November 11, 2024 • 46 mins
Join us as we welcome Bernadette McClelland, ranked one of the Top 35 Women in Sales Globally by Sales Hacker, Tony Robbins collaborator and author of six books on sales and leadership including most recently 'SHIFT and DISRUPT: Stop Selling Widgets. Start Selling Wisdom'.
Episode Overview:
Bernadette McClelland’s journey is one of resilience, courage, and reinvention. From a successful corporate career with Xerox to a life-altering personal and financial setback, Bernadette’s story is both inspiring and instructive. In this episode, she shares how she turned adversity into an opportunity for growth, becoming an accomplished speaker, author, and coach. We dive into her experiences, including the turning point that led her to embrace “deliberate disruption” as a philosophy, and her mission to guide others through challenges.
Key Discussion Points:
1. The courage it took to leave a secure corporate career at Xerox and step into the world of entrepreneurship.
2. How a devastating injury led to financial loss and a complete restart, and what it took to bounce back.
3. Embracing the concept of "deliberate disruption" as a guiding principle for overcoming life's biggest challenges.
4. The lessons learned from trusting the wrong people and finding clarity through difficult times.
5. Insights from working with Tony Robbins and other prominent figures on building resilience.
6. The transformative experience of mentoring incarcerated individuals as they prepare for re-entry.
7. The power of reinvention and staying aligned with your core values through tough times.
8. Bernadette’s latest focus on leadership through her upcoming book, The Rise of The Disruptive Leader.
9. Advice on how to find purpose, even when it feels like everything is falling apart.
10. A lighter look into Bernadette’s love for adventure and the unique travel experiences that have shaped her outlook.
Quotable Moments:
- “Bouncing back is not enough; sometimes you need to deliberately disrupt to find a new path forward.”
- “Courage isn’t the absence of fear; it’s the willingness to move forward despite it.”
- “The most powerful transformations happen when we embrace the discomfort of change.”
Connect with Bernadette:
- Website: [bernadettemcclelland.com](https://bernadettemcclelland.com)
- LinkedIn: [Bernadette McClelland](https://www.linkedin.com/in/bernadettemcclelland)
Listener Engagement:
We’re eager to hear your thoughts on Bernadette’s philosophy of “deliberate disruption” and how it resonates with your own journey. Share your takeaways and stories of courage in the comments!
Disclaimer:
The views expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the Braving Business Podcast or its hosts.
Remember to subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Stay brave!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey there, I'm Tals Lotnitsky from Ignite IT Consulting.
(00:05):
You know me from the Braving Business podcast, but when I'm not behind the mic, I'm helping
tech startups and established companies ignite their full potential.
I also help entrepreneurs and businesses in distress reset for success.
With over three decades of entrepreneurial success, I bring hands-on experience to drive
growth, navigate turnarounds, raise capital, and lead to innovation.
(00:28):
Whether it's executive coaching or strategic transformation, I'm here to turn your business
challenges into success stories.
Visit igniteitconsulting.com and let's spark that change together.
That's igniteitconsulting.com.
Your journey to business brilliance starts now.
And one last quick thing.
(00:49):
If you enjoyed this episode, please stay on after the show to learn more about the Braving
Business podcast and other great episodes for you to discover.
And now, let's get the show started.
(01:13):
Well hello there.
Hello there and happy election day, sir.
Happy election day, my friend.
How are you, buddy?
I am well.
I'm a little nervous.
I just hope, you know, we Americans remember what unites us today.
That's my hope.
That's my dream.
That's my aspiration.
A thousand percent, buddy.
Yeah, I really hope.
I think the entire nation is a little nervous.
(01:34):
Yeah.
So yeah.
The entire world, PJ, is a little nervous, I would say.
That's so true.
Bernadette, you talk to a lot of people overseas, I'm sure still, a lot of family and friends
over there.
What is, are people nervous or are they just kind of watching what happens today with,
you know, great interest?
Oh, definitely great interest.
(01:56):
A definitely great interest.
And I think, yeah, I think a little nervous as well.
Lots of different reasons.
Yeah, lots of different reasons.
Yes, so true.
Yeah, well, we agree with that, but we are a business podcast, PJ.
So let us pivot.
Maybe we should introduce our lovely guests.
(02:17):
We will.
I just want to say.
And talk about what unites people, which is making money.
That is true.
And also living a life worth living.
So we are about both those things in the Braving Business Podcast.
We most certainly are.
So let's learn a little bit more about the wonderful guest we have today, Ms. Bernadette
McClelland.
Her life is an inspiring testament to courage, resilience, and the power of choice.
(02:41):
Once a top executive at Xerox, she ventured into entrepreneurship only to uncover, or
sorry, encounter profound highs and lows, including a life altering injury that nearly
destroyed her business and led to financial loss.
But Bernadette's response was anything but ordinary.
She reinvented herself, crossed the ocean late in life, and moved to the United States,
(03:02):
and then became a top sales coach, speaker, and author of six books, including The Art
of Commercial Conversations and The Soul Driven Salesman.
With her keynote, Deliberate Disruption, The Courage of Conviction and Action, Bernadette
has spoken globally on what it takes to rebuild and thrive.
Now based in beautiful and I think snowy Colorado, she also mentors incarcerated individuals
(03:27):
preparing for reentry into the world, embodying her philosophy of courage and second chances.
Bernadette joins us to share her journey, insights, and the essential lessons of daring
disruption.
And we are very honored to have her with us today.
So Bernadette, welcome and thank you so much for joining us on the Braving Business Podcast.
Oh, thank you so much, PJ and Tal.
(03:49):
It's great to be here and yeah, it's a topic very close to my heart.
Yeah, sounds great.
And you know, we were happy to have your team reach out to us about you being a guest.
I actually have one of your books and I've spent most of my career in sales.
And I do think that commercial conversations is an art.
And much of what you stand for resonates with me.
(04:10):
So I'm looking forward to having the audience hearing about it.
But let's start from the beginning you had and at the beginning, I don't mean childhood.
Let's talk about your choice to leave an impressive career with Xerox and step into entrepreneurship.
What was it that inspired you to leave the corporate world?
And how did your early experiences with entrepreneurship shape your mindset about business?
(04:31):
Oh, gosh, you know, I'd been at Xerox for 20 years.
So I was a veteran.
I'd come up through the ranks from admin through secretarial days back when they had typewriters
and used to do the sales guys commissions.
And I remember looking at this one end of month and looking at the amount of money that
had been made by the caliber of person that had actually made it.
(04:54):
And I thought, wow, if he can do it, I can do it.
But they said that I was too nice, didn't have what it took, wasn't aggressive enough.
And that was back in the 80s.
And I kind of proved them wrong.
And they gave me the traineeship.
And 20 years later, I left as one of the senior sales leaders and sales specialists at Xerox.
(05:17):
But what made me leave, I guess, was probably a naivety, but I had wanted to become a motivational
speaker.
And so I kind of took that path.
But it lasted two years.
Limiting beliefs got in the way.
So yeah, that kind of led me down a path of retail, when my husband and I bought a retail
(05:44):
outlet in country town.
And then that kind of led to wholesale and then led to importing.
And so we built a business that went from in the bricks and mortar world.
And that kind of is where life started to take a turn.
Sure.
So and what you are already saying resonates really well with me, because I've been in
(06:09):
sales my entire career as well.
So I am definitely looking to delve into all of this with you.
But you just mentioned limiting beliefs.
Is that imposter syndrome?
Well, I didn't think I had what it took.
And we're talking here pre-internet almost.
(06:31):
Like I mean, the internet was there, but it was very, and so social media wasn't there.
So the ability to market yourself wasn't there as much as it is today.
But I did start running my own breakfasts, you know, like bringing people in.
And it was this one particular breakfast.
It was early in the morning, I had a room filled with people.
(06:54):
It was about 45 people in the room, business leaders.
$95.
I remember this.
$95 a head they paid and we're talking like 2000, like 2001, that long ago.
And so the hour, I'd spoken for the typical hour and I looked down, reached for my water
(07:15):
bottle, my husband's watch was next to my glass of water.
And I noticed it had only been half an hour.
And the self-talk, these guys have paid so much money.
