April 14, 2021 • 43 mins
Our featured guest for episode 2 is Claudia Santamaria.
She is the legal counsel in charge of Cisco Mexico for the past 8 years and currently leader of Women of Cisco Mexico and Community impact Mexico.
On personal note she is a wife, housewife and mother of Twin girls 3 years and a half.
We talk about her journey prior to taking on leadership role in the DEI space and some of the key impetus points for that shift to lead. We discuss stories of allyship and how to develop allies as well as common challenges women face in the corporate world.
Claudia is a phenomenal leader and truly does not hold back any commentary. Transparent and Thought provoking.
thank you for tuning in!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Umesh Lakshman (00:07):
Hello everyone, my name is Umesh Lakshman, the
host and creator of breakingboundaries. Before we begin, I
wanted to take a moment. Andthank you for choosing to tune
in to this program, either onYouTube, Spotify, or Apple
podcasts. With the plethora ofoptions out there, my goal is to
(00:29):
make this valuable, insightfuland thought provoking use of
your time. You can find moreinformation about both me and
the program at dub dub dub dubbreaking boundaries online.com.
If you know anyone who wouldlike to be part of this program,
or if you'd like to be featuredon this podcast, please drop me
(00:49):
an email to Amish, u m. e. s. h,at breaking boundaries
online.com. The goal of breakingboundaries as a platform is to
interview everyday heroes toshare their learnings, their
struggles, and the wins in thesearch for a more inclusive and
(01:10):
diverse landscape. both withinand outside of the workplace.
Each of them have transcendedstereotypes and have created
something not only forthemselves, but also for others.
So without further ado, welcometo breaking boundaries.
(01:34):
Again, thank you for joining us,Claudia. So for those of you who
are listening, Claudia, SantaMaria is going to be the guest
for the second episode ofbreaking boundaries. And a
little bit about Claudia.
Claudia is the lawyer in chargeof Cisco, Mexico for the past
seven years. She's the currentleader of women at Cisco, Mexico
and community impact at Mexico.
(01:58):
On a personal note, she is thewife, she's a housewife, and the
mother to two beautiful twins,three and a half years old. So
and she does it all with abeautiful smile. So I have we
applaud her for being able tolike keep everything together
and still doing all of thiswork. So thank you for joining
us on the show today. But yeah,
Unknown (02:18):
thanks to you. Thanks, Dan.
Umesh Lakshman (02:21):
And the co host today again is nobody needs an
introduction, Tonya Escobar, shedid the co host role for the
prior recording as well. She isthe global lead for men for
inclusion. And with that said,kind of going to start it off.
Right. So Claudia, we'd love toknow your journey right at a
(02:43):
very high level where it allstarted for you. I know you've
done a lot of work on women aCisco you're done, you've been
in a domain, which is also alittle bit on the masculine side
of the house. Right as a lawyer.
So it'll be great to kind oflike just get where did that all
start? what triggered you toeven get into legal? Right, some
(03:03):
of the history growing up, andthen we can maybe dovetail into
different aspects.
Claudia Santamaria (03:11):
Sure, thanks so much. Well, I my father, he
was in the army, actually, hewas a very strict guy very,
according to the rules and whatneeds to be done, right. So I
grew up with that image in mymind. So I decided to be a
lawyer because of that, becauseI love justice. I love to do the
right thing almost all the time.
At this point of my life. It'salmost all the time. But I enjoy
(03:33):
a lot of that. So I decided tobe a lawyer to get justice for
everybody for the persons thatcannot have done justice. Then
when I started my career, Idecided that corporate law was
much more like myself know thecriminal one because it's very
hard, especially in Mexico. So Idecided to follow this corporate
(03:55):
path. And as you mentioned, as alawyer, it's a masculine world,
actually. Still now there's alot of women lawyers, but until
now it's more masculine. So mycareer career life has been a
true telecommunications, which Ilove. And I have been working in
that since a long time ago andnot going to say my age. I'd
(04:18):
have like, more space andworking with the with the
logistics industry, which Ididn't like I have to say
because if a telecommunicationstelecommunications is masculine,
logistics you cannot imagine. Imean, there were only two
director women. And it was very,very hard because all the
(04:41):
customers, all their providers,they were men, I'm not
complaining I love men for sure.
But it's a very, very hard wordactually because they treat you
sometimes like with no respect.
They do not respect youropinion. They think you are
Sometimes, like a piece of meat,I have to recognize that that I
(05:02):
felt that way so many times atthat a role. So I decided to
leave because I didn't like thatat all. So when I joined Cisco,
it was the first time in myprofessional life that I
discover a company that trulyrespect and a truly incentive
all these values aboutinclusion, about diversity
(05:26):
about, for example, women ofCisco, et cetera, et cetera. So
I love that because it was sonew for me, right? To be part of
this community, a, even when Ihave some issues when I started
a Cisco, and I want to sharethis with you. Because when I
was in the interviews to joinCisco, I had, I received a
specific comment from one of myinterviewers, now it's my
(05:52):
friend, he's a very close friendof mine, but at that time, we
didn't know each other. I hetold me, you know, you don't
need to be concerned about ifyou're going to join Cisco or
not, because he's comparingagainst a man, you are going to
take the role. And I say like,why, right? I mean, if we
already equal conditions, and hetold me because you're a woman,
(06:12):
and Cisco is looking to increasea woman a quotation, so I was
I'm very expressive with myface. And I was like, Really? I
was so upset because of thatcomment. He told me Yes. Because
you look, very Dude, you arevery tall, you are pretty. So
you, you have some that thosekinds of advantage. I was legit
(06:34):
cannot believe I was like, Oh,good to know. However, I'm
positive. I'm sure that if Iwant to join Cisco, it's because
of my professional skills, notbecause I'm tall, or about a
woman or I pretty or wherever,right? He was very ashamed at
that time. He was like, No, no,please don't misunderstand
(06:54):
these, etc, etc. What he said.
So I decided to do this in apositive way. Because I like to
be sure about myself and aboutwho am I. So I decided that if I
was picked for this role, it wasonly because of my professional
(07:15):
skills. And I still at thispoint seven years later, I think
that was the right, a, apositive feeling I have at that
time.
Umesh Lakshman (07:26):
So I have a follow up question there. And
and it's not a question but moreof a common to everybody's
listening. So when you and Ispoke last week, Claudia, you
mentioned this very clearly, andI'm looking at my notes. You
said I don't want to be hard,because I'm a woman who is tall
and pretty. And I don't want tobe judged for stereotypes. And I
(07:46):
thought that was very powerful.
The other thing I did, youimmediately followed that up
with, I want to be hired becauseof my professional skills. And
because I'm intelligent, I'mpowerful, and I'm a leader.
Right? And both very strongstatements. How much of that one
incident, right, really pivotedthe way you thought about a lot
(08:08):
of other things down the road.
Claudia Santamaria (08:13):
It'd be a lot, actually, because I felt
the necessity to prove at thattime that I was hired because of
that what you mentioned, becauseI was on board for because I
know to do my job very well,because I'm sure that I
performed my role in a very goodway because that's why I'm still
here. And I have the respect ofthe directors, I work with them.
(08:33):
My internal customers, externalcustomers, I have very good
relations internally and withour customers with the law, a
customer lawyers. So for me, itwas like a change my mind about
Okay, maybe I haven't receivedthat comment that directly
before. But it's always there,right? Because your toe because
you think your previous saidthat I got more advantage. And
(08:55):
that is not true. I let me tellyou that I have never used my
weight or my height or whatever,to obtain something never in my
life because I always preferthis compliment. Like you're
intelligent, instead of you'repretty to be just as intelligent
(09:15):
as praying, right? Because thatlast forever. So that was yes,
that helped me a lot tounderstand where I was, and how
I wanted to other people andespecially other women to be
treated like right to berespected and to have a place in
the company in their own areas,etc. Because of their skills,
(09:38):
not because of their looks.
Tania Escobar (09:43):
can ask a follow up question. You mentioned that.
Now you're you have a goodrelationship with this person.
Right and you're now at thatpoint of friendship. But I know
when I've had experienceshearing comments like that does
couple things. It one fuels thefire, like you said, makes you
(10:03):
want to prove, you know, yourskills and competency, which can
be a good thing. But on theother hand, it also can build a
wall between you and the person.
