November 21, 2025 • 26 mins
A celebrated naturalist’s Maine hillside holds thousands of wild American chestnuts thriving across three generations, challenging the claim that the species cannot return without genetic engineering. We explore the history of blight, restoration strategies, climate shifts, and why evidence from the field matters.
• origins of the blight and early containment attempts
• limits of Chinese hybrid chestnuts in forest settings
• selective breeding for American traits with blight tolerance
• push for GE chestnuts and its one-gene promise
• documented natural resurgence on Bernd Heinrich’s land
• seed dispersal by birds and squirrels across miles
• published mapping, burr counts, and multi‑generation stands
• climate change moving the chestnut range north
• reports of wild chestnuts in gap openings across the Northeast
• missteps and credibility issues in GE field trials
• how to see the documentary and share chestnut sightings
Premieres December 4 at thewildamericanchestnut.org. “People can go there, sign up for the movie, and share your chestnut story.”
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to Breaking Green.
This is your host, Steve Taylor.
And on this episode, we'regetting into the holiday spirit.
Just in time for the holidays,Global Justice Ecology Project
is releasing a new documentary,The Wild American Chestnut.
Regular listeners will know thatthere has been an attempt to
(00:21):
genetically engineer thisspecies and release it into the
wild.
But this new documentarydemonstrates that there is a
natural comeback alreadyunderway in Western Maine.
On this episode of BreakingGreen, we will talk with Ann
Peterman, Executive Director ofGlobal Justice Ecology Project.
(00:43):
Ann Peterman, welcome toBreaking Green.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Thanks so much for having me on again, Steve.
SPEAKER_02 (00:50):
Well, it's our pleasure, and uh it's we're
we're going into the holidayseason, and I think we have
something very exciting to talkabout.
Global Justice Ecology Projectis producing a short-form
documentary, environmentalinvestigation on the wild
(01:10):
American chestnut and its uhapparent revival in western
Maine.
Could you tell us a little bitabout that?
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
That's right.
Yeah, we've been hearing for awhile the stories about this
man, Baron Heinrich, who is uhactually a pretty well-known
naturalist and a professoremeritus from the University of
Vermont, and that he has this,you know, very large number of
wild American chestnut treesgrowing on his land that are
(01:42):
healthy.
They don't have any um sign ofthe blight.
And so we we wanted to see thisfor ourselves.
We we've been hearing about it,and it just feels like this is
the kind of thing that we needright now, right?
We need some kind of positiveenergy that we can go into next
year with understanding that,you know, nature is resilient,
(02:04):
it's coming back, the ch thewild American chestnut's coming
back, you know, with the help ofuh, you know, Barrent planted
the first two and a few others,but the rest of the thousands,
literally thousands, on his landhave been planted by blue jays
and squirrels.
So it's it's really an amazingsuccess story for this tree that
was decimated by this introducedblight from Asia about 125 years
(02:28):
ago.
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
Wow.
So let's let's look at that alittle closer.
So the the in 1904 uh there wasa blight uh and that as well as
logging and and and otherpressures on the on the uh wild
American chestnut caused it tobe what many uh people have been
(02:51):
referring to as functionallyextinct, uh and that has led
some people to try to produce ahybrid by crossbreeding or and
actually back crossbreeding tofind more blight-resistant
strains.
And then also the controversialum uh proposal which uh Global
(03:14):
Justice Ecology Project and theStop GE Trees campaign has
vigorously opposed, which is tocreate uh a transgenic tree to
release into the wild.
So could you talk a little bitabout what has been going on
when it comes to uh approachesuh to revive the tree leading up
(03:38):
to this uh uh investigation andthis uh this great uh experience
on uh Dr.
Heinrich's uh uh land and seeingall these 100% natural
chestnuts.
SPEAKER_01 (03:52):
Sure.
Yeah, there's been quite anumber, pretty much since the
blight was discovered back inthe early part of the last
century, there have been effortsto figure out how to deal with
it, how to stop it fromspreading.
And, you know, that includedmassive clear-cut swaths.
They actually cut a couple ofmile uh wide swath through the
(04:13):
entire state of Pennsylvania,trying to stop the blight from
getting any further south, um,because it started in in uh
actually in the Bronx Zoo uh inNew York.
And anyway, there were a lot ofum, there have been a lot of
attempts.
One of the first attempts wasbreeding the American chestnut
(04:34):
with a Chinese chestnut, whichthe Chinese chestnuts are
naturally resistant to theblight, and it was an Asian
chestnut that was brought overthat brought the blight with it.
Um, classic uh, you know,corporate globalization or or
globalization, globalizing,moving plants around globally is
never a good idea because of allthe pests and pathogens that
(04:54):
come along with it.
But anyway, that's anotherstory.
Um, so we have the uh theattempts to hybridize the
American chestnut with theChinese chestnut, there have
been a lot of successes withthat, but it's not a forest
tree, okay?
It's good for orchards.
People are growing them here andthere um in orchards and
(05:14):
producing lots of chestnuts tosell, but you can't put those
trees back in the forest.
The even though they've got atree that's now 1516 American
chestnut and one-sixteenthChinese chestnut, it still has
the physical characteristics ofa Chinese chestnut.
So it's kind of short and squat,kind of like an orchard tree.
It doesn't do well, it doesn'tcompete well in the forest.
(05:38):
So that has not been a real goodrestoration tree as far as
bringing it back to the forests.
Um, then there have beenattempts, there's an
organization called the AmericanChestnut Cooperators Foundation,
which is in Virginia, that hasbeen finding surviving, large,
large surviving Americanchestnuts and that have some
level of blight resistance andbreeding them together for
(06:01):
decades, and they have what theybelieve are successfully
blight-resistant Americanchestnuts.
They still get the blight, butthey survive it.
