July 2, 2025 • 38 mins
The Journey of Recovery interview series highlights the stories of Montanans with lived experiences of trauma, substance use and mental health struggles and who are on the path of recovery. These interviews share how people can move forward and empower others to do the same.
In this episode, Mountain Pacific’s Sarah Byrnes interviews Mike McManus as he shares his experience as a veteran using recovery services and his work to provide recovery services through the Veteran’s Navigation Network. He also talks about the courage it takes to ask for help.
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Episode Transcript
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Sarah Byrnes (00:02):
Announcer, one chapter does not define a
person's whole story. Welcome toour journey of recovery series
where we talk with Montanans whohave lived experience of trauma,
substance use and struggles withmental health, about where they
are now the Substance Abuse andMental Health Services
Administration, or SAMHSAdefines recovery as a process of
(00:23):
change through which individualsimprove their health and
wellness, live a self directedlife and strive to reach their
full potential. Join us to learnabout community members in
recovery as they share theirstory and the steps they are
taking to help others on theirjourney. You Well, thank you so
much for joining me and doingthis interview today. And I just
(00:47):
wanted to start off with a quickintroduction, if you could.
Michael McManus (00:52):
Yeah, sure. So.
Mike McManus, I'm the programmanager for veterans navigation
network. We're a veterannonprofit in Billings Montana,
but if we I mean help veteransnationwide, I mean primarily
Montana and northern Wyoming,but we've helped veterans
nationwide. Originally from milecity, Montana, but I was gone
(01:13):
for 33 years, you know, comingback to visit family and that
kind of thing. But retired fromthe Air Force, worked in the
private sector for a little bit,was very fortunate enough to
find my calling, which was as aCounty Veteran Service Officer
in California for VenturaCounty, California, we had
40,000 veterans and aboutanother 10,000 active duty guard
(01:36):
and reserve and it was basicallyhelping All of them and their
families, you know, getconnected with federal benefits,
state benefits. But a lot of,you know, local nonprofit, faith
based, that kind of thing. Soanyways, very fortunate there,
but in August of 2020, right inthe middle or June of 2020,
right in the middle of theworld, you know, going crazy.
(01:58):
Moved here with my Californiawife, so she's still getting
used to Montana, but took 18months off. Needed a break and
but I got involved withorganizations like dog tech
buddies, so they do psychservice dogs for veterans,
horses, bears, healing, greatequine therapy in the Billings
(02:21):
area. But then was fortunateenough to get hooked up with
Blake Furman, who's the founder,an executive director for
veterans navigation network, andI've been working for VNN for
the last four years. So that'skind of me in a nutshell.
Sarah Byrnes (02:40):
That's great.
Thank you. Yeah, I was gonna sayVeteran Service is a little it's
near and dear to my heart of anolder brother who was 82nd
airborne, and then he wentdirectly into the National Guard
when he got out after he wasstop lost in Afghanistan, so he
was in Iraq for the firstelections. And, yeah, he's got a
lot of stories, but it's taken along time for him to open up
(03:05):
about them.
Michael McManus (03:07):
Yep, yeah, that that's fairly, you know,
typical. And you know, as faras, like, not, you know,
necessarily, talking to or, youknow, telling his story, if you
will. I mean, I spent 19 monthsin Korea, which was a long time,
pretty real, but nothing likeYugoslavia, which was back in 99
(03:28):
and just doing some site surveysand looking at where we could
put people in planes and thingslike that. Some were in some
really nice locations, and somewere in not nice locations at
all. Then, of course, when thewar started, and, I mean, just
yeah, some pretty horrendousstuff. And then Kuwait and Iraq,
you know when oh two, and thenoh three. So yeah, I get, you
(03:51):
know where it's coming from, andthat's who we work with on a
daily basis as veterans. And,you know, certainly seven
service members. And being inMontana, it's primarily some Air
Guard, but a lot of Army Guard,yeah, but the family members as
well. So yeah, we, we, we keeppretty busy.
Sarah Byrnes (04:09):
I'm sure you do.
Yeah, absolutely, when you meetnew people, I think it's
probably different, a little bitdifferent when you're like a
military service person, and Iknow that there's been a sordid
history with coming back fromdifferent wars and conflicts,
with how people in the UnitedStates like React, or the public
react, basically. So what, whatkind of reactions do you get
(04:31):
when you tell them about yourhistory or your and your
experiences?
Michael McManus (04:37):
Yeah, me and you're right. It is very
interesting. You know, youlisten to our I mean, my dad is
Vietnam area. Didn't serve inVietnam. He served in the Army
and whatnot, and came back andhe was landing in, well, first
San Francisco, you know, ofcourse, they told him, don't
wear your uniform and stuff likethat. And he said, Yeah, wrong.
He wore his uniform. He says hehe. Didn't really experience any
(05:01):
issues there, because they kept,you know, everyone kind of, you
know, the GIs that were comingback, separate from everyone
else, as much as I could. Andwhen he came into Montana, he
said there were no issues. So Ithink it's, you know, that's
great, just certain locations inthe US, probably the same ones
that, or maybe those a littleless patriotic even today, but
(05:24):
that's Yeah, neither here northere, so, but I think really,
you know, we've come a long wayafter the Gulf War, you know,
had the big parade, you know,and everything was done back in
91 and I think that's whenthings started to change in some
ways for the better, some waysnot quite so much. Because you
figure, you know, Gone were thedays of the huge standing
(05:49):
armies, you know, just ingeneral. I mean, we reduced a
lot of our troop strength.
Certainly no more, you know,drafts and things like that. So
I think the American, you know,public appreciates and respects
the military, you know, by andlarge, but I think they don't
necessarily understand what thatmeans. Because now, basically,
(06:12):
you know, for the last 25 years,it's definitely been that all
volunteer force of 4 million ishpeople that have just been
deployed again and again andagain. And I don't, I think
we're just really coming tounderstand what that actually
means. And even though peopleare, you know, appreciative of
the service, you know, you getbusy with your own life and and
(06:37):
the dog to the vet and the kidsto school and the car to oil
change and things like that. Andyou really don't necessarily
take time to consider it, unlessyou have any skin in the game,
you know, like yourself, whereyou've got a family member who
had served in the military. AndI always view, you know,
Memorial Day is kind of thatgage on just that public
(06:59):
sentiment. And, I mean, fordecades now, it's really been
about the three day weekend andthe barbecues, and not about the
true meaning of, you know,Memorial Day. I mean, I really
think it should be on a, youknow, a Wednesday during a
school year. And, you know, thethe schools are let out and they
attend, you know, the differentmemorials and different things
(07:23):
like that, I think, to really,you know, bring home the point
that, hey, this is the realmeaning behind Memorial Day and
things like that, you know. Andsome people will even say, you
know, Happy Memorial Day. Andit's, I mean, I try to remember
the sentiment behind it. Andnothing happy about Memorial
Day. Anyone who's in theservice, many people who are you
(07:44):
know in the service lost someoneor many someones. So yeah, not
exactly a happy day. It's nicethat most of America can, you
know, celebrate with, you know,baseball games and barbecues,
and that's great, because that'swhat, you know the military is
there to guarantee, is that, youknow, life goes on Back on the
(08:05):
home front kind of a thing. Butit would just, you know, it
would be interesting. Or maybe,you know, if the American public
knew what actually was, youknow, goes into serving in the
military, whether it says themember or as a child, and
certainly as a spouse,supporting that military member.
Sarah Byrnes (08:29):
Yeah, my brother has a memorial bracelet he wears
that has the names of the Fallendress. Yeah, from his group when
he was over in Afghanistan.
Yeah, so. And I know he poststheir military photos every
year, and I try to share it tokind of like you were saying,
like, show people what it reallyis. He's, yeah, that's, well,
you know, his day for that,yeah,
Michael McManus (08:52):
oh yeah for, I mean, absolutely. I mean Armed
Forces Day, hey, you know, goout and thank a member for for
serving our veterans day. Sure,you betcha, but yeah, Memorial
Day just a little differentstory. Although I do have to
admit, this year we had a greatgroup here locally in Billings.
