Disability on the Stage and on the Page with Alethea Bakogeorge

Episode Transcript
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Nicole Zimmerer (00:17):
Welcome to Break A Leg! A podcast that
explores the relationshipbetween disability and the arts.
I'm your host, Nicole Zimmer,and on today's episode our guest
is Alethea Bakogeorge. Aletheais a physically disabled actor,
arts administrator and artsaccessibility professional.
Hello, Alethea.

Alethea Bakogeorge (00:36):
Hi, Nicole.
It's so nice to be here withyou.

Thanks for being here! I'm so excited you
said yes.

Absolutely.
You know, one of the greatestthings about being in this
community of disabled theaterartists is getting to meet more
and more artists through socialmedia.

Yeah!

And that's really how you and I connected.

Yeah.

So it's great that we get to do this
together.

It really is.
I'm so pumped for this episode.
If you don't mind, I would loveto like, talk more about your,
your impressive resume.

Oh, thank you.

So Alethea has worked extensively in the
American and Canadian theatreand originated the role of
Chrissie in the US national tourof "Daniel Tigers Neighborhood
Live - King for a Day." And sheworks in access and fundraising
at The Musical Stage Company inToronto. And you're in Toronto

(01:31):
right now, so Break A Leg! isofficially international, which
is so, so dope.

Yeah.
Excellent.

Yeah. So our first segment is Spilling the
Disabili-Tea, where we take alook at historical or current
events, or share someinteresting facts relating to
the disabled community. Aletheais actually going to be taking
the lead with this one, becauseyou have a pretty interesting

(02:01):
fun fact for us today.

I think I do so, in infants, there is this
very interesting primal reflexcalled the Moro reflex. And some
people might know it as theinfant startle reflex. So
essentially, when a baby feelslike they are falling or that
they don't have support of theirlimbs, their muscles will sort

(02:27):
of extend and then retract andyou'll sort of feel like you're
jumping or falling. It's likethat feeling of suspension and
then falling when you're on aroller coaster. And generally,
in non-disabled individuals,that reflex goes away somewhere
between four and six months ofage. But in people who have
cerebral palsy, like myself andNicole, that startle reflex may

(02:50):
never go away. So if someonelike me or Nicole encounters
something startling, like a loudnoise or someone sneaks up
behind us, we may jump, even ifwe know that that stimuli is
coming. So like for mepersonally, one of the ways that

(03:10):
my friends always used to makefun of me when I was younger
(and I say this with completelove) one of the ways they used
to make fun of me was we wouldgo downstairs to the basement of
my house where my family like tokeep their soft drinks and chips
and snacks and stuff in thedownstairs pantry. And to get to
the pantry, you would have to godown a flight of stairs and then

(03:33):
turn a corner, and once you turnthe corner, obviously you can't
see what's around the corner. Sosome of my friends would like to
run down the stairs ahead of me,turn the corner and like hide
behind the pantry shelves, andthen jump out at me because they
knew that I would scream eventhough I had full intellectual

(03:53):
knowledge of the fact that theywere going to jump out and
scream just because I startle soeasily, and you know, it's a
biological thing, I can'tcontrol the fact that I'm going
to jump. So it's funny. Butsometimes it's inopportune.

And devious, and devious.

Yes, yes.

Yeah.

So if you know someone with CP, maybe
don't sneak up on them for fun?

Or do! You know.

I mean, maybe... maybe do just to see
what will happen, but like maybedon't do it all the time.

Yeah.

I don't know. Anyway.

I call that, uh, the factor of like my body
always feels like it's gonnafall or I'm jumping, or, you
know, I call it my "lizardbrain" because I'm like... it's
my lizard brain, I don't knowwhat you call it, but it's a
fact-- well... Whenever I'm inmy manual wheelchair, and

(04:49):
somebody new is pushing me, mybody is so tense because my body
is ready to hit the ground atany point. And I'm just so
tense.

But I mean Nicole, I think there's
something to that with like theidea of it being the "lizard
brain" because at least fromwhat I've read, and like,
granted, I was a musical theatermajor, like, I am no scientist.
But granted, from what I've readthis, the startle reflex is some
sort of biological holdover fromlike, when we would have needed

(05:19):
that as a reflex to survive inlike, more prehistoric versions
of the humans that we once wereet cetera, et cetera.

Yeah, yeah.

So you know, it probably is our primal lizard
brain on some level saying like,"Hey! Maybe you don't want to
fall!"

Do you the, like the, "this is what CP is"
off the top of your brain,Alethea? Because I don't.

I mean, like, the thing with cerebral
palsy is it's like aneurological condition that
consists of some sort of braindamage that is incurred either--

We've got brain damage!

And it consists of some degree of brain
damage that is incurred eitherat birth or shortly after birth.
And, you know, the brain damageis such that it can manifest in
a variety of ways. So like, forme specifically, it means that
like, my brain does notnecessarily communicate that

(06:23):
well with certain muscles incertain parts of my body. So I
have a type of cerebral palsy,that's called spastic
monoplegia, so that means thatthe muscles in one of my legs
are spastic, more spastic than,you know, a non-disabled
person's muscles would be, butthere are a variety of different

(06:43):
kinds of cerebral palsy, youknow, there are certain kinds of
brain damage that can affectmuscle tone in different ways.
You know, there are people withcerebral palsy who have multiple
limbs affected, there are peoplelike me who have, you know, a
certain side of their bodyaffected. And so you know,
whether or not I can say, like,"this is what cerebral palsy is

(07:03):
for all people" is probably notaccurate.

Yeah.

Because, you know, I experience it
differently probably than, Iexperience it probably much
differently than you do, Nicole.

Yeah. I mean, it's not a monolith. People
think it's a monolith, and it'snot. Because I think I also have
the spastic, what did you say?

Well, I have monoplegia, so it only affects
one of my legs.

Okay, so I have spastic cerebral palsy, but I
have like, it affects my leftside more, and it also affects
both of my legs and most of myleft side.

Yeah. So I think they would probably say
that you probably have likespastic diplegia, because that's
like one side?

Yes. Um, see, I love how you know more about my
disability than I do. You couldtell that I didn't pay attention
to the doctors growing up. I waslike, "Yeah, all right. Can I do
something fun now?"

