Playwriting with Adrienne Dawes

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicole Zimmerer (00:17):
Welcome to Break A Leg! A podcast that
explores the relationshipbetween disability and the arts.
I'm your host, Nicole Zimmerer,and on today's episode our guest
is Adrienne Dawes. Adrienne is awriter, producer, and teaching
artist from Fayetteville,Arkansas. Hi, Adrienne!

Adrienne Dawes (00:34):
Hello!

How are you?

I'm doing great! Thanks for having me.

Thanks for being on the pod. I'm so excited
for you to be here!

Yes! I know, I'm a big fan. [Laughs]

Thank you. I'm also a big fan. So the first
segment that we usually do isSpilling the Disabili-Tea where
we talk about historical orcurrent events happening in the
disabled community. And theDisabili-Tea we have today is
that, most of our listeners knowthat the Olympics just happened,

(01:09):
but what you might not know isthat the Paralympics, which are
games that start after theOlympics are starting on, they
start on August, I think it's24th of this year, and they go
until September 5. And somethingthat's really exciting about
this year, is that it's also thefirst year that Paralympians and

(01:33):
Olympians are getting equal pay.
So whenever they win a metal,apparently they get a lot of
money, which I'm like, "That'scool!" Personally, I don't have
any stock in sports-ball.

[Laughs]

But hey!

Me neither.

At least they're getting paid.

Yeah.

And equal pay is a big deal when it comes to
disability, the disabledcommunity, 'cause, I think it's,
I don't know, if you know, theamount... I think it's like,
it's legal to pay disabledworkers, like 50 cents on the
dollar in some states? In moststates. Do you know that number?

Oh, no, no...

Yeah.

But I mean, that sounds right. [Laughs]

Yeah. It's a really big incentive for me to
join the workforce. Really.
Um...

[Laughs]

That was sarcasm.

[Laughs] I got it. [Laughs]

Thank you! So yeah, that's our Disabili-Tea.
Paralympians and Olympiansgetting equal pay. It's a big
deal. And I just wanted tocelebrate that because sometimes
our Disabili-Tea is not funDisabili-Tea, but I think this
one is pretty cool.

Yeah, something positive. Some positive tea.

Yeah.

[Laughs]

Yeah, that's the best kind of tea like, it's,
um...

Yeah.

It's sweet tea, it's sweet tea.

Yeah.

We're both southerners.

We understand.
[Laughs]

Do you like sweet tea?

No, I like the idea of it.

Yeah.

[Laughs] Do I like the taste of it? Absolutely
not.

Right. Exactly.

[Laughs]

No, me either.
Me either. I, like, every time Itell somebody, I'm from Texas
they're like, "So you drink alot of sweet tea, right?" And
I'm like "No..."

Actually, not.

No.

[Laughs]

I do ride a horse to school every day,
though. So.

Yeah.

Um.

[Laughs]

So, Adrienne, um, I ask this with every guest,
like, who are you? What's yourdeal, what's your damage?

Who am I? I'm a playwright, I'm a person. I'm a
goofy person, at least on theinternet, maybe not all the time
in-person. But I'm right now ingrad school. So that's kind of
like a big part of my life isjust being a student, being a
student again after, like, 15years since I've been an
undergrad. So that's a big partof my life. But I come from

(03:53):
Austin, Texas, originally. AndI'm in Fayetteville for another
year and a half or so. And,yeah, I try to write about found
families and fluid identity andall the silly ways we try to
find love and acceptance. So, ina nutshell.

That's beautiful.

That's my elevator pitch. Yeah, thank you.
I practiced.

That's your elevator pitch?

Yeah.

Do I have an elevator pitch?

[Laughs]

That's the question. I should have an
elevator pitch.

They always make you do that.

In grad school?

Yeah. They always make you like practice
that. Yeah. Or like any kind ofarts, like admin
entrepreneurship thing, they'relike, "Okay, you're in an
elevator," like, "How do youexplain who you are?" and, I
guess that's how I would explainit.

That's fair.

[Laughs]

My professors never had me do that. I feel
like I was robbed. But--

[Laughs]

--also at the same time, I feel like if I get
in an elevator with somebody, Ireally don't have to explain
myself. They can just look at meand be like, "I know! I know
your brand." And I'm like,"Thank you."

[Laughs]

Um... "Hire me, please."

Yeah, yeah.

Um, "you need me."

Yes, yeah.

So how, how does disability factor into your
life?

So I'm big sister of, uh, there's eight
children total in my family. SoI am number two of eight, and
all my siblings are disabled. Somy whole upbringing I've been
largely influenced by, you know,growing up alongside my siblings
and experiencing the worldalongside them, which has been

(05:31):
really, really interesting. Alot of caretakers coming in and
out of our home. We also werelike a rehabilitative home. So
we were fostering kids withdisabilities for like, most of
my childhood. So again, kidscoming in and out and different
therapists and so it's like,such a big part of my, like,
formation as a human. And as anadult it's very different

(05:53):
because, you know, I'm notaround my family 24/7. So it's
like--

Yeah.

--a different experience now, but yeah,
really, really watching my, mysiblings grow up and sort of the
challenges that they've had, andalso just like the delight in
watching my sister, for example,she, she has a lot of things
going on, but she's like blindfrom the brain and has some
other neurological disabilities,but like, she's invented her own

(06:20):
language, and like, she has likea really interesting sense of
humor. And she tries to speakSpanish, which is also adorable,
you know, so she's just reallyfun, uh man, it's like, it's
such a trip to be able to like,joke with her. [Laughs]

Yeah.

And like, hear her form a joke. It's like, it's
like a different rhythm.
Totally. And like her languageis so different. But, you know,
I'm a dramatist, so like, I lovelanguage, and I love words, and
I love, I love the way that sheprocesses language.

Yeah.

That's really cool.

Um, can I ask how your upbringing like,
affects your art now?

Yeah, I mean, I... I will say that when I was
a younger writer, I was trying,like, I thought, what would be a
cool [laughs] stunt or trick asa playwright is like, I would
write something so far frommyself, and then, and but, but
the art would come in by makingit very intimate, you know what
I mean? Like, that, to me waslike--

Yeah.

--like being a good writer. And so for a long
time, I didn't write about myfamily at all. I didn't write
about my upbringing, or mysiblings, or my parents or
anything. And then I think justrecently... you know, because a
lot of things you take forgranted, it's just like normal
to you, you know what I mean?

Mm-hm.

I'm like, yeah, my, my siblings all have a lot
of adaptive care, or likeequipment, and I changed my
brother's diaper, and I feedpeople and that's normal going
home to me, it wasn't untillike... um, and my family's not
very mobile, too, so we're notreally in public that much,
because of how difficult it isto move people around. But like,

(07:47):
people, I don't think reallyhave a window into that aspect
of my life. And so just, I don'tknow, just more recently, I've
been like, "Man, I'm kind ofsitting on like, a goldmine."
[Laughs]

Yeah.

I have all these experiences that to me feel
normal, but like, I talk toother people and their eyes,
like, I mean like they havelike, no concept of what this
life is like. And it's like,"Oh, well, I can show you!"
[Laughs] Or, "I can show you theparts that I know, or I've seen
through my siblings' eyes." Somore recently, disability has

(08:18):
shown up in my work, I have thisplay Hairy and Sherri that has a
character... I'm thinking youmight... I'm thinking, you know
this play because like we knoweach other from the... was it
Workshop Theatre's..?

Yes, yes.

What was that called? The "Spring Intensive"
or something?

Um...

"Summer Intensive"?

I think it was the Spring Intensive.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So you kind of, you've known that
play a little bit.

It might have been the summer? I don't know,
time doesn't exist anymore.

Yeah, I feel like it was called one thing,
but then it was in another....

Maybe, maybe...

[Laughs] Um, you know, we know each other,
though. That's...

Yeah.

That's the important thing to get across,
we know each other and you kindof know that play. And, so yeah,
more recently, I've been like,"Oh, I wonder if the case
manager might also be disabled."That might be an interesting
aspect to bring forward too.
But, um, but yeah, that's thefirst time I really had a
character, where I was like,borrowing things from my
siblings. Where I was like, "Oh,some of their behaviors. I'm
gonna, I'm gonna throw into thischaracter." Um, and it's been

(09:14):
really yeah, it's been reallyinteresting, and um, now the
more that I've done moreresearch into, especially like
theatre and disability and like,I did this like presentation for
my class where I had to, likepresent about disability in the
arts, and sort of like theoverlay of like, feminist
theatre, like looking at bodiesin different ways and

(09:35):
presentation of bodies, etc,etc. and, which is fascinating,
and I can't recall any of it![Laughs] So don't test me on it,
I'd have to go look in my GoogleDrive, and I can send you
articles, but, uh...

