July 3, 2025 • 26 mins
In this Pitstop Mini-sode host Rick Hughey from the International Motor Racing Research Center interviews legendary racing driver Hurley Haywood. Hurley details his early family background and upbringing in Illinois, where he developed a passion for driving. His formal education took him to Boston, Vermont, and Florida, where he met Peter Gregg, sparking his racing career.
After transitioning from motorcycles to AutoCrossing with a Corvette, Hurley impressed Gregg and joined his racing crew. With support from his father, Hurley pursued professional racing, leading to significant accomplishments such as winning multiple IMSA Championships. He shares experiences including his time during the Can-Am series, racing a Porsche 917 and highlights the transition to driving for other teams and the disciplined environments they provided. He reflects on notable races, including his three Le Mans victories and his involvement in the International Race of Champions (IROC). Hurley emphasizes the evolution of racing into a marketing tool and provides insight into the strategic planning behind modern racing series.
This episode was originally recorded in August 2004 at Watkins Glen International and has been remastered for this podcast.
===== (Oo---x---oO) =====
00:00 Early Life and Racing Beginnings 01:58 Meeting Peter Gregg and Early Racing Career 03:37 First Major Wins and Military Service 04:23 IMSA Championships and Can Am Series 05:19 Challenges and Triumphs in Racing 05:54 The Can Am Experience 07:50 Racing with Brumos and Prototype Cars 15:56 Marketing and Evolution of Racing 20:01 Le Mans and Daytona Comparisons 22:14 International Race of Champions 23:55 Conclusion and Credits====================
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This episode is part of our HISTORY OF MOTORSPORTS SERIES and is sponsored in part by: The International Motor Racing Research Center (IMRRC), The Society of Automotive Historians (SAH), The Watkins Glen Area Chamber of Commerce, and the Argetsinger Family.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Breakfix's History of Motorsportsseries is brought to you in part
by the International Motor RacingResearch Center, as well as the
Society of Automotive Historians,the Watkins Glen Area Chamber of
Commerce, and the Argettsinger family.
In this episode of the History ofMotorsports, host Rick Huey from
the International Motor RacingResearch Center interviews legendary
(00:23):
racing driver, Hurley Haywood.
Hurley details his early family backgroundand upbringing in Illinois, where
he developed a passion for driving.
His formal education took him fromBoston to Vermont, and finally
Florida, where he met PeterGregg, sparking his racing career.
After transitioning frommotorcycles to autocrossing with
a Corvette, Hurley impressedGregg and joined his racing crew.
(00:44):
With support from his father, Hurleypursued professional racing, leading
to significant accomplishments, suchas winning multiple IMSA championships.
He shares experiences, including histime during the Can Am Series racing a
Porsche 917, and highlights the transitionto driving for other teams and the
disciplined environments they provided.
He reflects on notable races,including his three Le Mans
(01:05):
victories, and his involvement inthe International Race of Champions.
Hurley emphasizes the evolution ofracing into a marketing tool, and
provides insight into the strategicplanning behind modern racing series.
Hurley, can you tell us a little bit aboutyour family background, where you grew up?
Well, I grew up in Chicago, Illinois.
My parents had a home right in the city,and then my grandmother had a big farm
(01:26):
outside the city in Wheaton, Illinois.
So as a youth, Growing up, I hada lot of opportunity to explore
driving all sorts of vehicles fromtractors to go karts to driving a
full size car when I was 12 years old.
And we had set up a little course outin one of the fields, so, you know, I
was learning about drift and all thatkind of stuff at a pretty early age.
(01:48):
So, I went off to boarding schoolin the 7th and 8th grade up
to, um, Boston, Massachusetts.
Then I went to prep school up in Vermont.
And then I came down to College, Florida,and that's when, uh, I met Peter Gregg,
and the whole racing thing got started.
Now, was that just a casual meeting,or a Well, when I had graduated from
(02:11):
high school, first I got a motorcycle,and then my mother Started reading
all these reports about how dangerousmotorcycles was, so I was able to wrangle
a motorcycle into a, uh, a Corvette.
And I took the Corvette withme when I went to college.
And I used to race theCorvette in autocrosses all
across the state of Florida.
And I was pretty much unbeatable.
(02:31):
And one weekend we had a, uh, An eventin Jacksonville and Peter Gregg was
there with his race car and it came ona big fancy transport and everybody was
moaning and groaning and I didn't knowwho Peter Gregg was at that point and I
beat him and he came over and introducedhimself and he said you got to be pretty
good to beat me and that's how we becamefriendly and he knew that I was friends.
Kind of interested in racing and I wentwith his crew and helped on the crew to
(02:55):
the races and then when I got to be 21,I had talked my dad into helping support
my racing and he basically agreed todo that, but he put a time limit on it.
He said, I will help you.
finance this program for you for twoyears and after two years is over,
you have to be going successfulenough to continue at the same level
(03:17):
without using any of your funds.
So basically I thought, well, I'm goingto get two years of having a good time
and then I'll go do something morereasonable and the rest is history.
Were you an SCCA member at that time?
No, I was not an SCCA member.
I remember.
I had a regional license in 1969.
I turned 21 in 1969.
But Peter had decided that we wouldrun the six hours of Watkins Plum.
(03:41):
And I said, that's great,but I don't have any license.
He said, well, don'tworry about the license.
You'll get it through NASCAR.
Back then, it was simply, you mailed yourmoney in and you got a NASCAR license.
And once I had the NASCAR license, Iapplied to the FIA and got an FIA license.
And then as long as I had myFIA license, I could race here.
So I arrived in Watkins Glen.
Really, I mean, this is one of myfirst races, and the SCCA people
(04:05):
here were just having a fit.
Peter said, don't worry about it.
He's fine, and I'll takefull responsibility for him.
And we won the race, and we've beenwinning races at the Glen ever since.