Well, I mean, what I will say about that
is like, it's not... I don'tthink that you should be putting
yourself down for not payingattention to the doctors growing
up. I think that there's a,there's a real perception out
there, that cerebral palsy is achildren's disease. And that is
not, in fact, the case. It issomething that is diagnosed in

(08:29):
childhood, it is something thatI guess happens to you or that
you were born with in childhood.
But it is not something that youcan ever cure, it is not
something that you can ever growout of. And I know that like
when I was growing up, I had alot of doctors, especially
because I only have one legthat's affected, I had a lot of
doctors essentially say to me,like, "Oh, you know, Alethea, if

(08:52):
you work hard enough and youstretch enough, and you do this,
that and the other thing, youknow, you--"

Bullshit.

"If you do all these things, and you work
hard enough, you will not be...
you will not be disabled whenyou are an adult." And in fact,
that is very much not the case.
In fact, I have found that in...
So I'm 25, and I've found thatin the past, especially in the
past five years, my body hasbeen worse than it ever was in

(09:23):
childhood, when I was like inphysical therapy all the time
and learning how to fix the waythat I, you know, learning how
to quote-unquote "fix" the waythat I walked and you know,
receiving a lot more consistentmedical attention than I am now.
But so, you know, there's a,there's a real perception in the

(09:47):
medical community, that cerebralpalsy doesn't affect adults. And
so I'm not surprised that likeyou don't know how to describe,
it that I sort of choke up whenI feel like I am asked to, you
know, describe what CP is,because I'm sure we've come up
with like, we've grown up withmedical providers that indicated

(10:11):
to us in our youth that CPwasn't going to be as big a deal
long term in our lives than itactually ended up being. And due
to the perception that like,people think it's a childhood
illness, there's also so littlefocus on like, what CP is going
to look like for you inadulthood.

Exactly.

You know, nobody ever told me when I was
12 years old and thinking about,you know, not wanting to wear my
AFO, my ankle foot orthosis, myleg brace, to school anymore,
because I was concerned abouthow I looked, because I was
about to be a teenager, youknow. Nobody ever told me then

(10:58):
that like, my body might standup to that and stand up to
walking independently without amobility aid at that point in my
life, but nobody ever told methat I might hit a point in,
like, eight years from then,that my body was going to start
to go back downhill and that mybody was going to start to get

(11:19):
worse and worse.

Yeah.

Um, so, so you know, I don't, I don't blame
you for not knowing a lot aboutCP because I think a lot of
people who have CP are not wellprepared by the people who are
supposed to be providing themwith care.

Well, um, thank you for that. I do have some...
Okay. So, actually, I've justgoogled it, and according to
Google, "cerebral palsy, or CPis a group of disorders that
affects a person's ability tomove and maintain balance, and

(11:58):
posture. CP is the most commonmotor disability in childhood.
Cerebral means having to dealwith the brain, and palsy means
a weakness or problems using themuscles." So, um, it's a real
fun ride, you guys. Yeah. It'sthe most common motor disability

(12:19):
in childhood, so basically,we're the basic bitches of
cripples.

Yeah.

So basically, Google is telling me, I'm a
basic bitch, which is, you know,accurate.

One of the things I didn't know about my CP
growing up, was that the waythat I use my muscles is
actually putting a lot of stresson my body as a whole. And
whereas, I could deal with that,when I was 16 years old, and my
body was still like, brandspanking new, I find that now

(12:54):
that I'm in, you know, that I'mheaded towards my late 20s, and
I'm really starting to feel likeI'm truly aging for the first
time in my life, as opposed togrowing.

Yeah.

I do find that I am aging more quickly
than my peers. And I've spokento, you know, several other
people in my network, who haveCP and are in their 20s, and in
their early 30s, and they allsay the same thing, "Yeah, we're
aging more quickly. Yeah, we'reaging more quickly than
everybody around us." You know,it's just, it's just kind of

(13:29):
wild. Like I think to myself,you know, I probably need my
right hip replaced, my doctorsthink I need my right hip
replaced it about 10 years.

Jeez.

So I'll need a hip replacement by the time
I'm 35, and obviously, peopledon't generally get hip
replacements that young. I mean,luckily, it is a fairly easy
surgery, and I should have agood recovery. It is, it is
funny to me when people say tome, "Oh, this is what you have
to look forward to." And I thinkto myself, "Oh, no, I'm 25 and

(14:01):
we're already there. We'realready doing it."

Yeah.

It's fine.

Well, it's a real issue in the medical field
because people who focus oncerebral palsy do not think that
adults with cerebral palsy arequote-unquote "sexy." It's not a
very, like, you won't find fameand acclaim working on adults

(14:25):
with cerebral palsy. And I waslike, that is such, you know,
it's bullshit because, like,what do they expect? Like, we
turn 18 and it suddenly goesaway? It does not. Um, which is
why like, I remember beingaround, you know, ages 10 and
11, and being like, "Oh, yeah,this will be done, by the time

(14:48):
I'm 16. I'll be regular 16year-old." And I was a regular
16 year-old, I just did it in achair, but like, I didn't see
any... any like disabled adultswith cerebral palsy, growing up
in the media.

Yeah.

Or like, um, cuz I like I knew there were
disabled adults but like, theywere older people or they were
like veterans or they, you know,had spinal cord injuries like
I... I don't know any olderadults with cerebral palsy in my
life personally. Um, I know theyexist because I saw Crip Camp

(15:28):
and it was amazing.

Yeah.

And it should have won the Oscar. Do not talk
to me about it. I'm stillsalty--

Yeah.

--like three weeks later, it's great. Um.
Alethea, now that we've coveredyour physical damage, let's talk
about your career! You're anactor, you just finished an
amazing run, you just finished aproduction of She Kills
Monsters, and you know, I'malways really interested,

(15:56):
talking to all artists aboutlike, what, like, when did the
theater bug bite you?

Yeah, so for me, I think, I am very much a
child of 2000s reality TVcompetition programs. So one of
the, I think one of my veryfirst obsessions as a child was
the Canadian Idol franchise,specifically the Canadian Idol

(16:27):
franchise, because I amCanadian. And I just remember
being so enamored with thepeople who were on that show,
and being so convinced that oneday I was going to grow up and
win Canadian Idol. Now, ofcourse, that did not happen.

