it, it worked.
We weren't sure, frankly, what wasgoing to happen, but when we saw the
first ratings, when we subscribed,it's like, We're doing this with
a hundred seventy five watts
and now we have another signal too.
So we're even in a better situation now.
Dave (07:35):
Well, can you guys share your vision for the future of KGAY
and its role in the LGBTQ pluscommunity in Palm Springs and beyond?
I mean, how might that differfrom a mass market station?
What elements are the same?
Which ones are different?
Chris (07:49):
I think from the radio standpoint, a lot of the elements are the same.
We're primarily a music radio station.
Our format is hard for some people tofigure out because we play disco to death.
We're talking 50, 60 years worth ofmusic now that we integrate every hour.
Because the radio station is notdesigned, you know, most of my programming
(08:10):
experience has been, all right, wewant to go to get a 25, 54 women.
Okay.
What do you really want?
And then they break it down fromthere and you get narrower and
narrower to try and own a cell.
KGAY is just the opposite.
KGAY is a lifestyle, and it doesn'tmatter if you're 18 or 80, KGAY is the
gay radio station and it's playing...
hopefully the music that you like alot of the music that you remember.
(08:33):
And then , from that basic thing,this is what the structure is, then
comes the magic and that's the,I believe the, the people in the
the commitment to the community.
Our morning show.
If I was going to be doingit in LA, I probably would
do a lot of different things.
than, Hey, we're going to talkto so and so today about, the
(08:55):
theater production" or whatever.
But here we do that here.
KGAY is a local radio stationgeared to the gay community, but.
Not even just the gay community anymore.
Especially since we put on the secondsignal, things on Facebook and stuff
like, so from women in particular,in the area that we never conserved,
like I found this great radio stationand they don't care that it's gay.
Brad (09:19):
Yeah they kind of like to get in on what we're doing.
They're listening inright on the party line.
You know, And, your questionabout, a national brand or what
else would we do with this?
I would love to have a second, literallystreaming only channel of KGAY that
we could send across the world.
Now we do have peoplelistening all over the world.
We've opened up our streaming.
(09:39):
I have extremely high costs for streaming.
But that is, actually underwritten bythe Bureau of Tourism, which is fantastic.
But, I think if we had our druthers,we would have a second brand that
could be more music focused and more,probably more limited in our commercials.
And something that could stillbe a brand extension of, I think,
Chris (09:59):
uh, yeah.
KGAY is it's importantto keep in mind that.
KGAY really is now like a national brand.
You go anywhere there'sgay people in the U.
S., people know about KGAY.
We have people who listen every day.
They stream more than listento any of their local radio.
And that's because it'sfor their community.
(10:21):
And when you go from, Being likethe editorial people, the content
people, we do see now that part ofour job is to talk to the, to people.
We reach people that, live in thesestates where, they're starting to
feel afraid to leave their house.
And we are a lifeline.
And so part of our duty is, and it's, someconsulting guys go, Oh, that's bad radio.
(10:44):
They're talking for a minute we talkfor a minute because it's part of our
job is not just to play songs, but totell the people listening what's going
on in this world, because we may be theonly place that's going to tell them
what's happening for our community.
Right.
So, Chris, you have worked alot of formats, a lot of markets
tru dat!.
Kipper (11:05):
And you talked a little bit about, how that fits in with the community.
Can you walk us throughjust a basic formatic hour?
Or is there no such thing?
Well, I'm sure there is, \ cause Ischeduled the music, you know, we,
but I, every hour is a balanced outan hour of all the different genres.
(11:26):
And it's also based on alittle bit on how we live.
Like you'll hear more of the discoclassics, for example, or earlier in the
day than you will at 10 o'clock at night,cause we know that the audience for that,
like most people, my age are in bed.
But we also from day one wanted KGAYto always reflect current stuff too.
We play current songs and now that we'rea Mediabase reporter, everybody wants
(11:49):
to get their songs on, but you know,we can't do them all, not every week,
but so the music is all structured out.
And it's, you know, everything isbalanced based on era and the usual stuff.
What kind of, is it a pop song?
Is it an alt song?
You know, cause even in dance there arethose, those subcategories and then we've
got Harry Legg does our imaging and, Harryhas got the perfect sound for this format.
(12:13):
And when we can write some moreedgy ones, Harry can even make
them sound edgier, which we like.
And then we have a staff of mixersthat do a retro show every day at
noon, which does real well for us.
John Taylor, who does mornings isthe Gayborhood is what we call it.