That would be fantastic.

[Laughs] There's some great stuff, I mean, I got
to read some great stuff. And Ithink the thing that really
like, opened my eyes as a writeris like well, one in four people
in the US have a disability,particularly in the South.

Mm-hm.

How often am I writing about the South?

Yeah.

And how many of the characters have I written
that are disabled? Like not,nothing reflecting reality. So
that really for me was like,"Oh, okay, I really need to,"
you know, "I need to step mygame up."

Yeah.

For sure, in that regard.

And like, um...
there's this whole idea of like,you know, your family can't
present themselves, or it's veryhard for them to go out in
public and show people, this isour life.

Mm-hm.

And it's a good life.

Yeah.

But these are the obstacles, and the, this is
what we deal with. I don't wantto say they're "obstacles,"
because like, not to be like,"obstacles don't exist," because
they do, but like, I feel like--

Yeah.

--a lot of the time when I'm talking to like a
non-disabled person, and they'retalking to me about disability,
they're like, "Oh, I don't knowhow you do it. Like, I would
have such a hard time." And I'mlike, "You really wouldn't.
You'd just figure out a new wayto do things."

Yeah.

Um...

Yeah.

But I feel like because your family isn't
mobile, you have the opportunityto like, show people what it's
like for them and bringawareness and, you know,
understanding and kindness tothem--

Yeah.

--through your art. And I think that's
beautiful.

Hopefully. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the goal anyway, yeah. [Laughs]

Can you talk about Hairy and Sherri, because
it's a beautiful play.

Thank you.

I read it, when we worked on it in the workshop,
I was just blown away. I waslike, Oh my gosh!"

Oh thanks...

Um, yeah! So.

Thank you so much. Yeah, it's... and it's
still in process, you know?
Um... you know! [Laughs] Youknow how long it takes to get a
play even like--

Yeah.

--to where you feel it's ready, much less like
get anybody else interested init, but um... Hairy and Sherri
is about a interracial couplewho decide, who're like very
wealthy, well-off, they'reliving in East Austin,
gentrified East Austin, and theydecide to adopt a kid with
disabilities who's like comingthrough the foster care system,
because one of the members ofthe couple, the wife, she, she

(12:09):
and her brother were both inlike CPS system. Her brother had
a disability and they were like,he's kind of like lost in the
system. She like, they weren'tplaced together, she hasn't been
able to find him. So it was sortof, sort of this like, very
vulnerable aspect of her. But italso means that she has
experienced like, caretaking,and uh, so I mean, in a way it's

(12:31):
really, it's really a hugetragedy and also a horror film
kind of wrapped into one becausethey end up, they end of
adopting this kid and he has,his needs are really high, and
there's like this overlay of notonly are there like the
challenges with his disability,but then also like, there's so
much trauma on top of it.

Yeah.

And that's the thing as a writer, I'm trying,
because it's all fictional, it'snot, like I didn't, I wasn't
like, "Oh, I have a diagnosis,and then I'm going to write a
character." I wrote a characterwith specific behaviors and now
I'm having to do thebacktracking because now-- and
it's a fair, fair dramaturgyquestion of like people, "Well,
what's his disability?" And I'mlike, "Hurh!" [Laughs] "It could
be this, it could be this."And--

Right.

--even more recently, someone was like, "He
could not have a disability. Andthis could all be trauma." You
know what I mean? And I waslike, "Okay, wow, I didn't even
think about that."

Yeah.

I don't know if that's the direction I want to
go. You know?

Yeah.

I just like to kind of think about it more.
But, uh.

Because, well, who is, um, is his name Rashuan?
In, in...

Ryshi. Yeah.

Ryshi.

Yeah, yeah.

I like that it's clear that he has a
disability, but you don't knowwhat it is. There's something
about it that I'm like, "Youdon't need to know." Um...

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, um, I will say that, like, I've...
because like I said, thequestions come up from...
producers are asking becausethey're like, "How do we cast
this?" You know?

Yeah.

And I'm kind of like, you know, I haven't even.
To be honest, we've never had adisabled actor play, in
readings, play that, play eitherrole, you know. And I can see, I
can see a case for making, inthis play, there's like two
characters that play the samechild. One is an adult actor,
which is like, how the husbandsees, how the white husband sees

(14:14):
this black child as like, as afully-grown adult. And then
there's like a child actor thatwould come out at the very end.
And um, so I can see a case forlike, the adult actor, because
it's already an abstraction,it's already like, he's like a
12 year old kid and he [thehusband] sees like a fully-grown
six-foot tall man. So there'slike a little bit of wee-- like,

(14:36):
uh, well not, not "wee-lay,"leeway, that's the word!
[Laughs] There's a little bit ofleeway [laughs] with that, but
then you know, I again, it'slike a very fair question. And
so I've been talking to people,like I've been giving the script
to people that do the diagnosiseither like through, they either
work in like a counselingsetting or I guess a medical

(14:58):
doctor too who also does likediagnoses. And so that was
interesting talking to thembecause they were like reading
through the script and like,"Okay, well these behaviors
suggest this." And like, evensome of the language, they're
like, "Oh, well Ryshiunderstands," gosh I forget what
part of the play but there waslike, Ryshi responses to
something. And his, his, hislanguage is very, very simple

(15:20):
and kind of broken, broken in adifferent way. But they were
like, "Oh, his cognition tounderstand what that term is and
then to come back with like aretort like suggests this is a
higher-functioning person." AndI was like, "Okay, wow, I
hadn't..." you know what I mean?
Like, it's just a weird--

Mm-hm.

--gray zone of like, my inspiration is coming
from a real person and the waythat they chop up language just
because that's the way my sisterspeaks. But like, of course it's
theatricalized because if youput, if you literally put my
sister on stage, and you werelike, "Tell me about your past
trauma," she would talk about[laughs] like--

Yeah.

--she doesn't have a concept of yesterday, you
what I mean? Like, that's justnot... for the dramatic
purposes, like I need, I need acharacter who--

Right.

--who has these specific things, right? So, and
it is this like, how much of themirror do you show, that is 100%
accuracy? I'm sure, like, youhave this with every character,
right? Like, how much of it isabout like, this is a true,
like, I'm holding a mirror up todisability or race or whatever.
And how much of it is like,well, theatrically, I'm working

(16:23):
in the space that's a little bitmore like fluid, you know?

Yeah.

And I don't have the right [laughs] answer to it.
Other than, like, I'm justtrying to... and because it
hasn't been produced yet, I'm ina good spot where I can get
those outside perspectives, youknow, of like...

Exactly.

"Well, it could be this, it could be that..."
You know?

I mean, I write characters that are mainly
physically disabled, because,um--

Mm-hm.

--that's just what I know, and I constantly
ask myself, "Am I just showingthe audience a palatable
representation?" Like, I'm notshowing them, at least as of
right now, I haven't shown them,like, the the dirtier side of,
of disability. And I do mean,like, you know, how do we go to

(17:08):
the bathroom? How do we, likeif, if there's a fall, and we
literally are bleeding? Andlike, 'cause there's...

Hmm...

A lot of my friends are like, "You should
show that part. It's animportant part of like, your
life." And I'm like, "Yeah, butthat's a private thing for me."

Yeah. Yeah.

It's not that I'm ashamed of it. It's just
like, you don't need to know mybusiness! You know? Like...

Yeah.

But like, but it's also like, because you want
to have a real representation ofdisability, but you also,
there's a protective thing. Um,and also, you don't know how the
audience is gonna react to...
you don't know how the audienceis gonna react. So.

Yeah. And with casting, it's like, I don't know
what actors are gonna be showingup, too. I mean, I, I know it's
a perfect answer because, thisis the thing I understand is
like, if you write too broad ofa character, and you're like,
"Oh, they're like, vaguely, thisthing I don't really know
about." And I fully understandthat criticism of like, "No, no,
no, like, it's not just like,you know, their type of

(18:14):
disability, their challenges,their strengths," like, those
are all very specific thingsthat are going to inform
character 100%.

Yeah.

If someone has been disabled since birth,
versus like, an accident thathappens, those are like--

Yeah.

--different experiences, and like, having
that specificity to a characterto a story could be really,
really, really important.

Yeah.

Um. But like, with casting, it's like, it's
like, almost like I don't knowwho, especially like this is,
this character is supposed to be12, but I really honestly
imagine probably someone in highschool or college who is just a
smaller size would probably playthis character. And like, I
don't know who's going to comein. I would, I would rather have
like an incredible actor comein, and I start to adapt that

(18:56):
character to fit that actor.

Mm-hm.

Versus like, I have this tiny box... because I
do, I mean like the feedbackI've gotten at least from like
the medical community, which Iknow is that all the
perspective, that's oneperspective, has been like, "It
can be a couple of differentthings." And so I kind of like
that. "Okay, it could be acouple of different things,"
means the door is a little bitmore open.

