July 2, 2025 • 34 mins
The Journey of Recovery interview series highlights the stories of Montanans with lived experiences of trauma, substance use and mental health struggles and who are on the path of recovery. These interviews share how people can move forward and empower others to do the same.
In this episode, Mountain Pacific’s Sarah Byrnes discusses with Bryan German his experience with the correctional system and what he is doing to help support others on their journey of recovery by valuing the person and not defining them by past actions.
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Episode Transcript
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Sarah Byrnes (00:00):
Announcer, one chapter does not define a
(00:04):
person's whole story. Welcome toour journey of recovery series
where we talk with Montanans whohave lived experience of trauma,
substance use and struggles withmental health, about where they
are now the Substance Abuse andMental Health Services
Administration, or SAMHSAdefines recovery as a process of
change through which individualsimprove their health and
(00:26):
wellness, live a self directedlife and strive to reach their
full potential. Join us to learnabout community members in
recovery as they share theirstory and the steps they are
taking to help others on theirjourney. So, thank you so much
for doing this for us. We reallyappreciate doing these
(00:46):
interviews, and I'm excited tobe here. So, do you mind
starting just by introducingyourself?
Bryan German (00:54):
Yeah. I mean, that always feels like an awkward
proposition to me. My name isBryan German, but how do I like
quickly describe who I am. Ilive in Missoula. I work at Best
Buy in the Geek Squad, repairingcomputers. I live at home with
my wife, which is a big thing,because for so long I didn't,
into that a little bit later, Iguess. But got a new motorcycle
you know, getlast year. I love riding that
(01:22):
around.
Sarah Byrnes (01:25):
That's cool, yeah, yeah,
Bryan German (01:27):
yeah, super. I can't believe I got to be what,
48 without ever riding amotorcycle. And I'm following
last year, and when I went outon first ride, I was like, I
can't believe I didn't do thismy whole life.
Sarah Byrnes (01:40):
Well, I've still never done that. So one, I guess
one for the bucket list, right?
Yeah. So what kind of topics doyou enjoy discussing, if when
you meet new people,
Bryan German (01:54):
I don't usually go into meeting new people with,
like, a list of things talkabout. That's something I've
never been I guess good at likescripts in that way, I went
through a period of life where Ilived by scripts, and now I've,
like, tried to, like, dismantlethat part of my life. So I go in
and just try to interact andsee, see what comes up, and ask
them questions. And I'm alwayssuper interested to meet new
(02:15):
people and and get past thesmall talk. I don't engage in
small talk, and I just try to,as quickly as I can, just get
into the real gritty, you know,of who are you, or what do we
have in common? And how can wehave, like, an authentic, deeper
interaction than than some smalltalk.
Sarah Byrnes (02:32):
Yeah. So, no, weather. What's up with the
weather for you kind of talk?
Bryan German (02:37):
Not, not usually, yeah, every starts with that,
yeah, yeah. What's up with theweather? Or, hey, things are
crazy right now. Or, hey, youknow what? I mean, just wherever
based off of where I am, butit's super like, context
dependent, like where I am. Youknow, it's the conversations I
get into with clients at workwho are coming in with their
computer, and we just start offwith talking about what's going
(02:59):
on with the computer, and thenquickly get into talking about
their last trip to Germany orIreland, or, you know, all the
dogs that they raise orwhatever, because I just try to
get past just that instant wasin front of me.
Sarah Byrnes (03:12):
Yeah, and I'm sure, with being the Geek Squad,
if you see people who are havingtrouble with their computer, you
hear a lot of stories about, Idon't want to lose these
documents, or I don't want tolose these pictures or so I
Yeah, I'm sure it goes, it cango deep quick or get right to
what they were really hoping toretrieve, if they're having
issues. I know I've done thatbefore.
Bryan German (03:32):
Yeah, I would think everybody has right. I
mean, technology fails us in somany ways. It's they're powerful
tools, but they could be, youknow, misused, or fail at the
wrong time and but hope. Mostheartbreaking story I had was I
had a client one time who shehad pictures of her dead husband
on her computer, but she keptusing the computer after getting
warnings that the drive wasfailing, and so when it finally
(03:54):
wouldn't turn on anymore, shecame into us wanting us to fix
it. And I'm like, there'sthere's no fixing this. I am so
sorry. And I sat with her andtried to offer my condolences
that I could well, she cried alittle bit, you know, but,
Sarah Byrnes (04:09):
yeah, I have, I have a phone that stopped
working. Had all the pictures ofmy, my only child as a baby,
good. Fortunately for me, I wasable to back. I had it backed
up, and I didn't even know. Sothank goodness. My sister was a
tech for the cell phone companywe used, and she had set that up
(04:30):
for me. But, yeah, I can'timagine just losing it all was
like, but it sounds like youlike the more authentic
connection than just, yeah, justlike, what's going on on the
surface?
Bryan German (04:39):
Yeah, yeah, I do.
And part of that's just, youknow, my narrative versions, but
part of it too is just after thethings that I've gone through in
my life, after living in acertain period of your life,
just completely superficial, youknow, and then pretending to be
somebody for everybody else. Ihave noticed. Desire to be that
way anymore? Yeah, I went alittle too far the other way,
(05:03):
I'm sure, based on peopleuncomfortable a little bit
sometimes, but not generally.
Most people are willing to betheir authentic selves if they
trust that you're being yourauthentic self. You know, they
don't want to be tricked intogiving away their secrets if
you're not putting anything onthe line. But,
Sarah Byrnes (05:18):
yeah, your honesty gives them permission, kind of
thing. Like, they can be honesttoo. I'm like, as a fellow
neurodivergent, I 100%understand that, like, just cut
through it all. What would yousay your long term goals are? Or
short long term goals? Itdoesn't have to be like, you
(05:38):
don't need to have a two yearplan. Like,
Bryan German (05:40):
well, yeah, thanks for qualifying that little bit.
Right now we're looking atbuying house. We made an offer
on house a few weeks ago, and itdidn't work out because, you
know, we felt like they wereasking way more than than a
house is worth, and we werewilling to put some work into
(06:01):
it, so we were willing to getinto it a certain price point.
But it was cool. That was cool.
That was the first time thatwe're putting off our own house.
And hopefully sometime in thenext, you know, three to nine
months, we'll, we'll buy one andmove in and have our own place.
Sarah Byrnes (06:09):
I hope you get a chance to get that house.
That's, that's awesome. That's agreat thing to do. Yeah, what
are other or do you have anyother certain topics you enjoy
discussing? Like, is there I getyou said you work for the Geek
Squad, like, do you like tech?
Do you like to, like, talk abouttech or something else.
Bryan German (06:25):
I mean I do. Yeah, yeah. We talk about that a lot.
I work with a lot of mycoworkers, a lot of my coworkers
little bit younger, but, I mean,we all talk about Minecraft.
Everybody loves Minecraft. So Ican get a little lost in that
game sometimes, but talk aboutthat. Or, you know, sometimes
other new games that are comingout, they all play D and D, and
I haven't played that for a longtime, so I don't have a whole
lot to talk about, as far asthat goes, but that or new apps,
(06:47):
or how the computers work. Imean, it's, yeah, a lot about a
lot about tech. But I've alsoworked in construction recently,
too, so we'll talk about that.
And I always cook and bringleftovers. And so I talked to
them about food that I eat, andI always try to get people to
try it. Hey, we just made this.
You want to try this? Give thema bite. You know,
Sarah Byrnes (07:05):
I'm like, you'd be my favorite coworker. I love
that. I worked in a lot ofplaces where there was a kitchen
right by and i You always makefriends with the chef. You
always make friends with a chef.
