June 11, 2021 • 44 mins
Nicole is joined by her friend Sydney Mayer to discuss disability representation in media (what really is "representation"?). They dive deep on disability and rhetoric, the words "Handicap" and "Accessibility," Inspo-Porn, character tropes, and more!
Sydney Mayer is a writer and dramaturg currently based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. She holds a BFA in Drama with a minor in Literature and Culture from Carnegie Mellon University, where she is currently pursuing her Master’s degree in Professional Writing.
Find Sydney online!
Instagram: @sydney.isabelle
Sydney’s Howlround Article:
https://howlround.com/responsible-theatremaking
Episode Transcript: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1751649/8677616
Produced by Scott MacDonald
Artwork by Sasha & Alexander Schwartz
https://breakalegpod.buzzsprout.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicole Zimmerer (00:17):
Welcome to Break A Leg! A podcast that
explores the relationshipbetween disability and the arts.
I'm your host, Nicole Zimmerer,and on today's episode our guest
is Sydney Mayer. Sydney Mayer isa writer and dramaturg currently
based in Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania. She holds a BFA in
Drama and a minor in Literatureand Culture from Carnegie Mellon
(00:37):
University, where she iscurrently pursuing her Master's
degree in professional writing.
Hi, Sydney, welcome to the show.
Sydney Mayer (00:45):
Hi, Nicole, thank you for having me. I've been
super excited about doing this.
Nicole Zimmerer (00:49):
I'm super excited that you are doing this.
It's gonna be a good episode.
Sydney Mayer (00:53):
Yes!
Nicole Zimmerer (00:54):
Okay, so our first segment is called Spilling
the Disabili-Tea where we lookat historical or current events,
or share some interesting factsrelating to the disabled
community. And today's fun factsis really, really nerdy, we're
going to be looking at etymologyof terms used to describe the
disabled community.
Sydney Mayer (01:14):
Very exciting. I love etymology, I love getting
nerdy.
Nicole Zimmerer (01:18):
So the word handicap was first used to
describe the mentally andphysically disabled in the early
20th century, I believe, whenthe new fields of sociology and
social work started to look atpeople in terms of their place
in society as a whole. The termwas borrowed from horse racing,
(01:42):
when a faster, stronger, moresuperior horse was given a
handicap, quote-unquote"handicap," such as a weight or
a longer distance, or a laterstart to equalize the chances of
the competitors. Which is veryinteresting. I did not know that
(02:03):
at all.
Sydney Mayer (02:03):
That is really interesting.
Nicole Zimmerer (02:05):
Oh, it says, "if life was a horse race, a
person with a physicaldisability couldn't compete as
well, because of the burden theyhad been handed, not because
they were defective by nature,"which is very interesting, when
you think about the social modelof disability, and not the
medical model of disability. Oh,that's interesting. Um, so
(02:28):
handicap was the big word upuntil the birth of the
disability rights movement. Theleaders of the disability rights
movement rejected the term"handicap" in favor of disabled,
and it replaced other terms thathave have emaculated with all
the other terrible connotations.
Sydney Mayer (02:50):
It's really interesting how the language we
use to describe ourselvesevolves over time going from
"handicapped" to "disabled."
Nicole Zimmerer (02:57):
Right.
Sydney Mayer (02:57):
And now conversations about using other
words like "differently-abled."I remember, Nicole, you and I
met in the disabilityrepresentation class, and we
spent about a week speaking withthe teacher trying to figure out
a common language for the wholegroup to use, which I think we
never really got a clean answerto.
Nicole Zimmerer (03:14):
Well, it's really interesting because a lot
of disability activists, saythings like "just use the term
disabled, it's not, it's not abad word, just say it." It's
like, I personally believe justuse the term disabled, like call
a spade a spade, you know what Imean? When people say, like,
(03:37):
"handicapped" or"differently-abled," or my very,
very favorite one "specialneeds," I just feel like I'm
being talked down to as aperson. And that doesn't make me
feel good. So it's reallyinteresting when you, when you
think about, like, the disabledcommunity reclaiming that word.
Sydney Mayer (03:57):
Absolutely. And I think there's so much about our
disabilities to reclaim in manyways, some of them can be super
powers and things that reallybolster your identity. So I
don't know avoiding thosenegative connotations and giving
the ownership back to a groupwho's taking control over that
word again is important.
Nicole Zimmerer (04:13):
Yeah. And I also feel like we're also
reclaiming the word "cripple." Imean, I know some people in our
communities are like, "I don'tlike that word," and I'm like
"cool," um, it's all aboutpersonal preference, and I think
every disabled person isdifferent, disability is not a
monolith, we e have differentidentities.
Sydney Mayer (04:35):
Sure. I mean, it's like the word "queer" in the
queer community, that there'sflexibility in who is
comfortable claiming thatlanguage.
Nicole Zimmerer (04:42):
Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, dear listeners, if
you run into a disabled personin the street, which you will
definitely, definitely do, weare out there and we do exist...
obviously. We're here right nowtalking to you. Just ask what
(05:02):
their preference is, if you getto that point of the
conversation, it's like askingsomebody's name or somebody's
pronouns.
Sydney Mayer (05:11):
That's true.
Nicole Zimmerer (05:12):
I know there's a lot of language surrounding
disability and I know that it isconfusing to non-disabled
people, but I just want to tellyou we're pretty open, once we
get to know you. Like, don'tcome up to a disabled person and
be like, "So what happened toyou?" cause, uh, that's not
(05:33):
cool. But you know, if you'rehaving, if you're having a
conversation with somebody, andthe topic of disability comes
up, just follow their lead, isthe best advice that I can give
you and guidance that I can giveyou. And if you have any
questions, I'm sure if you askpolitely, I'm sure the person
(05:59):
you're talking with would behappy to tell you the words
they're comfortable using andhow to have a respectful
conversation between two humanbeings, is what we all want in
this world. So, that's all Ihave to say on that. Sydney, do
you have anything else?
Sydney Mayer (06:19):
No, I just think it's important to talk about it,
demystify it, and allow those inmarginalized groups to select
the language that we use to talkabout it.
Nicole Zimmerer (06:28):
For sure.
Excellent. Excellent. Yep. So,Sydney, tell the people who you
are, tell us what your deal is,tell us what your damage is.
Let's really dig in.
Sydney Mayer (06:38):
Ooh what's my damage? That's a good question.
All right. Well, I typicallyidentify as like my primary
disability being ADHD, because Ibelieve most of the
comorbidities and other things Ideal with mostly stem from that.
But I also have some hearingloss and auditory processing
disorders.
Nicole Zimmerer (06:54):
That's fun.
Sydney Mayer (06:56):
It's not that fun, but sometimes it's cool, but it
always means I have the captionson my TV.
Nicole Zimmerer (07:00):
I love captions. I don't know why
people bitch about them all thetime. I think they're great.
Sydney Mayer (07:05):
They are great, but sometimes people can be a
lot more responsible about howthey're actually placing their
captions. I was watching NewGirl last night and whenever
they've got like theintroductory of like, "Created
by...", "Executive Producerwho...", the captions all go
above their faces so you can nolonger see the faces of the
actors who are speaking.
Nicole Zimmerer (07:21):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (07:21):
So good intention, poor execution, but...
Nicole Zimmerer (07:24):
Which is you know, par for the course...
Sydney Mayer (07:26):
Oftentimes the case.
Nicole Zimmerer (07:27):
Yeah, I like, that is the one point that is
the one stick in my craw aboutcaptions is sometimes I'm like,
"I just want to see the emotionsof the actors, because that's
why we're here!" But, you knowwho has really good captions?
Disney+. Disney+... A+ captions.
Sydney Mayer (07:46):
Excellent. You know who has the worst captions?
YouTube.
Nicole Zimmerer (07:49):
You--Oh, god, god awful captions on YouTube.
Sydney Mayer (07:53):
But yeah, that's that's generally my damage, and
given that personal experience,I've really been interested in
doing more disability studieswork at the undergraduate and
graduate level, so I've alsodived in more as a scholar as
well.
Nicole Zimmerer (08:05):
Cool, cool. Um, you said, you mentioned
something about rhetoric. Canyou talk about rhetoric and what
it is, and then we'll get intolike the rhetoric of disability
that we see in our societytoday.
Sydney Mayer (08:18):
Absolutely. I think we're just talking about
my interest in discussingrhetoric and representation in
Arts and Media of disabilityand--
Nicole Zimmerer (08:26):
The words we use.
Sydney Mayer (08:28):
Give me one second to check my notes because
Stephanie had the perfectdefinition of rhetoric that I
wanted to use.
Nicole Zimmerer (08:33):
For those of you who don't know, Stephanie R.
Larson was our professor at CMUwhere Sydney and I took her
class, I think it was calledDisability in Our Society? Was
it?
Sydney Mayer (08:46):
It was uh...
Disability Representation inMedia.
Nicole Zimmerer (08:50):
Was it? I thought it had the word society
in it.
Sydney Mayer (08:53):
Maybe we're both wrong, I could check my
transcript, but I don't thinkthe audience has time for that.
Nicole Zimmerer (08:58):
No, no, it was something about disability, and
believe me when I say it was oneof the best classes I've ever
taken.
Sydney Mayer (09:06):
Always take a Stephanie class. And I'll
definitely, I'll creditStephanie for a lot of the basis
of my knowledge in disabilityrhetoric, outside of my own
personal experience, she'sreally been a great foundational
resource for that. But herdefinition is really that
rhetoric is the art ofpersuasion or messaging, either
viscerally, bodily, or inwriting, or verbally. So really
(09:28):
just talking about how we'resending messages to one another,
directly and indirectly.
Nicole Zimmerer (09:34):
Right, right.
So how do you think that affectsdisability in terms of the arts
and society and how we viewrepresentation of disability in
the media?
Sydney Mayer (09:46):
So one thing about representation in the media is
that it oftentimes informsaudiences perceptions of what
reality is, and sometimes that'stheir only exposure to people
who are different thanthemselves. So we need to be
really responsible with whatwe're doing with our
representation, and as much aswe can go into that with many
other things, likerepresentations of rape,
(10:07):
representations of race, I thinkone other thing that we can
really talk about and bethoughtful with is
representations of disability.
And so when we're thinkingabout, you know, just off the
top of my head, like, CriminalMinds has a lot of like
episode-to-episode arcs withtheir criminals, and pretty
frequently they diagnose theircriminals with a certain kind of
disability as some kind ofjustification or villain arc.
