December 16, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode of Evening With a Legend, Bobby Rahal, renowned for his IndyCar accomplishments, takes center stage. Rahal shares his stories and reflections on his experiences at the 24 Hours of Le Mans during the 1980s. Despite endurance racing not being his primary focus, Rahal's versatility and adaptability shine through as he narrates his journey, starting from sports car racing roots and his partnership with Bob Garretson. Rahal elaborates on his experiences driving the 935 Porsche, his challenges at Le Mans with the March GTP car, and the influences it had on his career. The conversation concludes with insights into Rahal's ongoing passion for motorsport and aspirations to return to Le Mans as a team owner.
===== (Oo---x---oO) =====
00:00 Introduction to Evening With A Legend 01:29 Bobby Rahal's Early Racing Career 02:58 First Experiences at Le Mans 05:47 Racing with Garretson Enterprises 07:32 Challenges and Triumphs at Le Mans 14:29 Driving the Porsche 935 17:54 Switching to the March Group C Car 21:51 Daytona and Sebring Successes 23:49 Comparing Indy Cars and GTP Prototypes 25:30 Challenges and Disappointments at Le Mans 27:34 Reflections on Racing and Missed Opportunities 29:36 Lessons from Le Mans 31:26 Crowd Questions and Personal Stories 37:47 Final Thoughts and Future Aspirations====================
The Motoring Podcast Network : Years of racing, wrenching and Motorsports experience brings together a top notch collection of knowledge, stories and information. #everyonehasastory #gtmbreakfix - motoringpodcast.net
- More Information: Visit Our Website
- Become a VIP at: Patreon
- Online Magazine: Gran Touring
- Follow us on Social: Instagram
To learn more about or to become a member of the ACO USA, look no further than www.lemans.org, Click on English in the upper right corner and then click on the ACO members tab for Club Offers. Once you become a Member you can follow all the action on the Facebook group ACOUSAMembersClub; and become part of the Legend with future Evening With A Legend meet ups.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Evening With a Legend is a seriesof presentations exclusive to
legends of the famous 24 hours ofLe Mans giving us an opportunity
to bring a piece of Le Mans to you.
By sharing stories and highlightsof the big event, you get a chance
to become part of the Legend ofLe Mans with guests from different
eras of over 100 years of racing.
(00:34):
Tonight we have an opportunityto bring a piece of Le Mans to
you sharing in the Legend of LeMans with guests from different
eras of over 100 years of racing.
And as your host, I'm delighted tointroduce Bobby Rahal, best known
for his accomplishments in IndyCar.
He also made notable appearances at the24 hours of Le Mans during the 1980s.
Though endurance racing was not theprimary focus of his career, Bobby
(00:57):
showcased his versatility by competingin the iconic event multiple times,
driving for teams like Porsche and March.
Despite setbacks preventing atop finish, Rahal's participation
highlighted his adaptability andcompetitiveness on the world's stage
and his involvement in Le Mans reflectsthe broader scope of his racing legacy.
Bridging American open wheel successwith international endurance prestige.
(01:20):
With that, I'm your host crewchief Erick from the Motoring
Podcast Network, welcoming everyoneto this evening with a legend.
So Bobby, welcome to the show.
Well, thank you.
Nice to be with you.
Everybody's got a superhero originstory, so let's focus in on the part
of your career that surrounds Le Mans.
What initially drew you tocompete at the 24, and how did
(01:41):
that opportunity come about?
Some people who've known me for a longtime would know that the early parts of
my career were spent in sports car racing.
That's where I started.
Specifically with SCCA, but youknow, my father raced at Sebring
in Watkins Glen from 1969 to 1971.
So we participated in the 12hour and the six hour races.
(02:02):
I grew up around sports,car racing primarily.
I mean, yes, open wheel racing was whatI, I wanted to do, but at the time as
a kid, I was involved with his racing.
I went where he went, so, so, um,in any event, racing in those years.
I got the chance to watch thegreats at Sebring Watkins Glen,
(02:23):
and got to know my well later on.
Got to know, but got to see myfriend Brian Redmond, you know,
raced the nine 17 Porsches.
Of course, Joe Sifford, PeterRodriguez, you know, all the great
drivers that drove for Porsche.
And then of course, you know,the Ferrari drivers Alfa Romeo.
I mean, it was an amazing period of time.
And so that really motivatedme to a large degree.
So really before I got to IndyCar racing,you know, I'd won Daytona 24 hour.
(02:48):
I had raced at Le Mans.
So racing sports cars.
Was really, uh, something thatwas a, frankly a, a goal of mine.
And to race at a place likeLe Mans was a goal of mine.
And I was fortunately, althoughnot successfully, but fortunately,
I was able to participate in yourroad to Le Mans also involves
the partnership and friendshipthat you grew with Bob Garretson.
(03:09):
Yes.
How did that come about and howdid he help get you to Le Mans in
your first attempt with the 9 35?
Yeah, well maybe go backa little bit in, in 78.
I was racing mainly FormulaAtlantic in the United States.
I raced in New Zealand at January of 78.
Came back.
That's when I was introduced to WalterWolf, who owned the Wolf Formula One team,
(03:29):
which Jody Sector drove for and after.
After the race at Long Beach in 78,Walter, he came to me and said, Hey, I
want you to drive our Formula Three car.
That was based at Dallara, theDallara that we know of today.
It was based at his small,small factory in Ano Italy.
And with the idea that I would racecertain Formula Three races in 78 with
(03:51):
the idea of racing Formula One racesat the end of that year, which I did.
I moved to Italy, lived over therefor about six months or so, began
my relationship with this wonderfulman named Dr. Del in GaN Lau.
Great guy.
Wonderful.
Drove his first Formula three car ever.
Of course, later on he woulddesign and build cars that would
really dominate Formula Three.
(04:11):
And frankly, now, I don't know, aseries in the world that doesn't rely
on Dallara to a certain degree forproviding automobiles to go to race with.
But in any event, at the end of 78, I didthe US Grand Prix, Canadian Grand Prix.
You know, the hope was I wasgoing to drive for Wolf in 1979.
They decided not to run asecond car, which meant that I
was on the outside looking in.
(04:33):
Of course, I, I then went to drive Formulatwo in 1979 for the Chevron factory.
Great experience.
Loved racing in Europe.
I mean, I really loved racing.
For me, even from the days I watchedthe movie Grand Prix, which had such
a huge effect on my life to the ideaof racing in Europe was, to me, that
was like, that was, that was the goal.
And, and of course I had heroes likeDan Gurney, who had done that for years
(04:56):
and been very successful, you know,and Phil Hill, you know, many others.
So, seven nine drove Formula two.
Uh, halfway through the year I washired by a fund named Herb Kaplan to
replace George Fulmer and his Canam car.
Did that.
We were pretty successful in thatcar, but really my goal was still
to race in Europe, you know,hopefully get back to Formula One.
That, as I said, didn't transpire,but at the end of 79, I went to
(05:19):
Daytona for the last EMSA race.
And I went there purely to meet people.
'cause I didn't really know, eventhough, you know, I'd come from
kind of a sports car background.
I didn't really know many of thepeople involved in sports car racing.
Uh, in those days it was JohnPaul Sr. It was the Whittingtons.
You had, of course the Garson team,Dick Barber, you know, in the 9 3 5.
(05:39):
Porsche of course was reallythe car to have at the time.
So I went to Daytona purelyto just introduce myself
to everybody, which I did.
To be honest with you, I can't reallyrecall the meeting I had with Bob
Garson, but the next thing you know,I'm in Mountain View, California,
which is where Garson Racing was based.
And uh, we're there and here'sthis really awesome 9 3 5 Porsche
(06:01):
with Apple computer all over it.
And, uh, they hired me.
It was, I think about six races.
In fact, I think we onlydid six with that car.
John Fitzpatrick was the primary driverfor Garson, for Dick Barber racing Garson
Enterprises, and he had the sax 9, 3 5.
He won the championship in, in1980, I believe, with that car.
In fact, the car, that Apple carreally was an amazingly successful car.
(06:26):
It won Sebring as a 9 34.
It won Sebring.
I don't think we ever won Sebringwith that car as a 9 35, but of course
we won at Daytona with it in 81.
And then maybe even more famously,in 19 79, 78, I think it was Paul
Newman finished second in the samecar at Le Mans, currently owned by
um, Adam Corolla, who has it restoredin the colors that Paul Newman drove
(06:49):
in, but an amazingly successful car.
So in any event, I'm trying to think.
The first race we did with thatcar, I believe was Sebring.
We did Riverside, a six hour Riversiderace, did Sears Point, Watkins Glen.
I was on pole at the Watkins Glensix hour race ahead of the works.
Lance is, and you name it.
Everybody in the world was thereat uh, most part we raced it
and I'm not quite sure, I can'tremember the la the other race.
(07:11):
But in any event, I just got thisopportunity through Garson, through
Bob and probably Dick Barber.
I would assume it to some level.
It was a great experienceand I loved driving the car.
And of course then a year afterthat we go to Daytona with Bob and
Brian Redmond and win the 24 hour.
So, you know, had a lot ofsuccess with that single car.
You already had a bunch ofexperience driving in Europe.
(07:32):
Yeah.
But Le Mans was stillone of the crown jewels.
Yeah.
You on your bucket list you wanted to raceat and then you finally get there in 1980.
Yep.
Did it live up to your expectations?
It, it was such, such an amazing.
Event.
You know, Le Mans it like they say,they say the three biggest races are
Le Mans, Indy 500 and Monaco GrandPrix, and I think that's so right.
(07:53):
Because the environment is just sounique and so amazing and so electrifying
that with all due respect to allthe other races around the world.
You go to Le Mans in India, or MonMonaco and I, I've raced at Monaco in
the Formula three series with Dallara.
You know, these are bigger thanlife, these events, and certainly
Le Mans was no different.
(08:13):
I mean, I've watchedthe Steve McQueen movie.
When I was a teenager,17 years old or whatever.
Again, for me, because I wanted torace in Europe, to go to Le Mans was
just a dream come true, and it didn'tlet me down in any respect at all.
I mean, it was an amazing circuit.
Of course, it still at that timehad the original moles on straight,
all three miles or so of it.
It didn't have the original part thatwas like White House corner and, and
(08:36):
things like that, but it was stillpretty much the original Le Mans.
It had the Dunlop curve, which wasa fantastic coming up the front
straightaway and we go underneath theDunlop Bridge fast corner, very high risk
corner, especially when it was raining.
But yeah, you know, I, I really tickedthat, you know, that little box on
your bucket list or whatever to raceat Le Mans, even though we ended up
(08:57):
not finishing the race that year,we had been competitive and, and so
disappointing not to finish, but sosatisfying just to have been there.
So, a lot of other legends that have beenon the show and, and are within your era.
Mm-hmm.
There's like a 20 year span there.
Talk about preparing for Le Mans, howdifficult it was compared to today, where
you have, every simulator has a versionof Le Mans that you could race and try.
(09:19):
How did you prepare for Le Mans?
Did somebody give you notes orpointers or did you just figure
it out on your first out lab?
No, you know, in my day, as yousay, you didn't have simulators.
I don't remember people taking muchin the way of notes about anything.
