August 19, 2025 • 43 mins
Tonight, we have an opportunity to bring a piece of Le Mans to you, sharing in the Legend of Le Mans with guests from different eras of over 100 years of racing.
Harley Cluxton - a notable figure in motorsport history, known for a successful racing career with the Ferrari factory team and the North American Racing Team (NART) in the 1970s, becoming the youngest exclusive Authorized Ferrari Dealer in the U.S. at age 26. But did you know that he played a pivotal role in sustaining and advancing the Mirage Racing Team's legacy at the 24 Hours of Le Mans during the late 1970s?
In 1975, following Gulf Oil's withdrawal from international motorsport, Harley acquired the Mirage team from John Wyer and operating under his company, Grand Touring Cars, Inc., he relocated the team to Arizona and continued to field Mirage prototypes at Le Mans throughout the ‘70s. Under his leadership, the Mirage cars consistently performed well at Le Mans, never finishing outside the top ten, and Harley's commitment ensured that Mirage remained a competitive force in endurance racing during a transformative period for the sport; and as a result he was also recognized as Member #1 of the International Club des Pilotes in 2012, highlighting his significant contributions to motorsport. And he’s here with us tonight, to recount some of that story… on this first-ever LIVE EWAL recording from the Simeone Foundation Museum in Philadelphia, PA.
===== (Oo---x---oO) =====
00:00 Meet Harley Cluxton: A Racing Icon 02:14 Harley's Early Racing Days 03:52 The Ferrari Connection 05:02 Racing Adventures and Challenges 15:18 Transition to Team Ownership; Acquiring the Mirage Team 22:18 Le Mans 1975: A Fuel Efficiency Challenge 23:54 The Mirage Team and John Wyer's Legacy 26:44 The Love-Hate Relationship with Le Mans 30:04 The Hippie Porsche 917: A Unique Ownership Experience 33:18 The Future of Mirage and Le Mans Classic 36:58 Reflections on Modern Motorsport 40:40 Closing Remarks and Acknowledgements====================
The Motoring Podcast Network : Years of racing, wrenching and Motorsports experience brings together a top notch collection of knowledge, stories and information. #everyonehasastory #gtmbreakfix - motoringpodcast.net
- More Information: https://www.motoringpodcast.net/
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To learn more about or to become a member of the ACO USA, look no further than www.lemans.org, Click on English in the upper right corner and then click on the ACO members tab for Club Offers. Once you become a Member you can follow all the action on the Facebook group ACOUSAMembersClub; and become part of the Legend with future Evening With A Legend meet ups.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Evening With a Legend is a seriesof presentations exclusive to
legends of the famous 24 hoursof Le Mans giving us an opportunity
to bring a piece of Le Mans to you.
By sharing stories and highlightsof the big event, you get a chance
to become part of the Legend ofLe Mans with guests from different
eras of over 100 years of racing.
(00:34):
All right everyone.
Welcome to a live eveningwith the legend tonight.
We have an opportunity to bring a pieceof Le Mans to you sharing in the Legend
of Le Mans with guests from differenteras of over 100 years of racing.
And as your host, I'm delighted tointroduce Harley Clarkston, a notable
figure in the Motorsports community.
Known for successful racing careerwith the Ferrari factory team and
(00:58):
North American Racing team, Nat inthe 1970s, becoming the youngest.
Exclusive authorized Ferrari dealer inthe US at the age of 26, but did you
know that he played a pivotal role insustaining and advancing the Mirage racing
team's legacy at the 24 hours of Le Mansduring the 1970s in 1975 following Gulf?
(01:18):
Oil's withdrawal fromInternational Motorsport.
Harley acquired the Mirage teamfrom John Wire and operating under
his company Grand Touring Cars.
He relocated the team to Arizonaand continued to Field Mirage
prototypes at Le Mans through the 1970s.
Under his leadership, the Mirage carsconsistently performed well at Le Mans,
never finishing outside of the top 10.
(01:39):
And Harley's commitment ensuedthat Mirage remained a competitive
force in endurance racing during atransformative period in the sport.
As a result, he was also recognized asmember number one of the International
Club de Piot in 2012, highlighting hissignificant contributions to Motorsport.
And he's with us here tonightto recount some of that story.
(02:00):
And with that, I'm your hostcrew chief Eric from the Motoring
Podcast Network, welcoming everyoneto this evening with a legend.
So Harley, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
Pleasure being here.
Alright, Harley.
Before we get into the Mirage story,earlier today there was a presentation
that the folks here at the SioneFoundation enjoyed about Luigi Chinetti
(02:22):
and his involvement with Lamonts.
And as we mentioned in the introduction,you are also part of that story.
So to kick things off and lead usinto your Lamont journey, briefly
tell us about the early racingdays with Nat, the and Ferrari.
Go back farther.
My, uh.
Father had sent me to Culver MilitaryAcademy in Indiana in my eighth
(02:42):
grade year because I had a caseof terminal telephone eyes with
girls, and that was 19 59, 19 60.
Only first classmen orseniors had a television.
So the Plebes, which I was one, allwe did for our hours off usually read
magazines, and I had my road and tracks.
(03:03):
I first started writing Mr. Connetbecause my heroes were Dan Gurney, Phil
Hill, I. And I'd noticed that all ofthese Americans had driven for Mr. Cnet,
Nat, and I'm sure you've, you've heardearlier that he had won Le Mans the 24 hours
of Le Mans two times pre-war in Alpha and.
(03:26):
And the third time he won, it was in 1946.
That was after that, misunderstandingswith the Germans and the French.
And so he won the first race,post-war driving 23 hours himself
because his co-driver, LordShelton, was drunk on cognac.
So this is a guy.
It drove 23 hours and won the 24hours of Le Mansr himself in a Ferrari.
(03:52):
So that was the relationshipbetween Ferrari and Kennet and
Ferrari only wanted to go racing.
Kennet said, you build me thecars, 'cause I have a lot of rich
quote customers in California.
So built on that called,called California.
Super America, America,whatever, and I'll sell 'em.
(04:12):
So that was the relationship betweenCNET and it worked out pretty well.
I think I wrote for three years orsomething and I, and I got really
'cause of road and track versed onsuspensions and what was happening and I
was just kept on writing all this stuffto him, never getting anything back.
Never really expecting to get anythingback until my junior year, I think,
(04:34):
and I got a letter back from him.
By that time I was asking questionslike, well, what happened to
Phil, you know, at Lamont?
Why did Jean to be in, didn'tdo something or whatever.
So I got a letter back and he said.
Come to Greenwich, Connecticut.
Oh, I was in New York at that point.
So I went there and I methim for the first time.
(04:54):
And you know, he asked if I had hadany racing or anything like that.
And at that point I said,oh, just motorcycles.
And he said, okay.
I. He said, well, if you come over toItaly to Monza, Ferrari has a driving
school at Monza, I'll sponsor you.
And they were Formula Two cars.
Now, I had never driven a Formula two carbefore and there were people that had just
(05:17):
graduated like Jackie Icks and Derek Bell.
And so it was, um, a realeye-opening experience.
I was incredibly fast for thefirst lap, and then I usually
went off, but I was hooked.
And at that point, Mr.
Canadian was always, you know,say, okay, so, you know, you showed
some good reactions, but you'renot concentrated hard enough.
(05:40):
Never really understood what that wasuntil two, three years later afterwards.
So all through that, um, Igraduated and then went to college.
And in college got my license,my SCCA license through Mr.
Connet, but it was up inConnecticut at that point, and
I was at touring in New Orleans.
(06:01):
He provided me a Ferri 2 75GTB that I raised, and I still
think I have the lap record atLimerock and B production in that.
So it was that sort of relationshipand that continued through
my last two years in college.
I had a real falling out with my father.
And so I had to, uh, pay my tuition.
(06:24):
So I said to Mr. Connet, I, isthere anything I can do in the
summer or anything like that?
Thankfully in New Orleans, and thedrinking age was 18 at that point,
another big plus for me ended upbeing a bartender at Pete Fountain's.
And at the same time, Mr. Connet wouldsend me a used Ferrari to sell it.
And he said, what I want you to do is.
(06:45):
You sell the car.
This is how much I want for the car,and you send all the money to me.
And I said, okay.
Yes sir, I will.
Well, I said, Mr. Kennedy, I,I've never sold a car before.
Said, well, you figure it out.
I was figuring it out.
And uh, this guy calls very well known.
I. Man in New Orleans.
He said, uh, I saw your ad.I'd like to see this car.
(07:06):
It was a 2 52 plus two Ferrari.
And I said, yes sir.Um, I'll bring it over.
He said, yeah, bring it over.
I just wanna tell you that Luigi calledme and told me I should buy this car.
I. I went, thanks.
I drove over and I had all the paperworkand I had all this other stuff and he
said, okay, how much do you want for it?
I think it was $5,500.
(07:27):
And I said, $5,500.
He said, okay.
Do you want me to make out the checkto you or how do you wanna do that?
So I said, just send it Mr. Kti, please.
So that was his big test.
That was Mr. CTI's test, which I passed.
So then he continued.
Send more cars to me and I got toknow the car business pretty well.
(07:47):
By that time, after college,I went into the military.
I came out and on the GI Bill,I uh, went to law school.
My first year back, I guess youwould say, I was in law school,
a freshman first year law.
And so he asked me if I said, I'dreally like to race if I could.
(08:08):
And he said, okay, well whydon't you go race Daytona then
you can race for me at Daytona.
And that was pretty exciting.
And so Ronnie Bucknam was my co-driverwho's a pretty famous American driver.
He drove for Ford at Le Mans and very,very good driver and, and he won Honda
Formula One's first race in Formula One.
(08:31):
So he was really good.
Impatient.
Could have been drunk, I'm not sure,but we're doing really well and I was
picking up my lap times and everything.
About three o'clock in the morning,the left front wheel came off
the car while I was driving.