Then I went off into the military.
I went to Vietnam at the end of 1969.
I was over there for a little over a year.
Came back in 71, and then in 71,Peter and I decided that we would
(04:29):
run for the entire IMSA championship.
That was the first year of IMSA.
We had a 914 6, which I actually owned.
And the deal was, I owned the car,and then Peter would do all of the
preparation and end of the races,and I would co drive with him.
He paid me to drive with him.
That was the giant killer.
We were racing in the 2.
5 liter class that was under,and then there was over,
(04:51):
which was the big Corvettes.
And we were so good that we were beatingthe Corvettes on a pretty regular basis.
And Peter and I co won the,uh, IMSA championship in 71.
And then in 72, then we wentover, we switched to 9 11.
Peter was racing in theCan Am back then, in 72.
So he basically gave me theresponsibility of running the race.
the shorter races to tryto win the championship.
(05:14):
So I won the championshipoutright in 72, driving a 911.
At that period of time,Super V was coming along.
Uh, was that anythingyou were interested in?
Well, I was really not targeting.
But Fred Opr asked me if I would driveone of his cars out in California, and
I said sure, I'd love the opportunity.
(05:36):
I don't really remember the years, butit was mid 70s I think, and I promptly
went out and won a couple races.
But there wasn't a budget to continueon, so I really didn't explore that
much more than just a couple races.
But the couple races I did run, Iwould either won them or missed them.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your jump into Can Am?
(05:56):
That's a big jump from a 911.
Well, Peter, of course,had the Can Am car in 1972.
And he had a couple wrecksand he didn't really enjoy it.
So he came to me and he said, Wouldyou like to run the Can Am series?
He said, I think you havethe ability to run it.
In hindsight, I really hadvery little years of racing
(06:19):
to qualify me to race in 917.
I think it was just a crafty way of himto get somebody to sell us this car to.
So, the first three race carsthat Brumos had were my cars.
The 914 I owned, the 911that we raced in 72 I owned.
And this 917 that I raced in 1973, I own.
So those are the only three race carsthat I've owned, and Brumos has all
(06:43):
those cars back in our collection.
To get back to your point, I acceptedthat role, and was really excited about
it, and went into it just as a total.
as far as that kind ofperformance in that kind of a car.
This was a car that had huge horsepower.
You know, the 911s had, at thatpoint, under 300 horsepower.
(07:03):
I was jumping into a carthat had 1, 100 horsepower.
So there was a little bit ofa transition period that was
a pretty steep learning curve.
But all the guys really helped me a lot.
In adapting to those cars.
I remember Mark Donahue really tookme under his wing, and Mark was
the most influential person thathad the most direct effect on how
(07:25):
I was able to adapt to those cars.
So he and the Penske crew werevery helpful in our setup and the
philosophy and the sort of howyou drive these cars and what.
And it was a lot of fun.
I was third in the championship.
I got beaten by Mark,George Fulmer, and then me.
So, that was pretty good when you hadguys like Jody Schechter and David Hobbs
and all the rest of the guys that wereracing against you to, you know, have your
(07:48):
rookie year come out third was not so bad.
So, I think that that exposure also gavea little, uh, bit of a foundation to how
I was able to adapt to different racecars that Porsche was watching at that.
Because I think that they liked the ideaof having an American that they could,
you know, switch back and forth indifferent programs that they were running.
(08:08):
Somebody that they could feelcomfortable with and trust.
Just to go back to the Can Am car, theyeven had an adjustable wheelbase on them?
No.
Do I remember that?
Well, no.
They did not have an adjustable.
The 917 10, which is what I had,was a short wheelbase car when the
30, and Donahue ran that car in 72.
And in 73, Porsche made the 91730, which was exclusive to Penske.
(08:33):
And that car put everybody else on thetrailer because that was a long wheelbase
car, had a different aero package on it.
They were tubular construction.
Mm hmm.
Tubes.
When I look at my car now, You know, Iwas just a stupid young kid to drive that
car as fast as we were doing it, becauseif you ever had a frontal impact with
one of those cars, it was gonna hurt.
There wasn't a lot of substance up there.
(08:54):
You sat between two 50gallon tanks of gasoline.
It was, it was a prettyhairy ride, as I remember it.
As I said, I've still got that car.
And, uh, We race it occasionally andI am very respectful for that car.
You know, it's just a wonderfulpiece of machinery in it.
But it's also pretty frighteningif you let it get away from you.
(09:17):
You explained or mentioned that Petershifted to BMW for one or two seasons.
Is that a political thing?
Yeah, it was totally political.
Peter was used to getting What he wanted.
Porsche wouldn't give him what he wanted.
And he said, well, if you don't gimmewhat I want, I'm gonna go race for BMW.
And he did.
During the time that he was racinghim for BMWI was racing for VA polock
(09:39):
in the transient with the 9 3 4.
Peter was, you know, he was went raceswith the BMW and then that's when the
factory came over with Ook and RonniePeterson and Zi was driving for.
So they, they were fairly seriousand they had their, uh, headquarters
here in Hueytown, Alabama.
That's where the factory team was based.
(10:01):
And they ran a really stout program.
And then in 78, Peterwent back to Porsche.
Because, you know, Porsche thenrealized how big of a threat
the BMW was to their dominance.
And they wanted Peter back.
So that was just one short year.
You know, Peter was passed away in 1981.
And then in 1983, I hada very serious accident.
(10:23):
I had won Le Mans in 83.
I came back, I was up in most sportand had a bad accident, broke my leg.
And it was a serious break.
And basically the bottom line was thatI did not have the strength to push
the clutch down on a Porsche back then.
That was just on the cusp ofwhen the 962s were coming.
I had won Le Mans in 956, which is thepredecessor of the 962, but that car
(10:48):
was not allowed to race in IMSA untilthe wheelbase was extended so the wheels
would be behind the front center line.