(10:29):
And so I think when we'rereproducing those stories pretty
often, then we are reaffirmingstereotypes and poor
connotations around disability.
And so I think it's reallyimportant to be thoughtful about
how you're representing thesethings on a mass scale.
Nicole Zimmerer (10:49):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (10:50):
I think most of all, it comes down to this idea
that you want to like "other"that kind of violent person in a
way that disassociates you fromhaving to take responsibility
for any similarities orculpability you may have in the
past, present, or future, but...
Nicole Zimmerer (11:03):
Yeah, there's a play anthology of disability
plays. It's called "[Beyond]Victims and Villians," or
"Villains and..." anyway, it'svery good, I have on my
bookshelf, I'm not going to lookfor it.
Sydney Mayer (11:15):
Ooh, yet another play to borrow from Nicole.
Nicole Zimmerer (11:18):
Yeah, actually, it's like six plays. It's a
huge, thick anthology. It's nota recent anthology, so some of
the plays I like, raise my eyesa little bit, I'm like, "Okay,
you say you're stoppingstereotypes, but there's some in
here... but okay! I'm gonna readyou anyway." Um, if we look at
(11:39):
the disabled figures we have inmedia, I immediately think of
Richard III, for the victim, Imean the villain, he's
definitely not a victim. Andthen I think of Lionel Barrymore
in it's a wonderful life. Andthen for the victims I'm like,
Tiny Tim, Laura Wingfield... thelist goes on and on, I mean, you
(12:04):
just, you just have to thinkabout it and it's right there.
So it's just really interestinghow words really do have power
and really do affect society.
And I think, hopefully, peopleare being more cognizant of that
power that they wield. Sydney,do you have any, like, favorite
examples of disabilityrepresentation in rhetoric? And,
(12:30):
or do you have any examples ofdisability and rhetoric that you
would like to talk about?
Sydney Mayer (12:37):
Definitely. And as easy of a trap, as it is to fall
into, there are also peopledoing it really well, positively
with this rhetoric andrepresentation of disabilities.
I think, specifically to DeafWest's revival of Spring
Awakening on Broadway, in whichthey included a lot of deaf
actors and sign language was areally key piece of the
choreography. I thought that wasdone really thoughtfully and
(13:00):
excellently. So that's not tosay it can't be done, because it
absolutely can be. And I believethat it fully enriched the art
and really added to the story. Idefinitely liked watching Wendla
and kind of two perspectiveswith both the deaf and hearing
actor, it really allowed me tosee more sides of her character.
So I think there's there's lotsof benefit in doing productive
(13:20):
disability representation.
Nicole Zimmerer (13:22):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (13:23):
So referring back to Stephanie Larson, again, I
took another course with hercalled The Rhetoric of the Body,
in which we really spoke aboutmessaging viscerally through
bodies. And we talked a lotabout photos of those who were
disabled, or those who areexperiencing violence, as a
method of persuasion and talkingabout how that is ultimately,
(13:44):
just an objectification.
Nicole Zimmerer (13:46):
Yeah. Yeah.
Sydney, can you talk more aboutwhat you mean, when you say
persuasion?
Sydney Mayer (13:53):
Sure, I mean, the visual or verbal messaging to
audiences to get them to agreewith whatever you are putting
forth, whatever is on your side.
And this could be used in apolitical means or even just
like memes, or doctoring photos,or things like that. But it can
be used on a much deeper levelwith higher stakes. I'm thinking
about some photographs of a manin India who self-immolated and
(14:15):
was doing so as a protest. Butultimately, the photos were used
as kind of a political stunt forothers to get people on a
separate side. And I'm thinkingabout how photographs of people
with disabilities have been usedkind of for a similar thing,
where rather than actuallyallowing people to speak for
themselves and advocate for whatthey believe, they're actually
(14:36):
co-opted and used as images andobjects to support other
agendas.
Nicole Zimmerer (14:43):
Yeah, and more often than that, Inspo-Porn.
Sydney Mayer (14:48):
That's very true.
And that's a whole other thingto talk about, especially in
terms of representation inmedia. I don't know, any arc
that oversimplifies that victimor villain complex or anyone who
is... or the "overcoming" idea,that the only way to finish the
arc of disability is to overcomeit or be good despite of it. And
I think none of those are reallytrue for the actual experiences
(15:11):
of people with disabilities, whoare just like everybody else. We
are dimensional people with upsand downs, and we're good and
bad and can't be boiled downinto one small representation on
the screen.
Nicole Zimmerer (15:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Sydney Mayer (15:26):
But especially when you have such few
representations, or at least fewthoughtful representations,
those that you do have becomeeven more powerful and
important.
Nicole Zimmerer (15:34):
Yes. So we have to be very cognizant of when we
do get representation, we haveto be very um, we have to look
at it with a critical eye.
Sydney Mayer (15:47):
Absolutely.
There's an opportunity forrepresentation in media to be
used positively as well, it'snot just like a pitfall that we
can fall into, it's alsosomething that we can use to
introduce or open upconversations about other
topics. Like, in real lifesometimes it can be difficult to
identify those with invisibledisabilities, or really think
about invisible disabilitiesversus physical disabilities.
(16:08):
But I think that's somethingthat can be done in media and
have that conversation in areally different way.
Nicole Zimmerer (16:14):
Do you have an example of that?
Sydney Mayer (16:17):
Not off the top of my head, let me think of one.
Well, I do think a lot aboutdifferent representations of
autism in media, or where it'sassumed that a character
potentially has autism, and thatcan be somewhere on the line of
blurred between invisible andidentifiable disabilities from
the outside. And I think the waythat, even going back to
(16:38):
Criminal Minds, I think there'san assumption that Spencer Reid,
potentially has autism and thosedifferent representations of
that. I'm getting super offtrack here, but...
Nicole Zimmerer (16:47):
Well, it's really interesting because up
until recently when somebodyonline, said that, "Oh, I think
this, this character hasautism," I felt very, um, like I
felt very wary, I was like, I'drather it be said point blank.
Um, so a lot of people will viewSpencer Reid as a character that
(17:10):
is coded to be on the spectrum.
And I'm really interested tohear your thoughts on how we
deal with a character that isquote-unquote "coded," or people
perceive as coded to bedisabled, but it's never
explicitly stated by thecreators or the writers as such,
(17:31):
and how that affects disabilityrepresentation as a whole later
on.
Sydney Mayer (17:40):
Sure, it's really complicated, it gets dicey
pretty much immediately. And wewere talking with your wonderful
producer Scott before, so I'dlove to credit him for some of
his ideas as well, that whenpeople see characters on
television, who are may not havebeen intended to be written as
one thing or another, theysometimes find things that are
similar that they identify with.
And they say "that character islike me," or they diagnose a
(18:01):
character. When oftentimes, it'sprobably, the truth of the birth
of that character is that awriter saw someone in the real
world being very interesting,doing interesting things and
wanted to write a characterbeing just as interesting, and
weird, and fun, but they may notactually understand the reasons
why the real person in the worldmight be behaving that way,
because they might... they mightbe manic, they might have severe
(18:23):
ADHD, they might be on thespectrum, they might have a
variety of comorbidities thatinform their behavior, that
don't, that do not go forward toinforming the character on a
show. So when you have theaudience who believes or
diagnosis a character withsomething that the writers are
not necessarily on the same pageabout, you can get into some
really dicey territory aboutwhat responsible representation
(18:45):
is. Like we've talked earlier inthis podcast about, you know,
how important it is to haveresponsible representation,
positive representations. But itcan be really hard to do so when
your audiences, your actors, andyour writers aren't necessarily
on the same page about whatyou're representing. So you can
have people saying, you know,"Oh, a character with autism
would not behave that way," andthe writer might say, "But I
(19:07):
didn't write this character withautism!" So you can get into
some really tricky territoryabout how you're actually doing
that representation. Andunfortunately, I don't have a
real suggestion or bow to tiethat up in, but it's just
another reason that it'simportant that we be mindful
about our conversations aboutdisability representation, and
actually talk about it insteadof using it as some kind of
(19:29):
taboo word or buzzword aboutaccessibility to actually really
get into the deep end of theseconversations and say, yes, it's
hard and we're not going to findthe answer, and we're not going
to tie it up in a bow but it'sworth talking about because it's
important.
Nicole Zimmerer (19:44):
I completely agree. It gets really wild on
Twitter really fast.
Sydney Mayer (19:49):
It really does get wild on Twitter immediately.
Nicole Zimmerer (19:52):
Yep, yep. Um, speaking of the word
accessibility, can we talk aboutthe two very different
definitions of the wordaccessibility in terms of the
arts and theatre, because at thebeginning of the pandemic, there
was a lot of talk about, youknow, making theatre more
(20:13):
accessible, and for me as adisabled person, I was like,
"You mean more ramps? You mean,no more stairs? That's awesome!"
But the other side of it is,like more accessible in terms of
like, cheaper tickets, videorecordings of shows, and um... I
(20:33):
have a degree in words, and Icompletely forgot what I was
gonna say, I have two degreesand words, and um it just...
give me a second.
Sydney Mayer (20:44):
Just the different sides of accessibility, like the
practical sides and kind of themore heady, theoretical
buzzword-y ones...
Nicole Zimmerer (20:52):
Yeah, the buzzwords that the companies use
to be like, "Look at us, we'reactually doing the work!" And
I'm like, "Are you though? Areyou?"
Sydney Mayer (21:01):
No... It's when companies say they care about
accessibility, and I believethat they care about
accessibility, but they're notreally doing anything.
Nicole Zimmerer (21:08):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (21:08):
So to say "we care about accessibility" is not
really the full picture of doingsomething about it. And in all
fairness, that's, that's alsoreally complicated territory.
Like, we can totally get intodifferent reasons why some of
those like, especially likedistributing theatre, or live
media, virtually, obviously thatgets into difficult territory.
Nicole Zimmerer (21:29):
Well, we talked in the last podcast with my
friend, Alethea, about thisquote-unquote "disability
revolution" that's coming, andhow it's a nice word to say, and
it's a nice thought to think,but there's a lot of, there's a
lot of work that needs to bedone in terms of like, actually
getting to the point of completeequity in the arts, when it
(21:53):
comes to like, disability anddisability representation. And I
think both, both definitions ofaccessibility are very crucial
to that, because some disabledpeople need ramps, and some
disabled people need cheapertickets, because disability is
forced poverty, especially inthis country... fun fact.