Smart guy, yeah, well, that'sawesome. I was like, there's a
lot of going on with AI and techand, I mean, all of that stuff
right now too. So that's prettycool. Do you have any like,
recent accomplishments you wantto share anything like that,
(07:28):
other than trying to buy ahouse? I mean, that's awesome.
Just getting through thatprocess.
Bryan German (07:32):
That's a big thing. It's a little stressful.
We're trying to pay off debt atthe same time, so we started
looking earlier than we canactually afford to move in, but
it's good to get out there, seewhat's on the market, and start
moving in that direction. I havebeen involved with a group we
meet in Helena about once amonth at the Department of
(07:56):
Corrections and talk aboutissues related to to
correctional policy and abouthow they deal with with
offenders. We are getting readyto go into Deer Lodge this
weekend to teach two seminarsabout wellness, recovery action
plans. So we're gonna bring thatto the guys. And really cool,
(08:18):
yeah, yeah, and hopefully givesome some guys, some just common
sense tools that will allow themto figure out who they want to
be, who they are, as their bestselves, and then just work
towards that and not put likeshe big expectations about
understanding this or that, butjust common sense approach.
Sarah Byrnes (08:36):
Yeah, I always say to my daughter, you know, small
steps, just keep moving forward.
So just as long as we can keepdoing it, that's how we get to
school in the morning. Likethat's everything. Is that just
that program, just for people inthe correctional system, or is
it going to be more widely done?
Bryan German (08:54):
So what what we're doing, the initiative we're
working on, is just for the guyswho are inside. Hopefully we'd
like to set up some peermentoring so as they go to
transition to the outside, if Ihave some more support. But rap
itself is a larger program thatdeals with people in in
recovery, throughout throughoutthe country, and a couple of
different places in a couple ofdifferent countries. I'm not
(09:16):
sure where it isinternationally, but I know it's
it's been around. It's anational organization, the
advocates for human potential.
They publish the documents anddo the trainings and certify
people. And you know what repstands for? I wasn't sure. Yeah,
wellness, Recovery Action Plan.
Sarah Byrnes (09:33):
Oh, awesome. Yeah, that's just like you were saying
to go there and just kind ofgive them those tools. Did you
have any tools that you learnedabout or the ones that were most
useful for you that you're goingto share?
Bryan German (09:46):
The crazy thing is that I didn't know anything
about rap back in the day, but alot of what it does translates
into and I think aligns with alot of people's experience,
because it is such a commonsense based approach. But it
goes beyond that to do. A coupleother tenants are to treat
people with unconditional highregard, you know. And so when
(10:10):
you treat people as if you valuethem, and when you show that you
actually do value them, thenthey tend to want to live up to
that, you know. They tend towant to be worthy of that, and
they treat you in the same way.
And so that kind of approach isdifferent than you can see in a
lot of different places in theworld. And so I think it's
valuable in and of itself forme, my my wellness and my my
(10:32):
journey was really just madepossible and bolstered at so
many points just by therelationships that I made with
the relationships that I madewith the people that I was
around, and just being able to,like literally, talk about
whatever it was that was goingon in our life and what we were
struggling with, and how thingsfrom our past drove us and to
(10:53):
just be able to talk in a safespace with people that You know
cared about you, that didn'tjudge you, that that that
allowed me to recover myself ina way that wouldn't have been
possible otherwise. And so tohave that, and to to treat
people like they're the experton themselves, right? Like you
don't, you don't need to havesomebody explain to you the
(11:16):
finer details of these, youknow, philosophical or
psychological theories, in orderto get a better understanding of
yourself, if you just have acommon sense approach, have
conversations with people thatcare about you, that have a
little bit of insight. You valuetheir insight. You can talk
freely about what you're goingthrough. I don't know that you
really need a whole heck of alot more.
Sarah Byrnes (11:39):
Yeah, just the experience of living and like
going through life just knowingyourself too. Yeah, I get that
that sounds like a powerful toolfor people to accept themselves,
is to have someone else alsomirror that too, that you're
you're being accepted into safespace, like you said, where
there's a huge thing, oh yeah, Iwas gonna say, where there's any
influential people who kind ofbrought that to you. Did you
(12:01):
have some mentors?
Bryan German (12:04):
I did, yeah, we were, we were mentoring each
other because we were justtrying to figure it all out. So
so my my story is that Icommitted a violent crime in
1998 and I went to prison foralmost 20 years, and so my
wellness and my recovery was inan institutional setting, and so
(12:26):
being around other people whohad similar experiences to mine,
we were all just trying tofigure out how to not be the
same people that we had been inthe past, you know, and and it's
crazy to say that, but becausemost of the people that I know
weren't unhinged, they wentthrough some some shit and had
(12:51):
bad responses to that, you knowwhat I mean. And so the the
judgment that you get when youwhen you talk about those kind
of things, are that things thatyou see people's people's
reactions because they don'thave a context. Most people
don't have a context forunderstanding that, or for being
able to respond with anythingother than fear to that. That
kind of discussion. We all wentthrough groups at different
(13:12):
times, different kind of grouptherapies, and talked about
those kinds of things. I had alot of different programs over
the years that they would bringto try to to try to fix people
who are broken, you know, andsome of that is, is valuable,
absolutely something that can begained from from those kinds of
programs. Is, was it valuable?
Definitely. But just honestly,being around people who have
(13:35):
that same kind of an approachthat just wanted to be better,
that was it. They just wanted tobe better people and and well,
well into it to work and talkabout whatever they were going
through in their struggle to getto move in that direction. And
you always have the end goal inmind, like, hey, I want to get
out of prison and stay out,which is, is part of it. But
(13:58):
that that drive to to just notbe the person that I was is
huge.
Sarah Byrnes (14:07):
Yeah, I'm sure, like you were saying, like,
circumstances play a huge rolein a lot of choices that people
make. Doesn't always mean thatsomebody coming out of you
doesn't have that experience,they don't know what choice they
would have made, you know, andin any situation. And, yeah,
that's and it sounds likethere's a lot of self awareness
going on too. I mean, if you'retalking to each other about it,
(14:27):
just peer to peer, workingthrough it. That's that takes a
lot of self awareness. And Iknow that's something that can
be a little more rare nowadays.
Bryan German (14:38):
It can be, yeah, but ironically, I've always
found for myself. I've alwaysfound more of that with people
who have been through somethingin life, who have been through
addiction and are working ontheir recovery, who have made a
mistake, been incarcerated, andare trying to, trying to grow as
people and so that kind of selfawareness, that kind. Of just
(15:03):
trying to be a better person,trying to make choices that
matter for the right reasons,that that kind of
intentionality, it requireshaving suffered through
something in order to, like,really keep that a slow burn for
for a lifetime. I think,
Sarah Byrnes (15:21):
yeah, you saying that intentionality, that sounds
like you being involved in rapis a huge part of your like,
recovery as well, just wantingto do that give back to help
other people.
Bryan German (15:35):
Yeah, yeah. We started. WRAP is a recent thing,
but we started, like, a year anda half ago, we decided that we
were going to go into thefacilities and just talk to
people who were there, just totry to, as inspire a sense of
hope, just share them. You know,the hope that that got a lot of
us through. And so there was agap from about 20 people that
(15:57):
got together, and we decidedthat that would be a good thing.
And so we've gone in with groupsof anywhere from from two to,
you know, little more than adozen, into what, you know, the
men's facility in Deer Lodge.