So basically I was out of luck and justsaid, well, you know, I'm going to have
to sit it out until my leg gets backtogether again, which was two years.
And I got a call from Tullius andhe said, in our cars you don't
have to push the clutch down.
(11:09):
He said, I'd like to continue.
Have you come drive for our team?
That relationship lasted five years.
I drove with the Jags for two yearsor three years, and then I drove
for him with the Audi program.
And he was a great guy.
A lot of people didn'tlike Bob, but I liked him.
He and I never had a crossword.
I was always kind of a little rebellious.
(11:29):
You know, you had to do theuniform thing on that team.
You had to be dressed in a uniformevery time, and Bob was very Explicit
about, you know, white shoes, whitesocks, white shorts, green belt, gold
army type style belt buckle, whiteshirt, you know, the whole nine yards.
And I would always have one thing thatwas not quite up to team standard.
(11:50):
Different colored belts or aslightly different shade of sock
or, you know, something like that.
And he never said it.
I knew he saw it, buthe never said anything.
It was a nice relationship withhim, and I really liked the
team, and I liked the discipline.
And, you know, Bob was one of thefirst guys that really brought
professionalism up to a standardthat's now enjoyed by everybody.
(12:10):
He walked down Pit Lane in the Grand Amranks, or IMSA, or whatever it is, and
the team and the philosophy that youhave with these teams, uniforms, detail,
preparation, all was started by Bob.
To some extent, Peter and AlHobart were part of that, but
Bob truly has really brought thatdiscipline to sports car racing.
(12:31):
And the preparation therewas always excellent.
I mean, I know one of his mechanicsused to work on Air Force One.
So, that's got to be second to none.
Talk a little bit about someof the prototype cars and
their differences, I guess.
The things that stood out about them.
You're talking about GTP?
Yeah.
The GTP car is basically, youknow, I drove the Jaguars.
(12:52):
Yeah, that had the Hewlin, isthat what made the shifting?
Yeah, it had a Hewlin gearbox.
Just rev it up and And shift.
Basically the same principlesas our Daytona prototypes.
It's a non synchromeshed gearbox.
You had that car, you had the962, which was a fantastic car.
You had the Ford Puma.
The Probe, which I droveon a couple of occasions.
The Nissan, which I drove on a coupleof occasions, which was like a nightmare
(13:15):
before it went on to Goodyear tires.
But of those cars, the 962 was theCadillac of that genre of cars.
It was very easy to drive it, that's whyso many people were able to drive it.
It was a very customerfriendly car, up to a point.
And once it got to that point, thenthe real pros were able to shine
(13:36):
and bring it to the next level.
Most of the guys that had thosecars had ran private teams.
There was an owner, like a BruceLovin or a Bob Aiken or Rob Dyson,
you know, somebody like that.
who drove the car, was relativelycompetitive, and then they would
hand it over to their pro driver, andthe pro drivers would race together.
So it worked out, it was a really nice waythat it all worked out, similar to what
(13:58):
the initial concept was with the Grand Am.
And with the Daytona prototype, is you getan owner, and a pro guy, and Everything
would go great, but the thing that sortof threw that whole thing in the waste
basket was when Brian Redmond brought CarlHaas, when Carl Haas was thinking about
building a car and Carl said, well, hesaid, I know how we can win all the races.
(14:19):
And Brian said, well, how do we do that?
And Carl said, well, I'llhire two professional drivers.
That was the end of that.
So what happened at that point wasthat the guys that were really.
Had a lot of money, had twocars, one a pro car and one an
amateur car that they could drive.
So, it all worked itself outand it was fantastic racing.
That was probably an era that willnever be duplicated again because
(14:41):
of the incredible exposure thatCampbell Cigarettes gave us with R.
J.
Reynolds.
The individual manufacturerswere in it and each one of those
individual manufacturers werespending tremendous amounts of money
supporting teams in that series.
We are trying to build that back up.
with the Daytona prototypes.
It's beginning to work for GrandAm because more and more people are
(15:02):
becoming interested in these carsand they're getting more sponsors
involved, and when the sponsors getinvolved then it's going to be good
for everybody because everybody's goingto get a spin off of what they do.
So, it's marching its way back becausesports car racing has been so fragmented
in the last ten years and it's Fantasticthat the Grand Am and the France family
have got this desire to see sports carracing work in this country and work, not
(15:27):
just the short term, but work on the longterm with a real intelligent, well thought
out business plan where people can say,okay, this is what we're going to do.
This is the graph line of accelerationthat these cars are going to have
and it's not going to change forfive years or for X number of years.
So people are confident in spending themoney knowing that they're not going
(15:47):
to have to spend the same kind of moneythe next year to have a better piece.
The rules remain stabilized.
So that's an importantconsideration to have.
Another thing that sort of dovetailsoff that kind of thinking is that
when I raced in their 70s and 80s,You know, the racing was a hugely
important development scale for Porsche.
They used what they learned on theracetrack in their street cars.
(16:11):
So when they wanted to try something,they'd try it on the race car.
If it worked on the race carin a racing situation, then
it would work on a street car.
Nowadays, that isn't really done anymore,because a computer analysis does that
much more efficiently than a race car can.
So what does racing become now,in the eyes of the company?
It becomes How you marketwhat you're doing in racing
(16:32):
to help you sell automobiles.
So, that's something that the Grand Amguys are doing well because it's allowing
individual teams to come into it with,uh, Lexus motors, Ferrari motors, Porsche
motors, Ford motors, Chevrolet motors,Pontiac motors, all these different
combinations, and not have to spendtens of millions, hundreds of millions.
(16:55):
In Audi's case, I mean, Audi's spendingjust unbelievable amounts of money with
these prototypes, you know, for what?
You look at it, it's kind of stupid.