I mean, it's not like today.
No, it was on the job training.
You would, uh, go out and dopractice regardless of what track
(09:39):
you were coming to, especiallyif it was for the first time.
Your ability to be competitive was basedon your ability to really learn the
circuit quickly and to just have thatability to take it all in as quickly as
possible and then take advantage of it.
And of course, every session you drove,every time you went out, you were just
building up that knowledge of the circuit.
And that even held true during therace, during each stint that you drove.
(10:01):
You know, there was just something elseyou would learn and you get better at it.
So no, there was, there was no racing.
There was no Jim Russell, there was no,uh, again, no, as you say, no simulator.
No.
It was just up to you and the team.
And Yes.
If you had, for example, I mean, Iwas so lucky to have to drive with
Brian Reman on a number of occasions.
Because Brian would kind offill you in, Hey, you gotta
(10:22):
look for this, look for that.
But I would also tell you that mostdrivers, they didn't share that much.
It was, it's up to you kid to learn.
And so you took advantage ofevery second you had on the track.
And again, tried to learn everythingyou could every time you were in
that car and, and that's just kindof the way that was the way it was.
So let's dig into the 1980race just a little bit more.
Mm-hmm.
You touched on some of the highlights.
(10:44):
As a private tier team,Garson Enterprises.
Right.
This wasn't a Porsche backed team.
You guys were on your own.
Right.
You know, small operation.
What was it like strategy wise comparedto what you were used to coming from
IndyCar, coming from other racing?
How did you have to adapt?
Challenges you had to overcome?
Well, remember again, I hadn't been inIndyCar until 82, so when I went in 80,
you know, my experience was mainly FormulaAtlantic, a year of Formula three, year
(11:08):
of Formula Two and two Formula One races.
But Garson Enterprises was justa phenomenal organization, and
yet it was really based on, yes,there were a couple professional
people within that organization.
Jerry Woods was pretty much dedicatedto building the engines, and he was a
great engine builder is a great enginebuilder, and of course Bob Garson,
(11:29):
you know, he had been to Le Mans acouple times prior to my being there.
He was a very studious guy, amateur,but very good driver and really
kinda led the team not just ontrack, but off track and by example.
Bob was a wonderful man who just passedaway about three, four months ago.
But that team was made up for the mostpart of weekend Warriors, and these guys
(11:51):
and ladies were so dedicated to this.
Even today, there's guys like Marty Roff.
He, he was an IBM guy.
In fact, I think he just retired from IBM.
Only a year or two ago he spent, he's,like I told you, he always kidded him.
He was the, the longestremaining employee of IBM.
But these guys was just notMartin or Marty as we call him.
You know his brother Mark andstill is involved with him.
(12:12):
So for many years, and Mark was involveda certain degree, but there was just
a bunch of other people that were.
Involved yet, you know, but veryknowledgeable, very dedicated.
These were amateur, these wereweekend warriors that dedicated
themselves to Garrisson Enterprises.
I mean, they loved the racing.
You know, they traveled all overthe place and I mean, it was a
phenomenal team that I would putup against any pro team anytime.
(12:36):
I mean, that was just the nature.
The quality of the people that wereinvolved, some of whom are no longer
with us, but the quality of thepeople, dedication and the knowledge.
I mean, it just, it was amazing,which is what attributed to their
success as a, as an organization andhow they could beat very professional
teams that came outta Europe.
I mean, Garrett's an enterprises,they were as good as it got,
(12:57):
regardless of who we were up against.
And so, uh.
You know when you went to places likeLe Mans and in fact John Fitzpatrick
that year with the 9 3 5 with that teamwas very successful across the board.
I mean, when I drove there in 1980, itwas raining at the start of the race.
It rained for a lot of the race.
I remember going at night, nowwe get to night and the road,
you know, it was convoluted.
The straightaway, there's dips andthere's, you name it, and so you're
(13:20):
going down there, you're thinking, isthat a puddle or is that just a shadow?
And you're going 200 miles an hour,and if you hit a puddle at 200 miles an
hour and you're not really prepared forit, that might have bad consequences.
I mean, it was a superchallenge in the race.
Fitzpatrick and I were running together.
I think he was maybe a lap ahead ofus at the time, but anyway, right.
It was.
Dry at this point, and I wasright up underneath his rear wing.
(13:43):
The headlights on my carare like bleaching out all
the sign writing on his car.
They're so bright, but in the back ofhis car is literally on fire in the sense
that, you know, the exhaust system'sglowing red, the turbos are glowing red.
There's fire coming outta the turbosand outta the wastegate exhaust, and
it was just the most amazing site.
You're in the middle of the night,so it's black all around this.
(14:03):
Cars all lit up like a Christmas tree.
I wish John had a camera.
I wish I could have taken ashot 'cause it, it would've
just been an awesome picture.
John was a tremendous driver,is a tremendous driver.
But that team really is what empoweredhim to have the success he had.
And I think he wouldagree with me on that.
I had the benefit of the same people, so.
It was a bunch of weekend warriors,but these guys were pretty damn good
(14:26):
at what they did, and they couldgo out and compete against anybody.
So let's talk about the 9 35.
We had Rick Nup on, yeah.
Last year.
Who raced Kremmer nine 30 fives.
Mm-hmm.
Later evolution of the same car youdrove, or similar car that you drove.
Everybody that's talked about9 35 say how unruly they are.
They're just beasts that you got amanhandle for Rick, it sort of suited
his driving style, but for you it wasat its early stages of development.
(14:49):
What did you think of driving the 9 35?
Well, you know, in 1979 I won a a sportscar race with Brian Redman in MidOhio, and
a Canadian driver named Vic Heim, who wasone of the real star of Canadian racing.
He had a 9 3 5, but itwas a single turbo, 9 35.
I drove the car and practiced at MidOhioand I thought, oh my God, I don't know
how you drive something like this.
(15:10):
'cause the throttle legin the car was so bad.
One of those, you put your foot downand you count to like five, and then
all of a sudden the power comes in.
I elected not to drivethat car That weekend.
Drove with Brian.
We won the race two liter sportscar, but by 1980 now, they'd
all gone to twin turbos and thatchanged that card dramatically
because it now it had response.
(15:31):
The 9 3 5 did several things very well.
One.
It went like a bat outta hell.
You know, it had a lot of power.
Two, the brakes were pretty good on it.
All of that was mitigated by the factthat it was a basically a nine 11 chassis.
I mean, we had a adjustable frontroll bar on the car, and I swore that
I could move the roll bar wherever Iwanted to, and there'd be no difference.
There was probably thatmuch flex in the chassis.
(15:52):
I mean, remember it had analuminum tube roll cage, which
you look back now and you think.
Good thing.
I never had an accident in that car.
'cause I can't imagine a aluminumtube roll cage would do much.
But the car was a flexi flyer.
I mean, it is one of those deals thatwhen you really drove the car, I mean you
could drive it with some oversteer in it.
Some of that was induced by power, butsome of it was by tuning the car a bit.
(16:14):
Was it the best handlingcar I've ever driven?
No, but you know, at the time itwas the most competitive car and so
you wanted to be in a 9 3 5 Porsche.
Great story was in, I think it was 1980.
In fact, we're at El Car Lakeand I'm in the car and John
Fitzpatrick's in the um, Sox car.
We're practicing and he's like, threeseconds, four seconds faster than me.
(16:35):
And I'm just like, there's no way.
'cause I'm driving the wheelsoff it and there's no way he's
four seconds quicker than me.
And I, you know, I was told,oh, you can only go to 1.2 bar
barometric pressure on the boost.
Well, as you know, Elkhart Lake hasthree very long straightaways amongst
other things, and I think it wasbefore qualifying or, or right after.
But one of the mechanics came up to meand said, you know, John's using 1.4 bar.
(16:58):
Oh really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's using 1.4.
Hmm.
Okay.
That's good to know.
Thank you for that.
So I went out and, uh, in qualifyingand of course you could raise
the, there's a, I wanna say alittle wheelhouse or whatever.
You'd adjust the boost bydown by the gear shift.
So what the heck?
I'm gonna see what this does.
And I didn't beat John, but I gotwithin a 10th or something of 'em.
'cause now when you go 1.4 bar, nowyou're going a lot faster down the strai
(17:22):
at one than you are at 1.2 and you'recoming off the corners a lot harder.
At 1.4 engine power was.
Almost everything in that thing.
So it was the best carto drive at the time.
Uh, was it the best car period?
No, but it was a great car and uh,we had lots of success in the car
and if you treated it right, carefulwith the gearbox as we did at Daytona
in 81, didn't get greedy with it.
(17:44):
I mean, you could have great races in it,as we did at Daytona 81, and it was really
a, at the time, just the car to have.
So let's switch gears and talk aboutyour second attempt at Le Mans 1982.
Let's not.
Porsche at this point had reallystopped producing the 9 35.
Right.
Although they were continued in privatetier entries for a couple more years.
(18:05):
Right.
They were focusing theirattention on the 9 56 and then
subsequently the 9 62 after that.
Yeah.
However, there was a big shift, especiallyat Garson Enterprises to move to a
March group C car instead of stickingwith Porsche and maybe doing a 9 56.
Why was that decision made?
Do you have any inside baseball on that?
(18:26):
Well first, and you might rememberthis, that in 81 I drove with
Jim Perro Moretti in the Yost.
It was a Moby Dick car.
Basically.
It wasn't a factory car, but Yosthad built his own version of the
Moby Dick right hand drive, which,you know, all the nine three fives
were left hand drive 'cause they'rebased on a stock nine 11 chassis.
But this one was right hand drive.
Of course, on road courses, mostof those road courses go clockwise.
(18:49):
So you wanna be on the, you know,on the inside of the corners.
It was a left hand shift thattook a little getting used to.
But in terms of pure, probably speed,that was a very, very quick 9, 3, 5.
We didn't have a lot of success with it.
I think we finished second in mid Ohiowith it and, and what have you, but it
was an amazing car, so that was a thrill.
But, so in 1981, it was clear that the 9 35 was pretty much at the end of its line.
(19:12):
Lola had come out with a T600 that Brian drove to a
championship win in in IMSA in 81.
And that was powered by a six literChevy, a normally aspirated stock block.
Very strong car.
Especially compared to thenine three fives or anything
else that was out at the time.
So Garson, Dick Barber, I thinkeverybody was of the view.
Why don't we combine the bestof English designers, IE Lola.
(19:36):
And with the best of what Germany couldprovide, which was 9 3 5 engines and
gearboxes, they decided we would goto Le Mans with a Lola T 600 powered
by a 9 3 5 engine 9 3 5 gearbox.
You know, sadly, or whatever.
It's like anything that just wasn't givenenough time, perhaps not enough resource.
But I remember flying,gonna go to Le Mans.
(19:56):
I was on my way to Europe toprepare for Le Mans, and they
said, come to Sears Point.
And they called it in thosedays, and now it's Sonoma.
Mm-hmm.
And they said, come to Sears because we,we wanna do a test with the car before
we put it on the airplane to go to Paris.
So, okay, so I fly to SanFrancisco, drive up to Sears Point,
get there and nobody's there.
I'm there, but nobody else isthere and I'm waiting, waiting.
(20:19):
No transporter, no car, no nothing.
