April 10, 2024 • 42 mins
When the salmon numbers in the Klamath River dwindled, it wasn't just a loss of wildlife, it was a piece of Brook Thompson's heritage slipping away. Our latest episode of Breaking Green features Brook, a Yurok and Karuk Native American, water resource engineer, and PhD student, who unravels the deep ties between her tribe's culture and the river's salmon. Discover how she leverages her academic prowess and indigenous insight to fight against the environmental crises that threaten both her community's traditions and the planet's health.
Join us as we traverse the complex landscape of salmon conservation, where Brook illuminates the delicate balance of water flow management, the harrowing impact of the 2002 salmon kill, and the vital role of habitat restoration. Her story is one of resilience and purpose, driving home the importance of integrating indigenous knowledge with modern science. From the halls of academia to the United Nations climate conferences, Brooke's voice brings a fresh perspective to the urgent dialogue on conservation and the empowerment of indigenous leaders.
As we wrap up the conversation, Brooke doesn't shy away from the pressing issues of our times—microplastics in fish, renewable energy projects on indigenous lands, and the need for authentic representation in environmental policy-making. Her call to action is clear: to heal our planet, we must honor the wisdom of those who have cherished it for millennia. By supporting indigenous voices and practices, we're not just upholding justice; we're investing in a legacy of stewardship that could save us all.
This podcast is produced by Global Justice Ecology Project.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve Taylor (00:00):
Welcome to Breaking Green, a podcast by
Global Justice Ecology Project.
On Breaking Green, we will talkwith activists and experts to
examine the intertwined issuesof social, ecological and
economic injustice.
We will also explore some ofthe more outrageous proposals to
address climate andenvironmental crises that are
(00:22):
falsely being sold as green.
I am your host, steve Taylor.
Most of the Earth'sbiodiversity is on lands managed
by indigenous peoples, but whatrole are indigenous voices
being allowed to play in majorenvironmental decisions?
On this episode of BreakingGreen, we will talk with Brooke
Thompson, a Yurok and KarukNative American from Northern
(00:45):
California.
She is a PhD student at theUniversity of California, santa
Cruz, and works as a restorationengineer for the Yurok tribe.
In 2022, brooke Thompsongraduated with a Master's of
Science at Stanford Universityin Environmental Engineering,
with a focus on water resourceand hydrology.
(01:05):
In 2020, brooke Thompsonreceived a Bachelor's of Science
from Portland StateUniversity's Honors College,
with a degree in civilengineering.
She is a recipient of the GatesMillennium Scholar Award 2020,
unity's 25 Under 25 recipient, aDennis Washington Scholar,
american Indian GraduateCenter's 2017 Undergraduate
(01:28):
Student of the Year and anAmerican Indian Society of
Science and Engineering SequoiaFellow.
Brooke Thompson, welcome toBreaking Green.
Brook Thompson (01:39):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Steve Taylor (01:42):
Well, Brook, there's so much to talk about
when it comes to you.
You work as a restorationengineer.
We'd like to talk to you aboutyour educational journey, your
current PhD work, politicalactivism and more point to start
(02:11):
is growing up on the KlamathRiver as a member of the Yurok
and Karuk tribe and what itmeant to live alongside the
salmon.
Brook Thompson (02:15):
Yeah.
So for me just to kind of getan idea of where I grew up, the
Klamath River is kind of cool,so I'm always wearing like one
of my sweatshirts down there,probably a pair of jeans as a
kid, but it's real rocky on theshoreline, with a big beach at
(02:36):
the mouth of the Klamath River.
So the mouth is where theKlamath meets the Pacific Ocean
and that's where my tribe, orwhere I lived on my tribal lands
, and so my family has beenliving in that area for time
immemorial, so at a minimum15,000 plus years, and we're
(02:58):
surrounded by mountains andredwood trees.
So you know, as a kid growingup in Northern California, to me
redwood trees are like thenormal size trees.
So when I go other places everyother tree looks kind of small
to me because I'm used to treestowering overhead.
But with that, most of my timewas spent on the river in a boat
(03:24):
growing up, especially in thesummertime with my dad, and we
would live alongside the riverand sometimes either camp out
for what felt like weeks tocatch salmon.
So you know how some kids likewinter or spring, summer breaks
(03:45):
revolved around I don't knowwhat other kids did actually,
but I assume like going to campsor whatnot, but my summer was
always filled with salmonfishing and that's how they'd
even make money to get schoolclothes and school supplies for
the coming year.
So it would be getting in aprobably don't know like a
(04:06):
10-foot boat, like one of thosedrift boats that is made out of
aluminum with a 25 horsepowerengine on the back and oars that
I got really good arms when Iwas younger from paddling around
and we would set nets.
So we have these drift netswhere it's like this plastic
(04:29):
netting um, with a bunch of whatare they called Diamonds, and
what happens is the salmon willswim, try to swim through the
net and they won't be able tosee it and their gills will get
caught in the net.
And then when you do that, yousee these buoys start to Bob up
and down and then you yell fishon and then you get in the net.
And then, when you do that, yousee these buoys start to bob up
and down and then you yell fishon and then you get in the boat,
paddle as fast as you can andthen race to the bottom of the
(04:53):
net, which can be as deep asabout 50 feet, and then you pull
in the salmon.
But since I'm kind of small I'monly five, two now, so I was
obviously I'm like the same sizeof the salmon as a kid.