Sydney Mayer (22:15):
Let's talk about health care.
Nicole Zimmerer (22:17):
Hah, let's not...
Sydney Mayer (22:19):
Well that's a different podcast.
Nicole Zimmerer (22:20):
That is a different podcast. And some
disabled people want to go tosee the theatre, and they can't,
because they are, you know, theyhave limited mobility. But that
doesn't mean that they shouldn'tbe able to enjoy the same things
that other people can enjoy.
Does that make sense?
Sydney Mayer (22:41):
Yeah, or having like sign language interpreters
at other entertainment and mediaevents to make it accessible to
even more audiences who... Allaudiences deserve access to
these kinds of arts and stories,and to prohibit some audiences
from having it for things thatare absolutely preventable or
changeable is obscene to me.
Nicole Zimmerer (22:58):
Yeah. I keep thinking back to your comments
on the photos of disabled peoplethat are used to persuade the
general public about something,or to... that are used to like,
be like, "See? Look at this."And I just, I really want to
(23:20):
talk about, more in depth, theterm Inspo-Porn and what it
means and how good intentionsfrom people outside the
community are actually harmingthat community. If you have any
thoughts?
Sydney Mayer (23:37):
Absolutely, I think it really comes down to
when people in the community'svoices are overtaken by those
outside of the community,whether or not their intentions
are good or bad, but at somepoint, people believe that they
have the right to speak forothers, or they can say it
better than others. And I thinkat some point, when whatever
marginalized community loses theability to speak for themselves,
(23:57):
you're already going down apretty bad, a pretty bad path.
Nicole Zimmerer (23:59):
Yeah. Before we get into Inspo-Porn... the
definition of Inspo-Porn, um, itis not sexy. We are very turned
off by Inspo-Porn.
Sydney Mayer (24:12):
Yeah, it's shorthand for Inspirational
Porn, and it's basically theportrayal of people with
disabilities as inspirational,based solely because of their
disability or because they'veovercome it.
Nicole Zimmerer (24:23):
It was coined by the late, great disability
activist Stella Young, in Ithink 2013 is when her TED Talk
is? Or when her TED Talk wasfilmed. And Sydney, do you have
any examples of Inspiration Pornfor the, for the general public?
Sydney Mayer (24:44):
Sure. I mean, I'm kind of, I'm thinking about when
you know, when you scrollthrough Facebook sometimes you
get, you know, video reels thatare like, "Oh, look at this
small child getting yourcochlear implant and hearing
their mom say, like, 'I loveyou' for the first time out
loud," and yes, that is whatwonderful, and beautiful, and
good, but it also overshadows alot of the other disabilities
(25:05):
and difficulties that those withhearing loss or hearing
difficulty go through, in thatit's really not affordable or
accessible to get a cochlearimplant. And there's so many
other things, not necessarilythe exact same type, but
generally it's the same ideathat people who are overcoming
their disabilities or, or Ifound a video that, like a whole
(25:26):
school contributed funds to getone kid a new wheelchair, and
that's great and I'm really gladthat kid has a new wheelchair.
But that really undercuts thesystemic problems that people
with disabilities face. So Ithink Inspirational Porn or
Inspo-Porn is really a band aidto make able-bodied people feel
better, that things are actuallygoing to be okay.
Nicole Zimmerer (25:45):
Yeah. And it also, it objectifies the person
with a disability. It doesn'tmake them human anymore. It just
makes them an object in thisstory that we're telling, in
this rhetoric that we're giving.
Sydney Mayer (25:58):
Sure. They're just a vehicle for audience
catharsis.
Nicole Zimmerer (26:01):
Yeah. While they are like, they soothe the
soul for like, two minutes,maybe the world isn't as
horrible as we think it is.
Maybe there is hope in thisdumpster fire. It also does the
thing of where it makes theperson with the disability a
two-dimensional figure and notthe full blown person that they
are, with thoughts and feelings,and struggles and joys. And I
(26:25):
was talking about this, againwith Alethea the last episode,
but in this case, the people inthe videos are actual real
people, and this is just onesnapshot of their lives that
people think defines their wholeexistence. And it's just, we are
not here to inspire you or tomake you feel better about your
(26:50):
own personal situations. We arehere for the same reason you
are, to pay taxes and to die.
Sydney Mayer (27:00):
For utter chaos.
Nicole Zimmerer (27:01):
Utter chaos!
Sydney Mayer (27:01):
None of us asked to be here! And we are not
vehicles for the universe'scatharsis, so we are certainly
not vehicles for the catharsisof our peers.
Nicole Zimmerer (27:10):
Sydney, that was so beautiful. You really
showed your degree with wordsright then.
Sydney Mayer (27:15):
Haha.
Nicole Zimmerer (27:16):
I'm so happy.
Sydney Mayer (27:17):
I do love throwing in the word "catharsis" wherever
I can. I like to use catharsisas a verb. This is separate, but
I like to use catharsis as averb and be like, "Oh I'm sorry,
I gotta go home and, I gottacathart really hard later. I've
had a really long day," like, "Ireally need to cathart when I
get home!"
Nicole Zimmerer (27:31):
Amazing.
Sydney Mayer (27:32):
"I'm actually, I'm sorry I can't come, I'm actually
catharting tonight."
Nicole Zimmerer (27:34):
Haha, okay!
Sydney Mayer (27:37):
Carry on.
Nicole Zimmerer (27:37):
Um, so long story short, Inspirational Porn
is not sexy, we are very turnedoff by it. Everybody should be
turned off by it, don't youagree, Sydney?
Sydney Mayer (27:49):
Absolutely. And that's just one type of trope
that we fall into in media to beaware of. And I think it's one
of those things that's easier tosee once you can name.
Nicole Zimmerer (27:58):
I mean, I know that I sometimes fall into an
Inspo-Porn hole on Facebook.
Sydney Mayer (28:05):
Absolutely. It does make you feel good for five
minutes.
Nicole Zimmerer (28:07):
Yeah, I'm sorry. I said that sentence out
loud, mom. Um, but uh, youjust... A critical eye is really
what's needed for any form ofmedia consumption, really. And I
think, I think if we think aboutit critically, and we think, "Is
this really helping, you know,society and and, you know, the
(28:33):
people that it says it'shelping?" um, or not.
Sydney Mayer (28:37):
That's the thing.
You have to be able to holdthings at once and say like,
some pieces of media are bothdoing really beautiful things,
and you also have to hold on theother hand that some pieces of
what they're doing areirresponsible and reckless with
representation.
Nicole Zimmerer (28:51):
Yeah, yeah. The other tropes that the disabled
community has to deal with a lotspecifically for people on the
spectrum, they have to deal withthe savant trope that is... For
a media environment that hatesdisability representation, the
(29:14):
savant is everywhere.
Sydney Mayer (29:18):
That's the thing.
It's a useful plot device, butit's not a real representation
of people.
Nicole Zimmerer (29:22):
Right, right. I mean, some examples of this
trope are Dustin Hoffman in theRain Man. Sherlock Holmes in,
well--
Sydney Mayer (29:36):
All Sherlock Holmes?
Nicole Zimmerer (29:37):
All Sherlock Holmes, but specifically
Benedict Cumberbatch in SherlockHolmes and Freddie Highmore in
The Good Doctor, and I thinkit's interesting that this trope
is pervasive in today's media.
Also, it's very interesting thatanother term for this trope is
called the idiot savant. And soyou're literally calling
(29:57):
somebody, you know, an idiot,but you're also calling them a
genius at the same time. And Ithink that dichotomy is very
interesting.
Sydney Mayer (30:09):
Sure, you're undercutting them on both sides.
Nicole Zimmerer (30:11):
Yeah, yeah.
It's... the words we use arevery, it's very telling that we
use these words, and we don'tthink about it, but it, it
changes, it changes the waysociety views certain dynamics
within itself.
Sydney Mayer (30:33):
And I think something that's really
interesting about that is,because not only does it reflect
what people's perceptions are,even those potentially flawed
perceptions, but it also informswhat people think going forward
so the more we call it, theidiot savant syndrome, the more
we reinforce some of thosereally problematic tropes, that
both undercut someone'sintelligence and also refer to
(30:54):
them as an idiot. And so I thinkthose are times where not only
is our representation and mediaimportant, but also what we
termed these tropes, becauseit's very revealing that the
trope is damaging when you termit, "the idiot savant."
Nicole Zimmerer (31:08):
Yeah. And then, you know, a person with
well-meaning intentions, and Ioften think of the word
"well-meaning," because most ofthe time when I have a very
weird interaction with anon-disabled person about my
disability, they, they're rude,but they don't know they're
(31:31):
being rude because they're sowell-intentioned, and it's on me
to be like, "I know you'retrying to be nice, but that's
actually like, not cool." Um...
Sydney Mayer (31:41):
That's why you need more creators who actually,
like, are disabled writing theirown stories as well. I mean--
Nicole Zimmerer (31:47):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (31:47):
--that's bviously a whole other
onversation we could get intond talk about for a long time.
ut it's important that you alsoave writers representing their
wn stories and things thathey're informed about. So that
eally helps doing it in aesponsible, productive way.
Nicole Zimmerer (32:00):
Yeah. Because the idiot savant trope is so
Sydney Mayer (32:00):
Absolutely. So I think that is one thing that we
pervasive, when somebody who haswatched these examples of media
meets a person on the spectrum,and they don't conform to that
trope, they are confused whythey're not solving crimes, or
(32:22):
being the world's greatestdoctor, or the world's greatest
have to talk about when we talkabout disabilities is that a lot
mathematician, when they've onlyseen this disability in terms of
great genius. So people say tothemselves, "Oh, he's, or she's
on the spectrum, they'resocially awkward, they must have
(32:44):
a redeeming superpower," and Ithink that's very harmful. But
of them also are our strengthsin many ways, but those don't,
it's not just the autisticcommunity that's affected by
this. Sydney, I, would you mindtalking about how this also
affects the Deaf Community andthe Hard of Hearing Community?