(16:52):
Canadian Idol was canceled farbefore I ever turned 16.

Really?

So regrettably, I was never even
able to audition. But that was,you know, I think the first
season of... the first season ofCanadian Idol aired when I was
in first grade, and watchingthat show was my inspiration to
join choir. And watching thatshow was my inspiration to start
getting integrated into some ofthe arts offerings that were at

(17:19):
my elementary school. And, youknow, I just continued to do
things like that throughout mychildhood. And I was one of
those kids who never really knewwhat she wanted to do as a
career. And I always feltreally, really stressed by the
fact that I never had an answerfor anybody at family dinner

(17:42):
parties and stuff like that,when they would say, "Oh, you
know, what do you want to bewhen you grow up?" I never, I
never had an answer, and I wouldburst into tears because the
idea of not knowing what Iwanted to do, and the idea of
disappointing people because Ididn't know what I wanted to do
was so hard for me to wrap myhead around. And so you know, I

(18:03):
just, I got bit by the theaterbug just by, you know, being
involved in the arts growing up.
But then I saw my first Broadwayshow when I was 14 years old on
my 14th birthday.

What show was it?

My dad took me to see Wicked.

Oh my god, classic, classic!

Exactly, the exact show that you would expect
somebody who is a theater fan inthe late 2000s, to just like,
love and latch on to.

Yeah.

My dad took me to see Wicked, and I remember
sitting in the audience in Row Mof the Gershwin Theatre, and
thinking to myself, "I have todo that!" Um, and I think it was
a surprise to a lot of people inmy family, because I was really
intensely academic. I'm stillreally intensely academic. I'm

(18:54):
still such a nerd. And it was areal--

You read like five books a week. It's amazing.
It's incredible.

I mean, that's incorrect, but I am
trying to read 65 books thisyear.

Oh my gosh.

So we'll see.

Nerd.

Well, exactly! I am a nerd, and--

Yeah.

--it was a real heel-turn for me to say to
my family, "Actually, I reallywant to pursue the arts."

And then you fucking did it. You fucking did
it. Congratulations. Gold starfor you.

Thank you.
Sometimes I still can't believethat, you know, 14 year old
Alethea went to go see aBroadway show and wanted so
badly to be a professionalactor. And now I am a
professional actor.

Yeah, no, dreams come true every day.

They do.
They do but you know, it's verydifferent than what I imagined
it would be.

Can you tell us what it's like being a disabled
performer for you in in theindustry nowadays and you know,
all of the highs and lows thatthat come with being in the
industry? Um, I mean, everybodystruggles in this industry, it's
basically like, you buy a ticketto be on the struggle bus. Um,

(20:09):
but, how, how is it, personallyfor you, how has it been?

Um, you know, I understand that this is
a podcast, and so none of youcan see me. So I think it might
be worthwhile me explaining justa little bit about my
disability. So for me,personally, Nicole, I know that
you are a wheelchair user, andI've had a slightly different
relationship to mobility aidsover the past couple of years.

(20:38):
So like, we were saying, when wewere talking about the different
kinds of CP, my kind of CP isgenerally considered to be
fairly mild. And when I wasgrowing up, it was always
expected of me that I was goingto walk independently and not
really use that many mobilityaids. You know, like I said, I

(21:00):
always wore an ankle footorthosis, so a kind of leg brace
on my affected side growing up,and then eventually I stopped
wearing it for a little while,and then, of course, as I got
older and I noticed my bodycontinuing to age I have since
gone back and I have, you know,started wearing that leg brace
again. Recently, I just got myfirst cane that I use for when

(21:25):
I'm walking long distances, orwhen I'm on a little bit more
uneven terrain. But you know,it's interesting being a
disabled performer with markersof disability that are not
necessarily always visible.

Yeah.

I always feel like I'm straddling a very
weird line between being visiblydisabled, and invisibly
disabled. Because if you watchme walk across a room, you can
tell that there's somethingwrong with my gait.

Yeah.

You can tell that I don't walk like a
non-disabled person. But if I'mwearing wide leg pants, for
instance, and you can't see myleg brace, you might not
necessarily be able to tell whythat is, you know, you can tell
that something's off, but youcan't immediately tell that I'm

(22:26):
disabled. And so I thinksometimes, as an actor, people
in this industry look at me andthey're not really sure if I'm
disabled, or if I'm anon-disabled person just having
like, a really bad day andforgetting to pick up her feet.

Yeah.

Um, you know, am I just like a really
tired non-disabled person?

Right.

No, I'm a tired disabled person, I want to
be very clear, I'm very tired.

Being tired and being disabled are not mutually
exclusive.

Exactly.

We're tired all of the time, for various
reasons.

Correct. And so I think, I think for me, the
thing that has been challengingas a disabled artist is not
really knowing where I fit inthe industry, and not knowing
how to explain to decisionmakers behind the table what
they should do with me, becauseI feel like a lot of the time I

(23:29):
walk into audition rooms and,you know, I get I get a variety
of reactions. Sometimes I'llwalk into an audition room, and
I'll be wearing my leg brace,and you know, I'll be meeting a
group of people behind the tablethat I've never been introduced
to before, and they will look atme, and they will say something
like, "Oh, my God, what happenedto you?" because they take one

(23:51):
look at my leg brace, and theythink that it's a cast, or they
think that it's a splint, orthey think that it's something
that is just born of an injury,rather than coming from this
disability that I've literallyhad since the day that I was
born. So like, I don't know whatit is to be non-disabled,

(24:11):
because I've never beennon-disabled. But some people
when I bring my body into theroom, some decision makers think
that I'm a non-disabled personwho's just been injured.

Yeah.

Similarily sometimes I will go into
audition rooms for a specificreason, you know, maybe a
theater wants to meet artiststhat they perceive are more
diverse in one way or another.
And so, you know, I'm a whitewoman, and I walk into these
rooms, and sometimes I can tellthat there are people sizing me

(24:47):
up, thinking to themselves, "whyare you here?" And I totally get
that, like they're their rightto be suspicious, I am a white
woman. But, you know, then it,then I find that the onus is on
me to explain to those people,whether they've said, like,

(25:08):
"what's wrong with you," orwhether I just get the vibe in
the audition room that like,they don't really know why I'm
there, then I have to, like,explain things about my body in
a way that like, you know, Idon't mean to speak for you in
any way, but in a way that like,maybe you don't have to, because
you're a wheelchair user, andpeople understand that as a form

(25:31):
of disability.