Everybody said at that point it was justlucky that the left front wheel came
off 'cause it was the right front wheel.
(08:53):
I'd probably be inPompano Beach right now.
At that point there was atDaytona, there was no lights.
I mean there's some lights on the track.
But not a lot of light, not like theinfield is now or anything like that.
So there's sparks and I went intothe infield and then I walked back
across the grass into the pits.
(09:14):
Mr. Cane looked at me andsaid, where's the car?
And I was going, uh,well, it's over there.
What happened?
I said, well, the wheel came off.
And he says to me, just dead serious,the steering wheel or the tire?
I said, Mr. Kade, it was a tire.
The wheel.
Okay.
Go sit over there.
And at that point, Dan Gurney,my hero was racing a five 12
(09:35):
s 1970 with Chuck Parsons.
I go back into the pits and I'msitting there and Dan comes in and
I'd met him really for the first time.
He was a very big man.
I mean, he was huge, buthe also had huge hands.
And I remember I came into the pits.
And he was pissed.
The door of the five 12 flew openthe whole shift, along with the shift
(09:59):
knob itself came flying into the pits.
And I mean, I saw it coming andducked, almost yelled grenade, and
this thing, bang, smashed everything.
He said something, I don't rememberwhat it was, and he gets out of the
car and then Parsons goes, looksin and says, well, it's screwed.
He had ripped the whole shift,linkage everything out of the car.
(10:20):
So that was the first timeI got to meet Dan Gurney.
So let's fast forward a little bit.
So you finally get to lamont behind thewheel of a Ferrari five 12 long tail.
And you told me a story earlier thatI think the crowd would really enjoy,
which was your story about PedroRodriguez down the straightaway.
So you wanna share that with them?
I think it's a fun little anecdote.
So Pedro Rodriguez was my drivinginstructor when I was getting my license.
(10:43):
But, and that was when, I think Iwas 16 years old, or 17, I guess,
you know, because I would go upwith Connet, go up to Elkhart Lake,
and he would be racing for Connetin the Canam and stuff like that.
And I got to know him.
He was great.
I mean, he was intense.
Would call me gringo.
I was, when I say a piece ofwork, really a piece of work.
But he was very, very good.
(11:04):
And so when I raced at Daytona.
Pedro had called me over.
I saw him, he introduced me to John Wire.
That's how I met John Wire.
There's, anyway, there's kind offamous picture of me sitting there
and kind of looking down at him andhe's looking up at me and he's has
his hands together and sort of likeexplaining stuff to me and what he
(11:25):
was saying was, you stay green, go.
In your lane?
I pass.
I pass, I pass.
So that was Pedro at Le Mansr in 1970.
I was driving a five 12 long tail.
The same way that thiscar is, this is nine 17.
Obviously it was a five12 s, but a long tail and.
It was raining, it was pissing with rain,and unlike this car re decided it would be
(11:51):
really cool to put the rear view mirror upabove your head and then cut a hole in the
back so that you would look in the roof.
The theory was you could lookup and see this behind you.
Well, that was all great.
Except it was raining, so allof the water was coming in.
The wind wiper was at thatpoint, difficult Ferrari.
It was going like mad, but it waslike three inches off the windshield
(12:15):
because of the aerodynamics.
So it was going crazy.
I'm looking down, all the water'sgoing and the battery's over here.
I don't think, oh, this is just great.
And so I'm going down the Mulan,which at that point was four point.
Eight miles.
Very daunting.
The first time you do it, you arewatching your RPM and it's up where
it's supposed to be, but it just goeson and on and on and on, you know?
(12:42):
And you hear every littlebit of noise, everything.
And the thing is screaming at speedsof an excess of 230 miles an hour.
Yeah.
I was doing 2 28, Pedro was doing 2 37.
So it's raining, as I said, and thereason they call it the Mosan Strait is
the town of Mosan is down at the end.
If you just went straight,you go right through the town.
(13:04):
Well then there's a hardright corner at the end.
I'm going down and I'm thinking atthis point I. There's no human alive
that's going as fast as I am becauseI was gripping the wheel like you're,
you're not supposed to be doing.
I was rigid and I was talking to myselfsaying, I have the wheel straight.
I'm not moving.
And the car was aquaplaning andit was like, and so I'm looking
(13:27):
through, this would be rear viewmirror and I see these blinking
lights, you know, they're coming in.
I'm thinking, what the hell?
And so they come up closerand I see it's a golf Porsche.
I. And it comes up andhere's little Pedro.
It's like down like this.
And as he drives by, he goesand just motors right by me.
So I don't know if you've everbeen kicked in the nuts before,
(13:50):
but that's what I felt like and soI'm wasn't supposed to say that.
You're good.
Okay.
I lost about, I don't know, 500 RPMIcome into the pits, it's rained fog.
Gary's there going, and theItalians are going like this.
And I pull in and I tell Fogger hewas the engineer and the team manager
(14:11):
and everything else that it washaving a problem with the gearbox.
I was jumping out at fifthunless I was on it all the time.
So I told him, it's acambio, you know that?
And Mr.
K's sitting there withhis stupid looking hat on.
It's a rain hat kind of.
And looked, he looked like cso, honestly.
I mean, I loved the guy, but helooked like Inspector cso, the,
(14:33):
and he had this beige aqua raincoaton, and he's sitting there and you
know, I mean, I never understoodthe Italian aristocracy, whether it
was Ferrari or whether it was Kitty.
At Alpha, they wear a belt and suspenders,which never understood, never do.
But anyway, so the theorywas, and I come over to him.
(14:55):
And I go, yes.
And he looks at me, he looksat me in the eyes, and then he
grabs me By the, your collar?
Yeah.
On my driving suit.
And pulls me really close aboutthis far and he looks at me in
the eyes and he goes, Pedro.
And I go, and then he just walks over.
So that was, that was Pedro.
And this car was racing at the same time.
(15:15):
We're gonna get more intothis car as we go along.
Yeah.
So after your whole adventure at Ferrari,which was a beautiful relationship
that you had, especially being anauthorized dealer here in the States,
and it motivated you to acquire Mirage,what was the impetus for that decision?
What made you get involved in that?
Going from driver to now team owner, whatdid you envision for Mirage's future?
(15:35):
I did go to law school.
I did graduate and I also got mymaster's in constitutional law and
then reality set in, and I had to gowork at a law firm, which was a huge
law firm in downtown Chicago calledBaker McKinsey, which is a gigantic law
firm, and that was definitely no fun.
It was reality and everythingyou've heard about Chicago is true.
(15:58):
And I was a constitutional lawyer and I'djust come back in the military and they
were saying, well, you've gotta representthis Alderman and Alderman in Chicago.
It's a fiefdom.
So you got eight different areas inChicago, all downtown, and they're
supposed to represent this groupof, uh, eight blocks, 10 blocks.
Well, at the same time, they wereholding up all of the store owners
(16:19):
for protection, and I was supposedto be representing this guy well.
I told him I wasn't gonna do that.
So I just couldn't see myselfpracticing law for the next 20 years
or 30 years and call up Mr. Connetand I said, I can't do this anymore.
And he said, okay, probablyI have to talk to Ferrari.
Okay.
I. He talked to Ferrari and they said,we'll give you a dealership, but it has
(16:42):
to be west of the Mississippi River.
Well, I'd gone east to get mymaster's in constitutional law and
I didn't like the weather there.
I hated Chicago weather,snow, and all that stuff.
So I looked, and California wasdefinitely out of the question.
So I looked at Arizona, I thought.
This is great.
It's got fantastic airport, international.
There's nobody living there.
(17:03):
It's got roads you can go crazy on.
And so I said I'd like to have Arizona.
So he gave me Arizona,Colorado, and New Mexico.
And then the other thing thatthey did, which was fantastic was
they knew that I didn't have anymoney to speak of Ferrari and kti.
Funded me for the first three years.
(17:24):
In other words, paid my floor plan.
They would send the cars out and then Iwould sell them and everything like that.
So we're done with Ferrari?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
During that time, I continued torace for cnet, and as I said, Pedro
Rodriguez, my driving instructor,he had introduced me to John Wire.
But all during this time, I'd nevergot to physically see the golf
(17:47):
team cars, the GT forties running.
Actually the first time I saw 10 75, whichis the first Double Le Mans winning car.
It won in 1968 and 69 68.
It won with Pedro Rodriguez, uh, andin 69 it was Jackie Icks, which ended
up to be the closest race and mostfamous race at the 24 hours of LeMans.
(18:08):
So this was the car.
Knew Derrick Bell by thatpoint really, really well.
And so he had been racing mirage and afterthe 68, 69, he was racing for Ferrari.
Then in 1970, the FIAcame out with his formula.
It was a five year formulaand you had to make 25 cars.
(18:30):
Porsche made 25 cars.
Ferrari made 25 cars, but that wasFerrari because the last eight cars,
the tires were wood and there was,you know, it was Ferrari and Porsche
of course had everything down.
So that's how that happened.
And so it just continued to flow.
And when I, I. Who wasstill racing for Ferrari.
John Wire had called, I mean, Irespected the heck out of him just
(18:55):
because he, he approached Le Mansr theway that you should approach it.
You've got to be able to manage yourdrivers, but wire was just a master.
Ferrari could never figure it out.
John made sure that the driversstayed within maybe a second.
Every lap, and they could go faster, butthey were never allowed to go faster.
(19:16):
They had to stay each of them.
And that was because you wouldbuild up enough time that when
you made a pit stop and you had tofix something, you had 20 minutes.
Or 30 minutes, you wouldn't lose the lead.
And that happened when he won Le Mans, hewon the World Championship for Porsche.
He won the World Championship for Ford.
(19:37):
When Ford didn't do it, you know,with the GT forties, he was a
master tactician, but he kept to anabsolute, this is the way you do it.
And I learned from that and hewas my mentor as far as learning
how to manage a car, managedrivers and everything like that.