Oh my God, they're going to think you've ripped them off.
You know, con artists, all this self-talk was going through my head.
And so I started to pad out another half an hour and recap and try to give them more value.
(07:38):
And you could feel the energy in the room was dropping.
And my husband was at the back of the room and he was like, wind it up, wind it up.
His watch had stopped.
Oh my gosh.
I cried all the way back home to the country town we lived in for like an hour and a half's
(08:00):
drive.
And that was it.
I walked away from speaking for 10 years.
I walked away completely because I didn't believe I had what it took.
So that was a, yeah, that was kind of like a huge thing.
So there's so much there to unpack.
I'm going to try to do that and not filibuster because I think that the first experience
(08:27):
you had in the entrepreneurial world is probably one that almost everyone that is stepping
into entrepreneurship feels, which is, can I measure up?
Am I capable of doing what it is that I'm telling people I can do?
Or am I selling them some BS and I'm going to be exposed?
So it's a little bit of imposter syndrome, but it's more than that.
It's doubting your own abilities, not only thinking you're not necessarily from a place
(08:51):
of I'm not a person who is qualified to talk about this topic or provide this service,
but more from a place of I am not capable of succeeding in this.
So that limiting belief is the self-talk that we engage in oftentimes from a place of fear
and shame that we ourselves don't fully understand.
(09:15):
We don't even completely grasp where it's coming from.
How would you respond to that, Bernadette?
I totally agree.
I totally agree.
And I love the fact that you said sometimes we don't even know where it's coming from
because we can't quite wrap our hands or our thoughts around it and we will dress it up,
(09:36):
however we want to dress it up.
So clearly that day, all that happened was a watch had stopped.
And yet I had made such a story in my head about it that I chose not to do it any longer,
even though I loved doing it and I was good at it.
(09:56):
So what was it that really prevented me from going back?
And that's a question that probably needed so many layers peeled back at the time.
This probably took years for me to actually kind of come to grips with that.
But at the time, I was not able to answer that question.
(10:24):
So I think you're right there.
So I have a quick question.
You're touching something that I think, just like Carl said, a lot of entrepreneurs have
gone through.
As you were talking, I'm like, wow, I've done a lot of speaking.
I've failed miserably on a lot.
(10:46):
I've done great on a lot.
But I clearly remember you instantly brought me back to when I was in front of Shark Tank.
And there was a point where I lost my spot in my pitch and then the desperation inside
my head to try to get back to where I was, to find where I was in the pitch mentally.
(11:10):
And then all the self-talk, right?
Like you're blowing it.
This is terrible.
Say goodbye to your future.
Like everything.
And I could totally understand why it took you a while, like 10 years, not to go back
to it because it's a very wounding experience.
(11:31):
And it can be very devastating in a lot of ways.
And for me, that was the darkest night I've ever had.
So how did you do your own self-care to get you through that?
Like, go ahead, I'm sorry.
Yeah, no, life took a totally different track.
(11:54):
So we ended up buying a retail outlet.
And so I ended up putting all my strengths and my skill sets into running a business.
And so we had staff, we had stock, we expanded our business, we started wholesaling nationally
in Australia, and we started importing.
(12:17):
And so that then led to me actually having a forklift accident, which did tissue damage
to my shin.
Well, they put me on penicillin, but the penicillin shut my liver down.
And so my liver was, whether you want to say I was kind of over-prescribed or what, I don't
(12:40):
know, but for all of 2009, I was bedridden.
And so my husband and I were now in the business.
And of course, when I don't know if you've read the E-Myths, but when the person running
the business is no longer there, the business fails if it's not set up correctly, for all
(13:00):
of those different reasons.
And so we had to liquidate.
We lost houses, we lost everything.
And we were on welfare.
And so that was at the end of 2009.
And then coming out of that was a huge shift.
And that is where, when you learn to reframe, and that's where I think resilience, we talk
(13:29):
about resilience, but I think it's more than resilience.
It's going beyond resilience.
So what do you mean by that?
It's going beyond resilience, and it's interesting because one of the things you said in the
pre-interview is you mentioned that bouncing back isn't enough and you advocate for something
you call deliberate disruption.
Help us understand what that means and how it applies to the situation you found yourself
(13:51):
in.
And hindsight is always a wonderful thing.
And people process things differently.
Resilience is being able to cope.
When you're resilient, you're able to cope with chaos.
(14:13):
You're able to cope with calm.
And people say, great, let's bounce back.
You're able to bounce back.
But my whole philosophy is I don't want to bounce back to where I came from.
I want what I've been through to actually take me up, spiral me up and onwards.
(14:40):
Not even just bouncing forward, but going up and onwards.
And there's a book written by a guy called Nassim Nicholas Taleb called Anti-Fragile.
And anti-fragile is the complete opposite to fragile.
Most people think resilience is.
But anti-fragile is where you actually become stronger as a result of coming through a black
(15:04):
swan moment.
And so this is where I say deliberate disruption is where if you're able to deliberately disrupt
the way that you think, feel and act, we all have to be able to do that.
Because if we don't, something or someone else will typically do it to us or for us.
(15:30):
So it's having this mindset of saying, OK, it is what it is.
But I was physically incapacitated.
We were on welfare.
We had no money to our name.
It is what it is.
And we can cry.
(15:51):
We can do all of those emotions.
It can be OK with your emotions, definitely.
But it is what it is.
So you can either voluntarily surrender to the fact that it is what it is and move on
and do something about it.
And if you don't, then you go in a different direction.
But we have a choice.
(16:12):
And I suppose that's where I'm coming from with deliberately disrupting the way that
we think, feel and act.
I love this.
I love it.
It's the ownership of taking the event and using it as a positive motivator instead of
a woe is me.
So that's really awesome.
(16:33):
So we understand that you have worked with Tony Robbins in the past, other high profile
names, people that really command the stage.
What is it like to help others build this resilience, build this spiraling up and the
ownership of these issues?
(16:54):
What's it like to help others build that muscle while you're dealing with your own struggles?
Well, I think the big thing, take for example, all of us have the voices in our head that
we spoke about earlier about, I don't have what it takes.
(17:16):
I'm just going to walk away from doing what I love.
I just don't have what it takes.
We've all got those voices, but when you can flip it and when you can shift, and we'll
all have one statement or one question that we will ask all through our lives across just
(17:37):
about every context, whether it's sport, relationships, business, there will be one thing that's one
sound bite that is constant.
And if you think about that sound bite, it's typically focused on you and it's typically
focused on the past.
(17:59):
If you can flip it and focus it on other people and focus it on the future, it shifts things.
So what I mean by that is I have now recognized that I do have gifts, we all do, but I've
now owned those gifts.
I now own those gifts.
(18:21):
And so how can I take my gifts and share those gifts out there in the world to make a difference
with other people?
And when you can think that way, it's like what you focus on, you know, it's like you
(18:42):
now know that you are making a difference and that lights you up.
So let's break that down a bit because I think that, you know, especially as we reach the
point in our careers where we have perhaps started the second backside of our careers,
(19:04):
right, PJ and I are there as well.
There is a turning point where you no longer think strictly about, you know, bottom line
or your own self aggrandizement or, you know, how even how well you're doing necessarily.
(19:27):
I mean, you obviously we all care about how well we're doing and we start thinking about
our legacy.
And it's especially true if you've accomplished some things in your life and the people that
listen to the show for the most part are people that have accomplished things in their lives.
Some of them are rebuilding because accomplishment doesn't mean it doesn't guarantee you ongoing
(19:47):
success.
We've had many people, I'm one of them, PJ is one of them, that have reached, you know,
high highs and then had low lows and had to rebuild and you're right there with us.
How do you manage to continue to focus your attention on other people at a time when for
(20:08):
you having reached, you know, in 2009, not that long ago, essentially starting over again,
right now financially, how do you balance the fact that you're on the side of your career
where your mindset is about leaving a legacy, you understand the benefits of leading in
(20:28):
that way and you also have the reality of, man, I have a living I got to make.
I have goals I've got to meet.
Talk to me about that balance because I feel that that's a balance a lot of people shy away
from talking about.
Is there a balance?