Finally at like, I think it was two orthree in the afternoon, I'd been there
probably six, seven hours at the time.
I called 'em up and Isaid, Hey, what's going on?
Are we, does this test happen?
He said, no.
No, we're not gonna beable to do the test.
So I drove to the San Franciscoairport and flew over to to Europe.
Well, you don't go to the Le Mans 24hour with a car that's never turned
(20:40):
a wheel prior to getting there.
And that was the case with this car.
If you looked at it, you say, oh,this thing, nobody stands a chance.
But it had not turned a wheel, andit's, of course, now Brian Redmond
and I are gonna drive the car.
We get to Le Mans, everything'sby all rights, looks like it
should, you know, just dominate.
Over the couple days, we couldn'tbuild up any boost pressure in the car.
(21:01):
The intercos leaked andGod knows what all else.
And again, it never turned a wheel.
Frankly, we couldn't qualifythe car because it wasn't fast,
'cause it just didn't generate thepower and it wasn't fast enough.
I think probably in the end that probablywas a good thing because if it had been
running like a 9, 3, 5 engine car shouldrun, it might have killed one of us.
'cause frankly, you know, we'dhave gone very, very fast.
(21:23):
But very disappointingfor everybody, I think.
And, and the team had bustedtheir butts working late nights.
Again, remember this is semipro team.
People working on the car also have jobsduring the day, not just working on that.
And these people wereworking all night long and.
It was an experience that everybodylooks back now and truly understands
why it wasn't able to perform.
(21:43):
You know, very sad.
Could have been so good yet itwas kind of so bad and in the end
we didn't qualify and went homewith our tails between our legs.
So that was 81.
That was 81 and 82.
82. Again, it's clear that theGTP category is the category.
It was in SA, I mean, we, we had a March82, March, GTP cars to drive at Daytona.
(22:03):
I said pole position,lap record with the car.
Amazingly, we had a greatengine, a guy named Franz Weiss.
Franz was Jim Hall's enginebuilder at Chaparral.
He built my engines in IndyCar,Mario Andretti's engines in IndyCar.
I mean Franz Weiss and hiscompany was, and especially stock
blocks Can-Am stuff like that.
If not the best, I'm notsure who had been better.
(22:24):
Just produced great product.
So we're at Daytona again, six literChevy V eight, normally aspirated.
And I, I was on pole.
I mean, I remember driving past, Ithink it was Fitzpatrick on the banking.
You know, you think the nine30 five's fast in a stray line.
But this march with this engine, andof course it was a much smaller frontal
area compared to a 9 35, of course,it had instant response with the stock
(22:47):
block Chevy, again, set it on pole andamazingly we were like running, I think
third overall or so with maybe an hourand a half, two hours at most to go.
And finally the gearbox gave up the ghost.
But the fact that it was that strong inthe right, in the 24 hour and was fairly
reliable, that caused us to all thinka lot about what do you do at Le Mans?
(23:07):
You know, we went to Sebringa month and a half later.
So again, I set pole position, lap record.
That still exists todayon the 5.2 mile circuit.
The gearbox was kind of theAchilles heel to the car, but
we lost two of the four gears.
I think we only had second and fourth.
Even with that, and of course atestament to Franz Weiss's engines.
'cause I go down the back straightat Sebring and it's like pegged
at 8,000 RPMs or whatever.
(23:28):
I mean, it, it is just, there was no fifthgear to go to and 'cause it was gone.
And yet, I mean the thing ran and ran.
We finished second to John Paul's 9 35 by, I think it was 18 seconds maybe,
or eight seconds, something like that.
You know, and sea ring was just so toughin those days, physically on the car.
So.
In any event, his car showed that it couldbe competitive with anything out there,
so we went to Le Mans with it that year.
(23:49):
At this point, you're alsorunning Indy cars, right?
So when you compare a group C prototypewith Downforce and everything else, that's
different than the Indy car, what werethey like when you compare and control?
Were they similar to drive or werethey horses of a different car?
Well, the Indy cars were faster, even 82.
I mean, they had a lot of power,a lot of downforce lighter.
Those cars still had a fairamount of throttle lag.
(24:09):
The Indy cars did single turbo.
You know, and of course, you know, ona road course, they were considerably
faster than anything out there.
The Indy car was just a fasterrace car than IMSA or GTP.
But GTP cars were stillgreat cars to drive.
You know, as I tell people, I think thething that always impressed me when I
first started driving Indy cars in 82 wasthat the car never stopped accelerating
(24:30):
no matter how long the straightaway was.
Whereas in a sports car, a 9,3 5 or a March or whatever.
You know, you go to Moison at Lemo,for example, and it basically stopped
about halfway down the street, youknow, accelerating, just kind of sat
there, but, you know, different cars.
It's just the reality.
But yeah, the, the March again,you're talking about a car
built by March Engineering.
(24:51):
Much more sophisticated than thenine three fives, the chassis design,
the componentry, you know, the 93 5, in many respects was still a,
a well-developed nine 11, whereasa march was a pure racing car.
And so consequently the performanceof the two were different.
But in the end, especially in enduranceracing, the the nine, the Porsches, the
nine three fives had, you know, yearsof experience, they had reliability.
(25:15):
The engines were super reliable.
Gearbox was, as long as you were good tothem, super reliable brakes were good.
But that's what made the difference.
Whereas the march was really acar that was meant to go at most
six hours and to ask it to domore was probably asking too much.
For those that don't know how1982 ended, is that how it ends
for the March story at Le Mans?
Well, you know, we splita fuel tank at Le Mans.
(25:37):
Disappointing.
Yeah, we got there.
We had run outta money.
We no longer had Franz license engines.
And of course the mul on Straits Aalong straightaway, if you don't have
any power, you know, we went thereand we just didn't have any grunt.
The engine manufacturer wehad who will go unnamed, the
engines just weren't good enough.
You know, arrow wise, maybe the marchcarried a little too much drag in
(25:57):
it compared to the Porsches, whichyou didn't really necessarily see
a place like Daytona or Sebring,but you'd see it at Le Mans.
In any event, you know, wequalified, but not that well.
And of course, in the race, the fueltank split after about three hours and.
That was, that we were done.
We, we did run the car, uh,numerous SA races following Le Mans.
You know, one of the things we foundafter Le Mans, which was that Seabring
(26:20):
had basically destroyed the chassis.
You know, the rivets had in the cockhad been loosened up or fell out,
or, I mean, the car was not preparedwell, again, financially, it wasn't
garson, it was the sponsor of the team.
Ran outta money, and so the maintenanceof the car suffered as a result.
And of course the differentengine builder, all these things
contributed to not really having acompetitive proposition at Le Mans 82.
(26:43):
Of course, then again, the fueltank splits and very disappointing.
I'm not sure we would'vebeen as competitive as say
we were at Daytona Sebring.
We should have been morecompetitive than we were in.
In any event, we went back to thestates, ran a few more races again,
with not very good engines, again,suffered the consequence of that.
So the glory races for that car forus at least, was Daytona and Sebring.
(27:06):
Now the next year with creepy crawley,they're the ones that put a 9 3 5
gearbox boxing engine in a march anddominated Daytona and won a lot of races.
And then of course, later on in 84,now I'm driving Bruce Levins 9 6
2 Porsche, one of the first ones.
We're racing against Randall Lanierin the Whittingtons in a march
Chevy, and that car had been fullydeveloped and that was the car to have.
(27:27):
So the, the March chassiswas the right chassis.
It's just we didn't have theresource to really run it properly
and we suffered as a result.
Did your Le Mans's journey stop in82 because of your rise in IndyCar,
or were there other attempts togo back to Le Mans over the years?
Oh, well, for the most part,yes, because of IndyCar.
The Portland IndyCar race used toalways be on the same weekend or
(27:50):
thereabouts as Le Mans in June.
One of my great what ifs with my greatfriend, Jochen Moss, who he and I won
Sibr together in 87 with the 9 6 2,is that he asked me to drive with him
and in the Saber, the Mercedes and Ithink it was 1989, you know, 'cause
we had obviously won Sebring together.
We became friends, you know, goodco-drivers together, good relationship.
(28:13):
I had to say no.
And of course that's the year he wonLe Mans, or one of the years he won Le
Mans with the Mercedes powered sober.
As you can imagine what ifs, right?
The thing that kind of disappointsme in myself is that when I started
to focus more just on IndyCarracing, I think probably around
19 90, 91, that was a mistake.
Having had the success, I'd hadan IndyCar, I'D won the 500.
(28:35):
By that time, I'd wona couple championships.
I had won Sebring in 87, anumber of other SA races in 87.
And I don't know why, but I thought,uh, I just, I'm, I don't wanna
travel that much or something.
And I decided not to, to getout of sports car racing.
And I really think I lost opportunitiesthat could have perhaps enabled me to
win Le Mans because I really think thatwould've been great to say, you know,
(28:58):
you want indie, you, you want Le Mans.
Never won Formula One World Championship.
But, you know, those are twopretty good championships to win.
In any event, I, I look back and Ithink, you know, I shouldn't have
done that because as I say, I thinkI had, I would've had opportunities,
but it is what it is, you know?
Now for me it's really about, youknow, I want RLL Raul Letterman
Lanigan racing to go to Le Mans.
(29:18):
Well, I may not be ableto win it as a driver.
I can win it as a team owner,and that's certainly something
that I've been disappointed overthe last several years with BMW.
We weren't asked to do that.
But you know, maybe one ofthese days we can go there as
a team and, and win the race.
That won't maybe be quite thesame as winning as a driver,
but it'll be pretty nice.
Since we're talking about lessonslearned, one of the things that a lot
(29:40):
of the pro drivers that we have onthe show talk about is how Le Mans's.
Profoundly changed them as adriver and the things that they
took away, the memories obviously,that they created that enthusiasm.
They reached their bucket list.
Yeah, there's a whole new experience.
How did Le Mans change you?
What did you learn from it?
Lessons, memories that youtook back with you to IndyCar
maybe made you a better driver?
(30:01):
Well, I think that.
Yeah, Le Mans, especially in the,with the 9, 3, 5, you know, remember
it didn't have a rev limiter.
I mean, it was a synchronous transmission.
It wasn't straight cut gears.
It wasn't like today wherethe gearings electronically or
hydraulically motivated, or, I mean,it was a conventional gear box.
It was conventional brakes,and Brian Redmond was really a
(30:21):
great teacher for me about this.
Is that, you know, this is how you haveto drive the car in order to get it
to the end of the race, whether it'sDaytona, Sebring, Le Mans, whatever.
And it really did teach me how toget the maximum out of the car.
Having minimum, I don't wannasay consequence, but you know,
get the most feet outta the carat the least price to the car.
(30:42):
In other words, taking it easyon the brakes, careful on the
gearbox, making sure when you makethe shift that you're in gear.
I mean, all these thingsbecause you didn't have the
protections that you have today.
You know, I remember Redmond tellingme that one year he and CFR were.
Pretty much ready to win Le Mansmaybe in two hours to go and sit.
Missed a gear shift on the front,straight over rev the engine
(31:03):
in the nine 17 and it blew up.
And that was that.
You know, that was thesame with the 9 3 5.