Wow. Actually was the theBillings Rotary, but Ken
(09:13):
Callahan and his hoodies forheroes, and they say we're going
to have a Memorial Day parade.
And was like a parade a memorialday. But you know, the more I
came to kind of, I mean, thecommunity, it was turned out
amazingly, and they dedicatedthis wonderful monument and
things like that to our Iraq andAfghan killed in action. But it
(09:37):
was kind of almost thatcelebration of life type of a
thing that even though, yes, Imean, we miss them, and
certainly, you know, theirfamilies certainly do, but
really, you know, we read theirnames, we remember them, and by
doing so. They're not reallythey're not really gone, if you
(10:01):
will. You know you die once,when you physically pass you die
a second time when maybe youknow the memory starts to fade,
but when people you know nolonger can recall your name, you
know you're truly dead, andthat's not the case at all with
you know, certainly, you know,in Billings reading the names of
(10:23):
the 3839 that you know werekilled in Iraq, Afghanistan. And
you know, as long as we remembertheir names, you know they they
live on. So it was, it wasactually a very poignant and
very meaningful Memorial Dayparade. And who would have
thunk.
Sarah Byrnes (10:43):
yeah, that's cool.
Yeah, that's great.
Michael McManus (10:45):
Yeah, it was very good, you know. And of
course, you know, afterwards,yes, the, you know, the free
baseball game and everythingelse you've got all that. But
yeah, I think it definitelymeant a lot to everyone that
attended, especially thosefamilies. Yeah, it was pretty
cool.
Sarah Byrnes (10:58):
So you said that you you were in the military for
a long time, and then and youcame back and kind of found your
place. Were there any recoveryservices that you used when you
first got out of the militarythat really impacted you?
Michael McManus (11:12):
You Well, I retired in 1980 1987 I came in
in 1997 retired in May of 2007but even that, you know, you
think about like, oh my gosh,that's, it's been a while. You
know, it's interesting becauseit's military culture. You just
don't, you don't seek help forany number of reasons. And it
(11:38):
was weird because even thoughfrom 2010 through 2020 I was a
County Veteran Service Officer,and I'm referring veterans to
the Vet Center, to VA healthcareor other, you know, behavioral
health related providers, youknow, echoing therapy, all of
(12:00):
this kind of stuff. Hey, yougot, you know, you need to do
this. And then we'll, we'll kindof the other part of that is,
hey, we're going to get youcompensation for that PTSD or
that TBI, as well as all thephysical stuff. And yet, I'm not
doing it myself. And, I mean,when I had come, I mean, I had,
you know, the Dear John letterduring, you know, was it may
(12:23):
have all three, you know, kindof a thing. So, alright, that
sucks, came back, got divorced,that kind of thing. PCs,
changed, you know, movedpermanent bases. Went from hill
or Air Force Base in California,in Utah to port Wayne to Navy
base in Ventura, California,doing so with the Seabees, Navy
(12:47):
Seabees, and talking with fellowvets and helping them out, and
not helping myself, Basically,and my future wife. Now, wife
was like, You need to get yourtogether. Or, you know, there
(13:08):
will be another ex, you know,Mrs. McManus kind of a thing.
And so I, you know, eventually,and I knew exactly who to reach
out to. And I mean, because Isent other veterans to but, you
know, so, yeah, I eventuallyreached out to the Vet Center in
(13:28):
Ventura, California. And, youknow, Vet Centers are part of
the VA kind of, sort of, theyfall within VA healthcare, but
they're their own entity. Youdon't even have to be enrolled
in VA healthcare to use them,because really they would, I
mean, you could be on activeduty and use a Vet Center. Of
course, that's because far toomany veterans die by suicide.
(13:53):
But anyway, yeah, started goingto the Vet Center. Knew everyone
at the Vet Center, because we'dseen them work together and that
kind of thing. So that was, youknow, they're like, You sure?
You know, we could do a youcould see it. We could refer you
out to a community provider,someone you didn't know. I said,
heck, you know, what the heck?
So yeah, started going there andseeing my counselor. She was
(14:18):
amazing. Would call me on mywhen I needed to be but work
through stuff didn't allow me tominimize things because of which
I think is pretty typical forvets, where they minimize their
experience, you know, becausesomeone else had it worse than
them, which may very well be thecase, but you still went with,
you know, what you went through,and it most definitely had an
(14:40):
impact on you. But yeah, I hadto learn where, you know, not to
minimize the impact on me. Butanyway, that's kind of where it
started. And there was, youknow, certainly talking to had a
really good psychiatrist throughthe VA. He was a. A Navy. But I
didn't hold it against him. Hewas actually a navy flight
(15:04):
surgeon and Navy Reserves. Andso he really got the, you know,
the clinical aspect of it, butalso the military aspect of it,
and was able to bring thosethrough and not very, you know,
few providers have that evenwithin the VA, but he certainly
did, and was instrumental injust explaining PTSD and the
(15:24):
physical effects on the brain,and you know, the really, the
importance of sleep restorativesleep, not just, you know,
falling asleep or taking a napand things like that, where your
brain actually does not, youknow, enter kind of slow wave
(15:45):
length and actually restoreitself, because most vets are
operating at, you know, thatadrenaline junkie fuel, you
know, level or whatever, andthere's never any rest, and you
cannot operate it at that levelfor extended periods of time.
It's helpful when you need it,but when you no longer need it,
(16:07):
yeah, it's not helpful, and youliterally will just wear
yourself out. So anyway, he, hewas phenomenal. There's all the
physical stuff, of course, itcomes from service and that. So
you just, you know, layer thaton top of whatever, maybe mental
health stuff you might have, orsubstance use, because that's,
of course, our favorite way tocope is, you know, with drinking
(16:28):
and that kind of thing. And, youknow, but I was, I was
fortunate, because I found, youknow, coming originally from
Montana, and growing up for alittle bit of my life on a
cattle ranch during Joliet inColumbus, and my grandfather
really instilling the love ofhorses and that therapeutic
(16:52):
value that horses bring and andknowing that, and you know, was
fortunate enough, There's areally good range of Hope equine
therapy there in Ohio,California. But I also
volunteered at a horse rescue upthere, California, coastal horse
rescue. They just did, I meangreat things. And I just when I
came here, you know, I wasseeking out those horse people,
(17:16):
if you will. And that's wherethat horse of spirits healing
and a great program here, closeto Billings, it was just, you
know, very fortunate. And Imoved from the Vet Center there
in Ventura to the Billings vetcenter here, very fortunate to
have just an excellentcounselor, therapist, whatever
(17:37):
the case might be, who, after 25years of service, he left us
all, but, you know, so I've gota new counselor, but after 25
years, he had definitely earnedhis burgers and wish him all
the, all the, all the best. Butit was still like, Damn, you
know, yeah, he was, but that's,you know, hey, that's, that's,
(18:01):
that's life, that's the way itgoes. So, but, yeah, so the Vet
Center is very helpful, as wellas those kind of ancillary, or,
you know, not those primarymeans for mental health, you
know, like the equine therapyand things like that, art
therapy, yeah, just those kindsof things.
Sarah Byrnes (18:24):
I sympathize.
It's, it's hard when you findsomeone good that you really
connect with. It's hard when,yeah, it's hard when they're you
want the best for them, butyou're also sad
Michael McManus (18:35):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, good luck. But, yeah,
anyway,
Sarah Byrnes (18:40):
So in coming back, I know you said you were
pointing people in the rightdirection for services, but not
necessarily doing it yourself.
Was there anyone that you sawcome back and like had really
had a good experience that kindof changed the way you were
looking at it for yourself?
Michael McManus (18:59):
Well, there were many people who, you know,
were going like to the, youknow, the Ventura Vet Center,
and would just rave about theircounselor and things like that.