Right? So how did how did thatperson who said that comment,
make things right? Or show, youknow, a growth and a learning so
that you could get to the placeof friendship, you know, and
(10:23):
being amicable with each other?
Because sometimes people getcaught into that mistake. And
then Okay, well,
Claudia Santamaria (10:32):
actually, she's very mature again, when
after I was hired, we have aninformal lunch of the director
of staff in Mexico, like two orthree months later, after I was
hired. I he told me I'mcongratulations that you're
here. And I want to borrow yourswith you. Because I saw your
face, I saw the way you lookedat me and they and the
(10:55):
interview, and they were lookingat me like, I cannot believe
you're saying that. Right. So Iwas very ashamed of what I said
to you. Because I know you havea lot of skills, professional
skills, etc, etc. And I have tosay, Yes, you were so out of
line. Somehow I was so surprisedbecause of your argument.
Because as I mentioned to mesh,I'm very open, I'm very direct.
(11:17):
Maybe they can sometimes likeaggressive. I'm not what I want
to say what I want to say,right? If I need to be fair, I'm
fair. And that's I'm apologizingbecause I'm fearing, or because
I said something that was neededto be said. So I said to him,
yes, you were out of line. I wasso surprised because of your
comment. But I'm glad that youapologize. So we can be friends
(11:42):
now. Then we started to worktogether in a lot of a purple
prayers. I told me once Irespect you so much, because you
are very fair, because you knowhow to communicate yourself
because you know what you'redoing, right? Because we close a
very important deal. So when Igained his respect, I was like,
(12:02):
Yes, I know it, because that'swhy I'm here right now. Because
if I were worried,
Tania Escobar (12:08):
yeah. But the point of acknowledgment is so
important, right? You cannotbuild the bridge to like you
said that respect or being ableto collaborate together without
that honoring what happened. SoI'm very glad to hear that. You
were honest about that. And he,he accept, you know, he accepted
that as learning and a teachingmoment. So yeah,
Unknown (12:31):
and you're right, done.
And just because I will neverrespect somebody that doesn't
respect me. I need to feel therespect of the other party. To
respect him, I will never expectsomebody that looks at me like a
piece of meat, right? I wouldnever would have that a
connection.
Umesh Lakshman (12:51):
I one quick comment I want to take and maybe
make it for everybody who'slistening is it is okay to call
out something that is happeningthat is wrong, as long as it is
respectful. And I think that'skind of what you're highlighting
here is you don't know what youdon't know. So sometimes people
don't know the mistakes they'remaking till somebody actually
(13:14):
calls shit out. Right? That'sthe easiest way to say it.
Everybody on this call has madea mistake that we didn't know we
were making to somebody calledit so it's it's it's something
especially in when it comes todiversity and inclusion. I'm I
love the fact that the story isabout somebody making a mistake,
(13:36):
or acknowledging a mistake, butalso alongside you calling out
the mistake. All three thingsneed to happen for it to work. I
love that one of the kids thatalso screaming at the same.
Unknown (13:49):
Sorry.
Umesh Lakshman (13:50):
No, it's completely fine. This is 2020
This is exactly how it'ssupposed to be. It's a good
plugin for babble labs,integration, right to remove all
the background noise.
Unknown (14:02):
Yep, can't wait for that. Yeah.
Umesh Lakshman (14:05):
Cool. Awesome.
I'm actually gonna like if youdon't mind today, I'm going to
take the next question here,which is the you talked about?
Okay, that was a very definingmoment. And there was also
another external factor. Wetalked about where you came
into, you came into Cisco, youcame in, in into a domain where
you saw the need for a women ofCisco kind of competence to
(14:25):
exist in Latin America andliterally spearheaded that and
started it. So can you give usmore around what started all of
that for you?
Claudia Santamaria (14:38):
Yeah, well, it's more likely women. In
Mexico. There was also witnessesfrom Mexico and I, I joined
because I love to support otherwomen. And as mentioned to you,
in order to support somebodyelse, and especially a man
generally to like her do judoneed to be her friend. You just
need to be a woman as well andto understand our position
(15:00):
Right, where are we in here inthis communication work, so I
decided to join because I liketo be part of that community.
And then when they currentlythere at that time, left to live
with an office full time, I wasinvited to take this role as the
leader of women of Cisco,Mexico. And I was thrilled about
it, because there are so muchthings to do. You never stop to
(15:24):
learn and to create and toinnovate, how many activities or
how many things to involve otherwomen and also men, right? So I
decided to have a twist here toimplement a new activities like
having this executive breakfastwith our executives, men and
(15:44):
women, and to have like a smallamount of invited women in order
to provide them this visibility,this honest chat, right? How our
executives, look at the women ofCisco, not only because we are
like this, hi, they are so nice.
They are meeting every threemonths. And that's great. Oh,
because we wanted to be taketaken serious. I mean, we want
(16:08):
to have sponsors, we want tohave our executive support. We
want them to be actuallyinvolved not only talking but
doing right, to have a more, forexample, women involved with
them to have this executiveshallowing. This sponsoring and
say there are so manyinitiatives, real initiatives to
(16:28):
have a deliverable for ourmembers to have for them, again,
something that they say, I lovethis, I liked it, I want to
embrace these, I want more ofthese. How can I be seen, we
launched a program this pastmonth, and it's about a growing
yourself, not onlyprofessionally, but a person on
(16:49):
the right, emotionalintelligence, you rematch your
brand, how do you see yourself?
How do you sell yourself insidethe company? how other people
looks at you? Right? Becausesometimes our image what the
people look so much different toyourself. So we are trying to
(17:10):
work on that. Because I thinkthat it's very important that
you have conscious of yourself.
Umesh Lakshman (17:20):
Sorry, as I was getting out of mute there and
trying to figure out my ownWebEx for today. So there's,
there was one comment he madewhen we spoke, which was around
women in executive roles inLatin America in itself, right?
was very minimum when you cameinto the ecosystem. Right? And
when you join Cisco, how muchhas the landscape changed?
Claudia Santamaria (17:44):
I think it has changed, not that much. But
it has changed for sure. We haveso much more a women leaders,
and they are very involved aswell, a about growing other
women. So I'm very proud ofthat. Because that has changed.
And maybe not as fast as it may,should be. Right. So I think for
(18:08):
all of the women at Lata theysee like an opportunity, right?
Because when I join Cisco, Ithink the opportunity, these
were like this, and now we'relike like this. So it's great.
Right?
Umesh Lakshman (18:21):
Yeah. The when you're talking about opportunity
in general, and access toleadership, one thing you
mentioned just now is to go fromtalking about it to doing
something about it. And that'sliterally where kind of meant
for inclusion fits a lot, rightis we are trying to take and
(18:43):
then to quote Tanya here, we'retrying to take the dominant
group, in this case, men, right?
Take a new angle at what needsto be actually balanced. And
give them a toolkit to actuallydrive better inclusive culture,
drive more diversity on a day today basis at all levels. Right.
The common challenge we see is,leaders get it. Like top line
(19:07):
leaders get it? Right. They saydiversity is important.
Inclusion is important. This ispolicy. Frontline leaders don't
know what to do with that.
They're like, Okay, I'm greatthat my boss is telling me this.
I agree. But I don't know how toput it to work. Right. So what
(19:31):
are some of the things thatyou've seen over the last? I
mean, like you've been in Cisconow seven years. So over the
last seven years, leaders thatdo something well, right when it
comes to changing the diversitystory in general.
Unknown (19:44):
Yes, as mentioned to your mesh, the last time we
spoke, I think a and youmentioned that already. You need
to be honest and very genuineabout this. Not only speaking
with your team and with a womenon your team, you are like
treating them difference, right?
You need to be authentic, youneed to be aligned with what
you're saying and what you'redoing. So for me, is not doing
(20:06):
big stuff, there is no like, I'mgoing to have you like, and I
had to give you a raise and tohave you promoted. No, if you do
not deserve it, you have todeserve it as the rest of the
employees, right. But, forexample, I've learned something
very common. They win. And ithappens to me, it still happens
(20:27):
to me. And a lot of women. Whenyou're talking somebody,
especially a man, they interruptthis is like, they saw many
times they are taking our ideaaway, right? Yeah, yeah, kill
that. But as you mentioned,blah, blah, blah, blah. And
people think that their idea,right. So for me, that is not
respecting myself or any otherperson. So it's a very small
(20:50):
change. Let the other peopletalk. And that's it. And
especially as a woman is notlike we need help, right? Please
don't misunderstand. As a woman,we don't need help, or that
somebody else clowder pcsb?
