Radio ratings are about to shift—and in a good way. Nielsen’s Jon Miller joins BRANDwidth On Demand to reveal the five most important changes broadcasters need to know now. From the new Three Minute Rule (yes, it could instantly bump your ratings) to how wearables and mobile diaries are modernizing measurement, Jon gives us a front-row seat to Nielsen’s evolving approach to audio.
If you're in radio, podcasting, or media buying, this is your roadmap to the future of audience insights—and how to make sure your brand gets credit where credit is due.
🧠In This Episode:
- How the Three Minute Rule is changing audience credit in PPM markets
- Why mobile diary options could reshape smaller markets
- Nielsen's partnership with Edison and why Share of Ear data matters
- How AI is already being used in audio attribution and analysis
- Why radio still dominates ad-supported audio (yes, really—70% of it!)
- What the industry can expect from the Nielsen One project
One-Minute Martinizing (tap here)
Please help us thank these underwriting supporters
Return to BRANDwidth on Demand episodes
Mentioned in this episode:
www.radiocontentpro.com/brandwidth
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The goal of Nielsen 1 in thefuture is to be able to measure everything
and to truly give what theycall unduplicated reach.
Brand with On Demand Rebootingradio with a different take on all
radio can be.
Sure there might be betteralgorithms out there on Spotify or
other places.
Sure, podcasts are amazing andgive you access to things you can't
(00:23):
get anywhere else.
But the local nature of radio,the local community, the ability
to connect, that I think isthe key.
As long as radio keeps that inits sights, I think radio will be
just fine.
Now your guides through themediamorphosis, David Martin and
author of the book Brand withmedia branding coach Kipper McGee.
(00:43):
Well, this time we welcomeJohn Miller, vice president of audio
insights at Nielsen.
He'll be discussing thefascinating changes in audience measurement
that are reshaping the radio industry.
In fact, all audio.
As media consumption shiftsand evolves, understanding how audiences
are captured and has neverbeen more critical.
John will share how Nielsen isadapting its methodologies, including
(01:06):
PPM and diary markets, to helpyou make the most of their data.
With new platforms likepodcasting and streaming becoming
major factors, even YouTubeemerging as an audience hub, how
can radio stay ahead of the game?
John's insights into upcomingtrends and tools are a must hear
for anyone committed to thefuture of audio.
(01:29):
So let's dive right into it.
How can we keep radiorelevant, resilient and ready for
what's next?
Brand with On Demand is proudto welcome Nielsen Audio maven, John
Miller.
Hey, John.
Welcome guys.
Thank you.
Great to be here.
I appreciate the introduction.
So I will take that as aquestion and just jump right in if
(01:50):
you'd like.
Oh, go for it.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
So at Nielsen, of course, ourtask is to have the best measurement
possible to give the industrythe best tools.
And so we're doing a lot of things.
And I'll talk about this ontwo sides, I think one is fundamentally
methodologically, you know, wehave moved in our PPM markets, we
(02:11):
have moved to entirely awearable technology.
So the PPM meter is now a wearable.
It used to be a pager typedevice you would carry around and
you get incentivized to do that.
Now it's a wearable device.
Think of a smartwatch orsomething like that.
So that is a huge update interms of usability, ease of compliance.
So PPM markets are now 100% wearable.
(02:33):
And in diary markets, we aremoving towards having a mobile option
available, meaning that peoplecan still fill out paper pencil diaries.
Because there are certaingroups that respond best with a literal
hard copy diary.
But we also want to make itavailable to others to do it from
a mobile device.
So those are some of thebackground things we're doing again
(02:54):
to think about how can we getbetter response rates, how can we
keep younger consumers inparticular part of our surveys and
responding the way we needthem to be?
So from a methodologystandpoint, those are the things
we've really been focused onand spending money on the last few
years.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
And along with that too,you've tried to broaden the scope
(03:14):
with your total audience thing.
So how is that frameworkevolving to account for kind of the
growing diversity with all theplatforms you talked about?
Sure, yeah, great point.
So I talked about kind of likethe heart hardware part of it, if
you will, like how do weliterally, you know, survey people
and get them to record theirhabits, but from the other side of
(03:35):
things, which is data andfusion and methodology and how do
you bring different platformstogether even if you don't measure
them all in the same place?
So that's been also a bigfocus because as you said, the audio
landscape continues to evolve,continues to get bigger.
Radio is still a huge part ofit, but there are so many other places
people can get their audio.
So we're doing a lot ofdifferent things.
(03:56):
And I'll start by talkingabout our partnership with, with
Edison Research.
So as you probably know,Edison is, you know, a really well
known research company.
They own some of the podcast space.
They also have an amazingproduct called the Share of Ear,
which is something that's beengoing on for 10 years that looks
at how do you spend your timewith audio.
(04:17):
So we partner with Edison now,we produce insights together.