Right.

You know, like, we know we have some mobility,
we know he, he says that he canread. But it's also a question
mark, like, "Can he reallyread?" [Laughs] Like is he
saying he can read or can hereally read? You know. There's
like lots of options, and itfeels like... you've read my
work, I have a lot ofspecificity and like stage
directions, and like costumingand all these things, and... I

(19:40):
guess what I'm trying to do,whether it's a cop-out or not,
I'm trying to like leave opensome space for the director and
for the actors to kind of fillin, a little bit. [Laughs]

That makes total sense.

But I'm sure--

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm sure I'll have, I'll across that
bridge. You know, wheresomeone's gonna be like point
blank, like, "Why didn't youmake a choice about this?" And
I'll have to go [laughs]"Because I heard my sister's
voice and then I made everythingup around that?" [Laughs]

[Laughs]

That's literally, you know. An answer.

It's a weird, it's a weird tightrope kind of
situation.

Yeah.

Cause you were talking about like, if somebody
has been disabled since birthversus if somebody hasn't been
disabled since birth. Andbecause I have characters who
are physically disabled, I havelike a much, like wheelchair
users, there's a range. There'sambulatory users, there's--

Mm-hm.

--people like me, who's, I'm basically in my
wheelchair most hours of theday. Except if you're my
therapist, then I have beenusing my walker, I promise!

[Laughs]

Um... [Laughs] Uh, but I've noticed that the
way like my friends who havebeen disabled since birth, play
a character, and then I havefriends who haven't been
disabled since birth play thesame character differently. And
I'm like--

Mm-hm.

"Oh, that's fascinating!" Because like--

Mm-hm, yeah.

--there's a different level of emotion when
it comes to like, I don't know.
I mean, I just had a character,she was very, very angry, and my
friend who's been disabled sincebirth tapped in that anger. And
then I had another friend playit who didn't happen to that
anger? And I was like,"Fascinating."

Hmm...
Interesting.

So is that, is that--

Yeah, yeah.

--a question for me as a playwright? Or is
that just an actor choice?

Mm-hm.

You know?

Yeah. That is a really good question. Yeah. And
can it be both? Like, candifferent productions...?

Right.

You know, like, different directors or designers
bring out these differentelements and like--

Yeah.

--can the story hold more than one truth? You
know.

That's the question with playwriting.

Ideally, I would say, "Yes." You know?

Yeah.

Like, ideally, there are lots of lenses, you
know. Within reason, we're nottalking about people rewriting
your play, or doing it totallyoff, you know, off what's on the
page. But can there be more thanone truth--

Yeah.

--within the same story?

One, more than one perspective. You know, like,
I think the reason thatShakespeare has survived, as
long as he has is like, thereare so many different takes for
his plays, because he was justwriting about humanity. And
disability is part of--

Yeah.

--the human experience.

Yeah.

No matter who you are, you're either disabled
or dead at the end of it. So.
Sorry, that was a bit dark.

Yeah.

But, you know.

[Laughs] It's true. [Laughs]

It's true.
Um...

Truth is dark.
[Laughs]

Yeah, and like, I have this series that I'm
doing on TikTok that I-- well, Iposted the first video and then
I got really nervous, so Ideleted it--

Uh-oh. [Laughs]

--but I'm doing a series called "Characters I
Think Are More Interesting WhenThey're Played by Disabled
Performers."

Ooo... That sounds awesome.

I think about Lady M a lot from Mackers.

Oh, yeah.

I'd love to see a disabled Lady Mackers.

[Laughs] "Mackers!" [Laughs]

Um.

That's great.

I don't want to jinx the pod, Adrienne!

Yeah!

I don't wanna have to like...

Oh, true, true, true.

Deal with--

True, true true.

--you know, the Scottish Play juju on the pod!

Great. That's very fair. Yeah, yeah that's
fair.

But yeah, I just, because like, there are so
many different ways that we canbe inclusive with disabilities.
And then, like--

Yeah.

--the powers that be just don't have that big
imagination. So, yeah, um,anyway.

Yeah.

Where was I going with this? That's the
constant question I have.

[Laughs]

Have you thought about, you know, taking
the feedback from the medicalcommunity and deciding on one,
like, one path?

One diagnosis for this character.

Yeah.

Um. I will say like, I feel like it's really
helpful dramaturgy to have, tolike bring to a director and the
team and be like, "Look, thereare a couple of different
options for what this is, andwhat this could look like." And
kind of letting that be theconversation, more than me and
the script. And this is where Iam as of today, you know.

Yeah.

I've got to keep thinking about it. Like I said,
I also thought about, I thoughtvery much about... I don't know
if this guy his last name is itFreeze or Fries test? Where it's
like, you know there's theBechdel Test--

Mm-hm.

--for like feminist work, and there's like
a test for disability in media.
And one of, one of, either, itwas either inspired by this or
just me riffing off of it, whereI was like, "Oh, yeah, there's
only one disabled character onstage in this play." And that's
why I was like, "Well, maybe thecase manager..." Like there's no
reason why Vera--

Right.

--couldn't also be disabled. You know what I
mean? And then there's not likejust one person [laughs] hanging
out there. I mean, especiallybecause this actor is not on
stage for like, most of theplay, to be honest, they just
come out at the end. So yeah, Imean, those are kind of more of
the considerations I'm thinkingabout right now, is like...

Mm-hm.

How to, how to expand the world a little bit
more. But yeah, it basicallybecomes like a horror story of
how these people who are sowell-intentioned and they want
to be the best and they, um...
It ends up in tragedy,unfortunately. But I tried to
leave it, you know, I don't--I'm trying to remember, you've
read drafts that are very old,but like, I've been moving
closer and closer to like anending that there's sort of like

(25:11):
a question mark of like, maybethere's hope? And, and that's,
that's kind of more-- I'd loveit if the audience were split at
the end. And like half theaudience wants to murder the
parents, which is fair becausethey're terrible. They do
terrible things.

Yeah.

They have an option to do great things. And
they, and they both come fromtraumatic backgrounds. And they
both continue to perpetuate thattrauma, which I think is a huge
tragedy.

Yeah.

But I also like, want half the audience to be
like, "There is hope." Justbecause this kid has come from
trauma doesn't mean his life isover.

Yeah.

It doesn't mean he can't find love and have love
in his life. And so I want it tobe that. So I've been inching
towards that more like vague,vague ending is kind of where
we're at right now.

I think that's a fantastic idea, because I
remember when we read it in theworkshop, and I don't know if
this was helpful at all, but Iwas like, "I just, I just want
to knock the parents out."

Yeah. [Laughs]

Not in like-- Knock their heads together and
be like, "Hello?!"

Yeah.

'Cause it just reminded me, a couple years ago,
I saw a video of a couple whowas like wanting to adopt, and
they had this questionnaire oflike, "Would you adopt a child
with Down syndrome? Would youadopt a child on the spectrum?
Would you adopt a child withintellectual needs, physical
needs..." And they just like, Icould see them and I could see,

(26:35):
like them realize that, like,they don't have the bandwidth
for that.

Mm-hm.

And it just, it just broke my heart, because
there are so many kids in thesystem, who do have--

Mm-hm.

--disabilities, and they, ugh, God... oh, my
God.

Yeah. It's extremely difficult to be
placed. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, this play, this play also talks a lot
about race, too. I mean--

Right.

--there's, there's a layer, texture of that
too that also makes it reallychallenging. But you're right,
you know... this is kind of, notrare but like a case where like,
you do have parents who arelike, open to adopting someone
with a disability and then, andthey say that they're prepared,
and they say, they understandand that they're, they're like,
getting themselves ready to carefor this person. And then they

(27:21):
fail to meet their needs. Andum, so that's a huge, I mean
that's obviously, a hugetragedy. But yeah, I mean, I do
want to leave it open. For, Ikeep being like, "Man, if
there's, if there's ever anopportunity to come back to any
of these characters, I'd love tosee that character as an adult."

Yeah.

And like, I imagine Vera takes him home, the
case manager takes him home,even though that's also a
complicated choice, you know?

Yeah. That's also what I imagined because it
was like, "Ugh..." I was like,"At least the kid's not alone,"
you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Are you writing other plays? Because I
know you have Teen Dad and I waswondering if that has disability
in it as well.

I don't think that play does, to be honest.
However, yeah, I mean, it's...
it's never been produced. So Imean, we've actually, yeah.
[Laughs] I've never, we've neverhad like a casting situation
yet.

But it's been published!

Yeah, this is what's weird. Yeah. So Nicole,
this is what's really weird islike it was published before
it's been produced. And uh,that's not normal. [Laughs] But
my agent was like... I'm also,it's like a pandemic. It's like,
what else is going on right now?
So like--

Yeah.