Because you haven't No, I don'tneed that. I can talk by myself,
I don't need any help to dothat. But please respect when
(21:12):
I'm speaking, right? Becausethere's a lot of that there is
more you can be you can thinkthat experience more No, it's
very important detail, torespect everybody else, right?
To eat their own place to everysingle woman or at a meeting,
etc, etc. And not to repeat thiskind of behaviors. Right? They,
(21:32):
because it happens a lot. I haveseen that a lot. So for me, it's
only not big changes for smallones as well. Right?
Umesh Lakshman (21:41):
Yep. Tony did have a question.
Tania Escobar (21:44):
No, but I wanted to add a comment to that,
because I think I experiencedthat as well, I think it is a
common issue. And I thinkleaders and people, whether
you're a manager or not have tomake space for each other.
Right? And allow folks becausenot everybody will have the same
temperament as well. Not a womanwill feel comfortable speaking
(22:08):
out in an assertive way, andthat's okay. But allowing that
space and for folks to read theenergy of the room. So that when
you see that how, you know,happening where people aren't
being respected or, you know,interrupted, that you take a
step to divert that. And to putfocus back on the person who is
(22:31):
speaking, I think that's, it's asimple thing to do hard to
practice. And so building thatmuscle around it is is key.
Umesh Lakshman (22:42):
Yeah. And to add to that, I'll give you the
outside in kind of a view,right, which is, as a male
leader at a table. So many timesI've seen the same thing, right?
female leader says something.
It's brushed aside, and anothermale leader says the same thing
in different words, and it'slike, oh, that is a great idea.
(23:03):
And it took a while for me toeven figure out what to do.
Right? When I was little, I justwas like, okay, that's kind of
odd. And everybody brushes isoff and walks away right into
the sunset. What recently morerecently I've started doing is
(23:23):
like, that's exactly what shesaid. literally saying that,
right? It's awkward. But it is avery important thing to give
credit where it's due. And ifyou don't you you're not. It's
like silence is complicit.
(23:45):
Right, it's how I see it right,as I like, you can just brush it
aside. So the more of us,whoever listens to this that
goes in and sees something likethis happening. Unfortunately,
you will still continue to seeit in some way, shape, or form
is just don't take the creditdon't highlight the problem. But
you can do all of that in onesentence by saying that is
(24:06):
exactly what she said. Right?
And give credit back to the ladyin the room. So I just want to
make that comment quickly aswell.
Claudia Santamaria (24:14):
No, and I fully agree with you because
that's another important step tomesh to, to recognize whoever is
speaking whoever is talking andalso to be like a sponsor of
some other women because forexample, here in Mexico we have
like this, but Europe give a wayto refer to some women right
(24:35):
like this. It's like an oldlady, but in Spanish is like
this. Right? So it's like thiswoman to this woman she's
talking about know it to theother side. If you respect
myself if you respect mycriteria, American business
speak well about myself. Again,if I have to, I have been
(24:57):
working with Tanya for so longas she's so Hold on what she was
doing writing self, Tanya thislady because she's like, I
haven't heard a lot of man, Ihave to say, talking or speaking
good about women, in particular,how many women to recognize the
work we're doing? Again, it'snot like we need that what is
(25:19):
like an example? Right? to gofurther to what do we need to do
what you may do this, you canrecognize your colleagues.
Tania Escobar (25:29):
Exactly.
Umesh Lakshman (25:30):
Yeah, indeed, completely agree. And I loved
what you just said, it doesn'teven sponsoring a woman doesn't
have to be about sponsoring bigthings. It's about you and
sponsoring the conversation.
It's like creating safe spacesponsoring that safe space. And
creating that safe space is asimportant if not more important,
in something tangible thateverybody can do completely
(25:50):
agree on that. Sorry, Tanya, didyou have something?
Tania Escobar (25:57):
No, I'm good. I'm agreeing.
Umesh Lakshman (25:59):
I'm not okay.
Sorry. Um, we talked about thisin general about bad the
stereotype. Right, and how womenare put into stereotypes. And we
also talked about how it'salmost sometimes gender neutral.
And you can say, for mostimmigrants, right, you can we
(26:21):
tend to put people in boxes,right? In your journey, I'm sure
you were put in multiple boxesthat you've had to break out of.
Right? How did you break out ofthem? If there's some things
that you kind of learned thatyou can share with the audience?
That's one and two, what aresome of those horror stories?
(26:44):
Right? What were some of thosestruggles that you really had to
fight to make happen? But whatwere the heavy lifts?
Claudia Santamaria (26:53):
Yeah, well, above the stereotypes, I think a
lot of strong woman a becauseTonya mentioned, we don't have
the same temper. All of us, Ihave to build my temper because
of my career. Because of theposition I have had in so many
companies. I again, I need to beclear, I need to be direct, I
need to be fair. And so thatexample, my character aside the
(27:14):
way I am now. But sometimes it'sdifficult because men may say if
a man is fair and direct, he's aleader, right? If our woman is
fair, as direct, she'shysterical. Right? So it's a
little bit different. It's alittle bit complicated to say,
I'm not hysterical. I'm justsaying what I have to say at
what I need to say, right? Butif we have that kind of a
(27:37):
stereotype that, oh, my god,she's again, she has to he has
she has sort of a temper. She'smaybe not married, because who
wants to marry that girl likethat? Right. I have heard that
comments a lot. And my marriagetwice. So even my temper, I have
been married twice. So that'snot the issue. Right? I mean,
the issue is the way the menexpress themselves about a woman
(28:01):
when she's strong, right? So Ihave to deal with that. I'm very
corporate as well, I'm very kindof serious when I perform my
job, because I have learned thatpeople, especially with the
lawyer, they think because youare friendly, or because you are
close, they can have someadvantages, right? Or in the
(28:23):
other side, I went to Cisco Livein Cancun, like four years ago,
and I was dancing with mycolleagues, because that's what
you do at Cisco Live, you'remore mature, so dance and get
married, etc. When I returned toMexico, the first comment that I
received, it was Friday, CiscoLive ends on Friday and went on
(28:43):
Monday to the to the office, andI received a comment from a man.
So cloudy, I saw you dancingthere at Cisco Live here. And I
was like, Yes, what is wrongwith them? Because you're the
lawyer, your circle producer,I'm serious. But I'm human. And
I like to party as well. Right?
And that's it. I mean, but thosekinds of stereotypes that you
need to be lawyer all the timeor that you're hysterical that
(29:06):
you're aggressive because you'rethere naked, said that and said
that I I don't like to justifymyself. I don't have to. I'm the
way I am. And that's it. Right?
So I don't have to apologize. Idon't want to say no, I'm
dancing because I like to knowanalyzing because I want you to
answer right so but so manytimes we are compelled to
(29:28):
provide explanations because theway we are of the way please be
we haev it said that it saidthat up. So it has been a tough
years. I have to say because Ihave learned to do that not to
justify myself not to explainthe way I am not to apologize
because I had something notbecause etc. So it has been
(29:52):
tough. But I have learned I haveto say I have them as teachers
ever men. I have learned a lotof them. Because they are very
pragmatic, they are verypractical. They don't take
anything personnel on, or atleast they fake. They don't take
it personal. But they didn'ttake it personal, right? They
don't know like, Am I going tosay this in the staff meeting?
(30:15):
But now they go out and speak.
And believe me, I have sir,heard so many crazy ideas for
putting in a friendly way. And Isaid, How did he said that in a
meeting, right? Because if I saysomething like that everybody
else would be laughing about me.
But because a man said that itwas like funny, it said that it
(30:37):
said there. So I decided to beboth to take a step. And say, if
I have to say something, I'm notgoing to question myself 100
times it's correct. And I'mgoing to say good in a very good
way is that politicalcorrectness, etc, etc? No, I'm
going to say what I thinking.
And that's it. Right. But I havelearned a lot from him. I have
to say that.
Tania Escobar (31:01):
I think what's powerful about what you just
said, Well, yes, it's peoplehave, it's important to
recognize that folks do gothrough that cycle of thinking
where my social capital may notallow me to say something that
another like a male could write.