So those kind of share of timeinsights are now part of our insights
as well.
For example, the latest datathat we have, which is from Q3 of
this year, talks about of thedaily time people spend with ad supported
audio, which by the way is akey difference.
Right, because some of thosethings you Talked about, like YouTube
(04:39):
or, you know, when you pay forSpotify, you don't get served ads.
So from an advertisingperspective, that's not really a,
that's not really in play.
So ad supported is so important.
So of all the daily adssupported time people are spending
with audio, radio gets almost70% of that on a daily basis.
People talk about radiolistening is changing, right?
(05:00):
Competition is increasing,fragmentation is happening.
And yet almost 70% of all thedaily time we spend with ad supported
audio is going to radio.
And podcasts is Next, it'snumber two, but it's at 20%, so it's
a pretty big difference.
So we partner with Edison tohave their insights.
We're also working behind thescenes to bring some of their data
(05:21):
into the planning tools thatget used out there.
So right now it's hard in someof the planning tools to account
for podcasts and to accountfor streaming audio.
And we're working to make thateasier to do so that if you're a
media buyer, you can plan andbuy on not just radio, but also podcasting
and also streaming audio andpotentially YouTube, because, you
(05:44):
know, that's our goal, is tomake all the data available to the
industry and to the plannersand the buyers.
What are some of the biggestchallenges that you guys face in
Nielsen when trying to trackall of this across all these multiple
platforms?
Right, That's a great question.
And that's something thatNielsen faces across the board.
On the viewing side, it'smaybe even more challenging.
(06:06):
Think about all the ways, allthe places you can get viewing content
now.
So to give a simpler answer,you know, where Nielsen can't measure
it themselves, first person,we rely on third person, third party
sources.
We use big data, we bring inother data sets.
You know, we have an entiredata science team and that's their
(06:27):
job, is to figure out how tosynthesize, how to put together all
these data sets that make sense.
I mean, that's the world thatwe live in today.
You know, the most valuablecompanies in the world now produce
data, right?
They produce metrics andthere's so much data, there's so
much big data floating aroundout there.
So at Nielsen, we're workingreally hard to figure out, you know,
what makes the most sense,what can we combine with our traditional
(06:49):
Hannel based ratings to giveus that deeper understanding.
Because the long term goal,you might have heard some of this
kicked about, Nielsen has aproject called Nielsen One.
And the goal of Nielsen One inthe future is to be able to measure
everything and to be able totruly give what they call unduplicated
(07:10):
reach.
So to literally, like on a, onthe video side, be able to find a
way technologically to measurethe show Yellowstone, which you can
find in a hundred different places.
You can watch it live, right?
Right.
You can watch it on demand,you can watch it on Rerun, you can
watch it on Xfinity, you canwatch it on Amazon, you can watch
it here, you can watch it there.
Like, how do you, how do youtag all of those pieces of content
(07:32):
so you can capture It.
So from a methodologystandpoint, that's a big undertaking
and we are working towards that.
And then how do you synthesizeall that data together to give unduplicated
reach?
Like, that's the Holy grailthat advertisers have always wanted.
Because today, you know, wehave TV measured one way, radio measured
another.
All the different platformscome in through different pipes,
(07:52):
if you will.
How do you get a trueunduplicated number?
If you're an advertiser andyou're running a campaign that ran
across different platformsover the air, streamed on demand,
all these things, how do youget a true read on who caught the
ads?
Big.
So that's a part of the planfor the future, is to move towards
that.
And we're making progress.
(08:13):
It takes a while to turn anaircraft carrier, Nielsen's an aircraft
carrier, but we're workingtowards it.
We're working towards it.
Any kind of ETA and when thatmight be, I mean, we're looking like
five years or 25 years.
What are you thinking?
Yeah, not 25 years.
And I can tell you thatNielsen's already made a ton of progress
on the video side becausethat's the core of Nielsen's business.
(08:34):
Audio isn't really importantpart, but, you know, the core of
Nielsen's business is TV ratings.
And so, you know, we alreadyhave in the marketplace multiple
products that do some of whatI'm talking about, this Nielsen One
project is in the process ofrolling out in some ways in video,
and that's been five or sixyears of development to get it to
this point.
So, you know, we're still inthe implementation and planning stage
(08:58):
for audio.
It's not going to be 25 years,but it's not ready yet.
So in the meantime, where canwe make a difference?
How can we bring in the bestavailable data?
That's how Nielsen thinks ofit, is like, this is currently our
best available data.
And then in the future, wemight have something better.
But for now, let's give theindustry the best that we have.
Right.
But with all of these variousmetrics now.
(09:21):
And of course, if somebodydoes see, for example, a Yellowstone
spot, like on their phone andon tv, that would count as two impressions
still, because they're seeingit twice.
Right.
Well, it's also so complicatedbecause there's no guarantee it's
the same ad either.
That's where this gets so muchmore complicated.