--yeah, I'll take an advance before
Christmas. Are you kidding me?
For sure.

Yeah.

But I also am like, "Man, I know I'm going to
see a production and see like 10things wrong." And then, like,
have that awkward conversationwith the publisher, like, "Can
we please fix this?" I mean, Iread it as much as possible. We
proofed it. I've heard that playread like, that one I've been
developing since like, 2013, youknow, and--

Yeah.

--just no bites on the production end. And so I
just kept doing reading afterreading after reading and trying
to, try to do that. But it doestalk about in terms of family,
and because I'm adopted, all mysiblings and I are adopted. So
it does talk about my familykind of through that, through
that lens, for sure.

Mm-hm.

But yeah, you know, I'm always kind of
tinkering around with stuff. Butit's helpful because I have
school so I have like,deadlines. [Laughs]

Yeah.

You know, you're expected to like, crank out
stuff. So yeah.

Yeah. That's that's a, that's a plus for the
grad school column. Because Idon't have that anymore. I'm
like, "Ugh, I have to set my owndeadlines."

Yeah. Are you writing?

Am I writing?!

[Laughs]

Um, I don't want to say "No," because I feel
like I'm always writing but I'mnot like...

Yeah.

I don't know if my professor [laughs] listens to
this pod. But uh, Rob, if youare listening--

[Laughs]

I have not read a published script in two years.

Okay. [Laughs]

I am writing, I'm not writing theatre right
now. I'm kind of, like, taking abreak from theatre and kind of
like reconfiguring--

Sure.

--everything because, I mean with this whole
like, in 2020 like Broadway andlike theatre around the country,
they were like, "We're gonna bebetter, we're gonna do better,
we're gonna..." when it comes tolike equity and diversity,
and... So they're opening up andI-- like they talk-the-talk, but
I don't know if they're gonnawalk-the-walk.

Mm-hm.

And I've been reading, um, maybe I talked to
you about it, but Quiara Hudeswrote a 2018 article on like,
"I'm taking a break fromtheatre, and this is why."

Yeah.

And it's basically like the same thing. I
love theatre so much. Um, it'skind of breaking my heart a
little bit, so--

Yeah...

--I'm taking a small break.

Oh, fair.

That doesn't mean I'm never gonna write
anything ever again. Because Ihave plays in my head... and
well, since we're talking about,you know, the plays we did in
workshop, you read a--

[Laughs]

--a very, well it's, it's the latest draft of
Eat Your Heart Out, but I'mchanging the entire play.

Whoa!

It's getting like a complete-- yeah.

Cool!

Not like.

Exciting, potentially! [Laughs]

Yes. Yes. So, I mean, like, it's still gonna be
about the three sisters. Butthere's gonna be no men. Um,
which, I'm really proud of that.

Awesome...

No, no men.

[Laughs] Just kidding.

You hear a man in the end scene, but you don't,
you never see...

Huh.

Because it's a play about you know, how the
fact that like, women, even ifwe're not in spaces where a man
is present, like the patriarchyis still like, all around us.

Yeah.

It's gonna be really cool. I'm really excited.
I'm actually, I'm building theplaylist for it right now,
because I need--

Ooo...

--to procrastinate actually writing
the play. So, that's what I'mdoing right now.

That's a good way to do it, too. [Laughs] I
have playlists for plays Ihaven't even written yet.
[Laughs]

Yeah, exactly! Exactly.

It's ridiculous.
You gotta have a playlist.

Right? Right.

[Laughs]

It's like it's a mix between like, witchy,
siren, ambiance things--

Ooo... ok.

--and then like, pop songs where women are
like, "I eat boys forbreakfast." You know what I
mean?

Whoa, fun!

Yeah.

Oh that's great!

It's very man-hater-y. Um...

[Laughs]

Which is on-brand for me, mostly.

[Laughs]

Sorry, Scott.
Um.

[Laughs]

Scott is our producer, by the way. He's a
man, but I don't hate him!

[Laughs] Yes.

Um, and then, I don't know if I talked to you
about this, but the play aboutthe actress who doesn't get the
part, and she kills the entireartistic team?

I think, you ment-- was that gonna be a TV
show?

It, it was like--

Or...

I mean, we talked about this, um--

Okay, maybe I'm confusing it.

I think, because I was talking about like
TV shows I want to do and then Italked about this play, and you
were like, "That could be the TVshow." And I was like,"Correct."

[Laughs]

So, I'm working on that.

Cool.

That's gonna be really interesting, 'cause it's
gonna be less naturalistic.
Like, it's not gonna be settotally in, you know, reality,
which is where I usually, likeI'm very much like grounded in
real life...

Mm-hm.

Slice of life, thing...

Yeah.

But with this play, it's gonna be more
[Twilight Zone sound].

Weird stuff.
That's fun, though! That likedream logic, um, for lack of a
better term, surreal, you know?

Yeah.

It's gunna be really, really fun to play in
that space. That's awesome.

And I'm thinking about Hairy and Sherri
a lot because you said "horror,"and I was like, that is a horror
play.

Yeah.

I want the "actress play" to be like a
horror comedy.

Oh, yeah.

Um, so...

Yeah! So what's funny is, I imagine the posters.
[Laughs]

Yeah.

And I imagine, I don't know if you've seen those,
um, I think they're eitherKabuki or Noh theatre, uh, the
masks? Where like, depending onwhere you stand, they either
look like they're smiling orfrowning. And like, I want an
image of like Hairy and Sherri,where like, depending on where
you're standing, they eitherlook like, like, gorgeous,
funny, cute couple, or liketerrifying.

Yeah.

And um, I have, that's probably the one play I
have... I don't think it's a TVshow, but I do think it could be
a film. I do think it could belike, then you could really amp
up the horror aspects of it, youknow?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the full title for me is "Hairy
and Sherri Are Scary." You know?

Yeah.

If you're adopted, or [laughs] you've
worked with kids in foster careor you're disabled or anyone you
love is disabled, this is ahorror story.

Yes.

Absolutely. But it's also funny. You know...

It was a horror story for me.

Oh, yeah. Yeah! [Laughs] I mean, it's your worst
nightmare--

Yeah. Yeah.

--is like being stuck in that home and then
like... or being, or being like,just discarded so easily. You
know? That's, that's terrifyingto think about--

Yeah.

--if you're, you know, coming from an adopted
situation, the number-one fearis that you, you know, get
abandoned. So, yeah. Yeah. But--

Yeah!

--there's also jokes! [Laughs] It's also a
comedy, which is hard toexplain, but, uh... But yeah,
I'm really hopeful for that one.
It's just this gosh dangPanasonic, it's hard to tell...

[Laughs]

You know, nothing's really open. So it's
just like... I feel like oncethings are for real, in a
tangible way, that play could dothings. But--

Yeah.

--right now, there's not a lot it can do. So.
It's a bummer. [Laughs]

I mean, it's a horror play, but it is so funny.
And I, I'm, like, I'm constantlythinking about how funny
disability actually is.

Yeah. [Laughs]

But you know, when you talk to like, somebody
who is non-disabled and has nocontext for disability, they're
like, "How can you laugh? Thisis so serious."

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

"This is like, the most tragic thing to ever
actually happen." And I'm like,no, it's hilarious. Trust me,
like!

[Laughs]

I'm trying to think of something that's
terribly funny, but I can't, butlike--

[Laughs]

--I will.

It's hard to, on the spot. All I just think about
my brother, um, my brother hascerebral palsy and uses a chair
and like, he and I growing upwould always be like, basically
fucking with people.

Yeah!

You know what I mean? Like, because they would
treat him like a baby, you know?
And I'd be like, "Dude..."[Laughs]

Yeah.

We would have a lot of fun in public because
people just get so fragile. Youknow what I mean? Like, they
just--

Yeah.

--assume that my siblings are super fragile, and
like, and then he and I wouldlike, I can't remember, I also
can't remember a thing. But Ithink one thing we would always,
I would always be like, "Uh, gosit down!" or something [laughs]
like that.

Exactly!

And people will be like, "Oh, my God!" you know?
But like, that's our, likethat's our joke. [Laughs] It's
okay, because we make that joke,you know?

Yeah.

[Laughs] Or that we look like a group home
[laughs], when we're out inpublic.

[Laughs]

And that was my favorite one, was like-- I had a
stand up act that I used to doand I used to talk about how my
mom was like, the pageant queen,because she would like, be
signing like, "Thank you. Thisis my family." [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Because none of us look, none of us look alike--

Yeah.

--and, we'd, people just stare at us in
public. They'd be like, "Wait asecond..." 'Cause, also 'cause
we're like, the adoption thing,and like, everyone's a different
race. So like, people arealready like, trying to make--

Sense of it.