I mean, you had to be sure of everythingyou did and you had to be careful
everything you did and you had todrive it carefully as you could go
and yet as quick bay as you could go.
And that later on with Indy cars andeverything else, I drove 9 6 2, whatever
that later on was, gave me greatexperience, great lessons to learn from.
(31:23):
It gave me the successthat I had in later years.
Alright, Bobby, so before wetransition into our last segment here,
wrapping up this episode, there'sa couple crowd questions for you.
Sure.
So first off, Ron Meyerwrites, can you please ask him
about the Otter Pops sponsor?
Well that was IndyCar.
Yeah.
Paul Pope owned a company called OtterPops, that's frozen popsicles, right.
(31:47):
He regrettably passed away a fewyears ago, but just a great guy.
Had a great time with him andhe got hooked up with Maury
Cranes who owned Kraco, who wasthe owner of the Kraco team.
I went to drive for Kraco in 89.
Otter Pops was one ofthe associate sponsors.
Yeah, we were very popular in thepaddock area 'cause we had all
the Otter pop bars for everybody.
But yeah, I guess one of the bestthings about racing over the years for
(32:10):
me is uh, and I tell people this, isthat you meet really fabulous people.
Some aren't so fabulous,but frankly, most are.
And Paul was certainly one of those.
Maury Cranes was certainly one ofthose, and I was fortunate to count
them as friends and fortunate todrive for them, and fortunate to
have a lot of experiences with 'em.
Bob Varsha, oh boy.
The Bob Varsha wants to know, whatadvice would you give your son Graham
(32:32):
about continuing his driving careerwhen everything else is going so well?
And do you see yourself runninga Le Mans's Classic with him?
So first off, in 2005, Graham wasrunning, what do they call it?
Uh, Mazda Super Mazdaor something like that.
He finished second in Montrealfor the Montreal Race Grand Prix.
And we got on a plane.
(32:52):
I said, we're gonna go to Le Mans.
I really was pushing him to say,one of these days, you've gotta
go run Le Mans, you gotta do it.
So I took him over there now in 2005.
So in oh five he was 16 years old.
So we flew over and we didn't stay forthe race, but we flew around and we
walked around the track basically, youknow, we're hacking through the bush.
I said, I want you to go down, we're gonnago down to this place called Re, which is
(33:14):
halfway down the Mulsanne Strait, right.
And there's a bar on one side restaurantand, and I said, I want you to go
down, we're gonna go down there.
And we got through the bush.
Watched the cars go byat 200 miles an hour.
Then we went back to the paddock,went up in the Ferris wheel.
Very kind of emotional kind of thing,you know, that all of these sensations
that I had experienced over my yearsthat I wanted him to get a feel for and
(33:35):
appreciation of, and got up in the Ferriswheel there right by the last chicane and.
At night practice.
And you know, as I've alwaystold him, and I still tell him,
I said he's still a young guy.
He is 36 years old, so he's got plentyof time if he wants to go there.
But there race and Le Mans.
What a great experience it was for me.
I hope he does it one day.
'cause I think he'll feel the same wayas far as the, uh, Le Mans Classic.
(33:56):
I've done that twice.
Brian Redmond, I, I had anine 17 Porsche in 2002.
The first Le Mans Classic.
He and I drove that car there.
I thought, who better than to getBrian Redmond to co drive with you
at, you know, in a nine 17 Porsche.
We had mechanical issues, so we didn'tfinish, but still a great experience.
And later then I went and racedin a three liter Lola prototype.
(34:16):
Three or four years later, I'm, I'm doneracing, you know, my day's over and I
don't think Graham's ready to, I thinkhe always thought I was crazy doing
these races with these old race cars.
'cause there's certainly nosafer today than they were in
the day, which wasn't very safe.
Right.
So.
I doubt I can get him into one, butyeah, that, that's a great event.
You know, Le Mans's a great event.
Le Mans classic's a great event,especially if you love the old historic
(34:38):
cars and, and you see many of them.
And, and I was very fortunate.
I drove a Fellow's two 50 LM Ferrarione time there at the Le Mans Classic.
The Lola T 2 86 was a threeliter DFE Cosworth powered car.
Of course the nine 17 and others.
So, I mean, Le Mans is Le Mans,it doesn't matter what's driving
on the track, it's a hell of anevent and a hell of an experience.
So since you brought up classic, thatwould've been the new track format because
(35:01):
yes, it started way after the redesign.
When you compare driving Le Mansnnow, let's say in a classic event
compared to then, what do you thinkof the evolution of the track?
Well, you know, I'm atraditionalist in a lot of ways.
I can understand maybe one of thechicanes, um, za, I'm not sure about
two, but I can understand that.
I mean, I was fortunate and I feelfortunate to say to people today, oh
(35:23):
yeah, no, I drove the real moan, rait.
There is no question that the riskfactor was high, no question about it.
Maybe I feel less concerned aboutit because nothing ever happened
to me on that part of the track,but for sure a lot of risk.
I'm glad we, I experienced that, so Iunderstand why they made the chicanes that
Le Mans, but frankly, I think they causedmore incidents than they had before.
(35:46):
The most disappointing change forme at Le Mans today compared to when
I drove is the Dunlop Curve comingup, the front strait, going up the
hill underneath the Dunlop Bridge.
It was a, a fast bend that thenled down to that left hand corner.
I can't remember the name of it.
I'm not, I'm gonna say TetRouge, but I don't think it is.
And that was an amazing corner, youknow, fast and yet, you know, really
(36:08):
attest, you know, not horribly risky,I would say, but still, just some
really great corner and a great sighton the track arcing over the the hill.
And turning right slightly.
And that's gone.
And what they've got now is, you know,I'm not a big fan of it, but the rest
of the track is really not a wholelot different than when I drove it.
In fact, when I drove my nine 17there, you know when you went and
came through Mulsanne Corner and wenttowards Indianapolis, that's pretty
(36:31):
much the same as it was 1970 or 71.
And, and so when I told people, Isaid, when I went through there,
you're going there 200 miles an hour.
And I went through, you know, there'stwo kinks, right between Mulsanne and,
and Indianapolis and the second onehas a little bit more elevation to it.
And you go through there, you don't justsquint too much to think it was 1970,
it was really right out of the movieLe Mans there, you know, the rest of
(36:53):
the track is not a whole lot different,but as I said, I kind of get Mulsanne.
But I really disappointed aboutthe changes they made at, at.
So, Bobby, earlier you talked about whatifs, a lot of thinking about what ifs.
So what if we could transportBobby Raha 1980 to 2025?
What car would you jump in to runthe 24 hours of Le Mans this year?
I think you'd have to sayit's gotta be a Porsche.
(37:16):
You know, the odds are prettygood if you're in a Porsche.
My dad raced at Porsche Carrero six.
We had an Elva Porsche, of course Idrove the nine three fives, drove 9 6
2, which I did five races in 87 in Imon.
I won three of 'em with the 9 6 2, andthen I won two other races with 9 6 2.
So I mean, it was an amazing car.
And I have the feeling thatdriving the current Porsche is
not a whole lot different, whichis why they win a lot of races.
(37:38):
'cause if there's a companythat understands endurance
racing, it's Porsche.
If I'm gonna go back and if there's a car,for sure, a manufacturer would be Porsche.
So looking back, how do you think yourparticipation in Le Mans contributes to
the broader story of your racing legacy?
Well, I think there's just the fact thatI did it again, I wasn't successful doing
it, but you know, I, I was willing to tryjust about anything to further my career.
(38:02):
And for me, clearly because of my father'sexperience racing at Seabring and Watkins
Glen, my being there from a gopher to aweekend warrior mechanic, teenager, to
seeing the racing, I mean, sports carracing was always very important to me.
Still is last 17 years or 18years, for me, some of the best
has been associated with BMW.
In their sports car racing program.
(38:23):
We've won Daytona twice, won sea ringa couple times, a lot of other races.
I mean, I just love sports, car racing,you know, it's like anything, I don't
think I made Le Mans in any way.
I think it made me in in certain ways.
You know, it's disappointing not to goback to be able to drive there or be
a team owner there, at least for themoment, but clearly one of these days.
And just being able to tell people myexperience going down the mos on straight.
(38:46):
Or my experience of going throughIndianapolis or any, or the Dunlop Curve.
I mean that to me that I have anexperience that few people have,
and that's something that I treasureand it's something I think has value
for people when they're interestedin talking about great events like
the Lamo 24 Hour, what's next?
You kind of hinted at a couple things.
What's going on?
Well, I mean, I'm hopeful.
(39:07):
Next is us as a team runningat Lamo one of these days.
That's the big goal.
Mean, obviously we stillwant to go win Indy again.
We've won that three times as ateam and for me once as an owner,
so four victories at at Indy.
Wanna do more of that?
I mean, anything we enter, we want to win.
But I would love to be able to go backto Le Mans as a team and competitively
race against the other teams and.
(39:29):
You know, potentially win that race.
Maybe I'd hang it up after that.
I'm not sure.
'cause F FDA won India,Daytona and Le Mans.
Kinda like, well what else is there?
Right.
On that note, it's time for me topass the torch to our A-C-O-U-S-A
President for some final thoughts.
Bobby?
Thank you so much.
It's been an honor and apleasure on behalf of the a
CO, the A-C-O-U-S-A community.
(39:51):
Thank you.
You're so gracious with your time.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Well, it's great seeing you andyou know, this is an important
event for all of us, right?
And, uh, I love talking about it.
Wish I could talk more about it.
Wish I had more experience,but I love talking about it.
And uh, as I say, one daymaybe we'll be back there.
We look forward to that.
Thank you, and that's the finish linefor this evening with a legend where
we took a closer look at the enduranceracing chapter of Bobby Ray Hall's storied
(40:15):
career known to most as an indie carlegend and team owner Bobby's Ventures
into the 24 hours reveal, a drivereager to push boundaries and compete on
the world's biggest motorsport stage.
Bobby's experiences behind the wheeland lessons learned in the grueling
environment of Le Mans adds yet anotherlayer to his already remarkable legacy.
So to keep up with Bobby's ongoing workin Motorsport, check out ray hall.com or
(40:38):
follow Ray Hall Letterman Lannigan Racingon your favorite social media platforms.
And we hope you enjoyed this presentationand look forward to more evening
with a legend throughout the season.
And on behalf of everyone here andthose listening at home, thank you
Bobby, for sharing your stories with us.
My pleasure and thank you so muchfor giving me the time to chat
with everybody and with yourselvesand, and it's been a real pleasure.
(40:59):
And on a personal note, it has been anabsolute honor to interview you tonight.
So thank you.
Watching you growing up ontv, all those kinds of things.
Absolutely amazing.
Thank you.
Take care.
(41:20):
This episode has been brought to youby the Automobile Club of the West and
the A-C-O-U-S-A from the awe-inspiringspeed demons that have graced the
track to the courageous drivers whohave pushed the limits of endurance.
The 24 hours of Le Mans is anautomotive spectacle like no other.
For over a century the 24 hoursLe Mans has urged manufacturers to
innovate for the benefit of futuremotorists, and it's a celebration of
(41:42):
the relentless pursuit of speed andexcellence in the world of motorsports.