And if you had to defend thatposition, which is one of the reasons
why Porsche's done it, is becauseit simply does not make sense.
financial sense to getin it at this level.
(17:15):
When you can do something like Grand Amand Daytona prototypes, which will win the
races overall for 10 cents on the dollar.
And there's, there's a limitednumber of chassis builders for it.
So that also adds to the savings, sir.
Yep.
And you, your manufacturers come intoit and they sell one car and that car
(17:35):
is going to be, X number of dollars andthe 10th car that they sell is going to
be the same amount of money, but they'reable to amortize that development cost
over 10 car or 15 car, 20 car program.
And same thing with the engines.
The engines are basically submitted toGrand Am their Grand Am looks at it.
They say, okay, yeah, this is good.
No, this is not good.
(17:56):
And so everybody's pretty confidentthat the engine formulas will remain.
relatively equal regardless ofwhat power plant you're using.
With our team, with Brumhaus, we use a 3.
6 liter Porsche motor.
It's the smallest motorin the whole field.
We're down on torque, which helps youget from point A to point B quickly.
Our horsepower is equal to everybodyelse's, but it's the torque that hurts us.
(18:19):
But you know, that's part ofour package because we're able
to weigh a little bit less and.
Certainly if we need more there, wehave to negotiate with it, but the
negotiation is not a black and white,there's always room for adjustment.
Early you mentioned the Audi, tell usabout that four wheel drive Audi car,
I know you had one race here that,did you do the whole race yourself?
(18:39):
Yeah, I, I got into, uh, Scott Goodyearwas, uh, Scott was new to the team.
I was having a great battle andjust didn't want to give it up
at the pit stop, so I stayed in.
And the Audi, that was really thefirst time that I had been with a
factory team that was excessive.
Anything that we wanted, we could have.
(18:59):
I mean, if I said, hey guys, you know,I want to have wood paneling on the
dashboard, I mean, the next race I'dhave wood paneling on the dashboard.
It was like a driver's dream.
And the cars themselveswere absolutely fantastic.
I mean, just, it was just a reallynice atmosphere to be able to work
in that kind of situation whereanything you wanted was possible.
(19:21):
Now, was that Tullius?
That was Tullius.
Ran that program.
And we mentioned marketinga little while ago.
They're still using video from those daysto market the Audi all wheel drive now.
So, it really stood outin history, I think.
We came into those things with thisfunny looking sedan, and everybody was
laughing at us until our first race.
We just hammered everybody.
You know, the all wheel drive is certainlysomething that has found its way into lots
(19:46):
of different types of production cars now.
It's just as a benefitthat is, um, well worth it.
and Audi was the one thatkind of pioneered that system.
In a race car, it was just phenomenal.
That's why they basically banned it.
You don't see four wheeldrive cars anymore.
We mentioned Le Mans quite a bit.
Could we recap your Le Mans victories?
Well, Le Mans, I've hada good record at Le Mans.
(20:08):
And of course, every time I'vebeen to Le Mans, I've been on a
factory team, which helps immensely.
So my finishing record there is good.
Got three wins there.
People always want to compareDaytona, and other than the length
of the race, there is no comparison.
Daytona is a much more difficultrace to win, and to drive in.
For one thing, you've got 12hours of darkness at Daytona.
(20:31):
You only have maybe 5 hours ofdarkness at Le Mans, because
it gets dark there so late.
In Europe, The drivingis much more disciplined.
The guys that are driving the slowcars know they're driving the slow
cars and stay the hell out of the way.
It's a very, very cut and dry.
If you're a slow car,you stay on the left.
If you're a fast car, you go on the right.
(20:52):
Everybody's looking constantly intheir rearview mirrors because back in
the 70s and 80s, the overtaking speedwas sometimes 70, 80 miles an hour.
So you went right.
You really fast by somebody's slow car.
Nowadays, the difference is not so great,but even so, it's still very disciplined.
The course is billiardtable smooth and very fast.
(21:13):
I mean, average lap time speed is165 miles an hour around there.
So, you really, you know, You've got toconcentrate tremendously, and it's long.
I mean, for a new guy going there, ittakes a long time to sort of figure
out the nuances of the racetrack.
But it's the Super Bowl,as far as the tradition.
Even though Daytona is the same length,I think it's got Deeper roots than
(21:36):
Daytona, but I find winning Daytona muchmore gratifying than winning Le Mans.
Number one, it's in my backyard,which makes it my home track.
And I've been really successfuldown there, so it's like going
home every time I go to Daytona.
And to be able to win down there on sucha regular basis makes it even better.
I like going to Daytona better thanI do going to Le Mans because Le
(21:59):
Mans is halfway around the world.
But, it's so seeped in historythat as a racing driver and as a
sports car racer, I think everybodydeserves to do at least one Le Mans
just to sort of take in that wholeatmosphere of the Le Mans experience.
International Race of Champions.
And that was really an experience.
You know, I had read about IROC andwhat a big deal it was to get invited.
(22:23):
And when I was invited,I was just blown away.
It was really, it was a cool deal.
The cars were completely alien to me asfar as how they handled the stock car.
Philosophy of drafting and positioningyourself on a racetrack to take
advantage of drafting was a completeart that I knew nothing about.
And Dale Earnhardt took me under his wingbecause I think he felt sorry for me.
(22:45):
He said, you know, thisis what you need to do.
And I listened to him because Iknew, you know, Dale was the best.
And Dale was in everysingle IROC that I was in.
He only told me just so much.
He wouldn't tell me everything.
But he told me enough to keepmyself safe and out of trouble.
Not to screw somebody else up with amove that you might make and not think
(23:07):
about what the consequence might be.
But it was a, it was a thrill and beingable to come from a different form of
racing, sports car racing, and one go intothat sort of stock car type of automobile.