--some connection between us. And so
they're like, you must be agroup home.

Yeah, yeah. No, it's um...

[Laughs]

Something that I love to do is-- well, I have
two, I have two things that I dowith new people. When I meet
somebody new. Within like, thesecond I meet them, I make a
cripple joke. And I just seetheir face go completely
paralyzed.

[Laughs]

It's my favorite thing. And it really
tells me... like it's abarometer for me, like, "Is this
person cool?"

Mm-hm.

Or, like, am I gonna have to--

Yeah, yeah.

--treat them with kid gloves for the next 10
minutes?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Before they like, unclench their butt.

[Laughs]

Yeah. Um, and I just started to do this
recently, but I like to remindpeople, that they're gonna,
they're all going to be disabledone day.

Oh, yeah. Yeah! [Laughs]

And just to see--

See what happens, to--

--their face.

[Laughs]

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah!

It's my favorite thing.

Yeah.

And I think that comes out, from more, like,
I'm a little bit more angryright now because like, nobody's
like, doing anything right.
Like, the pandemic was supposedto be over!

Yeah.

We're all supposed to get vaccinated!

Yeah. [Sigh] That's a huge-- I mean, I think
a lot about, and this is thismassive disabling event too.

Yeah.

And so I'm really curious what happens. I
mean, obviously, we think aboutit in the art space, because
we're like artists, but like,just overall, like, there's
going to be more people that aredisabled--

Yeah.

--you know? And have specific needs that, you
know, it's kind of like TBD witha lot of the like medical stuff,
so...

Mm-hm.

Repercussions or like long-lasting effects of
COVID and stuff, so um... Yeah,I mean, you'd hope, in a
optimistic side you'd hope thatthat opens people's minds a
little bit more to accessibilityand a host of different issues.
Like we were talking aboutemployment and pay and--

Yeah.

--all those things, but then there's also
the part of me that's like,"Man, I don't know." [Laughs] I
don't, I haven't felt a wholelot of hope--

Yeah?

--to be perfectly honest. Not like it's,
it's a day to day thing, youknow? It's like ask me tomorrow,
and I'll feel a little bitbetter, but--

Exactly.

--you know, it's just um... Yeah, it'll be really
interesting to see what happenswith all the, all of the
concerns we're wrestling withright now.

It's gonna be really interesting. And all the
mental stuff going on.

Mm-hm.

The first time I went out in public, I was
terrified.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I was vaccinated and I had a mask, but
I was still so scared. I waslike, "Don't touch me. Don't...
Six feet! Six feet, dude!"

Yeah...

And I do, I think, I think my chair, my big
power chair is like a cage. So,I...

[Laughs]

And I can ram anybody who gets too close.

Yeah, yeah. You got a little barrier between
you. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

But still, yeah.
It's changed a lot of like,anxiety, like just, you know,
anxiety that you have anyway, oryou might have anyway socially,
but then now-- Yeah, like, I'meven more isolated, I think. You
know, there was that like briefbit of hope when you got
vaccinated, where you were like,"Okay, well, maybe things..."
Like I just needed a light atthe end of the tunnel. Like, I
knew--

Yeah.

I knew things would be slow and like not to
get my hopes too high. But like,I just needed to see some
change. And so like, that feltlike, "Oh, that's some change!"
And, and now it's like, youknow, I got to like, see some
friends. I went to a karaokebar, which sounds insane now...
[laughs]

Yeah.

Especially because we were all sharing the
same mic. And like, I was justsort of, I was like internally
though, like, trying to enjoythe experience and like be with
my friends, but like, inside Iwas like, "Aaah! There's germs
everywhere!" [Laughs]

[Laughs]

"I know we're vaccinated, but like, there's no
little condoms on the mic?"Like...

[Laughs]

You know, we're gonna share from...? Uh it just,
it's just things you neverthought you would be like,
freaked out about, but...

Yeah.

Um, I spend time alone a lot.

Yeah.

Because I just kind of can't deal.

Can I ask what your karaoke song is?

[Laughs]

Your go-to karaoke song?

Um... Okay, there's lots of answers to that.
[Laughs] I should have said inmy intro, like "A portable
karaoke enthusiast" is also oneof my strengths or one of my
identities.

Good to know.

I have one of those portable mics and I'm
happy to take it anywhere, I canmake the party happen anywhere.
Um, if it's starting out early Ineed something simple on the
voice so I need-- maybe like aNelly Furtado, like, Say It
Right. You know what I mean?
Like something really--

Yep.

--simple, basic.

Yeah.

I'm not a great singer, but like, I'm okay. I'm
okay. That's to warm me up. OnceI'm really going and I've had a
couple drinks, I loveSoundgarden. Uh... What is it?
Black Hole Sun, but I-- 'Causefeel like that's a good stripper
song. [Laughs] And in analternate universe I would strip
to that song. Because there'ssnakes, it's like very sexy. I

(42:22):
love it.

Yeah!

And then closing down the night-- Sorry, you
didn't ask-- [laughs] But you'regonna get this answer anyway!
[Laughs]

This is exactly what I wanted!

[Laughs]

This is exactly what I wanted!

This is where I have a lot of knowledge. Um...

[Laughs]

Ending the night I love to do combo, um, Aquarius
into Let the Sun Shine In, youknow, Fifth Harmony?

Ooo!

With like everyone with tambourines, and
you pass the mic so everyone--because you know, the keys keep
changing, and it's like insane.
So I don't have-- I have oneswhere like, my heart says "Yes,"
my vocal range says "No," butlike--

[Laughs]

--at that point in the night, I'm just like, I
just want to love everyone andlike--

Yeah.

--sing and dance, so... Those are like my
three kind of touchstone songs.

Okay. I love that the answer was thorough--

What about you?
[Laughs]

I don't, I don't go to karaoke bars. I do
not go to karaoke bars.

Ooh... Not a private one?

Nobody has asked me to a karaoke bar.

Ooh...

My friends don't sing. Which is ironic,
because I'm a--

Theatre person.

Yeah.

Scott MacDonald (43:25):
I've never been to a karaoke bar either, if it
makes you--

[Laughs]

Scott MacDonald (43:28):
--feel any better.

I mean, I have been to a karaoke bar, but it
hasn't...

You haven't performed? Okay.

It hasn't happened in a while.

Okay.

Yeah. So Adrienne, do you have any new
plays in the pot?

[Laughs] I do.
But like in terms of like,disability representation, I
want to keep, I want to keepexplor-- actually, like when I
was-- when I was listening toyour podcast, and you had the
conversation about like marriageand like, in terms of like,
benefits and stuff from, fromthe government and like, how
people will intentionally notget married, because it like
will mess up their benefits. Iwas like, "That's a really

(44:00):
interesting... that's a reallyinteresting dynamic."

Yep.

You know? That I've yet to see on stage, you
know, and, and um... I, I'm atthe point where I'm just like,
trying to listen as much aspossible, like, Twitter,
anything... Because what'sbeautiful about social media is
people will get on and tell you,they're like, "I wish I could
see more of this." "Why don't wesee this?" "I wish..." "Why did
they do this with thischaracter?" And I'm quietly

(44:25):
being a creep, screen-grabbingand taking notes. [Laughs]

Yeah.

So that, you know, I have them, you know.
When someone's like, "Oh, well,what would you like to talk
about?" I can be like, "Oh,well, there's this character..."
You know, what I mean? It has tobe stuff I also think it's
interesting, but like, there's,there's a wealth of information
about people just telling youall day, nonstop, about the
representation that they'd liketo see. So.

Yeah.

That's where I'm at. I'm working on, um... I have
this playing called This Bitch.
[Laughs] It's actually myfavorite. It's one of my
favorite titles, because nowanytime you Google my name,
it'll be like "Adrienne Dawes,This Bitch." [Laughs] And I'm so
proud of it. But uh, that's anadaptation, speaking of like
Shakespeare, Shakespeare times,that's an adaptation of a Lope

(45:08):
de Vega play. So that's like areally fun, just big farce,
people on the beach, falling inlove, pretending to not be in
love--

I love it.

--social influencers. So, yeah! I'm
working on that. And that'sreally fun. Because it's so,
it's popcorn. It's not going tosave the world. It's not deep,
it's just jokes on jokes onjokes. And that's been really
fun in the apocalypse to like,get to be there. You know?
[Laughs]

I am a big supporter of popcorn plays.

[Laughs]

Plays that are not gonna save the world. We're
not doing anything deep--

No.

--or like introspective. We're just having
a good time. And I will talkabout this until the cows come
home...

It just taste good!

Yeah!

Yes!

I don't know if you have this dynamic in grad
school right now. But like, Iwent to grad school, and I felt
like, you know, comedy waslooked down upon a little bit,
and I was like, "Can...? Isit...? It's theatre!"