We've been up to Shelby. We endup the juvenile facility in Pine
hills and in Mile city, to thewomen's prison in Billings. And
just go to into those places andjust try to talk to people
(16:18):
about, about what, about whatworks for us and and why we were
able to be successful and stay,stay clean and sober on the
streets, stay, you know, crimefree on the streets. Whatever,
you know, whatever the issueswere, just even to to heal from,
from whatever traumas that we'vebeen through in our lives. And
so it's really pretty cool tosee some of the impact that can
(16:41):
be made that way. One of myfavorite places to go is pine
hills, you know, because there'sa lot of, a lot of young men
there that you know arestruggling to just to grow up.
You know, how do when you're,you know, 12 to 18, that's,
that's a fraught time period, nomatter what. But you take it to
that, whatever trauma they'vebeen through, whatever bad
(17:02):
decisions they are made, and howthat affected them, and how they
responded to that. And, yeah,one of one of the guys in our
group, he he likes to take themfishing. He goes down there, and
the management there lets themtake a couple of them out
fishing, and they just go outfish and talk about stuff that
(17:22):
guys talk about when they'redoing that, you know. And for,
yeah, yeah, for some, some youngman who grew up with, maybe with
or without fathers, butdefinitely, not necessarily with
a good male role model, to beable to just kind of have that
experience is, it's pretty cool.
He loves it.
Sarah Byrnes (17:39):
That sounds awesome. That sounds like a
great initiative. I mean, goingin all those places and just
sharing your story, like thisworked for me. I know a lot of
people say, like, you know, noteverything works the same for
everybody, so you've got to findyour own kind of path. But
knowing what's worked for otherpeople really helps, kind of
(17:59):
helps other people figure outwhat, what they can do for
themselves, too, yeah,
Bryan German (18:02):
yeah. It puts it under context, and just lets you
even know that as possible,right? Like you don't know it's
possible unless you see otherpeople succeed. I know that when
you're sitting in an institutionand, you know, you see so many
people coming back and so manypeople not getting an
opportunity to get out, then itcan be pretty hopeless, you
know, but to just have that kindof message hopefully will make a
(18:25):
difference for some people, andit has the some of the comments
that we get are pretty cool.
Sarah Byrnes (18:30):
That's awesome. So when people learn about your
lived experience, is thereanything that you kind of
notice, or reactions that younotice that you get,
Bryan German (18:41):
I know, yeah, there's, there's a few different
kinds. I guess you can breakthem down into categories. One
is like, no way you you don'tlook like you would have enough,
yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. I mean,I appreciate that, but you can't
always judge by, you know, whatyou see right in front, right?
And you know, the other one is,is, you can see, there's a lot
(19:01):
of times there's a look of, ohmy God, Who am I talking to?
Who? Who is this in front of me?
You know, what? What's gonnahappen? Are they gonna are they
gonna freak out on me? Are theygonna act weird or, you know, or
are they like the ones that Isaw on, you know, 90 days in,
or, I forget what all the motherprison shows are. I never
watched any of them. You know,
Sarah Byrnes (19:21):
all I could think of was scared straight when
you're talking about the kids.
And I was like, I don't know. I
Bryan German (19:24):
Oh yeah, yeah. We had so we had, I grew up in in
don't know how I feel aboutthat, but
Washington state, and we hadsome people come from they had
been to the jails out there, andthey came to our high school
when I was a teenager, and wewere supposed to all hang out in
the in the cafeteria, and listento them, I differ a little bit.
And then, you know, my friendsstep off and because it just, it
(19:46):
doesn't hit that way, you know,right? Because, to me, it just
lacks, there's no realconnection. You know what? I
mean, it's like, yeah, you needto act right, or you're gonna
Yeah. And that's, I don't know.
I don't think that's a good wayto reach people,
Sarah Byrnes (19:59):
yeah. I can see that like there wasn't that's
not a peer, that's somebodycoming in and saying, don't do
what I did. I mean, and as a asa parent, I personally know that
doesn't work for my kids. So,oh, yeah.
Bryan German (20:14):
Oh, are we down to the parent? Or you're like,
you're gonna get in trouble. Andyou're like, okay, yes,
sometimes you're worse, but notvery often.
Sarah Byrnes (20:22):
So looking back, is there anything that kind of
spurred your want to go intorecovery, or that process of
recovery?
Bryan German (20:31):
I mean, just a sense of desperation, you know?
I mean, there are some choicesyou can make and some things
that you can do that can get youto a point in your life where
you don't see a way out. And youcan run from that sense of
feeling lost or trapped or thathelplessness, but you can only
run for so long. I just got to acertain point where I couldn't
(20:57):
do that, you know, and I wasn'tcrazy out running the streets,
doing wild stuff. You know, Iwas mostly tame. And what got me
into into my situation, was notlike some some stories, right,
right? It was enough, right,yeah, but seeing how it affected
(21:21):
my family, and the fact that,you know, my family, after I got
sentenced, they were, they wereright there with me, you know.
And they that the pain that Isaw on them, seeing, you know, I
watched my son grow up in avisiting room, you know, and
have my daughter's mom not wantto have contact with me, and
(21:42):
also I didn't even get to talkto my daughter until after she
was 18, really. So the pain ofseeing how my actions affected
them was a big thing, and to seethat they still had help from me
even in those hopelesscircumstances, I think you know,
those two things together, thethe desperation that I felt, but
(22:02):
the the fact that they werestill willing to be there,
providing whatever support theycould. You know, I was as a
teenager. You know, I had, I hadtwo kids before I was 19, and I
never felt like I could actuallybe a father, because my
relationship with my father wasbroad, and so to see that just
(22:28):
them, just being there, wasmaking a difference for me, made
me kind of realize that I didn'thave to worry so much about
whether or not I could be afather. I just had to be there,
and then to see how that'splayed out over time is pretty
incredible experience. You know,I've had a good relationship
with both of my children now,and they're both married. My son
(22:50):
bought a house last year, and wehave a great relationship and
that, you know, I want to saymore than anything else, but my
relationship with my wife is upthere too, and my relationship
is with all my family. But thoseare, those are my success
stories, more than anythingelse, being able to spend time
with them and be there for themfrom those big moments and for
(23:10):
them to know that even though Icouldn't be there for most of
their life, that that I wantedto and to it to accept any kind
of love for me is is incredible,given the circumstances, that's
remarkable. They're, they'regreat kids.
Sarah Byrnes (23:26):
That's amazing.
Yeah, I was gonna say it soundedlike you had at least some some
people with a as a supportnetwork for you too, when you
went in, yeah, where you were inthat situation. And I know that
it's not always rare, but maybeyou don't know until you get
there that you have people thatare willing to support you.
Bryan German (23:45):
Yeah, yeah. I saw that in a lot of my friends'
lives, you know, where they wererunning the streets, doing
whatever they were doing,feeling like they were totally
on their own. And then they getinto that situation and and
realize that, oh, there is somefamily members who still want to
support you, and we're trying tosupport you all along where you
all along where you couldn't seeit, couldn't accept that from
Sarah Byrnes (24:05):
Yeah, and I'm sure that's powerful too, to know
that you know, even if you'reaccepting, like I messed up and
somebody's there for you at thatsame time too. So yeah, I just
think that support system soimportant. So with the work that
you do now, do you still have asupport system that you lean on?
Bryan German (24:26):
Oh, it's hard, because most of my support, or
not, most of my support system,but my, I guess, the support
system that had a context forme, you know, who had shared
similar experiences with me,those guys, there's they're
still inside, and some of them,we never get out. And so having
that leave that behind and comeout to a world that is is mostly
(24:47):
foreign. You know, even thoughI'm going on the family, it's
that's a disorienting process.