So John called and said, Harley Gulf Oil,you all don't remember, but maybe you do.
(20:01):
They got into a lot of problemsalong with Texaco, with the US
government because they were goingdown to South America, both of them.
And paying off their oilministers, whatever country
it was for drilling rights.
And that was a big no-no.
So TCO was less, but apparently GulfOil was pretty blatant about it.
(20:24):
So their lawyers said.
To them, you've gotta go low profile.
Well, it's kind of hard to go low profilewhen you've got a baby blue, an orange
race car, and you're also sponsoringall the tennis tournaments in the United
States, and you're also sponsoring allthe golf tournaments in the United States.
So John said, well, they haveto sell the team in the cars.
(20:45):
Okay, well that's cool.
That's really cool.
You need to buy 'em.
I said, well, John, and at thatpoint he was in grass in France.
He had just retired.
And so this was the longest phone call.
And I said, well, John, I'm thinkingto myself, are you kidding me?
And, and I said, no, that's great.
Thank you so much.
I, it is a real compliment, but John,I, I just, I don't have the experience.
Yes, you do.
(21:05):
Well, I don't have that sort of money.
Yes, you do.
Oh, I don't, I don't think I do.
And so this went back and forth.
I said, I don't wanna embarrass youand I don't wanna embarrass myself.
He said.
Just make the bloodyoffer a lot more colorful.
I said, okay, if I go and I call thesepeople and I buy it, I'm not gonna buy it
unless you promise that you will consult.
(21:27):
And he said, absolutely, I'll be there.
And then John Horsman said,I'll move to the United States.
And I said, okay.
So I called up gentleman,I was supposed to call.
And I said, Mr. I think his name's Kelsey.
Mrs. Harley Collection.
Oh, yes, Mr. Collection.
We were looking forward to your calling.
How much are you offering?
And this was the whole team.
That was all of the trademark rights.
(21:48):
That was all of the equipment.
Two race cars.
Ready to go a transporter,which we named the Queen Mary.
I think three mechanicswere thrown into it.
And John Horsman.
So I offered ridiculous amount of money.
50 bucks I heard.
Yeah.
Well no, 75.
That was ridiculous.
It was, I think it was $200,000.
(22:11):
No, maybe it was 120 in 1970s dollars.
Yeah.
$75. Yeah.
So I buy, Mirage came.
I was racing at Le Mansin 1975 for Mr. Connet.
I'm there with five cars.
Kennedy has basically representingthe factory because that 75 was going
to be a fuel run, so you had to havethese cars yet the most fuel efficient.
(22:35):
In other words, what they did wasthey cut down a 60 gallon fuel tank
down to 40 gallons and cars had togo slower, which meant also it had
to be more aerodynamically efficient.
And you could stretch the mileage andstill keep the speed up with Connet.
He didn't have any of these prototypesor the Group six cars, which the Mirage
(22:57):
were, he was racing 365 boxer and threeday tos, and I was in a 3 0 8 GT four.
And so he got into a real contestwith one of the a CO supervisors, I
should say, uh, a technical inspection.
And they had put the 3 0 8 GT four ingroup five, which is a 9 35 Porsche,
(23:23):
and he said, that's impossiblebecause they've made enough cars.
Now, this Frenchman said, well,Ferrari never notified us of that.
And Kennet went, well, I canget him to notify you right now.
And he said, no, it's too late.
You can't race the car.
You can't race it in this.
So he said, if I can't race thiscar, then I'm gonna pull the cars.
Well, it got ugly.
Kennet finally said, well,I'm gonna pull all the cars.
(23:45):
And the Frenchman said.
You do it.
So he pulled all the cars.
I went to Mr. Canadian, I said,can I go over to the Mirage team?
And he said, yeah, go, go, go.
And so I was over in my Ferri driving suitand then they won the 24 hours of Loma.
That was where then I brought 'em home.
I. So that's a very important pointthat you bring up because this weekend
(24:06):
coincides with the 50th anniversary ofthe Mirage GR Eights, finishing the 1975
Le Mans, which you just mentioned winning.
And there's some other notablestats here that you shared with me.
So six time Le Mans winner JackieHicks behind the wheel, a
second win and five time winner.
Derrick.
Bell, first time Winford, Joad, et cetera.
There's a whole list of famousnames at Mirage at this point, and
(24:29):
you're joining the team and you'regetting more and more involved.
Everybody that is famous in yourmind drove for John Wire and
he, he was called Death Ray.
He would talk to his drivers andthey had to be absolutely loyal.
And when I say loyal, because hewould go and he never did it to me.
But I could see how he could do it.
He would go and when they, he wasgiving a driver test for a potential
(24:53):
team driver, and it would be at Brand'sHatch, it could be at Silverstone,
and he would be hiding in the bushes.
And I swear to God, Vern Schoentold me that, and he's Australian,
so he's really colorful language.
And he said, I was going,I, and I screwed it up.
And I looked up and therewas death Ray looking at me.
And at that point, again,was important to remember.
(25:14):
That when I drove the 24 hours ofLe Mans and when Mario, who drove for
me, drove the 24 hours of Le Mans in82, it was the old 24 hours of Le Mans.
You only had two drivers.
Now you have three drivers,and it's a sprint because.
The course has been cut up and you'vegot so many chicanes have been put in
and you never get up to a lot of speed.
(25:36):
They did it for safety, apparently, andthen you stay involved, like you said,
through the seventies, into the eightieswith Mario Andretti and things like that.
So let's talk about yourtime as a team owner.
What sticks out and stands out to you assome of the memorable moments at Mirage?
Learning from John Wire, all of thedrivers loved him and respected him.
He was such a figure.
(25:57):
It was Mr. Wire, it was thisthat, you know, and always, and
it was baffled me how I evergot into that position with him.
I brought him to Scottsdale andhe was just world of knowledge.
And so basically the dealwas with John and John.
I said, I'll get the sponsorship.
You run the cars, and that was the deal.
(26:17):
75. Last time you drove at Le Mans,did you retire from Motorsport
at that point as a driver?
Yes.
Okay.
So full-time team owner in that.
So when you reflect back on Mirage'slegacy and all the time you spent
there, how did that change you?
You mean as far as theway I look at the French?
Well, how you look at Motorsport, right?
Because it's a different lens whenyou're a team owner and a team
principal versus being a driver, right?
(26:38):
Yeah.
More politics.
More bureaucracy, moreto do more, more, more.
Well, I think.
Having driven there and been a driver.
Going back to Le Mansr, it's a love haterelationship and I mean really hate and
whoever the twisted, really demented,A CO member that came up with said,
okay, well we have 12 hour races.
(27:00):
Why don't we have a 24 hour race?
I know so many Americans that.
Have been looking for this jerksgrave just to beat it to death
because it's, it's one of thosedeals you just keep on going 'cause
it's heartbreak until the very last.
You never know.
We were leading the 79 raceup until the 23rd hour.
(27:20):
Again, it was pissingvein and we fell out.
Derek was driving for me then.
And the 9 36 s, which were mynemesis because we'd won in 75 and
I came in second in 76 behind them.
And then 77, I thought Iwas really gonna get 'em.
'cause we were using rno.
Turbocharge Miller came in second again,and that was the second most famous race.
(27:43):
That's when.
Went crazy and drove with Ley Haywood.
Yeah, yeah.
All that stuff, and UroGenbath and all that continued.
And then with Le Mans, it's a real sickness.
It really is, because if you go andyou're a team owner or a driver, you
just pray that if you're gonna fall out,you fall out in the first two hours,
three hours, because it just sucks tofall out at four o'clock in the morning,
(28:07):
or just when the sun's coming up.
There are things that John.
Would expect of his drivers.
You will do this, you will do that.
Your pit stops are gonna bethis, and if there's a screw up.
And so he was the first manager, Iguess you would say, and he's a legend
of Le Mans that would take notes and Ihave all of his notes, everything.
And take the time it took in the pits,each car in each driver, and then figure
(28:32):
out, came in with a broken whateverand how long it was in the pits.
Also the growth of the tires,you know, which is a big deal.
'cause if you're doing 235miles an hour, the tires grow.
That lifts the car up and thenit gets really ly, you know?
And so it was all of that stuffand the pit stops were down.
I. To half seconds fueling everything andthen the drivers comparison every lap.
(28:57):
And you drivers are drivers.
So, so anyway, I, I learned all ofthat and I learned race management,
which is hugely important to beable to manage everything to make
sure that you've built up enough.
Reserve time with your lap times thatyou've set that you can repair something.
(29:17):
'cause the cars were always breaking.
Unlike today that's going on right now.
It's a sprint race.
You have the Mulan, but then you havetwo of these Chicanes and I doubt
the hypercar are getting up to twohundred and ten, two hundred fifteen.
I mean Porsche's.
This Porsche was actually the 1971Porsche Long Tail, which Laro was driving.
(29:39):
Gerard Laro was driving this car too.
248 miles an hour every lap at night.
That's impressive.
With your legs hanging out up bythe lights, legs short now, but
that's, I, it's, I impressive.
Well, since you mentioned it, andwe promised the audience that we
would talk more about this car,so you got involved in this car,
(29:59):
you competed against this car.
You talked about your racing against PedroRodriguez in the Ferraris and whatnot.
How did you get involved?
In the hippie Porsche, how did you come toown this car and and what drew you to it?
This was a two year deal.
It's 25 cars, 70 and 71.
It went to a new formula, whichwas group six, and that turned
into, it had to be a three literformula one motor, and you could.
(30:24):
Do it open.
You could do a close, but it hadto be a three liter formula, one
base motor before through 1967.
It was bringing yougrace, what you belong.
Anyway, Ford of course,brought 550 horsepower.
Ferrari was 475 horsepowerin the P fours or less.
(30:45):
But that was a difference in mm-hmm.
What, what we were doing.
So my love for Porsches, I mean, Ican tell you everything about the tail
end of a 9 36 or one of these things.