Call it his Gayborhood, because I sayhe's the mayor of arenas, which is the
(12:34):
big street here where all the bars areand stuff, because everybody knows John
and, uh, we we don't tell him to shut up.
We tell him to when you talk to people,get to the main points and keep it
entertaining and that's his job.
And so basically it's a radiostation, but it's a radio station
designed for a specific group ofpeople, welcoming people from outside
(12:57):
of the group, but we're never.
Not going to be who we primarily are.
Dave (13:02):
You folks have certainly embraced and part of your magic
here is embracing your community.
Like the arts community hasto love you guys, right?
I mean, uh, that's got tobe an amazing relationship.
There has the community embraced you back.
Are you being financiallysupported by the community?
Brad (13:19):
Oh, yes.
I mean, I can speak to that the revenuehas literally doubled year over year.
The last couple of years, we came out ofcovid and, had some, then we basically
doubled that first year that we owned it.
We took it over in August and2022 was a pretty good year.
And then 2023, we doubled from there andwe're really on track to, to do well.
(13:42):
Not only the LGBTQ ownedbusinesses are supporting us,
but, there's many that are allies.
There are some businesses thatI would not take money from.
I know that there are some businessesthat are not supportive of us.
We try not to look at it in black andwhite political terms, but there are
some businesses that just, we wouldn'twant to take their money because we don't
(14:03):
believe they would be supportive of us.
It would be more of a, they'reopportunistic and we don't want that.
So the businesses that we dopartner with they are getting great
success from the radio station.
That's it.
I mean, the thing is the advertisersdo get results from the station
and people are all the timegoing into our advertisers and
saying, I heard this on KGAY.
(14:23):
, we've got a couple of salespeoplethat write incredible copy.
Paul Saliano, who hasbeen in radio for years.
He made the jump from programming tosales, and he has done just a fantastic
job in making sure that the spots areas engaging as the programming is.
Chris (14:39):
I think part of the challenge with when you do, especially when you
launch a radio station is, uh, where arethe revenue streams going to come from?
And I think we were very fortunatebecause Brad was already here, and
he's been doing non traditional mediafor, with Gay Desert Guide a few years.
So when we put it on we didn't have togo in and go, hi, we're this brand new
radio station that you know nothing aboutand nothing about the people behind us.
(14:59):
And we hope you like us.
We already had.
People that knew the product ofGay Desert Guide so then it came
teaching them the value of radio and.
An active audience.
It's so much easier.
Well, you guys know, I rememberback in the old days of top 40, when
everybody would listen to the radioand you would go and go, you'd do a
bit and a hundred people would showup and the advertiser, even if they
(15:23):
didn't, if they were like only lookingat ratings, might go like, Oh, geez.
I may have to rethink that.
And we got away from that in radio ingeneral, because we don't have people
to go out there and do that anymore.
And, we also philosophically, somethink that none of that matters,
but we still think it does.
And it certainly helps our sales effort,
Kipper (15:41):
So speaking of sales, can you share with us without having to kill
us, uh, any recent initiatives orpartnerships or anything that really
contributed to KGAY's growth and success?
Brad (15:53):
Well, I, mentioned briefly the fact that Visit Palm Springs has been a great
supporter of ours and even to the pointwhere they funded the streaming costs
because the those costs for streamingare just incredible when you're doing,
well north of a million streams per
per month you have to paythousands and thousands of dollars.
So that's been helpful.
(16:14):
We work with Palm SpringsInternational Airport.
We're doing a big promotion with oneof the LGBT travel companies right
now with the Chris's, song of the daycontest, which is a tried and true
radio winner, and we tied that back tothe airport providing airfare and this
great cruise in Europe this summer.
The response to those kindsof things has been very good.
(16:37):
We've got a great sales teamand you know, I package sell.
We make this very simple.
There are three packagesthat an advertiser can buy.
It's a kind of a saturation package,a medium package of about 25 spots
per week, and then a branding plan,which is like three spots a day, one
prime, one evening, one overnight.
And you know, the, the.
(16:57):
It's easy for an advertiserto understand that.
I think we've made radio way toocomplicated to buy, and I really
discovered this when we first put KGAY onthe air, but now that formula works very
well, tried and true, an agency is goingto buy differently, slightly differently.
We don't get a lot of agencybusiness, but in this case, an
advertiser gets it and they get.
(17:19):
Results from it
Chris (17:19):
and it doesn't hurt that many of them.
Love the radio station person.
Dave (17:23):
We're with the KGAY guys, Brad Fuhr and Chris Shebel.
Is there a guest or topicyou'd love for us to feature?
Well, let us know.