Think about, like, programmatic.
(09:41):
Right?
Okay.
Think about how you get servedthings right.
You get served an ad based onthe device you're on based on your
geography.
So it is infinitely morecomplicated than it ever used to
be.
So again, Nielsen's hard towork writing all the code to figure
that out and using AI to help us.
But yeah, it is.
It is not as simple as just aone to one.
You were on the TV show, thisspot aired, everyone must have seen
(10:03):
it.
It's not that simple anymore.
So.
So shifting gears back toaudio, is AI somehow also being used
on the station side or on yourcustomer side to kind of siphon?
Like back when I was doingstation side PPM analysis, you know,
(10:24):
we'd go through, you know,minute by minute and see which things
were working and calendaringout stuff and seeing where the hotspots
were weak spots.
Is AI being implemented byanybody right now?
Are there any smart peoplethat are doing interesting things?
Are there any devices, arethere any software programs, kind
(10:46):
of like we used to have theprogrammers package back in the day?
Any AI tools like that thatbeing thought of or in development?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I can tell you we use AIinternally at Nielsen, like everybody
does, to help us be better andmore efficient, help us crunch data,
help us solve more complex problems.
(11:07):
So like the rest of the world,we're certainly using it.
It's our methodology.
And what we do is still verymuch based on the judgment of all
the people that have workedhere all these years.
But I can tell you, but yes,there are consultants out there in
the industry that areabsolutely using AI to do the things
you just mentioned, to crunchminute by minute PPM data, to look
(11:28):
at exposures, to look atattribution features.
So, sure, it's all happeningout there.
Again, we're trying to use it.
I can only answer, really,from Nielsen, but I know that we're
using it to make things easierand to be more efficient, to do less
with more.
Right.
Especially when it comes tocrunching big data.
So that's how we use it.
What advice do you have, John,for station people, radio people,
(11:50):
to effectively prepare for theshifts and measurement and make the
most out of all these greattools you're talking about?
Sure.
Well, I always start bytalking about the importance of local
audio, local radio, and justhow unique that is, which is why
radio continues to persist assuch an important part of the audio
landscape.
(12:11):
You know, you made a fewcomments about TV and we had a laugh
earlier.
You know, but think about howmuch like broadcast TV ratings have
changed outside of, and howoutside of sports, it is a totally
different ball game.
So radio in a way is in a muchBetter place because radio still
(12:33):
offers stuff you cannot getanywhere else.
The local connection.
I mean, think about localsports talk radio.
I don't think that will evergo away.
I think that will always bearound in some way, shape or form
because there's nowhere elsethat offers that kind of community.
And so you can expand thatexample out to all of radio.
So I just want to remindeveryone to keep making sure you
do that.
(12:53):
Like, yes, you should payattention to competition.
Yes, you should pay attentionto what everyone else is doing and
how audio is used.
But don't try to be whatSpotify is.
Be radio.
You know, be what radio is andoffer the things that only radio
has.
So that said in the diarymarkets, we are seeing our response
rates get better, we areseeing our compliance rates get better,
(13:15):
which is great.
That's what we're paid to do.
That's why people play Nielsen.
A lot of money is to get goodsamples coming in the second half
of 2025.
We're gonna, we're gonna rollout the mobile survey option, which
will be great.
Again, you know, we're notlooking to impact the data, we're
looking to impact the sampleand make sure that we have as robust
a sample as possible in PPM markets.
(13:37):
We have a whole other prioritygoing on.
You might have heard aboutthis recently called the three minute
qualifier.
And that's a change we'remaking starting in January where
we are adjusting the creditingrule for what it takes to be counted
as a listener and therefore anadvertising impression for radio.
And to sum it up, we're goingto be changing that rule and as a
result, we're going to seemore audience on radio stations,
(13:59):
service level wide.
So we expect average audienceto be increasing around 20% by making
this change.
And so that's going to be great.
It's going to look great yearover year.
So, you know, we're upgradingthe measurement to be more timely.
And then again, we have to goback to what I said earlier, continue
doing what you can to makeradio a daily destination.
Right.
You've got a lot ofcompetition on a daily basis, give
(14:22):
people reasons to keep comingback every day.
And that's something radio hasdone for years.
So, John, for the people whomay not yet be read in on the three
minute rule, should youexplain the difference between that
and the old five minute way weused to look at things?
Yes, absolutely.
So through a lot ofconversations with our clients and
with the industry, our clientshave been saying to us, is there
(14:42):
a way to improve the crediting Rules.
And if you think about it, youknow, someone today could see a video
ad on TikTok and they could beon that ad for two or three seconds
and be counted as animpression, right?
Things have changed sodramatically with digital, with mobile
and radio requires fiveminutes of listening inside a quarter
(15:07):
hour, inside a 15 minute blockto be counted as a listener.
So in PPM markets we know,because it's so granular that there's
a significant amount oflistening that takes place that is
not five minutes long.