You know, I do have some somefriends, mostly ones who were on
that. Committee with me andHelena that I can reach out to
sometimes, and we can, we canhave good conversations together
and be a good support for eachother. We're trying to build out
(25:09):
a little bit more than it hasbeen, because it's been a little
sporadic. But for the most part,when you get out of prison, they
want you to leave all of thatbehind, yeah, and in large part,
you know, those, those guys wereresponsible for, for me being
able to find a better sense ofmyself and to, you know, really
(25:30):
come to my senses. You know,yeah, it couldn't have happened
without the support of myfamily. But at the same time, it
couldn't happen without thesupport of my peers. So, um, are
Sarah Byrnes (25:43):
there any support services that you used when you
were trying to re acclimate, oranything that helped you?
Bryan German (25:50):
Um, yeah, I went through the pre release here in
Missoula, and that was I thoughtI didn't need it because I had
family support. You know? Yeah,I was like, I just want to go
home. Why are you making me goto pre release. But in
hindsight, as I and as I wasgoing through the process,
really, I was glad for thosekind of safeguards and that kind
of support, because they theymake sure that you do some
things that that just kind ofmakes sense as you're going
(26:11):
through that big of atransition. They want you to
talk to a counselor at least sixtimes. You know, if you have
addiction issues, they want youto go to AA or NA. They want you
to see an addictions counselor,if that's what you need. They
want you to just addresswhatever your issues are,
whatever they they think isgoing to put you at risk. They
want you to address that headon, and then they like have
(26:34):
safeguards as you become morefinancially stable. So I mean,
that was, that was a good thingfor me to go through that kind
of a transition. Absolutely. Iwent to some AA and or, yeah,
some AA, some NA meetings whileI was going through there. But
(26:54):
for me, my journey has been moreabout recovering a sense of
wellness than actuallyrecovering from an addiction to
a substance. And so while I canhave conversations, and I hold a
lot in common with people whoare recovering from addiction to
substances, my journey is been,I guess, a little bit different
(27:17):
than some of that, because,like, I smoked a little bit of
weed when I was in high schooland just after that, but I
didn't battle with some of theother substances that some
people get drawn into. And Iwasn't out long enough. I don't
know if I would have, if I was,you know, if I hadn't known a
prison but that wasn't the maindriver of my host of issues.
(27:41):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Sarah Byrnes (27:42):
It does make sense. Yeah, for sure. I mean,
like your mental health andwellness, like you were saying,
is also really important, justquality of life, too. So trying
to make sure that getting thatpoint, that's pretty it's pretty
amazing that you're on thatjourney. And thank you for
sharing. Well, thank you. Isthere anything else that you'd
(28:03):
want to share with us, justabout being in recovery, or
what? How people you know,people you were saying, people
reacted in these different ways.
But honestly, for me, people arepeople, and I've always said
that, so I'm like, Just treatpeople like you would. Treat
yourself. Hopefully, that's goodway, good way, though, with
respect. Yeah. So is thereanything other things you'd want
(28:27):
to say to somebody who ismeeting someone in recovery for
the first time, or just ingeneral, to the community?
Bryan German (28:35):
To me, it comes back to something that we had
talked about earlier, that ifyou go into those kind of
interactions, just being honestwith yourself and being open and
honest with the other person, Imean, that's the only way to
really interact with people ingeneral, right? I think when
interacting with people, ifyou're honest, you have to
(28:56):
attribute them better intentionsthan you sometimes want to you
know, because most people aretrying their best to do their
best, and sometimes that mightnot look very good to you, but
you don't always have a contextfor what is behind whatever
somebody is going through at anypoint in time, I have had a
(29:18):
great response From a number ofpeople at work who have known
about my circumstance before. Iknew that they knew, you know,
and then and got a chance tocome to terms with that
themselves, and then later on, Ifind out that they know we have
conversations about that, and isit has changed for the better
how they interact with me. Andso that kind of understanding
(29:40):
that you can have from justhaving honest interactions with
people is, is as revolutionary,really?
Sarah Byrnes (29:47):
Yeah, that sounds awesome, like just, have just
asked the question, berespectful. But ask the
question,
Bryan German (29:52):
yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. And, you know, there
are some people that arereserved for me. There's not
really. Be any questions that Ifeel like are off limits, and so
you'll get a certain type ofresponse from me, some people
might feel like, especially ifthey feel like you're judging
them. I think that's the onlytime that people are generally
closed off. If you can askquestions and interact with
(30:13):
people in a way that that trulyis non judgmental, then it
totally changes everything abouthow you interact with people,
yeah?
Sarah Byrnes (30:23):
So, just people being open to learning about
someone else's experience. Yeah,I'm always, I'm always about,
you know, don't, don't knocksomeone for their small
victories too, because it couldbe big for them, but it might
seem small, but it's big. And I,I feel like that comes from my
neurodivergence. But, uh, yeah.
Just assess. Sometimes my brainneeds, needs to celebrate all
the small things. So I totallyget that, yeah, and
Bryan German (30:48):
you gotta remind yourself as that is okay, and
anything necessary to celebratethose things sometimes, because
you get to have it such a habitof judging yourself, you know,
according to other people'sstandards. And if I mean, does
bullshit, right? Yeah, but yeah,you can go through your life
doing that, and there's, there'sno reason for it. It just sets
(31:09):
you up, right?
Sarah Byrnes (31:09):
Yeah, yep. It's all about, for me, it's about
the humanizing. It's everyone'shuman. Everyone people just
recognizing, like you said, justcome talk to you. And some
people might not be comfortablewith that, but ask the question,
and if they say no, just respecttheir No. That's my Yeah, that's
my take on that. So
Bryan German (31:28):
yeah, I think it's so hard a lot of times to deal
with other people on their ownterms. I mean, it's not high for
me, because that's like now mydefault mode, but a lot of
people struggle with that, andit's, it's weird, because I
didn't think that that was goingto be the issue when I was
growing up. You know, yet, mostpeople would have such a
difficult time just acceptingpeople on their own terms and
(31:52):
dealing with them, or notdealing with them, but
interacting with them in a wayit reflects that, you know,
Sarah Byrnes (31:58):
yes, I know that's definitely hard for people like
just just saying, accept the No.
I know that's hard for a lot ofpeople to accept the No, so
yeah, but I'm hoping this isgoing to be an impactful thing
to share with the community andjust everyone at large, and
knowing all the good stuff likeyou're doing with the group that
(32:18):
you're in and and introducingrap, and how impactful those
things can be, just that humaninteraction and that peer to
peer, just talking it out, yeah.
And there, I don't, thereshouldn't be any shame or stigma
or like, anything associatedwith that, because we, all our
brains, are complex, man andjust trying to talk it out,
(32:39):
that's a good thing.
Bryan German (32:41):
Yeah, yeah. And most people live going through
stuff, you know, yeah, we allhave stuff, right? And there's
no reason to like try to keepthat hidden, or, yeah, to use
the word stigmatized, yep,that's just the common human
experience. If it's a commonhuman experience, why do we
gotta like, try to sweep itunder the rug or pretend to get
(33:01):
us up in the fist, or any ofthat, you know, yeah. And so
that's a big part of one of thebig wins about us being able to
take rap into the facilities andhopefully set up some peer
mentoring, is to if we can getthe the system to recognize that
that people in institutions canhelp each other and be a support
(33:25):
for each other, and to like,like formally accept that and
have space, hold space for that.
I think that's going to be a bigwin and and I I think that
that's possible. It's going totake a little bit more work, but
I think it's possible, and I'mglad to be working on that.
Sarah Byrnes (33:42):
Well, I'm rooting for you. That sounds awesome,
yeah, like you said, don't needto cut off your support network.