They aren't killed by it.
Um, so that's a pretty excitingdevelopment.
And then what we're hearingabout more recently through our
work against the geneticallyengineered chestnut is people
coming forward and saying, hey,we have uh, you know, wild
(06:24):
American chestnuts growing by usand they seem to be doing really
well, which has given us thisidea that they are finding a way
to come back on their own.
You know, they are finding a wayto be blight resistant all on
their own, or to somehow survivethe blight.
And so that's why we went up toBaron Heinrich's land to see
(06:46):
this huge population, thousandsof American wild American
chestnuts that are growing andand growing very uh well and
very healthily.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
So it's also important to note that he didn't
plant all of these, that heplanted a few, and that and that
was w what, 40 years ago, 45years ago, and that they have
themselves beenself-propagating, and you now
have uh, you know, uh threegenerations of trees.
(07:17):
So um what was that like uhseeing those when we've been
told all these years, and it'salways been, you know, like like
top line up or bottom line upfront, uh, you know, chestnuts
can't survive on their own.
You know, they may sprout, butthey'll die off from the blight.
What was it like seeing thatwith your own eyes?
SPEAKER_01 (07:38):
It was it was amazing.
I mean, it was amazing to seethat.
Um so Barrent showed us thefirst two trees that he planted,
which are quite large.
I mean, as you mentioned,they're about 45 years old at
this point, and they're at least40 feet tall.
Um, the the diameter at breastheight, the DBH, is at least 24
inches.
(07:58):
I mean, they're quite largetrees, and they have not only
been producing lots and lots ofoffspring, lots and lots of
seedlings and saplings that aregrowing in the vicinity, and
even Barrett said they trackedthem with a bunch of university
students.
They tracked one at as far awayas a mile from these parent
trees.
(08:18):
But not only that, some of thesetrees that have not just been
planted by people, because heonly planted a few, that have
been planted by blue jays andsquirrels, have themselves been
growing up into mature trees.
And now some of them areproducing nuts, um, producing
firs and nuts.
And that is um that has beentruly incredible.
(08:41):
So those are now producingoffspring.
So we have the children of hisoriginal trees and the
grandchildren, if you will, ofthose original trees.
And talking to Bear, he said,yeah, I have no reason to think
that these trees just won't goon and on and on.
I mean, this appears to be asuccessful restoration
population.
SPEAKER_02 (08:57):
And so he feels that they are naturally blight
resistant.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
Yeah, he's not sure exactly, you know, why they
continue to grow, but it's hesays it, you know, it seems that
way.
They don't get the blight, theydon't, they're not killed by the
blight.
But interestingly, it's not juston his land where the trees are
thriving.
He has given away nuts andseedlings to other people in
other states, you know, Vermontand elsewhere, that are growing
(09:25):
the trees, and those trees arealso healthy.
So it's not just that there's,you know, maybe his popul maybe
his land is a little blight, um,you know, has no blight on it.
It's these trees go to otherplaces that have historically
had blight, and they do fine aswell.
So there's something going onthere that's very interesting,
and he hasn't done a detailedstudy on it to understand
(09:48):
exactly what it is.
He's just enjoying the fact thathe's surrounded by chestnuts.
SPEAKER_02 (09:51):
Aaron Ross Powell But he has done a detailed study
on the propagation of thesetrees and actually has uh
published a scientific paper.
And I I think it's worth sayingthat uh Dr.
Heinrich uh uh ha has 200scientific papers to his name,
over 200 scientific papers tohis name, over 20 books, uh
(10:13):
biology books.
Uh he is a well-known andwell-respected naturalist,
biologist, and author.
And um he is he's very excitedabout these trees.
He has published in scientificjournals, but there seems to be
a dearth of of response fromthose who who who who are dead
(10:37):
set on on creating a geneticallyengineered variety to put out
into the wild.
SPEAKER_01 (10:48):
I'll talk about two specific instance instances.
He wrote, Bart wrote, uh Dr.
Heinrich wrote an op-ed for theNew York Times about the wild
American chestnuts coming backon his land.
And this was, oh, I don't know,maybe 10 years ago.
And the response that he got wasfrom Dr.
(11:08):
William Powell, the researcherwho's been, you know, from the
beginning trying to create agenetically engineered American
chestnut tree.
And Dr.
Powell was completely dismissiveof Dr.
Heinrich's um paper, uh op-ed inthe in the New York Times,
saying, Oh, well, clearly theseare these are hybrids or there's
something going on here thatthese are not wild American
(11:29):
chestnuts.
And when we were up there, whenwe met with Barnt, we saw the
paperwork.
You know, these are wildAmerican chestnuts.
He got them from Michigan, wherethey have been growing quite
successfully.
Um, and you know, he imported, Ithink he said two dozen
altogether.
He planted some in Maine, heplanted some in Vermont, and
(11:50):
they've all thrived.
So, you know, maybe there'ssomething special about that
Michigan population of chestnutsthat they came from.
Um, but then Baird had anotherstudy that he did with students
from the University of Vermont,where he was a professor, who
came up and took a look at theuh the locations.
(12:11):
They did, they put GPS markerson all of the chestnuts that
they could find.
And they couldn't find all ofthem because his land is 600
acres and there are thousands ofchestnuts.
But they found, I think theydocumented in the paper, 1,300
chestnuts growing on hisproperty.
Um, so you know, this is notjust somebody who's saying, oh,
yeah, there's a lot ofchestnuts.
(12:32):
This is somebody who is ascientist and who has, you know,
done studies to see just howmany chestnuts are growing on
the property, and there arequite a number of them that we
saw, and many that we never hada chance to see because we were
only on a small portion of theproperty, but we we literally
saw hundreds of them.
SPEAKER_02 (12:50):
You know what's interesting is that I saw the uh
the receipts and thedocumentation.