So what we decided to do afterlooking at the data and talking with
our clients and talking withthe industry is we decided to change
the rule from five minutes oflistening in a quarter hour to down
(15:27):
to three.
And just by doing that, we'reexpecting about a 20% increase in
audience levels at the servicelevel, meaning across PPM, you should
see about 20% more audiencenow by changing that rule.
Because what you're doing isyou're capturing listening that is
there, that is meaningful,that is happening, but isn't currently
being credited.
You might listen for three minutes.
By the way, most songs areabout three minutes long, right?
(15:51):
So you might have a threeminute occasion.
And in the current rules, thatdoesn't get counted.
So by changing that rule, bytweaking it from five minutes down
to three, we're going toincrease audience, we're going to
capture more impressions.
That's the real reason why wedid this, right, is to give advertisers
more impressions to countagainst their ads.
But that's really the basis of it.
By making this small change,which makes sense, which modernizes
(16:14):
radio measurement in today'sdigital age, we're not going to go
to second level stuff orminute level stuff.
But this gets us closer.
As I said, you could see avideo ad for a couple seconds and
count as an impression andradio takes five minutes of listening.
So we wanted to update thatand make it a little bit more modern
and we think the results aregoing to be great.
Wow.
Yeah.
(16:34):
That's incredible.
And in Diary, we're not makingthis change.
It's still five minutes in Diary.
I'm sure people listen forthree minutes in Diary, but they
don't write that down.
Diary is a recall based systemand human beings don't usually recall
really short occasions of anything.
We tend to record it in longer blocks.
So we don't have motivation todo this in the diary.
(16:55):
The diary's, you know, doingits job.
It's getting listening for us.
As I said, we're modernizingthe tool, but we're not making this
change in diary because a verysmall amount of the occasions we
capture are less than fiveminutes long in a diary.
Nielsen's John Miller.
Hey, know someone who weshould interview or a topic we ought
to cover?
Well, let us know.
Email your suggestions toshow@brandwithondemand.com or reach
(17:21):
out on social BrandWithPlus onInstagram, Facebook and X.
That's BrandWithPlus.
BrandWithPlus.
Hey, are you feeling just alittle bit better informed now that
you've heard John tell uswhat's going on with Nielsen?
Well, if so, please pass it onto somebody else who could also use
(17:41):
a boost in the ratings and thecareer department.
Just tell them, hit the follow button.
We're everywhere.
Brown with On Demand.
Coming up, Nielsen's JohnMiller shares something that could
help your ratings tomorrow,and it might be hiding in plain sight.
Yeah, we have a lot going on,multiple stations and formats.
(18:04):
We really need to bundle them all.
Yeah, that sounds really good.
Who are you talking to?
Yeah, I'd like that.
It's Dave from Music Master.
Dave from Music Master at twoin the morning?
Who is this?
I told you, it's Dave fromMusic Master.
Dave from Music Master, huh?
What are you wearing?
Huh?
Khakis from the industry'sbest music scheduling software, Nexus
(18:26):
integration, client server,and yes, 247 support.
Just like your favoriteneighbor, Music Master.
Is theredetails@musicmaster.com opportunities
hidden in plain sight.
Plain Sight.
With On Demand, we're withNielsen's John Miller.
John, what's the oneopportunity for radio stations that
(18:48):
you feel may be hiding inplain sight?
That's a great question.
I might default to something Isaid earlier, which is the local
nature of what radio does,because that is truly.
That is truly how radio stands out.
Sure, there might be betteralgorithms out there on Spotify or
(19:09):
other places, and sure,podcasts are amazing and give you
access to things you can't getanywhere else.
But the local nature of radio,the local community, the ability
to connect with people in thecommunity and serve them in addition
to the music, that I think isthe key.
And I think as long as radiokeeps that in its sights and doesn't
(19:29):
get too far away from thatkind of local edict, I think radio
will be just fine, becausethat's what is the lifeblood of radio,
despite all the other thingsthat are out there.
That's why radio is stillcommanding such a huge share of people's
time, because we can get themusic anywhere, but we also want
that local connection.
So I think that's really the key.
(19:51):
John Miller hey, we've gotlinks to all kinds of great stuff
from John and others.
Ed Nielsen there's more all inthe show notes.
Just scroll down on your phone.
So if you if you're new to.
The podcast, well, that'sreally great too.
Awesome.
Just don't forget to smash thefollow button on your favorite podcast
app.
And if you've been with us fora while, please spread the love.
(20:12):
Tell a friend Brand with On Demand.
We're available whereverbetter podcasts are found.
And with over 200 episodes,we're here to help you master the
art of audio like a pro.
And coming up next, think your show's.
Good enough as is Cool.
But do you want real growth,more listeners, better engagement,
(20:34):
the whole deal.
Hi, I'm Hannah B.
And Todd Webster gets it.