Email your suggestions toshow@brandwithondemand.com or
connect with us on social Brad withPlus on Instagram, Facebook, and X.
That's brand with plus PLUS brand with.
(17:44):
Plus,
Kipper (17:45):
and if you're enjoying this or even learning stuff from it,
we invite you to spread the word.
So others can too, just tell themto follow BRANDwidth On Demand
wherever you're getting this
Dave (17:57):
Coming up, we asked Brad Fuhr, and Chris Shiebel for their
tips on creating niche programming,including some things they've learned.
Spot (18:08):
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(18:29):
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(18:59):
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(19:20):
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Dave (19:21):
Guys, what advice would you give to other radio managers and owners
looking to create a successful nichestation that serves a really specific
community like you've done so well?
Brad (19:38):
Well, , Chris and I are both looking at each other on that one.
Dave (19:42):
You guys made a rather bold move here.
, you have to admit, mean, take,take credit for this bold move.
I mean, it really is.
Chris (19:49):
It is bold, but it is not something that was untested.
I did similar formats to this inthe suburbs of Chicago, where,
you'd be lucky to get a one share.
And all of a sudden we're gettingone fives and people are like,
Oh, this is a really cool radiostation , we did it, , we did it in
San Francisco and a few other markets.
So there is some variationwas on KTU for years.
(20:11):
So I think the advice that MusicmasterIguess I would give is the first
thing you've got to understandif you want to do this kind of a
format or some other variation fordifferent groups is even if you're a
subscriber to the ratings screw it.
Because the ratings is notdesigned for creativity.
It's not designed for passion.
It's designed, especially in PPM marketsfor, those people that are carrying
(20:35):
the thing that they don't even knowwhat it's for, except that they maybe
are going to get a gift card . Youhave to go in and you have to make the
emotional commitment to the format.
And then you have to be sure to hirepeople that believe in the mission,
because a lot of people in radio, notso much anymore because there's not many
left, but you know, back in the day,there was like the whole class of people
(20:57):
that would jump from station to station.
The station wasn't the mission,their performance was the mission.
Here, it's your performance is great,but you know, the radio station is what
matters to this community and you'repart of it becomes your performance.
Brad (21:15):
And, it's hard to replicate something like this for other niches.
I was thinking aboutthis question earlier.
Yeah.
And I have trouble under, maybe Spanishlanguage, I think probably has some of
this, certainly some of the religiousstations, Chris, to your point about
passion and things like that and belief.
I think they can do that, butI think that the issue really.
(21:36):
For radio as a whole, we've justgotten boring and we've gotten
formulaic with our radio programming.
There's really nothing terriblynew and exciting on the radio.
And so when something like KGAY comesalong, it makes a big impact because
it is so different and so unique.
And, I bought another station fromAudacy in fact, we bought the station
that had channel Q and took it to theMeTV FM format, and that's a, Very broad
(22:02):
format tied back to the TV channel.
, there are some parallels between the tworadio stations and the two do compliment
each other from a sales standpoint.
Chris (22:09):
Yeah.
I mean, it's all about passion.
I learned that in Chicago when we putthe Kiss station on out in Arlington
Heights and we're doing top 40 comesback to Chicago and most of the city.
You couldn't hear it, but man, where youcould people love that radio station.
And I and that was the, yeah, I mean,it was a lesson in, you can be the big
(22:30):
guy and you can follow the formula.
And you can be successful.
Or you can take some risks and maybeyou're going to have just as much success.
And then when Clear Channel made theirKiss and took our Kiss away, that's
when we put on Energy, which was justwas actually a 10 minute conversation.
It was me and Steve Davis, who was workingwith Guy and Steve as our consultants and,
(22:52):
uh, we're in the market manager's officewith the head of our company in LA, and
Then we're like, what are we going to do?
Because they're going to, theytold us they're taking the format.
They're also taking our namebecause they have it copyrighted.
So, you know, do wereally want to be top 40?
And so we're like, Oh, what are you doing?
And I just said, we could try dance.
Dave (23:11):
Oh yeah.
No, I remember that.
No, they did.
Chris (23:14):
And a couple of people are gonna be like, what?
And the head of the company, andthis is where it's important that
leaders understand when to take risks.
The head of the companysaid what dance you mean?
Like I said, you know, kind oflike club music, but not what
people think it is of the thumper,thumper, thumper, eight minute songs.
These are hit records that allhave this dancy rhythmic feel.
(23:35):
He's like, Oh, that sounds like fun.
Why did you do that?
And that was the end.
Boom.
We changed our format because,because he said, do it.
So take risks.
Our thanks to Brad Fuhr and Chris Shebel.