Those were purchased uh in 1982,and that's well before any
genetic engineering attempts.
And I don't even think there wasa cross-breeding program back
then.
And and and this man and thosestudents uh from the university
(13:13):
who were documenting all thoseshould should indeed know the
difference between uh anAmerican chestnut and and and
and some nonnative variety.
Uh so it's very interesting thatuh Dr.
Powell was so dismissive.
And it's rather poignant that itwas his own program that uh was
(13:34):
researching uh or testing thewrong uh genetically engineered
variant for 15 years, and thisfamous debacle where where they
had uh actually done field testson the wrong tree for 15 years.
SPEAKER_01 (13:50):
Yeah, yeah.
The American ChestnutFoundation, which is, you know,
very pro-genetic engineering andhas been since about 2013.
They got, I think they gotsomebody from Monsanto on their
board, and all of a sudden theybecame very pro-genetic
engineering.
But um they they were the oneswho blew the whistle on the uh
(14:12):
environmental science, excuseme, this the College of
Environmental Science andForestry at SUNY Syracuse, uh,
where Dr.
Powell was leading the AmericanChestnut Restoration Proje
project.
And uh they pointed out theywere partners, those two
organizations, ESF and theAmerican Chestnut Foundation,
were partners in the GE program.
(14:32):
And they pointed out that sixyears prior, this was in
December of 2023, that they madethis revelation.
Six years prior, they had beengiven the wrong pollen.
So they were supposed to getpollen from a of a genetically
engineered tree known as Darling58, and instead they got pollen
from a tree called Darling 54,which had a serious genetic
(14:53):
defect.
And so they've been testing forsix years this genetically
defective tree that didn't growwell, that was killed by the
blight.
One of four of the trees diedbefore it even, you know, got
out of the ground.
It was it was really ridiculous.
Uh, you know, we're supposed totrust these people, these
researchers, to understand howforests work and to be able to
(15:16):
genetically engineer a tree thatwill survive in the forest, and
they don't even know what pollenthey're using.
I mean, come on.
So the fact that we've now notjust Dr.
Pine Rich, but other people inMassachusetts, in New York, I
mean Pennsylvania, there are allof these people coming forward
and saying, we have largesurviving wild American
(15:39):
chestnuts.
We see wild American chestnutscoming back here and there.
There was a place inMassachusetts where there was a
tornado that went through, andit there are all kinds of wild
American chestnut seedlingscoming in now where that opening
was made.
You know, they are having areturn, they are having a
resurgence.
And that is just the fact of thematter.
(16:01):
And people can poo-poo it, theycan say that it's not real, but
the fact of the matter is we'veseen it, we've documented it,
it's there.
SPEAKER_02 (16:08):
Aaron Powell At this point, I'd like to go to a
soundtrack from your upcomingdocumentary and listen to Dr.
Heinrich uh talk a little bitabout how he thinks these may be
blight-resistant trees.
SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
A lot of the work that our organization is doing
is looking at the potentialimpacts of these genetically
engineered American chestnuts,and the proponents of those
argue that we have to have thembecause they can't survive
otherwise, that they'refunctionally extinct.
Um I guess, you know, living inthe middle of thousands of
(16:43):
American chestnuts that arewilding themselves, I guess I
would ask you what your ideasand thoughts are on that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
All I can tell you is here there's no no not the
slightest hint of any blight.
And the thousands and thousandsof trees.
SPEAKER_02 (17:01):
So yeah, that's that's that's that's very
interesting.
And you mention and youmentioned Massachusetts.
It's, you know, that's a storywhere there was a tornado that
came through, and then thesenatural American chestnuts just
started to pop up and grow.
And that's what we hear from uhuh Dr.
Heinrich in in in the upcomingdocumentary is that where
(17:25):
there's an opening, thesechestnuts, in his words, really
take off.
SPEAKER_01 (17:31):
Exactly.
So they it it it's almost likethey're sitting in the forest in
the in the dark of the forest,these little seedlings, and
they're just waiting for anopening.
They're just waiting for alittle bit of sunlight and then
they take off.
So he has, you know, uh all overhis property chestnuts of all
kinds of sizes.
Many of them are are small onthe ground, waiting for the sun,
but then he has some that are 15feet tall, 20 feet tall, 40 feet
(17:54):
tall.
I mean, they're all over theproperty, and they are the ones
that are old enough areproducing healthy burrs, you
know, and each burr has threenuts in it.
He counted, he did a count ofone of his trees.
Um, he wanted to know how manyburrs it put out.
One of the original trees thathe planted, the 45-year-old
tree.
(18:14):
And he said he counted 4,000burrs that it this tree put out
in one season.
That's 12,000 nuts that this onetree put out.
So, I mean, it's just incrediblewhat's going on on his property
and what we're hearing that'sbeing echoed on other people's
land and in public lands aswell.
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
Yeah, it's it's it's really exciting to hear this.
Uh, you know, um the there's somuch talk, and just, you know,
even I think there's a PBSdocumentary that where they
talked about there might be asapling here or there, but
they're really zombie trees andthey're and they're not going to
live long.
Uh they're copus sprouts orwhatever.
I I I you know I I'm I'm not atree guy, I I just have to
(18:55):
admit.
But they they say that there'sthese these sprouts and you
know, and then they they quicklysuscumb to the blight.
But you have three generationshere.
Um and for whatever reason thereseems to be a rebounding in the
population.
Um and you know, uh the the thedoctor uh even I think in the in
(19:17):
the documentary, in the upcomingdocumentary, said he's not sure
exactly why, but uh you know, itmight not just be due to one
gene.
I mean, and and there's all thisfocus by uh people trying to
genetically engineer a tree byinserting a particular gene,
they might not be seeing uh thethe the forest from the
(19:37):
proverbial tree per se.