So he motivated me.
Yeah.
You acquired this car, you had itin your possession for a while.
Did you ever get toturn a lap in this car?
And what was it like comparedto the Ferraris that you drove?
(31:06):
John Wire had told me and Horsmanalso, you know, because I always
looked at the five twelves as clunkerscompared to these Porsche and John
Wire said they were built better.
The Germans didn't really care aboutthe drivers, they were expendable.
And he said the Mray, which was the1971 car, was actually pretty good.
He said, but Ferrari decided, whichthey did 'cause it was the end of
(31:29):
the last year, they didn't develop.
The only thing I did was I pretty wellknown for this piece of, again, it's
Arizona had a very good relationship withthe um, Scottsdale Airport management.
'cause I also, I. Fly helicopters.
So I knew them and I asked them all alongthe way, can I test a car on the runway?
And I said, yeah, sure, no problem.
(31:50):
So I tested Formula One carsand everything like that.
Well, I went out in thiscar, we just painted it.
It was everything that I had heardfrom John Wire about Your feet are
hanging out in front of the wheels.
It all came back to me becauseas I accelerated, first of
all, you know, I'm short.
The visual, you know, your sitepicture, you know, you usually
(32:11):
go off the front vendors, stufflike that, or a visual point.
Well, there's nothing.
The way that it's this windshieldis that you can really get a visual
shot at what you're aiming at.
But more than that was, I don'tthink I was doing 60 miles an hour
starting South airport runways.
I don't know if you'veever been on one, but.
They're not like roads.
(32:32):
They're usually cement and stuff.
So you go, boom, boom.
I was getting so much wind throughthe cockpit, through the foot
well, and I was getting dust.
I was getting everything else, andit was like my feet were that far
out and I could feel through mydriving shoes, I could feel coming up.
It was air.
And that is not a good feelingyou wanna have, knowing that the
(32:54):
first thing you're gonna hit ifyou go in nose first is your feet.
That was what was really lethal witha lot of drivers and then also the
fuel deal, so to say, if I got up toa hundred miles an hour, I doubt it.
I doubt it incredibly fast cars.
But I mean, if you made a mistake orsomebody made a mistake for you, guy in
(33:15):
front of you, whatever, lethal, no bueno.
Getting into our final segment here,let's talk a little bit about the future.
So for those of you sitting inthe audience, you're here watching
Le Mans as part of the viewingparty in a couple of weeks.
The Le Mans Classic is happening,that's 24 hours of vintage cars.
Harley.
Do you see Mirage participatingin the classic in the future?
And if so, will you be involved?
(33:35):
Well, they, they already have, they've wonthe GR Sevens, which is the Golf racing
Sevens, so that would be a 1974 car.
We have of the two, there's thenumber 10 car that came in second,
two times well came in third wasSchoen driving in the 1975 Le Mans.
And then second overall is now racing.
(33:58):
Uh, Le Mans Classic.
And the 74 car has won theLamont Classic three times.
So it's a golf Miragewith a Cosworth motor.
So yes, they're very, very good.
And the great thing about it isthat when you go to the classic,
you'll see all of these cars.
You won't see the nineseventeens that much.
(34:18):
I mean, the last time I thinkthat a nine 17 race there was
with Bobby Ra Hall race of nine 17that he owned with Brian Redmond.
Mm-hmm.
And they had exactly the same problemthat wire had with his nine seventeens.
With the aerodynamic changes thatthe inner wheel bearings when
you're running it to get really hot.
(34:40):
And then they seize andwheels come flying off.
Yeah.
That or youth go flying off.
And so they were apparently arguingwith each other and, and to stop.
And it was smart enough, matureenough I guess you'd say.
Say now let's do this again.
So if you ever look at Brian Redmond,you see, you know, he's got all of these
wrinkles around, was baklava, you wearba I should say not the Greek food.
(35:04):
Sorry.
And it's burned.
And that was in a 9 0 8.
Porsche winning the Target Florio in 19.
He ran it in 1973 and Ithink maybe it was 1974.
Same car.
The car was upside down, crashed, andhe was caught fuel tank burst and he was
(35:25):
caught on fire and he was able to crawlout because there was, this is a target
Florida, nobody came for 35 minutes, sothat's why they don't do that anymore.
But I'm just saying howdangerous these cars are.
Pedro died in a five 12.
Mm-hmm.
Same deal.
So the Le Mansr Classic, you know, intalking with really great guy Chris
McAllister, who has a nine 17 Porschethat has a golf car and God knows what
(35:49):
else he drives it just the way it was.
That's the cool thingabout the Le Mansr Classic.
You're gonna see real cars out there.
You'd never see any otherplace driving at Le Mans.
So it, it is reallyexciting, it's really fun.
And as Gerard Roos told me when he broughtme back after I promised I'd never go
back to Le Mans after Le Mans E two and hecalled up You, you've gotta come back,
(36:12):
make you, I don't remember number one.
And I thought it was gonna be another dim.
And I told him that.
And he said, no, no, no, it's okay.
It's okay.
So I came back and I hadn'tbeen to Le Mansr and this was 2011.
He came back and he said, I haveto warn you, the track has changed.
And I said, okay.
For the good or bad, hesaid, it's really bad.
It's really bad.
(36:32):
It's really bad.
I. And then I went and Iwatched, it was like really bad.
Really bad.
Just because, you know, it was themost difficult road race in the world.
Now it's a sprint race.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I mean, you've lost somany factors that went into it
that make it the most difficult andthe race for manufacturers to win.
Well, I guess we'll give thatto the Bergen 24 now, right?
(36:55):
Yeah.
Oh, the old spa.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, so let's talk about Le Mans.
We're here, we're watching the race.
Are you rooting for Ferrari?
Do you have any other projections?
I think it's great that Ferrari won andthey did, and knowing Ferrari as I do,
and I'm sure that you all know enoughthat know that there F1 team is hopeless.
Um, nobody was allowed to work.
(37:18):
None of the engineers,none of the F went in.
No, no.
Uhuh You guys just continued toscrew your things up over and there.
So this was all done by AlphaCorso and so, which is, I guess
you'd say a semi factory team.
Delara built the car and then a of course.
So working, driving and allthese team, and they won in
(37:40):
last year and the year before.
And this year they'rehaving a, a tough time.
I think.
I'm just surprised.
Penske hasn't won.
Uh, they've got four cars and it's avery, very difficult formula because
the only thing that a manufacturer hasis that you have three chassis choices.
You have Multimatic, you have Dara.
(38:02):
Cadillac has picked Dara.
BMW has Dara.
Porsche has Multimatic,which is of course in Canada.
And then all you do isyou put your motor in.
Everybody has the same transmissions.
You can do aerodynamically comes fromDara, or you can have your design guy,
(38:23):
you know, as long as it meets that spec.
Well, you know, this hybrid stuff,it's just, it's so expensive and
I think, you know, to answer yourquestion, who do I want to win?
I'd love to see ASIN Martin winonly because no one is that the
whole team is in Arizona andit's a normally aspirated car.
It's a 6.4 liter, 12 cylinder.
(38:45):
How bad is that?
But of course then you have to dumb itdown to 580 horsepower or whatever it is.
And there are too many regulationsas far as if you have one
team win, whether it's in.
GT three or hypercar, if they win likethree years in a row, well then they
get this BOP selectively served on 'em.
(39:07):
Mm-hmm.
So Ray Hall's had it happen.
So it's a very difficultformula to understand.
I don't like it.
What can I tell you?
I mean, we have it.
We have it in Indy car,and it's just a joke.
I'll give you an example with thesehypercar, as they call 'em, the drive
shafts have torque meters on 'em, andthe torque meter is to make sure that
(39:28):
you're putting out 528 horsepower.
Well, that's really great.
But if you go off the road, this torquemeter, one wheel is gonna go crazy.
Well, what happens is they have home base,and so they'll sit there and the minute
they see it, they go, and you lose 200horsepower on the street, gimme a break.
Let's go racing.
So that's my opinion on it.
(39:50):
All right.
Well, Harley, last question.
What's next for you?
You're still very muchinvolved in Motorsport.
What's next?
Anything coming up you wanna share?
No, I'm just desperately looking for fun.
Oh yeah.
No, it's, um, I like vintage racing.
It's really fun, but you get to the agewhere you're not as good as you think
(40:11):
you should be, or wanna admit, and I'm,I'm there, you know, and so I have fun.
Now, if I go and buy an Alpha GTA.
And you go out and smoke Porschesall day, you know, or a cobra or
something that, you know, that's great.
Vintage racing for me should be, orany professional driver, you should
be able to take a black and whitepicture of that car that you're, you're
driving, and then take a pick of blackand white picture of you driving.
(40:34):
And if it isn't all twisted up and onewheel up, you know you're cheating.
Because it, that's theway that the cars were.
Well, on that note, folks, we've had theprivilege of revisiting a fascinating
chapter in endurance racing historythrough the experiences of Harley
Clarkston from taking the reins of theMirage team after golf oil's exit, and
guiding them through a remarkable runof successes at Le Mans, including the win
(40:56):
in 75 and podium finishes in 76 and 77.
Harley's vision and leadership helped.
Preserve one of the sport'smost iconic privateer efforts.
His dedication not only extendedthe Mirage legacy, but also
embodied the entrepreneurialspirit that defines motorsports.
Golden age.
God.
I love him.
I love him.
I know, right?
I absolutely love it.
(41:17):
With that, we hope you enjoyedthis presentation and look forward
to more evening with a legendthroughout the season, and on behalf
of everyone here, the A-C-O-U-S-Aand those listening at home.
Listening at home, what?
You never told me that.
Oh yeah.
Thank you, Harley.
Oh God.
And that's a wrap.
(41:38):
Thank you.
This episode has been brought to youby the Automobile Club of the West and
the A-C-O-U-S-A from the awe-inspiringspeed demons that have graced the
track to the courageous drivers whohave pushed the limits of endurance.