Yeah!

Like the Greeks had tragedy and comedy!

--and comedy.
Yeah.

Like, The Frogs.

Yeah.

Genius!

Hilarious.

Aristophanes knew what he was doing!

Aristophanes is hilarious.

Right?

[Laughs] Don't have anyone tell you any
different.

Right? Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah.

But like, popcorn plays...

Yeah, I don't get-- I mean, like, we know we
need-- I was just gonna saylike, we need them, like you
smell someone microwavingpopcorn--

Yeah.

--and you wanna eat it. You know? You know, it's
like filler-food, it's not gonnafill you up and like, give you
anything but like, it smells andtastes great in the moment.
[Laughs] And that's what itfeels like we kind of need right
now. It's like, we're alreadyliving in like hell. So like,
just to have two hours of escapeis like--

Yeah.

--gorgeous, you know? So yeah, I... My
professor-- It's funny becausemy advisor, like, this is now
my, I'm going into my third yearand just in my last year he was
like, "So you write a lot ofcomedy." [Laughs] Like, it's
kind of established, like, "Youcan do jokes, but like, can you
do..." you what I mean? I'm sortof like, "Yeah, but I don't
wanna not make..." like, why,why not do a drama and also make

(47:10):
jokes along the way? Like...

Exactly! Exactly.

Why is it either or? So...

"Porque no los dos?" is what I say.

I... yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's harder to be a comedian in a lot
of ways, especially in theatre,like it is kind of looked down
on, and you do kind of have topackage it in another, like,
wrapper sometimes.

Yeah.

But yeah. I mean, like, it's just such a
great disarming element to getthe audience to like really
listen to you and take youseriously. Like, if you can make
someone laugh, they're yours fortwo hours. [Laughs]

I'm constantly, constantly thinking about my
thesis because I'm egotistical.
Um...

[Laughs]

But like my thesis was a comedy. And it had
a disabled detective.

Oh, cool.

And like, I had a lot of questions about that,
that play, but a lot of, a lotof the questions were like, "Why
was the detective disabled? Likeyou didn't mention it? Was it
like a, like a deep, tragicbackstory?" And I'm like--

No.

--"No! The detective is disabled, because
they just were."

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. And I was like, "Are you really that
shocked that disabled people canhave fun?"

Yeah.

Um...

[Laughs]

But like, I'm just like, disabled people don't
have to explain why we are in aspace. That's also something
that, that I like is whendisabled people are in comedies,
and they're not the butt of thejoke.

Yeah.

And they don't have like, this whole tragic
backstory thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

We don't need to know, you just need to be
funny. Basically.

Yeah, yeah.

So I applaud you for doing comedy in grad
school, because it took me a lotof time to get to that
conclusion. Is your thesis acomedy?

I don't know! [Laughs] So I mean, [laughs] the
answer-- you can tell by thesound of my voice, like, I'm
hoping This Bitch will be mythesis. [Laughs]

Oh!

Just to submit a paper that's like "This Bitch, a
thesis by Adrienne Dawes." Um,I'm really hoping, I have to
have that conversation withthem, but probably it will-- I
mean, my other option, I havethis play called Dupe that's
like, you can imagine like avery twin-ception farce that's
about like race and identity andbeing an artist. That's the

(49:30):
other option I have.

Yeah.

But at my school it's always a question of like,
casting and do we have diverseactors?

Mm-hm.

So it's a challenge... like that's the
kind of hard conversation I haveto have with, with my school is
like--

Yeah.

--"What can we swing? Can we swing bilingual
actors and a bilingual director,or can I swing, you know, two
black female leads?" [Laughs]You know, that's hard to come
by--

Yeah.

--at my school...

Yeah.

Um, not impossible. Just takes money,
and outreach, and time. But...

Yeah, that's something I constantly think
about. Like it's not impossible.
It just takes time and money.

Yeah.

Which is something that people don't want
to give out that easily.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So, yeah.

Especially in academia, but...

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, we'll see. We have to start having
those conversations soon.
Because that would be-- so thisis crazy, I'm in my third year,
which is normal for thisprogram, it's a three year
program, but like they're givingus a fourth so hopefully our
productions can be in-person. SoI'm on-deck for, you know, two
more years, so we'll starttalking this year about next
year.

Yeah.

So, soon. TBD.

Well, good luck! I mean, like, disability
in academia, and like diversityin academia is a whole 'nother
topic that we can do--

Yeah.

--with a whole 'nother episode. But like, I've
done it, you have my number, ifyou need any more advice.

[Laughs] Yeah, yes! No you've been really
helpful. Thank you.

Speaking about the future, Adrienne, do you
have any upcoming projects thatyou want the people to know
about?

Yes! Well, this is a "Yes, hopefully", like,
"cross your fingers, that thiswill happen." But allegedly,
[laughs] I'll have a, the worldpremiere my play Casta, in uh, I
think it would be fall of '22.
So next fall would be aproduction with Salvage
Vanguard. And this play, I'vebeen working on this play since

(51:22):
2016. It is a beast, it's huge.
There's like an eight-personensemble who--

Oh wow!

--perform, and puppeteer, and some of them play
instruments. There's all thisdance and movement involved.
It's supposed to be opening atthe Blanton Museum of Art in
Austin, Texas, alongside anexhibit of casta paintings. So
there's a lot of moving pieceswith this, the play is about--
so like, it is an adaptation orlike, I guess like a historical

(51:51):
adaptation is the best way todescribe it, which, not my
wheelhouse, again, I really comemore from comedy. But I found
out about these series ofpaintings called "castas." They
look at race or caste in 18thcentury Mexico, so that's like,
you'll see these 16 panels andeach have like a mother, a
father, and a child with like adescription of what their

(52:13):
mixture is. So it'll be like, "AEuropean plus an indigenous
person makes mestiza" is likethe first one. And it'll go
through like 16 variations. AndI found these paintings and was
like, even though I didn't knowwhat they were, you know I'm
mixed race so I was like, "Iknow exactly..." like, "How do I
know exactly what this iswithout ever reading about it?"
So that was like 2016. And Iwent through this, like, you

(52:36):
know how it is with dramaturgy,you just get like obsessed, and
then started--

Mm-hm.

--reading all these books, and I've gone to
the LACMA in Los Angeles has ahas a lot of the paintings. I've
been to, I've gotten grants togo to Mexico and go to Spain and
see the paintings. So the playis like basically putting on
stage 16 of these paintings. Sothere's like a real world
reference. And so it's kind oflike in this space of like

(53:00):
perform-- it's like a little bitperformance-art-y, but like,
there is some humor. It's alsofamily-friendly, which is not my
usual. Um, it's a lot of things.
There's original compositionGraham Reynolds is doing. But we
talk a lot about colorism andrace but like from within a
Mexican context. So I'm reallyexcited about it. We've got a
lot of great funders. [Laughs]Which I don't know if that's

(53:22):
like a plug [laughs] orhumblebrag, but like--

That sounds amazing.

--it made me feel like, cool as shit to like,
have like, the NEA and like MAPFund, you know, want to support
this project...

Wow, the NEA, you're getting federal with this
stuff!

I know! [Laughs] I know, you know my bio got
updated [snaps] like that.

Yep. Yep.

No, I mean, it's outside validation or like
recognition that like--

Right.

--"Oh, this is an interesting story, and we
want to support it." Sohopefully, we'll get to perform
that live in the Blanton Museumof Art. And if not, it might be
performed in a different space,you know, just depends on... oh
so many things. [Sigh] But we'rehopeful that we can perform. And
the nice thing is like, if weare doing it and performers have

(54:08):
to be masked because we'reindoors, it kind of works within
the, like the design of theworld is really specific
because--

Yeah.

--they're paintings so like I could see a
designer creating... and theeight characters have to play 16
different families.

Mm-hm.

So like skin tone changes in the paintings
anyway, so like, I feel like avery motivated designer, could
figure out some really cool waysto keep the performers safe,
keep the audience safe, and wecould still do the play, but...
That in long is what's up next.
[Laughs]

I have to be honest, like, I am not looking
forward to all of the plays thatare gonna come out in the next
10 years about the pandemic withlike, the actors having like
masks as costumes, but um, thatmade me excited.

[Laughs]

I know it's not like a pandemic play, but like--

No, not at all.
[Laughs]

--I think that's like a perfect example of
like, how to combine the truthof our reality right now with
art. I think that's a perfectsolution. You just have to find
the right designer. And I haveno doubt that you will.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah, we have, we're working, I mean, because
the project, the project wasgonna premiere this November,
and then the museum is the onewho had pushed it back. This is
pre-pandemia. So they were--just, museums run on a much
slower schedule than theatredoes.