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
Right.
Yeah, clearly and as as thepeople who are researching the
Chinese chestnut have foundthere are many, many, many genes
in the in the Chinese chestnutthat are involved in blight
resistance.
So, you know, it's not a matterof they they say that the
researchers that they can putone gene from wheat into the
(20:00):
tree and it will successfully beblight resistant um, you know,
forever.
And it's it's really crazy.
It's not how genes work, it'snot how genomes work, it's not
how trees work, it's not howforests work.
I mean, everything'sinterconnected and uh things
evolve and things change, andthere are different
environmental stresses thatcause trees to basically turn
(20:22):
genes on and off in response.
And, you know, this idea thatone gene can make the difference
um for the future of theAmerican chestnut tree is
completely nonsense.
SPEAKER_02 (20:36):
So uh climate change.
Uh is there a possibility thatthe range is changing, that that
could be part of uh the factorof what's going on here?
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Oh, oh, absolutely.
In in fact, one of the the thenew head of the um College of
Environmental Science andForestry American Chestnut
Restoration Program is AndyNewhouse.
And back in 2018, I saw apresentation by Andy Newhouse
where he talked about theclimate change impacts on the
(21:08):
range of the American chestnut.
And the map that he showed wasthe American chestnut, which the
current range is basically someof northern New England down
into the southern Appalachians.
That's kind of where it is, andthere's a little tiny bit in
southern Ontario.
But they're showing uh his mapwas showing how with climate
change pressure, the new rangeof the American chestnut is very
(21:32):
much moving north into NewEngland and even north into
eastern Canada.
So, yeah, there's a huge um,there's going to be huge impact
on where the American chestnutwill grow in the future because
of climate change.
And I think that could be a realclue as to why the chestnuts are
doing so well at Dr.
(21:52):
Heinrich's land in Maine, isbecause that's where the
chestnuts are heading because ofclimate change pressures, um,
which is exciting becausethey're doing amazing.
So if they are there and theystart moving north, and you
know, New England and northernNew York or whatever have all of
these wild American chestnuts onthem, I think that's that's a
pretty exciting success story.
SPEAKER_02 (22:13):
Also, the American chestnut could do some
emigration to Canada as well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
Well, exactly.
I mean, you know, trees clearlydon't respect borders.
Um, so yeah, they'll be movingup into the Maritimes.
And and uh there's a groupcalled the Canadian Chestnut
Council in Canada that's alreadyworking with the particular
variety of American chestnutthat grows on the other side of
uh the Great Lakes.
And um, they are veryanti-genetically engineered
(22:38):
chestnut as well.
So they've been a really goodpartner in the campaign.
So, yeah, I mean, there's justso much potential for the
American chestnut coming back.
It's such a crime, it's such ashame to hear these naysayers
who are like, oh, it'sfunctionally extinct, it's never
gonna come back on its own, andblah, blah, blah.
And you know, and there's justso much evidence to the
contrary.
(22:58):
I just don't know why they go sonegative.
It doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Aaron Powell Well, it is a good news story for the
holiday, and we can all and wecan all use some good news.
Um anything you'd like to tellus about uh this uh short-form
documentary?
I mean, what's what is itspurpose?
Uh what do you hope toaccomplish with it?
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Well, the purpose of this documentary is to show
people this amazing comeback ofthe American chestnut so they
could see it with their owneyes.
Uh you know, it's one thing tohear about it, it's one thing to
read about it, it's anotherthing to see it, right?
And of course, we saw it inperson, which was amazing, but
it we also took video of it sothat people could see all of
(23:41):
these chestnuts coming back,they could see how healthy they
were, they could see that it'snot just the first generation or
the second generation, butactually three generations of uh
healthy wild American chestnuts.
We wanted people to be able tosee that.
And we wanted them to be able tohear from Dr.
Heinrich about these chestnutson his land and the story behind
them.
And it's, you know, it's justit's such a good, good news
(24:06):
story that we wanted to shareit.
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
And and Dr.
Heinrich himself is such aninteresting personality, such a
and an accomplished scientistand noted author.
This is going to be great towatch.
SPEAKER_01 (24:18):
One more thing about Bernd Heinrich that was really
interesting.
Um, you know, he's in his 80s.
He's retired, he's, you know,lives off the grid, he's writing
some books.
He's just a really interestingperson.
But then we were looking at thetrees and he wanted to show us
the burrs that were growing onthe second generation trees, the
ones that were planted by theblue jays as a result of the
(24:41):
plant the original trees that heplanted 45 years ago, but they
weren't ripe.
They were still at the top ofthe tree.
So he just grabbed a branch andstarted climbing.
And before we knew it, he was 25feet up in the tree, you know,
grabbing this uh chestnut burrand throwing it down to us so we
could see it.
And it was just like, wow, whatwhat's what's going on here?
I mean, you know, and then youyou I know a little bit about
(25:04):
Dr.
Heinrich's history, and he wasan ultra-long distance runner.
I mean, this guy was just anincredible character.
So it was wonderful to get achance to see him and and uh see
his chestnuts and hear hisstory.
But um, but to see the movie, ifpeople are interested in seeing
the movie, we're we're going topremiere it on December 4th.
(25:26):
And we have a website that hasall the information, the
registration for watching themovie and all of that, which is
thewildamericanchestnut.org.
So that's a pretty easy one toremember.
Thewildamericanchestnut.org.
People can go there, they canfind more information, they can
sign up for the movie, um, andlet us know, you know, if you
(25:47):
want to be in touch, if you wantto help us, if you want to, if
you have your own chestnutstory, please share it.
Share it on the uh on thewebsite.