Like, like you were saying,like, those are impactful
relationships too. So,
Unknown (33:53):
all right. Well, thank you. Great to share. That's
okay, no worries. All right.
Well, have a great one. Yeah,you too.
Announcer, one chapter does not define a
(00:04):
person's whole story. Welcome toour journey of recovery series
where we talk with Montanans whohave lived experience of trauma,
substance use and struggles withmental health, about where they
are now the Substance Abuse andMental Health Services
Administration, or SAMHSAdefines recovery as a process of
change through which individualsimprove their health and
(00:26):
wellness, live a self directedlife and strive to reach their
full potential. Join us to learnabout community members in
recovery as they share theirstory and the steps they are
taking to help others on theirjourney. So, thank you so much
for doing this for us. We reallyappreciate doing these
(00:46):
interviews, and I'm excited tobe here. So, do you mind
starting just by introducingyourself?
Bryan German (00:54):
Yeah. I mean, that always feels like an awkward
proposition to me. My name isBryan German, but how do I like
quickly describe who I am. Ilive in Missoula. I work at Best
Buy in the Geek Squad, repairingcomputers. I live at home with
my wife, which is a big thing,because for so long I didn't,
into that a little bit later, Iguess. But got a new motorcycle
you know, getlast year. I love riding that
(01:22):
around.
Sarah Byrnes (01:25):
That's cool, yeah, yeah,
Bryan German (01:27):
yeah, super. I can't believe I got to be what,
48 without ever riding amotorcycle. And I'm following
last year, and when I went outon first ride, I was like, I
can't believe I didn't do thismy whole life.
Sarah Byrnes (01:40):
Well, I've still never done that. So one, I guess
one for the bucket list, right?
Yeah. So what kind of topics doyou enjoy discussing, if when
you meet new people,
Bryan German (01:54):
I don't usually go into meeting new people with,
like, a list of things talkabout. That's something I've
never been I guess good at likescripts in that way, I went
through a period of life where Ilived by scripts, and now I've,
like, tried to, like, dismantlethat part of my life. So I go in
and just try to interact andsee, see what comes up, and ask
them questions. And I'm alwayssuper interested to meet new
(02:15):
people and and get past thesmall talk. I don't engage in
small talk, and I just try to,as quickly as I can, just get
into the real gritty, you know,of who are you, or what do we
have in common? And how can wehave, like, an authentic, deeper
interaction than than some smalltalk.
Sarah Byrnes (02:32):
Yeah. So, no, weather. What's up with the
weather for you kind of talk?
Bryan German (02:37):
Not, not usually, yeah, every starts with that,
yeah, yeah. What's up with theweather? Or, hey, things are
crazy right now. Or, hey, youknow what? I mean, just wherever
based off of where I am, butit's super like, context
dependent, like where I am. Youknow, it's the conversations I
get into with clients at workwho are coming in with their
computer, and we just start offwith talking about what's going
(02:59):
on with the computer, and thenquickly get into talking about
their last trip to Germany orIreland, or, you know, all the
dogs that they raise orwhatever, because I just try to
get past just that instant wasin front of me.
Sarah Byrnes (03:12):
Yeah, and I'm sure, with being the Geek Squad,
if you see people who are havingtrouble with their computer, you
hear a lot of stories about, Idon't want to lose these
documents, or I don't want tolose these pictures or so I
Yeah, I'm sure it goes, it cango deep quick or get right to
what they were really hoping toretrieve, if they're having
issues. I know I've done thatbefore.
Bryan German (03:32):
Yeah, I would think everybody has right. I
mean, technology fails us in somany ways. It's they're powerful
tools, but they could be, youknow, misused, or fail at the
wrong time and but hope. Mostheartbreaking story I had was I
had a client one time who shehad pictures of her dead husband
on her computer, but she keptusing the computer after getting
warnings that the drive wasfailing, and so when it finally
(03:54):
wouldn't turn on anymore, shecame into us wanting us to fix
it. And I'm like, there'sthere's no fixing this. I am so
sorry. And I sat with her andtried to offer my condolences
that I could well, she cried alittle bit, you know, but,
Sarah Byrnes (04:09):
yeah, I have, I have a phone that stopped
working. Had all the pictures ofmy, my only child as a baby,
good. Fortunately for me, I wasable to back. I had it backed
up, and I didn't even know. Sothank goodness. My sister was a
tech for the cell phone companywe used, and she had set that up
(04:30):
for me. But, yeah, I can'timagine just losing it all was
like, but it sounds like youlike the more authentic
connection than just, yeah, justlike, what's going on on the
surface?
Bryan German (04:39):
Yeah, yeah, I do.
And part of that's just, youknow, my narrative versions, but
part of it too is just after thethings that I've gone through in
my life, after living in acertain period of your life,
just completely superficial, youknow, and then pretending to be
somebody for everybody else. Ihave noticed. Desire to be that
way anymore? Yeah, I went alittle too far the other way,
(05:03):
I'm sure, based on peopleuncomfortable a little bit
sometimes, but not generally.
Most people are willing to betheir authentic selves if they
trust that you're being yourauthentic self. You know, they
don't want to be tricked intogiving away their secrets if
you're not putting anything onthe line. But,
Sarah Byrnes (05:18):
yeah, your honesty gives them permission, kind of
thing. Like, they can be honesttoo. I'm like, as a fellow
neurodivergent, I 100%understand that, like, just cut
through it all. What would yousay your long term goals are? Or
short long term goals? Itdoesn't have to be like, you
(05:38):
don't need to have a two yearplan. Like,
Bryan German (05:40):
well, yeah, thanks for qualifying that little bit.
Right now we're looking atbuying house. We made an offer
on house a few weeks ago, and itdidn't work out because, you
know, we felt like they wereasking way more than than a
house is worth, and we werewilling to put some work into
(06:01):
it, so we were willing to getinto it a certain price point.
But it was cool. That was cool.
That was the first time thatwe're putting off our own house.
And hopefully sometime in thenext, you know, three to nine
months, we'll, we'll buy one andmove in and have our own place.
Sarah Byrnes (06:09):
I hope you get a chance to get that house.
That's, that's awesome. That's agreat thing to do. Yeah, what
are other or do you have anyother certain topics you enjoy
discussing? Like, is there I getyou said you work for the Geek
Squad, like, do you like tech?
Do you like to, like, talk abouttech or something else.
Bryan German (06:25):
I mean I do. Yeah, yeah. We talk about that a lot.
I work with a lot of mycoworkers, a lot of my coworkers
little bit younger, but, I mean,we all talk about Minecraft.
Everybody loves Minecraft. So Ican get a little lost in that
game sometimes, but talk aboutthat. Or, you know, sometimes
other new games that are comingout, they all play D and D, and
I haven't played that for a longtime, so I don't have a whole
lot to talk about, as far asthat goes, but that or new apps,
(06:47):
or how the computers work. Imean, it's, yeah, a lot about a
lot about tech. But I've alsoworked in construction recently,
too, so we'll talk about that.
And I always cook and bringleftovers. And so I talked to
them about food that I eat, andI always try to get people to
try it. Hey, we just made this.
You want to try this? Give thema bite. You know,
Sarah Byrnes (07:05):
I'm like, you'd be my favorite coworker. I love
that. I worked in a lot ofplaces where there was a kitchen
right by and i You always makefriends with the chef. You
always make friends with a chef.
Smart guy, yeah, well, that'sawesome. I was like, there's a
lot of going on with AI and techand, I mean, all of that stuff
right now too. So that's prettycool. Do you have any like,
recent accomplishments you wantto share anything like that,
(07:28):
other than trying to buy ahouse? I mean, that's awesome.