Yeah.

And they have to borrow stuff from all over the
world and they're bringing inreal castas. We won't be in the
same room as them, but we'll beright next door, which is still
exciting. And so when that gotpushed back, it's like, you
know, some of the actors movedfrom Austin, it's mostly an
Austin-based cast, this isSalvage Vanguard Theater in
Austin, who I've worked with alot. They premiered two of my

(55:52):
plays thus far, so this would benumber three. And um, yeah! So
we'll kind of have to like, youknow, shuffle things around, but
I'm hoping, we have a really,the designer we have, the
costume designer and setdesigner we've been working with
are both really phenomenal anddo kind of more historical, like
our costume designer does likehistorical, um, what's it
called? reproductions of stufffor museums, so like, she's like

(56:14):
kind of perfect for a projectthat's like, so history based,
so...

That's amazing.

Hopefully, we'll still keep her. [Laughs]
Hopefully she won't move in thenext year!

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, but we've definitely got some some
funds to play with, sohopefully, yeah.

Related but also unrelated. Do you think
Austin is still weird?

[Groans, laughs] Uh, that noise means... [sigh]
Honestly, I should say, I don'tknow. Because I haven't lived
there... Last time I live therewas 2016. Like, lived there.
I've visited a couple times.

Yeah.

I feel, like for me, I don't see a future with me
in Austin. The only exception islike to take care of family or
like if I had to go back forfamily I would. But I think um--

Yeah.

--if you're gonna spend that kind of money
you might as well go to LA orNew York or Chicago or anywhere
else like. There are reallystill some great people there, I
think if you're an artist, itused to be, and I know everyone
says this but like it used tobe, you, as a young person could
move there, like have your dayjob, start up a theatre company,
or film your film, or be in aband, or whatever your artistic

(57:23):
thing was, and still like havelike a nice life, you know what
I mean? You could afford housingyou could... you could do your
thing! And...

Yeah.

And it feels like now, at least the friends
of mine that are still there, Idon't have a whole lot of
friends that are like early-20s,but like the ones that are
there, it just seems like it's amuch more, much more of a
struggle. It's much moreexpensive, the resources are
spread even more thin, so...

Mm-hm.

I wish I could say like, "Yeah, still consider
Austin on your list," but like,I feel like a lot of people are
going to like Nashville and likeactually Northwest Arkansas,
weirdly enough. If you canhandle Walmart country, there is
a lot of funding for the artshere.

Wow!

Like then you're in Arkansas. So you do need to
think about that. Yeah, you justneed to think about the
politics. I mean, like thepolitics here are... so crazy.
Every day I'm like...

Yeah.

We're not like as bad as Florida but like--

No!

--but like Texas isn't great either. [Laughs] I
mean, I read all these thingsabout Texas and I'm like, "This
is why, this is why I don't wantmy final, like, landing spot to
be Texas." I've lived there solong and I love it--

Right, exactly.

--I'll always be a Texan, you probably feel the
same way, like--

Yeah.

--you'll always be a Texan,--

Yeah.

--but do you always want to live in Texas?

No, no, I mean, um...

Yeah.

It's a joke that the two disabled
politicians I know the mostabout are FDR and Greg Abbott.
And I'm like, "Talk aboutrange!" Talk about range.

Wow, I didn't know! Wow, Abbott, really?

Yeah, Greg Abbott is in a wheelchair.

Wow!

Yeah, you probably didn't know that
because, um, well, when theytake photos of him, he's always
like, behind something, like adesk, or they crop the photo--

Wow.

--from the waist up. So it's like
sneaky-wheelchair a little bit.
Like...

[Laughs]

"He's like a regular old Joe!" but like, you
don't, you don't see thewheelchair, you know what I
mean?

Yeah.

Um, it's all about like, optics and stuff.
So.

Yeah.

But, um, anyway!

[Laughs]

No, I love Texas so much because of the
food and the people and like,southern hospitality is a thing.

Yeah. Yes.

And like, honestly, it's not just because
of the politics. It's alsobecause I realized that my
community of artists who I wantto make art with aren't in
Texas.

Hmm, yeah, that's a big one too.

Yeah. Yeah.
'Cause, you know, my entirefamily is in Houston. And I do
like being near them...

Yeah.

I love them very much, they drive me wild--

[Laughs]

--but the people I want to make art with
aren't here. So.

Hmm. Yeah, no that's fair.

Nicole Zimmerer (01:00:01):
Yeah.

Adrienne Dawes (01:00:02):
They'll always be there for you too. And
Houston is a great-- I've spentlike a little bit of time there
for art stuff and, and to seeBeyonce of course.

Yes.

Um, but uh--

In her natural habitat.

[Laughs] Yeah, I had to see her, exactly, that's
why we made the drive, we werelike "We have to see her in her
natural habitat." But yeah, Imean, and I feel the same way
about Austin too. It's like,it's always gonna be there, you
know I mean? And so like, it'sjust like, now's the time to
like, you know, go and exploreother things and like, as a
backup plan it's not even a badone. It's just like, there are
more exciting things, I think.

Yeah.

More challenging things for me out there. And
Austin's like the--

Yeah.

--backup plan, you know, if stuff falls
through.

I have one last question.

Yes.

How does your family feel about your art?

Hmmm!

Do they know about, you know, Hairy and
Sherri?

[Laughs] They do... My mother does-- You know
what's so cool? I love thisquestion 'cause like, one thing
I've always wanted to do islike, write something that my
sisters could see, because mysisters don't, for a lot of
reasons my sisters... my sisterRobin in particular, my sister
Allie has come and seen shows.
But my sister Robin, who I'mlike probably the closest to,

(01:01:16):
who has like specific languageand we connect over music and
stuff. Like, I've been thinkingabout, like, what would be a
show that she would like? Andshe loves music and she's
learned to speak through music.
And I guess intellectually,like, she's on a level of more
like a small child, like shewatches like Barney and things

(01:01:39):
have to be very colorful, and...
kind of sing-song storytelling.
And so I have thought aboutlike, just that question of
like, "Could I write somethingthat she could enjoy?" Because
that would be so cool. Thatwould be so cool. If I could
write something.

Yeah.

And I think that there is like, not that this
would be baby theatre, but thereis like a youth theatre thing of
like these like very, theseexperiences that are more about
color and sound than like, yourtraditional, like, "Two
characters doing something." SoI think that'd be really
interesting. I'm just thinkingabout my sister Robin as an
audience member. My mom has lotsof opinions [laughs] about Hairy

(01:02:16):
and Sherri. It's hilarious.
'Cause you have to keep in mindthat like, her background is an
early-childhood-- working withchildren with disabilities for
years. Then she was arehabilitative foster home mom,
and also training other familieswho are taking in kids that have
special needs. So like, herbackground has pretty much been
like working with disabledchildren forever.

Mm-hm.

And so when I gave her-- actually what I did
is I gave her that first sceneof Hairy and Sherri where the
parents are like shopping for akid, which is like very over the
top, but like, also, you can dothat, like any of us can right
now go and Google and seechildren that are available for
adoption. You can see theirfaces, you can see their names,
like it's kind of this weirdthing. And so I sent her the

(01:02:57):
scene and I just, I didn't tellher anything about the play. I
just was like, "Hey, this--"like, "I wrote this scene about`
these two parents who arethinking about adopting. Just
like, tell me your opinion, whatyou think of this," and she
wrote me the longest textmessage [laughs] I have ever
seen in my life! She was soangry. She-- it was like they
were real. And that was like, Iwas kind of like, "Oh, I've done
something right." [Laughs]

Yeah! Yeah.

Because she was so mad. She was like, "This is a
red flag. And this! And no onewould ever do this! And
blah-blah blah-blah blah. Andthe way they're talking about
children blah-blah blah-blahblah." She just like, lost her
goddamn mind. And um, and thenit was funny too, because she
was like, "Well why don't youwrite a happy story about
adoption?" Like you know, mystory is not like, the super--
well, I shouldn't say it's notsuper traumatic but like, I have

(01:03:39):
a different story of adoptionthat definitely has trauma in
it, but is not like your"Lifetime Television for women"
kind of thing.

Yeah.

Like, actually I have more trauma from my birth
mother than I do like the systemor these other stories that
we've had. And, all right, we'lldo a podcast about that another
day. But like--

Yeah.

Her, her-- she had such a vishual like--
"vishual" that's not the word[laughs] Visceral! [Laughs] She
had such a visceral reaction tojust that scene, it told me I
was doing something right.

Yeah.

Even though she would prefer, but like, her--
you know, I love my mom-- Mom, Ilove you. But like she loves
procedural like television. Sheloves like a really clear like,
cute little ending. So like, ourtelevision interests, we can't
watch TV together because I wantto watch really dark...