So I knew what, you know, Iprobably should be doing this,
like, oh, I don't have time. Or,you know, I can handle it, you
(19:22):
know, type of a thing. And it'sinteresting, because I don't
know how many, you know, wehelped just a lot of Vietnam era
vets. And that was another groupthat really helped me. Was a
Vietnam vets of Ventura County,just some really, really good
(19:42):
guys, you know, talking to them,and, you know, listening to what
they had gone through for, well,some of them for decades. Or,
you know, you have the spouse inyour office, and you're talking
about different things aboutwhat you know you're going to
work on, as far as maybe adisability comp claim. And, you
know, the vet will say, Yeah,you know, I think I've handled
(20:04):
things pretty good, you know.
And the wife looks at him like,What are you, you know,
sometimes, you know, a few, aslap on the shoulder and a few,
you know, whatever you know, yousort of put us through hell. I
mean, the kids were scared ofyou. We didn't know if you'd be,
you know, just all that kind ofstuff. And that's like, oh my
gosh, you know, because we canrationalize just about anything
(20:25):
over time. So, you know, theykind of that particular group.
And then just my counselor andwhatnot, and a lot of other
folks, you know, was like, yeah,it's, it's, it's time. And then,
of course, you know, my wife,you know, saying you need to,
you need to work on some things.
There was a lot of, a lot ofrage, you know, especially when
(20:49):
triggered, and I didn't evennecessarily know, I mean, I
could, I wouldn't evennecessarily feel the build up.
It was just Yeah, boom, and, andthen afterwards, not during, but
then afterwards, it's like, wow,that was really stupid. Or, you
know, that could have, I mean,we could have got her, or any
(21:10):
number of things like that. Andit's like, okay, you know, it's,
it's, yeah, I need to work onthis so. And still, oh yeah. And
Sarah Byrnes (21:20):
I was gonna say, a lot of times those situations
come out of your control. Imean, just from watching my
brother, I I feel like I couldsay that, yeah, I've, like, felt
terrible when something'shappened. It was out of
everyone's control, and ittriggered him. So,
Michael McManus (21:36):
oh yeah, for sure. Well, and that's, you
know, I also knew, you know,because I was involved in
Veterans Treatment Court there,which was kind of, it's
basically, you know, vets withservice related traumatic brain
injury, PTSD, things like that.
Who then have, you know, DUI, ormaybe a DV, or an assault, or,
(21:56):
you know, something like that,brandishing a firearm. Like to
brandish it. Usually it's notused in the commission of
anything, because who knowsbetter than a vet, what actually
happens if you fire it? But didthat for nine years, and a lot
of times it was not thoseveterans. It wasn't their second
(22:19):
or third chance. They've hadplenty of chances, but it was
most definitely going to beprobably their last chance
before they got into an accidentand hurt themselves or killed
themselves, or, God forbid,someone else, or DV situation,
that where there was just, youknow, too much violence
(22:44):
involved, which is, I mean, justabout any, any DV situation,
there's too much violenceinvolved, regardless of the
level. But, and he was able todo some amazing things, because
they had to get treatment. Thatwas a whole idea of, you know,
kind of the carrot and the stickyou get treatment. You follow
your the treatment plan, whatthe team comes up with. And I
was on the team along with, youknow, about five, six other
(23:07):
people. You get the treatmentyou need, and
whatever other things that goalong with that. And you can
eventually have that, you knowthat charge expunged, or
whatever the case might be, butreally the main thing is, you've
learned how to cope, certainlymore positively. You've had to
(23:31):
take responsibility, too foryour own actions that, yeah,
whatever you know occurred inthe service and what you're
dealing with now, that can be amitigating factor, but it is
certainly not something thatwould it doesn't change what
happened. You still have to takeresponsibility for it. And
veterans navigation network,we've got a good guy that goes
(23:54):
into our Veterans TreatmentCourt here. They call it camo,
as well as our detentionfacility, largest one in Montana
and outside the prison, andreally works with our veterans
that are in, you know, kind of asimilar situation, trying to
help them out. So I saw, youknow, some of the, you know, you
(24:15):
go to one of those graduations,and there's not a dry eye in the
room, because you know what thatveteran had well, one get an
idea on what they went throughto begin with, and certainly
what they had to accomplish tocome out the other end of that
treatment program. And it'struly remarkable. And it's kind
(24:35):
of like, you know, they can doit. I can do it. We can do it.
No one. You may think you're outthere by yourself, you know, on
an island, but that's not at allthe case. And I mean, the
service is not one where younecessarily ask for help that
it's, you know, it is okay toask for that help, because
you're, you are not the only onethat's going through whatever
(24:57):
the case is. And. That it's okayto ask for help. I It takes a
lot more courage to, you know,seek that help than to try to go
through it on your own. Andthat's what we kind of, you
know, try to convey to veterans,is takes a lot of strength to
ask for help. And because,again, there's that
(25:17):
accountability piece. And, yeah,we can talk about whatever
happened, what you're dealingwith, and try to get you, you
know, some whatever that helpmight look like, but you know,
whatever the resulting behaviorsare, yeah, you're gonna have to
take some accountability forthose as well. So there might be
a little bit of that as well. Soyeah, it's complicated. But,
(25:43):
yeah, as long as you're nottrying to do it alone, you're
gonna work through it. And, youknow, it's a shame, I've got, I
don't know, I got, all kinds ofbut the different bracelets and
on this one here, unfortunately,their first surviving spouses of
vets who have died by suicidethe last year, year and a half
that, you know, working with thesurviving spouses, six, seven of
(26:07):
them. And these are youngwidows. I mean, they're like, 30
years old, 33 years old, andthey've got kids that are two
years old, and maybe, you know,six, nine years old, stuff like
that. And I the with that vet,you know, almost invariably,
maybe there's, I mean, there'speople certainly knew that
(26:28):
something was, you know, the vethad issues, if you will, but
they didn't even know how how toaddress those, or how to ask.
And usually, being direct is thebest way to ask. I mean, you're
not talking to some sunflower,you're talking to a veteran. So
you can, you can ask him youthink about killing yourself or
whatever, and and because youfigure for every, every single
one of these bracelets, soyou're looking at about 135
(26:50):
people that are impacted by thatone suicide. And then when you
look at a state like Montana oreven Wyoming, for that matter,
you being in Laramie. ButAlaska, we rotate 123, because,
frankly, we like to shootourselves, and that's got to
(27:11):
stop. And it's there's a lotthat goes in. There are a few
things we won't be able toaddress elevation and, you know,
the number of dark days andseasonal all that stuff. But
there's a lot that we can do.
Certainly around stigma is bigpart. Ask for help. There are
resources out there. There arepeople that are willing to help.
Obviously, you're morechallenged. I mean, Wyoming. I
(27:32):
mean, if you look at the RockyMountain states, which is where,
you know, that's the number oneregion, these are all huge
states you know that areresource poor. In a lot of
areas, you've got some hubs likeBillings. Montana's a hub for
just about everything, fromCostco to sports, concerts,
medical, you name it. But boy,you get 100 miles outside of
(27:55):
Billings. And wow, there's not awhole lot out there. And
certainly, same thing inWyoming, Alaska. I mean, even
more so so, you know, but that'swhere you have to rely on that
network even more. And soanyway, before I go off on too
much of a tangent, though, Imean, it's really, you know, if,
if you want to isolate, easy todo in these states, but you're
(28:18):
not alone. So there are peopleout there that can help.
Sometimes we just have to becreative in what that help looks
like, just because the distanceis involved in everything else.
Sarah Byrnes (28:30):
Yeah, I learned last year, maybe two years ago,
about the 988, the new suicideprevention hotline, and how they
have that separate, a wholeseparate extension for just
veterans. And that's, I mean,that's telling, if anything, on
how many people, and that, thatpeople, the veterans, are not
alone and needing help, and,yeah, and that they need, and
(28:52):
maybe they might want a specifictype of help, or, like you said,
someone they can connect with.