He's the mind behind sound profitable.
Helps Spotify, SiriusXM andNPR level up.
And his new book, the Audienceis Listening breaks it all down.
Why trust is the secret sauceand how to actually earn it.
That's next time.
(20:55):
That's a wrap.
Kipper.
As is often said, readers are leaders.
We've got something you shouldbe reading.
Oh, you'll find it in one minute.
Martinizing.
It's in the shownotes@brandwithondemand.com I'm Dave
Martin.
And I'm Kipper McGee.
May all your brand with be wide.
The goal of Nielsen 1 in thefuture is to be able to measure everything
and to truly give what theycall unduplicated reach.
Brand with On Demand Rebootingradio with a different take on all
radio can be.
Sure there might be betteralgorithms out there on Spotify or
other places.
Sure, podcasts are amazing andgive you access to things you can't
(00:23):
get anywhere else.
But the local nature of radio,the local community, the ability
to connect, that I think isthe key.
As long as radio keeps that inits sights, I think radio will be
just fine.
Now your guides through themediamorphosis, David Martin and
author of the book Brand withmedia branding coach Kipper McGee.
(00:43):
Well, this time we welcomeJohn Miller, vice president of audio
insights at Nielsen.
He'll be discussing thefascinating changes in audience measurement
that are reshaping the radio industry.
In fact, all audio.
As media consumption shiftsand evolves, understanding how audiences
are captured and has neverbeen more critical.
John will share how Nielsen isadapting its methodologies, including
(01:06):
PPM and diary markets, to helpyou make the most of their data.
With new platforms likepodcasting and streaming becoming
major factors, even YouTubeemerging as an audience hub, how
can radio stay ahead of the game?
John's insights into upcomingtrends and tools are a must hear
for anyone committed to thefuture of audio.
(01:29):
So let's dive right into it.
How can we keep radiorelevant, resilient and ready for
what's next?
Brand with On Demand is proudto welcome Nielsen Audio maven, John
Miller.
Hey, John.
Welcome guys.
Thank you.
Great to be here.
I appreciate the introduction.
So I will take that as aquestion and just jump right in if
(01:50):
you'd like.
Oh, go for it.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
So at Nielsen, of course, ourtask is to have the best measurement
possible to give the industrythe best tools.
And so we're doing a lot of things.
And I'll talk about this ontwo sides, I think one is fundamentally
methodologically, you know, wehave moved in our PPM markets, we
(02:11):
have moved to entirely awearable technology.
So the PPM meter is now a wearable.
It used to be a pager typedevice you would carry around and
you get incentivized to do that.
Now it's a wearable device.
Think of a smartwatch orsomething like that.
So that is a huge update interms of usability, ease of compliance.
So PPM markets are now 100% wearable.
(02:33):
And in diary markets, we aremoving towards having a mobile option
available, meaning that peoplecan still fill out paper pencil diaries.
Because there are certaingroups that respond best with a literal
hard copy diary.
But we also want to make itavailable to others to do it from
a mobile device.
So those are some of thebackground things we're doing again
(02:54):
to think about how can we getbetter response rates, how can we
keep younger consumers inparticular part of our surveys and
responding the way we needthem to be?
So from a methodologystandpoint, those are the things
we've really been focused onand spending money on the last few
years.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
And along with that too,you've tried to broaden the scope
(03:14):
with your total audience thing.
So how is that frameworkevolving to account for kind of the
growing diversity with all theplatforms you talked about?
Sure, yeah, great point.
So I talked about kind of likethe heart hardware part of it, if
you will, like how do weliterally, you know, survey people
and get them to record theirhabits, but from the other side of
(03:35):
things, which is data andfusion and methodology and how do
you bring different platformstogether even if you don't measure
them all in the same place?
So that's been also a bigfocus because as you said, the audio
landscape continues to evolve,continues to get bigger.
Radio is still a huge part ofit, but there are so many other places
people can get their audio.
So we're doing a lot ofdifferent things.
(03:56):
And I'll start by talkingabout our partnership with, with
Edison Research.
So as you probably know,Edison is, you know, a really well
known research company.
They own some of the podcast space.
They also have an amazingproduct called the Share of Ear,
which is something that's beengoing on for 10 years that looks
at how do you spend your timewith audio.
(04:17):
So we partner with Edison now,we produce insights together.
So those kind of share of timeinsights are now part of our insights
as well.
For example, the latest datathat we have, which is from Q3 of
this year, talks about of thedaily time people spend with ad supported
audio, which by the way is akey difference.
Right, because some of thosethings you Talked about, like YouTube
(04:39):
or, you know, when you pay forSpotify, you don't get served ads.
So from an advertisingperspective, that's not really a,
that's not really in play.
So ad supported is so important.
So of all the daily adssupported time people are spending
with audio, radio gets almost70% of that on a daily basis.
People talk about radiolistening is changing, right?