That would be amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
Thank you, Ann Peterman, for joining us on
Breaking Green.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
Thank you so much, Keith.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
You have been listening to Breaking Green, a
Global Justice Ecology Projectpodcast.
To learn more about GlobalJustice Ecology Project, visit
globaljusticeecology.org.
Breaking Green is made possibleby tax-deductible donations by
people like you.
Please help us lift up thevoices of those working to
(26:20):
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That's 1716-257-4187.
Welcome to Breaking Green.
This is your host, Steve Taylor.
And on this episode, we'regetting into the holiday spirit.
Just in time for the holidays,Global Justice Ecology Project
is releasing a new documentary,The Wild American Chestnut.
Regular listeners will know thatthere has been an attempt to
(00:21):
genetically engineer thisspecies and release it into the
wild.
But this new documentarydemonstrates that there is a
natural comeback alreadyunderway in Western Maine.
On this episode of BreakingGreen, we will talk with Ann
Peterman, Executive Director ofGlobal Justice Ecology Project.
(00:43):
Ann Peterman, welcome toBreaking Green.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Thanks so much for having me on again, Steve.
SPEAKER_02 (00:50):
Well, it's our pleasure, and uh it's we're
we're going into the holidayseason, and I think we have
something very exciting to talkabout.
Global Justice Ecology Projectis producing a short-form
documentary, environmentalinvestigation on the wild
(01:10):
American chestnut and its uhapparent revival in western
Maine.
Could you tell us a little bitabout that?
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
That's right.
Yeah, we've been hearing for awhile the stories about this
man, Baron Heinrich, who is uhactually a pretty well-known
naturalist and a professoremeritus from the University of
Vermont, and that he has this,you know, very large number of
wild American chestnut treesgrowing on his land that are
(01:42):
healthy.
They don't have any um sign ofthe blight.
And so we we wanted to see thisfor ourselves.
We we've been hearing about it,and it just feels like this is
the kind of thing that we needright now, right?
We need some kind of positiveenergy that we can go into next
year with understanding that,you know, nature is resilient,
(02:04):
it's coming back, the ch thewild American chestnut's coming
back, you know, with the help ofuh, you know, Barrent planted
the first two and a few others,but the rest of the thousands,
literally thousands, on his landhave been planted by blue jays
and squirrels.
So it's it's really an amazingsuccess story for this tree that
was decimated by this introducedblight from Asia about 125 years
(02:28):
ago.
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
Wow.
So let's let's look at that alittle closer.
So the the in 1904 uh there wasa blight uh and that as well as
logging and and and otherpressures on the on the uh wild
American chestnut caused it tobe what many uh people have been
(02:51):
referring to as functionallyextinct, uh and that has led
some people to try to produce ahybrid by crossbreeding or and
actually back crossbreeding tofind more blight-resistant
strains.
And then also the controversialum uh proposal which uh Global
(03:14):
Justice Ecology Project and theStop GE Trees campaign has
vigorously opposed, which is tocreate uh a transgenic tree to
release into the wild.
So could you talk a little bitabout what has been going on
when it comes to uh approachesuh to revive the tree leading up
(03:38):
to this uh uh investigation andthis uh this great uh experience
on uh Dr.
Heinrich's uh uh land and seeingall these 100% natural
chestnuts.
SPEAKER_01 (03:52):
Sure.
Yeah, there's been quite anumber, pretty much since the
blight was discovered back inthe early part of the last
century, there have been effortsto figure out how to deal with
it, how to stop it fromspreading.
And, you know, that includedmassive clear-cut swaths.
They actually cut a couple ofmile uh wide swath through the
(04:13):
entire state of Pennsylvania,trying to stop the blight from
getting any further south, um,because it started in in uh
actually in the Bronx Zoo uh inNew York.
And anyway, there were a lot ofum, there have been a lot of
attempts.
One of the first attempts wasbreeding the American chestnut
(04:34):
with a Chinese chestnut, whichthe Chinese chestnuts are
naturally resistant to theblight, and it was an Asian
chestnut that was brought overthat brought the blight with it.
Um, classic uh, you know,corporate globalization or or
globalization, globalizing,moving plants around globally is
never a good idea because of allthe pests and pathogens that
(04:54):
come along with it.
But anyway, that's anotherstory.
Um, so we have the uh theattempts to hybridize the
American chestnut with theChinese chestnut, there have
been a lot of successes withthat, but it's not a forest
tree, okay?
It's good for orchards.
People are growing them here andthere um in orchards and
(05:14):
producing lots of chestnuts tosell, but you can't put those
trees back in the forest.
The even though they've got atree that's now 1516 American
chestnut and one-sixteenthChinese chestnut, it still has
the physical characteristics ofa Chinese chestnut.
So it's kind of short and squat,kind of like an orchard tree.
It doesn't do well, it doesn'tcompete well in the forest.
(05:38):
So that has not been a real goodrestoration tree as far as
bringing it back to the forests.
Um, then there have beenattempts, there's an
organization called the AmericanChestnut Cooperators Foundation,
which is in Virginia, that hasbeen finding surviving, large,
large surviving Americanchestnuts and that have some
level of blight resistance andbreeding them together for
(06:01):
decades, and they have what theybelieve are successfully
blight-resistant Americanchestnuts.
They still get the blight, butthey survive it.
They aren't killed by it.
Um, so that's a pretty excitingdevelopment.
And then what we're hearingabout more recently through our
work against the geneticallyengineered chestnut is people
coming forward and saying, hey,we have uh, you know, wild
(06:24):
American chestnuts growing by usand they seem to be doing really
well, which has given us thisidea that they are finding a way
to come back on their own.
You know, they are finding a wayto be blight resistant all on
their own, or to somehow survivethe blight.