Yeah. It's like, I when you were saying
this, I was like that's reallyintimate to be telling a bunch
of strangers, about your body.

Totally, it's hard. I, you know, I walk
into these audition rooms, andI'm getting ready to, you
know... I was trained as amusical theater performer, so
it's challenging for me when Iwalk into the room and I have
this expectation of, "Okay, I'mgoing to walk in, I'm going to
greet the panel, I'm going to goto the piano, I'm going to sing

(26:03):
my song." And it's alwayschallenging for me when I walk
into a room and the peoplebehind the table say something
like, "Oh, my God, what happenedto you?" and then I have to
explain, "Oh, I'm disabled. I'vealways been like this. It
affects my body in this way,"because I know for a fact that
the blonde ingenue who was inthe room before me singing "The

(26:26):
History of Wrong Guys" fromKinky Boots, did not have to
come into the room and sharethings about her medical history
in order to get the panel tounderstand her body in order to
get a job.

Yeah.

And that makes, that makes it difficult
for me to do the work that Iactually came in the audition
room to do, because if I'mstanding there, you know, before
I'm looking over at theaccompanist about to have them
give me my bell tone so that Ican start my piece, and I'm
thinking about, "oh, my god, didI say the right thing? Did I

(27:00):
present my body in the rightway? Because I told them that
I'm disabled, are they not goingto want to see me dance?" you
know, "are they not going towant to put me in this show,
because they don't think that mybody can handle it?" If all of
those things are going throughmy head--

You're gonna have a shit audition.

Yeah, in the five seconds before I'm supposed
to... in the five seconds beforeI'm supposed to tell a story,
compellingly, if all of thosethings are going through my
head, I'm not going to be ableto do my best work.

Yeah.

And so it really undermines me, as a
performer, that there's not adeep enough understanding of
what the spectrum of disabilitylooks like. Because I feel like
if certain people who arephysically disabled in certain
visible ways walk into anaudition room, the panel knows

(27:54):
what they can expect from them,and the panel does not know what
they can expect from me. Andthat's hard, because, you know,
I can't build trust with peoplethat I've never met in 30
seconds in the context of anaudition, when I'm trying to get
a job. Like there's a huge powerdifferential there for one

(28:16):
thing, and like, for anotherthing, like, I don't know you.
Like, I don't know if I cantrust you with intimate details
about my body, and I shouldn'thave to.

Right.

Um, so, you know, it's difficult for me
because I sometimes, I sometimesreally do feel that in those
situations, unless I'm going toexplain every last detail about
my body and about my disability,I really do feel that sometimes
I'm perceived as being toodisabled for non-disabled

(28:52):
roles...

Yeah.

Because sometimes I can walk into an
audition room and if I'm dresseda certain way, and if I don't
wear my leg brace, sometimes Imight be able to get away with,
you know--

Yeah.

--making the panel think that I'm not
disabled. But I do often feelthat I'm too disabled for those
roles, but then not disabledenough for the disabled roles
that are in the canon, becausetheir understanding of
disability is not nuancedenough.

Right. Right.
And also when, like, when youfeel like you're getting away
with like, passing, do you feeldishonest? Because like, this is
not what actually is...

Absolutely.
Absolutely, I you know, it's alot of... it's a lot of
pressure.

Yeah.

It's a lot of pressure. Absolutely it feels
dishonest to walk into anaudition room and for me to try
to downplay my disability. Butsometimes I feel like I have to.

Yeah.

Because like I said, if I feel that I can't
get work playing the disabledroles that are available to me,
then what other options do Ihave, except to downplay my
disability as much as I can, andtry to be cast in non-disabled

(30:15):
roles? And like, of course, thelogical answer is there just
needs to be a deeper level ofunderstanding within our
industry on what the spectrum ofdisability is. And we need to
start casting disabled actors innon-disabled roles in the first
place--

Right.

--all the time.

Yeah.

And you know, it's difficult, it's
difficult for me when I walkinto an audition room and I'm
representing myself in a certainway that may or may not be
perfectly honest. And then, youknow, should I get that job?
Then I am in the position of"Okay, but like, what if
something happens to me? Or,what if I'm having a bad pain

(30:57):
day? Or, what if I need myaccess needs met in this room?"
Are the people who hired me, notthinking or not knowing that I
was disabled, going to be mad atme for not being more upfront?

Yeah.

So it's very fraught, it's like, either I
have to disclose everythingabout my disability in the
audition room and run the riskof not getting the job because
they don't understanddisability, or I have to
withhold it for as long aspossible and potentially put
myself in situations that makeme uncomfortable, or where my

(31:36):
needs aren't being met, and, youknow, risk, harming
relationships that I'm buildingwith people who are offering me
work. So it's really tricky.
It's really tricky.

It's a catch 22. I will say, like, you're
between a rock and a hard place,man. Um, I don't think it's like
just the industry, I think it'slike society as a whole does not
understand disability. And I'mlike, all right... what do you
do? Like, I feel like what,like, every time I meet somebody

(32:09):
new, or like I'm in a room fullof strangers, I'm like my body
is my body, but I also like, Ifeel like an educational tool,
and sometimes I don't want toeducate but like, if I'm not
going to educate who will? Youknow what I mean?

Totally, totally. And, you know, I feel
that this is another way wheredisabled artists in general, are
at a disadvantage compared tonon-disabled artists. Because I
mean, you, you and I are theexception. Both you and I went
to theater school.

Right.

So we are trained, disabled artists. And
we had the privilege of beingintroduced to the industry, and
introduced to professionalswithin the field, in ways that
many other disabled artists donot. So I, you know, I also
don't mean to sit here and belike, "Oh, woe is me, woe is

(33:07):
me," because I know that thereare so many people who would
kill to have the opportunitiesthat I've had.

Yeah.

However, it is still way more difficult for
artists like you and I to getthings like representation in
this industry, compared to ournon-disabled peers.