To learn more about or to become a memberof the ACO USA, look no further than
www.Le Mansn.org, click on English inthe upper right corner and then click
on the a CO members tab for club offers.
Once you've become a member, you canfollow all the action on the Facebook
(42:03):
group, A-C-O-U-S-A Members Club, andbecome part of the Legend with Future
Evening with the legend meetups.
This episode has been brought to youby Grand Touring Motorsports as part
of our Motoring Podcast network.
(42:24):
For more episodes like this, tune in eachweek for more exciting and educational
content from organizations like TheExotic Car Marketplace, the Motoring
Historian, break Fix, and many others.
If you'd like to support GrandTouring Motorsport and the Motoring
Podcast Network, sign up for oneof our many sponsorship tiers at
www.patreon.com/gt Motorsports.
(42:45):
Please note that the content,opinions and materials presented and
expressed in this episode are thoseof its creator, and this episode has
been published with their consent.
If you have any inquiries about thisprogram, please contact the creators
of this episode via email or socialmedia as mentioned in the episode.
Evening With a Legend is a seriesof presentations exclusive to
legends of the famous 24 hours ofLe Mans giving us an opportunity
to bring a piece of Le Mans to you.
By sharing stories and highlightsof the big event, you get a chance
to become part of the Legend ofLe Mans with guests from different
eras of over 100 years of racing.
(00:34):
Tonight we have an opportunityto bring a piece of Le Mans to
you sharing in the Legend of LeMans with guests from different
eras of over 100 years of racing.
And as your host, I'm delighted tointroduce Bobby Rahal, best known
for his accomplishments in IndyCar.
He also made notable appearances at the24 hours of Le Mans during the 1980s.
Though endurance racing was not theprimary focus of his career, Bobby
(00:57):
showcased his versatility by competingin the iconic event multiple times,
driving for teams like Porsche and March.
Despite setbacks preventing atop finish, Rahal's participation
highlighted his adaptability andcompetitiveness on the world's stage
and his involvement in Le Mans reflectsthe broader scope of his racing legacy.
Bridging American open wheel successwith international endurance prestige.
(01:20):
With that, I'm your host crewchief Erick from the Motoring
Podcast Network, welcoming everyoneto this evening with a legend.
So Bobby, welcome to the show.
Well, thank you.
Nice to be with you.
Everybody's got a superhero originstory, so let's focus in on the part
of your career that surrounds Le Mans.
What initially drew you tocompete at the 24, and how did
(01:41):
that opportunity come about?
Some people who've known me for a longtime would know that the early parts of
my career were spent in sports car racing.
That's where I started.
Specifically with SCCA, but youknow, my father raced at Sebring
in Watkins Glen from 1969 to 1971.
So we participated in the 12hour and the six hour races.
(02:02):
I grew up around sports,car racing primarily.
I mean, yes, open wheel racing was whatI, I wanted to do, but at the time as
a kid, I was involved with his racing.
I went where he went, so, so, um,in any event, racing in those years.
I got the chance to watch thegreats at Sebring Watkins Glen,
(02:23):
and got to know my well later on.
Got to know, but got to see myfriend Brian Redmond, you know,
raced the nine 17 Porsches.
Of course, Joe Sifford, PeterRodriguez, you know, all the great
drivers that drove for Porsche.
And then of course, you know,the Ferrari drivers Alfa Romeo.
I mean, it was an amazing period of time.
And so that really motivatedme to a large degree.
So really before I got to IndyCar racing,you know, I'd won Daytona 24 hour.
(02:48):
I had raced at Le Mans.
So racing sports cars.
Was really, uh, something thatwas a, frankly a, a goal of mine.
And to race at a place likeLe Mans was a goal of mine.
And I was fortunately, althoughnot successfully, but fortunately,
I was able to participate in yourroad to Le Mans also involves
the partnership and friendshipthat you grew with Bob Garretson.
(03:09):
Yes.
How did that come about and howdid he help get you to Le Mans in
your first attempt with the 9 35?
Yeah, well maybe go backa little bit in, in 78.
I was racing mainly FormulaAtlantic in the United States.
I raced in New Zealand at January of 78.
Came back.
That's when I was introduced to WalterWolf, who owned the Wolf Formula One team,
(03:29):
which Jody Sector drove for and after.
After the race at Long Beach in 78,Walter, he came to me and said, Hey, I
want you to drive our Formula Three car.
That was based at Dallara, theDallara that we know of today.
It was based at his small,small factory in Ano Italy.
And with the idea that I would racecertain Formula Three races in 78 with
(03:51):
the idea of racing Formula One racesat the end of that year, which I did.
I moved to Italy, lived over therefor about six months or so, began
my relationship with this wonderfulman named Dr. Del in GaN Lau.
Great guy.
Wonderful.
Drove his first Formula three car ever.
Of course, later on he woulddesign and build cars that would
really dominate Formula Three.
(04:11):
And frankly, now, I don't know, aseries in the world that doesn't rely
on Dallara to a certain degree forproviding automobiles to go to race with.
But in any event, at the end of 78, I didthe US Grand Prix, Canadian Grand Prix.
You know, the hope was I wasgoing to drive for Wolf in 1979.
They decided not to run asecond car, which meant that I
was on the outside looking in.
(04:33):
Of course, I, I then went to drive Formulatwo in 1979 for the Chevron factory.
Great experience.
Loved racing in Europe.
I mean, I really loved racing.
For me, even from the days I watchedthe movie Grand Prix, which had such
a huge effect on my life to the ideaof racing in Europe was, to me, that
was like, that was, that was the goal.
And, and of course I had heroes likeDan Gurney, who had done that for years
(04:56):
and been very successful, you know,and Phil Hill, you know, many others.
So, seven nine drove Formula two.
Uh, halfway through the year I washired by a fund named Herb Kaplan to
replace George Fulmer and his Canam car.
Did that.
We were pretty successful in thatcar, but really my goal was still
to race in Europe, you know,hopefully get back to Formula One.
That, as I said, didn't transpire,but at the end of 79, I went to
(05:19):
Daytona for the last EMSA race.
And I went there purely to meet people.
'cause I didn't really know, eventhough, you know, I'd come from
kind of a sports car background.
I didn't really know many of thepeople involved in sports car racing.
Uh, in those days it was JohnPaul Sr. It was the Whittingtons.
You had, of course the Garson team,Dick Barber, you know, in the 9 3 5.
(05:39):
Porsche of course was reallythe car to have at the time.
So I went to Daytona purelyto just introduce myself
to everybody, which I did.
To be honest with you, I can't reallyrecall the meeting I had with Bob
Garson, but the next thing you know,I'm in Mountain View, California,
which is where Garson Racing was based.
And uh, we're there and here'sthis really awesome 9 3 5 Porsche
(06:01):
with Apple computer all over it.
And, uh, they hired me.
It was, I think about six races.
In fact, I think we onlydid six with that car.
John Fitzpatrick was the primary driverfor Garson, for Dick Barber racing Garson
Enterprises, and he had the sax 9, 3 5.
He won the championship in, in1980, I believe, with that car.
In fact, the car, that Apple carreally was an amazingly successful car.
(06:26):
It won Sebring as a 9 34.
It won Sebring.
I don't think we ever won Sebringwith that car as a 9 35, but of course
we won at Daytona with it in 81.
And then maybe even more famously,in 19 79, 78, I think it was Paul
Newman finished second in the samecar at Le Mans, currently owned by
um, Adam Corolla, who has it restoredin the colors that Paul Newman drove
(06:49):
in, but an amazingly successful car.
So in any event, I'm trying to think.
The first race we did with thatcar, I believe was Sebring.
We did Riverside, a six hour Riversiderace, did Sears Point, Watkins Glen.
I was on pole at the Watkins Glensix hour race ahead of the works.
Lance is, and you name it.
Everybody in the world was thereat uh, most part we raced it
and I'm not quite sure, I can'tremember the la the other race.
(07:11):
But in any event, I just got thisopportunity through Garson, through
Bob and probably Dick Barber.
I would assume it to some level.
It was a great experienceand I loved driving the car.
And of course then a year afterthat we go to Daytona with Bob and
Brian Redmond and win the 24 hour.
So, you know, had a lot ofsuccess with that single car.
You already had a bunch ofexperience driving in Europe.
(07:32):
Yeah.
But Le Mans was stillone of the crown jewels.
Yeah.
You on your bucket list you wanted to raceat and then you finally get there in 1980.
Yep.
Did it live up to your expectations?
It, it was such, such an amazing.
Event.
You know, Le Mans it like they say,they say the three biggest races are
Le Mans, Indy 500 and Monaco GrandPrix, and I think that's so right.
(07:53):
Because the environment is just sounique and so amazing and so electrifying
that with all due respect to allthe other races around the world.
You go to Le Mans in India, or MonMonaco and I, I've raced at Monaco in
the Formula three series with Dallara.
You know, these are bigger thanlife, these events, and certainly
Le Mans was no different.
(08:13):
I mean, I've watchedthe Steve McQueen movie.
When I was a teenager,17 years old or whatever.
Again, for me, because I wanted torace in Europe, to go to Le Mans was
just a dream come true, and it didn'tlet me down in any respect at all.
I mean, it was an amazing circuit.
Of course, it still at that timehad the original moles on straight,
all three miles or so of it.
It didn't have the original part thatwas like White House corner and, and
(08:36):
things like that, but it was stillpretty much the original Le Mans.
It had the Dunlop curve, which wasa fantastic coming up the front
straightaway and we go underneath theDunlop Bridge fast corner, very high risk
corner, especially when it was raining.
But yeah, you know, I, I really tickedthat, you know, that little box on
your bucket list or whatever to raceat Le Mans, even though we ended up
(08:57):
not finishing the race that year,we had been competitive and, and so
disappointing not to finish, but sosatisfying just to have been there.
So, a lot of other legends that have beenon the show and, and are within your era.
Mm-hmm.
There's like a 20 year span there.
Talk about preparing for Le Mans, howdifficult it was compared to today, where
you have, every simulator has a versionof Le Mans that you could race and try.
(09:19):
How did you prepare for Le Mans?
Did somebody give you notes orpointers or did you just figure
it out on your first out lab?
No, you know, in my day, as yousay, you didn't have simulators.
I don't remember people taking muchin the way of notes about anything.
I mean, it's not like today.
No, it was on the job training.
You would, uh, go out and dopractice regardless of what track
(09:39):
you were coming to, especiallyif it was for the first time.
Your ability to be competitive was basedon your ability to really learn the
circuit quickly and to just have thatability to take it all in as quickly as
possible and then take advantage of it.
And of course, every session you drove,every time you went out, you were just
building up that knowledge of the circuit.
And that even held true during therace, during each stint that you drove.
(10:01):
You know, there was just something elseyou would learn and you get better at it.
So no, there was, there was no racing.
There was no Jim Russell, there was no,uh, again, no, as you say, no simulator.
No.
It was just up to you and the team.
And Yes.
If you had, for example, I mean, Iwas so lucky to have to drive with
Brian Reman on a number of occasions.
Because Brian would kind offill you in, Hey, you gotta
(10:22):
look for this, look for that.
But I would also tell you that mostdrivers, they didn't share that much.
It was, it's up to you kid to learn.
And so you took advantage ofevery second you had on the track.