Just getting through thatprocess.
Bryan German (07:32):
That's a big thing. It's a little stressful.
We're trying to pay off debt atthe same time, so we started
looking earlier than we canactually afford to move in, but
it's good to get out there, seewhat's on the market, and start
moving in that direction. I havebeen involved with a group we
meet in Helena about once amonth at the Department of
(07:56):
Corrections and talk aboutissues related to to
correctional policy and abouthow they deal with with
offenders. We are getting readyto go into Deer Lodge this
weekend to teach two seminarsabout wellness, recovery action
plans. So we're gonna bring thatto the guys. And really cool,
(08:18):
yeah, yeah, and hopefully givesome some guys, some just common
sense tools that will allow themto figure out who they want to
be, who they are, as their bestselves, and then just work
towards that and not put likeshe big expectations about
understanding this or that, butjust common sense approach.
Sarah Byrnes (08:36):
Yeah, I always say to my daughter, you know, small
steps, just keep moving forward.
So just as long as we can keepdoing it, that's how we get to
school in the morning. Likethat's everything. Is that just
that program, just for people inthe correctional system, or is
it going to be more widely done?
Bryan German (08:54):
So what what we're doing, the initiative we're
working on, is just for the guyswho are inside. Hopefully we'd
like to set up some peermentoring so as they go to
transition to the outside, if Ihave some more support. But rap
itself is a larger program thatdeals with people in in
recovery, throughout throughoutthe country, and a couple of
different places in a couple ofdifferent countries. I'm not
(09:16):
sure where it isinternationally, but I know it's
it's been around. It's anational organization, the
advocates for human potential.
They publish the documents anddo the trainings and certify
people. And you know what repstands for? I wasn't sure. Yeah,
wellness, Recovery Action Plan.
Sarah Byrnes (09:33):
Oh, awesome. Yeah, that's just like you were saying
to go there and just kind ofgive them those tools. Did you
have any tools that you learnedabout or the ones that were most
useful for you that you're goingto share?
Bryan German (09:46):
The crazy thing is that I didn't know anything
about rap back in the day, but alot of what it does translates
into and I think aligns with alot of people's experience,
because it is such a commonsense based approach. But it
goes beyond that to do. A coupleother tenants are to treat
people with unconditional highregard, you know. And so when
(10:10):
you treat people as if you valuethem, and when you show that you
actually do value them, thenthey tend to want to live up to
that, you know. They tend towant to be worthy of that, and
they treat you in the same way.
And so that kind of approach isdifferent than you can see in a
lot of different places in theworld. And so I think it's
valuable in and of itself forme, my my wellness and my my
(10:32):
journey was really just madepossible and bolstered at so
many points just by therelationships that I made with
the relationships that I madewith the people that I was
around, and just being able to,like literally, talk about
whatever it was that was goingon in our life and what we were
struggling with, and how thingsfrom our past drove us and to
(10:53):
just be able to talk in a safespace with people that You know
cared about you, that didn'tjudge you, that that that
allowed me to recover myself ina way that wouldn't have been
possible otherwise. And so tohave that, and to to treat
people like they're the experton themselves, right? Like you
don't, you don't need to havesomebody explain to you the
(11:16):
finer details of these, youknow, philosophical or
psychological theories, in orderto get a better understanding of
yourself, if you just have acommon sense approach, have
conversations with people thatcare about you, that have a
little bit of insight. You valuetheir insight. You can talk
freely about what you're goingthrough. I don't know that you
really need a whole heck of alot more.
Sarah Byrnes (11:39):
Yeah, just the experience of living and like
going through life just knowingyourself too. Yeah, I get that
that sounds like a powerful toolfor people to accept themselves,
is to have someone else alsomirror that too, that you're
you're being accepted into safespace, like you said, where
there's a huge thing, oh yeah, Iwas gonna say, where there's any
influential people who kind ofbrought that to you. Did you
(12:01):
have some mentors?
Bryan German (12:04):
I did, yeah, we were, we were mentoring each
other because we were justtrying to figure it all out. So
so my my story is that Icommitted a violent crime in
1998 and I went to prison foralmost 20 years, and so my
wellness and my recovery was inan institutional setting, and so
(12:26):
being around other people whohad similar experiences to mine,
we were all just trying tofigure out how to not be the
same people that we had been inthe past, you know, and and it's
crazy to say that, but becausemost of the people that I know
weren't unhinged, they wentthrough some some shit and had
(12:51):
bad responses to that, you knowwhat I mean. And so the the
judgment that you get when youwhen you talk about those kind
of things, are that things thatyou see people's people's
reactions because they don'thave a context. Most people
don't have a context forunderstanding that, or for being
able to respond with anythingother than fear to that. That
kind of discussion. We all wentthrough groups at different
(13:12):
times, different kind of grouptherapies, and talked about
those kinds of things. I had alot of different programs over
the years that they would bringto try to to try to fix people
who are broken, you know, andsome of that is, is valuable,
absolutely something that can begained from from those kinds of
programs. Is, was it valuable?
Definitely. But just honestly,being around people who have
(13:35):
that same kind of an approachthat just wanted to be better,
that was it. They just wanted tobe better people and and well,
well into it to work and talkabout whatever they were going
through in their struggle to getto move in that direction. And
you always have the end goal inmind, like, hey, I want to get
out of prison and stay out,which is, is part of it. But
(13:58):
that that drive to to just notbe the person that I was is
huge.
Sarah Byrnes (14:07):
Yeah, I'm sure, like you were saying, like,
circumstances play a huge rolein a lot of choices that people
make. Doesn't always mean thatsomebody coming out of you
doesn't have that experience,they don't know what choice they
would have made, you know, andin any situation. And, yeah,
that's and it sounds likethere's a lot of self awareness
going on too. I mean, if you'retalking to each other about it,
(14:27):
just peer to peer, workingthrough it. That's that takes a
lot of self awareness. And Iknow that's something that can
be a little more rare nowadays.
Bryan German (14:38):
It can be, yeah, but ironically, I've always
found for myself. I've alwaysfound more of that with people
who have been through somethingin life, who have been through
addiction and are working ontheir recovery, who have made a
mistake, been incarcerated, andare trying to, trying to grow as
people and so that kind of selfawareness, that kind. Of just
(15:03):
trying to be a better person,trying to make choices that
matter for the right reasons,that that kind of
intentionality, it requireshaving suffered through
something in order to, like,really keep that a slow burn for
for a lifetime. I think,
Sarah Byrnes (15:21):
yeah, you saying that intentionality, that sounds
like you being involved in rapis a huge part of your like,
recovery as well, just wantingto do that give back to help
other people.
Bryan German (15:35):
Yeah, yeah. We started. WRAP is a recent thing,
but we started, like, a year anda half ago, we decided that we
were going to go into thefacilities and just talk to
people who were there, just totry to, as inspire a sense of
hope, just share them. You know,the hope that that got a lot of
us through. And so there was agap from about 20 people that
(15:57):
got together, and we decidedthat that would be a good thing.
And so we've gone in with groupsof anywhere from from two to,
you know, little more than adozen, into what, you know, the
men's facility in Deer Lodge.
We've been up to Shelby. We endup the juvenile facility in Pine
hills and in Mile city, to thewomen's prison in Billings. And
just go to into those places andjust try to talk to people
(16:18):
about, about what, about whatworks for us and and why we were
able to be successful and stay,stay clean and sober on the
streets, stay, you know, crimefree on the streets. Whatever,
you know, whatever the issueswere, just even to to heal from,
from whatever traumas that we'vebeen through in our lives. And
so it's really pretty cool tosee some of the impact that can
(16:41):
be made that way. One of myfavorite places to go is pine
hills, you know, because there'sa lot of, a lot of young men
there that you know arestruggling to just to grow up.