So you just kind of like hug itwith your whole body like
you're a wrestler doing like, uh, doing a finishing move, and
then you lean back in the boatand then tug it in and fight the
(05:15):
salmon and bring it in the boatand pop the gill so all the
blood bleeds out and it dies andyou spend, spend, I don't know
10, 12 hours doing that everysingle day from spring to fall.
But yeah, that was, that wasthe majority of my childhood is
spending that time on the riverwith my family.
Steve Taylor (05:36):
It sounds like you spend a lot of time there
personally, but in general, whatis the cultural significance of
salmon to the tribe?
Brook Thompson (05:50):
So it's hard to summarize that completely
because it's, in a sense, it'severything.
So for us, traditionally, in astudy that was done on the group
people in 2005, it showed thatwe ate around 450 pounds of
salmon per person per yeartraditionally and that number in
(06:11):
2005 was down to five poundsper person per year.
And keeping in mind in 2005, Iwas still catching a significant
amount of fish each day.
It wasn't as much as mygrandfather's time.
Like my grandfather talkedabout a time where there's so
many salmon, you could walkacross the box to the other side
of the Klamath, but we werecatching enough to get by, and
(06:35):
so I'm sure that's part of whatI'm doing with my research right
now.
I'm sure that number is much,much lower because I haven't
caught a salmon in two years nowpersonally.
And fall salmon fishing wascompletely shut down this fall
this year on the Klamath, whereeven our salmon festival had no
salmon at it.
But in addition to how muchnutrients?
(06:56):
Because salmon have this greatamount of protein, of fats, of
healthy oils and vitamins andnutrients that really helped
with our survival and growth.
But on top of that, in havingit for ceremony and
understanding managementtechniques to keep salmon
plentiful for years to come.
(07:17):
There's these small culturalthings that come with a salmon,
like one of my uncles.
He talks about his grandmasaying that the best salmon
you'll ever have is the one thatyou never eat.
And that's because when youcatch a salmon and there's
(07:37):
someone else in need, like anelder or someone who's disabled
and can't fish themselves, yougive that fish to that person.
And so she was saying that ifyou catch the fish but you give
it to someone who needs it more,you'll get that fuller feeling
in your spirit and your soul,even if you're not eating it
yourself.
And it's like how do you passdown these values of the culture
(08:02):
and these traditions andunderstanding if you don't have
that salmon to give away in thefirst place?
Steve Taylor (08:09):
And then also, I think I've heard you say in
other interviews that there's afood desert Without the salmon.
When it comes to processedfoods, there's really a food
desert where you live.
Brook Thompson (08:23):
Yeah.
So a food desert being it'shard to get any type of food
that we're not hunting orcatching ourselves in the area.
So to and where I grew up inKlamath, california, along the
mouth of the river and I thinkthis is true for most of the
reservation you either have todrive at least right now it's
(08:44):
about an hour and a half roundtrip up north to Crescent city
to get to the nearest grocerystore, or you have to go a four
plus hour round trip down Southto Eureka Arcata area to get to
the nearest grocery store.
And right, that's contingent onother things too, that's if you
have a working car.
And that's also likeconsidering gas, like the gas
(09:06):
prices are so wild now, like Idon't know if I'd be able to
afford that when we were kids.
Like to be able to make thattrip.
So, because those things costmoney and time, because, right,
that time you're going back andforth, it's also time you're not
working, we, you want to makethe most out of that trip and
you only have so much money.
You want to make the most outof that trip and you only have
(09:27):
so much money.
So to do that, you usually haveto buy cheaper foods or foods
that have a longer shelf lifeand cheap foods that have a long
shelf life tend not to be thehealthiest foods, especially
compared to salmon, and myfamily wouldn't be able to
afford the same salmon qualitythat we caught.
So think about like.
Every day I got to eat salmon,like salmon on sticks, smoked
(09:48):
salmon that we call salmon candy, that we eat over the winter.
This is our natural way topreserve it Salmon patties by
scraping off the ribs of thesalmon, which I don't I don't
even think that's.
I don't know what producers dowith like those other parts of
the salmon, but like even salmonstew from like the tail and the
head.
You can eat the eyeballs andeat the cheeks, I like the skin,
(10:08):
et cetera, and you got all thisnutrients.
So I'm also studying nutrientsin salmon as part of my PhD, but
it we sold the salmon for about$5 per pound to middlemen when
I was a kid, sold the salmon forabout $5 per pound to middlemen
(10:29):
when I was a kid, and that samesalmon I've seen sold in
grocery stores for around $35 apound, and so there's no way we
can afford the same salmon we'reable to sell and so, like it's
not, it's not even a matter oflike getting that food, it's.
It just feels so insane to methat we can sell something
that's so valuable to us socheaply but then also not be
(10:49):
able to get it back in our timeof need, if that makes sense.
Steve Taylor (10:53):
It does, and I think what's really important
here is that the salmon not onlyhave cultural significance, but
the lack of it, it has realeconomic and health consequences
.
Brook Thompson (11:06):
Yeah, I mean exactly Because there's all
these unaccounted effects wherehaving this poor food because
living in a food desert and notbeing able to get this
nutritious food that we just gotnaturally it was all around us
initially Then you have higherblood pressure rates, you have
obesity, you have heart disease,you have all these
(11:30):
cardiovascular diseases thatthen have a cost associated with
it as well, and real life ordeath, I mean I think that's the
thing for me at the end of theday is like this isn't just a
struggle for salmon or wantingto fish for salmon.
This is a struggle for the lifeof death of our culture and the
life to death of our people,because not having that
(11:54):
nutritious food has real impacton our life and quality of life.
Steve Taylor (12:00):
So what has caused that?
What has caused the decline ofthe salmon?