And again, tried to learn everythingyou could every time you were in
that car and, and that's just kindof the way that was the way it was.
So let's dig into the 1980race just a little bit more.
Mm-hmm.
You touched on some of the highlights.
(10:44):
As a private tier team,Garson Enterprises.
Right.
This wasn't a Porsche backed team.
You guys were on your own.
Right.
You know, small operation.
What was it like strategy wise comparedto what you were used to coming from
IndyCar, coming from other racing?
How did you have to adapt?
Challenges you had to overcome?
Well, remember again, I hadn't been inIndyCar until 82, so when I went in 80,
you know, my experience was mainly FormulaAtlantic, a year of Formula three, year
(11:08):
of Formula Two and two Formula One races.
But Garson Enterprises was justa phenomenal organization, and
yet it was really based on, yes,there were a couple professional
people within that organization.
Jerry Woods was pretty much dedicatedto building the engines, and he was a
great engine builder is a great enginebuilder, and of course Bob Garson,
(11:29):
you know, he had been to Le Mans acouple times prior to my being there.
He was a very studious guy, amateur,but very good driver and really
kinda led the team not just ontrack, but off track and by example.
Bob was a wonderful man who just passedaway about three, four months ago.
But that team was made up for the mostpart of weekend Warriors, and these guys
(11:51):
and ladies were so dedicated to this.
Even today, there's guys like Marty Roff.
He, he was an IBM guy.
In fact, I think he just retired from IBM.
Only a year or two ago he spent, he's,like I told you, he always kidded him.
He was the, the longestremaining employee of IBM.
But these guys was just notMartin or Marty as we call him.
You know his brother Mark andstill is involved with him.
(12:12):
So for many years, and Mark was involveda certain degree, but there was just
a bunch of other people that were.
Involved yet, you know, but veryknowledgeable, very dedicated.
These were amateur, these wereweekend warriors that dedicated
themselves to Garrisson Enterprises.
I mean, they loved the racing.
You know, they traveled all overthe place and I mean, it was a
phenomenal team that I would putup against any pro team anytime.
(12:36):
I mean, that was just the nature.
The quality of the people that wereinvolved, some of whom are no longer
with us, but the quality of thepeople, dedication and the knowledge.
I mean, it just, it was amazing,which is what attributed to their
success as a, as an organization andhow they could beat very professional
teams that came outta Europe.
I mean, Garrett's an enterprises,they were as good as it got,
(12:57):
regardless of who we were up against.
And so, uh.
You know when you went to places likeLe Mans and in fact John Fitzpatrick
that year with the 9 3 5 with that teamwas very successful across the board.
I mean, when I drove there in 1980, itwas raining at the start of the race.
It rained for a lot of the race.
I remember going at night, nowwe get to night and the road,
you know, it was convoluted.
The straightaway, there's dips andthere's, you name it, and so you're
(13:20):
going down there, you're thinking, isthat a puddle or is that just a shadow?
And you're going 200 miles an hour,and if you hit a puddle at 200 miles an
hour and you're not really prepared forit, that might have bad consequences.
I mean, it was a superchallenge in the race.
Fitzpatrick and I were running together.
I think he was maybe a lap ahead ofus at the time, but anyway, right.
It was.
Dry at this point, and I wasright up underneath his rear wing.
(13:43):
The headlights on my carare like bleaching out all
the sign writing on his car.
They're so bright, but in the back ofhis car is literally on fire in the sense
that, you know, the exhaust system'sglowing red, the turbos are glowing red.
There's fire coming outta the turbosand outta the wastegate exhaust, and
it was just the most amazing site.
You're in the middle of the night,so it's black all around this.
(14:03):
Cars all lit up like a Christmas tree.
I wish John had a camera.
I wish I could have taken ashot 'cause it, it would've
just been an awesome picture.
John was a tremendous driver,is a tremendous driver.
But that team really is what empoweredhim to have the success he had.
And I think he wouldagree with me on that.
I had the benefit of the same people, so.
It was a bunch of weekend warriors,but these guys were pretty damn good
(14:26):
at what they did, and they couldgo out and compete against anybody.
So let's talk about the 9 35.
We had Rick Nup on, yeah.
Last year.
Who raced Kremmer nine 30 fives.
Mm-hmm.
Later evolution of the same car youdrove, or similar car that you drove.
Everybody that's talked about9 35 say how unruly they are.
They're just beasts that you got amanhandle for Rick, it sort of suited
his driving style, but for you it wasat its early stages of development.
(14:49):
What did you think of driving the 9 35?
Well, you know, in 1979 I won a a sportscar race with Brian Redman in MidOhio, and
a Canadian driver named Vic Heim, who wasone of the real star of Canadian racing.
He had a 9 3 5, but itwas a single turbo, 9 35.
I drove the car and practiced at MidOhioand I thought, oh my God, I don't know
how you drive something like this.
(15:10):
'cause the throttle legin the car was so bad.
One of those, you put your foot downand you count to like five, and then
all of a sudden the power comes in.
I elected not to drivethat car That weekend.
Drove with Brian.
We won the race two liter sportscar, but by 1980 now, they'd
all gone to twin turbos and thatchanged that card dramatically
because it now it had response.
(15:31):
The 9 3 5 did several things very well.
One.
It went like a bat outta hell.
You know, it had a lot of power.
Two, the brakes were pretty good on it.
All of that was mitigated by the factthat it was a basically a nine 11 chassis.
I mean, we had a adjustable frontroll bar on the car, and I swore that
I could move the roll bar wherever Iwanted to, and there'd be no difference.
There was probably thatmuch flex in the chassis.
(15:52):
I mean, remember it had analuminum tube roll cage, which
you look back now and you think.
Good thing.
I never had an accident in that car.
'cause I can't imagine a aluminumtube roll cage would do much.
But the car was a flexi flyer.
I mean, it is one of those deals thatwhen you really drove the car, I mean you
could drive it with some oversteer in it.
Some of that was induced by power, butsome of it was by tuning the car a bit.
(16:14):
Was it the best handlingcar I've ever driven?
No, but you know, at the time itwas the most competitive car and so
you wanted to be in a 9 3 5 Porsche.
Great story was in, I think it was 1980.
In fact, we're at El Car Lakeand I'm in the car and John
Fitzpatrick's in the um, Sox car.
We're practicing and he's like, threeseconds, four seconds faster than me.
(16:35):
And I'm just like, there's no way.
'cause I'm driving the wheelsoff it and there's no way he's
four seconds quicker than me.
And I, you know, I was told,oh, you can only go to 1.2 bar
barometric pressure on the boost.
Well, as you know, Elkhart Lake hasthree very long straightaways amongst
other things, and I think it wasbefore qualifying or, or right after.
But one of the mechanics came up to meand said, you know, John's using 1.4 bar.
(16:58):
Oh really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's using 1.4.
Hmm.
Okay.
That's good to know.
Thank you for that.
So I went out and, uh, in qualifyingand of course you could raise
the, there's a, I wanna say alittle wheelhouse or whatever.
You'd adjust the boost bydown by the gear shift.
So what the heck?
I'm gonna see what this does.
And I didn't beat John, but I gotwithin a 10th or something of 'em.
'cause now when you go 1.4 bar, nowyou're going a lot faster down the strai
(17:22):
at one than you are at 1.2 and you'recoming off the corners a lot harder.
At 1.4 engine power was.
Almost everything in that thing.
So it was the best carto drive at the time.
Uh, was it the best car period?
No, but it was a great car and uh,we had lots of success in the car
and if you treated it right, carefulwith the gearbox as we did at Daytona
in 81, didn't get greedy with it.
(17:44):
I mean, you could have great races in it,as we did at Daytona 81, and it was really
a, at the time, just the car to have.
So let's switch gears and talk aboutyour second attempt at Le Mans 1982.
Let's not.
Porsche at this point had reallystopped producing the 9 35.
Right.
Although they were continued in privatetier entries for a couple more years.
(18:05):
Right.
They were focusing theirattention on the 9 56 and then
subsequently the 9 62 after that.
Yeah.
However, there was a big shift, especiallyat Garson Enterprises to move to a
March group C car instead of stickingwith Porsche and maybe doing a 9 56.
Why was that decision made?
Do you have any inside baseball on that?
(18:26):
Well first, and you might rememberthis, that in 81 I drove with
Jim Perro Moretti in the Yost.
It was a Moby Dick car.
Basically.
It wasn't a factory car, but Yosthad built his own version of the
Moby Dick right hand drive, which,you know, all the nine three fives
were left hand drive 'cause they'rebased on a stock nine 11 chassis.
But this one was right hand drive.
Of course, on road courses, mostof those road courses go clockwise.
(18:49):
So you wanna be on the, you know,on the inside of the corners.
It was a left hand shift thattook a little getting used to.
But in terms of pure, probably speed,that was a very, very quick 9, 3, 5.
We didn't have a lot of success with it.
I think we finished second in mid Ohiowith it and, and what have you, but it
was an amazing car, so that was a thrill.
But, so in 1981, it was clear that the 9 35 was pretty much at the end of its line.
(19:12):
Lola had come out with a T600 that Brian drove to a
championship win in in IMSA in 81.
And that was powered by a six literChevy, a normally aspirated stock block.
Very strong car.
Especially compared to thenine three fives or anything
else that was out at the time.
So Garson, Dick Barber, I thinkeverybody was of the view.
Why don't we combine the bestof English designers, IE Lola.
(19:36):
And with the best of what Germany couldprovide, which was 9 3 5 engines and
gearboxes, they decided we would goto Le Mans with a Lola T 600 powered
by a 9 3 5 engine 9 3 5 gearbox.
You know, sadly, or whatever.
It's like anything that just wasn't givenenough time, perhaps not enough resource.
But I remember flying,gonna go to Le Mans.
(19:56):
I was on my way to Europe toprepare for Le Mans, and they
said, come to Sears Point.
And they called it in thosedays, and now it's Sonoma.
Mm-hmm.
And they said, come to Sears because we,we wanna do a test with the car before
we put it on the airplane to go to Paris.
So, okay, so I fly to SanFrancisco, drive up to Sears Point,
get there and nobody's there.
I'm there, but nobody else isthere and I'm waiting, waiting.
(20:19):
No transporter, no car, no nothing.
Finally at like, I think it was two orthree in the afternoon, I'd been there
probably six, seven hours at the time.
I called 'em up and Isaid, Hey, what's going on?
Are we, does this test happen?
He said, no.
No, we're not gonna beable to do the test.
So I drove to the San Franciscoairport and flew over to to Europe.
Well, you don't go to the Le Mans 24hour with a car that's never turned
(20:40):
a wheel prior to getting there.
And that was the case with this car.
If you looked at it, you say, oh,this thing, nobody stands a chance.
But it had not turned a wheel, andit's, of course, now Brian Redmond
and I are gonna drive the car.
We get to Le Mans, everything'sby all rights, looks like it
should, you know, just dominate.
Over the couple days, we couldn'tbuild up any boost pressure in the car.
(21:01):
The intercos leaked andGod knows what all else.
And again, it never turned a wheel.
Frankly, we couldn't qualifythe car because it wasn't fast,
'cause it just didn't generate thepower and it wasn't fast enough.