Racing with Dale Earnhardt, MarkMartins, the Rusty Wallaces, with
Larry Arendyke, Michael Andretti,and all the guys from IndyCar.
(23:28):
It was a really big thrilland it was tons of fun.
I really enjoyed my,uh, I did it four times.
My best finish out of thosefour times I think was fourth.
I could have won the race if I justhad not gotten greedy, but I just
tried to do that pass and got hungout and that was the end of that, but
it was, it was a thrill and a treat.
(23:55):
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Newtons, gummy bears, and monster.
So consider signing upfor Patreon today at www.
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of this would be possible.
Breakfix's History of Motorsportsseries is brought to you in part
by the International Motor RacingResearch Center, as well as the
Society of Automotive Historians,the Watkins Glen Area Chamber of
Commerce, and the Argettsinger family.
In this episode of the History ofMotorsports, host Rick Huey from
the International Motor RacingResearch Center interviews legendary
(00:23):
racing driver, Hurley Haywood.
Hurley details his early family backgroundand upbringing in Illinois, where
he developed a passion for driving.
His formal education took him fromBoston to Vermont, and finally
Florida, where he met PeterGregg, sparking his racing career.
After transitioning frommotorcycles to autocrossing with
a Corvette, Hurley impressedGregg and joined his racing crew.
(00:44):
With support from his father, Hurleypursued professional racing, leading
to significant accomplishments, suchas winning multiple IMSA championships.
He shares experiences, including histime during the Can Am Series racing a
Porsche 917, and highlights the transitionto driving for other teams and the
disciplined environments they provided.
He reflects on notable races,including his three Le Mans
(01:05):
victories, and his involvement inthe International Race of Champions.
Hurley emphasizes the evolution ofracing into a marketing tool, and
provides insight into the strategicplanning behind modern racing series.
Hurley, can you tell us a little bit aboutyour family background, where you grew up?
Well, I grew up in Chicago, Illinois.
My parents had a home right in the city,and then my grandmother had a big farm
(01:26):
outside the city in Wheaton, Illinois.
So as a youth, Growing up, I hada lot of opportunity to explore
driving all sorts of vehicles fromtractors to go karts to driving a
full size car when I was 12 years old.
And we had set up a little course outin one of the fields, so, you know, I
was learning about drift and all thatkind of stuff at a pretty early age.
(01:48):
So, I went off to boarding schoolin the 7th and 8th grade up
to, um, Boston, Massachusetts.
Then I went to prep school up in Vermont.
And then I came down to College, Florida,and that's when, uh, I met Peter Gregg,
and the whole racing thing got started.
Now, was that just a casual meeting,or a Well, when I had graduated from
(02:11):
high school, first I got a motorcycle,and then my mother Started reading
all these reports about how dangerousmotorcycles was, so I was able to wrangle
a motorcycle into a, uh, a Corvette.
And I took the Corvette withme when I went to college.
And I used to race theCorvette in autocrosses all
across the state of Florida.
And I was pretty much unbeatable.
(02:31):
And one weekend we had a, uh, An eventin Jacksonville and Peter Gregg was
there with his race car and it came ona big fancy transport and everybody was
moaning and groaning and I didn't knowwho Peter Gregg was at that point and I
beat him and he came over and introducedhimself and he said you got to be pretty
good to beat me and that's how we becamefriendly and he knew that I was friends.
Kind of interested in racing and I wentwith his crew and helped on the crew to
(02:55):
the races and then when I got to be 21,I had talked my dad into helping support
my racing and he basically agreed todo that, but he put a time limit on it.
He said, I will help you.
finance this program for you for twoyears and after two years is over,
you have to be going successfulenough to continue at the same level
(03:17):
without using any of your funds.
So basically I thought, well, I'm goingto get two years of having a good time
and then I'll go do something morereasonable and the rest is history.
Were you an SCCA member at that time?
No, I was not an SCCA member.
I remember.
I had a regional license in 1969.
I turned 21 in 1969.
But Peter had decided that we wouldrun the six hours of Watkins Plum.
(03:41):
And I said, that's great,but I don't have any license.
He said, well, don'tworry about the license.
You'll get it through NASCAR.
Back then, it was simply, you mailed yourmoney in and you got a NASCAR license.
And once I had the NASCAR license, Iapplied to the FIA and got an FIA license.
And then as long as I had myFIA license, I could race here.
So I arrived in Watkins Glen.
Really, I mean, this is one of myfirst races, and the SCCA people
(04:05):
here were just having a fit.
Peter said, don't worry about it.
He's fine, and I'll takefull responsibility for him.
And we won the race, and we've beenwinning races at the Glen ever since.
Then I went off into the military.
I went to Vietnam at the end of 1969.
I was over there for a little over a year.
Came back in 71, and then in 71,Peter and I decided that we would
(04:29):
run for the entire IMSA championship.
That was the first year of IMSA.
We had a 914 6, which I actually owned.
And the deal was, I owned the car,and then Peter would do all of the
preparation and end of the races,and I would co drive with him.
He paid me to drive with him.
That was the giant killer.
We were racing in the 2.
5 liter class that was under,and then there was over,
(04:51):
which was the big Corvettes.
And we were so good that we were beatingthe Corvettes on a pretty regular basis.
And Peter and I co won the,uh, IMSA championship in 71.
And then in 72, then we wentover, we switched to 9 11.
Peter was racing in theCan Am back then, in 72.
So he basically gave me theresponsibility of running the race.
the shorter races to tryto win the championship.
(05:14):
So I won the championshipoutright in 72, driving a 911.
At that period of time,Super V was coming along.
Uh, was that anythingyou were interested in?
Well, I was really not targeting.
But Fred Opr asked me if I would driveone of his cars out in California, and
I said sure, I'd love the opportunity.
(05:36):
I don't really remember the years, butit was mid 70s I think, and I promptly
went out and won a couple races.