And so when people are formingperceptions about, you know,
(31:24):
people on their team and whocontributes, especially when
it's, you have not a diverseteam, and there's, you know, a
woman who may feel like they'rerepresenting all of womankind in
your meeting, it's important forleaders to recognize that if
they don't say something, therecould be that underlying current
(31:45):
that maybe they feel like ifthey do, it's too much on the
line for them. Right. So thenit's on the onus of leaders and
your teammates to reach out tothat person to understand their
perspective on what happened inthe meeting, or what happens,
you know, in the day to day,because just because someone
doesn't say something doesn'tmean that they are thinking of,
(32:08):
you know, a great solution, or,you know, they have a separate
opinion of something. But thedynamics of the team, and the
environment may not allow forthem to do that.
Umesh Lakshman (32:21):
Yeah, but I totally agree,
Tania Escobar (32:22):
circling back to your leadership within women of
Cisco. Right? And,
Umesh Lakshman (32:28):
um,
Tania Escobar (32:29):
you know, one of the things that we've
discovered, you know, throughMSI is that maybe sometimes
we've men feel like they may nothave a place within women of
Cisco, or so maybe you couldtalk a little bit about that.
What's your perspective on that?
Because I think I'm a fivestrives to message that we
cannot change the culture.
(32:50):
Without men, we cannot we haveto have everyone involved on
effort. So the role of men insupporting women of Cisco, how
do you see that?
Claudia Santamaria (33:02):
You have a great question, Danny, actually,
because that is so true. We havereceived so many comments about
men saying, I don't feel like Ipertained to women of Cisco,
because you're so women focused,right. But that that is true.
And it's not true. It's true,because we are devoted to
develop women. Right. So we it'sa different perspective. At the
(33:25):
same time, as you mentioned, weneed men to do that we need men
to change the quarter division,etc. So we have so like, six men
played a role into women, whichis from Mexico, and they
participate in every singleevent we have, and they always
speak, they always say theyopinion and said I love them. I
(33:48):
always always think to them,too, for attending, right? But
we need to have more womeninvolved in this. And even I'm
not trying to change the visionof women of Cisco, because I'm
not, but we're trying to be moreinclusive with them, actually,
because that's a mistake wesometimes fall into right? We
(34:10):
are just women. And this is theclub of women and there is no
Matt No, that is not right.
Because we need men to learnfrom them as well. They need to
learn from us they need to havethis interaction with women as
well. So they can know how do wethink it's difficult, I know but
maybe they have like a hint ofhow do we think how do we
(34:31):
interact, how they can help thischange right of quarter of this
vision etc, etc. So, forexample, when we have speakers
we have these, she he speaksevery cue. So we have men and
women. So what we are trying todo is not only a touching the
(34:53):
issues about exclusively women,what about your emotional
religions, your skills. A topicsare interesting for everybody,
not only for women, but we arestill we have things to do here.
You're right.
Tania Escobar (35:11):
Right. I love that. It's the intention as with
other arrows and networks,right, the intention is to
uplift and provide support foryour community, in this case,
women, right. But that doesn'tmean that allies and folks who
want to support can't be a partof that conversation, as you
said and learn it's it's a, it'sa gift to be able to get those
(35:33):
insights and and have thatproximity with those
communities. So that's great.
Umesh Lakshman (35:39):
So would you to to the six men who are part of
women at Cisco, what are theydoing differently, that you see
is helping the overall cause?
And this just means like,spitballing question, right?
Because I'm very curious. Right,is I'll give you my context to
one story, is I went towatermark conference three years
(36:04):
ago, I was one of three men inaudience of 10,000. Oh, my God,
was the was the moment, right islike, I remember a colleague of
mine, she came to me and she waslike, she literally grabbed me,
I was on the side like this withthe phone, waiting for the sea
(36:25):
of women to walk out. And I waslike, I'm gonna wait for
everybody to leave before Iwork. Right. And she already
came, she grabbed me by thehand, she put her hand on my
hand, and she just dragged meShe's like, now I know how I
feel. Yeah, exactly. That'slike, and I'm saying that story,
because it's, it felt verydifferent, right? I was a
(36:47):
confident individual in general.
But all of that just completelyshattered, right? When I walked
into that conference, and resistthe day. But I'm trying to give
that context, because those sixmen potentially are doing
something different, right?
They're going through somethingdifferent, but they're also
trying to create more of them.
(37:08):
What are they doing that isdifferent?
Claudia Santamaria (37:11):
I think the most important thing is that
they pertain to women of Cisco,they don't care about what other
men may think, because they arepart of women of Cisco, right?
They are breaking thestereotypes now that I'm part of
women of Cisco, and I'm going toall events and open to hear what
this group has to say, right?
I'm open to learn from women. Soand I decide to participate. And
(37:35):
as mentioned, in many of ourevents, they participate, they
actively participate in this. Sothey have a voice as well. And
they say, for example, let's saythey will also do executive
breakfast, that is important,because then we are like a nine
women and one man and executive,right? So and they participate.
(37:57):
And they love that because theyare not afraid to be the only
man in the room for a change,right? So I think what they are
different is to speak aboutwomen of Cisco as well. They are
our sponsors, some how they oursponsors, right? Because they
are saying they are doing these,they have these initiatives, and
(38:18):
want to participate, etc, etc.
And we have also leaders wehave, for example, Mark Trent,
who is the director of latamengineering, so he's a very,
very good sponsor, very openabout the talking women of
Cisco, etc, etc. So I think themost important thing I get is
that they are open to pertain tothis.
Umesh Lakshman (38:41):
Then Then shameless plug for max strength
as he gets it. Like I've had,I've had a handful of
conversations, he totally getsit. Yeah, totally understand.
And and to summarize what hejust said, what the gentlemen
are doing is they participate.
They learn, they're open tolearning. They support at every
step, and they're okay being theonly man in the room. So I'm
(39:04):
trying to like summarize thateverybody gets it. And we put it
in the slides here, too. Butthat is very important that if
you're trying to be a male, whois an ally, to changing the
domain and the ecosystem, thosefour are so well put. So
Claudia, thank you so much forputting that together. That's
very nicely said. So the lastquestion, like Drum roll, right,
(39:26):
is, it's a question we're askingeverybody who comes in on the
show, which is what are thethree tangible actionable things
that you would like to suggestto anyone who's listening? Who
can make them a better ally, fordiversity and inclusion?
Claudia Santamaria (39:48):
I think the first one is to be truly
genuine. A because again, as wementioned, as we talk about
this, there's a lot of men thatare speaking About the inclusion
and diversity and genderequality, but they are not doing
anything out. So begin if youare not convinced or what you're
(40:09):
saying, stay like raw, becauseotherwise it's confusing for us
as women to say he's supportingor not because he's saying that
these work his team, there's nowomen at all. He doesn't like
women to speak, etc, etc. Soit's a little bit confusing
those signups second, berespectful. I think that's it's
(40:32):
very important. It's not onlyfor women, but for everybody
else. But respect, I think it'svery important Valley, right,
have an honest culture andinclusive and, and an inclusive
culture, to the respect torespect to about the women, what
they are saying, the way theyexpressing themselves, the way
they are the way they look, aswell, right. For the first one,
(40:57):
I think baseball sort of awoman, again, you don't need to
promote her career or to giveher a race, not be the sponsor,
pick one or two, and talk goodthings about her. If you are
convinced that she's doing agood job, that he has a good she
has a good personality that shehas added value. Now, so be a
(41:21):
sponsor of her or two or threeor whatever you want, but and
demonstrate that you are a trueally of a woman. At least one.
Umesh Lakshman (41:32):
Yeah, I love that. ads, it's demonstrate
you're an actual ally, at leastthrough one action. Right? is
there's you just nailed it,which is there's so many people
saying show that what you'resaying makes perfect sense
because you believe in itthrough some sort of action.
(41:53):
Three things I saw there wasone, be genuine, to be
respectful. Three be a sponsorat any level, right? It doesn't
have to be a big thing. Even ifit's a small thing, even if it's
you connecting a woman withsomebody else within or outside
the organization. That is stilla sponsorship moment that you
(42:13):
can do.
Claudia Santamaria (42:15):
You perfectly said exactly. That
same. Yeah.
Umesh Lakshman (42:19):
Awesome.