You know, I think, oh, that's a really good question.
(20:54):
You've got to love what you do.
Okay.
So you've got to love what you do.
So yeah, okay.
So I've had a sales leadership consultancy for a number of years now and I was coming
over to America.
I managed to score a green card.
My husband got one for carrying my bags.
So we're here with, you know, we've got social security number, we're a green card, we've
(21:19):
got no tourist visa or anything like that.
And so two and a half years we've been here and the joy of doing sales training has kind
of been gone for about 18 months.
So about six months ago, I shared with my husband and that husband wife conversation
(21:42):
where I looked at him and said, what's that look for?
And he said to me, and we don't argue very much at all.
And he said, honey, we came to America so you could do speaking.
I don't know why you're resisting it.
And I said, because training brings the money in.
(22:04):
He said, you're not happy.
Don't worry about the money.
Now we need money.
Do not get me wrong with you.
Don't worry about the money.
He said, I want to see you happy.
So the path is a longer one, but I'm doing what I love.
(22:24):
And it's, I'm meeting different people.
I'm doing different things.
And I guess at the end of the day, you're talking legacy.
We have two adult kids in Australia, three little granddaughters under three.
We want to be role models as well for our kids and our grandkids.
So it's not always about the money.
(22:48):
It is, but it's not.
It's also about being happy.
And if you can get that balance, and I know you mentioned before about me volunteering
with the state penitentiary, that fills my cup.
So it swings and roundabouts.
(23:08):
But yeah, sometimes it's just having the bravery to call it.
That's awesome.
And I'm going to ask you to say a few words to your husband.
I know.
I know.
It's, it's having, having the right partner by your side is it's a night and day.
It's a night and day difference.
(23:28):
When, when you, as an entrepreneur are facing the challenges of entrepreneurship, we all
face them.
They could be large.
They could be small, but having the right sounding board and the right person there
by your side, whether to lift you up or prod you along or pull you back at the right time
(23:50):
is just so wonderful.
So for all, for all of our entrepreneurs who are listening out there, I hope that they
have that, that same type of companionship.
It's wonderful.
I agree.
So you know, you just mentioned filling your cup and working with, with those that have
have been in the penal system and they're trying to get out and, and make a positive
(24:14):
impact on society.
So working with them through the breakthrough program, as it's called, is a unique and
I'm sure as you kind of shared a very impactive or impactful endeavor.
How has this work affected you personally and shaped your philosophy on resilience?
Um, hugely actually, so, um, the, the breakthrough group is a nonprofit here in Colorado and
(24:40):
they've been going for about five or six years.
Um, and so, um, I'm, I'm just started my third cohort.
So some of these guys will never get out.
Um, so they're, they're high security, um, and a couple of them are minimum security.
So they are on their way out, but going inside the walls and, um, and getting to know them
(25:08):
at such a vulnerable, in such a vulnerable, um, setting where you're working with them
on their personal transformation and their entrepreneurial mindset.
So some of them are, you know, looking at reentry.
And so we're not talking about them becoming entrepreneurs.
Some might, but it's, it's that problem solving.
They will become employees.
(25:30):
So how can they think like employers so that they can be better employees?
Um, but the whole personal transformation part of it, where we can sit and talk about
things like forgiveness and resilience and, um, vulnerability and, um, their lifestyles
and how they've grown up and there's different empathy exercises that we do.
(25:52):
It's just completely, um, the completely transformed the way I, a look at, um, unconscious bias.
Um, and also, um, when you think about the fact that recidivism is usually nearly 50%,
but through this program, it's 6%.
Um, and you look at the power of this type of soft skill, um, rolling out soft skills
(26:21):
such as this, imagine the impact it can have on a corporation or a team when it comes to
productivity or profitability or, or, you know, staff retention or something like that.
Um, it's powerful.
So that for me is proof.
Um, but it's also just, you know, my colleagues that I work with, um, bad justice impacted.
(26:44):
So they have been in the system as well and, uh, are out.
So it's interesting.
My grandfather, uh, who my son is named after, he actually worked in the penal system his
entire life and he, he was a shoemaker, my grandfather, and he taught inmates how to
make shoes.
Uh, you know, at the time it was a, you know, profession that they could potentially earn
(27:07):
a living and earn some self-respect, uh, you know, uh, out, out in the real world.
And, uh, and he often talked about how the degree of resilience, uh, that, that, and
he worked with men that these men had, uh, was inspiring to him.
It was, it was almost incredible.
The degree of pain, many of them had gone through and, you know, obviously, uh, there's
(27:34):
oftentimes tremendous trauma that leads people to perform, uh, less well academically and
then it leads them to outcomes that are not desirable.
Let's just put it that way.
And they find themselves where they find themselves and they have two options.
One is to wallow in self-pity or, or, or in anger.
And the other is to hold themselves up.
(27:55):
And he was, he often spoke about how many of them, um, were able to do that in ways
that actually inspired him.
He'd go home and feel inspired.
I totally agree.
I go home totally.
It's an hour and a half drive and I'm totally inspired.
Totally.
And we've got guys there that, um, the thing is we're all the same because it's, it's a
(28:20):
decision, it's a timing, it's a split second that, that could mean any one of the volunteers
could be inside.
You know, it's just bad luck in some instances.
Some of them are innocent.
One guy's just been out after 23 years.
He voted today for the first time, 23 years out on the innocence project.
Um, you know, so it's, and then he's one of, one of the volunteers, he's actually on staff
(28:46):
with breakthrough.
So it's, um, they inspire us.
Um,
And you know, one thing that has, a lot of these people have in common is they trusted
the wrong person or the wrong people.
And that, uh, is another thing you speak of.
I know that, you know, you feel that trusting the wrong people and lack of clarity, you
know, are challenges you face personally in your life.
(29:06):
Uh, tell me, what did these experiences teach you about discernment and setting boundaries
in business and in life?
Um, so there's kind of two sides to the coin here, isn't there for me personally, I'm very
trusting.
Um, and then I'm not trusting.
So it's kind of, it's kind of like, Hmm, okay.
(29:28):
I get, can't have been burnt that way.
And I've been, you know, I'm probably not doing the right thing.
I'm not fair enough, you know, being fair enough to the other person in this way.
So, um, it's just a juggling act for me.
Um, but we have, yeah, my husband and I, we've been hurt through our process, um, where we
have trusted people and I'm talking accountants here, I'm talking family members.
(29:52):
Um, and then, you know, as a result, you don't trust people and really you learn, um, to
be forgiving and you learn that they are actually the people that you can trust.
So it's really getting out of your head and thinking, okay, let's just have a little bit
of self-awareness here.
Let's just have a little bit of emotional intelligence here and think what really have
(30:15):
they done?
Uh, or is it just your unconscious bias?
Is it just your fear?
Let's just give them, give them some, give them a little bit.
Um, and, and there's really nothing for you to be worried about.
Nice.
That's awesome.
So, um, going back to the ownership of the event and how you react moving forward with
(30:42):
the launch of the rise of the disruptive leader, you're focused on leadership through, through
this disruption.
Why is this concept important and how do you feel that it applies to today's business world?
Yeah, really good question.
In fact, um, in my role in sales leadership through my consultancy, what I found was,
(31:12):
um, so two parts to this.
So what I found was that when working with or when approaching sales leaders, um, to
work with their teams, a number of leaders would not make decisions.
(31:34):
A number of leaders would not want help.
A number of leaders, especially in our field, it's not just with me, uh, would put, uh,
sales trainers or consultants at arm's length, uh, for lots of different reasons.
Number one is they would not want to put their hand up to let above leadership above know
(31:58):
that they needed help.
Um, they wouldn't, they wouldn't want others to think that they weren't capable.
Um, others would be, you know what, I'm, I'm, I'm retiring next year.
Why would I want to rock the boat?
Um, and so all these different objections, if you like, for one of a better word for
(32:22):
us, I mean, we've all been in sales, um, that were blocking the opportunity for the sales
people to have some form of growth, to help that business sell more.
Um, and so now, so that's one part of it, just from purely from a, um, I guess, anecdotal
(32:43):
perspective, from an empirical perspective.