(33:11):
those aren't excuses orjustifications for the rest of
it. And I'm thinking about howthat potentially applies in the
hard of hearing, or DeafCommunity, in that there,
there's a lot of media thatincorporates them being
particularly good at rhythm andsensing beats, and having
another kind of musicalinclination despite being deaf
or hard of hearing. And I thinksometimes that's just, that's a
(33:33):
personal thing at the time,but...
Nicole Zimmerer (33:35):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (33:36):
So I think to ascribe particular qualities, or
superpowers, or difficulties toan entire group is really
reductive. Because the truth ofa lot of disabilities is that
we're dealing with a wholecocktail of different things of
depression, and ADHD, andanxiety. And a lot of things are
manifesting differently in eachindividual person. So when you
have these tropes, I think thatcontributes to a reductive sense
(33:59):
of what certain disabilitiesare, which contributes to a
misdiagnosis in reality andcontributes to just
misunderstood perceptions.
Nicole Zimmerer (34:07):
I will say we are getting very intellectual
this episode and I'm veryexcited about it. I'm super
pumped. Because I'm a nerd.
Sydney Mayer (34:16):
Well, we haven't had a college class together in
two years, Nicole. We have to doit together again now!
Nicole Zimmerer (34:20):
I know! You know what this is?
Sydney Mayer (34:23):
What is it?
Nicole Zimmerer (34:23):
A catharsis!
Sydney Mayer (34:24):
It is catharsis.
Nicole Zimmerer (34:25):
It's a catharsis.
Sydney Mayer (34:26):
Next time we gotta have Stephanie on.
Nicole Zimmerer (34:28):
Yeah. Oh, I would love to have Stephanie on!
She taught me so much. I loveher. But I like, I remember, my
friend met a deaf person. Andshe had never met a deaf person,
which I thought was weird, butshe was like, "Yeah, and he
doesn't have a cochlear implant.
I think that's strange. Like,why wouldn't you want to hear?"
(34:50):
And I was like, "Well, that's achoice for that particular
person." I mean, I mean, I'mthinking about a Reddit post
that I saw like, the Am I TheAsshole? And it was about this
deaf woman, she's the only deafperson in her family, and she's
marrying a deaf man who is partof a deaf family. And so they
(35:15):
are fully integrated into thecommunity. And she, when she
left home, she was fullyintegrated into the community.
And also just as an aside, likethe deaf Community seems really
awesome, because like you... Imean, I asked my friend, um
(35:36):
(different friend), but I askedmy friends, "In the realm of
disability, why do you think theDeaf has like, has a more intact
system," um...
Sydney Mayer (35:52):
Culture.
Nicole Zimmerer (35:53):
"...culture."
Sydney Mayer (35:53):
I think in part it's hereditary is part of it.
Nicole Zimmerer (35:56):
Yes.
Sydney Mayer (35:57):
I know that my grandmother is, was deaf and
hard of hearing, and so herdaughter became a sign language
interpreter, and I obviouslyhave hearing difficulties of my
own.
Nicole Zimmerer (36:05):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (36:05):
So it's really kind of a family affair. And so
it's, I think that's been a hugepart of it as well. And speaking
of my grandmother, shespecifically chose toward the
end not to wear her, her hearingaids. And I think, you know,
that had to do with some otherdifficulties that she was
dealing with it, but then shecould really filter out the
sounds that she was, you know,that were coming into her. So
(36:26):
it's a perfectly normal andregular choice and to assume
that having hearing ispreferable as ableist in itself.
Nicole Zimmerer (36:33):
Yes. Also, I think what really solidifies the
Deaf culture is like, there's alanguage, that's universal,
basically. And language is acornerstone of culture, so, you
know. This woman who's gettingmarried, I don't know why I'm
going on about this story, butshe wanted to have the wedding
(36:59):
in ASL, but to have a hearinginterpreter instead of the other
way around, which I thought wasfucking awesome.
Sydney Mayer (37:07):
That's cool.
Nicole Zimmerer (37:08):
But the question that she said, like,
'Hey, am I the asshole for doingthis?" is because her hearing
family got mad. And I was like,"It's your wedding dude," like
I'm actually talking to her. I'mnot, I do not know this woman at
all. But I just, I just find itinteresting that non-disabled
(37:28):
people have... when a disabledperson's choice doesn't fit with
the non-disabled person's ideaof that disabled person, it
confuses them. And I don't knowwhere I was going with this
point, but I was going somewhereand I lost it. I apologize.
Scott MacDonald (37:50):
No, yeah. I mean, that's good. It also, it
connects to privilege and kindof like, you know, when people
experience a lack of privilegefor the first time, or on rare
occurrences, it feels like tothem...
Nicole Zimmerer (38:04):
An attack.
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (38:05):
Oh, sure.
Nicole Zimmerer (38:06):
Yeah.
Non-disabled people are used tobeing the center of attention,
or the person that societycaters to first. And whenever
they're, they're not the personwho gets catered to first, it
seems like an inconvenience, andlike a personal attack when it's
really not.
Scott MacDonald (38:29):
And I think that's kind of like exactly
what's happening in thisexample. But it's also like, no,
you're not the asshole becauseyou're accommodating... like,
what? They're gonna, they're notgoing to not know what's going
on. There's an interpreter.
Nicole Zimmerer (38:41):
Yeah.
Scott MacDonald (38:42):
So, I don't know. I'd be like, "Yeah, have
your fucking wedding." If shewas like, "And I'm not gonna
have an interpreter, it's justgonna be quiet, and all these
people are just gonna be sittingthere confused," then you're
kind of an asshole. Because thenyou're just, it's not a fun
time. Right? Why did they showup, and put on their suit, and
drive all the way there, and getyou a gift, if you're just gonna
make them sit there and theyhave no idea what's going on?
Sydney Mayer (39:01):
No, it's, at that point it's not offensive, it's
inconvenient and annoying. Butit's not like--
Scott MacDonald (39:05):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (39:05):
It's inconvenient as like a cash bar.
Scott MacDonald (39:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer (39:08):
Yeah.
Scott MacDonald (39:08):
It's like, don't plan a shitty wedding. It
just gets down to that.
Sydney Mayer (39:11):
Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer (39:11):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (39:12):
But it's not like, problematic.
Nicole Zimmerer (39:14):
You know, you know what? Actually, if I was
the woman who was fighting withher parents about, you know,
having a hearing interpreter,I'd be like, "Fine, the hearing
interpreter can go. You can comeif you want, but you're not
gonna be able to understandanything," because I am petty.
But Sydney um, this episode hasbeen all over the place because
(39:37):
you and I are two people withADHD. Can you give us a quick
TLDR for this whole interview,please?
Sydney Mayer (39:46):
Yeah, it's important to be aware of these
tropes, so we can name them,identify them when they happen,
and advocate for more positiverepresentation going forward.
And for those out there who arewriters and storytellers of
their own means, it's justimportant to be really cognizant
and responsible with what you'rewriting, because as media has
(40:07):
such a large and wide impact,you might have an impact beyond
things that you've thoughtabout.
Nicole Zimmerer (40:13):
Perfect.
Perfect. That was a perfectTLDR.
Sydney Mayer (40:17):
Yeah. Anyway!
Nicole Zimmerer (40:19):
To celebrate the fact that this episode has
been recorded like a drunkperson walking home, we are
going to do a brand new segmentcalled, I Love It / I Hate It,
where we talk about something wehave a love/hate relationship
with in the arts or within ourown lives that connects with
(40:40):
disability. And today, we aregoing to be talking about ADHD
with Sydney Mayer.
Sydney Mayer (40:45):
And I would say the way to sum up my
relationship with my ADHD hasbeen pretty much "love it / hate
it" over and on, on and offthroughout the years.
Nicole Zimmerer (40:53):
Right. Sydney, let's start with something you
love.
Sydney Mayer (40:57):
Well, I really love the ability to hyperfocus.
And while that sometimes comeswith drawbacks of its own, it's
been really useful for me,especially getting through such
a rigorous postgraduate program.
Nicole Zimmerer (41:09):
And something you hate.
Sydney Mayer (41:11):
Ooh, executive dysfunction. Sometimes I am just
physically unable to do thethings that I can do, and know I
need to do, like sending anemail sometimes is the hardest
thing for me to do, even thoughit takes less than two minutes
to actually do it, I'm trulyparalyzed and absolutely
cannot... um, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer (41:33):
It takes me like a whole week and a half to
respond to one email, whichtakes like 30 seconds. It's
amazing. It's amazing.
Sydney Mayer (41:41):
I think that's the thing with ADHD is like all of
those love it / hate it thingsare really intertwined, in that,
you know, hyperfocusing is areal strength for me and I'm
glad that I was able to use itthroughout finals. But on the
opposite hand, people with ADHDalso suffer from time blindness
meaning, exactly what it soundslike, that they don't understand
the passage of time sometimeswhen they're hyperfocusing. So I
(42:03):
will work all day, and then Iwill forget to eat, and drink,
and pee, and I will not actuallyhave done the executive
functions I need to survive. Orthese other moments of
hyperfocus versus paralysis,where I won't be able to work
all day and then suddenly, at3:00 AM, I'll suddenly have the
motivation to do everything onthe planet. And then the next
day, I will not have sleptbefore I have to go to my
(42:25):
work-job that I have notresponded to emails for. And so
it's, it's all cyclical. But intruth, I really do find that
ADHD has been a source ofcreativity and positivity for
me. And honestly, there'ssomething to be said about
connecting with other people whohave ADHD, because I feel like
you function on a similar planeand it's like, magnets
connecting. And I think as muchas ADHD has provided a lot of
(42:49):
struggle in my life,particularly vis-a-vis education
and just general growing up,it's also been a real strength
for my creative prowess, Ithink.
Nicole Zimmerer (42:59):
That is a beautiful note to end on. Thank
you so much, Sydney.
Sydney Mayer (43:03):
Thank you for having me.
Nicole Zimmerer (43:05):
Sydney before you go, um, is there anything
you would like to plug? Anythingyou'd like to put out in the
world?
Sydney Mayer (43:11):
Sure, you can follow my Instagram
@sydney.isabelle, you can readmy Howlround article about
responsible theater makingpractices more in depth, find
that on Google and always happyto connect anywhere you find me.
Nicole Zimmerer (43:29):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
Break a Leg! And thank you toour guest, Sydney, for joining
s todaFollow us on Instagram and
Twitter @breakalegpod, that'sbreak a leg, P-O-D. Let us know
what you thought of the episodeor tell us who you think we
should have on next. For a fulltranscript of each episode, use
the link in the episodedescription. The easiest way to
(43:49):
support this show is by leavingus a review on Apple Podcasts.