Yep.

So, you know, for my friends who have
agents, they are lucky enough tohave somebody be the go-between,
between them and the peoplebehind the table in the audition
room to say like, "This is whatyou need to know about my client
before they come in to sharetheir work with you." And I, you

(33:52):
know, I'm not represented, so Idon't happen to have that. So
really, the onus is on me to gointo these rooms and explain my
disability and be thateducational tool to the team.
And I wish I didn't have to dothat, you know, I wish it were,
I wish it were easier fordisabled artists to gain

(34:13):
representation and get thesupports that they need so that
we don't always have to be ourown advocates.

Yeah.

That can be really tiring. And I wish, I
just wish there were moreinterest in disabled artists
because it's, it's so hard, it'sso hard to have to manage all
those aspects of your career andkeep the big picture in mind.

Right, right, exactly. You mentioned earlier
in the conversation aboutnuance, can you like, talk about
like what do you mean when yousay like nuance in terms of like
disabled characters you see,like, get representation on
stage or the screen?

Yeah, I think that like, there's a lack
of diversity of representationof disability--

Right.

--within the theatre canon.

Yeah.

I think that oftentimes when you see a
disabled character in a show,they are somebody who is
disabled in one very typical,stock way.

Yeah.

You know, being disabled seems to be their
primary character trait.

It's a plot device.

Exactly, exactly. It's either, it's
either they're disabled becausethat's the great tragedy of
their life, or they're disabledbecause that's their motivation
to become the villain, orthey're disabled because they're
there to be the inspiration inthe story. Disabled characters
are so infrequently allowed tohave their own full humanity in

(35:52):
the theater canon.

Yeah, yeah.

And, so as a disabled artist who straddles
that line between being visiblydisabled and invisibly disabled,
how I feel like that plays outon me is it requires me to
police my own body when I'mmaking artistic work. And I'll
explain, I'll explain what Imean. What I mean by that is, so

(36:16):
for instance, as you mentioned,one of the great joys in my
career so far has beenoriginating the role of Chrissie
in "Daniel Tigers NeighborhoodLive - King for a Day." Now, if
any of you have seen DanielTiger's Neighborhood, the lovely
show for children on PBS, youmight know Chrissie. Chrissie in

(36:37):
the PBS show has an unspecifieddisability, and she walks using
forearm crutches. In "DanielTigers Neighborhood Live - King
for a Day," the stage show,Chrissie not only used forearm
crutches, but she also used aposterior rolling walker. So
those are two mobility devicesthat I don't necessarily use in

(36:58):
my day-to-day life, so I had tolearn to use them on stage. And,
you know, it was something that,I'll be honest, it was something
that stressed me out. Because Ifeel, as a disabled artist, that
there's a lot of... I feel a lotof responsibility when I step on

(37:20):
stage as a disabled artist torepresent my community in the
best light possible. And it'sdifficult for me when the roles
that are out there for me toplay are not necessarily roles
that line up with my livedexperience--

Yeah.

--are not necessarily roles that I feel
show disabled people's fullhumanity. So I feel a lot of
pressure to represent mycommunity in the best way
possible on stage, just becauseI know that the amount of
representation of our communityis still so small. But what that

(38:01):
ends up meaning is becausethere's not a huge diversity of
what's on stage, it often meansthat I have to put myself into a
box of representing disabilitythat doesn't necessarily feel
true to me.

Authentic, yeah.

Yeah and it doesn't necessarily mean that
it's bad.

No.

Because I think that I did a good job in
Daniel Tiger, I hope that I dida good job and Daniel Tiger.

I'm sure you did fantastic.

I mean, I did that show for... I did that
show for almost a year, so Ihope so, good grief. But, you
know, I sometimes feel like Ihave to police my own body and
make myself seem either more orless, depending on the role,
disabled than I am. Um, andit's, it's challenging because

(38:53):
sometimes I just wish that Icould play a role that has my
lived experience of disability,I don't feel like I've seen that
on stage.

We're gonna make it better, Alethea, we're
gonna be like, "We're coming,the industry. We're coming,
Hollywood." Um, Alethea, what doyou... because you talk about
wanting to play a role that likewanting to, you know, play a

(39:25):
role that fits your livedexperience, which I totally
understand. God knows we needmore disability representation.
But what do you say to peoplewho respond to that, you know,
you saying that, and saying,"Well, that's acting, like
you're not playing yourself,you're being an actor, that's
your job"?

I mean, I think there's a difference. You
know, this is such a cliche.
But, you know, there's that oldmaxim that acting is behaving
truthfully, under imaginarycircumstances. And so obviously,
at least for me as an actor,it's easier, and it's more
fulfilling, and it's richer whenI get to play characters who are

(40:13):
closer to myself. And I don'tjust necessarily mean in terms
of my disability, I have a mucheasier time playing women who
are queer like me, I have a mucheasier time playing women who
are unabashedly earnest, I havea much easier time playing women
who are nerdy, I have a mucheasier time playing characters

(40:34):
who speak at the speed ofthought. Because those are all
things that are intrinsic to me,and so when I see that in a
text, I can instantly look at itand know how to interpret it and
know how I would feed myselfthrough that character in a way
that makes that character moretrue to life, more realistic,

(40:56):
more easy for me to repeatperformance after performance in
a very consistent manner. It'salways fun to play somebody who
is deeply outside of that realm,but I would say that that is not
where I, or where most actorsare most successful.

Yeah.

And that's why we have the concepts we do
in this industry of things liketype, you know, things like, you
know... Jennifer Lawrence (I'mjust picking somebody random),
you know, Jennifer Lawrence isyour, slightly brash--

Cool blonde chick.

Yeah.
Slightly, slightly brash,intense, leading lady.

Yeah.

And you wouldn't necessarily call on
Jennifer Lawrence to play, youknow, something like what Anya
Taylor-Joy does in the Queen'sGambit.

Yeah.