Links to their website andmore all in the show notes.
Just scroll down on your phoneor find it at brandwithondemand.
com.
Kipper (23:53):
As always, special thanks to our exec producer, Cindy
Huber, who put this all together.
And to Hannah B,, ourassociate producer for booking.
Speaking of which coming up next
Mike McVay (24:06):
Hello boys and girls.
It's Mike McVay here Inviting you todiscover the secrets of innovative
marketing We're going to show you howto leverage all your media platforms
and make your media brands standout in a crowded mediascape It's all
next time on BRANDwidth on Demand.
Dave (24:22):
That's a wrap.
Kipper.
It's time to reinventyour content or is it?
That's the topic of thisweek's one minute Martinizing.
Find it in the show notesat BRANDwidth On Demand.com.
I'm Dave Martin.
Kipper (24:35):
And I'm Kipper McGee.
Oh, youBRANDwidthst.
Be Wide!.
KGAY is a lifestyle, but it doesn't matter if you're 18 or 80.
KGAY is the gay radio station, andit's playing, hopefully, the music
that you like, a lot of the musicthat you remember, and then, from that
basic thing, then comes the magic.
VO (00:16):
Welcome to BRANDwidth On Demand, your guide to rebooting radio.
Brad (00:21):
The businesses that we do partner with they are getting great
success from the radio station.
That's it.
I mean, the thing is the advertisersdo get results from the station
and people are all the timegoing into our advertisers and
saying, I heard this on KGAY.
VO2 (00:36):
BRANDwidth On Demand, rebooting radio with a different take on
all radio can be now your guidesthrough the media morphosis.
David Martin.
And author of the book, BRANDwidth,media branding coach, Kipper McGee.
Dave (00:53):
Today, in a special celebration of LGBTQ plus pride month,
BRANDwidth On Demand is honoredto feature two key figures behind
a station whose name says it all.
KGAY.
K G A Y.
a station who embodiespride and inclusivity.
Brad Fuhr, the visionary owner of KGAY,began his illustrious career at just 15.
(01:19):
Significant roles at variousradio stations and broadcast
companies led to MS Interactive.
Brad has consistentlychampioned LGBTQ plus media.
In 2013, he founded BRANDwidthOn Demand, further integrating
and uplifting community voices.
Chris Shebel, KGAY's ProgramDirector, brings extensive
(01:41):
experience from top markets includingChicago, Phoenix, and Portland.
He pioneered dance hits format nationwide.
Together, they're transforming KGAYinto a vibrant, inclusive community hub
for the Coachella Valley and beyond.
From KGAY Radio in Palm Springs,BRANDwidth On Demand proudly
welcomes Brad Fuhr and Chris Shebel.
Kipper (02:06):
So I got to ask, and I think I'll throw this to Brad first, but Chris, chime
in what inspired you guys to integrateradio with digital content through the
BRANDwidth On Demand and how has thisimpacted your audience engagement?
Brad (02:23):
Well, I'll take that question first because I had BRANDwidth
On Demand for a number of years.
I was a little sidelined from radio.
I was teaching radio out hereat College of the Desert, but I
was not doing anything activelyin radio and I was missing it.
And I got wind of a new nonprofit startingup in the community where they were going
(02:43):
to take a commercial radio frequencyand start a Nonprofit organization
with an LGBTQ plus radio station.
Unfortunately this coincided almostexactly with when odyssey launched
channel Q, which was their LGBTQ offering.
They, I believe that the airwavesjust prior to when KGAY launched.
(03:05):
Is that correct?
About three weeks, three weeks or so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And uh, I started getting allof the great people that I know
together and Chris Shebel was hereand I think you were here in Palm
Springs at that time, were you not?
I was.
Yeah.
So we got you involved in theboard and we started architecting
the programming for KGAY.
(03:27):
And the nonprofit piece of it.
Unfortunately, did not survive.
And after about a year of running this asa kind of a hybrid for profit nonprofit
with Chris at the helm and programming,and I was managing the station the owners
that were funding this decided theywanted to go into a different direction.
And so at that point, after a year of.
(03:49):
and really a great integration betweenBRANDwidth On Demand and KGAY Radio.
They decided that they would take it adifferent direction, and Chris and I and
the whole team basically left the station.
But in that time, we had a chanceto experiment with this integration
of radio and Gay Desert Guide froma sales standpoint, and of course
(04:09):
we know that radio is a great driverof website traffic, so it was a no
brainer to have KGAY radio drivingtraffic over to Gay Desert Guide.