Perfect. So Claudia again. Thankyou so much. For my phenomenal
experience again, having you onthis. And thank you for
supporting us to write this is awhole new initiative for men for
inclusion. And we love havingyou on the show. And we're
looking forward to like maybebetter interlock between boomers
as grown men for inclusion aswell as we go into net new
(42:40):
horizons
Claudia Santamaria (42:44):
thanks to you mentioned, thank you for the
opportunity and thanks to minefor inclusion for supporting us
as women I think we're startingvery, very good opportunity to
work together and to create amore changes a lot of new stuff.
Hello everyone, my name is Umesh Lakshman, the
host and creator of breakingboundaries. Before we begin, I
wanted to take a moment. Andthank you for choosing to tune
in to this program, either onYouTube, Spotify, or Apple
podcasts. With the plethora ofoptions out there, my goal is to
(00:29):
make this valuable, insightfuland thought provoking use of
your time. You can find moreinformation about both me and
the program at dub dub dub dubbreaking boundaries online.com.
If you know anyone who wouldlike to be part of this program,
or if you'd like to be featuredon this podcast, please drop me
(00:49):
an email to Amish, u m. e. s. h,at breaking boundaries
online.com. The goal of breakingboundaries as a platform is to
interview everyday heroes toshare their learnings, their
struggles, and the wins in thesearch for a more inclusive and
(01:10):
diverse landscape. both withinand outside of the workplace.
Each of them have transcendedstereotypes and have created
something not only forthemselves, but also for others.
So without further ado, welcometo breaking boundaries.
(01:34):
Again, thank you for joining us,Claudia. So for those of you who
are listening, Claudia, SantaMaria is going to be the guest
for the second episode ofbreaking boundaries. And a
little bit about Claudia.
Claudia is the lawyer in chargeof Cisco, Mexico for the past
seven years. She's the currentleader of women at Cisco, Mexico
and community impact at Mexico.
(01:58):
On a personal note, she is thewife, she's a housewife, and the
mother to two beautiful twins,three and a half years old. So
and she does it all with abeautiful smile. So I have we
applaud her for being able tolike keep everything together
and still doing all of thiswork. So thank you for joining
us on the show today. But yeah,
Unknown (02:18):
thanks to you. Thanks, Dan.
Umesh Lakshman (02:21):
And the co host today again is nobody needs an
introduction, Tonya Escobar, shedid the co host role for the
prior recording as well. She isthe global lead for men for
inclusion. And with that said,kind of going to start it off.
Right. So Claudia, we'd love toknow your journey right at a
(02:43):
very high level where it allstarted for you. I know you've
done a lot of work on women aCisco you're done, you've been
in a domain, which is also alittle bit on the masculine side
of the house. Right as a lawyer.
So it'll be great to kind oflike just get where did that all
start? what triggered you toeven get into legal? Right, some
(03:03):
of the history growing up, andthen we can maybe dovetail into
different aspects.
Claudia Santamaria (03:11):
Sure, thanks so much. Well, I my father, he
was in the army, actually, hewas a very strict guy very,
according to the rules and whatneeds to be done, right. So I
grew up with that image in mymind. So I decided to be a
lawyer because of that, becauseI love justice. I love to do the
right thing almost all the time.
At this point of my life. It'salmost all the time. But I enjoy
(03:33):
a lot of that. So I decided tobe a lawyer to get justice for
everybody for the persons thatcannot have done justice. Then
when I started my career, Idecided that corporate law was
much more like myself know thecriminal one because it's very
hard, especially in Mexico. So Idecided to follow this corporate
(03:55):
path. And as you mentioned, as alawyer, it's a masculine world,
actually. Still now there's alot of women lawyers, but until
now it's more masculine. So mycareer career life has been a
true telecommunications, which Ilove. And I have been working in
that since a long time ago andnot going to say my age. I'd
(04:18):
have like, more space andworking with the with the
logistics industry, which Ididn't like I have to say
because if a telecommunicationstelecommunications is masculine,
logistics you cannot imagine. Imean, there were only two
director women. And it was very,very hard because all the
(04:41):
customers, all their providers,they were men, I'm not
complaining I love men for sure.
But it's a very, very hard wordactually because they treat you
sometimes like with no respect.
They do not respect youropinion. They think you are
Sometimes, like a piece of meat,I have to recognize that that I
(05:02):
felt that way so many times atthat a role. So I decided to
leave because I didn't like thatat all. So when I joined Cisco,
it was the first time in myprofessional life that I
discover a company that trulyrespect and a truly incentive
all these values aboutinclusion, about diversity
(05:26):
about, for example, women ofCisco, et cetera, et cetera. So
I love that because it was sonew for me, right? To be part of
this community, a, even when Ihave some issues when I started
a Cisco, and I want to sharethis with you. Because when I
was in the interviews to joinCisco, I had, I received a
specific comment from one of myinterviewers, now it's my
(05:52):
friend, he's a very close friendof mine, but at that time, we
didn't know each other. I hetold me, you know, you don't
need to be concerned about ifyou're going to join Cisco or
not, because he's comparingagainst a man, you are going to
take the role. And I say like,why, right? I mean, if we
already equal conditions, and hetold me because you're a woman,
(06:12):
and Cisco is looking to increasea woman a quotation, so I was
I'm very expressive with myface. And I was like, Really? I
was so upset because of thatcomment. He told me Yes. Because
you look, very Dude, you arevery tall, you are pretty. So
you, you have some that thosekinds of advantage. I was legit
(06:34):
cannot believe I was like, Oh,good to know. However, I'm
positive. I'm sure that if Iwant to join Cisco, it's because
of my professional skills, notbecause I'm tall, or about a
woman or I pretty or wherever,right? He was very ashamed at
that time. He was like, No, no,please don't misunderstand
(06:54):
these, etc, etc. What he said.
So I decided to do this in apositive way. Because I like to
be sure about myself and aboutwho am I. So I decided that if I
was picked for this role, it wasonly because of my professional
(07:15):
skills. And I still at thispoint seven years later, I think
that was the right, a, apositive feeling I have at that
time.
Umesh Lakshman (07:26):
So I have a follow up question there. And
and it's not a question but moreof a common to everybody's
listening. So when you and Ispoke last week, Claudia, you
mentioned this very clearly, andI'm looking at my notes. You
said I don't want to be hard,because I'm a woman who is tall
and pretty. And I don't want tobe judged for stereotypes. And I
(07:46):
thought that was very powerful.
The other thing I did, youimmediately followed that up
with, I want to be hired becauseof my professional skills. And
because I'm intelligent, I'mpowerful, and I'm a leader.
Right? And both very strongstatements. How much of that one
incident, right, really pivotedthe way you thought about a lot
(08:08):
of other things down the road.
Claudia Santamaria (08:13):
It'd be a lot, actually, because I felt
the necessity to prove at thattime that I was hired because of
that what you mentioned, becauseI was on board for because I
know to do my job very well,because I'm sure that I
performed my role in a very goodway because that's why I'm still
here. And I have the respect ofthe directors, I work with them.
(08:33):
My internal customers, externalcustomers, I have very good
relations internally and withour customers with the law, a
customer lawyers. So for me, itwas like a change my mind about
Okay, maybe I haven't receivedthat comment that directly
before. But it's always there,right? Because your toe because
you think your previous saidthat I got more advantage. And
(08:55):
that is not true. I let me tellyou that I have never used my
weight or my height or whatever,to obtain something never in my
life because I always preferthis compliment. Like you're
intelligent, instead of you'repretty to be just as intelligent
(09:15):
as praying, right? Because thatlast forever. So that was yes,
that helped me a lot tounderstand where I was, and how
I wanted to other people andespecially other women to be
treated like right to berespected and to have a place in
the company in their own areas,etc. Because of their skills,
(09:38):
not because of their looks.
Tania Escobar (09:43):
can ask a follow up question. You mentioned that.
Now you're you have a goodrelationship with this person.
Right and you're now at thatpoint of friendship. But I know
when I've had experienceshearing comments like that does
couple things. It one fuels thefire, like you said, makes you
(10:03):
want to prove, you know, yourskills and competency, which can
be a good thing. But on theother hand, it also can build a
wall between you and the person.
Right? So how did how did thatperson who said that comment,
make things right? Or show, youknow, a growth and a learning so
that you could get to the placeof friendship, you know, and
(10:23):
being amicable with each other?