Brook Thompson (12:11):
I wish again.
There's not going to be astraight answer to any of these
things, but well, a bit of.
It's like a death from athousand paper cuts, in the
sense that there's a lot goingon here, but some of it has been
through the damming of theKlamath River which, after 20
years of struggle and and afteryou know myself witnessing the
largest salmon kill in WestCoast history in 2002 on the
Klamath, where over 60,000salmon died, we're now having
(12:35):
four of the six dams removed onthe Klamath River, which is huge
.
So those dams did not have fishladders on it, so it it was
cutting off hundreds of miles ofsalmon habitat, and a lot of
that salmon habitat were thespring salmon's habitat.
So we're having that removedand that will be a big deal for
(13:01):
having new habitat opened up forthe salmon and also having more
flows of soil, because havingpeople think about like the
water flowing back and forth inthe water cycle, but there's
also a cycle with the sediment,so like soils, because soils
carry nutrients in it that canbe beneficial to fish and other
creatures and plants downstream,so that soil cycle and flow of
(13:25):
nutrients will be more restoredas well.
But there's also water flows.
So having enough water, enoughcool water when the salmon need
it, because a salmon, you know,they're not just going up there
blindly, they make decisions onwhen they go up river to spawn
or when they go out.
And we can control part of that, because now it's not natural.
(13:49):
Now, right, we're controllingwhen the flows happen and
there's a lot of people fightingover the flows of water.
So I think that's where it getsthe most complex, because,
again, it's where the water iscoming from, to see what
temperature it is and how muchwe're getting at what time of
the year, and we're competingagainst other people.
We're right, in the summer, whenit's really hot, we want those
(14:13):
flows for the salmon to cooldown, but then that's also
probably when, like, for example, our egg, needs the most water,
and so there's those complexrelationships.
And then when you have a salmonin these hot water conditions
for too long, there is apossibility for spread of
disease such as ick.
(14:33):
And then there's also C shasta,which is another parasite that
can spread between the salmon.
So, like, salmon will gather inthese big pods and when they're
waiting it can spread from oneto another really quickly.
Degraded salmon habitat too, solike in streams were, and this
(14:55):
is where I think a lot morefunding should go to.
I'm I'm biased because my jobis partially restoration
engineering, where I do this, um, but you know, putting money
towards making sure the salmonhabitats and the streams and
connecting rivers is good forthe young and the gravel can
grow.
The gravel and the young salmoncan grow up there and a lot of
nuanced causes for the declinein salmon population.
Steve Taylor (15:32):
But would it be fair to say that dams overall
are a bad thing for the salmonpopulation?
I'd say, if I was making asweeping generalization yes, so
you mentioned 2002, a hugehistoric salmon kill, and I have
a feeling that that wasinfluential in your life.
(15:55):
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat, what it was like to see
that and what it was?
Brook Thompson (16:02):
Yeah, I mean for me me personally it's probably
the most influential part of mylife because it's the reason I'm
where I am now.
But in September 2002 it was aday after one of my tribe's
world renewal ceremonies.
So my tribe a lot of times whenwe have ceremonies and pray,
(16:23):
we're not just praying forourselves but praying for
balance in the world.
And I remember the morningafter this you're told that
there's something going on andthat we need to check out the
river because all of thesesalmon are dying.
And so I'm with my mom and mydad and I'm seven years old at
this point, so, right, I'm onlyhip high and we go out and look
(16:46):
at the river and there's justthousands and thousands of
salmon lining the shoreline,dead, rotting, and it's just.
It feels like looking at like abattlefield or something where
(17:06):
you see all these bodies of notonly like again, salmon for
sport.
But these connections I had tomy ancestors since there's all
these ancestors I've never metbut managed to salmon so I could
live a healthy life cycle andhave a healthy childhood and my
connection to them was partiallythrough these salmon, where I
(17:29):
was then being almost fed by myancestors in an indirect way and
those salmon ancestors knew myancestors right.
We're all from the same placeand that was just gone in one
night and gone because of policydecisions and decisions around
(17:50):
taking water out in a droughtyear from people who've never
met me, people who've neverfished on the Klamath, people
who don't know our culture orour life cycle or any, and
people who, frankly, disregardedwhat scientists were saying at
the time and yet they uprootedmy way of life just through a
(18:12):
few days of bad policy.
And understanding that feelingand that anxiety that comes
after that, because it's notonly that one year.
Once you see something likethat, you're afraid it's going
to happen every single year.
And you see even kids who neverexperienced that and weren't
alive then still get anxietyabout fish kills.
(18:34):
So you see that like anxietypassed on to future generations
where we've never had anythinglike that happen in our history.
And I asked my mom what kind ofabout some of my reactions and
stuff at this time andapparently what I told her is to
get out her camera and takepictures because I need the rest
(18:55):
of the world to see what'sgoing on, which is kind of
interesting because I neverthought that's something I said
at the time, but I also was umoccasionally in like Portland,
oregon, in the city, andunderstood that like a lot of
people don't understand and Imean this is one of the great
things about like the podcast ishopefully you can just even get
(19:18):
a sliver of sense of what it'slike for me seeing these
connections to my ancestors diein front of me and knowing
that's way more than you knowsports, fishing or whatnot.
This is about life and death ofmy culture, my people.
But yeah, so that led me tostudying engineering, which led
(19:41):
me to go into water resourceengineering, which is like a
subsection of civil, andstudying politics, being an
intern in the Senate committeeon Indian affairs in DC and
going into this PhD, and justlike every single thing I've had
to do since then has beenfocused on making sure that
doesn't happen again.