What we did in a sales effort was tryto package everything together so that
an advertiser who was already on GayDesert Guide could add a certain number
of spots per week in packages andintegrate those two things together.
(04:34):
And it worked.
I thought fairly well.
I don't think they thoughtit was moving fast enough.
That's when they pulled the plug.
We sat out COVID, which endedup being a blessing in disguise
that we had these two years off.
And then I came back and purchasedthe station from one of the two
owners who was very friendly to us.
And that's when we were able to kindof reenvision this and and get it
(04:58):
to where we really wanted it to be.
Chris, I'll let you take it from there.
Chris (05:02):
Uh, you know, anytime that you launch a radio format, you, the
old rule used to be one year in abook market, and then we got PPM.
It's like, Oh, now youcan tell in six months.
No, now you can tell in five weeks.
But it's not true.
It, it takes a long time to build a brand.
Uh, the idea of a gay radio station was.
Pretty revolutionary, when we were like,okay, we're going to do KGAY when KGAY
(05:24):
went on the air, you'd walk around town.
If you go, have you heard this?
You, what are they doing on the radio?
I think it brought people backinto radio as a destination.
And then the combination with BRANDwidthOn Demand, of course, because that
was already an established brand.
It gave us the opportunityto just take both of those
platforms and make them grow.
But like Brad was saying,the growth didn't happen the
(05:45):
way they wanted or whatever.
And, so we were just like,okay, I'm old, I'm semi retired.
I don't know.
I'll be happy to justlike lay by the pool.
And so we set it out for a little bit.
And.
The good news is one of the ownersbecame a very good friend and even
when I left, he's like, I wish youhadn't left, you know, he's very
(06:06):
nice and one of his dreams was thathe wanted to sell the radio station.
That's why they started the nonprofit.
He wanted to turn the radio station intoa gay radio station and run by members of
the gay community because he really felt.
It may be part of a legacy thing.
I don't know.
But he felt that, in thisparticular community that
would be the right thing to do.
(06:27):
And so here we are.
Brad (06:28):
And his name is Greg Smith.
He would not mind us, ofcourse, using his name.
And he sold me the radio station ata very, I thought, a very fair price.
He did.
AM station with an FM translatorand the translator at a, what, 175
Watts is probably the most successfultranslator in the United States
in terms of ratings and revenue.
Chris (06:49):
We're very fortunate.
Palm Springs is very, very unique.
It's extremely over radioed alsobecause of this, but we're in this
valley surrounded by mountains.
And so the LA signals, the SanDiego signals, all of the big ones.
I can't get over the mountains.
So we basically have a full spectrum here.
But because we're also enclosed andwe don't have tall buildings, I think
our tallest building is what fourstories now, or is it four stories?
Brad (07:11):
Yeah.
Chris (07:12):
We don't have multi path, so a translator it, it worked.
We weren't sure, frankly, what wasgoing to happen, but when we saw the
first ratings, when we subscribed,it's like, We're doing this with
a hundred seventy five watts
and now we have another signal too.
So we're even in a better situation now.
Dave (07:35):
Well, can you guys share your vision for the future of KGAY
and its role in the LGBTQ pluscommunity in Palm Springs and beyond?
I mean, how might that differfrom a mass market station?
What elements are the same?
Which ones are different?
Chris (07:49):
I think from the radio standpoint, a lot of the elements are the same.
We're primarily a music radio station.
Our format is hard for some people tofigure out because we play disco to death.
We're talking 50, 60 years worth ofmusic now that we integrate every hour.
Because the radio station is notdesigned, you know, most of my programming
(08:10):
experience has been, all right, wewant to go to get a 25, 54 women.
Okay.
What do you really want?
And then they break it down fromthere and you get narrower and
narrower to try and own a cell.
KGAY is just the opposite.
KGAY is a lifestyle, and it doesn'tmatter if you're 18 or 80, KGAY is the
gay radio station and it's playing...
hopefully the music that you like alot of the music that you remember.
(08:33):
And then , from that basic thing,this is what the structure is, then
comes the magic and that's the,I believe the, the people in the
the commitment to the community.
Our morning show.
If I was going to be doingit in LA, I probably would
do a lot of different things.
than, Hey, we're going to talkto so and so today about, the
(08:55):
theater production" or whatever.
But here we do that here.
KGAY is a local radio stationgeared to the gay community, but.
Not even just the gay community anymore.
Especially since we put on the secondsignal, things on Facebook and stuff
like, so from women in particular,in the area that we never conserved,
like I found this great radio stationand they don't care that it's gay.
Brad (09:19):
Yeah they kind of like to get in on what we're doing.