Because sometimes people getcaught into that mistake. And
then Okay, well,
Claudia Santamaria (10:32):
actually, she's very mature again, when
after I was hired, we have aninformal lunch of the director
of staff in Mexico, like two orthree months later, after I was
hired. I he told me I'mcongratulations that you're
here. And I want to borrow yourswith you. Because I saw your
face, I saw the way you lookedat me and they and the
(10:55):
interview, and they were lookingat me like, I cannot believe
you're saying that. Right. So Iwas very ashamed of what I said
to you. Because I know you havea lot of skills, professional
skills, etc, etc. And I have tosay, Yes, you were so out of
line. Somehow I was so surprisedbecause of your argument.
Because as I mentioned to mesh,I'm very open, I'm very direct.
(11:17):
Maybe they can sometimes likeaggressive. I'm not what I want
to say what I want to say,right? If I need to be fair, I'm
fair. And that's I'm apologizingbecause I'm fearing, or because
I said something that was neededto be said. So I said to him,
yes, you were out of line. I wasso surprised because of your
comment. But I'm glad that youapologize. So we can be friends
(11:42):
now. Then we started to worktogether in a lot of a purple
prayers. I told me once Irespect you so much, because you
are very fair, because you knowhow to communicate yourself
because you know what you'redoing, right? Because we close a
very important deal. So when Igained his respect, I was like,
(12:02):
Yes, I know it, because that'swhy I'm here right now. Because
if I were worried,
Tania Escobar (12:08):
yeah. But the point of acknowledgment is so
important, right? You cannotbuild the bridge to like you
said that respect or being ableto collaborate together without
that honoring what happened. SoI'm very glad to hear that. You
were honest about that. And he,he accept, you know, he accepted
that as learning and a teachingmoment. So yeah,
Unknown (12:31):
and you're right, done.
And just because I will neverrespect somebody that doesn't
respect me. I need to feel therespect of the other party. To
respect him, I will never expectsomebody that looks at me like a
piece of meat, right? I wouldnever would have that a
connection.
Umesh Lakshman (12:51):
I one quick comment I want to take and maybe
make it for everybody who'slistening is it is okay to call
out something that is happeningthat is wrong, as long as it is
respectful. And I think that'skind of what you're highlighting
here is you don't know what youdon't know. So sometimes people
don't know the mistakes they'remaking till somebody actually
(13:14):
calls shit out. Right? That'sthe easiest way to say it.
Everybody on this call has madea mistake that we didn't know we
were making to somebody calledit so it's it's it's something
especially in when it comes todiversity and inclusion. I'm I
love the fact that the story isabout somebody making a mistake,
(13:36):
or acknowledging a mistake, butalso alongside you calling out
the mistake. All three thingsneed to happen for it to work. I
love that one of the kids thatalso screaming at the same.
Unknown (13:49):
Sorry.
Umesh Lakshman (13:50):
No, it's completely fine. This is 2020
This is exactly how it'ssupposed to be. It's a good
plugin for babble labs,integration, right to remove all
the background noise.
Unknown (14:02):
Yep, can't wait for that. Yeah.
Umesh Lakshman (14:05):
Cool. Awesome.
I'm actually gonna like if youdon't mind today, I'm going to
take the next question here,which is the you talked about?
Okay, that was a very definingmoment. And there was also
another external factor. Wetalked about where you came
into, you came into Cisco, youcame in, in into a domain where
you saw the need for a women ofCisco kind of competence to
(14:25):
exist in Latin America andliterally spearheaded that and
started it. So can you give usmore around what started all of
that for you?
Claudia Santamaria (14:38):
Yeah, well, it's more likely women. In
Mexico. There was also witnessesfrom Mexico and I, I joined
because I love to support otherwomen. And as mentioned to you,
in order to support somebodyelse, and especially a man
generally to like her do judoneed to be her friend. You just
need to be a woman as well andto understand our position
(15:00):
Right, where are we in here inthis communication work, so I
decided to join because I liketo be part of that community.
And then when they currentlythere at that time, left to live
with an office full time, I wasinvited to take this role as the
leader of women of Cisco,Mexico. And I was thrilled about
it, because there are so muchthings to do. You never stop to
(15:24):
learn and to create and toinnovate, how many activities or
how many things to involve otherwomen and also men, right? So I
decided to have a twist here toimplement a new activities like
having this executive breakfastwith our executives, men and
(15:44):
women, and to have like a smallamount of invited women in order
to provide them this visibility,this honest chat, right? How our
executives, look at the women ofCisco, not only because we are
like this, hi, they are so nice.
They are meeting every threemonths. And that's great. Oh,
because we wanted to be taketaken serious. I mean, we want
(16:08):
to have sponsors, we want tohave our executive support. We
want them to be actuallyinvolved not only talking but
doing right, to have a more, forexample, women involved with
them to have this executiveshallowing. This sponsoring and
say there are so manyinitiatives, real initiatives to
(16:28):
have a deliverable for ourmembers to have for them, again,
something that they say, I lovethis, I liked it, I want to
embrace these, I want more ofthese. How can I be seen, we
launched a program this pastmonth, and it's about a growing
yourself, not onlyprofessionally, but a person on
(16:49):
the right, emotionalintelligence, you rematch your
brand, how do you see yourself?
How do you sell yourself insidethe company? how other people
looks at you? Right? Becausesometimes our image what the
people look so much different toyourself. So we are trying to
(17:10):
work on that. Because I thinkthat it's very important that
you have conscious of yourself.
Umesh Lakshman (17:20):
Sorry, as I was getting out of mute there and
trying to figure out my ownWebEx for today. So there's,
there was one comment he madewhen we spoke, which was around
women in executive roles inLatin America in itself, right?
was very minimum when you cameinto the ecosystem. Right? And
when you join Cisco, how muchhas the landscape changed?
Claudia Santamaria (17:44):
I think it has changed, not that much. But
it has changed for sure. We haveso much more a women leaders,
and they are very involved aswell, a about growing other
women. So I'm very proud ofthat. Because that has changed.
And maybe not as fast as it may,should be. Right. So I think for
(18:08):
all of the women at Lata theysee like an opportunity, right?
Because when I join Cisco, Ithink the opportunity, these
were like this, and now we'relike like this. So it's great.
Right?
Umesh Lakshman (18:21):
Yeah. The when you're talking about opportunity
in general, and access toleadership, one thing you
mentioned just now is to go fromtalking about it to doing
something about it. And that'sliterally where kind of meant
for inclusion fits a lot, rightis we are trying to take and
(18:43):
then to quote Tanya here, we'retrying to take the dominant
group, in this case, men, right?
Take a new angle at what needsto be actually balanced. And
give them a toolkit to actuallydrive better inclusive culture,
drive more diversity on a day today basis at all levels. Right.
The common challenge we see is,leaders get it. Like top line
(19:07):
leaders get it? Right. They saydiversity is important.
Inclusion is important. This ispolicy. Frontline leaders don't
know what to do with that.
They're like, Okay, I'm greatthat my boss is telling me this.
I agree. But I don't know how toput it to work. Right. So what
(19:31):
are some of the things thatyou've seen over the last? I
mean, like you've been in Cisconow seven years. So over the
last seven years, leaders thatdo something well, right when it
comes to changing the diversitystory in general.
Unknown (19:44):
Yes, as mentioned to your mesh, the last time we
spoke, I think a and youmentioned that already. You need
to be honest and very genuineabout this. Not only speaking
with your team and with a womenon your team, you are like
treating them difference, right?
You need to be authentic, youneed to be aligned with what
you're saying and what you'redoing. So for me, is not doing
(20:06):
big stuff, there is no like, I'mgoing to have you like, and I
had to give you a raise and tohave you promoted. No, if you do
not deserve it, you have todeserve it as the rest of the
employees, right. But, forexample, I've learned something
very common. They win. And ithappens to me, it still happens
(20:27):
to me. And a lot of women. Whenyou're talking somebody,
especially a man, they interruptthis is like, they saw many
times they are taking our ideaaway, right? Yeah, yeah, kill
that. But as you mentioned,blah, blah, blah, blah. And
people think that their idea,right. So for me, that is not
respecting myself or any otherperson. So it's a very small
(20:50):
change. Let the other peopletalk. And that's it. And
especially as a woman is notlike we need help, right? Please
don't misunderstand. As a woman,we don't need help, or that
somebody else clowder pcsb?
Because you haven't No, I don'tneed that. I can talk by myself,
I don't need any help to dothat. But please respect when
(21:12):
I'm speaking, right? Becausethere's a lot of that there is
more you can be you can thinkthat experience more No, it's
very important detail, torespect everybody else, right?