And now it's more so focused onhow not only how do we make
(20:07):
sure this doesn't happen for mytribe again, but how can other
tribes and other places in theworld because I've recently been
going to the United Nationsclimate conferences, cop
understand these impacts andstop them from starting in the
first place?
Steve Taylor (20:23):
Well, thank you for sharing that.
I've heard you say in otherinterviews that salmon in a way
can be seen for you and yourtribe as the future.
There's an identity there.
You could even think of it asbeing associated with teachers
or hope.
So there's a lot more going onthere than what you referred to
as sport.
Fishing and such a giant salmonkill I'm sure was very
(20:48):
difficult to see as a child andthat led you on an educational
adventure.
Let's say You've been veryaccomplished.
You have a degree from Stanfordin civil engineering, a
master's, a master's degree fromStanford in civil engineering,
and you're studying nowenvironmental engineering in a
(21:11):
PhD program at University ofCalifornia, santa Cruz.
Is that correct?
Brook Thompson (21:16):
My master's at Stanford is in environmental
engineering, with a focus onwater resources and hydrology,
and then my PhD is inenvironmental studies at UC
Santa Cruz, with focusing onsalmon nutrition between spring
and fall salmon in the KlamathRiver, also looking at
genotyping their DNA to see thedifferences between how salmon
(21:37):
are deciding to come up, as wellas making a guidebook on how
non-tribal entities can workwith tribes for restoration
projects to be more successful,and then, finally, on how to
better integrate indigenousknowledge into California water
policy through interviews withwater policy making agencies and
tribes from different waterregions in California.
Steve Taylor (21:59):
Wow, that's amazing.
How do you see your academictrack as something that will
help you address these culturalissues or these issues regarding
the salmon.
Brook Thompson (22:20):
There's so many things I didn't know about
academia before going in.
It's almost just as much of astruggle being in academia and
trying to be heard as there'slike not that many indigenous
women in academia Like I cantell you right now.
And just to be legitimized inthose fields has been rough, and
(22:41):
people understanding that likeI'm not just giving a free pass
to college because I'm NativeAmerican, like there's a lot of
people that don't understand,like Native Americans just don't
get like to go to any collegefor free in the US, and so I've
faced a lot of discriminationaround that.
But the main thing is beinglegitimized.
I mean, not only am I learningmore, that's giving context to
(23:07):
my own culture and understandingof how the salmon and river
work, but honestly I feel like alot of what I say are things
that people in my tribe sayevery day.
They just don't get listened toas much because they don't have
these fancy letters behindtheir name or didn't go to
prestigious schools likeStanford, and so it's kind of
been a strategic move on my partto be like, hey, I'm going to
(23:31):
go through all this academia andsee how this Western science
lines up with my worldview andmy understanding of the culture
and being this kind of comingtogether of two worlds and, at
the end of the day, just, youknow, trying to be the best
interpreter I can for my peopleand what our understanding is of
(23:52):
the world and what's happeningto us, versus all these people
who use these really big words.
I've been studying law andengineering and we love big
words and acronyms, and tryingto translate those two is, I
think, where I'm finding myspecialty.
Steve Taylor (24:08):
But yeah, it's just two worlds that don't align
very much when you're outsideof academia, academic or
policymaking spaces uh and beenable to uh share um your
cultural perspective when itcomes to policies regarding
(24:31):
rivers.
Brook Thompson (24:32):
Yeah, I mean, I sure hope so.
I was an intern for SaveCalifornia Salmon and they do a
really good job at gettingpeople to hearing, so one of the
ones that stick out for me iswith um Game is at CDFW,
california Department of Fishand Wildlife California
Department of Fish and Wildlifeagain acronyms where there is a
(24:55):
meeting from a crew petition toclassify the spring salmon as
separate from the fall salmon inthe Klamath River, and this is
one thing that kind of kickedoff my PhD.
Fall salmon in the KlamathRiver and this is one thing that
kind of kicked off my PhD.
And in that there was initiallynot that many people going to
the hearings to make comments.
But one of the things I do knowthat's outside of academia is
(25:20):
in the language in the Yurok andin Karuk there's two separate
words for spring and fall salmon, and so I was trying to get
people from the tribes to go tothe hearing and comment on this
as backing up the geneticinformation that the petition
was based on.
Because for me that's kind ofthe sweet spot is you have this
hard data that tells you insightin the world and then you have
(25:41):
this cultural data fromthousands of years of insight
and observation that could backthis up, to be more legitimate
when you have missing parts inthe hard data.
And so we went to that and gaveour testimony and I think there
was like 20 plus people whocame, so that was a really good
(26:02):
turnout and thankfully it passed, and so that was really
exciting.
But on the flip side of that,there was a comment made that,
because it wasn't specificallylaid out in what was allowed in
decision making, that indigenousknowledge cannot necessarily be
taken into consideration justby how that policy, how their
decision making procedure, worksout, and so for.
(26:24):
For me, I was like, okay, thisis something that could be
beneficial to everyone to haveextra data and extra
understanding and context whenmaking these decisions.
And if this is just you know,there wasn't any indigenous
peoples when writing thesepolicies, probably at the start.
So I will want to see where inCalifornia policy decisions with
(26:46):
around water, there's theseholes that could be have
decisions better be made withindigenous input, where that is
where it's missing and where itcan be in the future, and so
hence, like my PhD, but otherthan that I I feel like I'm just
like a smaller part in thebigger picture.
(27:07):
Right, it's all about communityand not one person protesting
or making decisions or pushing.