And I think that's that's going,that's part of the way to
helping. Yeah, helping anyway,yeah, because you can text, you
can call, you can go online. Ohyeah. So I thought all that was
great, especially for rural andfrontier areas, like, oh yeah.
Montana, yeah.
Michael McManus (29:10):
Well, and that, you know, that you bring up
really good point. You weretalking, you know, rural and
urban stuff. Like, there's somany places in Montana that, I
mean, we'd have to have a majorpopulation explosion to get to
urban I mean, we're talkingfrontier kind of things with the
number or, you know, the lack ofpeople per square mile, and
things like that. And, you know,there's technology is something
(29:33):
that we have to leverage andtelemed, you know, may not work
for everybody, but in somecases, it may be all you have,
and it's certainly a lot betterthan others, but not if you
don't have connectivity. So hereare some things that, you know,
VNN is looking as far as like,basically vehicles and
satellite, you know, andbasically meeting these vets
where they're at. So, okay,maybe they don't have
(29:55):
connectivity, but we can bringit to them, you know, kind of a
thing, I think. It's been,always one of the biggest
issues, whether it's inCalifornia, where we had a
fairly population, you know,dense and yet you still had
people who never heard of you,you know, kind of a thing to a
place like Montana, you know,where, okay, maybe I understand
(30:16):
why you haven't heard of theseresources, but we still need to
get that word out there, andwhether it's, you know, Montana
two on one, where you can just,you know, Montana two on
one.org, go online and searchfor any number of things, from
housing to maybe elderlyservices or legal or whatever,
which ideally, because being in,and it's definitely something I
(30:41):
stress is, you know, let's tryto get ahead of these things, or
actually in front of them, youknow, before someone gets the
point where crisis is wherethey're at, and maybe suicide is
an option. And, you know,Montana two and one. And really,
though, I mean, that's a greatresource, but just being
connected, and that's somethingthat we try to do through our
networks is just thatconnection, whether it's kind of
(31:03):
a formal, you know, hey, we'regonna It's a peer mentorship
connection, or, Hey, it's just afun event. We're throwing axes
and eating pizza or whatever thecase might be, or having a
holiday party, or hey, you know,it's an outreach event. And yes,
we're helping, we're talking toyou and get you connected. But
whatever it might be. It's just,you know, making people aware.
(31:26):
And we knew that we werestarting to see some successes
when, you know, we startedgetting veterans were referring
other veterans. And I thinkthat's the biggest thing,
because one, it kind of shows,Alright, hey, there's a trust
level there, and you know whatyou're doing, but also that
they're talking to each other,which is, is is huge, because
(31:49):
that's really the only way we'regoing to address a lot of these
things are, you know, veteranstalking to other veterans about
whatever it might be, as opposedto the standard we'll drink
about our problems, but we won'tnecessarily, you know, do
anything very constructive toaddress those particular issues.
(32:13):
So yeah, it's kind of hearteningwhen we've got vets talking and
referring amongst ourselves andthings like that.
Sarah Byrnes (32:20):
You were talking a lot about spouses helping get
help for veterans, and then alsojust now, veterans helping
veterans. I get what would yousay to either a veteran who
might be considering gettinghelp or those support people who
have veterans in their livesthat maybe they have that
Inkling like you said, somepeople are like, Oh, I think he
(32:42):
had issues, but we didn't reallyknow how to how to approach it.
Yeah, I guess. What advice wouldyou give for them?
Michael McManus (32:49):
Yeah, well, certainly, you know, for the
veteran, kind of, like, whatwe've been talking about is
you're not alone. Reach out. Imean, when you're in the
service, you weren't alone.
You're part of a unit, whateversize that was, you know, 500 or
four whatever it might havebeen. You weren't alone. You're
not alone now. So reach out tothat buddy and not necessarily
get engaged, but just touch baseand let them know what's going
(33:13):
on. So that, I think, is thebiggest thing is you're not
alone. And you might besurprised you start talking to
your buddy and oh, wow, you'regoing through the same stuff or
something similar. For familymembers, you know, a lot of
times they get frustratedbecause their vet's not talking
to them. And I understand that.
(33:35):
I mean, if you're deployingwhatever it is, you're going
through the dark times, and thelight, of course, is whatever
you know is going to be backhome, and you're not going to
mix those two, and you're notgoing to mix those two when you
get back either maybe there'ssome moral injury or whatever.
So you're thinking, Well, I'mnot going to talk to my family
member because I'm ashamed.
They're going to judge me, youknow, all kinds of different
(34:01):
things going on, and that canmake it frustrating, you know,
for the vet, but certainly forthe family member as well, for
that mom who, I mean, their sonor daughter might be 35 years
old, still their child, and theyget frustrated and, you know,
won't talk, or whatever, andit's so, you know, kind of
(34:22):
helping them understand that,okay, the veteran may not talk,
but there are still some thingsthat you can do, or that we can
do, you know, with that veteran,and maybe they get to a
particular point where there isbetter communication. And again,
that, you know, involves, youknow, working with that vet or
bringing along that familymember into one of our social
(34:45):
events, because sometimes theycertainly configure, you know,
feel like they're in it bythemselves as well. And again,
that's just not the case. Sokind of having that what we call
our family connection, which iskind of a. You know, you know
the family, which it could be,you know, spouse or child, but
could be the caregiver as wellof that veteran, because it just
(35:07):
doesn't have to be the, youknow, the mental health
component could be thosephysical conditions where you've
got that caregiver caring fortheir, their veteran, or
whatever. And could be a verydemanding, very tough and
helping that caregiver navigatemaybe VA for potential
resources, whether it's, I mean,you know something for the
(35:27):
veteran or housing modificationor vehicle modification, or what
training, whatever it might be,but probably respite in a
support group, most certainly,because pretty soon, that can
become your whole life. And wewant to make sure that, you
know, no, there's there's stilllight outside of that, as
important as it is, there'sstill life outside of being that
(35:48):
caregiver to that veteran. Soanyway, that's really, you know,
for the family members, isyou're again, you're not in it
alone either. And let us connectyou with some resources to kind
of help with that quality oflife, both for your veteran, but
also for that family member aswell.
Sarah Byrnes (36:09):
Well, is there anything else that you'd like to
add before we wrap up here?
Michael McManus (36:13):
You know some notes? I really think you know,
it's just, there's again. Imean, it takes a lot of courage
to to seek help. There's peopleout there that are willing to
give it. I mean, if you had abroken leg, you're certainly
going to, you know, if someonecould help carry you to your car
(36:33):
and then help get you to thehospital. All right, you allow
them to do that if you're in aparticular point of crisis, you
know, with some mental health orjust really being overwhelmed,
and you don't think that, youknow, there's any way tomorrow
is going to be any better. Youneed to talk to somebody,
(36:54):
because you'd be amazed at justthe level of help that is out
there and the people that wantto help. So my really last
parting thing is, I was king fora day, I would ask, I would have
every person in Montana take QPRor Question, Persuade, Refer.
(37:16):
It's a suicide awarenessprevention training, very simple
hour, and a half depending uponthe group. But really, you know
question ask that person. Itdoesn't have to be a veteran,
really, anyone you know, and youcan be direct, depending upon
the individual. But ultimately,it gets down to, are you going
to kill yourself and thenpersuade Hey, you know what?
(37:37):
Maybe we need to take a ride tothe ER, or let's call 988 if
you're a vet, 988 press one. Butthen also refer. I think a lot
of people don't ask the questionbecause they're afraid of the
answer, which is understandablyso, especially if it's not
something you're very familiarwith. But who do you refer
locally that can actually help?
So all I'd ask is, you know,anyone out there, if you got
(38:04):
questions about QPR to ask,certainly VNN, and we can help
you with that, because it's agreat boots on the ground,
grassroots level, you know, kindof thing that can save lives.