You know, how do when you're,you know, 12 to 18, that's,
that's a fraught time period, nomatter what. But you take it to
that, whatever trauma they'vebeen through, whatever bad
(17:02):
decisions they are made, and howthat affected them, and how they
responded to that. And, yeah,one of one of the guys in our
group, he he likes to take themfishing. He goes down there, and
the management there lets themtake a couple of them out
fishing, and they just go outfish and talk about stuff that
(17:22):
guys talk about when they'redoing that, you know. And for,
yeah, yeah, for some, some youngman who grew up with, maybe with
or without fathers, butdefinitely, not necessarily with
a good male role model, to beable to just kind of have that
experience is, it's pretty cool.
He loves it.
Sarah Byrnes (17:39):
That sounds awesome. That sounds like a
great initiative. I mean, goingin all those places and just
sharing your story, like thisworked for me. I know a lot of
people say, like, you know, noteverything works the same for
everybody, so you've got to findyour own kind of path. But
knowing what's worked for otherpeople really helps, kind of
(17:59):
helps other people figure outwhat, what they can do for
themselves, too, yeah,
Bryan German (18:02):
yeah. It puts it under context, and just lets you
even know that as possible,right? Like you don't know it's
possible unless you see otherpeople succeed. I know that when
you're sitting in an institutionand, you know, you see so many
people coming back and so manypeople not getting an
opportunity to get out, then itcan be pretty hopeless, you
know, but to just have that kindof message hopefully will make a
(18:25):
difference for some people, andit has the some of the comments
that we get are pretty cool.
Sarah Byrnes (18:30):
That's awesome. So when people learn about your
lived experience, is thereanything that you kind of
notice, or reactions that younotice that you get,
Bryan German (18:41):
I know, yeah, there's, there's a few different
kinds. I guess you can breakthem down into categories. One
is like, no way you you don'tlook like you would have enough,
yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. I mean,I appreciate that, but you can't
always judge by, you know, whatyou see right in front, right?
And you know, the other one is,is, you can see, there's a lot
(19:01):
of times there's a look of, ohmy God, Who am I talking to?
Who? Who is this in front of me?
You know, what? What's gonnahappen? Are they gonna are they
gonna freak out on me? Are theygonna act weird or, you know, or
are they like the ones that Isaw on, you know, 90 days in,
or, I forget what all the motherprison shows are. I never
watched any of them. You know,
Sarah Byrnes (19:21):
all I could think of was scared straight when
you're talking about the kids.
And I was like, I don't know. I
Bryan German (19:24):
Oh yeah, yeah. We had so we had, I grew up in in
don't know how I feel aboutthat, but
Washington state, and we hadsome people come from they had
been to the jails out there, andthey came to our high school
when I was a teenager, and wewere supposed to all hang out in
the in the cafeteria, and listento them, I differ a little bit.
And then, you know, my friendsstep off and because it just, it
(19:46):
doesn't hit that way, you know,right? Because, to me, it just
lacks, there's no realconnection. You know what? I
mean, it's like, yeah, you needto act right, or you're gonna
Yeah. And that's, I don't know.
I don't think that's a good wayto reach people,
Sarah Byrnes (19:59):
yeah. I can see that like there wasn't that's
not a peer, that's somebodycoming in and saying, don't do
what I did. I mean, and as a asa parent, I personally know that
doesn't work for my kids. So,oh, yeah.
Bryan German (20:14):
Oh, are we down to the parent? Or you're like,
you're gonna get in trouble. Andyou're like, okay, yes,
sometimes you're worse, but notvery often.
Sarah Byrnes (20:22):
So looking back, is there anything that kind of
spurred your want to go intorecovery, or that process of
recovery?
Bryan German (20:31):
I mean, just a sense of desperation, you know?
I mean, there are some choicesyou can make and some things
that you can do that can get youto a point in your life where
you don't see a way out. And youcan run from that sense of
feeling lost or trapped or thathelplessness, but you can only
run for so long. I just got to acertain point where I couldn't
(20:57):
do that, you know, and I wasn'tcrazy out running the streets,
doing wild stuff. You know, Iwas mostly tame. And what got me
into into my situation, was notlike some some stories, right,
right? It was enough, right,yeah, but seeing how it affected
(21:21):
my family, and the fact that,you know, my family, after I got
sentenced, they were, they wereright there with me, you know.
And they that the pain that Isaw on them, seeing, you know, I
watched my son grow up in avisiting room, you know, and
have my daughter's mom not wantto have contact with me, and
(21:42):
also I didn't even get to talkto my daughter until after she
was 18, really. So the pain ofseeing how my actions affected
them was a big thing, and to seethat they still had help from me
even in those hopelesscircumstances, I think you know,
those two things together, thethe desperation that I felt, but
(22:02):
the the fact that they werestill willing to be there,
providing whatever support theycould. You know, I was as a
teenager. You know, I had, I hadtwo kids before I was 19, and I
never felt like I could actuallybe a father, because my
relationship with my father wasbroad, and so to see that just
(22:28):
them, just being there, wasmaking a difference for me, made
me kind of realize that I didn'thave to worry so much about
whether or not I could be afather. I just had to be there,
and then to see how that'splayed out over time is pretty
incredible experience. You know,I've had a good relationship
with both of my children now,and they're both married. My son
(22:50):
bought a house last year, and wehave a great relationship and
that, you know, I want to saymore than anything else, but my
relationship with my wife is upthere too, and my relationship
is with all my family. But thoseare, those are my success
stories, more than anythingelse, being able to spend time
with them and be there for themfrom those big moments and for
(23:10):
them to know that even though Icouldn't be there for most of
their life, that that I wantedto and to it to accept any kind
of love for me is is incredible,given the circumstances, that's
remarkable. They're, they'regreat kids.
Sarah Byrnes (23:26):
That's amazing.
Yeah, I was gonna say it soundedlike you had at least some some
people with a as a supportnetwork for you too, when you
went in, yeah, where you were inthat situation. And I know that
it's not always rare, but maybeyou don't know until you get
there that you have people thatare willing to support you.
Bryan German (23:45):
Yeah, yeah. I saw that in a lot of my friends'
lives, you know, where they wererunning the streets, doing
whatever they were doing,feeling like they were totally
on their own. And then they getinto that situation and and
realize that, oh, there is somefamily members who still want to
support you, and we're trying tosupport you all along where you
all along where you couldn't seeit, couldn't accept that from
Sarah Byrnes (24:05):
Yeah, and I'm sure that's powerful too, to know
that you know, even if you'reaccepting, like I messed up and
somebody's there for you at thatsame time too. So yeah, I just
think that support system soimportant. So with the work that
you do now, do you still have asupport system that you lean on?
Bryan German (24:26):
Oh, it's hard, because most of my support, or
not, most of my support system,but my, I guess, the support
system that had a context forme, you know, who had shared
similar experiences with me,those guys, there's they're
still inside, and some of them,we never get out. And so having
that leave that behind and comeout to a world that is is mostly
(24:47):
foreign. You know, even thoughI'm going on the family, it's
that's a disorienting process.