(42:02):
The 24 hours of Le Mans is anautomotive spectacle like no other.
For over a century the 24 hoursLe Mans has urged manufacturers to
innovate for the benefit of futuremotorists, and it's a celebration of
the relentless pursuit of speed andexcellence in the world of motorsports.
To learn more about or to become a memberof the ACO ussa look no further than
www.Le Mansn.org, click on English in theupper right corner and then click on
(42:27):
the a CO members tab for club offers.
Once you've become a member, you canfollow all the action on the Facebook
group, A-C-O-U-S-A Members Club, andbecome part of the Legend with Future
Evening with the legend meetups.
(42:49):
This episode has been brought to youby Grand Touring Motorsports as part
of our Motoring Podcast network.
For more episodes like this, tune in eachweek for more exciting and educational
content from organizations like TheExotic Car Marketplace, the Motoring
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If you'd like to support GrandTouring Motorsport and the Motoring
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(43:11):
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Please note that the content,opinions and materials presented and
expressed in this episode are thoseof its creator, and this episode has
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If you have any inquiries about thisprogram, please contact the creators
of this episode via email or socialmedia as mentioned in the episode.
Evening With a Legend is a seriesof presentations exclusive to
legends of the famous 24 hoursof Le Mans giving us an opportunity
to bring a piece of Le Mans to you.
By sharing stories and highlightsof the big event, you get a chance
to become part of the Legend ofLe Mans with guests from different
eras of over 100 years of racing.
(00:34):
All right everyone.
Welcome to a live eveningwith the legend tonight.
We have an opportunity to bring a pieceof Le Mans to you sharing in the Legend
of Le Mans with guests from differenteras of over 100 years of racing.
And as your host, I'm delighted tointroduce Harley Clarkston, a notable
figure in the Motorsports community.
Known for successful racing careerwith the Ferrari factory team and
(00:58):
North American Racing team, Nat inthe 1970s, becoming the youngest.
Exclusive authorized Ferrari dealer inthe US at the age of 26, but did you
know that he played a pivotal role insustaining and advancing the Mirage racing
team's legacy at the 24 hours of Le Mansduring the 1970s in 1975 following Gulf?
(01:18):
Oil's withdrawal fromInternational Motorsport.
Harley acquired the Mirage teamfrom John Wire and operating under
his company Grand Touring Cars.
He relocated the team to Arizonaand continued to Field Mirage
prototypes at Le Mans through the 1970s.
Under his leadership, the Mirage carsconsistently performed well at Le Mans,
never finishing outside of the top 10.
(01:39):
And Harley's commitment ensuedthat Mirage remained a competitive
force in endurance racing during atransformative period in the sport.
As a result, he was also recognized asmember number one of the International
Club de Piot in 2012, highlighting hissignificant contributions to Motorsport.
And he's with us here tonightto recount some of that story.
(02:00):
And with that, I'm your hostcrew chief Eric from the Motoring
Podcast Network, welcoming everyoneto this evening with a legend.
So Harley, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
Pleasure being here.
Alright, Harley.
Before we get into the Mirage story,earlier today there was a presentation
that the folks here at the SioneFoundation enjoyed about Luigi Chinetti
(02:22):
and his involvement with Lamonts.
And as we mentioned in the introduction,you are also part of that story.
So to kick things off and lead usinto your Lamont journey, briefly
tell us about the early racingdays with Nat, the and Ferrari.
Go back farther.
My, uh.
Father had sent me to Culver MilitaryAcademy in Indiana in my eighth
(02:42):
grade year because I had a caseof terminal telephone eyes with
girls, and that was 19 59, 19 60.
Only first classmen orseniors had a television.
So the Plebes, which I was one, allwe did for our hours off usually read
magazines, and I had my road and tracks.
(03:03):
I first started writing Mr. Connetbecause my heroes were Dan Gurney, Phil
Hill, I. And I'd noticed that all ofthese Americans had driven for Mr. Cnet,
Nat, and I'm sure you've, you've heardearlier that he had won Le Mans the 24 hours
of Le Mans two times pre-war in Alpha and.
(03:26):
And the third time he won, it was in 1946.
That was after that, misunderstandingswith the Germans and the French.
And so he won the first race,post-war driving 23 hours himself
because his co-driver, LordShelton, was drunk on cognac.
So this is a guy.
It drove 23 hours and won the 24hours of Le Mansr himself in a Ferrari.
(03:52):
So that was the relationshipbetween Ferrari and Kennet and
Ferrari only wanted to go racing.
Kennet said, you build me thecars, 'cause I have a lot of rich
quote customers in California.
So built on that called,called California.
Super America, America,whatever, and I'll sell 'em.
(04:12):
So that was the relationship betweenCNET and it worked out pretty well.
I think I wrote for three years orsomething and I, and I got really
'cause of road and track versed onsuspensions and what was happening and I
was just kept on writing all this stuffto him, never getting anything back.
Never really expecting to get anythingback until my junior year, I think,
(04:34):
and I got a letter back from him.
By that time I was asking questionslike, well, what happened to
Phil, you know, at Lamont?
Why did Jean to be in, didn'tdo something or whatever.
So I got a letter back and he said.
Come to Greenwich, Connecticut.
Oh, I was in New York at that point.
So I went there and I methim for the first time.
(04:54):
And you know, he asked if I had hadany racing or anything like that.
And at that point I said,oh, just motorcycles.
And he said, okay.
I. He said, well, if you come over toItaly to Monza, Ferrari has a driving
school at Monza, I'll sponsor you.
And they were Formula Two cars.
Now, I had never driven a Formula two carbefore and there were people that had just
(05:17):
graduated like Jackie Icks and Derek Bell.
And so it was, um, a realeye-opening experience.
I was incredibly fast for thefirst lap, and then I usually
went off, but I was hooked.
And at that point, Mr.
Canadian was always, you know,say, okay, so, you know, you showed
some good reactions, but you'renot concentrated hard enough.
(05:40):
Never really understood what that wasuntil two, three years later afterwards.
So all through that, um, Igraduated and then went to college.
And in college got my license,my SCCA license through Mr.
Connet, but it was up inConnecticut at that point, and
I was at touring in New Orleans.
(06:01):
He provided me a Ferri 2 75GTB that I raised, and I still
think I have the lap record atLimerock and B production in that.
So it was that sort of relationshipand that continued through
my last two years in college.
I had a real falling out with my father.
And so I had to, uh, pay my tuition.
(06:24):
So I said to Mr. Connet, I, isthere anything I can do in the
summer or anything like that?
Thankfully in New Orleans, and thedrinking age was 18 at that point,
another big plus for me ended upbeing a bartender at Pete Fountain's.
And at the same time, Mr. Connet wouldsend me a used Ferrari to sell it.
And he said, what I want you to do is.
(06:45):
You sell the car.
This is how much I want for the car,and you send all the money to me.
And I said, okay.
Yes sir, I will.
Well, I said, Mr. Kennedy, I,I've never sold a car before.
Said, well, you figure it out.
I was figuring it out.
And uh, this guy calls very well known.
I. Man in New Orleans.
He said, uh, I saw your ad.I'd like to see this car.
(07:06):
It was a 2 52 plus two Ferrari.
And I said, yes sir.Um, I'll bring it over.
He said, yeah, bring it over.
I just wanna tell you that Luigi calledme and told me I should buy this car.
I. I went, thanks.
I drove over and I had all the paperworkand I had all this other stuff and he
said, okay, how much do you want for it?
I think it was $5,500.
(07:27):
And I said, $5,500.
He said, okay.
Do you want me to make out the checkto you or how do you wanna do that?
So I said, just send it Mr. Kti, please.
So that was his big test.
That was Mr. CTI's test, which I passed.
So then he continued.
Send more cars to me and I got toknow the car business pretty well.
(07:47):
By that time, after college,I went into the military.
I came out and on the GI Bill,I uh, went to law school.
My first year back, I guess youwould say, I was in law school,
a freshman first year law.
And so he asked me if I said, I'dreally like to race if I could.
(08:08):
And he said, okay, well whydon't you go race Daytona then
you can race for me at Daytona.
And that was pretty exciting.
And so Ronnie Bucknam was my co-driverwho's a pretty famous American driver.
He drove for Ford at Le Mans and very,very good driver and, and he won Honda
Formula One's first race in Formula One.
(08:31):
So he was really good.
Impatient.
Could have been drunk, I'm not sure,but we're doing really well and I was
picking up my lap times and everything.
About three o'clock in the morning,the left front wheel came off
the car while I was driving.
Everybody said at that point it was justlucky that the left front wheel came
off 'cause it was the right front wheel.
(08:53):
I'd probably be inPompano Beach right now.
At that point there was atDaytona, there was no lights.
I mean there's some lights on the track.
But not a lot of light, not like theinfield is now or anything like that.
So there's sparks and I went intothe infield and then I walked back
across the grass into the pits.
(09:14):
Mr. Cane looked at me andsaid, where's the car?
And I was going, uh,well, it's over there.
What happened?
I said, well, the wheel came off.
And he says to me, just dead serious,the steering wheel or the tire?
I said, Mr. Kade, it was a tire.
The wheel.
Okay.
Go sit over there.
And at that point, Dan Gurney,my hero was racing a five 12
(09:35):
s 1970 with Chuck Parsons.
I go back into the pits and I'msitting there and Dan comes in and
I'd met him really for the first time.
He was a very big man.
I mean, he was huge, buthe also had huge hands.
And I remember I came into the pits.
And he was pissed.
The door of the five 12 flew openthe whole shift, along with the shift
(09:59):
knob itself came flying into the pits.
And I mean, I saw it coming andducked, almost yelled grenade, and
this thing, bang, smashed everything.
He said something, I don't rememberwhat it was, and he gets out of the
car and then Parsons goes, looksin and says, well, it's screwed.
He had ripped the whole shift,linkage everything out of the car.