Absolutely,
Sarah Byrnes (38:22):
yeah, well, thank you so much for taking your time
and doing this with me. Iappreciate it so much.
Michael McManus (38:28):
Yeah, absolutely, I enjoyed it. If you
need anything else, just let meknow, sir, thank you all right,
take care. Bye, bye, bye.
Announcer, one chapter does not define a
person's whole story. Welcome toour journey of recovery series
where we talk with Montanans whohave lived experience of trauma,
substance use and struggles withmental health, about where they
are now the Substance Abuse andMental Health Services
Administration, or SAMHSAdefines recovery as a process of
(00:23):
change through which individualsimprove their health and
wellness, live a self directedlife and strive to reach their
full potential. Join us to learnabout community members in
recovery as they share theirstory and the steps they are
taking to help others on theirjourney. You Well, thank you so
much for joining me and doingthis interview today. And I just
(00:47):
wanted to start off with a quickintroduction, if you could.
Michael McManus (00:52):
Yeah, sure. So.
Mike McManus, I'm the programmanager for veterans navigation
network. We're a veterannonprofit in Billings Montana,
but if we I mean help veteransnationwide, I mean primarily
Montana and northern Wyoming,but we've helped veterans
nationwide. Originally from milecity, Montana, but I was gone
(01:13):
for 33 years, you know, comingback to visit family and that
kind of thing. But retired fromthe Air Force, worked in the
private sector for a little bit,was very fortunate enough to
find my calling, which was as aCounty Veteran Service Officer
in California for VenturaCounty, California, we had
40,000 veterans and aboutanother 10,000 active duty guard
(01:36):
and reserve and it was basicallyhelping All of them and their
families, you know, getconnected with federal benefits,
state benefits. But a lot of,you know, local nonprofit, faith
based, that kind of thing. Soanyways, very fortunate there,
but in August of 2020, right inthe middle or June of 2020,
right in the middle of theworld, you know, going crazy.
(01:58):
Moved here with my Californiawife, so she's still getting
used to Montana, but took 18months off. Needed a break and
but I got involved withorganizations like dog tech
buddies, so they do psychservice dogs for veterans,
horses, bears, healing, greatequine therapy in the Billings
(02:21):
area. But then was fortunateenough to get hooked up with
Blake Furman, who's the founder,an executive director for
veterans navigation network, andI've been working for VNN for
the last four years. So that'skind of me in a nutshell.
Sarah Byrnes (02:40):
That's great.
Thank you. Yeah, I was gonna sayVeteran Service is a little it's
near and dear to my heart of anolder brother who was 82nd
airborne, and then he wentdirectly into the National Guard
when he got out after he wasstop lost in Afghanistan, so he
was in Iraq for the firstelections. And, yeah, he's got a
lot of stories, but it's taken along time for him to open up
(03:05):
about them.
Michael McManus (03:07):
Yep, yeah, that that's fairly, you know,
typical. And you know, as faras, like, not, you know,
necessarily, talking to or, youknow, telling his story, if you
will. I mean, I spent 19 monthsin Korea, which was a long time,
pretty real, but nothing likeYugoslavia, which was back in 99
(03:28):
and just doing some site surveysand looking at where we could
put people in planes and thingslike that. Some were in some
really nice locations, and somewere in not nice locations at
all. Then, of course, when thewar started, and, I mean, just
yeah, some pretty horrendousstuff. And then Kuwait and Iraq,
you know when oh two, and thenoh three. So yeah, I get, you
(03:51):
know where it's coming from, andthat's who we work with on a
daily basis as veterans. And,you know, certainly seven
service members. And being inMontana, it's primarily some Air
Guard, but a lot of Army Guard,yeah, but the family members as
well. So yeah, we, we, we keeppretty busy.
Sarah Byrnes (04:09):
I'm sure you do.
Yeah, absolutely, when you meetnew people, I think it's
probably different, a little bitdifferent when you're like a
military service person, and Iknow that there's been a sordid
history with coming back fromdifferent wars and conflicts,
with how people in the UnitedStates like React, or the public
react, basically. So what, whatkind of reactions do you get
(04:31):
when you tell them about yourhistory or your and your
experiences?
Michael McManus (04:37):
Yeah, me and you're right. It is very
interesting. You know, youlisten to our I mean, my dad is
Vietnam area. Didn't serve inVietnam. He served in the Army
and whatnot, and came back andhe was landing in, well, first
San Francisco, you know, ofcourse, they told him, don't
wear your uniform and stuff likethat. And he said, Yeah, wrong.
He wore his uniform. He says hehe. Didn't really experience any
(05:01):
issues there, because they kept,you know, everyone kind of, you
know, the GIs that were comingback, separate from everyone
else, as much as I could. Andwhen he came into Montana, he
said there were no issues. So Ithink it's, you know, that's
great, just certain locations inthe US, probably the same ones
that, or maybe those a littleless patriotic even today, but
(05:24):
that's Yeah, neither here northere, so, but I think really,
you know, we've come a long wayafter the Gulf War, you know,
had the big parade, you know,and everything was done back in
91 and I think that's whenthings started to change in some
ways for the better, some waysnot quite so much. Because you
figure, you know, Gone were thedays of the huge standing
(05:49):
armies, you know, just ingeneral. I mean, we reduced a
lot of our troop strength.
Certainly no more, you know,drafts and things like that. So
I think the American, you know,public appreciates and respects
the military, you know, by andlarge, but I think they don't
necessarily understand what thatmeans. Because now, basically,
(06:12):
you know, for the last 25 years,it's definitely been that all
volunteer force of 4 million ishpeople that have just been
deployed again and again andagain. And I don't, I think
we're just really coming tounderstand what that actually
means. And even though peopleare, you know, appreciative of
the service, you know, you getbusy with your own life and and
(06:37):
the dog to the vet and the kidsto school and the car to oil
change and things like that. Andyou really don't necessarily
take time to consider it, unlessyou have any skin in the game,
you know, like yourself, whereyou've got a family member who
had served in the military. AndI always view, you know,
Memorial Day is kind of thatgage on just that public
(06:59):
sentiment. And, I mean, fordecades now, it's really been
about the three day weekend andthe barbecues, and not about the
true meaning of, you know,Memorial Day. I mean, I really
think it should be on a, youknow, a Wednesday during a
school year. And, you know, thethe schools are let out and they
attend, you know, the differentmemorials and different things
(07:23):
like that, I think, to really,you know, bring home the point
that, hey, this is the realmeaning behind Memorial Day and
things like that, you know. Andsome people will even say, you
know, Happy Memorial Day. Andit's, I mean, I try to remember
the sentiment behind it. Andnothing happy about Memorial
Day. Anyone who's in theservice, many people who are you
(07:44):
know in the service lost someoneor many someones. So yeah, not
exactly a happy day. It's nicethat most of America can, you
know, celebrate with, you know,baseball games and barbecues,
and that's great, because that'swhat, you know the military is
there to guarantee, is that, youknow, life goes on Back on the
(08:05):
home front kind of a thing. Butit would just, you know, it
would be interesting. Or maybe,you know, if the American public
knew what actually was, youknow, goes into serving in the
military, whether it says themember or as a child, and
certainly as a spouse,supporting that military member.
Sarah Byrnes (08:29):
Yeah, my brother has a memorial bracelet he wears
that has the names of the Fallendress. Yeah, from his group when
he was over in Afghanistan.
Yeah, so. And I know he poststheir military photos every
year, and I try to share it tokind of like you were saying,
like, show people what it reallyis. He's, yeah, that's, well,
you know, his day for that,yeah,
Michael McManus (08:52):
oh yeah for, I mean, absolutely. I mean Armed
Forces Day, hey, you know, goout and thank a member for for
serving our veterans day. Sure,you betcha, but yeah, Memorial
Day just a little differentstory. Although I do have to
admit, this year we had a greatgroup here locally in Billings.
Wow. Actually was the theBillings Rotary, but Ken
(09:13):
Callahan and his hoodies forheroes, and they say we're going
to have a Memorial Day parade.