And make sure to click thatSubscribe button! Break A Leg!
is produced by Scott MacDonald,and our cover art was created by
Sasha and Alexander Schwartz.
I'm Nicole Zimmerer and I willsee you next time.
Welcome to Break A Leg! A podcast that
explores the relationshipbetween disability and the arts.
I'm your host, Nicole Zimmerer,and on today's episode our guest
is Sydney Mayer. Sydney Mayer isa writer and dramaturg currently
based in Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania. She holds a BFA in
Drama and a minor in Literatureand Culture from Carnegie Mellon
(00:37):
University, where she iscurrently pursuing her Master's
degree in professional writing.
Hi, Sydney, welcome to the show.
Sydney Mayer (00:45):
Hi, Nicole, thank you for having me. I've been
super excited about doing this.
Nicole Zimmerer (00:49):
I'm super excited that you are doing this.
It's gonna be a good episode.
Sydney Mayer (00:53):
Yes!
Nicole Zimmerer (00:54):
Okay, so our first segment is called Spilling
the Disabili-Tea where we lookat historical or current events,
or share some interesting factsrelating to the disabled
community. And today's fun factsis really, really nerdy, we're
going to be looking at etymologyof terms used to describe the
disabled community.
Sydney Mayer (01:14):
Very exciting. I love etymology, I love getting
nerdy.
Nicole Zimmerer (01:18):
So the word handicap was first used to
describe the mentally andphysically disabled in the early
20th century, I believe, whenthe new fields of sociology and
social work started to look atpeople in terms of their place
in society as a whole. The termwas borrowed from horse racing,
(01:42):
when a faster, stronger, moresuperior horse was given a
handicap, quote-unquote"handicap," such as a weight or
a longer distance, or a laterstart to equalize the chances of
the competitors. Which is veryinteresting. I did not know that
(02:03):
at all.
Sydney Mayer (02:03):
That is really interesting.
Nicole Zimmerer (02:05):
Oh, it says, "if life was a horse race, a
person with a physicaldisability couldn't compete as
well, because of the burden theyhad been handed, not because
they were defective by nature,"which is very interesting, when
you think about the social modelof disability, and not the
medical model of disability. Oh,that's interesting. Um, so
(02:28):
handicap was the big word upuntil the birth of the
disability rights movement. Theleaders of the disability rights
movement rejected the term"handicap" in favor of disabled,
and it replaced other terms thathave have emaculated with all
the other terrible connotations.
Sydney Mayer (02:50):
It's really interesting how the language we
use to describe ourselvesevolves over time going from
"handicapped" to "disabled."
Nicole Zimmerer (02:57):
Right.
Sydney Mayer (02:57):
And now conversations about using other
words like "differently-abled."I remember, Nicole, you and I
met in the disabilityrepresentation class, and we
spent about a week speaking withthe teacher trying to figure out
a common language for the wholegroup to use, which I think we
never really got a clean answerto.
Nicole Zimmerer (03:14):
Well, it's really interesting because a lot
of disability activists, saythings like "just use the term
disabled, it's not, it's not abad word, just say it." It's
like, I personally believe justuse the term disabled, like call
a spade a spade, you know what Imean? When people say, like,
(03:37):
"handicapped" or"differently-abled," or my very,
very favorite one "specialneeds," I just feel like I'm
being talked down to as aperson. And that doesn't make me
feel good. So it's reallyinteresting when you, when you
think about, like, the disabledcommunity reclaiming that word.
Sydney Mayer (03:57):
Absolutely. And I think there's so much about our
disabilities to reclaim in manyways, some of them can be super
powers and things that reallybolster your identity. So I
don't know avoiding thosenegative connotations and giving
the ownership back to a groupwho's taking control over that
word again is important.
Nicole Zimmerer (04:13):
Yeah. And I also feel like we're also
reclaiming the word "cripple." Imean, I know some people in our
communities are like, "I don'tlike that word," and I'm like
"cool," um, it's all aboutpersonal preference, and I think
every disabled person isdifferent, disability is not a
monolith, we e have differentidentities.
Sydney Mayer (04:35):
Sure. I mean, it's like the word "queer" in the
queer community, that there'sflexibility in who is
comfortable claiming thatlanguage.
Nicole Zimmerer (04:42):
Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, dear listeners, if
you run into a disabled personin the street, which you will
definitely, definitely do, weare out there and we do exist...
obviously. We're here right nowtalking to you. Just ask what
(05:02):
their preference is, if you getto that point of the
conversation, it's like askingsomebody's name or somebody's
pronouns.
Sydney Mayer (05:11):
That's true.
Nicole Zimmerer (05:12):
I know there's a lot of language surrounding
disability and I know that it isconfusing to non-disabled
people, but I just want to tellyou we're pretty open, once we
get to know you. Like, don'tcome up to a disabled person and
be like, "So what happened toyou?" cause, uh, that's not
(05:33):
cool. But you know, if you'rehaving, if you're having a
conversation with somebody, andthe topic of disability comes
up, just follow their lead, isthe best advice that I can give
you and guidance that I can giveyou. And if you have any
questions, I'm sure if you askpolitely, I'm sure the person
(05:59):
you're talking with would behappy to tell you the words
they're comfortable using andhow to have a respectful
conversation between two humanbeings, is what we all want in
this world. So, that's all Ihave to say on that. Sydney, do
you have anything else?
Sydney Mayer (06:19):
No, I just think it's important to talk about it,
demystify it, and allow those inmarginalized groups to select
the language that we use to talkabout it.
Nicole Zimmerer (06:28):
For sure.
Excellent. Excellent. Yep. So,Sydney, tell the people who you
are, tell us what your deal is,tell us what your damage is.
Let's really dig in.
Sydney Mayer (06:38):
Ooh what's my damage? That's a good question.
All right. Well, I typicallyidentify as like my primary
disability being ADHD, because Ibelieve most of the
comorbidities and other things Ideal with mostly stem from that.
But I also have some hearingloss and auditory processing
disorders.
Nicole Zimmerer (06:54):
That's fun.
Sydney Mayer (06:56):
It's not that fun, but sometimes it's cool, but it
always means I have the captionson my TV.
Nicole Zimmerer (07:00):
I love captions. I don't know why
people bitch about them all thetime. I think they're great.
Sydney Mayer (07:05):
They are great, but sometimes people can be a
lot more responsible about howthey're actually placing their
captions. I was watching NewGirl last night and whenever
they've got like theintroductory of like, "Created
by...", "Executive Producerwho...", the captions all go
above their faces so you can nolonger see the faces of the
actors who are speaking.
Nicole Zimmerer (07:21):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (07:21):
So good intention, poor execution, but...
Nicole Zimmerer (07:24):
Which is you know, par for the course...
Sydney Mayer (07:26):
Oftentimes the case.
Nicole Zimmerer (07:27):
Yeah, I like, that is the one point that is
the one stick in my craw aboutcaptions is sometimes I'm like,
"I just want to see the emotionsof the actors, because that's
why we're here!" But, you knowwho has really good captions?
Disney+. Disney+... A+ captions.
Sydney Mayer (07:46):
Excellent. You know who has the worst captions?
YouTube.
Nicole Zimmerer (07:49):
You--Oh, god, god awful captions on YouTube.
Sydney Mayer (07:53):
But yeah, that's that's generally my damage, and
given that personal experience,I've really been interested in
doing more disability studieswork at the undergraduate and
graduate level, so I've alsodived in more as a scholar as
well.
Nicole Zimmerer (08:05):
Cool, cool. Um, you said, you mentioned
something about rhetoric. Canyou talk about rhetoric and what
it is, and then we'll get intolike the rhetoric of disability
that we see in our societytoday.
Sydney Mayer (08:18):
Absolutely. I think we're just talking about
my interest in discussingrhetoric and representation in
Arts and Media of disabilityand--
Nicole Zimmerer (08:26):
The words we use.
Sydney Mayer (08:28):
Give me one second to check my notes because
Stephanie had the perfectdefinition of rhetoric that I
wanted to use.
Nicole Zimmerer (08:33):
For those of you who don't know, Stephanie R.
Larson was our professor at CMUwhere Sydney and I took her
class, I think it was calledDisability in Our Society? Was
it?
Sydney Mayer (08:46):
It was uh...
Disability Representation inMedia.
Nicole Zimmerer (08:50):
Was it? I thought it had the word society
in it.
Sydney Mayer (08:53):
Maybe we're both wrong, I could check my
transcript, but I don't thinkthe audience has time for that.
Nicole Zimmerer (08:58):
No, no, it was something about disability, and
believe me when I say it was oneof the best classes I've ever
taken.
Sydney Mayer (09:06):
Always take a Stephanie class. And I'll
definitely, I'll creditStephanie for a lot of the basis
of my knowledge in disabilityrhetoric, outside of my own
personal experience, she'sreally been a great foundational
resource for that. But herdefinition is really that
rhetoric is the art ofpersuasion or messaging, either
viscerally, bodily, or inwriting, or verbally. So really
(09:28):
just talking about how we'resending messages to one another,
directly and indirectly.
Nicole Zimmerer (09:34):
Right, right.
So how do you think that affectsdisability in terms of the arts
and society and how we viewrepresentation of disability in
the media?
Sydney Mayer (09:46):
So one thing about representation in the media is
that it oftentimes informsaudiences perceptions of what
reality is, and sometimes that'stheir only exposure to people
who are different thanthemselves. So we need to be
really responsible with whatwe're doing with our
representation, and as much aswe can go into that with many
other things, likerepresentations of rape,
(10:07):
representations of race, I thinkone other thing that we can
really talk about and bethoughtful with is
representations of disability.
And so when we're thinkingabout, you know, just off the
top of my head, like, CriminalMinds has a lot of like
episode-to-episode arcs withtheir criminals, and pretty
frequently they diagnose theircriminals with a certain kind of
disability as some kind ofjustification or villain arc.
(10:29):
And so I think when we'rereproducing those stories pretty
often, then we are reaffirmingstereotypes and poor
connotations around disability.
And so I think it's reallyimportant to be thoughtful about
how you're representing thesethings on a mass scale.