(10:20):
So that was the first timeI got to meet Dan Gurney.
So let's fast forward a little bit.
So you finally get to lamont behind thewheel of a Ferrari five 12 long tail.
And you told me a story earlier thatI think the crowd would really enjoy,
which was your story about PedroRodriguez down the straightaway.
So you wanna share that with them?
I think it's a fun little anecdote.
So Pedro Rodriguez was my drivinginstructor when I was getting my license.
(10:43):
But, and that was when, I think Iwas 16 years old, or 17, I guess,
you know, because I would go upwith Connet, go up to Elkhart Lake,
and he would be racing for Connetin the Canam and stuff like that.
And I got to know him.
He was great.
I mean, he was intense.
Would call me gringo.
I was, when I say a piece ofwork, really a piece of work.
But he was very, very good.
(11:04):
And so when I raced at Daytona.
Pedro had called me over.
I saw him, he introduced me to John Wire.
That's how I met John Wire.
There's, anyway, there's kind offamous picture of me sitting there
and kind of looking down at him andhe's looking up at me and he's has
his hands together and sort of likeexplaining stuff to me and what he
(11:25):
was saying was, you stay green, go.
In your lane?
I pass.
I pass, I pass.
So that was Pedro at Le Mansr in 1970.
I was driving a five 12 long tail.
The same way that thiscar is, this is nine 17.
Obviously it was a five12 s, but a long tail and.
It was raining, it was pissing with rain,and unlike this car re decided it would be
(11:51):
really cool to put the rear view mirror upabove your head and then cut a hole in the
back so that you would look in the roof.
The theory was you could lookup and see this behind you.
Well, that was all great.
Except it was raining, so allof the water was coming in.
The wind wiper was at thatpoint, difficult Ferrari.
It was going like mad, but it waslike three inches off the windshield
(12:15):
because of the aerodynamics.
So it was going crazy.
I'm looking down, all the water'sgoing and the battery's over here.
I don't think, oh, this is just great.
And so I'm going down the Mulan,which at that point was four point.
Eight miles.
Very daunting.
The first time you do it, you arewatching your RPM and it's up where
it's supposed to be, but it just goeson and on and on and on, you know?
(12:42):
And you hear every littlebit of noise, everything.
And the thing is screaming at speedsof an excess of 230 miles an hour.
Yeah.
I was doing 2 28, Pedro was doing 2 37.
So it's raining, as I said, and thereason they call it the Mosan Strait is
the town of Mosan is down at the end.
If you just went straight,you go right through the town.
(13:04):
Well then there's a hardright corner at the end.
I'm going down and I'm thinking atthis point I. There's no human alive
that's going as fast as I am becauseI was gripping the wheel like you're,
you're not supposed to be doing.
I was rigid and I was talking to myselfsaying, I have the wheel straight.
I'm not moving.
And the car was aquaplaning andit was like, and so I'm looking
(13:27):
through, this would be rear viewmirror and I see these blinking
lights, you know, they're coming in.
I'm thinking, what the hell?
And so they come up closerand I see it's a golf Porsche.
I. And it comes up andhere's little Pedro.
It's like down like this.
And as he drives by, he goesand just motors right by me.
So I don't know if you've everbeen kicked in the nuts before,
(13:50):
but that's what I felt like and soI'm wasn't supposed to say that.
You're good.
Okay.
I lost about, I don't know, 500 RPMIcome into the pits, it's rained fog.
Gary's there going, and theItalians are going like this.
And I pull in and I tell Fogger hewas the engineer and the team manager
(14:11):
and everything else that it washaving a problem with the gearbox.
I was jumping out at fifthunless I was on it all the time.
So I told him, it's acambio, you know that?
And Mr.
K's sitting there withhis stupid looking hat on.
It's a rain hat kind of.
And looked, he looked like cso, honestly.
I mean, I loved the guy, but helooked like Inspector cso, the,
(14:33):
and he had this beige aqua raincoaton, and he's sitting there and you
know, I mean, I never understoodthe Italian aristocracy, whether it
was Ferrari or whether it was Kitty.
At Alpha, they wear a belt and suspenders,which never understood, never do.
But anyway, so the theorywas, and I come over to him.
(14:55):
And I go, yes.
And he looks at me, he looksat me in the eyes, and then he
grabs me By the, your collar?
Yeah.
On my driving suit.
And pulls me really close aboutthis far and he looks at me in
the eyes and he goes, Pedro.
And I go, and then he just walks over.
So that was, that was Pedro.
And this car was racing at the same time.
(15:15):
We're gonna get more intothis car as we go along.
Yeah.
So after your whole adventure at Ferrari,which was a beautiful relationship
that you had, especially being anauthorized dealer here in the States,
and it motivated you to acquire Mirage,what was the impetus for that decision?
What made you get involved in that?
Going from driver to now team owner, whatdid you envision for Mirage's future?
(15:35):
I did go to law school.
I did graduate and I also got mymaster's in constitutional law and
then reality set in, and I had to gowork at a law firm, which was a huge
law firm in downtown Chicago calledBaker McKinsey, which is a gigantic law
firm, and that was definitely no fun.
It was reality and everythingyou've heard about Chicago is true.
(15:58):
And I was a constitutional lawyer and I'djust come back in the military and they
were saying, well, you've gotta representthis Alderman and Alderman in Chicago.
It's a fiefdom.
So you got eight different areas inChicago, all downtown, and they're
supposed to represent this groupof, uh, eight blocks, 10 blocks.
Well, at the same time, they wereholding up all of the store owners
(16:19):
for protection, and I was supposedto be representing this guy well.
I told him I wasn't gonna do that.
So I just couldn't see myselfpracticing law for the next 20 years
or 30 years and call up Mr. Connetand I said, I can't do this anymore.
And he said, okay, probablyI have to talk to Ferrari.
Okay.
I. He talked to Ferrari and they said,we'll give you a dealership, but it has
(16:42):
to be west of the Mississippi River.
Well, I'd gone east to get mymaster's in constitutional law and
I didn't like the weather there.
I hated Chicago weather,snow, and all that stuff.
So I looked, and California wasdefinitely out of the question.
So I looked at Arizona, I thought.
This is great.
It's got fantastic airport, international.
There's nobody living there.
(17:03):
It's got roads you can go crazy on.
And so I said I'd like to have Arizona.
So he gave me Arizona,Colorado, and New Mexico.
And then the other thing thatthey did, which was fantastic was
they knew that I didn't have anymoney to speak of Ferrari and kti.
Funded me for the first three years.
(17:24):
In other words, paid my floor plan.
They would send the cars out and then Iwould sell them and everything like that.
So we're done with Ferrari?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
During that time, I continued torace for cnet, and as I said, Pedro
Rodriguez, my driving instructor,he had introduced me to John Wire.
But all during this time, I'd nevergot to physically see the golf
(17:47):
team cars, the GT forties running.
Actually the first time I saw 10 75, whichis the first Double Le Mans winning car.
It won in 1968 and 69 68.
It won with Pedro Rodriguez, uh, andin 69 it was Jackie Icks, which ended
up to be the closest race and mostfamous race at the 24 hours of LeMans.
(18:08):
So this was the car.
Knew Derrick Bell by thatpoint really, really well.
And so he had been racing mirage and afterthe 68, 69, he was racing for Ferrari.
Then in 1970, the FIAcame out with his formula.
It was a five year formulaand you had to make 25 cars.
(18:30):
Porsche made 25 cars.
Ferrari made 25 cars, but that wasFerrari because the last eight cars,
the tires were wood and there was,you know, it was Ferrari and Porsche
of course had everything down.
So that's how that happened.
And so it just continued to flow.
And when I, I. Who wasstill racing for Ferrari.
John Wire had called, I mean, Irespected the heck out of him just
(18:55):
because he, he approached Le Mansr theway that you should approach it.
You've got to be able to manage yourdrivers, but wire was just a master.
Ferrari could never figure it out.
John made sure that the driversstayed within maybe a second.
Every lap, and they could go faster, butthey were never allowed to go faster.
(19:16):
They had to stay each of them.
And that was because you wouldbuild up enough time that when
you made a pit stop and you had tofix something, you had 20 minutes.
Or 30 minutes, you wouldn't lose the lead.
And that happened when he won Le Mans, hewon the World Championship for Porsche.
He won the World Championship for Ford.
(19:37):
When Ford didn't do it, you know,with the GT forties, he was a
master tactician, but he kept to anabsolute, this is the way you do it.
And I learned from that and hewas my mentor as far as learning
how to manage a car, managedrivers and everything like that.
So John called and said, Harley Gulf Oil,you all don't remember, but maybe you do.
(20:01):
They got into a lot of problemsalong with Texaco, with the US
government because they were goingdown to South America, both of them.
And paying off their oilministers, whatever country
it was for drilling rights.
And that was a big no-no.
So TCO was less, but apparently GulfOil was pretty blatant about it.
(20:24):
So their lawyers said.
To them, you've gotta go low profile.
Well, it's kind of hard to go low profilewhen you've got a baby blue, an orange
race car, and you're also sponsoringall the tennis tournaments in the United
States, and you're also sponsoring allthe golf tournaments in the United States.
So John said, well, they haveto sell the team in the cars.
(20:45):
Okay, well that's cool.
That's really cool.
You need to buy 'em.
I said, well, John, and at thatpoint he was in grass in France.
He had just retired.
And so this was the longest phone call.
And I said, well, John, I'm thinkingto myself, are you kidding me?
And, and I said, no, that's great.
Thank you so much.
I, it is a real compliment, but John,I, I just, I don't have the experience.
Yes, you do.
(21:05):
Well, I don't have that sort of money.
Yes, you do.
Oh, I don't, I don't think I do.
And so this went back and forth.
I said, I don't wanna embarrass youand I don't wanna embarrass myself.
He said.
Just make the bloodyoffer a lot more colorful.