They're listening inright on the party line.
You know, And, your questionabout, a national brand or what
else would we do with this?
I would love to have a second, literallystreaming only channel of KGAY that
we could send across the world.
Now we do have peoplelistening all over the world.
We've opened up our streaming.
(09:39):
I have extremely high costs for streaming.
But that is, actually underwritten bythe Bureau of Tourism, which is fantastic.
But, I think if we had our druthers,we would have a second brand that
could be more music focused and more,probably more limited in our commercials.
And something that could stillbe a brand extension of, I think,
Chris (09:59):
uh, yeah.
KGAY is it's importantto keep in mind that.
KGAY really is now like a national brand.
You go anywhere there'sgay people in the U.
S., people know about KGAY.
We have people who listen every day.
They stream more than listento any of their local radio.
And that's because it'sfor their community.
(10:21):
And when you go from, Being likethe editorial people, the content
people, we do see now that part ofour job is to talk to the, to people.
We reach people that, live in thesestates where, they're starting to
feel afraid to leave their house.
And we are a lifeline.
And so part of our duty is, and it's, someconsulting guys go, Oh, that's bad radio.
(10:44):
They're talking for a minute we talkfor a minute because it's part of our
job is not just to play songs, but totell the people listening what's going
on in this world, because we may be theonly place that's going to tell them
what's happening for our community.
Right.
So, Chris, you have worked alot of formats, a lot of markets
tru dat!.
Kipper (11:05):
And you talked a little bit about, how that fits in with the community.
Can you walk us throughjust a basic formatic hour?
Or is there no such thing?
Well, I'm sure there is, \ cause Ischeduled the music, you know, we,
but I, every hour is a balanced outan hour of all the different genres.
(11:26):
And it's also based on alittle bit on how we live.
Like you'll hear more of the discoclassics, for example, or earlier in the
day than you will at 10 o'clock at night,cause we know that the audience for that,
like most people, my age are in bed.
But we also from day one wanted KGAYto always reflect current stuff too.
We play current songs and now that we'rea Mediabase reporter, everybody wants
(11:49):
to get their songs on, but you know,we can't do them all, not every week,
but so the music is all structured out.
And it's, you know, everything isbalanced based on era and the usual stuff.
What kind of, is it a pop song?
Is it an alt song?
You know, cause even in dance there arethose, those subcategories and then we've
got Harry Legg does our imaging and, Harryhas got the perfect sound for this format.
(12:13):
And when we can write some moreedgy ones, Harry can even make
them sound edgier, which we like.
And then we have a staff of mixersthat do a retro show every day at
noon, which does real well for us.
John Taylor, who does mornings isthe Gayborhood is what we call it.
Call it his Gayborhood, because I sayhe's the mayor of arenas, which is the
(12:34):
big street here where all the bars areand stuff, because everybody knows John
and, uh, we we don't tell him to shut up.
We tell him to when you talk to people,get to the main points and keep it
entertaining and that's his job.
And so basically it's a radiostation, but it's a radio station
designed for a specific group ofpeople, welcoming people from outside
(12:57):
of the group, but we're never.
Not going to be who we primarily are.
Dave (13:02):
You folks have certainly embraced and part of your magic
here is embracing your community.
Like the arts community hasto love you guys, right?
I mean, uh, that's got tobe an amazing relationship.
There has the community embraced you back.
Are you being financiallysupported by the community?
Brad (13:19):
Oh, yes.
I mean, I can speak to that the revenuehas literally doubled year over year.
The last couple of years, we came out ofcovid and, had some, then we basically
doubled that first year that we owned it.
We took it over in August and2022 was a pretty good year.
And then 2023, we doubled from there andwe're really on track to, to do well.
(13:42):
Not only the LGBTQ ownedbusinesses are supporting us,
but, there's many that are allies.
There are some businesses thatI would not take money from.
I know that there are some businessesthat are not supportive of us.
We try not to look at it in black andwhite political terms, but there are
some businesses that just, we wouldn'twant to take their money because we don't
(14:03):
believe they would be supportive of us.
It would be more of a, they'reopportunistic and we don't want that.
So the businesses that we dopartner with they are getting great
success from the radio station.
That's it.
I mean, the thing is the advertisersdo get results from the station
and people are all the timegoing into our advertisers and
saying, I heard this on KGAY.
(14:23):
, we've got a couple of salespeoplethat write incredible copy.
Paul Saliano, who hasbeen in radio for years.
He made the jump from programming tosales, and he has done just a fantastic
job in making sure that the spots areas engaging as the programming is.