Nicole Zimmerer (10:49):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (10:50):
I think most of all, it comes down to this idea
that you want to like "other"that kind of violent person in a
way that disassociates you fromhaving to take responsibility
for any similarities orculpability you may have in the
past, present, or future, but...
Nicole Zimmerer (11:03):
Yeah, there's a play anthology of disability
plays. It's called "[Beyond]Victims and Villians," or
"Villains and..." anyway, it'svery good, I have on my
bookshelf, I'm not going to lookfor it.
Sydney Mayer (11:15):
Ooh, yet another play to borrow from Nicole.
Nicole Zimmerer (11:18):
Yeah, actually, it's like six plays. It's a
huge, thick anthology. It's nota recent anthology, so some of
the plays I like, raise my eyesa little bit, I'm like, "Okay,
you say you're stoppingstereotypes, but there's some in
here... but okay! I'm gonna readyou anyway." Um, if we look at
(11:39):
the disabled figures we have inmedia, I immediately think of
Richard III, for the victim, Imean the villain, he's
definitely not a victim. Andthen I think of Lionel Barrymore
in it's a wonderful life. Andthen for the victims I'm like,
Tiny Tim, Laura Wingfield... thelist goes on and on, I mean, you
(12:04):
just, you just have to thinkabout it and it's right there.
So it's just really interestinghow words really do have power
and really do affect society.
And I think, hopefully, peopleare being more cognizant of that
power that they wield. Sydney,do you have any, like, favorite
examples of disabilityrepresentation in rhetoric? And,
(12:30):
or do you have any examples ofdisability and rhetoric that you
would like to talk about?
Sydney Mayer (12:37):
Definitely. And as easy of a trap, as it is to fall
into, there are also peopledoing it really well, positively
with this rhetoric andrepresentation of disabilities.
I think, specifically to DeafWest's revival of Spring
Awakening on Broadway, in whichthey included a lot of deaf
actors and sign language was areally key piece of the
choreography. I thought that wasdone really thoughtfully and
(13:00):
excellently. So that's not tosay it can't be done, because it
absolutely can be. And I believethat it fully enriched the art
and really added to the story. Idefinitely liked watching Wendla
and kind of two perspectiveswith both the deaf and hearing
actor, it really allowed me tosee more sides of her character.
So I think there's there's lotsof benefit in doing productive
(13:20):
disability representation.
Nicole Zimmerer (13:22):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (13:23):
So referring back to Stephanie Larson, again, I
took another course with hercalled The Rhetoric of the Body,
in which we really spoke aboutmessaging viscerally through
bodies. And we talked a lotabout photos of those who were
disabled, or those who areexperiencing violence, as a
method of persuasion and talkingabout how that is ultimately,
(13:44):
just an objectification.
Nicole Zimmerer (13:46):
Yeah. Yeah.
Sydney, can you talk more aboutwhat you mean, when you say
persuasion?
Sydney Mayer (13:53):
Sure, I mean, the visual or verbal messaging to
audiences to get them to agreewith whatever you are putting
forth, whatever is on your side.
And this could be used in apolitical means or even just
like memes, or doctoring photos,or things like that. But it can
be used on a much deeper levelwith higher stakes. I'm thinking
about some photographs of a manin India who self-immolated and
(14:15):
was doing so as a protest. Butultimately, the photos were used
as kind of a political stunt forothers to get people on a
separate side. And I'm thinkingabout how photographs of people
with disabilities have been usedkind of for a similar thing,
where rather than actuallyallowing people to speak for
themselves and advocate for whatthey believe, they're actually
(14:36):
co-opted and used as images andobjects to support other
agendas.
Nicole Zimmerer (14:43):
Yeah, and more often than that, Inspo-Porn.
Sydney Mayer (14:48):
That's very true.
And that's a whole other thingto talk about, especially in
terms of representation inmedia. I don't know, any arc
that oversimplifies that victimor villain complex or anyone who
is... or the "overcoming" idea,that the only way to finish the
arc of disability is to overcomeit or be good despite of it. And
I think none of those are reallytrue for the actual experiences
(15:11):
of people with disabilities, whoare just like everybody else. We
are dimensional people with upsand downs, and we're good and
bad and can't be boiled downinto one small representation on
the screen.
Nicole Zimmerer (15:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Sydney Mayer (15:26):
But especially when you have such few
representations, or at least fewthoughtful representations,
those that you do have becomeeven more powerful and
important.
Nicole Zimmerer (15:34):
Yes. So we have to be very cognizant of when we
do get representation, we haveto be very um, we have to look
at it with a critical eye.
Sydney Mayer (15:47):
Absolutely.
There's an opportunity forrepresentation in media to be
used positively as well, it'snot just like a pitfall that we
can fall into, it's alsosomething that we can use to
introduce or open upconversations about other
topics. Like, in real lifesometimes it can be difficult to
identify those with invisibledisabilities, or really think
about invisible disabilitiesversus physical disabilities.
(16:08):
But I think that's somethingthat can be done in media and
have that conversation in areally different way.
Nicole Zimmerer (16:14):
Do you have an example of that?
Sydney Mayer (16:17):
Not off the top of my head, let me think of one.
Well, I do think a lot aboutdifferent representations of
autism in media, or where it'sassumed that a character
potentially has autism, and thatcan be somewhere on the line of
blurred between invisible andidentifiable disabilities from
the outside. And I think the waythat, even going back to
(16:38):
Criminal Minds, I think there'san assumption that Spencer Reid,
potentially has autism and thosedifferent representations of
that. I'm getting super offtrack here, but...
Nicole Zimmerer (16:47):
Well, it's really interesting because up
until recently when somebodyonline, said that, "Oh, I think
this, this character hasautism," I felt very, um, like I
felt very wary, I was like, I'drather it be said point blank.
Um, so a lot of people will viewSpencer Reid as a character that
(17:10):
is coded to be on the spectrum.
And I'm really interested tohear your thoughts on how we
deal with a character that isquote-unquote "coded," or people
perceive as coded to bedisabled, but it's never
explicitly stated by thecreators or the writers as such,
(17:31):
and how that affects disabilityrepresentation as a whole later
on.
Sydney Mayer (17:40):
Sure, it's really complicated, it gets dicey
pretty much immediately. And wewere talking with your wonderful
producer Scott before, so I'dlove to credit him for some of
his ideas as well, that whenpeople see characters on
television, who are may not havebeen intended to be written as
one thing or another, theysometimes find things that are
similar that they identify with.
And they say "that character islike me," or they diagnose a
(18:01):
character. When oftentimes, it'sprobably, the truth of the birth
of that character is that awriter saw someone in the real
world being very interesting,doing interesting things and
wanted to write a characterbeing just as interesting, and
weird, and fun, but they may notactually understand the reasons
why the real person in the worldmight be behaving that way,
because they might... they mightbe manic, they might have severe
(18:23):
ADHD, they might be on thespectrum, they might have a
variety of comorbidities thatinform their behavior, that
don't, that do not go forward toinforming the character on a
show. So when you have theaudience who believes or
diagnosis a character withsomething that the writers are
not necessarily on the same pageabout, you can get into some
really dicey territory aboutwhat responsible representation
(18:45):
is. Like we've talked earlier inthis podcast about, you know,
how important it is to haveresponsible representation,
positive representations. But itcan be really hard to do so when
your audiences, your actors, andyour writers aren't necessarily
on the same page about whatyou're representing. So you can
have people saying, you know,"Oh, a character with autism
would not behave that way," andthe writer might say, "But I
(19:07):
didn't write this character withautism!" So you can get into
some really tricky territoryabout how you're actually doing
that representation. Andunfortunately, I don't have a
real suggestion or bow to tiethat up in, but it's just
another reason that it'simportant that we be mindful
about our conversations aboutdisability representation, and
actually talk about it insteadof using it as some kind of
(19:29):
taboo word or buzzword aboutaccessibility to actually really
get into the deep end of theseconversations and say, yes, it's
hard and we're not going to findthe answer, and we're not going
to tie it up in a bow but it'sworth talking about because it's
important.
Nicole Zimmerer (19:44):
I completely agree. It gets really wild on
Twitter really fast.
Sydney Mayer (19:49):
It really does get wild on Twitter immediately.
Nicole Zimmerer (19:52):
Yep, yep. Um, speaking of the word
accessibility, can we talk aboutthe two very different
definitions of the wordaccessibility in terms of the
arts and theatre, because at thebeginning of the pandemic, there
was a lot of talk about, youknow, making theatre more
(20:13):
accessible, and for me as adisabled person, I was like,
"You mean more ramps? You mean,no more stairs? That's awesome!"
But the other side of it is,like more accessible in terms of
like, cheaper tickets, videorecordings of shows, and um... I
(20:33):
have a degree in words, and Icompletely forgot what I was
gonna say, I have two degreesand words, and um it just...
give me a second.
Sydney Mayer (20:44):
Just the different sides of accessibility, like the
practical sides and kind of themore heady, theoretical
buzzword-y ones...
Nicole Zimmerer (20:52):
Yeah, the buzzwords that the companies use
to be like, "Look at us, we'reactually doing the work!" And
I'm like, "Are you though? Areyou?"
Sydney Mayer (21:01):
No... It's when companies say they care about
accessibility, and I believethat they care about
accessibility, but they're notreally doing anything.
Nicole Zimmerer (21:08):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (21:08):
So to say "we care about accessibility" is not
really the full picture of doingsomething about it. And in all
fairness, that's, that's alsoreally complicated territory.
Like, we can totally get intodifferent reasons why some of
those like, especially likedistributing theatre, or live
media, virtually, obviously thatgets into difficult territory.
Nicole Zimmerer (21:29):
Well, we talked in the last podcast with my
friend, Alethea, about thisquote-unquote "disability
revolution" that's coming, andhow it's a nice word to say, and
it's a nice thought to think,but there's a lot of, there's a
lot of work that needs to bedone in terms of like, actually
getting to the point of completeequity in the arts, when it
(21:53):
comes to like, disability anddisability representation. And I
think both, both definitions ofaccessibility are very crucial
to that, because some disabledpeople need ramps, and some
disabled people need cheapertickets, because disability is
forced poverty, especially inthis country... fun fact.
Sydney Mayer (22:15):
Let's talk about health care.
Nicole Zimmerer (22:17):
Hah, let's not...
Sydney Mayer (22:19):
Well that's a different podcast.