(05:00):
Competition is increasing,fragmentation is happening.
And yet almost 70% of all thedaily time we spend with ad supported
audio is going to radio.
And podcasts is Next, it'snumber two, but it's at 20%, so it's
a pretty big difference.
So we partner with Edison tohave their insights.
We're also working behind thescenes to bring some of their data
(05:21):
into the planning tools thatget used out there.
So right now it's hard in someof the planning tools to account
for podcasts and to accountfor streaming audio.
And we're working to make thateasier to do so that if you're a
media buyer, you can plan andbuy on not just radio, but also podcasting
and also streaming audio andpotentially YouTube, because, you
(05:44):
know, that's our goal, is tomake all the data available to the
industry and to the plannersand the buyers.
What are some of the biggestchallenges that you guys face in
Nielsen when trying to trackall of this across all these multiple
platforms?
Right, That's a great question.
And that's something thatNielsen faces across the board.
On the viewing side, it'smaybe even more challenging.
(06:06):
Think about all the ways, allthe places you can get viewing content
now.
So to give a simpler answer,you know, where Nielsen can't measure
it themselves, first person,we rely on third person, third party
sources.
We use big data, we bring inother data sets.
You know, we have an entiredata science team and that's their
(06:27):
job, is to figure out how tosynthesize, how to put together all
these data sets that make sense.
I mean, that's the world thatwe live in today.
You know, the most valuablecompanies in the world now produce
data, right?
They produce metrics andthere's so much data, there's so
much big data floating aroundout there.
So at Nielsen, we're workingreally hard to figure out, you know,
what makes the most sense,what can we combine with our traditional
(06:49):
Hannel based ratings to giveus that deeper understanding.
Because the long term goal,you might have heard some of this
kicked about, Nielsen has aproject called Nielsen One.
And the goal of Nielsen One inthe future is to be able to measure
everything and to be able totruly give what they call unduplicated
(07:10):
reach.
So to literally, like on a, onthe video side, be able to find a
way technologically to measurethe show Yellowstone, which you can
find in a hundred different places.
You can watch it live, right?
Right.
You can watch it on demand,you can watch it on Rerun, you can
watch it on Xfinity, you canwatch it on Amazon, you can watch
it here, you can watch it there.
Like, how do you, how do youtag all of those pieces of content
(07:32):
so you can capture It.
So from a methodologystandpoint, that's a big undertaking
and we are working towards that.
And then how do you synthesizeall that data together to give unduplicated
reach?
Like, that's the Holy grailthat advertisers have always wanted.
Because today, you know, wehave TV measured one way, radio measured
another.
All the different platformscome in through different pipes,
(07:52):
if you will.
How do you get a trueunduplicated number?
If you're an advertiser andyou're running a campaign that ran
across different platformsover the air, streamed on demand,
all these things, how do youget a true read on who caught the
ads?
Big.
So that's a part of the planfor the future, is to move towards
that.
And we're making progress.
(08:13):
It takes a while to turn anaircraft carrier, Nielsen's an aircraft
carrier, but we're workingtowards it.
We're working towards it.
Any kind of ETA and when thatmight be, I mean, we're looking like
five years or 25 years.
What are you thinking?
Yeah, not 25 years.
And I can tell you thatNielsen's already made a ton of progress
on the video side becausethat's the core of Nielsen's business.
(08:34):
Audio isn't really importantpart, but, you know, the core of
Nielsen's business is TV ratings.
And so, you know, we alreadyhave in the marketplace multiple
products that do some of whatI'm talking about, this Nielsen One
project is in the process ofrolling out in some ways in video,
and that's been five or sixyears of development to get it to
this point.
So, you know, we're still inthe implementation and planning stage
(08:58):
for audio.
It's not going to be 25 years,but it's not ready yet.
So in the meantime, where canwe make a difference?
How can we bring in the bestavailable data?
That's how Nielsen thinks ofit, is like, this is currently our
best available data.
And then in the future, wemight have something better.
But for now, let's give theindustry the best that we have.
Right.
But with all of these variousmetrics now.
(09:21):
And of course, if somebodydoes see, for example, a Yellowstone
spot, like on their phone andon tv, that would count as two impressions
still, because they're seeingit twice.
Right.
Well, it's also so complicatedbecause there's no guarantee it's
the same ad either.
That's where this gets so muchmore complicated.
Think about, like, programmatic.
(09:41):
Right?
Okay.
Think about how you get servedthings right.
You get served an ad based onthe device you're on based on your
geography.
So it is infinitely morecomplicated than it ever used to
be.
So again, Nielsen's hard towork writing all the code to figure
that out and using AI to help us.
But yeah, it is.
It is not as simple as just aone to one.
You were on the TV show, thisspot aired, everyone must have seen
(10:03):
it.
It's not that simple anymore.
So.
So shifting gears back toaudio, is AI somehow also being used
on the station side or on yourcustomer side to kind of siphon?