Chris (14:39):
I think part of the challenge with when you do, especially when you
launch a radio station is, uh, where arethe revenue streams going to come from?
And I think we were very fortunatebecause Brad was already here, and
he's been doing non traditional mediafor, with Gay Desert Guide a few years.
So when we put it on we didn't have togo in and go, hi, we're this brand new
radio station that you know nothing aboutand nothing about the people behind us.
(14:59):
And we hope you like us.
We already had.
People that knew the product ofGay Desert Guide so then it came
teaching them the value of radio and.
An active audience.
It's so much easier.
Well, you guys know, I rememberback in the old days of top 40, when
everybody would listen to the radioand you would go and go, you'd do a
bit and a hundred people would showup and the advertiser, even if they
(15:23):
didn't, if they were like only lookingat ratings, might go like, Oh, geez.
I may have to rethink that.
And we got away from that in radio ingeneral, because we don't have people
to go out there and do that anymore.
And, we also philosophically, somethink that none of that matters,
but we still think it does.
And it certainly helps our sales effort,
Kipper (15:41):
So speaking of sales, can you share with us without having to kill
us, uh, any recent initiatives orpartnerships or anything that really
contributed to KGAY's growth and success?
Brad (15:53):
Well, I, mentioned briefly the fact that Visit Palm Springs has been a great
supporter of ours and even to the pointwhere they funded the streaming costs
because the those costs for streamingare just incredible when you're doing,
well north of a million streams per
per month you have to paythousands and thousands of dollars.
So that's been helpful.
(16:14):
We work with Palm SpringsInternational Airport.
We're doing a big promotion with oneof the LGBT travel companies right
now with the Chris's, song of the daycontest, which is a tried and true
radio winner, and we tied that back tothe airport providing airfare and this
great cruise in Europe this summer.
The response to those kindsof things has been very good.
(16:37):
We've got a great sales teamand you know, I package sell.
We make this very simple.
There are three packagesthat an advertiser can buy.
It's a kind of a saturation package,a medium package of about 25 spots
per week, and then a branding plan,which is like three spots a day, one
prime, one evening, one overnight.
And you know, the, the.
(16:57):
It's easy for an advertiserto understand that.
I think we've made radio way toocomplicated to buy, and I really
discovered this when we first put KGAY onthe air, but now that formula works very
well, tried and true, an agency is goingto buy differently, slightly differently.
We don't get a lot of agencybusiness, but in this case, an
advertiser gets it and they get.
(17:19):
Results from it
Chris (17:19):
and it doesn't hurt that many of them.
Love the radio station person.
Dave (17:23):
We're with the KGAY guys, Brad Fuhr and Chris Shebel.
Is there a guest or topicyou'd love for us to feature?
Well, let us know.
Email your suggestions toshow@brandwithondemand.com or
connect with us on social Brad withPlus on Instagram, Facebook, and X.
That's brand with plus PLUS brand with.
(17:44):
Plus,
Kipper (17:45):
and if you're enjoying this or even learning stuff from it,
we invite you to spread the word.
So others can too, just tell themto follow BRANDwidth On Demand
wherever you're getting this
Dave (17:57):
Coming up, we asked Brad Fuhr, and Chris Shiebel for their
tips on creating niche programming,including some things they've learned.
Spot (18:08):
I'm a music director at any radio station USA.
I do a five hour shift,hours of production, live
appearances out the Yazoo.
And oh yeah, my PD just heard twoslow songs back to back followed
by three of the same artist.
My station sounds like a dumpster fire.
If you have any other music schedulingsoftware, this could be you.
(18:29):
Get Musicmaster and your stationwill sound like a well curated album.
Entertainment machine, and youcould avoid mayhem like me.
Details at Musicmaster.Com.
Spot2 (18:39):
Imagine having your own prep team working nonstop, a producer picking the
best content, a copywriter, making everystory hit home and a marketer finding
new ways to grow your audience allwhile a digital team keeps your feeds
fresh with posts, updates, and videos.
(18:59):
What if these pros were available?
24 seven market.
Exclusive and affordable for yourradio station, power up your content
before the competition does with radiocontent pro see the demo in action.
Just scroll down the show notesor visit radio content pro.
(19:20):
com.
Dave (19:21):
Guys, what advice would you give to other radio managers and owners
looking to create a successful nichestation that serves a really specific
community like you've done so well?
Brad (19:38):
Well, , Chris and I are both looking at each other on that one.
Dave (19:42):
You guys made a rather bold move here.
, you have to admit, mean, take,take credit for this bold move.
I mean, it really is.