Nicole Zimmerer (22:20):
That is a different podcast. And some
disabled people want to go tosee the theatre, and they can't,
because they are, you know, theyhave limited mobility. But that
doesn't mean that they shouldn'tbe able to enjoy the same things
that other people can enjoy.
Does that make sense?
Sydney Mayer (22:41):
Yeah, or having like sign language interpreters
at other entertainment and mediaevents to make it accessible to
even more audiences who... Allaudiences deserve access to
these kinds of arts and stories,and to prohibit some audiences
from having it for things thatare absolutely preventable or
changeable is obscene to me.
Nicole Zimmerer (22:58):
Yeah. I keep thinking back to your comments
on the photos of disabled peoplethat are used to persuade the
general public about something,or to... that are used to like,
be like, "See? Look at this."And I just, I really want to
(23:20):
talk about, more in depth, theterm Inspo-Porn and what it
means and how good intentionsfrom people outside the
community are actually harmingthat community. If you have any
thoughts?
Sydney Mayer (23:37):
Absolutely, I think it really comes down to
when people in the community'svoices are overtaken by those
outside of the community,whether or not their intentions
are good or bad, but at somepoint, people believe that they
have the right to speak forothers, or they can say it
better than others. And I thinkat some point, when whatever
marginalized community loses theability to speak for themselves,
(23:57):
you're already going down apretty bad, a pretty bad path.
Nicole Zimmerer (23:59):
Yeah. Before we get into Inspo-Porn... the
definition of Inspo-Porn, um, itis not sexy. We are very turned
off by Inspo-Porn.
Sydney Mayer (24:12):
Yeah, it's shorthand for Inspirational
Porn, and it's basically theportrayal of people with
disabilities as inspirational,based solely because of their
disability or because they'veovercome it.
Nicole Zimmerer (24:23):
It was coined by the late, great disability
activist Stella Young, in Ithink 2013 is when her TED Talk
is? Or when her TED Talk wasfilmed. And Sydney, do you have
any examples of Inspiration Pornfor the, for the general public?
Sydney Mayer (24:44):
Sure. I mean, I'm kind of, I'm thinking about when
you know, when you scrollthrough Facebook sometimes you
get, you know, video reels thatare like, "Oh, look at this
small child getting yourcochlear implant and hearing
their mom say, like, 'I loveyou' for the first time out
loud," and yes, that is whatwonderful, and beautiful, and
good, but it also overshadows alot of the other disabilities
(25:05):
and difficulties that those withhearing loss or hearing
difficulty go through, in thatit's really not affordable or
accessible to get a cochlearimplant. And there's so many
other things, not necessarilythe exact same type, but
generally it's the same ideathat people who are overcoming
their disabilities or, or Ifound a video that, like a whole
(25:26):
school contributed funds to getone kid a new wheelchair, and
that's great and I'm really gladthat kid has a new wheelchair.
But that really undercuts thesystemic problems that people
with disabilities face. So Ithink Inspirational Porn or
Inspo-Porn is really a band aidto make able-bodied people feel
better, that things are actuallygoing to be okay.
Nicole Zimmerer (25:45):
Yeah. And it also, it objectifies the person
with a disability. It doesn'tmake them human anymore. It just
makes them an object in thisstory that we're telling, in
this rhetoric that we're giving.
Sydney Mayer (25:58):
Sure. They're just a vehicle for audience
catharsis.
Nicole Zimmerer (26:01):
Yeah. While they are like, they soothe the
soul for like, two minutes,maybe the world isn't as
horrible as we think it is.
Maybe there is hope in thisdumpster fire. It also does the
thing of where it makes theperson with the disability a
two-dimensional figure and notthe full blown person that they
are, with thoughts and feelings,and struggles and joys. And I
(26:25):
was talking about this, againwith Alethea the last episode,
but in this case, the people inthe videos are actual real
people, and this is just onesnapshot of their lives that
people think defines their wholeexistence. And it's just, we are
not here to inspire you or tomake you feel better about your
(26:50):
own personal situations. We arehere for the same reason you
are, to pay taxes and to die.
Sydney Mayer (27:00):
For utter chaos.
Nicole Zimmerer (27:01):
Utter chaos!
Sydney Mayer (27:01):
None of us asked to be here! And we are not
vehicles for the universe'scatharsis, so we are certainly
not vehicles for the catharsisof our peers.
Nicole Zimmerer (27:10):
Sydney, that was so beautiful. You really
showed your degree with wordsright then.
Sydney Mayer (27:15):
Haha.
Nicole Zimmerer (27:16):
I'm so happy.
Sydney Mayer (27:17):
I do love throwing in the word "catharsis" wherever
I can. I like to use catharsisas a verb. This is separate, but
I like to use catharsis as averb and be like, "Oh I'm sorry,
I gotta go home and, I gottacathart really hard later. I've
had a really long day," like, "Ireally need to cathart when I
get home!"
Nicole Zimmerer (27:31):
Amazing.
Sydney Mayer (27:32):
"I'm actually, I'm sorry I can't come, I'm actually
catharting tonight."
Nicole Zimmerer (27:34):
Haha, okay!
Sydney Mayer (27:37):
Carry on.
Nicole Zimmerer (27:37):
Um, so long story short, Inspirational Porn
is not sexy, we are very turnedoff by it. Everybody should be
turned off by it, don't youagree, Sydney?
Sydney Mayer (27:49):
Absolutely. And that's just one type of trope
that we fall into in media to beaware of. And I think it's one
of those things that's easier tosee once you can name.
Nicole Zimmerer (27:58):
I mean, I know that I sometimes fall into an
Inspo-Porn hole on Facebook.
Sydney Mayer (28:05):
Absolutely. It does make you feel good for five
minutes.
Nicole Zimmerer (28:07):
Yeah, I'm sorry. I said that sentence out
loud, mom. Um, but uh, youjust... A critical eye is really
what's needed for any form ofmedia consumption, really. And I
think, I think if we think aboutit critically, and we think, "Is
this really helping, you know,society and and, you know, the
(28:33):
people that it says it'shelping?" um, or not.
Sydney Mayer (28:37):
That's the thing.
You have to be able to holdthings at once and say like,
some pieces of media are bothdoing really beautiful things,
and you also have to hold on theother hand that some pieces of
what they're doing areirresponsible and reckless with
representation.
Nicole Zimmerer (28:51):
Yeah, yeah. The other tropes that the disabled
community has to deal with a lotspecifically for people on the
spectrum, they have to deal withthe savant trope that is... For
a media environment that hatesdisability representation, the
(29:14):
savant is everywhere.
Sydney Mayer (29:18):
That's the thing.
It's a useful plot device, butit's not a real representation
of people.
Nicole Zimmerer (29:22):
Right, right. I mean, some examples of this
trope are Dustin Hoffman in theRain Man. Sherlock Holmes in,
well--
Sydney Mayer (29:36):
All Sherlock Holmes?
Nicole Zimmerer (29:37):
All Sherlock Holmes, but specifically
Benedict Cumberbatch in SherlockHolmes and Freddie Highmore in
The Good Doctor, and I thinkit's interesting that this trope
is pervasive in today's media.
Also, it's very interesting thatanother term for this trope is
called the idiot savant. And soyou're literally calling
(29:57):
somebody, you know, an idiot,but you're also calling them a
genius at the same time. And Ithink that dichotomy is very
interesting.
Sydney Mayer (30:09):
Sure, you're undercutting them on both sides.
Nicole Zimmerer (30:11):
Yeah, yeah.
It's... the words we use arevery, it's very telling that we
use these words, and we don'tthink about it, but it, it
changes, it changes the waysociety views certain dynamics
within itself.
Sydney Mayer (30:33):
And I think something that's really
interesting about that is,because not only does it reflect
what people's perceptions are,even those potentially flawed
perceptions, but it also informswhat people think going forward
so the more we call it, theidiot savant syndrome, the more
we reinforce some of thosereally problematic tropes, that
both undercut someone'sintelligence and also refer to
(30:54):
them as an idiot. And so I thinkthose are times where not only
is our representation and mediaimportant, but also what we
termed these tropes, becauseit's very revealing that the
trope is damaging when you termit, "the idiot savant."
Nicole Zimmerer (31:08):
Yeah. And then, you know, a person with
well-meaning intentions, and Ioften think of the word
"well-meaning," because most ofthe time when I have a very
weird interaction with anon-disabled person about my
disability, they, they're rude,but they don't know they're
(31:31):
being rude because they're sowell-intentioned, and it's on me
to be like, "I know you'retrying to be nice, but that's
actually like, not cool." Um...
Sydney Mayer (31:41):
That's why you need more creators who actually,
like, are disabled writing theirown stories as well. I mean--
Nicole Zimmerer (31:47):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (31:47):
--that's bviously a whole other
onversation we could get intond talk about for a long time.
ut it's important that you alsoave writers representing their
wn stories and things thathey're informed about. So that
eally helps doing it in aesponsible, productive way.
Nicole Zimmerer (32:00):
Yeah. Because the idiot savant trope is so
Sydney Mayer (32:00):
Absolutely. So I think that is one thing that we
pervasive, when somebody who haswatched these examples of media
meets a person on the spectrum,and they don't conform to that
trope, they are confused whythey're not solving crimes, or
(32:22):
being the world's greatestdoctor, or the world's greatest
have to talk about when we talkabout disabilities is that a lot
mathematician, when they've onlyseen this disability in terms of
great genius. So people say tothemselves, "Oh, he's, or she's
on the spectrum, they'resocially awkward, they must have
(32:44):
a redeeming superpower," and Ithink that's very harmful. But
of them also are our strengthsin many ways, but those don't,
it's not just the autisticcommunity that's affected by
this. Sydney, I, would you mindtalking about how this also
affects the Deaf Community andthe Hard of Hearing Community?
(33:11):
those aren't excuses orjustifications for the rest of
it. And I'm thinking about howthat potentially applies in the
hard of hearing, or DeafCommunity, in that there,
there's a lot of media thatincorporates them being
particularly good at rhythm andsensing beats, and having
another kind of musicalinclination despite being deaf
or hard of hearing. And I thinksometimes that's just, that's a
(33:33):
personal thing at the time,but...