Like back when I was doingstation side PPM analysis, you know,
(10:24):
we'd go through, you know,minute by minute and see which things
were working and calendaringout stuff and seeing where the hotspots
were weak spots.
Is AI being implemented byanybody right now?
Are there any smart peoplethat are doing interesting things?
Are there any devices, arethere any software programs, kind
(10:46):
of like we used to have theprogrammers package back in the day?
Any AI tools like that thatbeing thought of or in development?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I can tell you we use AIinternally at Nielsen, like everybody
does, to help us be better andmore efficient, help us crunch data,
help us solve more complex problems.
(11:07):
So like the rest of the world,we're certainly using it.
It's our methodology.
And what we do is still verymuch based on the judgment of all
the people that have workedhere all these years.
But I can tell you, but yes,there are consultants out there in
the industry that areabsolutely using AI to do the things
you just mentioned, to crunchminute by minute PPM data, to look
(11:28):
at exposures, to look atattribution features.
So, sure, it's all happeningout there.
Again, we're trying to use it.
I can only answer, really,from Nielsen, but I know that we're
using it to make things easierand to be more efficient, to do less
with more.
Right.
Especially when it comes tocrunching big data.
So that's how we use it.
What advice do you have, John,for station people, radio people,
(11:50):
to effectively prepare for theshifts and measurement and make the
most out of all these greattools you're talking about?
Sure.
Well, I always start bytalking about the importance of local
audio, local radio, and justhow unique that is, which is why
radio continues to persist assuch an important part of the audio
landscape.
(12:11):
You know, you made a fewcomments about TV and we had a laugh
earlier.
You know, but think about howmuch like broadcast TV ratings have
changed outside of, and howoutside of sports, it is a totally
different ball game.
So radio in a way is in a muchBetter place because radio still
(12:33):
offers stuff you cannot getanywhere else.
The local connection.
I mean, think about localsports talk radio.
I don't think that will evergo away.
I think that will always bearound in some way, shape or form
because there's nowhere elsethat offers that kind of community.
And so you can expand thatexample out to all of radio.
So I just want to remindeveryone to keep making sure you
do that.
(12:53):
Like, yes, you should payattention to competition.
Yes, you should pay attentionto what everyone else is doing and
how audio is used.
But don't try to be whatSpotify is.
Be radio.
You know, be what radio is andoffer the things that only radio
has.
So that said in the diarymarkets, we are seeing our response
rates get better, we areseeing our compliance rates get better,
(13:15):
which is great.
That's what we're paid to do.
That's why people play Nielsen.
A lot of money is to get goodsamples coming in the second half
of 2025.
We're gonna, we're gonna rollout the mobile survey option, which
will be great.
Again, you know, we're notlooking to impact the data, we're
looking to impact the sampleand make sure that we have as robust
a sample as possible in PPM markets.
(13:37):
We have a whole other prioritygoing on.
You might have heard aboutthis recently called the three minute
qualifier.
And that's a change we'remaking starting in January where
we are adjusting the creditingrule for what it takes to be counted
as a listener and therefore anadvertising impression for radio.
And to sum it up, we're goingto be changing that rule and as a
result, we're going to seemore audience on radio stations,
(13:59):
service level wide.
So we expect average audienceto be increasing around 20% by making
this change.
And so that's going to be great.
It's going to look great yearover year.
So, you know, we're upgradingthe measurement to be more timely.
And then again, we have to goback to what I said earlier, continue
doing what you can to makeradio a daily destination.
Right.
You've got a lot ofcompetition on a daily basis, give
(14:22):
people reasons to keep comingback every day.
And that's something radio hasdone for years.
So, John, for the people whomay not yet be read in on the three
minute rule, should youexplain the difference between that
and the old five minute way weused to look at things?
Yes, absolutely.
So through a lot ofconversations with our clients and
with the industry, our clientshave been saying to us, is there
(14:42):
a way to improve the crediting Rules.
And if you think about it, youknow, someone today could see a video
ad on TikTok and they could beon that ad for two or three seconds
and be counted as animpression, right?
Things have changed sodramatically with digital, with mobile
and radio requires fiveminutes of listening inside a quarter
(15:07):
hour, inside a 15 minute blockto be counted as a listener.
So in PPM markets we know,because it's so granular that there's
a significant amount oflistening that takes place that is
not five minutes long.
So what we decided to do afterlooking at the data and talking with
our clients and talking withthe industry is we decided to change
the rule from five minutes oflistening in a quarter hour to down
(15:27):
to three.
And just by doing that, we'reexpecting about a 20% increase in
audience levels at the servicelevel, meaning across PPM, you should
see about 20% more audiencenow by changing that rule.
Because what you're doing isyou're capturing listening that is
there, that is meaningful,that is happening, but isn't currently
being credited.
You might listen for three minutes.