It's about everyone togethersupporting each other in our
collective voice.
That really makes differences.
Steve Taylor (27:18):
You brought your expertise to COP27 in Egypt.
Tell us what you did there.
Brook Thompson (27:24):
I went with a delegation, with my tribe, where
we one.
It was a lot of meeting otherpeople from different parts of
the world but had similar issues, like I talked on panels and
gave my perspectives on dams andhydropower with other countries
from Africa and South Americaand Europe who were also having
the rivers dammed and hydropower, with other countries from
(27:45):
Africa and South America andEurope who are also having the
rivers dammed and seeingenvironmental impacts from them.
But for me, one of the biggestthings that stood out is the
countries that aren't currentlyfacing the impact from dams but
are going to see the impactsfrom dams Because dams and
hydroelectric is consideredrenewable energy and all these
(28:06):
countries have this renewableenergy goal they're trying to
reach and one way to do that isthrough hydroelectric and I feel
like hydroelectric is reallybeing pushed right now as
renewable energy and maybebecause of the urgency of
climate change, et cetera, someof the decisions around the
(28:29):
engineering for it is not takingenough consideration to
Indigenous peoples.
For me and you'll see this timeand time again where a project
can be built in a differentplace that will have impacts on
a larger population or not evennecessarily a larger population,
but a non-Indigenous population, let's say, and yet the project
(28:52):
keeps getting built in anindigenous area and hurts that
local tribe, and maybe doesn'teven consider anything like fish
ladders, like these smallthings that can be improved with
a little more design, time andmoney, but just get skipped over
for the sake of getting theproject done under budget on
time, et cetera.
And to me that's ridiculous,because we really, we all need
indigenous leadership in thetime of climate change, since
(29:14):
indigenous peoples are the oneswho learned how to live
sustainably since timeimmemorial and we're really not
the ones that put ourselves inthe situation worldwide.
And yet I think we have a lot oftools that can help us get us
out of the current situation,put ourselves in this situation
worldwide, and yet I think wehave a lot of tools that can
help us get us out of thecurrent situation we're in.
But if we're continuing to hurtindigenous populations with
these renewable energy projects,then how are we going to help
(29:36):
be climate leaders when we'retrying to survive on a daily
basis from the effects of largercorporations who are doing this
?
And it's going to be largercorporations who get money to
put these in who then continueto profit, and we're just going
to keep perpetuating the thingthat's been going wrong the last
few hundred years, instead ofchanging our tactics and doing
(29:57):
what has been proven to workversus continuing our old games.
You know it's so, that's.
That's a lot of.
What going to the nine nationswas for me is understanding not
only the impact dams have hadpreviously and water, but also
where the future is going andconcerns of how we can make that
(30:17):
better versus some fall pointsthat I'm seeing us move towards
to as a global community.
Steve Taylor (30:23):
Well, and I've interviewed other people who
have been a party to UNconferences and the COP process
and I think there's a consistentcriticism that indigenous
voices aren't heard, thatthere's.
Actually, some of the solutionsbeing proposed have a
(30:44):
disproportionate amount ofimpact on indigenous communities
, negative ones, and it's sortof like you know, these
indigenous communities are leastresponsible for climate change,
yet they're having to absorb alot of the onus of trying to
correct it.
Yeah, exactly, I mean kind ofwhat I was saying.
Brook Thompson (31:03):
Indigenous peoples protect around 80% of
the onus of trying to correct it.
Yeah, exactly I mean kind ofwhat I was saying.
Indigenous peoples protectaround 80% of the earth's
biodiversity and yeah, at theuniversity that's like all
anyone in my program inenvironmental studies is trying
to do is protect environmentaldiversity or in conservation.
And I'm just like why maybeI'll get in trouble for saying
(31:26):
this so like, at some level,like you know high up, why do
people who don't have connectionto the land and those places
but have the ability to go toschool and university and know
how have to be the onesresearching these areas, versus
giving these local communitieswho've been doing it forever and
(31:47):
have this big relationshipwhere it's not going to be like
a five-year PhD but it's goingto be their entire lives, and
give them the resources tocontinue protecting what they
have been already?
And again, it's just so hardbecause I know so many people
who would be so good in thesepositions and have these great
conversations.
(32:07):
But even simple things like nothaving a passport, it's not
like that's something that'sdescribed to us how to get or
why that's important, like inthe tribe, and it's so simple
barriers that make it reallydifficult to have these larger
conversations.
But for me, like I've traveledto, I think, 14 plus countries
now and so much of what I'veseen, what I've gone through
(32:29):
personally, I've seen in othercountries with the indigenous
communities, with therepercussions of colonization,
and I I just want to be a partof the solution and I want
indigenous people to be a partof the solution, since we know
how, and it's just this historyof colonization and being
othered and not having power andinfluence through money and
(32:50):
companies, because nativebusinesses have like almost like
.
I think it's like well, it'ssomething ridiculous.
It's a very small percentage ofall corporate businesses and
I've seen tribes, like in NorthDakota area, try to start up
like windmill company or what'sit called, wind turbine
companies, et cetera, since theyhave land that's beneficial for
(33:11):
it, and all of these structuralbarriers are coming across that
other companies wouldn'tnecessarily have.
And I just wish we werelistened to more.
I feel like we're kind oftreated like kids at some level
in the international stage, whenI feel like we should be more
so treated like elders and theones who've been doing things
(33:32):
the right way, in a sense.
Steve Taylor (33:34):
Let me ask you this how about micro plastics
and fish?
What are we eating when we eatfish nowadays?