To eat their own place to everysingle woman or at a meeting,
etc, etc. And not to repeat thiskind of behaviors. Right? They,
(21:32):
because it happens a lot. I haveseen that a lot. So for me, it's
only not big changes for smallones as well. Right?
Umesh Lakshman (21:41):
Yep. Tony did have a question.
Tania Escobar (21:44):
No, but I wanted to add a comment to that,
because I think I experiencedthat as well, I think it is a
common issue. And I thinkleaders and people, whether
you're a manager or not have tomake space for each other.
Right? And allow folks becausenot everybody will have the same
temperament as well. Not a womanwill feel comfortable speaking
(22:08):
out in an assertive way, andthat's okay. But allowing that
space and for folks to read theenergy of the room. So that when
you see that how, you know,happening where people aren't
being respected or, you know,interrupted, that you take a
step to divert that. And to putfocus back on the person who is
(22:31):
speaking, I think that's, it's asimple thing to do hard to
practice. And so building thatmuscle around it is is key.
Umesh Lakshman (22:42):
Yeah. And to add to that, I'll give you the
outside in kind of a view,right, which is, as a male
leader at a table. So many timesI've seen the same thing, right?
female leader says something.
It's brushed aside, and anothermale leader says the same thing
in different words, and it'slike, oh, that is a great idea.
(23:03):
And it took a while for me toeven figure out what to do.
Right? When I was little, I justwas like, okay, that's kind of
odd. And everybody brushes isoff and walks away right into
the sunset. What recently morerecently I've started doing is
(23:23):
like, that's exactly what shesaid. literally saying that,
right? It's awkward. But it is avery important thing to give
credit where it's due. And ifyou don't you you're not. It's
like silence is complicit.
(23:45):
Right, it's how I see it right,as I like, you can just brush it
aside. So the more of us,whoever listens to this that
goes in and sees something likethis happening. Unfortunately,
you will still continue to seeit in some way, shape, or form
is just don't take the creditdon't highlight the problem. But
you can do all of that in onesentence by saying that is
(24:06):
exactly what she said. Right?
And give credit back to the ladyin the room. So I just want to
make that comment quickly aswell.
Claudia Santamaria (24:14):
No, and I fully agree with you because
that's another important step tomesh to, to recognize whoever is
speaking whoever is talking andalso to be like a sponsor of
some other women because forexample, here in Mexico we have
like this, but Europe give a wayto refer to some women right
(24:35):
like this. It's like an oldlady, but in Spanish is like
this. Right? So it's like thiswoman to this woman she's
talking about know it to theother side. If you respect
myself if you respect mycriteria, American business
speak well about myself. Again,if I have to, I have been
(24:57):
working with Tanya for so longas she's so Hold on what she was
doing writing self, Tanya thislady because she's like, I
haven't heard a lot of man, Ihave to say, talking or speaking
good about women, in particular,how many women to recognize the
work we're doing? Again, it'snot like we need that what is
(25:19):
like an example? Right? to gofurther to what do we need to do
what you may do this, you canrecognize your colleagues.
Tania Escobar (25:29):
Exactly.
Umesh Lakshman (25:30):
Yeah, indeed, completely agree. And I loved
what you just said, it doesn'teven sponsoring a woman doesn't
have to be about sponsoring bigthings. It's about you and
sponsoring the conversation.
It's like creating safe spacesponsoring that safe space. And
creating that safe space is asimportant if not more important,
in something tangible thateverybody can do completely
(25:50):
agree on that. Sorry, Tanya, didyou have something?
Tania Escobar (25:57):
No, I'm good. I'm agreeing.
Umesh Lakshman (25:59):
I'm not okay.
Sorry. Um, we talked about thisin general about bad the
stereotype. Right, and how womenare put into stereotypes. And we
also talked about how it'salmost sometimes gender neutral.
And you can say, for mostimmigrants, right, you can we
(26:21):
tend to put people in boxes,right? In your journey, I'm sure
you were put in multiple boxesthat you've had to break out of.
Right? How did you break out ofthem? If there's some things
that you kind of learned thatyou can share with the audience?
That's one and two, what aresome of those horror stories?
(26:44):
Right? What were some of thosestruggles that you really had to
fight to make happen? But whatwere the heavy lifts?
Claudia Santamaria (26:53):
Yeah, well, above the stereotypes, I think a
lot of strong woman a becauseTonya mentioned, we don't have
the same temper. All of us, Ihave to build my temper because
of my career. Because of theposition I have had in so many
companies. I again, I need to beclear, I need to be direct, I
need to be fair. And so thatexample, my character aside the
(27:14):
way I am now. But sometimes it'sdifficult because men may say if
a man is fair and direct, he's aleader, right? If our woman is
fair, as direct, she'shysterical. Right? So it's a
little bit different. It's alittle bit complicated to say,
I'm not hysterical. I'm justsaying what I have to say at
what I need to say, right? Butif we have that kind of a
(27:37):
stereotype that, oh, my god,she's again, she has to he has
she has sort of a temper. She'smaybe not married, because who
wants to marry that girl likethat? Right. I have heard that
comments a lot. And my marriagetwice. So even my temper, I have
been married twice. So that'snot the issue. Right? I mean,
the issue is the way the menexpress themselves about a woman
(28:01):
when she's strong, right? So Ihave to deal with that. I'm very
corporate as well, I'm very kindof serious when I perform my
job, because I have learned thatpeople, especially with the
lawyer, they think because youare friendly, or because you are
close, they can have someadvantages, right? Or in the
(28:23):
other side, I went to Cisco Livein Cancun, like four years ago,
and I was dancing with mycolleagues, because that's what
you do at Cisco Live, you'remore mature, so dance and get
married, etc. When I returned toMexico, the first comment that I
received, it was Friday, CiscoLive ends on Friday and went on
(28:43):
Monday to the to the office, andI received a comment from a man.
So cloudy, I saw you dancingthere at Cisco Live here. And I
was like, Yes, what is wrongwith them? Because you're the
lawyer, your circle producer,I'm serious. But I'm human. And
I like to party as well. Right?
And that's it. I mean, but thosekinds of stereotypes that you
need to be lawyer all the timeor that you're hysterical that
(29:06):
you're aggressive because you'rethere naked, said that and said
that I I don't like to justifymyself. I don't have to. I'm the
way I am. And that's it. Right?
So I don't have to apologize. Idon't want to say no, I'm
dancing because I like to knowanalyzing because I want you to
answer right so but so manytimes we are compelled to
(29:28):
provide explanations because theway we are of the way please be
we haev it said that it saidthat up. So it has been a tough
years. I have to say because Ihave learned to do that not to
justify myself not to explainthe way I am not to apologize
because I had something notbecause etc. So it has been
(29:52):
tough. But I have learned I haveto say I have them as teachers
ever men. I have learned a lotof them. Because they are very
pragmatic, they are verypractical. They don't take
anything personnel on, or atleast they fake. They don't take
it personal. But they didn'ttake it personal, right? They
don't know like, Am I going tosay this in the staff meeting?
(30:15):
But now they go out and speak.
And believe me, I have sir,heard so many crazy ideas for
putting in a friendly way. And Isaid, How did he said that in a
meeting, right? Because if I saysomething like that everybody
else would be laughing about me.
But because a man said that itwas like funny, it said that it
(30:37):
said there. So I decided to beboth to take a step. And say, if
I have to say something, I'm notgoing to question myself 100
times it's correct. And I'mgoing to say good in a very good
way is that politicalcorrectness, etc, etc? No, I'm
going to say what I thinking.
And that's it. Right. But I havelearned a lot from him. I have
to say that.
Tania Escobar (31:01):
I think what's powerful about what you just
said, Well, yes, it's peoplehave, it's important to
recognize that folks do gothrough that cycle of thinking
where my social capital may notallow me to say something that
another like a male could write.
And so when people are formingperceptions about, you know,
(31:24):
people on their team and whocontributes, especially when
it's, you have not a diverseteam, and there's, you know, a
woman who may feel like they'rerepresenting all of womankind in
your meeting, it's important forleaders to recognize that if
they don't say something, therecould be that underlying current
(31:45):
that maybe they feel like ifthey do, it's too much on the
line for them. Right. So thenit's on the onus of leaders and
your teammates to reach out tothat person to understand their
perspective on what happened inthe meeting, or what happens,
you know, in the day to day,because just because someone
doesn't say something doesn'tmean that they are thinking of,
(32:08):
you know, a great solution, or,you know, they have a separate
opinion of something. But thedynamics of the team, and the
environment may not allow forthem to do that.