By the way, most songs areabout three minutes long, right?
(15:51):
So you might have a threeminute occasion.
And in the current rules, thatdoesn't get counted.
So by changing that rule, bytweaking it from five minutes down
to three, we're going toincrease audience, we're going to
capture more impressions.
That's the real reason why wedid this, right, is to give advertisers
more impressions to countagainst their ads.
But that's really the basis of it.
By making this small change,which makes sense, which modernizes
(16:14):
radio measurement in today'sdigital age, we're not going to go
to second level stuff orminute level stuff.
But this gets us closer.
As I said, you could see avideo ad for a couple seconds and
count as an impression andradio takes five minutes of listening.
So we wanted to update thatand make it a little bit more modern
and we think the results aregoing to be great.
Wow.
Yeah.
(16:34):
That's incredible.
And in Diary, we're not makingthis change.
It's still five minutes in Diary.
I'm sure people listen forthree minutes in Diary, but they
don't write that down.
Diary is a recall based systemand human beings don't usually recall
really short occasions of anything.
We tend to record it in longer blocks.
So we don't have motivation todo this in the diary.
(16:55):
The diary's, you know, doingits job.
It's getting listening for us.
As I said, we're modernizingthe tool, but we're not making this
change in diary because a verysmall amount of the occasions we
capture are less than fiveminutes long in a diary.
Nielsen's John Miller.
Hey, know someone who weshould interview or a topic we ought
to cover?
Well, let us know.
Email your suggestions toshow@brandwithondemand.com or reach
(17:21):
out on social BrandWithPlus onInstagram, Facebook and X.
That's BrandWithPlus.
BrandWithPlus.
Hey, are you feeling just alittle bit better informed now that
you've heard John tell uswhat's going on with Nielsen?
Well, if so, please pass it onto somebody else who could also use
(17:41):
a boost in the ratings and thecareer department.
Just tell them, hit the follow button.
We're everywhere.
Brown with On Demand.
Coming up, Nielsen's JohnMiller shares something that could
help your ratings tomorrow,and it might be hiding in plain sight.
Yeah, we have a lot going on,multiple stations and formats.
(18:04):
We really need to bundle them all.
Yeah, that sounds really good.
Who are you talking to?
Yeah, I'd like that.
It's Dave from Music Master.
Dave from Music Master at twoin the morning?
Who is this?
I told you, it's Dave fromMusic Master.
Dave from Music Master, huh?
What are you wearing?
Huh?
Khakis from the industry'sbest music scheduling software, Nexus
(18:26):
integration, client server,and yes, 247 support.
Just like your favoriteneighbor, Music Master.
Is theredetails@musicmaster.com opportunities
hidden in plain sight.
Plain Sight.
With On Demand, we're withNielsen's John Miller.
John, what's the oneopportunity for radio stations that
(18:48):
you feel may be hiding inplain sight?
That's a great question.
I might default to something Isaid earlier, which is the local
nature of what radio does,because that is truly.
That is truly how radio stands out.
Sure, there might be betteralgorithms out there on Spotify or
(19:09):
other places, and sure,podcasts are amazing and give you
access to things you can't getanywhere else.
But the local nature of radio,the local community, the ability
to connect with people in thecommunity and serve them in addition
to the music, that I think isthe key.
And I think as long as radiokeeps that in its sights and doesn't
(19:29):
get too far away from thatkind of local edict, I think radio
will be just fine, becausethat's what is the lifeblood of radio,
despite all the other thingsthat are out there.
That's why radio is stillcommanding such a huge share of people's
time, because we can get themusic anywhere, but we also want
that local connection.
So I think that's really the key.
(19:51):
John Miller hey, we've gotlinks to all kinds of great stuff
from John and others.
Ed Nielsen there's more all inthe show notes.
Just scroll down on your phone.
So if you if you're new to.
The podcast, well, that'sreally great too.
Awesome.
Just don't forget to smash thefollow button on your favorite podcast
app.
And if you've been with us fora while, please spread the love.
(20:12):
Tell a friend Brand with On Demand.
We're available whereverbetter podcasts are found.
And with over 200 episodes,we're here to help you master the
art of audio like a pro.
And coming up next, think your show's.
Good enough as is Cool.
But do you want real growth,more listeners, better engagement,
(20:34):
the whole deal.
Hi, I'm Hannah B.
And Todd Webster gets it.
He's the mind behind sound profitable.
Helps Spotify, SiriusXM andNPR level up.
And his new book, the Audienceis Listening breaks it all down.
Why trust is the secret sauceand how to actually earn it.
That's next time.
(20:55):
That's a wrap.
Kipper.
As is often said, readers are leaders.
We've got something you shouldbe reading.
Oh, you'll find it in one minute.
Martinizing.
It's in the shownotes@brandwithondemand.com I'm Dave
Martin.
And I'm Kipper McGee.
May all your brand with be wide.
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