You know, I do have some somefriends, mostly ones who were on
that. Committee with me andHelena that I can reach out to
sometimes, and we can, we canhave good conversations together
and be a good support for eachother. We're trying to build out
(25:09):
a little bit more than it hasbeen, because it's been a little
sporadic. But for the most part,when you get out of prison, they
want you to leave all of thatbehind, yeah, and in large part,
you know, those, those guys wereresponsible for, for me being
able to find a better sense ofmyself and to, you know, really
(25:30):
come to my senses. You know,yeah, it couldn't have happened
without the support of myfamily. But at the same time, it
couldn't happen without thesupport of my peers. So, um, are
Sarah Byrnes (25:43):
there any support services that you used when you
were trying to re acclimate, oranything that helped you?
Bryan German (25:50):
Um, yeah, I went through the pre release here in
Missoula, and that was I thoughtI didn't need it because I had
family support. You know? Yeah,I was like, I just want to go
home. Why are you making me goto pre release. But in
hindsight, as I and as I wasgoing through the process,
really, I was glad for thosekind of safeguards and that kind
of support, because they theymake sure that you do some
things that that just kind ofmakes sense as you're going
(26:11):
through that big of atransition. They want you to
talk to a counselor at least sixtimes. You know, if you have
addiction issues, they want youto go to AA or NA. They want you
to see an addictions counselor,if that's what you need. They
want you to just addresswhatever your issues are,
whatever they they think isgoing to put you at risk. They
want you to address that headon, and then they like have
(26:34):
safeguards as you become morefinancially stable. So I mean,
that was, that was a good thingfor me to go through that kind
of a transition. Absolutely. Iwent to some AA and or, yeah,
some AA, some NA meetings whileI was going through there. But
(26:54):
for me, my journey has been moreabout recovering a sense of
wellness than actuallyrecovering from an addiction to
a substance. And so while I canhave conversations, and I hold a
lot in common with people whoare recovering from addiction to
substances, my journey is been,I guess, a little bit different
(27:17):
than some of that, because,like, I smoked a little bit of
weed when I was in high schooland just after that, but I
didn't battle with some of theother substances that some
people get drawn into. And Iwasn't out long enough. I don't
know if I would have, if I was,you know, if I hadn't known a
prison but that wasn't the maindriver of my host of issues.
(27:41):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Sarah Byrnes (27:42):
It does make sense. Yeah, for sure. I mean,
like your mental health andwellness, like you were saying,
is also really important, justquality of life, too. So trying
to make sure that getting thatpoint, that's pretty it's pretty
amazing that you're on thatjourney. And thank you for
sharing. Well, thank you. Isthere anything else that you'd
(28:03):
want to share with us, justabout being in recovery, or
what? How people you know,people you were saying, people
reacted in these different ways.
But honestly, for me, people arepeople, and I've always said
that, so I'm like, Just treatpeople like you would. Treat
yourself. Hopefully, that's goodway, good way, though, with
respect. Yeah. So is thereanything other things you'd want
(28:27):
to say to somebody who ismeeting someone in recovery for
the first time, or just ingeneral, to the community?
Bryan German (28:35):
To me, it comes back to something that we had
talked about earlier, that ifyou go into those kind of
interactions, just being honestwith yourself and being open and
honest with the other person, Imean, that's the only way to
really interact with people ingeneral, right? I think when
interacting with people, ifyou're honest, you have to
(28:56):
attribute them better intentionsthan you sometimes want to you
know, because most people aretrying their best to do their
best, and sometimes that mightnot look very good to you, but
you don't always have a contextfor what is behind whatever
somebody is going through at anypoint in time, I have had a
(29:18):
great response From a number ofpeople at work who have known
about my circumstance before. Iknew that they knew, you know,
and then and got a chance tocome to terms with that
themselves, and then later on, Ifind out that they know we have
conversations about that, and isit has changed for the better
how they interact with me. Andso that kind of understanding
(29:40):
that you can have from justhaving honest interactions with
people is, is as revolutionary,really?
Sarah Byrnes (29:47):
Yeah, that sounds awesome, like just, have just
asked the question, berespectful. But ask the
question,
Bryan German (29:52):
yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. And, you know, there
are some people that arereserved for me. There's not
really. Be any questions that Ifeel like are off limits, and so
you'll get a certain type ofresponse from me, some people
might feel like, especially ifthey feel like you're judging
them. I think that's the onlytime that people are generally
closed off. If you can askquestions and interact with
(30:13):
people in a way that that trulyis non judgmental, then it
totally changes everything abouthow you interact with people,
yeah?
Sarah Byrnes (30:23):
So, just people being open to learning about
someone else's experience. Yeah,I'm always, I'm always about,
you know, don't, don't knocksomeone for their small
victories too, because it couldbe big for them, but it might
seem small, but it's big. And I,I feel like that comes from my
neurodivergence. But, uh, yeah.
Just assess. Sometimes my brainneeds, needs to celebrate all
the small things. So I totallyget that, yeah, and
Bryan German (30:48):
you gotta remind yourself as that is okay, and
anything necessary to celebratethose things sometimes, because
you get to have it such a habitof judging yourself, you know,
according to other people'sstandards. And if I mean, does
bullshit, right? Yeah, but yeah,you can go through your life
doing that, and there's, there'sno reason for it. It just sets
(31:09):
you up, right?
Sarah Byrnes (31:09):
Yeah, yep. It's all about, for me, it's about
the humanizing. It's everyone'shuman. Everyone people just
recognizing, like you said, justcome talk to you. And some
people might not be comfortablewith that, but ask the question,
and if they say no, just respecttheir No. That's my Yeah, that's
my take on that. So
Bryan German (31:28):
yeah, I think it's so hard a lot of times to deal
with other people on their ownterms. I mean, it's not high for
me, because that's like now mydefault mode, but a lot of
people struggle with that, andit's, it's weird, because I
didn't think that that was goingto be the issue when I was
growing up. You know, yet, mostpeople would have such a
difficult time just acceptingpeople on their own terms and
(31:52):
dealing with them, or notdealing with them, but
interacting with them in a wayit reflects that, you know,
Sarah Byrnes (31:58):
yes, I know that's definitely hard for people like
just just saying, accept the No.
I know that's hard for a lot ofpeople to accept the No, so
yeah, but I'm hoping this isgoing to be an impactful thing
to share with the community andjust everyone at large, and
knowing all the good stuff likeyou're doing with the group that
(32:18):
you're in and and introducingrap, and how impactful those
things can be, just that humaninteraction and that peer to
peer, just talking it out, yeah.
And there, I don't, thereshouldn't be any shame or stigma
or like, anything associatedwith that, because we, all our
brains, are complex, man andjust trying to talk it out,
(32:39):
that's a good thing.
Bryan German (32:41):
Yeah, yeah. And most people live going through
stuff, you know, yeah, we allhave stuff, right? And there's
no reason to like try to keepthat hidden, or, yeah, to use
the word stigmatized, yep,that's just the common human
experience. If it's a commonhuman experience, why do we
gotta like, try to sweep itunder the rug or pretend to get
(33:01):
us up in the fist, or any ofthat, you know, yeah. And so
that's a big part of one of thebig wins about us being able to
take rap into the facilities andhopefully set up some peer
mentoring, is to if we can getthe the system to recognize that
that people in institutions canhelp each other and be a support
(33:25):
for each other, and to like,like formally accept that and
have space, hold space for that.
I think that's going to be a bigwin and and I I think that
that's possible. It's going totake a little bit more work, but
I think it's possible, and I'mglad to be working on that.
Sarah Byrnes (33:42):
Well, I'm rooting for you. That sounds awesome,
yeah, like you said, don't needto cut off your support network.
Like, like you were saying,like, those are impactful
relationships too. So,
Unknown (33:53):
all right. Well, thank you. Great to share. That's
okay, no worries. All right.
Well, have a great one. Yeah,you too.
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