I said, okay, if I go and I call thesepeople and I buy it, I'm not gonna buy it
unless you promise that you will consult.
(21:27):
And he said, absolutely, I'll be there.
And then John Horsman said,I'll move to the United States.
And I said, okay.
So I called up gentleman,I was supposed to call.
And I said, Mr. I think his name's Kelsey.
Mrs. Harley Collection.
Oh, yes, Mr. Collection.
We were looking forward to your calling.
How much are you offering?
And this was the whole team.
That was all of the trademark rights.
(21:48):
That was all of the equipment.
Two race cars.
Ready to go a transporter,which we named the Queen Mary.
I think three mechanicswere thrown into it.
And John Horsman.
So I offered ridiculous amount of money.
50 bucks I heard.
Yeah.
Well no, 75.
That was ridiculous.
It was, I think it was $200,000.
(22:11):
No, maybe it was 120 in 1970s dollars.
Yeah.
$75. Yeah.
So I buy, Mirage came.
I was racing at Le Mansin 1975 for Mr. Connet.
I'm there with five cars.
Kennedy has basically representingthe factory because that 75 was going
to be a fuel run, so you had to havethese cars yet the most fuel efficient.
(22:35):
In other words, what they did wasthey cut down a 60 gallon fuel tank
down to 40 gallons and cars had togo slower, which meant also it had
to be more aerodynamically efficient.
And you could stretch the mileage andstill keep the speed up with Connet.
He didn't have any of these prototypesor the Group six cars, which the Mirage
(22:57):
were, he was racing 365 boxer and threeday tos, and I was in a 3 0 8 GT four.
And so he got into a real contestwith one of the a CO supervisors, I
should say, uh, a technical inspection.
And they had put the 3 0 8 GT four ingroup five, which is a 9 35 Porsche,
(23:23):
and he said, that's impossiblebecause they've made enough cars.
Now, this Frenchman said, well,Ferrari never notified us of that.
And Kennet went, well, I canget him to notify you right now.
And he said, no, it's too late.
You can't race the car.
You can't race it in this.
So he said, if I can't race thiscar, then I'm gonna pull the cars.
Well, it got ugly.
Kennet finally said, well,I'm gonna pull all the cars.
(23:45):
And the Frenchman said.
You do it.
So he pulled all the cars.
I went to Mr. Canadian, I said,can I go over to the Mirage team?
And he said, yeah, go, go, go.
And so I was over in my Ferri driving suitand then they won the 24 hours of Loma.
That was where then I brought 'em home.
I. So that's a very important pointthat you bring up because this weekend
(24:06):
coincides with the 50th anniversary ofthe Mirage GR Eights, finishing the 1975
Le Mans, which you just mentioned winning.
And there's some other notablestats here that you shared with me.
So six time Le Mans winner JackieHicks behind the wheel, a
second win and five time winner.
Derrick.
Bell, first time Winford, Joad, et cetera.
There's a whole list of famousnames at Mirage at this point, and
(24:29):
you're joining the team and you'regetting more and more involved.
Everybody that is famous in yourmind drove for John Wire and
he, he was called Death Ray.
He would talk to his drivers andthey had to be absolutely loyal.
And when I say loyal, because hewould go and he never did it to me.
But I could see how he could do it.
He would go and when they, he wasgiving a driver test for a potential
(24:53):
team driver, and it would be at Brand'sHatch, it could be at Silverstone,
and he would be hiding in the bushes.
And I swear to God, Vern Schoentold me that, and he's Australian,
so he's really colorful language.
And he said, I was going,I, and I screwed it up.
And I looked up and therewas death Ray looking at me.
And at that point, again,was important to remember.
(25:14):
That when I drove the 24 hours ofLe Mans and when Mario, who drove for
me, drove the 24 hours of Le Mans in82, it was the old 24 hours of Le Mans.
You only had two drivers.
Now you have three drivers,and it's a sprint because.
The course has been cut up and you'vegot so many chicanes have been put in
and you never get up to a lot of speed.
(25:36):
They did it for safety, apparently, andthen you stay involved, like you said,
through the seventies, into the eightieswith Mario Andretti and things like that.
So let's talk about yourtime as a team owner.
What sticks out and stands out to you assome of the memorable moments at Mirage?
Learning from John Wire, all of thedrivers loved him and respected him.
He was such a figure.
(25:57):
It was Mr. Wire, it was thisthat, you know, and always, and
it was baffled me how I evergot into that position with him.
I brought him to Scottsdale andhe was just world of knowledge.
And so basically the dealwas with John and John.
I said, I'll get the sponsorship.
You run the cars, and that was the deal.
(26:17):
75. Last time you drove at Le Mans,did you retire from Motorsport
at that point as a driver?
Yes.
Okay.
So full-time team owner in that.
So when you reflect back on Mirage'slegacy and all the time you spent
there, how did that change you?
You mean as far as theway I look at the French?
Well, how you look at Motorsport, right?
Because it's a different lens whenyou're a team owner and a team
principal versus being a driver, right?
(26:38):
Yeah.
More politics.
More bureaucracy, moreto do more, more, more.
Well, I think.
Having driven there and been a driver.
Going back to Le Mansr, it's a love haterelationship and I mean really hate and
whoever the twisted, really demented,A CO member that came up with said,
okay, well we have 12 hour races.
(27:00):
Why don't we have a 24 hour race?
I know so many Americans that.
Have been looking for this jerksgrave just to beat it to death
because it's, it's one of thosedeals you just keep on going 'cause
it's heartbreak until the very last.
You never know.
We were leading the 79 raceup until the 23rd hour.
(27:20):
Again, it was pissingvein and we fell out.
Derek was driving for me then.
And the 9 36 s, which were mynemesis because we'd won in 75 and
I came in second in 76 behind them.
And then 77, I thought Iwas really gonna get 'em.
'cause we were using rno.
Turbocharge Miller came in second again,and that was the second most famous race.
(27:43):
That's when.
Went crazy and drove with Ley Haywood.
Yeah, yeah.
All that stuff, and UroGenbath and all that continued.
And then with Le Mans, it's a real sickness.
It really is, because if you go andyou're a team owner or a driver, you
just pray that if you're gonna fall out,you fall out in the first two hours,
three hours, because it just sucks tofall out at four o'clock in the morning,
(28:07):
or just when the sun's coming up.
There are things that John.
Would expect of his drivers.
You will do this, you will do that.
Your pit stops are gonna bethis, and if there's a screw up.
And so he was the first manager, Iguess you would say, and he's a legend
of Le Mans that would take notes and Ihave all of his notes, everything.
And take the time it took in the pits,each car in each driver, and then figure
(28:32):
out, came in with a broken whateverand how long it was in the pits.
Also the growth of the tires,you know, which is a big deal.
'cause if you're doing 235miles an hour, the tires grow.
That lifts the car up and thenit gets really ly, you know?
And so it was all of that stuffand the pit stops were down.
I. To half seconds fueling everything andthen the drivers comparison every lap.
(28:57):
And you drivers are drivers.
So, so anyway, I, I learned all ofthat and I learned race management,
which is hugely important to beable to manage everything to make
sure that you've built up enough.
Reserve time with your lap times thatyou've set that you can repair something.
(29:17):
'cause the cars were always breaking.
Unlike today that's going on right now.
It's a sprint race.
You have the Mulan, but then you havetwo of these Chicanes and I doubt
the hypercar are getting up to twohundred and ten, two hundred fifteen.
I mean Porsche's.
This Porsche was actually the 1971Porsche Long Tail, which Laro was driving.
(29:39):
Gerard Laro was driving this car too.
248 miles an hour every lap at night.
That's impressive.
With your legs hanging out up bythe lights, legs short now, but
that's, I, it's, I impressive.
Well, since you mentioned it, andwe promised the audience that we
would talk more about this car,so you got involved in this car,
(29:59):
you competed against this car.
You talked about your racing against PedroRodriguez in the Ferraris and whatnot.
How did you get involved?
In the hippie Porsche, how did you come toown this car and and what drew you to it?
This was a two year deal.
It's 25 cars, 70 and 71.
It went to a new formula, whichwas group six, and that turned
into, it had to be a three literformula one motor, and you could.
(30:24):
Do it open.
You could do a close, but it hadto be a three liter formula, one
base motor before through 1967.
It was bringing yougrace, what you belong.
Anyway, Ford of course,brought 550 horsepower.
Ferrari was 475 horsepowerin the P fours or less.
(30:45):
But that was a difference in mm-hmm.
What, what we were doing.
So my love for Porsches, I mean, Ican tell you everything about the tail
end of a 9 36 or one of these things.
So he motivated me.
Yeah.
You acquired this car, you had itin your possession for a while.
Did you ever get toturn a lap in this car?
And what was it like comparedto the Ferraris that you drove?
(31:06):
John Wire had told me and Horsmanalso, you know, because I always
looked at the five twelves as clunkerscompared to these Porsche and John
Wire said they were built better.
The Germans didn't really care aboutthe drivers, they were expendable.
And he said the Mray, which was the1971 car, was actually pretty good.
He said, but Ferrari decided, whichthey did 'cause it was the end of
(31:29):
the last year, they didn't develop.
The only thing I did was I pretty wellknown for this piece of, again, it's
Arizona had a very good relationship withthe um, Scottsdale Airport management.
'cause I also, I. Fly helicopters.
So I knew them and I asked them all alongthe way, can I test a car on the runway?
And I said, yeah, sure, no problem.
(31:50):
So I tested Formula One carsand everything like that.
Well, I went out in thiscar, we just painted it.
It was everything that I had heardfrom John Wire about Your feet are
hanging out in front of the wheels.
It all came back to me becauseas I accelerated, first of
all, you know, I'm short.
The visual, you know, your sitepicture, you know, you usually
(32:11):
go off the front vendors, stufflike that, or a visual point.
Well, there's nothing.
The way that it's this windshieldis that you can really get a visual
shot at what you're aiming at.