But there wasn't a budget to continueon, so I really didn't explore that
much more than just a couple races.
But the couple races I did run, Iwould either won them or missed them.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your jump into Can Am?
(05:56):
That's a big jump from a 911.
Well, Peter, of course,had the Can Am car in 1972.
And he had a couple wrecksand he didn't really enjoy it.
So he came to me and he said, Wouldyou like to run the Can Am series?
He said, I think you havethe ability to run it.
In hindsight, I really hadvery little years of racing
(06:19):
to qualify me to race in 917.
I think it was just a crafty way of himto get somebody to sell us this car to.
So, the first three race carsthat Brumos had were my cars.
The 914 I owned, the 911that we raced in 72 I owned.
And this 917 that I raced in 1973, I own.
So those are the only three race carsthat I've owned, and Brumos has all
(06:43):
those cars back in our collection.
To get back to your point, I acceptedthat role, and was really excited about
it, and went into it just as a total.
as far as that kind ofperformance in that kind of a car.
This was a car that had huge horsepower.
You know, the 911s had, at thatpoint, under 300 horsepower.
(07:03):
I was jumping into a carthat had 1, 100 horsepower.
So there was a little bit ofa transition period that was
a pretty steep learning curve.
But all the guys really helped me a lot.
In adapting to those cars.
I remember Mark Donahue really tookme under his wing, and Mark was
the most influential person thathad the most direct effect on how
(07:25):
I was able to adapt to those cars.
So he and the Penske crew werevery helpful in our setup and the
philosophy and the sort of howyou drive these cars and what.
And it was a lot of fun.
I was third in the championship.
I got beaten by Mark,George Fulmer, and then me.
So, that was pretty good when you hadguys like Jody Schechter and David Hobbs
and all the rest of the guys that wereracing against you to, you know, have your
(07:48):
rookie year come out third was not so bad.
So, I think that that exposure also gavea little, uh, bit of a foundation to how
I was able to adapt to different racecars that Porsche was watching at that.
Because I think that they liked the ideaof having an American that they could,
you know, switch back and forth indifferent programs that they were running.
(08:08):
Somebody that they could feelcomfortable with and trust.
Just to go back to the Can Am car, theyeven had an adjustable wheelbase on them?
No.
Do I remember that?
Well, no.
They did not have an adjustable.
The 917 10, which is what I had,was a short wheelbase car when the
30, and Donahue ran that car in 72.
And in 73, Porsche made the 91730, which was exclusive to Penske.
(08:33):
And that car put everybody else on thetrailer because that was a long wheelbase
car, had a different aero package on it.
They were tubular construction.
Mm hmm.
Tubes.
When I look at my car now, You know, Iwas just a stupid young kid to drive that
car as fast as we were doing it, becauseif you ever had a frontal impact with
one of those cars, it was gonna hurt.
There wasn't a lot of substance up there.
(08:54):
You sat between two 50gallon tanks of gasoline.
It was, it was a prettyhairy ride, as I remember it.
As I said, I've still got that car.
And, uh, We race it occasionally andI am very respectful for that car.
You know, it's just a wonderfulpiece of machinery in it.
But it's also pretty frighteningif you let it get away from you.
(09:17):
You explained or mentioned that Petershifted to BMW for one or two seasons.
Is that a political thing?
Yeah, it was totally political.
Peter was used to getting What he wanted.
Porsche wouldn't give him what he wanted.
And he said, well, if you don't gimmewhat I want, I'm gonna go race for BMW.
And he did.
During the time that he was racinghim for BMWI was racing for VA polock
(09:39):
in the transient with the 9 3 4.
Peter was, you know, he was went raceswith the BMW and then that's when the
factory came over with Ook and RonniePeterson and Zi was driving for.
So they, they were fairly seriousand they had their, uh, headquarters
here in Hueytown, Alabama.
That's where the factory team was based.
(10:01):
And they ran a really stout program.
And then in 78, Peterwent back to Porsche.
Because, you know, Porsche thenrealized how big of a threat
the BMW was to their dominance.
And they wanted Peter back.
So that was just one short year.
You know, Peter was passed away in 1981.
And then in 1983, I hada very serious accident.
(10:23):
I had won Le Mans in 83.
I came back, I was up in most sportand had a bad accident, broke my leg.
And it was a serious break.
And basically the bottom line was thatI did not have the strength to push
the clutch down on a Porsche back then.
That was just on the cusp ofwhen the 962s were coming.
I had won Le Mans in 956, which is thepredecessor of the 962, but that car
(10:48):
was not allowed to race in IMSA untilthe wheelbase was extended so the wheels
would be behind the front center line.
So basically I was out of luck and justsaid, well, you know, I'm going to have
to sit it out until my leg gets backtogether again, which was two years.
And I got a call from Tullius andhe said, in our cars you don't
have to push the clutch down.
(11:09):
He said, I'd like to continue.
Have you come drive for our team?
That relationship lasted five years.
I drove with the Jags for two yearsor three years, and then I drove
for him with the Audi program.
And he was a great guy.
A lot of people didn'tlike Bob, but I liked him.
He and I never had a crossword.
I was always kind of a little rebellious.
(11:29):
You know, you had to do theuniform thing on that team.
You had to be dressed in a uniformevery time, and Bob was very Explicit
about, you know, white shoes, whitesocks, white shorts, green belt, gold
army type style belt buckle, whiteshirt, you know, the whole nine yards.
And I would always have one thing thatwas not quite up to team standard.
(11:50):
Different colored belts or aslightly different shade of sock
or, you know, something like that.
And he never said it.
I knew he saw it, buthe never said anything.
It was a nice relationship withhim, and I really liked the
team, and I liked the discipline.
And, you know, Bob was one of thefirst guys that really brought
professionalism up to a standardthat's now enjoyed by everybody.