Because it's, it's just a slight, it's
just a totally different feel ofwhat comes most naturally to
those actors intrinsically. Andit can be totally, it can be
totally fun to push yourself andtry something new, but it's also
really... I find that the timesthat I have felt most fulfilled

(42:13):
as an actor are when I canexplore slightly different
facets of myself, but that aregrounded in enough things that I
know to be true about myselfthat I always know where like
that character's North Star is,like, if there if there are, if
there are just too many thingsthat I can't get a handle on how

(42:34):
I would react to thosesituations or those
circumstances, personally, Ihave a much more difficult time
creating a character or aperformance that feels really
fleshed out, because I'm justI'm just guessing at that point,
at how that person would operatein their lives. So you know,
like, there's that joke that Iknow I made when I was in

(42:57):
theatre school, and I'm surethat you heard when you were in
theatre school of, well,"everybody here is just getting
a degree in learning how to playpretend."

Right.

Or, "everybody here is just getting
a degree in pretending."

Or crying, for me. But, you know.

Oh, absolutely, like my minor was in
crying.

Yeah.

Don't worry about it, same. Um, I think, I
think everybody is being alittle bit facetious when they
say that, but there is some,there is some level of truth to
that, because acting is theelevated version of the playing
pretend that you do when youwere a kid. And you know, what I
think is interesting about thatis like, if you were a kid and

(43:41):
you're three years old, and youdon't know anything about, I
don't know, outer space. Andsomebody on the playground asks
you to play astronauts withthem, you're not going to know
how to pretend to be anastronaut, accurately.

Yeah.

So to some degree, you need to be playing
within your realm of livedexperiences, or at least within
your realm of understanding.

Yeah.

Or else you're not going to give a
successful performance.

Yeah, exactly.
It's like, what they say thewriters like, "write what you
know," and I'm like, okay, I canwrite about an alien
crash-landing into Earth, but Ican also like, I can also write
about the girl that he meets whois disabled and like, working at
like, a nine-to-five that shehates, you know, like...

Yeah.

It just, the story gets so much more in
depth.

Yeah.

Because, like, the audience knows that like...
to be honest, anybody can writelike a shitty alien story
because nobody's actually thereto fact-check us (besides the US
government, but I don't thinkthey're at that point yet). But
everybody knows what being ahuman is like, so they can

(45:03):
relate it,

Yeah.

They can relate to it on a deeper level.

And if you write a story about a disabled
person that's not accurate, orthat's not grounded in people's
lived reality, or that, youknow, only uses the disabled
character as a plot device--

We will totally fact-check you.

Exactly. The disabled people in your
audience, the one in five peoplein the world--

Yeah.

--who have a disability, are going to be able
to tell. And not only that, theone in five disabled people who
see that piece and encounterthat character are going to be,
are going to be able to tellwhen that character is just
being used as a plot device, andwhen there's been no meaningful
effort made on the part of thewriter, or on the part of the

(45:54):
actor, or on the part of anybodyon the team to make that
character fully a part of theworld that they are supposed to
inhabit.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and also, speaking for
myself and I don't know aboutyou, Alethea, I'm a very, very
picky disabled reader, like I'ma bit like, if I... I'm reading
this book right now, and it hasa disabled protagonist, and I'm
very excited, and I get like 30pages in and the author is like,

(46:26):
doing great with his research,like I can tell he did, um, he
actually talked to a disabledperson, which isn't always the
case. And then there was thisone moment where he was like,
the author wrote that thecharacter's wheelchair, his
power wheelchair, got up to 20miles-per-hour, and I was like,
"Nope! No, that's bullshit.
That's bullshit." Power chairs,for those of you who don't know,

(46:50):
go up to like, five-to-sixmiles-per-hour, seven or eight
tops. There's no way, there's noway he gets to 20. Because you
know, that is? Dangerous. And nowheelchair manufacturer worth
their salt will risk being suedby a bunch of pissed-off parents

(47:10):
because their kid was playingDaredevil and went too fast and
crashed into a tree! Becauselet's face it, I would be that
kid. I would be that kid. So Iknow when you guys do your
research and when you don't. Andyou know what? I will, I will, I

(47:31):
will call you on your bullshit,I don't care.

And you know, that's not to say that
non-disabled people can't andshouldn't be writing disabled
characters.

Yeah.

Because in fact, I'm here to say that they
can, and they should. Becausedisabled people deserve more
representation in media, fullstop.

Yes.

And if we are only depending on disabled
artists to provide thatrepresentation, the gap is going
to close far too slowly.

Yeah.

So I'm here to say that like, non-disabled
people should be writingdisabled characters, should be
doing a lot of research, shouldbe taking the steps to mitigate
those mistakes. And you know,with something like the book
example that you just gave, Ithink that's like a wonderful
opportunity to hire moredisabled people and bring them
more onboard your team to makesure that things like that don't

(48:28):
make it to print. Because thatmistake could have been caught
by one more sensitivity readeror a play can be improved by one
more session with a disableddramaturg. Or, you know, any
other number of combinationsthat bring actual disabled
people with actuallived-expertise into the room,

(48:51):
compensating them for theirtime--

Right.

--to say, "Hey, this is how we can make
this piece more successful."

Yeah. And I will say about the book, the
author does a wonderful job. Ijust got really like, it took me
out of the story for a littlebit, and I had to be like if--

Of course.

Yeah.

I don't mean to say, I don't mean to say that
disabled people are sittinghere, lying in wait, watching
your shows, reading your books,watching your plays, waiting for
you to make a mistake aboutdisability. I know that whenever
I watch a show, or read a playfor the first time that has a
disabled character in it, Ialways go into it with the

(49:34):
greatest amount of good faith.

Yeah.

I want that piece to be incredible. I want
that piece to be a goodrepresentation of disability. I
am willing to give anybody thebenefit of the doubt for putting
a disabled character in themedia that they are putting
together. And you know, mistakeslike the one that you were just

(49:58):
talking about Nicole, like yeah,they will stick out like sore
thumbs to disabled people whoare in-the-know, but like
ultimately, if the rest of yourstory is carried out in an
authentic way, you and I, and Ithink most disabled people are
able to look past that. All I'm,all I'm really saying is that
like, there is more opportunitywithin the entertainment

(50:21):
industry at large to bring moredisabled people into creative
processes, so that the mediathat we have is just going to
continue to get stronger andstronger.

Right.