But more than that was, I don'tthink I was doing 60 miles an hour
starting South airport runways.
I don't know if you'veever been on one, but.
They're not like roads.
(32:32):
They're usually cement and stuff.
So you go, boom, boom.
I was getting so much wind throughthe cockpit, through the foot
well, and I was getting dust.
I was getting everything else, andit was like my feet were that far
out and I could feel through mydriving shoes, I could feel coming up.
It was air.
And that is not a good feelingyou wanna have, knowing that the
(32:54):
first thing you're gonna hit ifyou go in nose first is your feet.
That was what was really lethal witha lot of drivers and then also the
fuel deal, so to say, if I got up toa hundred miles an hour, I doubt it.
I doubt it incredibly fast cars.
But I mean, if you made a mistake orsomebody made a mistake for you, guy in
(33:15):
front of you, whatever, lethal, no bueno.
Getting into our final segment here,let's talk a little bit about the future.
So for those of you sitting inthe audience, you're here watching
Le Mans as part of the viewingparty in a couple of weeks.
The Le Mans Classic is happening,that's 24 hours of vintage cars.
Harley.
Do you see Mirage participatingin the classic in the future?
And if so, will you be involved?
(33:35):
Well, they, they already have, they've wonthe GR Sevens, which is the Golf racing
Sevens, so that would be a 1974 car.
We have of the two, there's thenumber 10 car that came in second,
two times well came in third wasSchoen driving in the 1975 Le Mans.
And then second overall is now racing.
(33:58):
Uh, Le Mans Classic.
And the 74 car has won theLamont Classic three times.
So it's a golf Miragewith a Cosworth motor.
So yes, they're very, very good.
And the great thing about it isthat when you go to the classic,
you'll see all of these cars.
You won't see the nineseventeens that much.
(34:18):
I mean, the last time I thinkthat a nine 17 race there was
with Bobby Ra Hall race of nine 17that he owned with Brian Redmond.
Mm-hmm.
And they had exactly the same problemthat wire had with his nine seventeens.
With the aerodynamic changes thatthe inner wheel bearings when
you're running it to get really hot.
(34:40):
And then they seize andwheels come flying off.
Yeah.
That or youth go flying off.
And so they were apparently arguingwith each other and, and to stop.
And it was smart enough, matureenough I guess you'd say.
Say now let's do this again.
So if you ever look at Brian Redmond,you see, you know, he's got all of these
wrinkles around, was baklava, you wearba I should say not the Greek food.
(35:04):
Sorry.
And it's burned.
And that was in a 9 0 8.
Porsche winning the Target Florio in 19.
He ran it in 1973 and Ithink maybe it was 1974.
Same car.
The car was upside down, crashed, andhe was caught fuel tank burst and he was
(35:25):
caught on fire and he was able to crawlout because there was, this is a target
Florida, nobody came for 35 minutes, sothat's why they don't do that anymore.
But I'm just saying howdangerous these cars are.
Pedro died in a five 12.
Mm-hmm.
Same deal.
So the Le Mansr Classic, you know, intalking with really great guy Chris
McAllister, who has a nine 17 Porschethat has a golf car and God knows what
(35:49):
else he drives it just the way it was.
That's the cool thingabout the Le Mansr Classic.
You're gonna see real cars out there.
You'd never see any otherplace driving at Le Mans.
So it, it is reallyexciting, it's really fun.
And as Gerard Roos told me when he broughtme back after I promised I'd never go
back to Le Mans after Le Mans E two and hecalled up You, you've gotta come back,
(36:12):
make you, I don't remember number one.
And I thought it was gonna be another dim.
And I told him that.
And he said, no, no, no, it's okay.
It's okay.
So I came back and I hadn'tbeen to Le Mansr and this was 2011.
He came back and he said, I haveto warn you, the track has changed.
And I said, okay.
For the good or bad, hesaid, it's really bad.
It's really bad.
(36:32):
It's really bad.
I. And then I went and Iwatched, it was like really bad.
Really bad.
Just because, you know, it was themost difficult road race in the world.
Now it's a sprint race.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I mean, you've lost somany factors that went into it
that make it the most difficult andthe race for manufacturers to win.
Well, I guess we'll give thatto the Bergen 24 now, right?
(36:55):
Yeah.
Oh, the old spa.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, so let's talk about Le Mans.
We're here, we're watching the race.
Are you rooting for Ferrari?
Do you have any other projections?
I think it's great that Ferrari won andthey did, and knowing Ferrari as I do,
and I'm sure that you all know enoughthat know that there F1 team is hopeless.
Um, nobody was allowed to work.
(37:18):
None of the engineers,none of the F went in.
No, no.
Uhuh You guys just continued toscrew your things up over and there.
So this was all done by AlphaCorso and so, which is, I guess
you'd say a semi factory team.
Delara built the car and then a of course.
So working, driving and allthese team, and they won in
(37:40):
last year and the year before.
And this year they'rehaving a, a tough time.
I think.
I'm just surprised.
Penske hasn't won.
Uh, they've got four cars and it's avery, very difficult formula because
the only thing that a manufacturer hasis that you have three chassis choices.
You have Multimatic, you have Dara.
(38:02):
Cadillac has picked Dara.
BMW has Dara.
Porsche has Multimatic,which is of course in Canada.
And then all you do isyou put your motor in.
Everybody has the same transmissions.
You can do aerodynamically comes fromDara, or you can have your design guy,
(38:23):
you know, as long as it meets that spec.
Well, you know, this hybrid stuff,it's just, it's so expensive and
I think, you know, to answer yourquestion, who do I want to win?
I'd love to see ASIN Martin winonly because no one is that the
whole team is in Arizona andit's a normally aspirated car.
It's a 6.4 liter, 12 cylinder.
(38:45):
How bad is that?
But of course then you have to dumb itdown to 580 horsepower or whatever it is.
And there are too many regulationsas far as if you have one
team win, whether it's in.
GT three or hypercar, if they win likethree years in a row, well then they
get this BOP selectively served on 'em.
(39:07):
Mm-hmm.
So Ray Hall's had it happen.
So it's a very difficultformula to understand.
I don't like it.
What can I tell you?
I mean, we have it.
We have it in Indy car,and it's just a joke.
I'll give you an example with thesehypercar, as they call 'em, the drive
shafts have torque meters on 'em, andthe torque meter is to make sure that
(39:28):
you're putting out 528 horsepower.
Well, that's really great.
But if you go off the road, this torquemeter, one wheel is gonna go crazy.
Well, what happens is they have home base,and so they'll sit there and the minute
they see it, they go, and you lose 200horsepower on the street, gimme a break.
Let's go racing.
So that's my opinion on it.
(39:50):
All right.
Well, Harley, last question.
What's next for you?
You're still very muchinvolved in Motorsport.
What's next?
Anything coming up you wanna share?
No, I'm just desperately looking for fun.
Oh yeah.
No, it's, um, I like vintage racing.
It's really fun, but you get to the agewhere you're not as good as you think
(40:11):
you should be, or wanna admit, and I'm,I'm there, you know, and so I have fun.
Now, if I go and buy an Alpha GTA.
And you go out and smoke Porschesall day, you know, or a cobra or
something that, you know, that's great.
Vintage racing for me should be, orany professional driver, you should
be able to take a black and whitepicture of that car that you're, you're
driving, and then take a pick of blackand white picture of you driving.
(40:34):
And if it isn't all twisted up and onewheel up, you know you're cheating.
Because it, that's theway that the cars were.
Well, on that note, folks, we've had theprivilege of revisiting a fascinating
chapter in endurance racing historythrough the experiences of Harley
Clarkston from taking the reins of theMirage team after golf oil's exit, and
guiding them through a remarkable runof successes at Le Mans, including the win
(40:56):
in 75 and podium finishes in 76 and 77.
Harley's vision and leadership helped.
Preserve one of the sport'smost iconic privateer efforts.
His dedication not only extendedthe Mirage legacy, but also
embodied the entrepreneurialspirit that defines motorsports.
Golden age.
God.
I love him.
I love him.
I know, right?
I absolutely love it.
(41:17):
With that, we hope you enjoyedthis presentation and look forward
to more evening with a legendthroughout the season, and on behalf
of everyone here, the A-C-O-U-S-Aand those listening at home.
Listening at home, what?
You never told me that.
Oh yeah.
Thank you, Harley.
Oh God.
And that's a wrap.
(41:38):
Thank you.
This episode has been brought to youby the Automobile Club of the West and
the A-C-O-U-S-A from the awe-inspiringspeed demons that have graced the
track to the courageous drivers whohave pushed the limits of endurance.
(42:02):
The 24 hours of Le Mans is anautomotive spectacle like no other.
For over a century the 24 hoursLe Mans has urged manufacturers to
innovate for the benefit of futuremotorists, and it's a celebration of
the relentless pursuit of speed andexcellence in the world of motorsports.
To learn more about or to become a memberof the ACO ussa look no further than
www.Le Mansn.org, click on English in theupper right corner and then click on
(42:27):
the a CO members tab for club offers.
Once you've become a member, you canfollow all the action on the Facebook
group, A-C-O-U-S-A Members Club, andbecome part of the Legend with Future
Evening with the legend meetups.
(42:49):
This episode has been brought to youby Grand Touring Motorsports as part
of our Motoring Podcast network.
For more episodes like this, tune in eachweek for more exciting and educational
content from organizations like TheExotic Car Marketplace, the Motoring
Historian, break Fix, and many others.
If you'd like to support GrandTouring Motorsport and the Motoring
Podcast Network, sign up for oneof our many sponsorship tiers at
(43:11):
www.patreon.com/gt Motorsports.
Please note that the content,opinions and materials presented and
expressed in this episode are thoseof its creator, and this episode has
been published with their consent.
If you have any inquiries about thisprogram, please contact the creators
of this episode via email or socialmedia as mentioned in the episode.
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