Umesh Lakshman (32:21):
Yeah, but I totally agree,
Tania Escobar (32:22):
circling back to your leadership within women of
Cisco. Right? And,
Umesh Lakshman (32:28):
um,
Tania Escobar (32:29):
you know, one of the things that we've
discovered, you know, throughMSI is that maybe sometimes
we've men feel like they may nothave a place within women of
Cisco, or so maybe you couldtalk a little bit about that.
What's your perspective on that?
Because I think I'm a fivestrives to message that we
cannot change the culture.
(32:50):
Without men, we cannot we haveto have everyone involved on
effort. So the role of men insupporting women of Cisco, how
do you see that?
Claudia Santamaria (33:02):
You have a great question, Danny, actually,
because that is so true. We havereceived so many comments about
men saying, I don't feel like Ipertained to women of Cisco,
because you're so women focused,right. But that that is true.
And it's not true. It's true,because we are devoted to
develop women. Right. So we it'sa different perspective. At the
(33:25):
same time, as you mentioned, weneed men to do that we need men
to change the quarter division,etc. So we have so like, six men
played a role into women, whichis from Mexico, and they
participate in every singleevent we have, and they always
speak, they always say theyopinion and said I love them. I
(33:48):
always always think to them,too, for attending, right? But
we need to have more womeninvolved in this. And even I'm
not trying to change the visionof women of Cisco, because I'm
not, but we're trying to be moreinclusive with them, actually,
because that's a mistake wesometimes fall into right? We
(34:10):
are just women. And this is theclub of women and there is no
Matt No, that is not right.
Because we need men to learnfrom them as well. They need to
learn from us they need to havethis interaction with women as
well. So they can know how do wethink it's difficult, I know but
maybe they have like a hint ofhow do we think how do we
(34:31):
interact, how they can help thischange right of quarter of this
vision etc, etc. So, forexample, when we have speakers
we have these, she he speaksevery cue. So we have men and
women. So what we are trying todo is not only a touching the
(34:53):
issues about exclusively women,what about your emotional
religions, your skills. A topicsare interesting for everybody,
not only for women, but we arestill we have things to do here.
You're right.
Tania Escobar (35:11):
Right. I love that. It's the intention as with
other arrows and networks,right, the intention is to
uplift and provide support foryour community, in this case,
women, right. But that doesn'tmean that allies and folks who
want to support can't be a partof that conversation, as you
said and learn it's it's a, it'sa gift to be able to get those
(35:33):
insights and and have thatproximity with those
communities. So that's great.
Umesh Lakshman (35:39):
So would you to to the six men who are part of
women at Cisco, what are theydoing differently, that you see
is helping the overall cause?
And this just means like,spitballing question, right?
Because I'm very curious. Right,is I'll give you my context to
one story, is I went towatermark conference three years
(36:04):
ago, I was one of three men inaudience of 10,000. Oh, my God,
was the was the moment, right islike, I remember a colleague of
mine, she came to me and she waslike, she literally grabbed me,
I was on the side like this withthe phone, waiting for the sea
(36:25):
of women to walk out. And I waslike, I'm gonna wait for
everybody to leave before Iwork. Right. And she already
came, she grabbed me by thehand, she put her hand on my
hand, and she just dragged meShe's like, now I know how I
feel. Yeah, exactly. That'slike, and I'm saying that story,
because it's, it felt verydifferent, right? I was a
(36:47):
confident individual in general.
But all of that just completelyshattered, right? When I walked
into that conference, and resistthe day. But I'm trying to give
that context, because those sixmen potentially are doing
something different, right?
They're going through somethingdifferent, but they're also
trying to create more of them.
(37:08):
What are they doing that isdifferent?
Claudia Santamaria (37:11):
I think the most important thing is that
they pertain to women of Cisco,they don't care about what other
men may think, because they arepart of women of Cisco, right?
They are breaking thestereotypes now that I'm part of
women of Cisco, and I'm going toall events and open to hear what
this group has to say, right?
I'm open to learn from women. Soand I decide to participate. And
(37:35):
as mentioned, in many of ourevents, they participate, they
actively participate in this. Sothey have a voice as well. And
they say, for example, let's saythey will also do executive
breakfast, that is important,because then we are like a nine
women and one man and executive,right? So and they participate.
(37:57):
And they love that because theyare not afraid to be the only
man in the room for a change,right? So I think what they are
different is to speak aboutwomen of Cisco as well. They are
our sponsors, some how they oursponsors, right? Because they
are saying they are doing these,they have these initiatives, and
(38:18):
want to participate, etc, etc.
And we have also leaders wehave, for example, Mark Trent,
who is the director of latamengineering, so he's a very,
very good sponsor, very openabout the talking women of
Cisco, etc, etc. So I think themost important thing I get is
that they are open to pertain tothis.
Umesh Lakshman (38:41):
Then Then shameless plug for max strength
as he gets it. Like I've had,I've had a handful of
conversations, he totally getsit. Yeah, totally understand.
And and to summarize what hejust said, what the gentlemen
are doing is they participate.
They learn, they're open tolearning. They support at every
step, and they're okay being theonly man in the room. So I'm
(39:04):
trying to like summarize thateverybody gets it. And we put it
in the slides here, too. Butthat is very important that if
you're trying to be a male, whois an ally, to changing the
domain and the ecosystem, thosefour are so well put. So
Claudia, thank you so much forputting that together. That's
very nicely said. So the lastquestion, like Drum roll, right,
(39:26):
is, it's a question we're askingeverybody who comes in on the
show, which is what are thethree tangible actionable things
that you would like to suggestto anyone who's listening? Who
can make them a better ally, fordiversity and inclusion?
Claudia Santamaria (39:48):
I think the first one is to be truly
genuine. A because again, as wementioned, as we talk about
this, there's a lot of men thatare speaking About the inclusion
and diversity and genderequality, but they are not doing
anything out. So begin if youare not convinced or what you're
(40:09):
saying, stay like raw, becauseotherwise it's confusing for us
as women to say he's supportingor not because he's saying that
these work his team, there's nowomen at all. He doesn't like
women to speak, etc, etc. Soit's a little bit confusing
those signups second, berespectful. I think that's it's
(40:32):
very important. It's not onlyfor women, but for everybody
else. But respect, I think it'svery important Valley, right,
have an honest culture andinclusive and, and an inclusive
culture, to the respect torespect to about the women, what
they are saying, the way theyexpressing themselves, the way
they are the way they look, aswell, right. For the first one,
(40:57):
I think baseball sort of awoman, again, you don't need to
promote her career or to giveher a race, not be the sponsor,
pick one or two, and talk goodthings about her. If you are
convinced that she's doing agood job, that he has a good she
has a good personality that shehas added value. Now, so be a
(41:21):
sponsor of her or two or threeor whatever you want, but and
demonstrate that you are a trueally of a woman. At least one.
Umesh Lakshman (41:32):
Yeah, I love that. ads, it's demonstrate
you're an actual ally, at leastthrough one action. Right? is
there's you just nailed it,which is there's so many people
saying show that what you'resaying makes perfect sense
because you believe in itthrough some sort of action.
(41:53):
Three things I saw there wasone, be genuine, to be
respectful. Three be a sponsorat any level, right? It doesn't
have to be a big thing. Even ifit's a small thing, even if it's
you connecting a woman withsomebody else within or outside
the organization. That is stilla sponsorship moment that you
(42:13):
can do.
Claudia Santamaria (42:15):
You perfectly said exactly. That
same. Yeah.
Umesh Lakshman (42:19):
Awesome.
Perfect. So Claudia again. Thankyou so much. For my phenomenal
experience again, having you onthis. And thank you for
supporting us to write this is awhole new initiative for men for
inclusion. And we love havingyou on the show. And we're
looking forward to like maybebetter interlock between boomers
as grown men for inclusion aswell as we go into net new
(42:40):
horizons
Claudia Santamaria (42:44):
thanks to you mentioned, thank you for the
opportunity and thanks to minefor inclusion for supporting us
as women I think we're startingvery, very good opportunity to
work together and to create amore changes a lot of new stuff.
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