And was like a parade a memorialday. But you know, the more I
came to kind of, I mean, thecommunity, it was turned out
amazingly, and they dedicatedthis wonderful monument and
things like that to our Iraq andAfghan killed in action. But it
(09:37):
was kind of almost thatcelebration of life type of a
thing that even though, yes, Imean, we miss them, and
certainly, you know, theirfamilies certainly do, but
really, you know, we read theirnames, we remember them, and by
doing so. They're not reallythey're not really gone, if you
(10:01):
will. You know you die once,when you physically pass you die
a second time when maybe youknow the memory starts to fade,
but when people you know nolonger can recall your name, you
know you're truly dead, andthat's not the case at all with
you know, certainly, you know,in Billings reading the names of
(10:23):
the 3839 that you know werekilled in Iraq, Afghanistan. And
you know, as long as we remembertheir names, you know they they
live on. So it was, it wasactually a very poignant and
very meaningful Memorial Dayparade. And who would have
thunk.
Sarah Byrnes (10:43):
yeah, that's cool.
Yeah, that's great.
Michael McManus (10:45):
Yeah, it was very good, you know. And of
course, you know, afterwards,yes, the, you know, the free
baseball game and everythingelse you've got all that. But
yeah, I think it definitelymeant a lot to everyone that
attended, especially thosefamilies. Yeah, it was pretty
cool.
Sarah Byrnes (10:58):
So you said that you you were in the military for
a long time, and then and youcame back and kind of found your
place. Were there any recoveryservices that you used when you
first got out of the militarythat really impacted you?
Michael McManus (11:12):
You Well, I retired in 1980 1987 I came in
in 1997 retired in May of 2007but even that, you know, you
think about like, oh my gosh,that's, it's been a while. You
know, it's interesting becauseit's military culture. You just
don't, you don't seek help forany number of reasons. And it
(11:38):
was weird because even thoughfrom 2010 through 2020 I was a
County Veteran Service Officer,and I'm referring veterans to
the Vet Center, to VA healthcareor other, you know, behavioral
health related providers, youknow, echoing therapy, all of
(12:00):
this kind of stuff. Hey, yougot, you know, you need to do
this. And then we'll, we'll kindof the other part of that is,
hey, we're going to get youcompensation for that PTSD or
that TBI, as well as all thephysical stuff. And yet, I'm not
doing it myself. And, I mean,when I had come, I mean, I had,
you know, the Dear John letterduring, you know, was it may
(12:23):
have all three, you know, kindof a thing. So, alright, that
sucks, came back, got divorced,that kind of thing. PCs,
changed, you know, movedpermanent bases. Went from hill
or Air Force Base in California,in Utah to port Wayne to Navy
base in Ventura, California,doing so with the Seabees, Navy
(12:47):
Seabees, and talking with fellowvets and helping them out, and
not helping myself, Basically,and my future wife. Now, wife
was like, You need to get yourtogether. Or, you know, there
(13:08):
will be another ex, you know,Mrs. McManus kind of a thing.
And so I, you know, eventually,and I knew exactly who to reach
out to. And I mean, because Isent other veterans to but, you
know, so, yeah, I eventuallyreached out to the Vet Center in
(13:28):
Ventura, California. And, youknow, Vet Centers are part of
the VA kind of, sort of, theyfall within VA healthcare, but
they're their own entity. Youdon't even have to be enrolled
in VA healthcare to use them,because really they would, I
mean, you could be on activeduty and use a Vet Center. Of
course, that's because far toomany veterans die by suicide.
(13:53):
But anyway, yeah, started goingto the Vet Center. Knew everyone
at the Vet Center, because we'dseen them work together and that
kind of thing. So that was, youknow, they're like, You sure?
You know, we could do a youcould see it. We could refer you
out to a community provider,someone you didn't know. I said,
heck, you know, what the heck?
So yeah, started going there andseeing my counselor. She was
(14:18):
amazing. Would call me on mywhen I needed to be but work
through stuff didn't allow me tominimize things because of which
I think is pretty typical forvets, where they minimize their
experience, you know, becausesomeone else had it worse than
them, which may very well be thecase, but you still went with,
you know, what you went through,and it most definitely had an
(14:40):
impact on you. But yeah, I hadto learn where, you know, not to
minimize the impact on me. Butanyway, that's kind of where it
started. And there was, youknow, certainly talking to had a
really good psychiatrist throughthe VA. He was a. A Navy. But I
didn't hold it against him. Hewas actually a navy flight
(15:04):
surgeon and Navy Reserves. Andso he really got the, you know,
the clinical aspect of it, butalso the military aspect of it,
and was able to bring thosethrough and not very, you know,
few providers have that evenwithin the VA, but he certainly
did, and was instrumental injust explaining PTSD and the
(15:24):
physical effects on the brain,and you know, the really, the
importance of sleep restorativesleep, not just, you know,
falling asleep or taking a napand things like that, where your
brain actually does not, youknow, enter kind of slow wave
(15:45):
length and actually restoreitself, because most vets are
operating at, you know, thatadrenaline junkie fuel, you
know, level or whatever, andthere's never any rest, and you
cannot operate it at that levelfor extended periods of time.
It's helpful when you need it,but when you no longer need it,
(16:07):
yeah, it's not helpful, and youliterally will just wear
yourself out. So anyway, he, hewas phenomenal. There's all the
physical stuff, of course, itcomes from service and that. So
you just, you know, layer thaton top of whatever, maybe mental
health stuff you might have, orsubstance use, because that's,
of course, our favorite way tocope is, you know, with drinking
(16:28):
and that kind of thing. And, youknow, but I was, I was
fortunate, because I found, youknow, coming originally from
Montana, and growing up for alittle bit of my life on a
cattle ranch during Joliet inColumbus, and my grandfather
really instilling the love ofhorses and that therapeutic
(16:52):
value that horses bring and andknowing that, and you know, was
fortunate enough, There's areally good range of Hope equine
therapy there in Ohio,California. But I also
volunteered at a horse rescue upthere, California, coastal horse
rescue. They just did, I meangreat things. And I just when I
came here, you know, I wasseeking out those horse people,
(17:16):
if you will. And that's wherethat horse of spirits healing
and a great program here, closeto Billings, it was just, you
know, very fortunate. And Imoved from the Vet Center there
in Ventura to the Billings vetcenter here, very fortunate to
have just an excellentcounselor, therapist, whatever
(17:37):
the case might be, who, after 25years of service, he left us
all, but, you know, so I've gota new counselor, but after 25
years, he had definitely earnedhis burgers and wish him all
the, all the, all the best. Butit was still like, Damn, you
know, yeah, he was, but that's,you know, hey, that's, that's,
(18:01):
that's life, that's the way itgoes. So, but, yeah, so the Vet
Center is very helpful, as wellas those kind of ancillary, or,
you know, not those primarymeans for mental health, you
know, like the equine therapyand things like that, art
therapy, yeah, just those kindsof things.
Sarah Byrnes (18:24):
I sympathize.
It's, it's hard when you findsomeone good that you really
connect with. It's hard when,yeah, it's hard when they're you
want the best for them, butyou're also sad
Michael McManus (18:35):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, good luck. But, yeah,
anyway,
Sarah Byrnes (18:40):
So in coming back, I know you said you were
pointing people in the rightdirection for services, but not
necessarily doing it yourself.
Was there anyone that you sawcome back and like had really
had a good experience that kindof changed the way you were
looking at it for yourself?
Michael McManus (18:59):
Well, there were many people who, you know,
were going like to the, youknow, the Ventura Vet Center,
and would just rave about theircounselor and things like that.