Because why, why have a mistake if you don't
have to, of course. But it's notlike we're the scary, you know,
"disabled people canceledculture police" who are just
like waiting for you to make amistake, and like, all of a
sudden, "no, like, you'verepresented disability in such
an awful way," like, "we haveto, we have to send you away."
Like no, that's not, that's notwhat we want.

No.

Like, we want it to be good. This is what
we've been waiting for.

Yeah, I will say, in grad school, it was kind
of hard for me to accept when anon-disabled person wanted to
write a disabled role. I havechanged, like obviously, like
I'm much more open to beinglike, "yes, you can do this, but
please know... please do yourresearch." It's like, it's not

(51:20):
like writing about aliens, thereare disabled people in the
world--

Yeah.

--contrary to like, popular belief. I'm
kidding, I'm kidding! Um, I justremember being much more like...
it wasn't that I was like, I wasjust like, a bit more jaded, and
a bit more like, closed off,because I saw so many better
representations of disabilitywritten by non-disabled people.

(51:44):
I was like, "just stop writing,we'll do it ourselves." But
like, the disabled communityshouldn't have to take that
mantle. And I've learned that weshouldn't have to take that
mantle if we don't want to. Imean, we can write whatever we
want to write. I mean, I writeabout disabled stories because
I'm like, "this is what I wantto write right now." But I do

(52:04):
have plays inside my head thatdon't even mention disabilities,
and can be played, like thecharacters can be played by
either non-disabled people ordisabled people.

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that sort
of ties back into what I wassaying at the start of this
conversation. That, you know,the ideal for disability
representation... you know, Iobviously don't presume to speak
for everybody, but I at leastthink that I can speak for you
and I, Nicole,

Yeah.

I think that our, our ideal of disability
representation is having morestories about disabled people in
the canon in general, morestories about disabled people
that do not center on disabilityin the canon, and more
opportunities for disabledartists to play roles that are

(52:58):
not specifically written to bedisabled, because there is such
a vast spectrum of whatdisability and what life with a
disability looks like in realitythat deserves to be reflected in
our storytelling.

Yeah. Also, can I, can I put one more on there
as well?

Yeah!

More opportunities for disabled
people behind the scenes. So wecan have a seat at the table,
the... the eponymous table thateverybody's talking about. Like
we even bring our own chairs,sometimes! It's great. Like, we
don't need much! We just needthe chance to, you know, make

(53:39):
our own art. And also, ifsomebody needs, you know, a
different point of view, we havea different point of view,
literally, for some of us,because I sit down all the time
all I see are everybody'sasses... everybody's asses,
that's my eye-line you guys. Um,sorry mom. Sorry. Um, Alethea,

(54:03):
have you seen any improvementsin the industry in the last
couple of years? I know I have,but I wanted to know if you have
as well.

Absolutely.
You know, I think, especiallyworking here in Canada... So
it's interesting because I, Iwent to theatre school in the
United States, I started mycareer as a theatre artist in
the United States, I workedthere for a couple of years. But
I am Canadian, and I moved backto Canada a couple of years ago.
And it's always interesting tome to compare the differences

(54:36):
between working in theatre andentertainment in the United
States and, working in theatreand entertainment in Canada. And
one of the big things that I'venoticed is the difference in
disability representation in theUnited States, and the
difference in disabilityrepresentation in Canada. And I
think that part of that has todo with the fact that the United

(54:59):
States has a very robust federalaccessibility legislation, the
Americans with Disabilities Act,whereas there is no federal
accessibility legislation herein Canada,

I did not know that. I did not know that, oh my
gosh.

We do not, we do not have federal
accessibility legislation here.
They are in the process ofbringing the Accessible Canada
Act into law, but that is onlygoing to affect certain kinds of
businesses and certaingovernment entities, so there's
not accessibility legislationthat touches everything in the
way that the Americans withDisabilities Act does. You know,
in Canada, we have provinces inthe same way that the United

(55:41):
States has states, so I live inthe province of Ontario and we
happen to have a provincial lawhere called the AODA, so the
Accessibility for Ontarians withDisabilities Act. And that was a
law that came into effectprobably about 10-15 years ago
to accomplish many of the thingsthat the ADA accomplishes. But

(56:02):
it will not be fully in effectuntil 2025. And so, you know,
all to say that's like a longexplanation about Canadian
politics that you may or may notneed, Scott, feel free to, you
know, take only what is relevantof this...

No, I love it.
I love it.

All to say, it's interesting to me because I
feel like when I moved back fromthe US to re-establish my career
in Canada, I did notice that Ifelt that there were more
opportunities for disabledartists south of the border, and
that there were more theaterswho were more willing to cast

(56:47):
disabled artists in the US andmore theaters who were more
willing to program work bydisabled artists in the US than
there was here in Canada. But asI've been back in Canada for the
past three years I have noticeda lot of improvements. I have
seen a lot of theaters adjustingtheir language in their casting

(57:07):
calls, and in their calls forsubmissions, and in their
program announcements, sayingthings like "we prize a
human-centric work environment,if you need access needs met to
participate in this process, letus know," or saying things like
"we are very much seekingsubmissions from deaf, disabled,
neuro-diverse artists as part ofthis process." So you know, I am

(57:31):
noticing more and more awarenessfrom the community. And I am
noticing more and more instancesof relationship building.
Because I think it's importantto remember that when we work in
theater, all of us are playingthe long game.

Right.

All of our careers are predicated on
relationships. And all of ourcareer-moves are, you know, made
possible by meetings that we mayhave had six months ago, a year
ago, two years ago. And so it'sinteresting to see now that

(58:14):
people are investing more inthose relationships, so that
hopefully, three years from thismoment, we are going to see more
disabled artists on stagebecause those theaters now are
taking those steps to say, "Hey,we really want to meet these
artists, we really want toinvest in these artists, we
really want to create theconditions so that artists of

(58:35):
all stripes can succeed in ourinstitutions." And hopefully,
that will bear a lot of fruit.

Yeah, no, that's, that sounds great. Also,
all of the Canadian politics Ireally loved. Um, cuz, well, I
thought you guys were like,straights ahead of us in terms
of like, you know,accessibility, but it's...