Um, and we're now looking at, at data, uh, companies today, and we're like businesses
globally, um, are now saying that their bench for leadership is there, their companies are
(33:06):
saying that it's like 12% is what they're saying their trust in their benches, their
leadership bench for lots of different reasons.
One is leaders are exhausted today, completely exhausted.
Um, we've got leaders who are not able to make decisions.
(33:27):
Um, we've got toxic cultures.
Trust is at an all time low for senior leaders from staff, from employees.
So we've got all of this happening because we are in this world today that is just the,
the economy now is referred to as a BANI economy, brittle, anxious, nonlinear and incomprehensible,
(33:53):
which means basically it's resilience is needed.
But you know, when we're talking resilience, yeah, just to survive.
Sure.
Absolutely.
But it's also important to be really present because anxiety and stress is at an all time
high.
Um, agility and adaptability and flexibility and all those words are, you know, there's
(34:14):
no logic.
There's no culling outside the, you know, no kind of, what's the phrase I'm trying to
think of?
The lines.
Yeah, the lines.
Um, and there's so much information, how do we make sense out of it?
So I want to ask you, I, you know, in general, uh, people that work with me know that I am
(34:40):
not a fan of the word disruptive or disruption because I think it's trite.
I think it's misused or abused.
Tell me why I'm wrong about that or why I should take a fresh look at disruption.
It's really interesting because I had gone and, um, created a model and looked at, um,
(35:01):
the disruptive leader and I was getting a little bit of pushback for probably that same
reason.
And I thought about it and I thought, Oh, you know what?
Do I change it to self disruptive rather than disruptive?
(35:22):
And I, what is the difference?
Exactly.
Uh, and I did for a split second and I, the reason I did was because self disruptive brings
it right back to that leader disrupting themselves the way they think, feel and act, which is
cool.
(35:42):
And then I thought about it and I thought, no, no, no, no, there's more to it than that.
In my, in my opinion, in my opinion, there's more to it because leadership today is more
than just disrupting how the leader thinks, feels and acts.
It's actually leaving.
We're talking about leaving a legacy.
(36:05):
Leadership today needs to do more than just manage.
They have to actually inspire and they have to, it's not even motivate because the word
motivate means a motive for action.
And if you have to motivate your team, if you have to give them a motive for action,
a reason to act, then what you need to do is inspire them and inspire means to breathe
(36:33):
life into something.
So a leader today needs to really transform.
And in my opinion, to do that is more than just hold them accountable, is to actually
help them think differently.
And how do you do that?
Innovatively, yes, but bring ideas in, bring story in, bring thought leadership in.
(36:58):
How do you help them think differently and think deeply?
How do you do that?
And how do you give them the ideas or the frameworks to do that?
And if it's a sales team, how do you, how do you give them, what are the tools that
you actually give them to go out to market and have these different conversations in
(37:21):
front of a buyer that is totally not just about product?
It makes perfect, when you lay it out like that, it makes perfect sense.
And I think it's something that a lot of people can kind of, you know, coddle up next to,
(37:43):
right?
Like they can get it.
You need to get my other book, Shift and Disrupt, Stop Selling Widgets, Start Selling Wisdom,
because in that, I break it all out with thought leadership and mental models and things like
that.
So do you feel, and I'm a little bit less of a, I'm a little bit harder to convince
than PJ.
(38:04):
Help me understand how this idea applies in professions that aren't white collar or aren't
sales.
We're really strictly talking about in sales professions.
Doesn't matter what you're selling.
Does it apply in all industries?
And I know I'll just hit you with three questions, but they're all around the concept of this
makes sense if you're selling high end, you know, things to big clients.
(38:28):
Does it make sense when you're, I don't know, selling tires to consumers?
It definitely does.
If you, well, okay.
No, not be, well.
Actually look, I'm getting quite twitchy here because the reason being is, okay.
(38:49):
I'm thinking of a couple of examples here.
Go for it.
Just a couple of examples.
So I'm going to bring it back to the prison and we'll go at the prison first.
I could use my husband with an interview, but I'll stick with the prison.
So part of what I'm doing with the guys down there is part of their graduation includes
(39:15):
a pitch competition where they've got to do a picture product and as a group, but initially
it's individual.
And then prior to that, it's getting their resumes and things ready for if they do get
out and they apply for a job, they've got to be ready to have that conversation.
(39:38):
So I'm interviewing one of the guys and I said to him, and I kind of straight cut to
the chase.
You know, they, they're all prepared.
They've got their resume nicely there and like anything they're prepared with the right
words.
So anyway, I sit there and I say to them, so, okay, what do you want this job for?
(40:01):
This particular guy, it was for a, um, uh, a music shop.
He played piano and I said, so why do you want the, you know, why you, why would I hire
you?
And uh, and out came all the magic words and I said, well, stop.
I said, the guy behind you is going to say exactly the same thing.
(40:22):
So why should I hire you?
What makes you different?
Anyway, I pressed the pause button and I said to him, I heard you played the piano and he
said, yes.
And I said, so what about playing the piano is relevant?
Oh no, he was the mechanic is relevant to having a mechanics, getting the job at the
(40:46):
mechanic shop.
And he thought about it.
And he said, dexterity and I've gone right, right down the word piano.
And then he said, then I kept going and I said, so, okay, so tell me what is it about
(41:08):
prison that will help you get the job?
What is it about being in prison that is a benefit?
And so we talked and it was about, um, discipline times, uh, basically he'll be there early,
you know, so that kind of conversation, I said, write down the word prison.
(41:33):
So where we got to was his homework was to think of a third word, beginning with P. So
my point here is a Venn diagram.
So when we're talking thought leadership, okay.
So he can now go into an interview.
(41:53):
He doesn't need to think about anything.
He just needs to think about his three P's and the Venn diagram.
And that is mental.
That's a model.
So that's his model for getting a job.
Now you can see why.
I'm trying to take away, uh, I think the, the point you're making here is that it doesn't
(42:17):
really matter what you do.
And this is your point of view.
I am not necessarily convinced yet, but I hear you.
It doesn't matter what you do.
Uh, there's, there's a way to inspire and there's a way to communicate that's more effective
than other ways.
Um, and that is true whether you're selling, uh, tires or software.
(42:41):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You could bring story in, you could bring strategy and you could bring problem solving
in.
There's, there's just so many different ways, but the leader today can't just sit in the
corner office.
That's where I'm coming from.
And so we're all leaders.
So you don't have to be that leader today, but you do have to be a leader.
(43:06):
Gotcha.
Gotcha.
All right.
So, and thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for, for sharing all that.
Um, let's, okay.
Well, let's end on, on a little bit of a lighter note, uh, from what we understand you are
an avid adventurer at heart from sleeping in castles to tree houses.
(43:30):
What is one memorable experience that left a lasting impression on you for, uh, in your
travel?
What's a memorable experience?
Um, yeah, yeah.
So I think it would have to be, um, it would have to be Niagara falls and all, there was
no room in the inn and we got in about one or two in the mornings, went to Denny's and
(43:55):
everything we could not find a room.
And we slept in the car with our airplane pillow and, uh, it was cold.
I turned the heater on at about 5 AM in the car.
We woke up at about nine 30 quarter to 10, the car still running and there's people around
our windscreen, our, the front of our car.
So we're still in the car park at Niagara falls with the cast still running and we were
(44:19):
asleep and, um, and we had, we had, uh, an audience.
So there's just people watching you guys sleep.
That was, that was the, uh, that was the memorable one, but now there's, there's so many that
was one that just jumped out then.
So yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a pretty lime one, but no, you know what?
What's interesting about that is what jumps out tends to be traumatic.
(44:41):
You know?
Uh, I mean, it could have been great joy and sometimes that's the case.
Um, I think it's interesting.
I think it's, uh, you know, human psychology is a really interesting thing and where our
minds tend to go, um, is an interesting thing.
So no judgment, just very, very interesting that that's the story you chose our guest
today, Bernadette McClelland.
(45:02):
Uh, she is someone that is inspiring.
She's the author of six books.
She is a, uh, a very highly sought after coach and speaker.
Uh, she has a keynote, deliberate disruption, the courage of conviction and action that
I think is very interesting.