Yeah.

You know, I want a story, I want all the things.
And she's just like "I need, Ineed it to always be the same
every time." [Laughs] LikeStarbucks.

[Laughs] Yeah.

She just needed to be like-- and it's comfort. I
mean, imagine like--

Yeah.

--her life is all day, every day on her feet,
she's never slept through thenight for 30 years--

Oh, jeez!

--because of all the needs. She's the primary
caretaker of multiple people,multiple now adults with special
needs. She has some help duringthe day, but that's not always
reliable. We don't have money.
We can't like pay people, youknow, what would actually be
worth to like, you know, do agood job. So like, I think at
the end of the day, she wants aglass of wine and to like watch
a murder mystery that wraps upin 30 minutes, you know, so--

Yeah.

Artistically [laughs] I'm not writing that!
But my family is super, supersupportive-- I mean like, at
least I grew up with parentswho-- and my dad is this way
too, I haven't talked about mydad, but like they both just
sort of like knew I was awriter, knew I was an artist. I
was very shy, and so it was away for me to express myself and
so they, they've always been, Ilucked out, they've always been

(01:05:30):
really, really supportive. So.

That's great.

You know.

That's great.

Yeah, lucked out. [Laughs]

I also... I think about my mom when I'm
writing.

[Laughs]

My thesis... it was like, I don't care if
anybody likes it, I know mymom's gonna enjoy it.

[Laughs]

So that's good enough for me.

Yeah! I should think about writing something
for her, that she would actuallylike. Because I think my stuff
is just too dark. It's too darkfor her. She wants--

A murder mystery that wraps up in 30
minutes!

Mm-hm! Like a strong sassy woman--

Yeah.

--who's like, in her like... you know, a
middle-aged woman... it'sbasically her! [Laughs]

Yeah!

She wants to see her solve a mystery, you know?
And I get that.

Yeah.

[Laughs] Psychologically, I understand
it.

Yeah!

Yeah. [Laughs]

She should watch a lot of like, British
crime dramas. I think she wouldlike that a lot.

I wish!

Broadchurch.

Yeah, I think, I don't, I have to talk to her
about what she is watching rightnow. I feel like she would like
that a lot. I don't even knowhonestly, I don't-- to God, I
don't even know that-- like, theshow-- I wanted her to watch
Catastrophe because I thought"Oh, this is like a fun, kind of
like sexy show." But like, Idon't think she interested...
she was like humoring me towatch it.

Yeah.

Because I was like, "The writing's really
good. And like, they're funny,and like they're real and I like
this relationship..." And she'sjust like, "Yeah, I can see why
you..." [laughs]

[Laughs]

"I can see why that's your kind of thing." You
know? How your parents humoryou?

Hearing, hearing you talk about her
preferences, does she watch,like, NCIS, NCIS-LA?

Yes. Oh, yeah!

She-- yeah.

Hawaii, all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yep. Yeah. My mom, my mom was like that, too
and then, and then she foundlike the same thing but with
books. So she likes to read morethan she like to watch TV.

Ooh, nice.

She's--

Oh, that's good!

It's the same thing, it's the same content,
different mediums. Differentmediums.

Just in a book.
Yeah.

Yeah. And I swear to God--

That's so cool...

--those authors make her laugh more than I do,
and it's a point of like, it'san issue for me! I'm like--

It's insulting! [Laughs]

"Ma'am!"

[Laughs] Yeah! Yeah. No, it's been a weird
shift getting older because likeI, what I'd love more-- what I'd
love to do is like just likesnuggle up on the couch with a
cup of tea with my mom and, andwatch some really dark, gruesome
shows. [Laughs]

[Laughs]

And what my mom wants to do is like... not that.
And the show she wants to watch,I literally, I've tried, Nicole.
A couple times I've been like,"I'm just gonna soldier through,
drink a glass of wine with herand like, try to make it through
an episode." And I'm on myphone. I can't--

Yeah.

--pay attention.

Yeah. I mean, you have to understand that
like, it's a machine.

Yes.

Like the beats are already set out and like--

Yeah, yeah.

That's the reason like, SVU has lasted
25-some odd--

Yes.

Nicole Zimmer (01:08:14):
--20,000-some-odd years?

[Laughs]

It's never gonna... It is a comfort show.

Yes. Yes.

Is it about cops? Yes. Is that problematic?
Yes.

Yes.

But it's comfort.

Yes.

Yeah.

You know what you're gonna get every time. If
you miss an episode, doesn'tmatter. You know, so--

Yep. Yeah.
Yeah.

Yeah, I get, I get that. But I'm in for like a
relationship. [Laughs]

Yeah.

I want relationship with these
characters for a long time.
Yeah.

Speaking of shows, and TV and things, I
think this is a perfect segue toa surprise segment of ACCESSible
HOLLYWOOD. ACCESS-ibleHollywood!

[Laughs]

Um, I hope I emphasized the right sy-LA-ble
for that.

That was great.

Thank you!

[Laughs]

Thank you.

That was great.

But uh, it was recently annouced that Judy
Huemann's book, Being Huemann...
um, and for those of you who'vebeen listening, I mention Judy
like every-other episode,because I love that woman. She's
like the godmother of disabilityrights. She was a big part of
the 504 strikes that led to theADA being passed, and she's just

(01:09:19):
an amazing human being. Anyway,her memoir has been optioned to
be a movie and Ali Stroker, aka,the Tony Award winner Ali
Stroker is attached to play herin the movie. Which is really
funny because Ali Stroker hasplayed Judy Heumann before in an
episode of Drunk History. Sothis new movie that's coming out

(01:09:43):
is part of the Drunk Historycinematic universe.

[Laughs]

And I'm very excited.

That's incredible.

Adrienne, have you seen Crip Camp? Please tell
me you have.

Yes! Yes, yes, yes.

Okay. [Gasp]

Of course. Yeah.

Oh--

It's fantastic.

You are like...

[Laughs]

It's so--

It's so incredible.

It's so good! We always talk about Crip Camp
on this podcast.

[Laughs]

We've become obsessed with it...

It's so incredible. Yeah.

I have to mention it every episode. Every
episode, we're mentioning CripCamp. Drink whenever Nicole
mentions Crip Camp...

[Laughs]

Because Crip Camp is a-ma-zing.

Yeah.

So that was my Crip Camp plug for this episode.

[Laughs]

Stay tuned for next time where I bring it up
again, and again.

[Laughs] With someone else. [Laughs]

With somebody else. And I'm so, I'm so happy
that you've seen it. It'samazing. It's incredible.

Yeah.

Every time I mention it, I either get a "Yes"
or get a blank stare.

[Laughs]

Adrienne, before we go, where can the
people find you on theinterwebs?

Yes, I have a website, AdrienneDawes.com. I'm
also on social media way toomuch as HeckleHer. So like
Instagram, Twitter, I even havea TikTok, but I really don't
update it... But yeah, HeckleHer used to be the-- I used to
like have an independent likeproduction company, just
basically me putting on my ownwork. And so I called it Heckle

(01:11:05):
Her and then that's just beenmy--

Okay.

--my name on social media.

That was my question. I was like...

[Laughs] Yeah, people always like, "Why would
you say heckle her? Heckling isbad!" But, uh, I don't know, I
like the alliteration, and Ilike the like, kind of
confrontation it asks of theaudience of like--

Yeah.

"Oh, there's a girl on stage, trying to be
funny." And it's like, "No, weare funny!" [Laughs] "Come for
me!"

Yeah.

You know what I mean? So yeah, it just kind of
stuck.

So, HeckleHer.

Yes.

On Instagram...

Twitter.

TikTok and Twitter.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then AdrienneDawes.com.

Yeah.

Great. Well, Adrienne, this was great. It's
so lovely to see you--

Yes.

--and to talk to you.

You too.

I always feel like our conversations are so
well, fulfilling for me!

Yeah.

But also like--

Same!

--opens, you know, the portal to my brain a
little bit.

[Laughs] Thank you.

Yeah.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of Break A Leg! And
thank you to our guest,Adrienne, for joining us today.
Follow us on Instagram andTwitter @breakalegpod, that's
break a leg, P-O-D. Let us knowwhat you thought of the episode
or tell us who you think weshould have on next. For a full

(01:12:16):
transcript of each episode, usethe link in the episode
description. The easiest way tosupport this show is by leaving
us a review on Apple Podcasts.
And make sure to click thatSubscribe button! Break A Leg!
is produced by Scott MacDonald,and our cover art was created by
Sasha and Alexander Schwartz.
I'm Nicole Zimmerer and I willsee you next time.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

Therapy Gecko

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Playwriting with Adrienne Dawes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

Therapy Gecko

All Episodes

Playwriting with Adrienne Dawes

Dateline NBC