Sure.
There's a reason why people saythat the Americans with
Disabilities Act is a landmarkpiece of human rights
legislation. And it's becausealmost all of the disability
rights legislation that has comeafter it, in almost every
jurisdiction around the world,was based on the ADA. Large
portions of AODA here in Ontarioare based on things that were

(59:22):
learned from the Americans withDisabilities Act.

Wow.

So you know, it's... In some ways, yes, it is
disappointing that Canada doesnot have the same degree of
disability legislation thatAmerica has had for 30 years. On
the other hand, in some ways, itis helpful, because we've had 30
years to watch America and say,"this is what works and this is

(59:50):
what doesn't, here is how we aregoing to have our own
legislation that addresses theunique factors that we have
going on in this province and inthis country." You know, would I
say that the AODA is completelysuccessful as a piece of
legislation? No. But I alsoacknowledge that it won't be
fully in effect for at least thenext four years, and I'm looking

(01:00:16):
forward to seeing how thingschange in this province, and in
this country, and in ourindustry, just as, as our
understanding of accessibilitydeepens and deepens. Because I
feel like, I do feel thatsocially, even in a way that I
did not feel five years ago inthe United States, I do feel

(01:00:40):
like there's a, there's abigger, and maybe some of this
is attributed to the pandemic,because I think that there is a
deeper understanding ofdisability now, in society, than
there was maybe even like fiveyears ago when I was in the US.

Nicole Zimmerer (01:01:00):
Yes.

Alethea Bakogeorge (01:01:00):
And I think some of that maybe does have to
do with the pandemic, because Iknow that some of the
experiences that we have allbeen going through as a society
during COVID-19 have been thingsthat the disability community
has been dealing with for years.

Yeah.

And so, there has been a moment over the
past 14 months for disabledpeople to step into those
positions of leadership andadvocacy that they so rightly
deserve--

Yes.

--and to speak to society as a whole and
say, "Actually, the things thatyou are experiencing right now
that are so difficult to dealwith, these are the things that
disabled people have beendealing with for years at a
time, in some instances forpeople's entire lives." And I do
think that society as a whole isstarting to become more aware of

(01:01:55):
the place that disability has inour culture and how we need to
be more cognizant of making oursociety more accessible. Because
it benefits everybody, and itactually harms all of us when
our society is not moreaccessible.

I totally agree. Um, I have one more
question for you. Alethea, Ikeep reading articles that say
that Hollywood is going to havea "disability revolution." What
are your thoughts on thatstatement?

I mean, I certainly hope so..!

Yeah.

I, you know, I think... Yeah, you know, I
certainly hope that Hollywoodhas a "disability revolution." I
certainly hope that that meansthat in the next 10 years, that
we are going to see moredisabled talent in front of the
camera, that we are going to seemore disabled talent behind the
camera, that we are going to seemore disabled talent in writers

(01:02:53):
rooms, that we are going to seemore disabled talent becoming
incredible stars across avariety of mediums. However, I
do think that it's going torequire a great deal of
reckoning from the entertainmentindustry as a whole.

Yeah.

Because I think that the entertainment
industry moves at such apunishing pace for everyone.

Mm-hm, yeah.

You know, it is not lost on me that in
theatre, and to some degree infilm and television as well, we
work incredibly punishingschedules. In theatre, you know,
the six day work week is stillstandard. In film and
television, working through atraditional weekend, and you
know, doing a shoot at three inthe morning is completely

(01:03:43):
acceptable and not at allunheard of. And I think that we
need to acknowledge, as anindustry, that if we want to
have a "disability revolution,"in Hollywood or in any facet of
the entertainment industry, weneed to create the conditions
for people to succeed.

Yeah.

And those conditions might not necessarily
be the way that we have alwaysmade art. It might not be
working six days a week becausethat's the way that we can cram
the most amount of usable hoursinto a process. It might
actually be extendingeverybody's contract by a week,
so that you can work a five dayrehearsal week, and yes, that

(01:04:26):
does mean you're paying peoplemore and getting less stuff
done. But that means that thework is more sustainable for
everybody else. And I thinkthat, you know, those conditions
need to be met in a variety offacets of the industry before we
can even consider truly having a"disability revolution." Because

(01:04:48):
you have to consider like, arevolution at what cost? Like,
do you want a disabilityrevolution if only certain
people can push their bodies orpush their mind in a certain way
to be able to make that work? Orwould you rather just reform the
entire industry to make it moreaccessible and sustainable for

(01:05:10):
everybody, so that everybody'swork can be valued, so that
everybody has the chance to beworking at the top of their
game, instead of just theprivileged few who can afford to
push themselves so far to makequote-unquote "great art." I
would rather our industry justbe a little bit more kind and a

(01:05:30):
little bit more gentle.

Wow. Wow, I like, you hit the nail on the
head, girl. I don't... You'recorrect. You are correct. Well,
I honestly, I think that's agreat way to wrap up this
amazing episode. Alethea, I'm soglad you had the time to come
talk to me. So Alethea, whatupcoming projects do you have it

(01:05:57):
we can perhaps plug for you onthis great podcast of ours?

Yeah, in addition to my work as an actor
that we've been talking abouttoday, I'm also a full time arts
administrator, and I work forThe Musical Stage Company, which
is Canada's leadingnot-for-profit musical theatre
organization. And we have a lotof really exciting accessibility
initiatives coming up thissummer that I am so excited to
get to share. So if you'recurious about any of those, you

(01:06:25):
can visit musical stage atwww.musicalstagecompany.com. And
if you'd like to keep up withme, you can always follow me on
social media, I'm @AletheaMBeverywhere, so Twitter,
Instagram.

She's really funny on Twitter, you guys.
She's really funny.

Oh, thank you.

You're welcome.

Come hang out, it'll be great.

Yeah, yeah! Alethea, thank you so much for
being here, this was a fantasticepisode. I'm so glad we had this
time to talk and hopefully wecan do it again soon.

Thanks so much for having me. Hopefully
the next time that we dosomething like this, we'll get
to be in person.

That would be incredible, actually, I would...
I would love that.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Break A Leg! And
thank you to our guest, Alethea,for joining us today.
Follow us on Instagram andTwitter @breakalegpod, that's
break a leg, P-O-D. Let us knowwhat you thought of the episode

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I'm Nicole Zimmerer and I willsee you next time.

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