I think probably in the end that probablywas a good thing because if it had been
running like a 9, 3, 5 engine car shouldrun, it might have killed one of us.
'cause frankly, you know, we'dhave gone very, very fast.
(21:23):
But very disappointingfor everybody, I think.
And, and the team had bustedtheir butts working late nights.
Again, remember this is semipro team.
People working on the car also have jobsduring the day, not just working on that.
And these people wereworking all night long and.
It was an experience that everybodylooks back now and truly understands
why it wasn't able to perform.
(21:43):
You know, very sad.
Could have been so good yet itwas kind of so bad and in the end
we didn't qualify and went homewith our tails between our legs.
So that was 81.
That was 81 and 82.
82. Again, it's clear that theGTP category is the category.
It was in SA, I mean, we, we had a March82, March, GTP cars to drive at Daytona.
(22:03):
I said pole position,lap record with the car.
Amazingly, we had a greatengine, a guy named Franz Weiss.
Franz was Jim Hall's enginebuilder at Chaparral.
He built my engines in IndyCar,Mario Andretti's engines in IndyCar.
I mean Franz Weiss and hiscompany was, and especially stock
blocks Can-Am stuff like that.
If not the best, I'm notsure who had been better.
(22:24):
Just produced great product.
So we're at Daytona again, six literChevy V eight, normally aspirated.
And I, I was on pole.
I mean, I remember driving past, Ithink it was Fitzpatrick on the banking.
You know, you think the nine30 five's fast in a stray line.
But this march with this engine, andof course it was a much smaller frontal
area compared to a 9 35, of course,it had instant response with the stock
(22:47):
block Chevy, again, set it on pole andamazingly we were like running, I think
third overall or so with maybe an hourand a half, two hours at most to go.
And finally the gearbox gave up the ghost.
But the fact that it was that strong inthe right, in the 24 hour and was fairly
reliable, that caused us to all thinka lot about what do you do at Le Mans?
(23:07):
You know, we went to Sebringa month and a half later.
So again, I set pole position, lap record.
That still exists todayon the 5.2 mile circuit.
The gearbox was kind of theAchilles heel to the car, but
we lost two of the four gears.
I think we only had second and fourth.
Even with that, and of course atestament to Franz Weiss's engines.
'cause I go down the back straightat Sebring and it's like pegged
at 8,000 RPMs or whatever.
(23:28):
I mean, it, it is just, there was no fifthgear to go to and 'cause it was gone.
And yet, I mean the thing ran and ran.
We finished second to John Paul's 9 35 by, I think it was 18 seconds maybe,
or eight seconds, something like that.
You know, and sea ring was just so toughin those days, physically on the car.
So.
In any event, his car showed that it couldbe competitive with anything out there,
so we went to Le Mans with it that year.
(23:49):
At this point, you're alsorunning Indy cars, right?
So when you compare a group C prototypewith Downforce and everything else, that's
different than the Indy car, what werethey like when you compare and control?
Were they similar to drive or werethey horses of a different car?
Well, the Indy cars were faster, even 82.
I mean, they had a lot of power,a lot of downforce lighter.
Those cars still had a fairamount of throttle lag.
(24:09):
The Indy cars did single turbo.
You know, and of course, you know, ona road course, they were considerably
faster than anything out there.
The Indy car was just a fasterrace car than IMSA or GTP.
But GTP cars were stillgreat cars to drive.
You know, as I tell people, I think thething that always impressed me when I
first started driving Indy cars in 82 wasthat the car never stopped accelerating
(24:30):
no matter how long the straightaway was.
Whereas in a sports car, a 9,3 5 or a March or whatever.
You know, you go to Moison at Lemo,for example, and it basically stopped
about halfway down the street, youknow, accelerating, just kind of sat
there, but, you know, different cars.
It's just the reality.
But yeah, the, the March again,you're talking about a car
built by March Engineering.
(24:51):
Much more sophisticated than thenine three fives, the chassis design,
the componentry, you know, the 93 5, in many respects was still a,
a well-developed nine 11, whereasa march was a pure racing car.
And so consequently the performanceof the two were different.
But in the end, especially in enduranceracing, the the nine, the Porsches, the
nine three fives had, you know, yearsof experience, they had reliability.
(25:15):
The engines were super reliable.
Gearbox was, as long as you were good tothem, super reliable brakes were good.
But that's what made the difference.
Whereas the march was really acar that was meant to go at most
six hours and to ask it to domore was probably asking too much.
For those that don't know how1982 ended, is that how it ends
for the March story at Le Mans?
Well, you know, we splita fuel tank at Le Mans.
(25:37):
Disappointing.
Yeah, we got there.
We had run outta money.
We no longer had Franz license engines.
And of course the mul on Straits Aalong straightaway, if you don't have
any power, you know, we went thereand we just didn't have any grunt.
The engine manufacturer wehad who will go unnamed, the
engines just weren't good enough.
You know, arrow wise, maybe the marchcarried a little too much drag in
(25:57):
it compared to the Porsches, whichyou didn't really necessarily see
a place like Daytona or Sebring,but you'd see it at Le Mans.
In any event, you know, wequalified, but not that well.
And of course, in the race, the fueltank split after about three hours and.
That was, that we were done.
We, we did run the car, uh,numerous SA races following Le Mans.
You know, one of the things we foundafter Le Mans, which was that Seabring
(26:20):
had basically destroyed the chassis.
You know, the rivets had in the cockhad been loosened up or fell out,
or, I mean, the car was not preparedwell, again, financially, it wasn't
garson, it was the sponsor of the team.
Ran outta money, and so the maintenanceof the car suffered as a result.
And of course the differentengine builder, all these things
contributed to not really having acompetitive proposition at Le Mans 82.
(26:43):
Of course, then again, the fueltank splits and very disappointing.
I'm not sure we would'vebeen as competitive as say
we were at Daytona Sebring.
We should have been morecompetitive than we were in.
In any event, we went back to thestates, ran a few more races again,
with not very good engines, again,suffered the consequence of that.
So the glory races for that car forus at least, was Daytona and Sebring.
(27:06):
Now the next year with creepy crawley,they're the ones that put a 9 3 5
gearbox boxing engine in a march anddominated Daytona and won a lot of races.
And then of course, later on in 84,now I'm driving Bruce Levins 9 6
2 Porsche, one of the first ones.
We're racing against Randall Lanierin the Whittingtons in a march
Chevy, and that car had been fullydeveloped and that was the car to have.
(27:27):
So the, the March chassiswas the right chassis.
It's just we didn't have theresource to really run it properly
and we suffered as a result.
Did your Le Mans's journey stop in82 because of your rise in IndyCar,
or were there other attempts togo back to Le Mans over the years?
Oh, well, for the most part,yes, because of IndyCar.
The Portland IndyCar race used toalways be on the same weekend or
(27:50):
thereabouts as Le Mans in June.
One of my great what ifs with my greatfriend, Jochen Moss, who he and I won
Sibr together in 87 with the 9 6 2,is that he asked me to drive with him
and in the Saber, the Mercedes and Ithink it was 1989, you know, 'cause
we had obviously won Sebring together.
We became friends, you know, goodco-drivers together, good relationship.
(28:13):
I had to say no.
And of course that's the year he wonLe Mans, or one of the years he won Le
Mans with the Mercedes powered sober.
As you can imagine what ifs, right?
The thing that kind of disappointsme in myself is that when I started
to focus more just on IndyCarracing, I think probably around
19 90, 91, that was a mistake.
Having had the success, I'd hadan IndyCar, I'D won the 500.
(28:35):
By that time, I'd wona couple championships.
I had won Sebring in 87, anumber of other SA races in 87.
And I don't know why, but I thought,uh, I just, I'm, I don't wanna
travel that much or something.
And I decided not to, to getout of sports car racing.
And I really think I lost opportunitiesthat could have perhaps enabled me to
win Le Mans because I really think thatwould've been great to say, you know,
(28:58):
you want indie, you, you want Le Mans.
Never won Formula One World Championship.
But, you know, those are twopretty good championships to win.
In any event, I, I look back and Ithink, you know, I shouldn't have
done that because as I say, I thinkI had, I would've had opportunities,
but it is what it is, you know?
Now for me it's really about, youknow, I want RLL Raul Letterman
Lanigan racing to go to Le Mans.
(29:18):
Well, I may not be ableto win it as a driver.
I can win it as a team owner,and that's certainly something
that I've been disappointed overthe last several years with BMW.
We weren't asked to do that.
But you know, maybe one ofthese days we can go there as
a team and, and win the race.
That won't maybe be quite thesame as winning as a driver,
but it'll be pretty nice.
Since we're talking about lessonslearned, one of the things that a lot
(29:40):
of the pro drivers that we have onthe show talk about is how Le Mans's.
Profoundly changed them as adriver and the things that they
took away, the memories obviously,that they created that enthusiasm.
They reached their bucket list.
Yeah, there's a whole new experience.
How did Le Mans change you?
What did you learn from it?
Lessons, memories that youtook back with you to IndyCar
maybe made you a better driver?
(30:01):
Well, I think that.
Yeah, Le Mans, especially in the,with the 9, 3, 5, you know, remember
it didn't have a rev limiter.
I mean, it was a synchronous transmission.
It wasn't straight cut gears.
It wasn't like today wherethe gearings electronically or
hydraulically motivated, or, I mean,it was a conventional gear box.
It was conventional brakes,and Brian Redmond was really a
(30:21):
great teacher for me about this.
Is that, you know, this is how you haveto drive the car in order to get it
to the end of the race, whether it'sDaytona, Sebring, Le Mans, whatever.
And it really did teach me how toget the maximum out of the car.
Having minimum, I don't wannasay consequence, but you know,
get the most feet outta the carat the least price to the car.
(30:42):
In other words, taking it easyon the brakes, careful on the
gearbox, making sure when you makethe shift that you're in gear.
I mean, all these thingsbecause you didn't have the
protections that you have today.
You know, I remember Redmond tellingme that one year he and CFR were.
Pretty much ready to win Le Mansmaybe in two hours to go and sit.
Missed a gear shift on the front,straight over rev the engine
(31:03):
in the nine 17 and it blew up.
And that was that.
You know, that was thesame with the 9 3 5.
I mean, you had to be sure of everythingyou did and you had to be careful
everything you did and you had todrive it carefully as you could go
and yet as quick bay as you could go.
And that later on with Indy cars andeverything else, I drove 9 6 2, whatever
that later on was, gave me greatexperience, great lessons to learn from.
(31:23):
It gave me the successthat I had in later years.
Alright, Bobby, so before wetransition into our last segment here,
wrapping up this episode, there'sa couple crowd questions for you.
Sure.
So first off, Ron Meyerwrites, can you please ask him
about the Otter Pops sponsor?
Well that was IndyCar.
Yeah.
Paul Pope owned a company called OtterPops, that's frozen popsicles, right.
(31:47):
He regrettably passed away a fewyears ago, but just a great guy.
Had a great time with him andhe got hooked up with Maury
Cranes who owned Kraco, who wasthe owner of the Kraco team.
I went to drive for Kraco in 89.
Otter Pops was one ofthe associate sponsors.
Yeah, we were very popular in thepaddock area 'cause we had all
the Otter pop bars for everybody.