And if you're out there, uh, seeking training for your team, uh, or to bring someone in
to speak to your group, uh, I think, uh, you could do far, far, far worse.
(45:25):
I think you would find Bernadette extremely compelling.
Uh, and, uh, I am very grateful that you chose to spend some time with us today.
I'm sure our audience feels enlightened by what you shared.
And, uh, you know, continued success to you and you know what, again, circling back to
the election, um, you know, what's really interesting about leadership is that leadership
is about bringing people together sometimes around, sometimes when they, their core philosophies,
(45:51):
uh, are not aligned and being able to get them to, uh, row in the same direction, uh,
and achieve objectives for the greater good, uh, is really what leadership's all about.
So let's hope our country, whoever wins, uh, tonight's election, uh, chooses to lead in
that way.
Um, and I thank you again for being our guest today, Bernadette.
(46:12):
Oh, my pleasure.
Thanks, Tal.
Thanks, PJ.
I really appreciate it.
Oh, you're wonderful.
Thank you so much.
And that's a wrap, folks.
Like what you heard, want to support the show?
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(46:34):
and soon buy our merchandise at www.bravingbusiness.com.
Thanks for being a part of our production and we'll see you next time on the Braving
Business Podcast.
Hey there, I'm Tals Lotnitsky from Ignite IT Consulting.
(00:05):
You know me from the Braving Business podcast, but when I'm not behind the mic, I'm helping
tech startups and established companies ignite their full potential.
I also help entrepreneurs and businesses in distress reset for success.
With over three decades of entrepreneurial success, I bring hands-on experience to drive
growth, navigate turnarounds, raise capital, and lead to innovation.
(00:28):
Whether it's executive coaching or strategic transformation, I'm here to turn your business
challenges into success stories.
Visit igniteitconsulting.com and let's spark that change together.
That's igniteitconsulting.com.
Your journey to business brilliance starts now.
And one last quick thing.
(00:49):
If you enjoyed this episode, please stay on after the show to learn more about the Braving
Business podcast and other great episodes for you to discover.
And now, let's get the show started.
(01:13):
Well hello there.
Hello there and happy election day, sir.
Happy election day, my friend.
How are you, buddy?
I am well.
I'm a little nervous.
I just hope, you know, we Americans remember what unites us today.
That's my hope.
That's my dream.
That's my aspiration.
A thousand percent, buddy.
Yeah, I really hope.
I think the entire nation is a little nervous.
(01:34):
Yeah.
So yeah.
The entire world, PJ, is a little nervous, I would say.
That's so true.
Bernadette, you talk to a lot of people overseas, I'm sure still, a lot of family and friends
over there.
What is, are people nervous or are they just kind of watching what happens today with,
you know, great interest?
Oh, definitely great interest.
(01:56):
A definitely great interest.
And I think, yeah, I think a little nervous as well.
Lots of different reasons.
Yeah, lots of different reasons.
Yes, so true.
Yeah, well, we agree with that, but we are a business podcast, PJ.
So let us pivot.
Maybe we should introduce our lovely guests.
(02:17):
We will.
I just want to say.
And talk about what unites people, which is making money.
That is true.
And also living a life worth living.
So we are about both those things in the Braving Business Podcast.
We most certainly are.
So let's learn a little bit more about the wonderful guest we have today, Ms. Bernadette
McClelland.
Her life is an inspiring testament to courage, resilience, and the power of choice.
(02:41):
Once a top executive at Xerox, she ventured into entrepreneurship only to uncover, or
sorry, encounter profound highs and lows, including a life altering injury that nearly
destroyed her business and led to financial loss.
But Bernadette's response was anything but ordinary.
She reinvented herself, crossed the ocean late in life, and moved to the United States,
(03:02):
and then became a top sales coach, speaker, and author of six books, including The Art
of Commercial Conversations and The Soul Driven Salesman.
With her keynote, Deliberate Disruption, The Courage of Conviction and Action, Bernadette
has spoken globally on what it takes to rebuild and thrive.
Now based in beautiful and I think snowy Colorado, she also mentors incarcerated individuals
(03:27):
preparing for reentry into the world, embodying her philosophy of courage and second chances.
Bernadette joins us to share her journey, insights, and the essential lessons of daring
disruption.
And we are very honored to have her with us today.
So Bernadette, welcome and thank you so much for joining us on the Braving Business Podcast.
Oh, thank you so much, PJ and Tal.
(03:49):
It's great to be here and yeah, it's a topic very close to my heart.
Yeah, sounds great.
And you know, we were happy to have your team reach out to us about you being a guest.
I actually have one of your books and I've spent most of my career in sales.
And I do think that commercial conversations is an art.
And much of what you stand for resonates with me.
(04:10):
So I'm looking forward to having the audience hearing about it.
But let's start from the beginning you had and at the beginning, I don't mean childhood.
Let's talk about your choice to leave an impressive career with Xerox and step into entrepreneurship.
What was it that inspired you to leave the corporate world?
And how did your early experiences with entrepreneurship shape your mindset about business?
(04:31):
Oh, gosh, you know, I'd been at Xerox for 20 years.
So I was a veteran.
I'd come up through the ranks from admin through secretarial days back when they had typewriters
and used to do the sales guys commissions.
And I remember looking at this one end of month and looking at the amount of money that
had been made by the caliber of person that had actually made it.
(04:54):
And I thought, wow, if he can do it, I can do it.
But they said that I was too nice, didn't have what it took, wasn't aggressive enough.
And that was back in the 80s.
And I kind of proved them wrong.
And they gave me the traineeship.
And 20 years later, I left as one of the senior sales leaders and sales specialists at Xerox.
(05:17):
But what made me leave, I guess, was probably a naivety, but I had wanted to become a motivational
speaker.
And so I kind of took that path.
But it lasted two years.
Limiting beliefs got in the way.
So yeah, that kind of led me down a path of retail, when my husband and I bought a retail
(05:44):
outlet in country town.
And then that kind of led to wholesale and then led to importing.
And so we built a business that went from in the bricks and mortar world.
And that kind of is where life started to take a turn.
Sure.
So and what you are already saying resonates really well with me, because I've been in
(06:09):
sales my entire career as well.
So I am definitely looking to delve into all of this with you.
But you just mentioned limiting beliefs.
Is that imposter syndrome?
Well, I didn't think I had what it took.
And we're talking here pre-internet almost.
(06:31):
Like I mean, the internet was there, but it was very, and so social media wasn't there.
So the ability to market yourself wasn't there as much as it is today.
But I did start running my own breakfasts, you know, like bringing people in.
And it was this one particular breakfast.
It was early in the morning, I had a room filled with people.
(06:54):
It was about 45 people in the room, business leaders.
$95.
I remember this.
$95 a head they paid and we're talking like 2000, like 2001, that long ago.
And so the hour, I'd spoken for the typical hour and I looked down, reached for my water
(07:15):
bottle, my husband's watch was next to my glass of water.
And I noticed it had only been half an hour.
And the self-talk, these guys have paid so much money.
Oh my God, they're going to think you've ripped them off.
You know, con artists, all this self-talk was going through my head.
And so I started to pad out another half an hour and recap and try to give them more value.
(07:38):
And you could feel the energy in the room was dropping.
And my husband was at the back of the room and he was like, wind it up, wind it up.
His watch had stopped.
Oh my gosh.
I cried all the way back home to the country town we lived in for like an hour and a half's
(08:00):
drive.
And that was it.
I walked away from speaking for 10 years.
I walked away completely because I didn't believe I had what it took.
So that was a, yeah, that was kind of like a huge thing.
So there's so much there to unpack.
I'm going to try to do that and not filibuster because I think that the first experience
(08:27):
you had in the entrepreneurial world is probably one that almost everyone that is stepping
into entrepreneurship feels, which is, can I measure up?
Am I capable of doing what it is that I'm telling people I can do?
Or am I selling them some BS and I'm going to be exposed?
So it's a little bit of imposter syndrome, but it's more than that.
It's doubting your own abilities, not only thinking you're not necessarily from a place
(08:51):
of I'm not a person who is qualified to talk about this topic or provide this service,
but more from a place of I am not capable of succeeding in this.