So I knew what, you know, Iprobably should be doing this,
like, oh, I don't have time. Or,you know, I can handle it, you
(19:22):
know, type of a thing. And it'sinteresting, because I don't
know how many, you know, wehelped just a lot of Vietnam era
vets. And that was another groupthat really helped me. Was a
Vietnam vets of Ventura County,just some really, really good
(19:42):
guys, you know, talking to them,and, you know, listening to what
they had gone through for, well,some of them for decades. Or,
you know, you have the spouse inyour office, and you're talking
about different things aboutwhat you know you're going to
work on, as far as maybe adisability comp claim. And, you
know, the vet will say, Yeah,you know, I think I've handled
(20:04):
things pretty good, you know.
And the wife looks at him like,What are you, you know,
sometimes, you know, a few, aslap on the shoulder and a few,
you know, whatever you know, yousort of put us through hell. I
mean, the kids were scared ofyou. We didn't know if you'd be,
you know, just all that kind ofstuff. And that's like, oh my
gosh, you know, because we canrationalize just about anything
(20:25):
over time. So, you know, theykind of that particular group.
And then just my counselor andwhatnot, and a lot of other
folks, you know, was like, yeah,it's, it's, it's time. And then,
of course, you know, my wife,you know, saying you need to,
you need to work on some things.
There was a lot of, a lot ofrage, you know, especially when
(20:49):
triggered, and I didn't evennecessarily know, I mean, I
could, I wouldn't evennecessarily feel the build up.
It was just Yeah, boom, and, andthen afterwards, not during, but
then afterwards, it's like, wow,that was really stupid. Or, you
know, that could have, I mean,we could have got her, or any
(21:10):
number of things like that. Andit's like, okay, you know, it's,
it's, yeah, I need to work onthis so. And still, oh yeah. And
Sarah Byrnes (21:20):
I was gonna say, a lot of times those situations
come out of your control. Imean, just from watching my
brother, I I feel like I couldsay that, yeah, I've, like, felt
terrible when something'shappened. It was out of
everyone's control, and ittriggered him. So,
Michael McManus (21:36):
oh yeah, for sure. Well, and that's, you
know, I also knew, you know,because I was involved in
Veterans Treatment Court there,which was kind of, it's
basically, you know, vets withservice related traumatic brain
injury, PTSD, things like that.
Who then have, you know, DUI, ormaybe a DV, or an assault, or,
(21:56):
you know, something like that,brandishing a firearm. Like to
brandish it. Usually it's notused in the commission of
anything, because who knowsbetter than a vet, what actually
happens if you fire it? But didthat for nine years, and a lot
of times it was not thoseveterans. It wasn't their second
(22:19):
or third chance. They've hadplenty of chances, but it was
most definitely going to beprobably their last chance
before they got into an accidentand hurt themselves or killed
themselves, or, God forbid,someone else, or DV situation,
that where there was just, youknow, too much violence
(22:44):
involved, which is, I mean, justabout any, any DV situation,
there's too much violenceinvolved, regardless of the
level. But, and he was able todo some amazing things, because
they had to get treatment. Thatwas a whole idea of, you know,
kind of the carrot and the stickyou get treatment. You follow
your the treatment plan, whatthe team comes up with. And I
was on the team along with, youknow, about five, six other
(23:07):
people. You get the treatmentyou need, and
whatever other things that goalong with that. And you can
eventually have that, you knowthat charge expunged, or
whatever the case might be, butreally the main thing is, you've
learned how to cope, certainlymore positively. You've had to
(23:31):
take responsibility, too foryour own actions that, yeah,
whatever you know occurred inthe service and what you're
dealing with now, that can be amitigating factor, but it is
certainly not something thatwould it doesn't change what
happened. You still have to takeresponsibility for it. And
veterans navigation network,we've got a good guy that goes
(23:54):
into our Veterans TreatmentCourt here. They call it camo,
as well as our detentionfacility, largest one in Montana
and outside the prison, andreally works with our veterans
that are in, you know, kind of asimilar situation, trying to
help them out. So I saw, youknow, some of the, you know, you
(24:15):
go to one of those graduations,and there's not a dry eye in the
room, because you know what thatveteran had well, one get an
idea on what they went throughto begin with, and certainly
what they had to accomplish tocome out the other end of that
treatment program. And it'struly remarkable. And it's kind
(24:35):
of like, you know, they can doit. I can do it. We can do it.
No one. You may think you're outthere by yourself, you know, on
an island, but that's not at allthe case. And I mean, the
service is not one where younecessarily ask for help that
it's, you know, it is okay toask for that help, because
you're, you are not the only onethat's going through whatever
(24:57):
the case is. And. That it's okayto ask for help. I It takes a
lot more courage to, you know,seek that help than to try to go
through it on your own. Andthat's what we kind of, you
know, try to convey to veterans,is takes a lot of strength to
ask for help. And because,again, there's that
(25:17):
accountability piece. And, yeah,we can talk about whatever
happened, what you're dealingwith, and try to get you, you
know, some whatever that helpmight look like, but you know,
whatever the resulting behaviorsare, yeah, you're gonna have to
take some accountability forthose as well. So there might be
a little bit of that as well. Soyeah, it's complicated. But,
(25:43):
yeah, as long as you're nottrying to do it alone, you're
gonna work through it. And, youknow, it's a shame, I've got, I
don't know, I got, all kinds ofbut the different bracelets and
on this one here, unfortunately,their first surviving spouses of
vets who have died by suicidethe last year, year and a half
that, you know, working with thesurviving spouses, six, seven of
(26:07):
them. And these are youngwidows. I mean, they're like, 30
years old, 33 years old, andthey've got kids that are two
years old, and maybe, you know,six, nine years old, stuff like
that. And I the with that vet,you know, almost invariably,
maybe there's, I mean, there'speople certainly knew that
(26:28):
something was, you know, the vethad issues, if you will, but
they didn't even know how how toaddress those, or how to ask.
And usually, being direct is thebest way to ask. I mean, you're
not talking to some sunflower,you're talking to a veteran. So
you can, you can ask him youthink about killing yourself or
whatever, and and because youfigure for every, every single
one of these bracelets, soyou're looking at about 135
(26:50):
people that are impacted by thatone suicide. And then when you
look at a state like Montana oreven Wyoming, for that matter,
you being in Laramie. ButAlaska, we rotate 123, because,
frankly, we like to shootourselves, and that's got to
(27:11):
stop. And it's there's a lotthat goes in. There are a few
things we won't be able toaddress elevation and, you know,
the number of dark days andseasonal all that stuff. But
there's a lot that we can do.
Certainly around stigma is bigpart. Ask for help. There are
resources out there. There arepeople that are willing to help.
Obviously, you're morechallenged. I mean, Wyoming. I
(27:32):
mean, if you look at the RockyMountain states, which is where,
you know, that's the number oneregion, these are all huge
states you know that areresource poor. In a lot of
areas, you've got some hubs likeBillings. Montana's a hub for
just about everything, fromCostco to sports, concerts,
medical, you name it. But boy,you get 100 miles outside of
(27:55):
Billings. And wow, there's not awhole lot out there. And
certainly, same thing inWyoming, Alaska. I mean, even
more so so, you know, but that'swhere you have to rely on that
network even more. And soanyway, before I go off on too
much of a tangent, though, Imean, it's really, you know, if,
if you want to isolate, easy todo in these states, but you're
(28:18):
not alone. So there are peopleout there that can help.
Sometimes we just have to becreative in what that help looks
like, just because the distanceis involved in everything else.
Sarah Byrnes (28:30):
Yeah, I learned last year, maybe two years ago,
about the 988, the new suicideprevention hotline, and how they
have that separate, a wholeseparate extension for just
veterans. And that's, I mean,that's telling, if anything, on
how many people, and that, thatpeople, the veterans, are not
alone and needing help, and,yeah, and that they need, and
(28:52):
maybe they might want a specifictype of help, or, like you said,
someone they can connect with.
And I think that's that's going,that's part of the way to
helping. Yeah, helping anyway,yeah, because you can text, you
can call, you can go online. Ohyeah. So I thought all that was
great, especially for rural andfrontier areas, like, oh yeah.