Chris (19:49):
It is bold, but it is not something that was untested.
I did similar formats to this inthe suburbs of Chicago, where,
you'd be lucky to get a one share.
And all of a sudden we're gettingone fives and people are like,
Oh, this is a really cool radiostation , we did it, , we did it in
San Francisco and a few other markets.
So there is some variationwas on KTU for years.
(20:11):
So I think the advice that MusicmasterIguess I would give is the first
thing you've got to understandif you want to do this kind of a
format or some other variation fordifferent groups is even if you're a
subscriber to the ratings screw it.
Because the ratings is notdesigned for creativity.
It's not designed for passion.
It's designed, especially in PPM marketsfor, those people that are carrying
(20:35):
the thing that they don't even knowwhat it's for, except that they maybe
are going to get a gift card . Youhave to go in and you have to make the
emotional commitment to the format.
And then you have to be sure to hirepeople that believe in the mission,
because a lot of people in radio, notso much anymore because there's not many
left, but you know, back in the day,there was like the whole class of people
(20:57):
that would jump from station to station.
The station wasn't the mission,their performance was the mission.
Here, it's your performance is great,but you know, the radio station is what
matters to this community and you'repart of it becomes your performance.
Brad (21:15):
And, it's hard to replicate something like this for other niches.
I was thinking aboutthis question earlier.
Yeah.
And I have trouble under, maybe Spanishlanguage, I think probably has some of
this, certainly some of the religiousstations, Chris, to your point about
passion and things like that and belief.
I think they can do that, butI think that the issue really.
(21:36):
For radio as a whole, we've justgotten boring and we've gotten
formulaic with our radio programming.
There's really nothing terriblynew and exciting on the radio.
And so when something like KGAY comesalong, it makes a big impact because
it is so different and so unique.
And, I bought another station fromAudacy in fact, we bought the station
that had channel Q and took it to theMeTV FM format, and that's a, Very broad
(22:02):
format tied back to the TV channel.
, there are some parallels between the tworadio stations and the two do compliment
each other from a sales standpoint.
Chris (22:09):
Yeah.
I mean, it's all about passion.
I learned that in Chicago when we putthe Kiss station on out in Arlington
Heights and we're doing top 40 comesback to Chicago and most of the city.
You couldn't hear it, but man, where youcould people love that radio station.
And I and that was the, yeah, I mean,it was a lesson in, you can be the big
(22:30):
guy and you can follow the formula.
And you can be successful.
Or you can take some risks and maybeyou're going to have just as much success.
And then when Clear Channel made theirKiss and took our Kiss away, that's
when we put on Energy, which was justwas actually a 10 minute conversation.
It was me and Steve Davis, who was workingwith Guy and Steve as our consultants and,
(22:52):
uh, we're in the market manager's officewith the head of our company in LA, and
Then we're like, what are we going to do?
Because they're going to, theytold us they're taking the format.
They're also taking our namebecause they have it copyrighted.
So, you know, do wereally want to be top 40?
And so we're like, Oh, what are you doing?
And I just said, we could try dance.
Dave (23:11):
Oh yeah.
No, I remember that.
No, they did.
Chris (23:14):
And a couple of people are gonna be like, what?
And the head of the company, andthis is where it's important that
leaders understand when to take risks.
The head of the companysaid what dance you mean?
Like I said, you know, kind oflike club music, but not what
people think it is of the thumper,thumper, thumper, eight minute songs.
These are hit records that allhave this dancy rhythmic feel.
(23:35):
He's like, Oh, that sounds like fun.
Why did you do that?
And that was the end.
Boom.
We changed our format because,because he said, do it.
So take risks.
Our thanks to Brad Fuhr and Chris Shebel.
Links to their website andmore all in the show notes.
Just scroll down on your phoneor find it at brandwithondemand.
com.
Kipper (23:53):
As always, special thanks to our exec producer, Cindy
Huber, who put this all together.
And to Hannah B,, ourassociate producer for booking.
Speaking of which coming up next
Mike McVay (24:06):
Hello boys and girls.
It's Mike McVay here Inviting you todiscover the secrets of innovative
marketing We're going to show you howto leverage all your media platforms
and make your media brands standout in a crowded mediascape It's all
next time on BRANDwidth on Demand.
Dave (24:22):
That's a wrap.
Kipper.
It's time to reinventyour content or is it?
That's the topic of thisweek's one minute Martinizing.
Find it in the show notesat BRANDwidth On Demand.com.
I'm Dave Martin.
Kipper (24:35):
And I'm Kipper McGee.
Oh, youBRANDwidthst.
Be Wide!.
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