So that limiting belief is the self-talk that we engage in oftentimes from a place of fear
and shame that we ourselves don't fully understand.
(09:15):
We don't even completely grasp where it's coming from.
How would you respond to that, Bernadette?
I totally agree.
I totally agree.
And I love the fact that you said sometimes we don't even know where it's coming from
because we can't quite wrap our hands or our thoughts around it and we will dress it up,
(09:36):
however we want to dress it up.
So clearly that day, all that happened was a watch had stopped.
And yet I had made such a story in my head about it that I chose not to do it any longer,
even though I loved doing it and I was good at it.
(09:56):
So what was it that really prevented me from going back?
And that's a question that probably needed so many layers peeled back at the time.
This probably took years for me to actually kind of come to grips with that.
But at the time, I was not able to answer that question.
(10:24):
So I think you're right there.
So I have a quick question.
You're touching something that I think, just like Carl said, a lot of entrepreneurs have
gone through.
As you were talking, I'm like, wow, I've done a lot of speaking.
I've failed miserably on a lot.
(10:46):
I've done great on a lot.
But I clearly remember you instantly brought me back to when I was in front of Shark Tank.
And there was a point where I lost my spot in my pitch and then the desperation inside
my head to try to get back to where I was, to find where I was in the pitch mentally.
(11:10):
And then all the self-talk, right?
Like you're blowing it.
This is terrible.
Say goodbye to your future.
Like everything.
And I could totally understand why it took you a while, like 10 years, not to go back
to it because it's a very wounding experience.
(11:31):
And it can be very devastating in a lot of ways.
And for me, that was the darkest night I've ever had.
So how did you do your own self-care to get you through that?
Like, go ahead, I'm sorry.
Yeah, no, life took a totally different track.
(11:54):
So we ended up buying a retail outlet.
And so I ended up putting all my strengths and my skill sets into running a business.
And so we had staff, we had stock, we expanded our business, we started wholesaling nationally
in Australia, and we started importing.
(12:17):
And so that then led to me actually having a forklift accident, which did tissue damage
to my shin.
Well, they put me on penicillin, but the penicillin shut my liver down.
And so my liver was, whether you want to say I was kind of over-prescribed or what, I don't
(12:40):
know, but for all of 2009, I was bedridden.
And so my husband and I were now in the business.
And of course, when I don't know if you've read the E-Myths, but when the person running
the business is no longer there, the business fails if it's not set up correctly, for all
(13:00):
of those different reasons.
And so we had to liquidate.
We lost houses, we lost everything.
And we were on welfare.
And so that was at the end of 2009.
And then coming out of that was a huge shift.
And that is where, when you learn to reframe, and that's where I think resilience, we talk
(13:29):
about resilience, but I think it's more than resilience.
It's going beyond resilience.
So what do you mean by that?
It's going beyond resilience, and it's interesting because one of the things you said in the
pre-interview is you mentioned that bouncing back isn't enough and you advocate for something
you call deliberate disruption.
Help us understand what that means and how it applies to the situation you found yourself
(13:51):
in.
And hindsight is always a wonderful thing.
And people process things differently.
Resilience is being able to cope.
When you're resilient, you're able to cope with chaos.
(14:13):
You're able to cope with calm.
And people say, great, let's bounce back.
You're able to bounce back.
But my whole philosophy is I don't want to bounce back to where I came from.
I want what I've been through to actually take me up, spiral me up and onwards.
(14:40):
Not even just bouncing forward, but going up and onwards.
And there's a book written by a guy called Nassim Nicholas Taleb called Anti-Fragile.
And anti-fragile is the complete opposite to fragile.
Most people think resilience is.
But anti-fragile is where you actually become stronger as a result of coming through a black
(15:04):
swan moment.
And so this is where I say deliberate disruption is where if you're able to deliberately disrupt
the way that you think, feel and act, we all have to be able to do that.
Because if we don't, something or someone else will typically do it to us or for us.
(15:30):
So it's having this mindset of saying, OK, it is what it is.
But I was physically incapacitated.
We were on welfare.
We had no money to our name.
It is what it is.
And we can cry.
(15:51):
We can do all of those emotions.
It can be OK with your emotions, definitely.
But it is what it is.
So you can either voluntarily surrender to the fact that it is what it is and move on
and do something about it.
And if you don't, then you go in a different direction.
But we have a choice.
(16:12):
And I suppose that's where I'm coming from with deliberately disrupting the way that
we think, feel and act.
I love this.
I love it.
It's the ownership of taking the event and using it as a positive motivator instead of
a woe is me.
So that's really awesome.
(16:33):
So we understand that you have worked with Tony Robbins in the past, other high profile
names, people that really command the stage.
What is it like to help others build this resilience, build this spiraling up and the
ownership of these issues?
(16:54):
What's it like to help others build that muscle while you're dealing with your own struggles?
Well, I think the big thing, take for example, all of us have the voices in our head that
we spoke about earlier about, I don't have what it takes.
(17:16):
I'm just going to walk away from doing what I love.
I just don't have what it takes.
We've all got those voices, but when you can flip it and when you can shift, and we'll
all have one statement or one question that we will ask all through our lives across just
(17:37):
about every context, whether it's sport, relationships, business, there will be one thing that's one
sound bite that is constant.
And if you think about that sound bite, it's typically focused on you and it's typically
focused on the past.
(17:59):
If you can flip it and focus it on other people and focus it on the future, it shifts things.
So what I mean by that is I have now recognized that I do have gifts, we all do, but I've
now owned those gifts.
I now own those gifts.
(18:21):
And so how can I take my gifts and share those gifts out there in the world to make a difference
with other people?
And when you can think that way, it's like what you focus on, you know, it's like you
(18:42):
now know that you are making a difference and that lights you up.
So let's break that down a bit because I think that, you know, especially as we reach the
point in our careers where we have perhaps started the second backside of our careers,
(19:04):
right, PJ and I are there as well.
There is a turning point where you no longer think strictly about, you know, bottom line
or your own self aggrandizement or, you know, how even how well you're doing necessarily.
(19:27):
I mean, you obviously we all care about how well we're doing and we start thinking about
our legacy.
And it's especially true if you've accomplished some things in your life and the people that
listen to the show for the most part are people that have accomplished things in their lives.
Some of them are rebuilding because accomplishment doesn't mean it doesn't guarantee you ongoing
(19:47):
success.
We've had many people, I'm one of them, PJ is one of them, that have reached, you know,
high highs and then had low lows and had to rebuild and you're right there with us.
How do you manage to continue to focus your attention on other people at a time when for
(20:08):
you having reached, you know, in 2009, not that long ago, essentially starting over again,
right now financially, how do you balance the fact that you're on the side of your career
where your mindset is about leaving a legacy, you understand the benefits of leading in
(20:28):
that way and you also have the reality of, man, I have a living I got to make.
I have goals I've got to meet.
Talk to me about that balance because I feel that that's a balance a lot of people shy away
from talking about.
Is there a balance?
You know, I think, oh, that's a really good question.
(20:54):
You've got to love what you do.
Okay.
So you've got to love what you do.
So yeah, okay.
So I've had a sales leadership consultancy for a number of years now and I was coming
over to America.
I managed to score a green card.
My husband got one for carrying my bags.
So we're here with, you know, we've got social security number, we're a green card, we've
(21:19):
got no tourist visa or anything like that.
And so two and a half years we've been here and the joy of doing sales training has kind
of been gone for about 18 months.
So about six months ago, I shared with my husband and that husband wife conversation
(21:42):
where I looked at him and said, what's that look for?
And he said to me, and we don't argue very much at all.
And he said, honey, we came to America so you could do speaking.
I don't know why you're resisting it.
And I said, because training brings the money in.
(22:04):
He said, you're not happy.
Don't worry about the money.
Now we need money.
Do not get me wrong with you.
Don't worry about the money.
He said, I want to see you happy.
So the path is a longer one, but I'm doing what I love.
(22:24):
And it's, I'm meeting different people.
I'm doing different things.
And I guess at the end of the day, you're talking legacy.
We have two adult kids in Australia, three little granddaughters under three.
We want to be role models as well for our kids and our grandkids.