And so that's why we went up toBaron Heinrich's land to see
(06:46):
this huge population, thousandsof American wild American
chestnuts that are growing andand growing very uh well and
very healthily.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
So it's also important to note that he didn't
plant all of these, that heplanted a few, and that and that
was w what, 40 years ago, 45years ago, and that they have
themselves beenself-propagating, and you now
have uh, you know, uh threegenerations of trees.
(07:17):
So um what was that like uhseeing those when we've been
told all these years, and it'salways been, you know, like like
top line up or bottom line upfront, uh, you know, chestnuts
can't survive on their own.
You know, they may sprout, butthey'll die off from the blight.
What was it like seeing thatwith your own eyes?
SPEAKER_01 (07:38):
It was it was amazing.
I mean, it was amazing to seethat.
Um so Barrent showed us thefirst two trees that he planted,
which are quite large.
I mean, as you mentioned,they're about 45 years old at
this point, and they're at least40 feet tall.
Um, the the diameter at breastheight, the DBH, is at least 24
inches.
(07:58):
I mean, they're quite largetrees, and they have not only
been producing lots and lots ofoffspring, lots and lots of
seedlings and saplings that aregrowing in the vicinity, and
even Barrett said they trackedthem with a bunch of university
students.
They tracked one at as far awayas a mile from these parent
trees.
(08:18):
But not only that, some of thesetrees that have not just been
planted by people, because heonly planted a few, that have
been planted by blue jays andsquirrels, have themselves been
growing up into mature trees.
And now some of them areproducing nuts, um, producing
firs and nuts.
And that is um that has beentruly incredible.
(08:41):
So those are now producingoffspring.
So we have the children of hisoriginal trees and the
grandchildren, if you will, ofthose original trees.
And talking to Bear, he said,yeah, I have no reason to think
that these trees just won't goon and on and on.
I mean, this appears to be asuccessful restoration
population.
SPEAKER_02 (08:57):
And so he feels that they are naturally blight
resistant.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
Yeah, he's not sure exactly, you know, why they
continue to grow, but it's hesays it, you know, it seems that
way.
They don't get the blight, theydon't, they're not killed by the
blight.
But interestingly, it's not juston his land where the trees are
thriving.
He has given away nuts andseedlings to other people in
other states, you know, Vermontand elsewhere, that are growing
(09:25):
the trees, and those trees arealso healthy.
So it's not just that there's,you know, maybe his popul maybe
his land is a little blight, um,you know, has no blight on it.
It's these trees go to otherplaces that have historically
had blight, and they do fine aswell.
So there's something going onthere that's very interesting,
and he hasn't done a detailedstudy on it to understand
(09:48):
exactly what it is.
He's just enjoying the fact thathe's surrounded by chestnuts.
SPEAKER_02 (09:51):
Aaron Ross Powell But he has done a detailed study
on the propagation of thesetrees and actually has uh
published a scientific paper.
And I I think it's worth sayingthat uh Dr.
Heinrich uh uh ha has 200scientific papers to his name,
over 200 scientific papers tohis name, over 20 books, uh
(10:13):
biology books.
Uh he is a well-known andwell-respected naturalist,
biologist, and author.
And um he is he's very excitedabout these trees.
He has published in scientificjournals, but there seems to be
a dearth of of response fromthose who who who who are dead
(10:37):
set on on creating a geneticallyengineered variety to put out
into the wild.
SPEAKER_01 (10:48):
I'll talk about two specific instance instances.
He wrote, Bart wrote, uh Dr.
Heinrich wrote an op-ed for theNew York Times about the wild
American chestnuts coming backon his land.
And this was, oh, I don't know,maybe 10 years ago.
And the response that he got wasfrom Dr.
(11:08):
William Powell, the researcherwho's been, you know, from the
beginning trying to create agenetically engineered American
chestnut tree.
And Dr.
Powell was completely dismissiveof Dr.
Heinrich's um paper, uh op-ed inthe in the New York Times,
saying, Oh, well, clearly theseare these are hybrids or there's
something going on here thatthese are not wild American
(11:29):
chestnuts.
And when we were up there, whenwe met with Barnt, we saw the
paperwork.
You know, these are wildAmerican chestnuts.
He got them from Michigan, wherethey have been growing quite
successfully.
Um, and you know, he imported, Ithink he said two dozen
altogether.
He planted some in Maine, heplanted some in Vermont, and
(11:50):
they've all thrived.
So, you know, maybe there'ssomething special about that
Michigan population of chestnutsthat they came from.
Um, but then Baird had anotherstudy that he did with students
from the University of Vermont,where he was a professor, who
came up and took a look at theuh the locations.
(12:11):
They did, they put GPS markerson all of the chestnuts that
they could find.
And they couldn't find all ofthem because his land is 600
acres and there are thousands ofchestnuts.
But they found, I think theydocumented in the paper, 1,300
chestnuts growing on hisproperty.
Um, so you know, this is notjust somebody who's saying, oh,
yeah, there's a lot ofchestnuts.
(12:32):
This is somebody who is ascientist and who has, you know,
done studies to see just howmany chestnuts are growing on
the property, and there arequite a number of them that we
saw, and many that we never hada chance to see because we were
only on a small portion of theproperty, but we we literally
saw hundreds of them.
SPEAKER_02 (12:50):
You know what's interesting is that I saw the uh
the receipts and thedocumentation.
Those were purchased uh in 1982,and that's well before any
genetic engineering attempts.
And I don't even think there wasa cross-breeding program back
then.
And and and this man and thosestudents uh from the university
(13:13):
who were documenting all thoseshould should indeed know the
difference between uh anAmerican chestnut and and and
and some nonnative variety.
Uh so it's very interesting thatuh Dr.
Powell was so dismissive.