(12:10):
He walked down Pit Lane in the Grand Amranks, or IMSA, or whatever it is, and
the team and the philosophy that youhave with these teams, uniforms, detail,
preparation, all was started by Bob.
To some extent, Peter and AlHobart were part of that, but
Bob truly has really brought thatdiscipline to sports car racing.
(12:31):
And the preparation therewas always excellent.
I mean, I know one of his mechanicsused to work on Air Force One.
So, that's got to be second to none.
Talk a little bit about someof the prototype cars and
their differences, I guess.
The things that stood out about them.
You're talking about GTP?
Yeah.
The GTP car is basically, youknow, I drove the Jaguars.
(12:52):
Yeah, that had the Hewlin, isthat what made the shifting?
Yeah, it had a Hewlin gearbox.
Just rev it up and And shift.
Basically the same principlesas our Daytona prototypes.
It's a non synchromeshed gearbox.
You had that car, you had the962, which was a fantastic car.
You had the Ford Puma.
The Probe, which I droveon a couple of occasions.
The Nissan, which I drove on a coupleof occasions, which was like a nightmare
(13:15):
before it went on to Goodyear tires.
But of those cars, the 962 was theCadillac of that genre of cars.
It was very easy to drive it, that's whyso many people were able to drive it.
It was a very customerfriendly car, up to a point.
And once it got to that point, thenthe real pros were able to shine
(13:36):
and bring it to the next level.
Most of the guys that had thosecars had ran private teams.
There was an owner, like a BruceLovin or a Bob Aiken or Rob Dyson,
you know, somebody like that.
who drove the car, was relativelycompetitive, and then they would
hand it over to their pro driver, andthe pro drivers would race together.
So it worked out, it was a really nice waythat it all worked out, similar to what
(13:58):
the initial concept was with the Grand Am.
And with the Daytona prototype, is you getan owner, and a pro guy, and Everything
would go great, but the thing that sortof threw that whole thing in the waste
basket was when Brian Redmond brought CarlHaas, when Carl Haas was thinking about
building a car and Carl said, well, hesaid, I know how we can win all the races.
(14:19):
And Brian said, well, how do we do that?
And Carl said, well, I'llhire two professional drivers.
That was the end of that.
So what happened at that point wasthat the guys that were really.
Had a lot of money, had twocars, one a pro car and one an
amateur car that they could drive.
So, it all worked itself outand it was fantastic racing.
That was probably an era that willnever be duplicated again because
(14:41):
of the incredible exposure thatCampbell Cigarettes gave us with R.
J.
Reynolds.
The individual manufacturerswere in it and each one of those
individual manufacturers werespending tremendous amounts of money
supporting teams in that series.
We are trying to build that back up.
with the Daytona prototypes.
It's beginning to work for GrandAm because more and more people are
(15:02):
becoming interested in these carsand they're getting more sponsors
involved, and when the sponsors getinvolved then it's going to be good
for everybody because everybody's goingto get a spin off of what they do.
So, it's marching its way back becausesports car racing has been so fragmented
in the last ten years and it's Fantasticthat the Grand Am and the France family
have got this desire to see sports carracing work in this country and work, not
(15:27):
just the short term, but work on the longterm with a real intelligent, well thought
out business plan where people can say,okay, this is what we're going to do.
This is the graph line of accelerationthat these cars are going to have
and it's not going to change forfive years or for X number of years.
So people are confident in spending themoney knowing that they're not going
(15:47):
to have to spend the same kind of moneythe next year to have a better piece.
The rules remain stabilized.
So that's an importantconsideration to have.
Another thing that sort of dovetailsoff that kind of thinking is that
when I raced in their 70s and 80s,You know, the racing was a hugely
important development scale for Porsche.
They used what they learned on theracetrack in their street cars.
(16:11):
So when they wanted to try something,they'd try it on the race car.
If it worked on the race carin a racing situation, then
it would work on a street car.
Nowadays, that isn't really done anymore,because a computer analysis does that
much more efficiently than a race car can.
So what does racing become now,in the eyes of the company?
It becomes How you marketwhat you're doing in racing
(16:32):
to help you sell automobiles.
So, that's something that the Grand Amguys are doing well because it's allowing
individual teams to come into it with,uh, Lexus motors, Ferrari motors, Porsche
motors, Ford motors, Chevrolet motors,Pontiac motors, all these different
combinations, and not have to spendtens of millions, hundreds of millions.
(16:55):
In Audi's case, I mean, Audi's spendingjust unbelievable amounts of money with
these prototypes, you know, for what?
You look at it, it's kind of stupid.
And if you had to defend thatposition, which is one of the reasons
why Porsche's done it, is becauseit simply does not make sense.
financial sense to getin it at this level.
(17:15):
When you can do something like Grand Amand Daytona prototypes, which will win the
races overall for 10 cents on the dollar.
And there's, there's a limitednumber of chassis builders for it.
So that also adds to the savings, sir.
Yep.
And you, your manufacturers come intoit and they sell one car and that car
(17:35):
is going to be, X number of dollars andthe 10th car that they sell is going to
be the same amount of money, but they'reable to amortize that development cost
over 10 car or 15 car, 20 car program.
And same thing with the engines.
The engines are basically submitted toGrand Am their Grand Am looks at it.
They say, okay, yeah, this is good.
No, this is not good.
(17:56):
And so everybody's pretty confidentthat the engine formulas will remain.
relatively equal regardless ofwhat power plant you're using.
With our team, with Brumhaus, we use a 3.
6 liter Porsche motor.
It's the smallest motorin the whole field.
We're down on torque, which helps youget from point A to point B quickly.
Our horsepower is equal to everybodyelse's, but it's the torque that hurts us.
(18:19):
But you know, that's part ofour package because we're able
to weigh a little bit less and.
Certainly if we need more there, wehave to negotiate with it, but the
negotiation is not a black and white,there's always room for adjustment.