So it's not always about the money.
(22:48):
It is, but it's not.
It's also about being happy.
And if you can get that balance, and I know you mentioned before about me volunteering
with the state penitentiary, that fills my cup.
So it swings and roundabouts.
(23:08):
But yeah, sometimes it's just having the bravery to call it.
That's awesome.
And I'm going to ask you to say a few words to your husband.
I know.
I know.
It's, it's having, having the right partner by your side is it's a night and day.
It's a night and day difference.
(23:28):
When, when you, as an entrepreneur are facing the challenges of entrepreneurship, we all
face them.
They could be large.
They could be small, but having the right sounding board and the right person there
by your side, whether to lift you up or prod you along or pull you back at the right time
(23:50):
is just so wonderful.
So for all, for all of our entrepreneurs who are listening out there, I hope that they
have that, that same type of companionship.
It's wonderful.
I agree.
So you know, you just mentioned filling your cup and working with, with those that have
have been in the penal system and they're trying to get out and, and make a positive
(24:14):
impact on society.
So working with them through the breakthrough program, as it's called, is a unique and
I'm sure as you kind of shared a very impactive or impactful endeavor.
How has this work affected you personally and shaped your philosophy on resilience?
Um, hugely actually, so, um, the, the breakthrough group is a nonprofit here in Colorado and
(24:40):
they've been going for about five or six years.
Um, and so, um, I'm, I'm just started my third cohort.
So some of these guys will never get out.
Um, so they're, they're high security, um, and a couple of them are minimum security.
So they are on their way out, but going inside the walls and, um, and getting to know them
(25:08):
at such a vulnerable, in such a vulnerable, um, setting where you're working with them
on their personal transformation and their entrepreneurial mindset.
So some of them are, you know, looking at reentry.
And so we're not talking about them becoming entrepreneurs.
Some might, but it's, it's that problem solving.
They will become employees.
(25:30):
So how can they think like employers so that they can be better employees?
Um, but the whole personal transformation part of it, where we can sit and talk about
things like forgiveness and resilience and, um, vulnerability and, um, their lifestyles
and how they've grown up and there's different empathy exercises that we do.
(25:52):
It's just completely, um, the completely transformed the way I, a look at, um, unconscious bias.
Um, and also, um, when you think about the fact that recidivism is usually nearly 50%,
but through this program, it's 6%.
Um, and you look at the power of this type of soft skill, um, rolling out soft skills
(26:21):
such as this, imagine the impact it can have on a corporation or a team when it comes to
productivity or profitability or, or, you know, staff retention or something like that.
Um, it's powerful.
So that for me is proof.
Um, but it's also just, you know, my colleagues that I work with, um, bad justice impacted.
(26:44):
So they have been in the system as well and, uh, are out.
So it's interesting.
My grandfather, uh, who my son is named after, he actually worked in the penal system his
entire life and he, he was a shoemaker, my grandfather, and he taught inmates how to
make shoes.
Uh, you know, at the time it was a, you know, profession that they could potentially earn
(27:07):
a living and earn some self-respect, uh, you know, uh, out, out in the real world.
And, uh, and he often talked about how the degree of resilience, uh, that, that, and
he worked with men that these men had, uh, was inspiring to him.
It was, it was almost incredible.
The degree of pain, many of them had gone through and, you know, obviously, uh, there's
(27:34):
oftentimes tremendous trauma that leads people to perform, uh, less well academically and
then it leads them to outcomes that are not desirable.
Let's just put it that way.
And they find themselves where they find themselves and they have two options.
One is to wallow in self-pity or, or, or in anger.
And the other is to hold themselves up.
(27:55):
And he was, he often spoke about how many of them, um, were able to do that in ways
that actually inspired him.
He'd go home and feel inspired.
I totally agree.
I go home totally.
It's an hour and a half drive and I'm totally inspired.
Totally.
And we've got guys there that, um, the thing is we're all the same because it's, it's a
(28:20):
decision, it's a timing, it's a split second that, that could mean any one of the volunteers
could be inside.
You know, it's just bad luck in some instances.
Some of them are innocent.
One guy's just been out after 23 years.
He voted today for the first time, 23 years out on the innocence project.
Um, you know, so it's, and then he's one of, one of the volunteers, he's actually on staff
(28:46):
with breakthrough.
So it's, um, they inspire us.
Um,
And you know, one thing that has, a lot of these people have in common is they trusted
the wrong person or the wrong people.
And that, uh, is another thing you speak of.
I know that, you know, you feel that trusting the wrong people and lack of clarity, you
know, are challenges you face personally in your life.
(29:06):
Uh, tell me, what did these experiences teach you about discernment and setting boundaries
in business and in life?
Um, so there's kind of two sides to the coin here, isn't there for me personally, I'm very
trusting.
Um, and then I'm not trusting.
So it's kind of, it's kind of like, Hmm, okay.
(29:28):
I get, can't have been burnt that way.
And I've been, you know, I'm probably not doing the right thing.
I'm not fair enough, you know, being fair enough to the other person in this way.
So, um, it's just a juggling act for me.
Um, but we have, yeah, my husband and I, we've been hurt through our process, um, where we
have trusted people and I'm talking accountants here, I'm talking family members.
(29:52):
Um, and then, you know, as a result, you don't trust people and really you learn, um, to
be forgiving and you learn that they are actually the people that you can trust.
So it's really getting out of your head and thinking, okay, let's just have a little bit
of self-awareness here.
Let's just have a little bit of emotional intelligence here and think what really have
(30:15):
they done?
Uh, or is it just your unconscious bias?
Is it just your fear?
Let's just give them, give them some, give them a little bit.
Um, and, and there's really nothing for you to be worried about.
Nice.
That's awesome.
So, um, going back to the ownership of the event and how you react moving forward with
(30:42):
the launch of the rise of the disruptive leader, you're focused on leadership through, through
this disruption.
Why is this concept important and how do you feel that it applies to today's business world?
Yeah, really good question.
In fact, um, in my role in sales leadership through my consultancy, what I found was,
(31:12):
um, so two parts to this.
So what I found was that when working with or when approaching sales leaders, um, to
work with their teams, a number of leaders would not make decisions.
(31:34):
A number of leaders would not want help.
A number of leaders, especially in our field, it's not just with me, uh, would put, uh,
sales trainers or consultants at arm's length, uh, for lots of different reasons.
Number one is they would not want to put their hand up to let above leadership above know
(31:58):
that they needed help.
Um, they wouldn't, they wouldn't want others to think that they weren't capable.
Um, others would be, you know what, I'm, I'm, I'm retiring next year.
Why would I want to rock the boat?
Um, and so all these different objections, if you like, for one of a better word for
(32:22):
us, I mean, we've all been in sales, um, that were blocking the opportunity for the sales
people to have some form of growth, to help that business sell more.
Um, and so now, so that's one part of it, just from purely from a, um, I guess, anecdotal
(32:43):
perspective, from an empirical perspective.
Um, and we're now looking at, at data, uh, companies today, and we're like businesses
globally, um, are now saying that their bench for leadership is there, their companies are
(33:06):
saying that it's like 12% is what they're saying their trust in their benches, their
leadership bench for lots of different reasons.
One is leaders are exhausted today, completely exhausted.
Um, we've got leaders who are not able to make decisions.
(33:27):
Um, we've got toxic cultures.
Trust is at an all time low for senior leaders from staff, from employees.
So we've got all of this happening because we are in this world today that is just the,
the economy now is referred to as a BANI economy, brittle, anxious, nonlinear and incomprehensible,
(33:53):
which means basically it's resilience is needed.
But you know, when we're talking resilience, yeah, just to survive.
Sure.
Absolutely.
But it's also important to be really present because anxiety and stress is at an all time
high.
Um, agility and adaptability and flexibility and all those words are, you know, there's
(34:14):
no logic.
There's no culling outside the, you know, no kind of, what's the phrase I'm trying to
think of?
The lines.
Yeah, the lines.
Um, and there's so much information, how do we make sense out of it?
So I want to ask you, I, you know, in general, uh, people that work with me know that I am
(34:40):
not a fan of the word disruptive or disruption because I think it's trite.