But yeah, I guess one of the bestthings about racing over the years for
(32:10):
me is uh, and I tell people this, isthat you meet really fabulous people.
Some aren't so fabulous,but frankly, most are.
And Paul was certainly one of those.
Maury Cranes was certainly one ofthose, and I was fortunate to count
them as friends and fortunate todrive for them, and fortunate to
have a lot of experiences with 'em.
Bob Varsha, oh boy.
The Bob Varsha wants to know, whatadvice would you give your son Graham
(32:32):
about continuing his driving careerwhen everything else is going so well?
And do you see yourself runninga Le Mans's Classic with him?
So first off, in 2005, Graham wasrunning, what do they call it?
Uh, Mazda Super Mazdaor something like that.
He finished second in Montrealfor the Montreal Race Grand Prix.
And we got on a plane.
(32:52):
I said, we're gonna go to Le Mans.
I really was pushing him to say,one of these days, you've gotta
go run Le Mans, you gotta do it.
So I took him over there now in 2005.
So in oh five he was 16 years old.
So we flew over and we didn't stay forthe race, but we flew around and we
walked around the track basically, youknow, we're hacking through the bush.
I said, I want you to go down, we're gonnago down to this place called Re, which is
(33:14):
halfway down the Mulsanne Strait, right.
And there's a bar on one side restaurantand, and I said, I want you to go
down, we're gonna go down there.
And we got through the bush.
Watched the cars go byat 200 miles an hour.
Then we went back to the paddock,went up in the Ferris wheel.
Very kind of emotional kind of thing,you know, that all of these sensations
that I had experienced over my yearsthat I wanted him to get a feel for and
(33:35):
appreciation of, and got up in the Ferriswheel there right by the last chicane and.
At night practice.
And you know, as I've alwaystold him, and I still tell him,
I said he's still a young guy.
He is 36 years old, so he's got plentyof time if he wants to go there.
But there race and Le Mans.
What a great experience it was for me.
I hope he does it one day.
'cause I think he'll feel the same wayas far as the, uh, Le Mans Classic.
(33:56):
I've done that twice.
Brian Redmond, I, I had anine 17 Porsche in 2002.
The first Le Mans Classic.
He and I drove that car there.
I thought, who better than to getBrian Redmond to co drive with you
at, you know, in a nine 17 Porsche.
We had mechanical issues, so we didn'tfinish, but still a great experience.
And later then I went and racedin a three liter Lola prototype.
(34:16):
Three or four years later, I'm, I'm doneracing, you know, my day's over and I
don't think Graham's ready to, I thinkhe always thought I was crazy doing
these races with these old race cars.
'cause there's certainly nosafer today than they were in
the day, which wasn't very safe.
Right.
So.
I doubt I can get him into one, butyeah, that, that's a great event.
You know, Le Mans's a great event.
Le Mans classic's a great event,especially if you love the old historic
(34:38):
cars and, and you see many of them.
And, and I was very fortunate.
I drove a Fellow's two 50 LM Ferrarione time there at the Le Mans Classic.
The Lola T 2 86 was a threeliter DFE Cosworth powered car.
Of course the nine 17 and others.
So, I mean, Le Mans is Le Mans,it doesn't matter what's driving
on the track, it's a hell of anevent and a hell of an experience.
So since you brought up classic, thatwould've been the new track format because
(35:01):
yes, it started way after the redesign.
When you compare driving Le Mansnnow, let's say in a classic event
compared to then, what do you thinkof the evolution of the track?
Well, you know, I'm atraditionalist in a lot of ways.
I can understand maybe one of thechicanes, um, za, I'm not sure about
two, but I can understand that.
I mean, I was fortunate and I feelfortunate to say to people today, oh
(35:23):
yeah, no, I drove the real moan, rait.
There is no question that the riskfactor was high, no question about it.
Maybe I feel less concerned aboutit because nothing ever happened
to me on that part of the track,but for sure a lot of risk.
I'm glad we, I experienced that, so Iunderstand why they made the chicanes that
Le Mans, but frankly, I think they causedmore incidents than they had before.
(35:46):
The most disappointing change forme at Le Mans today compared to when
I drove is the Dunlop Curve comingup, the front strait, going up the
hill underneath the Dunlop Bridge.
It was a, a fast bend that thenled down to that left hand corner.
I can't remember the name of it.
I'm not, I'm gonna say TetRouge, but I don't think it is.
And that was an amazing corner, youknow, fast and yet, you know, really
(36:08):
attest, you know, not horribly risky,I would say, but still, just some
really great corner and a great sighton the track arcing over the the hill.
And turning right slightly.
And that's gone.
And what they've got now is, you know,I'm not a big fan of it, but the rest
of the track is really not a wholelot different than when I drove it.
In fact, when I drove my nine 17there, you know when you went and
came through Mulsanne Corner and wenttowards Indianapolis, that's pretty
(36:31):
much the same as it was 1970 or 71.
And, and so when I told people, Isaid, when I went through there,
you're going there 200 miles an hour.
And I went through, you know, there'stwo kinks, right between Mulsanne and,
and Indianapolis and the second onehas a little bit more elevation to it.
And you go through there, you don't justsquint too much to think it was 1970,
it was really right out of the movieLe Mans there, you know, the rest of
(36:53):
the track is not a whole lot different,but as I said, I kind of get Mulsanne.
But I really disappointed aboutthe changes they made at, at.
So, Bobby, earlier you talked about whatifs, a lot of thinking about what ifs.
So what if we could transportBobby Raha 1980 to 2025?
What car would you jump in to runthe 24 hours of Le Mans this year?
I think you'd have to sayit's gotta be a Porsche.
(37:16):
You know, the odds are prettygood if you're in a Porsche.
My dad raced at Porsche Carrero six.
We had an Elva Porsche, of course Idrove the nine three fives, drove 9 6
2, which I did five races in 87 in Imon.
I won three of 'em with the 9 6 2, andthen I won two other races with 9 6 2.
So I mean, it was an amazing car.
And I have the feeling thatdriving the current Porsche is
not a whole lot different, whichis why they win a lot of races.
(37:38):
'cause if there's a companythat understands endurance
racing, it's Porsche.
If I'm gonna go back and if there's a car,for sure, a manufacturer would be Porsche.
So looking back, how do you think yourparticipation in Le Mans contributes to
the broader story of your racing legacy?
Well, I think there's just the fact thatI did it again, I wasn't successful doing
it, but you know, I, I was willing to tryjust about anything to further my career.
(38:02):
And for me, clearly because of my father'sexperience racing at Seabring and Watkins
Glen, my being there from a gopher to aweekend warrior mechanic, teenager, to
seeing the racing, I mean, sports carracing was always very important to me.
Still is last 17 years or 18years, for me, some of the best
has been associated with BMW.
In their sports car racing program.
(38:23):
We've won Daytona twice, won sea ringa couple times, a lot of other races.
I mean, I just love sports, car racing,you know, it's like anything, I don't
think I made Le Mans in any way.
I think it made me in in certain ways.
You know, it's disappointing not to goback to be able to drive there or be
a team owner there, at least for themoment, but clearly one of these days.
And just being able to tell people myexperience going down the mos on straight.
(38:46):
Or my experience of going throughIndianapolis or any, or the Dunlop Curve.
I mean that to me that I have anexperience that few people have,
and that's something that I treasureand it's something I think has value
for people when they're interestedin talking about great events like
the Lamo 24 Hour, what's next?
You kind of hinted at a couple things.
What's going on?
Well, I mean, I'm hopeful.
(39:07):
Next is us as a team runningat Lamo one of these days.
That's the big goal.
Mean, obviously we stillwant to go win Indy again.
We've won that three times as ateam and for me once as an owner,
so four victories at at Indy.
Wanna do more of that?
I mean, anything we enter, we want to win.
But I would love to be able to go backto Le Mans as a team and competitively
race against the other teams and.
(39:29):
You know, potentially win that race.
Maybe I'd hang it up after that.
I'm not sure.
'cause F FDA won India,Daytona and Le Mans.
Kinda like, well what else is there?
Right.
On that note, it's time for me topass the torch to our A-C-O-U-S-A
President for some final thoughts.
Bobby?
Thank you so much.
It's been an honor and apleasure on behalf of the a
CO, the A-C-O-U-S-A community.
(39:51):
Thank you.
You're so gracious with your time.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Well, it's great seeing you andyou know, this is an important
event for all of us, right?
And, uh, I love talking about it.
Wish I could talk more about it.
Wish I had more experience,but I love talking about it.
And uh, as I say, one daymaybe we'll be back there.
We look forward to that.
Thank you, and that's the finish linefor this evening with a legend where
we took a closer look at the enduranceracing chapter of Bobby Ray Hall's storied
(40:15):
career known to most as an indie carlegend and team owner Bobby's Ventures
into the 24 hours reveal, a drivereager to push boundaries and compete on
the world's biggest motorsport stage.
Bobby's experiences behind the wheeland lessons learned in the grueling
environment of Le Mans adds yet anotherlayer to his already remarkable legacy.
So to keep up with Bobby's ongoing workin Motorsport, check out ray hall.com or
(40:38):
follow Ray Hall Letterman Lannigan Racingon your favorite social media platforms.
And we hope you enjoyed this presentationand look forward to more evening
with a legend throughout the season.
And on behalf of everyone here andthose listening at home, thank you
Bobby, for sharing your stories with us.
My pleasure and thank you so muchfor giving me the time to chat
with everybody and with yourselvesand, and it's been a real pleasure.
(40:59):
And on a personal note, it has been anabsolute honor to interview you tonight.
So thank you.
Watching you growing up ontv, all those kinds of things.
Absolutely amazing.
Thank you.
Take care.
(41:20):
This episode has been brought to youby the Automobile Club of the West and
the A-C-O-U-S-A from the awe-inspiringspeed demons that have graced the
track to the courageous drivers whohave pushed the limits of endurance.
The 24 hours of Le Mans is anautomotive spectacle like no other.
For over a century the 24 hoursLe Mans has urged manufacturers to
innovate for the benefit of futuremotorists, and it's a celebration of
(41:42):
the relentless pursuit of speed andexcellence in the world of motorsports.
To learn more about or to become a memberof the ACO USA, look no further than
www.Le Mansn.org, click on English inthe upper right corner and then click
on the a CO members tab for club offers.
Once you've become a member, you canfollow all the action on the Facebook
(42:03):
group, A-C-O-U-S-A Members Club, andbecome part of the Legend with Future
Evening with the legend meetups.
This episode has been brought to youby Grand Touring Motorsports as part
of our Motoring Podcast network.
(42:24):
For more episodes like this, tune in eachweek for more exciting and educational
content from organizations like TheExotic Car Marketplace, the Motoring
Historian, break Fix, and many others.
If you'd like to support GrandTouring Motorsport and the Motoring
Podcast Network, sign up for oneof our many sponsorship tiers at
www.patreon.com/gt Motorsports.
(42:45):
Please note that the content,opinions and materials presented and
expressed in this episode are thoseof its creator, and this episode has
been published with their consent.
If you have any inquiries about thisprogram, please contact the creators
of this episode via email or socialmedia as mentioned in the episode.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.