And it's rather poignant that itwas his own program that uh was
(13:34):
researching uh or testing thewrong uh genetically engineered
variant for 15 years, and thisfamous debacle where where they
had uh actually done field testson the wrong tree for 15 years.
SPEAKER_01 (13:50):
Yeah, yeah.
The American ChestnutFoundation, which is, you know,
very pro-genetic engineering andhas been since about 2013.
They got, I think they gotsomebody from Monsanto on their
board, and all of a sudden theybecame very pro-genetic
engineering.
But um they they were the oneswho blew the whistle on the uh
(14:12):
environmental science, excuseme, this the College of
Environmental Science andForestry at SUNY Syracuse, uh,
where Dr.
Powell was leading the AmericanChestnut Restoration Proje
project.
And uh they pointed out theywere partners, those two
organizations, ESF and theAmerican Chestnut Foundation,
were partners in the GE program.
(14:32):
And they pointed out that sixyears prior, this was in
December of 2023, that they madethis revelation.
Six years prior, they had beengiven the wrong pollen.
So they were supposed to getpollen from a of a genetically
engineered tree known as Darling58, and instead they got pollen
from a tree called Darling 54,which had a serious genetic
(14:53):
defect.
And so they've been testing forsix years this genetically
defective tree that didn't growwell, that was killed by the
blight.
One of four of the trees diedbefore it even, you know, got
out of the ground.
It was it was really ridiculous.
Uh, you know, we're supposed totrust these people, these
researchers, to understand howforests work and to be able to
(15:16):
genetically engineer a tree thatwill survive in the forest, and
they don't even know what pollenthey're using.
I mean, come on.
So the fact that we've now notjust Dr.
Pine Rich, but other people inMassachusetts, in New York, I
mean Pennsylvania, there are allof these people coming forward
and saying, we have largesurviving wild American
(15:39):
chestnuts.
We see wild American chestnutscoming back here and there.
There was a place inMassachusetts where there was a
tornado that went through, andit there are all kinds of wild
American chestnut seedlingscoming in now where that opening
was made.
You know, they are having areturn, they are having a
resurgence.
And that is just the fact of thematter.
(16:01):
And people can poo-poo it, theycan say that it's not real, but
the fact of the matter is we'veseen it, we've documented it,
it's there.
SPEAKER_02 (16:08):
Aaron Powell At this point, I'd like to go to a
soundtrack from your upcomingdocumentary and listen to Dr.
Heinrich uh talk a little bitabout how he thinks these may be
blight-resistant trees.
SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
A lot of the work that our organization is doing
is looking at the potentialimpacts of these genetically
engineered American chestnuts,and the proponents of those
argue that we have to have thembecause they can't survive
otherwise, that they'refunctionally extinct.
Um I guess, you know, living inthe middle of thousands of
(16:43):
American chestnuts that arewilding themselves, I guess I
would ask you what your ideasand thoughts are on that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:49):
All I can tell you is here there's no no not the
slightest hint of any blight.
And the thousands and thousandsof trees.
SPEAKER_02 (17:01):
So yeah, that's that's that's that's very
interesting.
And you mention and youmentioned Massachusetts.
It's, you know, that's a storywhere there was a tornado that
came through, and then thesenatural American chestnuts just
started to pop up and grow.
And that's what we hear from uhuh Dr.
Heinrich in in in the upcomingdocumentary is that where
(17:25):
there's an opening, thesechestnuts, in his words, really
take off.
SPEAKER_01 (17:31):
Exactly.
So they it it it's almost likethey're sitting in the forest in
the in the dark of the forest,these little seedlings, and
they're just waiting for anopening.
They're just waiting for alittle bit of sunlight and then
they take off.
So he has, you know, uh all overhis property chestnuts of all
kinds of sizes.
Many of them are are small onthe ground, waiting for the sun,
but then he has some that are 15feet tall, 20 feet tall, 40 feet
(17:54):
tall.
I mean, they're all over theproperty, and they are the ones
that are old enough areproducing healthy burrs, you
know, and each burr has threenuts in it.
He counted, he did a count ofone of his trees.
Um, he wanted to know how manyburrs it put out.
One of the original trees thathe planted, the 45-year-old
tree.
(18:14):
And he said he counted 4,000burrs that it this tree put out
in one season.
That's 12,000 nuts that this onetree put out.
So, I mean, it's just incrediblewhat's going on on his property
and what we're hearing that'sbeing echoed on other people's
land and in public lands aswell.
SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
Yeah, it's it's it's really exciting to hear this.
Uh, you know, um the there's somuch talk, and just, you know,
even I think there's a PBSdocumentary that where they
talked about there might be asapling here or there, but
they're really zombie trees andthey're and they're not going to
live long.
Uh they're copus sprouts orwhatever.
I I I you know I I'm I'm not atree guy, I I just have to
(18:55):
admit.
But they they say that there'sthese these sprouts and you
know, and then they they quicklysuscumb to the blight.
But you have three generationshere.
Um and for whatever reason thereseems to be a rebounding in the
population.
Um and you know, uh the the thedoctor uh even I think in the in
(19:17):
the documentary, in the upcomingdocumentary, said he's not sure
exactly why, but uh you know, itmight not just be due to one
gene.
I mean, and and there's all thisfocus by uh people trying to
genetically engineer a tree byinserting a particular gene,
they might not be seeing uh thethe the forest from the
(19:37):
proverbial tree per se.
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
Right.
Yeah, clearly and as as thepeople who are researching the
Chinese chestnut have foundthere are many, many, many genes
in the in the Chinese chestnutthat are involved in blight
resistance.
So, you know, it's not a matterof they they say that the
researchers that they can putone gene from wheat into the
(20:00):
tree and it will successfully beblight resistant um, you know,
forever.
And it's it's really crazy.
It's not how genes work, it'snot how genomes work, it's not
how trees work, it's not howforests work.