Early you mentioned the Audi, tell usabout that four wheel drive Audi car,
I know you had one race here that,did you do the whole race yourself?
(18:39):
Yeah, I, I got into, uh, Scott Goodyearwas, uh, Scott was new to the team.
I was having a great battle andjust didn't want to give it up
at the pit stop, so I stayed in.
And the Audi, that was really thefirst time that I had been with a
factory team that was excessive.
Anything that we wanted, we could have.
(18:59):
I mean, if I said, hey guys, you know,I want to have wood paneling on the
dashboard, I mean, the next race I'dhave wood paneling on the dashboard.
It was like a driver's dream.
And the cars themselveswere absolutely fantastic.
I mean, just, it was just a reallynice atmosphere to be able to work
in that kind of situation whereanything you wanted was possible.
(19:21):
Now, was that Tullius?
That was Tullius.
Ran that program.
And we mentioned marketinga little while ago.
They're still using video from those daysto market the Audi all wheel drive now.
So, it really stood outin history, I think.
We came into those things with thisfunny looking sedan, and everybody was
laughing at us until our first race.
We just hammered everybody.
You know, the all wheel drive is certainlysomething that has found its way into lots
(19:46):
of different types of production cars now.
It's just as a benefitthat is, um, well worth it.
and Audi was the one thatkind of pioneered that system.
In a race car, it was just phenomenal.
That's why they basically banned it.
You don't see four wheeldrive cars anymore.
We mentioned Le Mans quite a bit.
Could we recap your Le Mans victories?
Well, Le Mans, I've hada good record at Le Mans.
(20:08):
And of course, every time I'vebeen to Le Mans, I've been on a
factory team, which helps immensely.
So my finishing record there is good.
Got three wins there.
People always want to compareDaytona, and other than the length
of the race, there is no comparison.
Daytona is a much more difficultrace to win, and to drive in.
For one thing, you've got 12hours of darkness at Daytona.
(20:31):
You only have maybe 5 hours ofdarkness at Le Mans, because
it gets dark there so late.
In Europe, The drivingis much more disciplined.
The guys that are driving the slowcars know they're driving the slow
cars and stay the hell out of the way.
It's a very, very cut and dry.
If you're a slow car,you stay on the left.
If you're a fast car, you go on the right.
(20:52):
Everybody's looking constantly intheir rearview mirrors because back in
the 70s and 80s, the overtaking speedwas sometimes 70, 80 miles an hour.
So you went right.
You really fast by somebody's slow car.
Nowadays, the difference is not so great,but even so, it's still very disciplined.
The course is billiardtable smooth and very fast.
(21:13):
I mean, average lap time speed is165 miles an hour around there.
So, you really, you know, You've got toconcentrate tremendously, and it's long.
I mean, for a new guy going there, ittakes a long time to sort of figure
out the nuances of the racetrack.
But it's the Super Bowl,as far as the tradition.
Even though Daytona is the same length,I think it's got Deeper roots than
(21:36):
Daytona, but I find winning Daytona muchmore gratifying than winning Le Mans.
Number one, it's in my backyard,which makes it my home track.
And I've been really successfuldown there, so it's like going
home every time I go to Daytona.
And to be able to win down there on sucha regular basis makes it even better.
I like going to Daytona better thanI do going to Le Mans because Le
(21:59):
Mans is halfway around the world.
But, it's so seeped in historythat as a racing driver and as a
sports car racer, I think everybodydeserves to do at least one Le Mans
just to sort of take in that wholeatmosphere of the Le Mans experience.
International Race of Champions.
And that was really an experience.
You know, I had read about IROC andwhat a big deal it was to get invited.
(22:23):
And when I was invited,I was just blown away.
It was really, it was a cool deal.
The cars were completely alien to me asfar as how they handled the stock car.
Philosophy of drafting and positioningyourself on a racetrack to take
advantage of drafting was a completeart that I knew nothing about.
And Dale Earnhardt took me under his wingbecause I think he felt sorry for me.
(22:45):
He said, you know, thisis what you need to do.
And I listened to him because Iknew, you know, Dale was the best.
And Dale was in everysingle IROC that I was in.
He only told me just so much.
He wouldn't tell me everything.
But he told me enough to keepmyself safe and out of trouble.
Not to screw somebody else up with amove that you might make and not think
(23:07):
about what the consequence might be.
But it was a, it was a thrill and beingable to come from a different form of
racing, sports car racing, and one go intothat sort of stock car type of automobile.
Racing with Dale Earnhardt, MarkMartins, the Rusty Wallaces, with
Larry Arendyke, Michael Andretti,and all the guys from IndyCar.
(23:28):
It was a really big thrilland it was tons of fun.
I really enjoyed my,uh, I did it four times.
My best finish out of thosefour times I think was fourth.
I could have won the race if I justhad not gotten greedy, but I just
tried to do that pass and got hungout and that was the end of that, but
it was, it was a thrill and a treat.
(23:55):
This episode is brought to youin part by the International
Motor Racing Research Center.
Its charter is to collect,share, and preserve the history
of motorsports, spanningcontinents, eras, and race series.
The center's collection embodiesthe speed, drama, and camaraderie
of amateur and professional motorracing throughout the world.
The Center welcomes serious researchersand casual fans alike to share stories of
(24:17):
race drivers, race series, and race carscaptured on their shelves and walls and
brought to life through a regular calendarof public lectures and special events.
To learn more about the Center, visit www.
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org.
This episode is also brought to you bythe Society of Automotive Historians.
They encourage research into anyaspect of automotive history.
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The SAH actively supports thecompilation and preservation of papers.
Organizational records, print ephemera andimages to safeguard, as well as to broaden
and deepen the understanding of motorizedwheeled land transportation through
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For more informationabout the SAH, visit www.
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org.
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