Brook Thompson (33:41):
Oh, man, that's.
I have a lot of perspectives onit.
I'll give a disclaimer thatthat's technically out of my
wheelhouse.
So take everything I say with agrain of.
That's technically out of mywheelhouse.
So take everything I say with agrain of salt.
Steve Taylor (33:52):
But or a grain of plastic.
Brook Thompson (33:54):
Yeah, a grain of plastic.
The Monterey Bay Aquarium isdoing a lot of work on that.
So if you're in California, Irecommend stopping there because
they have a lot of greatinformation.
And that was something I wasconsidering doing actually for
part of my research, but I thinkI'm going to postpone on it
because plastic is so recentthat we're really starting just
(34:16):
starting to understand theeffects on human health, and so
for me I don't want to get toodeep into it until I really
understand the repercussions ofit, because it's one thing to
know how much we're eating andhow much stays in our body, but
it's another thing to know thelong-term effects, and we just
don't have that informationcompletely yet.
But there there is evidence thatthere is plastic microplastics
(34:42):
that stay in salmon meat and indifferent parts of the salmon.
So there's evidence thatmicroplastics and fish also
accumulate in different parts ofanimals.
So, for example, some fish, itcan accumulate more in the eyes
tissue, for example.
And if you're a community thateats fish eyes like in my tribe,
(35:02):
where we do occasionally, Isometimes I get scared to eat
the fish eyes.
My grandpa always said too, butlike scary looking.
Um, you know, are certaincommunities like indigenous
peoples who are eating more ofthese fish can ingesting more of
these plastics.
And there's this really goodbook I recommend that's called
pollution is colonialism andthat book specifically goes
(35:27):
about microplastics andindigenous communities and maybe
that's the one you can find tointerview in the future.
But talking about how we'vepretty much given okay on
pollution to a certain amount,right, we have these levels we
created where it's like you canpollute up to this amount and
without long-term effects.
(35:47):
And then companies have kind oftaken that as like, okay,
pollute to this amount, don'tcare about anything else before
that.
But with plastics there's notreally like a safe level to
pollute to.
It should be zero, thereshouldn't have plastics in the
environment at all.
And yet we have this mindset ofthere's a certain amount,
that's okay.
And it's interesting how ourconceptual understanding of
(36:12):
plastics or what's okay withpollution affects our
legislation and how we prettymuch maintain these lifestyles.
But it's that we're eating it.
You probably don't know you'reeating it and we don't know how
(36:32):
it's going to affect us longterm yet.
So we're all part of a funscience experiment that we'll
see what happens.
Steve Taylor (36:37):
How do you think the indigenous perspective could
influence policymaking, orshould influence policymaking?
Brook Thompson (36:44):
Yeah.
So for I mean for me againcan't talk for all indigenous
peoples and not even my tribe, Ican only speak for myself.
But I think if there's moreindigenous perspectives and
policy, that we'd be a lotbetter off long term.
Again one because of, like alonger term mindset for example,
seven generations, and if wehad to consider what all our
(37:04):
policy decisions had impacts onseven generations ahead of us, I
think some of our decisionswould be different currently, in
addition to having valuinglarger perspectives, so valuing
perspectives of not only eldersbut kids and people who are
two-spirit, so people who arepart of the LGBTQ plus community
(37:24):
and have different abilities,so like disabled community
members in the legislationprocess as well.
So if we heard from all theiropinions and weighted them
equally, and not just that we'regiving a seat where they'll be
heard and then we may or may notconsider it, that would also
influence how policy is made andbe more equitable, because it
would be more representative ofthe general population and take
(37:47):
into account these populationsthat are often harmed the most
and considered the least whenpolicy is being made, especially
with our current demographic,which is right.
Everyone knows it's like mainlyold dudes in legislation, but
especially at the federal level.
So, yeah, just like even thosesimple things and you know,
(38:09):
taking into consideration theplants and animals, and even
like rocks in my culture, havingpersonhood or spirituality and
the right to be here as well,and those perspectives don't
only protect those beings, theyalso protect ourselves because,
right, when the salmon do well,for example, we do well, and
when we do poorly, also thesalmon do poorly, it both ways
(38:32):
and we act like that's not howit is because of technological
advances that help us displacethese costs that still have
costs on other groups and peoplein long term.
But my short answer is it wouldbe better.
There needs to be moreindigenous representation and
indigenous perspective inlegislation.
Steve Taylor (38:54):
If there's a young indigenous person out there
considering the path you havetaken in academia, would you
recommend it?
What would you say?
Brook Thompson (39:13):
oh man, like I'd say, I recommend it.
But I would say, make sure youhave a good community because,
again, it's, it's not going tobe one person who makes the
difference in the future.
It's going to be all of ussupporting each other.
Right?
I can't take on every singlewater policy, like specific law,
etc.
In california and be like, okay, I have all the answers.
I did the research, here's whatwe got to do.
No, it's, I'm gonna probablyhave a good understanding of a
few things, but I'm going toneed a lot more people to have
(39:34):
that understanding of everythingthat I can't look at, cause I'm
only one person, and what'sgoing to happen is I am going to
want to need to like supportthose people and I'm going to
need their support as well, andthat can be as simple as like
making each other dinner or justhaving time to relax and talk
about our culture, do beadworktogether.
(39:55):
So I'd recommend it.
It's definitely a lot harderthan I thought it would be, but
as long as you have people whocan stand up for you, people who
can have your back and supportyou when you need it the most,
then it's worth it, and I hopeto be one of those people at the
moment.
So, but I I really hope there'llbe much more in the future.