I mean, everything'sinterconnected and uh things
evolve and things change, andthere are different
environmental stresses thatcause trees to basically turn
(20:22):
genes on and off in response.
And, you know, this idea thatone gene can make the difference
um for the future of theAmerican chestnut tree is
completely nonsense.
SPEAKER_02 (20:36):
So uh climate change.
Uh is there a possibility thatthe range is changing, that that
could be part of uh the factorof what's going on here?
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Oh, oh, absolutely.
In in fact, one of the the thenew head of the um College of
Environmental Science andForestry American Chestnut
Restoration Program is AndyNewhouse.
And back in 2018, I saw apresentation by Andy Newhouse
where he talked about theclimate change impacts on the
(21:08):
range of the American chestnut.
And the map that he showed wasthe American chestnut, which the
current range is basically someof northern New England down
into the southern Appalachians.
That's kind of where it is, andthere's a little tiny bit in
southern Ontario.
But they're showing uh his mapwas showing how with climate
change pressure, the new rangeof the American chestnut is very
(21:32):
much moving north into NewEngland and even north into
eastern Canada.
So, yeah, there's a huge um,there's going to be huge impact
on where the American chestnutwill grow in the future because
of climate change.
And I think that could be a realclue as to why the chestnuts are
doing so well at Dr.
(21:52):
Heinrich's land in Maine, isbecause that's where the
chestnuts are heading because ofclimate change pressures, um,
which is exciting becausethey're doing amazing.
So if they are there and theystart moving north, and you
know, New England and northernNew York or whatever have all of
these wild American chestnuts onthem, I think that's that's a
pretty exciting success story.
SPEAKER_02 (22:13):
Also, the American chestnut could do some
emigration to Canada as well.
SPEAKER_01 (22:17):
Well, exactly.
I mean, you know, trees clearlydon't respect borders.
Um, so yeah, they'll be movingup into the Maritimes.
And and uh there's a groupcalled the Canadian Chestnut
Council in Canada that's alreadyworking with the particular
variety of American chestnutthat grows on the other side of
uh the Great Lakes.
And um, they are veryanti-genetically engineered
(22:38):
chestnut as well.
So they've been a really goodpartner in the campaign.
So, yeah, I mean, there's justso much potential for the
American chestnut coming back.
It's such a crime, it's such ashame to hear these naysayers
who are like, oh, it'sfunctionally extinct, it's never
gonna come back on its own, andblah, blah, blah.
And you know, and there's justso much evidence to the
contrary.
(22:58):
I just don't know why they go sonegative.
It doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Aaron Powell Well, it is a good news story for the
holiday, and we can all and wecan all use some good news.
Um anything you'd like to tellus about uh this uh short-form
documentary?
I mean, what's what is itspurpose?
Uh what do you hope toaccomplish with it?
SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Well, the purpose of this documentary is to show
people this amazing comeback ofthe American chestnut so they
could see it with their owneyes.
Uh you know, it's one thing tohear about it, it's one thing to
read about it, it's anotherthing to see it, right?
And of course, we saw it inperson, which was amazing, but
it we also took video of it sothat people could see all of
(23:41):
these chestnuts coming back,they could see how healthy they
were, they could see that it'snot just the first generation or
the second generation, butactually three generations of uh
healthy wild American chestnuts.
We wanted people to be able tosee that.
And we wanted them to be able tohear from Dr.
Heinrich about these chestnutson his land and the story behind
them.
And it's, you know, it's justit's such a good, good news
(24:06):
story that we wanted to shareit.
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
And and Dr.
Heinrich himself is such aninteresting personality, such a
and an accomplished scientistand noted author.
This is going to be great towatch.
SPEAKER_01 (24:18):
One more thing about Bernd Heinrich that was really
interesting.
Um, you know, he's in his 80s.
He's retired, he's, you know,lives off the grid, he's writing
some books.
He's just a really interestingperson.
But then we were looking at thetrees and he wanted to show us
the burrs that were growing onthe second generation trees, the
ones that were planted by theblue jays as a result of the
(24:41):
plant the original trees that heplanted 45 years ago, but they
weren't ripe.
They were still at the top ofthe tree.
So he just grabbed a branch andstarted climbing.
And before we knew it, he was 25feet up in the tree, you know,
grabbing this uh chestnut burrand throwing it down to us so we
could see it.
And it was just like, wow, whatwhat's what's going on here?
I mean, you know, and then youyou I know a little bit about
(25:04):
Dr.
Heinrich's history, and he wasan ultra-long distance runner.
I mean, this guy was just anincredible character.
So it was wonderful to get achance to see him and and uh see
his chestnuts and hear hisstory.
But um, but to see the movie, ifpeople are interested in seeing
the movie, we're we're going topremiere it on December 4th.
(25:26):
And we have a website that hasall the information, the
registration for watching themovie and all of that, which is
thewildamericanchestnut.org.
So that's a pretty easy one toremember.
Thewildamericanchestnut.org.
People can go there, they canfind more information, they can
sign up for the movie, um, andlet us know, you know, if you
(25:47):
want to be in touch, if you wantto help us, if you want to, if
you have your own chestnutstory, please share it.
Share it on the uh on thewebsite.
That would be amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (25:55):
Thank you, Ann Peterman, for joining us on
Breaking Green.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
Thank you so much, Keith.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
You have been listening to Breaking Green, a
Global Justice Ecology Projectpodcast.
To learn more about GlobalJustice Ecology Project, visit
globaljusticeecology.org.
Breaking Green is made possibleby tax-deductible donations by
people like you.
Please help us lift up thevoices of those working to
(26:20):
protect forest, defend humanrights, and expose all
solutions.
Simply text or GIF at GIDE21716-2574187.
That's 1716-257-4187.
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