I think it's misused or abused.
Tell me why I'm wrong about that or why I should take a fresh look at disruption.
It's really interesting because I had gone and, um, created a model and looked at, um,
(35:01):
the disruptive leader and I was getting a little bit of pushback for probably that same
reason.
And I thought about it and I thought, Oh, you know what?
Do I change it to self disruptive rather than disruptive?
(35:22):
And I, what is the difference?
Exactly.
Uh, and I did for a split second and I, the reason I did was because self disruptive brings
it right back to that leader disrupting themselves the way they think, feel and act, which is
cool.
(35:42):
And then I thought about it and I thought, no, no, no, no, there's more to it than that.
In my, in my opinion, in my opinion, there's more to it because leadership today is more
than just disrupting how the leader thinks, feels and acts.
It's actually leaving.
We're talking about leaving a legacy.
(36:05):
Leadership today needs to do more than just manage.
They have to actually inspire and they have to, it's not even motivate because the word
motivate means a motive for action.
And if you have to motivate your team, if you have to give them a motive for action,
a reason to act, then what you need to do is inspire them and inspire means to breathe
(36:33):
life into something.
So a leader today needs to really transform.
And in my opinion, to do that is more than just hold them accountable, is to actually
help them think differently.
And how do you do that?
Innovatively, yes, but bring ideas in, bring story in, bring thought leadership in.
(36:58):
How do you help them think differently and think deeply?
How do you do that?
And how do you give them the ideas or the frameworks to do that?
And if it's a sales team, how do you, how do you give them, what are the tools that
you actually give them to go out to market and have these different conversations in
(37:21):
front of a buyer that is totally not just about product?
It makes perfect, when you lay it out like that, it makes perfect sense.
And I think it's something that a lot of people can kind of, you know, coddle up next to,
(37:43):
right?
Like they can get it.
You need to get my other book, Shift and Disrupt, Stop Selling Widgets, Start Selling Wisdom,
because in that, I break it all out with thought leadership and mental models and things like
that.
So do you feel, and I'm a little bit less of a, I'm a little bit harder to convince
than PJ.
(38:04):
Help me understand how this idea applies in professions that aren't white collar or aren't
sales.
We're really strictly talking about in sales professions.
Doesn't matter what you're selling.
Does it apply in all industries?
And I know I'll just hit you with three questions, but they're all around the concept of this
makes sense if you're selling high end, you know, things to big clients.
(38:28):
Does it make sense when you're, I don't know, selling tires to consumers?
It definitely does.
If you, well, okay.
No, not be, well.
Actually look, I'm getting quite twitchy here because the reason being is, okay.
(38:49):
I'm thinking of a couple of examples here.
Go for it.
Just a couple of examples.
So I'm going to bring it back to the prison and we'll go at the prison first.
I could use my husband with an interview, but I'll stick with the prison.
So part of what I'm doing with the guys down there is part of their graduation includes
(39:15):
a pitch competition where they've got to do a picture product and as a group, but initially
it's individual.
And then prior to that, it's getting their resumes and things ready for if they do get
out and they apply for a job, they've got to be ready to have that conversation.
(39:38):
So I'm interviewing one of the guys and I said to him, and I kind of straight cut to
the chase.
You know, they, they're all prepared.
They've got their resume nicely there and like anything they're prepared with the right
words.
So anyway, I sit there and I say to them, so, okay, what do you want this job for?
(40:01):
This particular guy, it was for a, um, uh, a music shop.
He played piano and I said, so why do you want the, you know, why you, why would I hire
you?
And uh, and out came all the magic words and I said, well, stop.
I said, the guy behind you is going to say exactly the same thing.
(40:22):
So why should I hire you?
What makes you different?
Anyway, I pressed the pause button and I said to him, I heard you played the piano and he
said, yes.
And I said, so what about playing the piano is relevant?
Oh no, he was the mechanic is relevant to having a mechanics, getting the job at the
(40:46):
mechanic shop.
And he thought about it.
And he said, dexterity and I've gone right, right down the word piano.
And then he said, then I kept going and I said, so, okay, so tell me what is it about
(41:08):
prison that will help you get the job?
What is it about being in prison that is a benefit?
And so we talked and it was about, um, discipline times, uh, basically he'll be there early,
you know, so that kind of conversation, I said, write down the word prison.
(41:33):
So where we got to was his homework was to think of a third word, beginning with P. So
my point here is a Venn diagram.
So when we're talking thought leadership, okay.
So he can now go into an interview.
(41:53):
He doesn't need to think about anything.
He just needs to think about his three P's and the Venn diagram.
And that is mental.
That's a model.
So that's his model for getting a job.
Now you can see why.
I'm trying to take away, uh, I think the, the point you're making here is that it doesn't
(42:17):
really matter what you do.
And this is your point of view.
I am not necessarily convinced yet, but I hear you.
It doesn't matter what you do.
Uh, there's, there's a way to inspire and there's a way to communicate that's more effective
than other ways.
Um, and that is true whether you're selling, uh, tires or software.
(42:41):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
You could bring story in, you could bring strategy and you could bring problem solving
in.
There's, there's just so many different ways, but the leader today can't just sit in the
corner office.
That's where I'm coming from.
And so we're all leaders.
So you don't have to be that leader today, but you do have to be a leader.
(43:06):
Gotcha.
Gotcha.
All right.
So, and thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for, for sharing all that.
Um, let's, okay.
Well, let's end on, on a little bit of a lighter note, uh, from what we understand you are
an avid adventurer at heart from sleeping in castles to tree houses.
(43:30):
What is one memorable experience that left a lasting impression on you for, uh, in your
travel?
What's a memorable experience?
Um, yeah, yeah.
So I think it would have to be, um, it would have to be Niagara falls and all, there was
no room in the inn and we got in about one or two in the mornings, went to Denny's and
(43:55):
everything we could not find a room.
And we slept in the car with our airplane pillow and, uh, it was cold.
I turned the heater on at about 5 AM in the car.
We woke up at about nine 30 quarter to 10, the car still running and there's people around
our windscreen, our, the front of our car.
So we're still in the car park at Niagara falls with the cast still running and we were
(44:19):
asleep and, um, and we had, we had, uh, an audience.
So there's just people watching you guys sleep.
That was, that was the, uh, that was the memorable one, but now there's, there's so many that
was one that just jumped out then.
So yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a pretty lime one, but no, you know what?
What's interesting about that is what jumps out tends to be traumatic.
(44:41):
You know?
Uh, I mean, it could have been great joy and sometimes that's the case.
Um, I think it's interesting.
I think it's, uh, you know, human psychology is a really interesting thing and where our
minds tend to go, um, is an interesting thing.
So no judgment, just very, very interesting that that's the story you chose our guest
today, Bernadette McClelland.
(45:02):
Uh, she is someone that is inspiring.
She's the author of six books.
She is a, uh, a very highly sought after coach and speaker.
Uh, she has a keynote, deliberate disruption, the courage of conviction and action that
I think is very interesting.
And if you're out there, uh, seeking training for your team, uh, or to bring someone in
to speak to your group, uh, I think, uh, you could do far, far, far worse.
(45:25):
I think you would find Bernadette extremely compelling.
Uh, and, uh, I am very grateful that you chose to spend some time with us today.
I'm sure our audience feels enlightened by what you shared.
And, uh, you know, continued success to you and you know what, again, circling back to
the election, um, you know, what's really interesting about leadership is that leadership
is about bringing people together sometimes around, sometimes when they, their core philosophies,
(45:51):
uh, are not aligned and being able to get them to, uh, row in the same direction, uh,
and achieve objectives for the greater good, uh, is really what leadership's all about.
So let's hope our country, whoever wins, uh, tonight's election, uh, chooses to lead in
that way.
Um, and I thank you again for being our guest today, Bernadette.
(46:12):
Oh, my pleasure.
Thanks, Tal.
Thanks, PJ.
I really appreciate it.
Oh, you're wonderful.
Thank you so much.
And that's a wrap, folks.
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(46:34):
and soon buy our merchandise at www.bravingbusiness.com.
Thanks for being a part of our production and we'll see you next time on the Braving
Business Podcast.
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