(40:17):
And so again, do it.
These institutions and placesare lucky to have you.
You're not like it's not justthat you're lucky to be there.
They're lucky to have you thereand know that.
You know people like me willhopefully be a little bit
further along trying to help youout when you get to my place.
Steve Taylor (40:35):
For those who want to know more about your career
or how they can help in thecause.
Where can they find out more?
Brook Thompson (40:42):
Yeah.
So to find out more and to keephearing updates, please follow
me at Brooke M Thompson on TikTOK or Brooke, underscore M.
Underscore Thompson that's B RO O K.
Underscore M as in Morgan.
Underscore T H O M P S O N onInstagram.
Or, if you want to help out mepersonally, you can buy a salmon
(41:03):
or lamb prey stuffed animalthat I've designed and make
myself, and so on ThompsonThompsonTeachingscom, where you
can learn more aboutconservation of salmon and lamb
prey.
5% of my net profits of thesalmon stuffed animal goes to
Save California Salmon Lamb PreyConservancy anywhere that helps
out with conserving theseanimals.
And also, you know you can justspread the information through
(41:27):
those ways.
But whether you follow me ornot, hopefully we'll cross paths
sometimes in the future andI'll in the future, have a
better understanding ofeverything that's going on with
water policy in California andwe'll be making those strides
together to make it bettertomorrow.
Steve Taylor (41:45):
Brooke Thompson.
Thank you for joining us atBreaking Green.
Brook Thompson (41:48):
Yeah, thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Steve Taylor (41:51):
You have been listening to Breaking Green, a
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(42:12):
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That's 17162574187.
Welcome to Breaking Green, a podcast by
Global Justice Ecology Project.
On Breaking Green, we will talkwith activists and experts to
examine the intertwined issuesof social, ecological and
economic injustice.
We will also explore some ofthe more outrageous proposals to
address climate andenvironmental crises that are
(00:22):
falsely being sold as green.
I am your host, steve Taylor.
Most of the Earth'sbiodiversity is on lands managed
by indigenous peoples, but whatrole are indigenous voices
being allowed to play in majorenvironmental decisions?
On this episode of BreakingGreen, we will talk with Brooke
Thompson, a Yurok and KarukNative American from Northern
(00:45):
California.
She is a PhD student at theUniversity of California, santa
Cruz, and works as a restorationengineer for the Yurok tribe.
In 2022, brooke Thompsongraduated with a Master's of
Science at Stanford Universityin Environmental Engineering,
with a focus on water resourceand hydrology.
(01:05):
In 2020, brooke Thompsonreceived a Bachelor's of Science
from Portland StateUniversity's Honors College,
with a degree in civilengineering.
She is a recipient of the GatesMillennium Scholar Award 2020,
unity's 25 Under 25 recipient, aDennis Washington Scholar,
american Indian GraduateCenter's 2017 Undergraduate
(01:28):
Student of the Year and anAmerican Indian Society of
Science and Engineering SequoiaFellow.
Brooke Thompson, welcome toBreaking Green.
Brook Thompson (01:39):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Steve Taylor (01:42):
Well, Brook, there's so much to talk about
when it comes to you.
You work as a restorationengineer.
We'd like to talk to you aboutyour educational journey, your
current PhD work, politicalactivism and more point to start
(02:11):
is growing up on the KlamathRiver as a member of the Yurok
and Karuk tribe and what itmeant to live alongside the
salmon.
Brook Thompson (02:15):
Yeah.
So for me just to kind of getan idea of where I grew up, the
Klamath River is kind of cool,so I'm always wearing like one
of my sweatshirts down there,probably a pair of jeans as a
kid, but it's real rocky on theshoreline, with a big beach at
(02:36):
the mouth of the Klamath River.
So the mouth is where theKlamath meets the Pacific Ocean
and that's where my tribe, orwhere I lived on my tribal lands
, and so my family has beenliving in that area for time
immemorial, so at a minimum15,000 plus years, and we're
(02:58):
surrounded by mountains andredwood trees.
So you know, as a kid growingup in Northern California, to me
redwood trees are like thenormal size trees.
So when I go other places everyother tree looks kind of small
to me because I'm used to treestowering overhead.
But with that, most of my timewas spent on the river in a boat
(03:24):
growing up, especially in thesummertime with my dad, and we
would live alongside the riverand sometimes either camp out
for what felt like weeks tocatch salmon.
So you know how some kids likewinter or spring, summer breaks
(03:45):
revolved around I don't knowwhat other kids did actually,
but I assume like going to campsor whatnot, but my summer was
always filled with salmonfishing and that's how they'd
even make money to get schoolclothes and school supplies for
the coming year.
So it would be getting in aprobably don't know like a
(04:06):
10-foot boat, like one of thosedrift boats that is made out of
aluminum with a 25 horsepowerengine on the back and oars that
I got really good arms when Iwas younger from paddling around
and we would set nets.
So we have these drift netswhere it's like this plastic
(04:29):
netting um, with a bunch of whatare they called Diamonds, and
what happens is the salmon willswim, try to swim through the
net and they won't be able tosee it and their gills will get
caught in the net.
And then when you do that, yousee these buoys start to Bob up
and down and then you yell fishon and then you get in the net.
And then, when you do that, yousee these buoys start to bob up
and down and then you yell fishon and then you get in the boat,
paddle as fast as you can andthen race to the bottom of the
(04:53):
net, which can be as deep asabout 50 feet, and then you pull
in the salmon.
But since I'm kind of small I'monly five, two now, so I was
obviously I'm like the same sizeof the salmon as a kid.