Montana, yeah.
Michael McManus (29:10):
Well, and that, you know, that you bring up
really good point. You weretalking, you know, rural and
urban stuff. Like, there's somany places in Montana that, I
mean, we'd have to have a majorpopulation explosion to get to
urban I mean, we're talkingfrontier kind of things with the
number or, you know, the lack ofpeople per square mile, and
things like that. And, you know,there's technology is something
(29:33):
that we have to leverage andtelemed, you know, may not work
for everybody, but in somecases, it may be all you have,
and it's certainly a lot betterthan others, but not if you
don't have connectivity. So hereare some things that, you know,
VNN is looking as far as like,basically vehicles and
satellite, you know, andbasically meeting these vets
where they're at. So, okay,maybe they don't have
(29:55):
connectivity, but we can bringit to them, you know, kind of a
thing, I think. It's been,always one of the biggest
issues, whether it's inCalifornia, where we had a
fairly population, you know,dense and yet you still had
people who never heard of you,you know, kind of a thing to a
place like Montana, you know,where, okay, maybe I understand
(30:16):
why you haven't heard of theseresources, but we still need to
get that word out there, andwhether it's, you know, Montana
two on one, where you can just,you know, Montana two on
one.org, go online and searchfor any number of things, from
housing to maybe elderlyservices or legal or whatever,
which ideally, because being in,and it's definitely something I
(30:41):
stress is, you know, let's tryto get ahead of these things, or
actually in front of them, youknow, before someone gets the
point where crisis is wherethey're at, and maybe suicide is
an option. And, you know,Montana two and one. And really,
though, I mean, that's a greatresource, but just being
connected, and that's somethingthat we try to do through our
networks is just thatconnection, whether it's kind of
(31:03):
a formal, you know, hey, we'regonna It's a peer mentorship
connection, or, Hey, it's just afun event. We're throwing axes
and eating pizza or whatever thecase might be, or having a
holiday party, or hey, you know,it's an outreach event. And yes,
we're helping, we're talking toyou and get you connected. But
whatever it might be. It's just,you know, making people aware.
(31:26):
And we knew that we werestarting to see some successes
when, you know, we startedgetting veterans were referring
other veterans. And I thinkthat's the biggest thing,
because one, it kind of shows,Alright, hey, there's a trust
level there, and you know whatyou're doing, but also that
they're talking to each other,which is, is is huge, because
(31:49):
that's really the only way we'regoing to address a lot of these
things are, you know, veteranstalking to other veterans about
whatever it might be, as opposedto the standard we'll drink
about our problems, but we won'tnecessarily, you know, do
anything very constructive toaddress those particular issues.
(32:13):
So yeah, it's kind of hearteningwhen we've got vets talking and
referring amongst ourselves andthings like that.
Sarah Byrnes (32:20):
You were talking a lot about spouses helping get
help for veterans, and then alsojust now, veterans helping
veterans. I get what would yousay to either a veteran who
might be considering gettinghelp or those support people who
have veterans in their livesthat maybe they have that
Inkling like you said, somepeople are like, Oh, I think he
(32:42):
had issues, but we didn't reallyknow how to how to approach it.
Yeah, I guess. What advice wouldyou give for them?
Michael McManus (32:49):
Yeah, well, certainly, you know, for the
veteran, kind of, like, whatwe've been talking about is
you're not alone. Reach out. Imean, when you're in the
service, you weren't alone.
You're part of a unit, whateversize that was, you know, 500 or
four whatever it might havebeen. You weren't alone. You're
not alone now. So reach out tothat buddy and not necessarily
get engaged, but just touch baseand let them know what's going
(33:13):
on. So that, I think, is thebiggest thing is you're not
alone. And you might besurprised you start talking to
your buddy and oh, wow, you'regoing through the same stuff or
something similar. For familymembers, you know, a lot of
times they get frustratedbecause their vet's not talking
to them. And I understand that.
(33:35):
I mean, if you're deployingwhatever it is, you're going
through the dark times, and thelight, of course, is whatever
you know is going to be backhome, and you're not going to
mix those two, and you're notgoing to mix those two when you
get back either maybe there'ssome moral injury or whatever.
So you're thinking, Well, I'mnot going to talk to my family
member because I'm ashamed.
They're going to judge me, youknow, all kinds of different
(34:01):
things going on, and that canmake it frustrating, you know,
for the vet, but certainly forthe family member as well, for
that mom who, I mean, their sonor daughter might be 35 years
old, still their child, and theyget frustrated and, you know,
won't talk, or whatever, andit's so, you know, kind of
(34:22):
helping them understand that,okay, the veteran may not talk,
but there are still some thingsthat you can do, or that we can
do, you know, with that veteran,and maybe they get to a
particular point where there isbetter communication. And again,
that, you know, involves, youknow, working with that vet or
bringing along that familymember into one of our social
(34:45):
events, because sometimes theycertainly configure, you know,
feel like they're in it bythemselves as well. And again,
that's just not the case. Sokind of having that what we call
our family connection, which iskind of a. You know, you know
the family, which it could be,you know, spouse or child, but
could be the caregiver as wellof that veteran, because it just
(35:07):
doesn't have to be the, youknow, the mental health
component could be thosephysical conditions where you've
got that caregiver caring fortheir, their veteran, or
whatever. And could be a verydemanding, very tough and
helping that caregiver navigatemaybe VA for potential
resources, whether it's, I mean,you know something for the
(35:27):
veteran or housing modificationor vehicle modification, or what
training, whatever it might be,but probably respite in a
support group, most certainly,because pretty soon, that can
become your whole life. And wewant to make sure that, you
know, no, there's there's stilllight outside of that, as
important as it is, there'sstill life outside of being that
(35:48):
caregiver to that veteran. Soanyway, that's really, you know,
for the family members, isyou're again, you're not in it
alone either. And let us connectyou with some resources to kind
of help with that quality oflife, both for your veteran, but
also for that family member aswell.
Sarah Byrnes (36:09):
Well, is there anything else that you'd like to
add before we wrap up here?
Michael McManus (36:13):
You know some notes? I really think you know,
it's just, there's again. Imean, it takes a lot of courage
to to seek help. There's peopleout there that are willing to
give it. I mean, if you had abroken leg, you're certainly
going to, you know, if someonecould help carry you to your car
(36:33):
and then help get you to thehospital. All right, you allow
them to do that if you're in aparticular point of crisis, you
know, with some mental health orjust really being overwhelmed,
and you don't think that, youknow, there's any way tomorrow
is going to be any better. Youneed to talk to somebody,
(36:54):
because you'd be amazed at justthe level of help that is out
there and the people that wantto help. So my really last
parting thing is, I was king fora day, I would ask, I would have
every person in Montana take QPRor Question, Persuade, Refer.
(37:16):
It's a suicide awarenessprevention training, very simple
hour, and a half depending uponthe group. But really, you know
question ask that person. Itdoesn't have to be a veteran,
really, anyone you know, and youcan be direct, depending upon
the individual. But ultimately,it gets down to, are you going
to kill yourself and thenpersuade Hey, you know what?
(37:37):
Maybe we need to take a ride tothe ER, or let's call 988 if
you're a vet, 988 press one. Butthen also refer. I think a lot
of people don't ask the questionbecause they're afraid of the
answer, which is understandablyso, especially if it's not
something you're very familiarwith. But who do you refer
locally that can actually help?
So all I'd ask is, you know,anyone out there, if you got
(38:04):
questions about QPR to ask,certainly VNN, and we can help
you with that, because it's agreat boots on the ground,
grassroots level, you know, kindof thing that can save lives.
Absolutely,
Sarah Byrnes (38:22):
yeah, well, thank you so much for taking your time
and doing this with me. Iappreciate it so much.
Michael McManus (38:28):
Yeah, absolutely, I enjoyed it. If you
need anything else, just let meknow, sir, thank you all right,
take care. Bye, bye, bye.
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