Nicole Zimmerer (33:35):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (33:36):
So I think to ascribe particular qualities, or
superpowers, or difficulties toan entire group is really
reductive. Because the truth ofa lot of disabilities is that
we're dealing with a wholecocktail of different things of
depression, and ADHD, andanxiety. And a lot of things are
manifesting differently in eachindividual person. So when you
have these tropes, I think thatcontributes to a reductive sense
(33:59):
of what certain disabilitiesare, which contributes to a
misdiagnosis in reality andcontributes to just
misunderstood perceptions.
Nicole Zimmerer (34:07):
I will say we are getting very intellectual
this episode and I'm veryexcited about it. I'm super
pumped. Because I'm a nerd.
Sydney Mayer (34:16):
Well, we haven't had a college class together in
two years, Nicole. We have to doit together again now!
Nicole Zimmerer (34:20):
I know! You know what this is?
Sydney Mayer (34:23):
What is it?
Nicole Zimmerer (34:23):
A catharsis!
Sydney Mayer (34:24):
It is catharsis.
Nicole Zimmerer (34:25):
It's a catharsis.
Sydney Mayer (34:26):
Next time we gotta have Stephanie on.
Nicole Zimmerer (34:28):
Yeah. Oh, I would love to have Stephanie on!
She taught me so much. I loveher. But I like, I remember, my
friend met a deaf person. Andshe had never met a deaf person,
which I thought was weird, butshe was like, "Yeah, and he
doesn't have a cochlear implant.
I think that's strange. Like,why wouldn't you want to hear?"
(34:50):
And I was like, "Well, that's achoice for that particular
person." I mean, I mean, I'mthinking about a Reddit post
that I saw like, the Am I TheAsshole? And it was about this
deaf woman, she's the only deafperson in her family, and she's
marrying a deaf man who is partof a deaf family. And so they
(35:15):
are fully integrated into thecommunity. And she, when she
left home, she was fullyintegrated into the community.
And also just as an aside, likethe deaf Community seems really
awesome, because like you... Imean, I asked my friend, um
(35:36):
(different friend), but I askedmy friends, "In the realm of
disability, why do you think theDeaf has like, has a more intact
system," um...
Sydney Mayer (35:52):
Culture.
Nicole Zimmerer (35:53):
"...culture."
Sydney Mayer (35:53):
I think in part it's hereditary is part of it.
Nicole Zimmerer (35:56):
Yes.
Sydney Mayer (35:57):
I know that my grandmother is, was deaf and
hard of hearing, and so herdaughter became a sign language
interpreter, and I obviouslyhave hearing difficulties of my
own.
Nicole Zimmerer (36:05):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (36:05):
So it's really kind of a family affair. And so
it's, I think that's been a hugepart of it as well. And speaking
of my grandmother, shespecifically chose toward the
end not to wear her, her hearingaids. And I think, you know,
that had to do with some otherdifficulties that she was
dealing with it, but then shecould really filter out the
sounds that she was, you know,that were coming into her. So
(36:26):
it's a perfectly normal andregular choice and to assume
that having hearing ispreferable as ableist in itself.
Nicole Zimmerer (36:33):
Yes. Also, I think what really solidifies the
Deaf culture is like, there's alanguage, that's universal,
basically. And language is acornerstone of culture, so, you
know. This woman who's gettingmarried, I don't know why I'm
going on about this story, butshe wanted to have the wedding
(36:59):
in ASL, but to have a hearinginterpreter instead of the other
way around, which I thought wasfucking awesome.
Sydney Mayer (37:07):
That's cool.
Nicole Zimmerer (37:08):
But the question that she said, like,
'Hey, am I the asshole for doingthis?" is because her hearing
family got mad. And I was like,"It's your wedding dude," like
I'm actually talking to her. I'mnot, I do not know this woman at
all. But I just, I just find itinteresting that non-disabled
(37:28):
people have... when a disabledperson's choice doesn't fit with
the non-disabled person's ideaof that disabled person, it
confuses them. And I don't knowwhere I was going with this
point, but I was going somewhereand I lost it. I apologize.
Scott MacDonald (37:50):
No, yeah. I mean, that's good. It also, it
connects to privilege and kindof like, you know, when people
experience a lack of privilegefor the first time, or on rare
occurrences, it feels like tothem...
Nicole Zimmerer (38:04):
An attack.
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (38:05):
Oh, sure.
Nicole Zimmerer (38:06):
Yeah.
Non-disabled people are used tobeing the center of attention,
or the person that societycaters to first. And whenever
they're, they're not the personwho gets catered to first, it
seems like an inconvenience, andlike a personal attack when it's
really not.
Scott MacDonald (38:29):
And I think that's kind of like exactly
what's happening in thisexample. But it's also like, no,
you're not the asshole becauseyou're accommodating... like,
what? They're gonna, they're notgoing to not know what's going
on. There's an interpreter.
Nicole Zimmerer (38:41):
Yeah.
Scott MacDonald (38:42):
So, I don't know. I'd be like, "Yeah, have
your fucking wedding." If shewas like, "And I'm not gonna
have an interpreter, it's justgonna be quiet, and all these
people are just gonna be sittingthere confused," then you're
kind of an asshole. Because thenyou're just, it's not a fun
time. Right? Why did they showup, and put on their suit, and
drive all the way there, and getyou a gift, if you're just gonna
make them sit there and theyhave no idea what's going on?
Sydney Mayer (39:01):
No, it's, at that point it's not offensive, it's
inconvenient and annoying. Butit's not like--
Scott MacDonald (39:05):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (39:05):
It's inconvenient as like a cash bar.
Scott MacDonald (39:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer (39:08):
Yeah.
Scott MacDonald (39:08):
It's like, don't plan a shitty wedding. It
just gets down to that.
Sydney Mayer (39:11):
Yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer (39:11):
Yeah.
Sydney Mayer (39:12):
But it's not like, problematic.
Nicole Zimmerer (39:14):
You know, you know what? Actually, if I was
the woman who was fighting withher parents about, you know,
having a hearing interpreter,I'd be like, "Fine, the hearing
interpreter can go. You can comeif you want, but you're not
gonna be able to understandanything," because I am petty.
But Sydney um, this episode hasbeen all over the place because
(39:37):
you and I are two people withADHD. Can you give us a quick
TLDR for this whole interview,please?
Sydney Mayer (39:46):
Yeah, it's important to be aware of these
tropes, so we can name them,identify them when they happen,
and advocate for more positiverepresentation going forward.
And for those out there who arewriters and storytellers of
their own means, it's justimportant to be really cognizant
and responsible with what you'rewriting, because as media has
(40:07):
such a large and wide impact,you might have an impact beyond
things that you've thoughtabout.
Nicole Zimmerer (40:13):
Perfect.
Perfect. That was a perfectTLDR.
Sydney Mayer (40:17):
Yeah. Anyway!
Nicole Zimmerer (40:19):
To celebrate the fact that this episode has
been recorded like a drunkperson walking home, we are
going to do a brand new segmentcalled, I Love It / I Hate It,
where we talk about something wehave a love/hate relationship
with in the arts or within ourown lives that connects with
(40:40):
disability. And today, we aregoing to be talking about ADHD
with Sydney Mayer.
Sydney Mayer (40:45):
And I would say the way to sum up my
relationship with my ADHD hasbeen pretty much "love it / hate
it" over and on, on and offthroughout the years.
Nicole Zimmerer (40:53):
Right. Sydney, let's start with something you
love.
Sydney Mayer (40:57):
Well, I really love the ability to hyperfocus.
And while that sometimes comeswith drawbacks of its own, it's
been really useful for me,especially getting through such
a rigorous postgraduate program.
Nicole Zimmerer (41:09):
And something you hate.
Sydney Mayer (41:11):
Ooh, executive dysfunction. Sometimes I am just
physically unable to do thethings that I can do, and know I
need to do, like sending anemail sometimes is the hardest
thing for me to do, even thoughit takes less than two minutes
to actually do it, I'm trulyparalyzed and absolutely
cannot... um, yeah.
Nicole Zimmerer (41:33):
It takes me like a whole week and a half to
respond to one email, whichtakes like 30 seconds. It's
amazing. It's amazing.
Sydney Mayer (41:41):
I think that's the thing with ADHD is like all of
those love it / hate it thingsare really intertwined, in that,
you know, hyperfocusing is areal strength for me and I'm
glad that I was able to use itthroughout finals. But on the
opposite hand, people with ADHDalso suffer from time blindness
meaning, exactly what it soundslike, that they don't understand
the passage of time sometimeswhen they're hyperfocusing. So I
(42:03):
will work all day, and then Iwill forget to eat, and drink,
and pee, and I will not actuallyhave done the executive
functions I need to survive. Orthese other moments of
hyperfocus versus paralysis,where I won't be able to work
all day and then suddenly, at3:00 AM, I'll suddenly have the
motivation to do everything onthe planet. And then the next
day, I will not have sleptbefore I have to go to my
(42:25):
work-job that I have notresponded to emails for. And so
it's, it's all cyclical. But intruth, I really do find that
ADHD has been a source ofcreativity and positivity for
me. And honestly, there'ssomething to be said about
connecting with other people whohave ADHD, because I feel like
you function on a similar planeand it's like, magnets
connecting. And I think as muchas ADHD has provided a lot of
(42:49):
struggle in my life,particularly vis-a-vis education
and just general growing up,it's also been a real strength
for my creative prowess, Ithink.
Nicole Zimmerer (42:59):
That is a beautiful note to end on. Thank
you so much, Sydney.
Sydney Mayer (43:03):
Thank you for having me.
Nicole Zimmerer (43:05):
Sydney before you go, um, is there anything
you would like to plug? Anythingyou'd like to put out in the
world?
Sydney Mayer (43:11):
Sure, you can follow my Instagram
@sydney.isabelle, you can readmy Howlround article about
responsible theater makingpractices more in depth, find
that on Google and always happyto connect anywhere you find me.
Nicole Zimmerer (43:29):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
Break a Leg! And thank you toour guest, Sydney, for joining
s todaFollow us on Instagram and
Twitter @breakalegpod, that'sbreak a leg, P-O-D. Let us know
what you thought of the episodeor tell us who you think we
should have on next. For a fulltranscript of each episode, use
the link in the episodedescription. The easiest way to
(43:49):
support this show is by leavingus a review on Apple Podcasts.
And make sure to click thatSubscribe button! Break A Leg!
is produced by Scott MacDonald,and our cover art was created by
Sasha and Alexander Schwartz.
I'm Nicole Zimmerer and I willsee you next time.
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