So you just kind of like hug itwith your whole body like
you're a wrestler doing like, uh, doing a finishing move, and
then you lean back in the boatand then tug it in and fight the
(05:15):
salmon and bring it in the boatand pop the gill so all the
blood bleeds out and it dies andyou spend, spend, I don't know
10, 12 hours doing that everysingle day from spring to fall.
But yeah, that was, that wasthe majority of my childhood is
spending that time on the riverwith my family.
Steve Taylor (05:36):
It sounds like you spend a lot of time there
personally, but in general, whatis the cultural significance of
salmon to the tribe?
Brook Thompson (05:50):
So it's hard to summarize that completely
because it's, in a sense, it'severything.
So for us, traditionally, in astudy that was done on the group
people in 2005, it showed thatwe ate around 450 pounds of
salmon per person per yeartraditionally and that number in
(06:11):
2005 was down to five poundsper person per year.
And keeping in mind in 2005, Iwas still catching a significant
amount of fish each day.
It wasn't as much as mygrandfather's time.
Like my grandfather talkedabout a time where there's so
many salmon, you could walkacross the box to the other side
of the Klamath, but we werecatching enough to get by, and
(06:35):
so I'm sure that's part of whatI'm doing with my research right
now.
I'm sure that number is much,much lower because I haven't
caught a salmon in two years nowpersonally.
And fall salmon fishing wascompletely shut down this fall
this year on the Klamath, whereeven our salmon festival had no
salmon at it.
But in addition to how muchnutrients?
(06:56):
Because salmon have this greatamount of protein, of fats, of
healthy oils and vitamins andnutrients that really helped
with our survival and growth.
But on top of that, in havingit for ceremony and
understanding managementtechniques to keep salmon
plentiful for years to come.
(07:17):
There's these small culturalthings that come with a salmon,
like one of my uncles.
He talks about his grandmasaying that the best salmon
you'll ever have is the one thatyou never eat.
And that's because when youcatch a salmon and there's
(07:37):
someone else in need, like anelder or someone who's disabled
and can't fish themselves, yougive that fish to that person.
And so she was saying that ifyou catch the fish but you give
it to someone who needs it more,you'll get that fuller feeling
in your spirit and your soul,even if you're not eating it
yourself.
And it's like how do you passdown these values of the culture
(08:02):
and these traditions andunderstanding if you don't have
that salmon to give away in thefirst place?
Steve Taylor (08:09):
And then also, I think I've heard you say in
other interviews that there's afood desert Without the salmon.
When it comes to processedfoods, there's really a food
desert where you live.
Brook Thompson (08:23):
Yeah.
So a food desert being it'shard to get any type of food
that we're not hunting orcatching ourselves in the area.
So to and where I grew up inKlamath, california, along the
mouth of the river and I thinkthis is true for most of the
reservation you either have todrive at least right now it's
(08:44):
about an hour and a half roundtrip up north to Crescent city
to get to the nearest grocerystore, or you have to go a four
plus hour round trip down Southto Eureka Arcata area to get to
the nearest grocery store.
And right, that's contingent onother things too, that's if you
have a working car.
And that's also likeconsidering gas, like the gas
(09:06):
prices are so wild now, like Idon't know if I'd be able to
afford that when we were kids.
Like to be able to make thattrip.
So, because those things costmoney and time, because, right,
that time you're going back andforth, it's also time you're not
working, we, you want to makethe most out of that trip and
you only have so much money.
You want to make the most outof that trip and you only have
(09:27):
so much money.
So to do that, you usually haveto buy cheaper foods or foods
that have a longer shelf lifeand cheap foods that have a long
shelf life tend not to be thehealthiest foods, especially
compared to salmon, and myfamily wouldn't be able to
afford the same salmon qualitythat we caught.
So think about like.
Every day I got to eat salmon,like salmon on sticks, smoked
(09:48):
salmon that we call salmon candy, that we eat over the winter.
This is our natural way topreserve it Salmon patties by
scraping off the ribs of thesalmon, which I don't I don't
even think that's.
I don't know what producers dowith like those other parts of
the salmon, but like even salmonstew from like the tail and the
head.
You can eat the eyeballs andeat the cheeks, I like the skin,
(10:08):
et cetera, and you got all thisnutrients.
So I'm also studying nutrientsin salmon as part of my PhD, but
it we sold the salmon for about$5 per pound to middlemen when
I was a kid, sold the salmon forabout $5 per pound to middlemen
(10:29):
when I was a kid, and that samesalmon I've seen sold in
grocery stores for around $35 apound, and so there's no way we
can afford the same salmon we'reable to sell and so, like it's
not, it's not even a matter oflike getting that food, it's.
It just feels so insane to methat we can sell something
that's so valuable to us socheaply but then also not be
(10:49):
able to get it back in our timeof need, if that makes sense.
Steve Taylor (10:53):
It does, and I think what's really important
here is that the salmon not onlyhave cultural significance, but
the lack of it, it has realeconomic and health consequences
.
Brook Thompson (11:06):
Yeah, I mean exactly Because there's all
these unaccounted effects wherehaving this poor food because
living in a food desert and notbeing able to get this
nutritious food that we just gotnaturally it was all around us
initially Then you have higherblood pressure rates, you have
obesity, you have heart disease,you have all these
(11:30):
cardiovascular diseases thatthen have a cost associated with
it as well, and real life ordeath, I mean I think that's the
thing for me at the end of theday is like this isn't just a
struggle for salmon or wantingto fish for salmon.
This is a struggle for the lifeof death of our culture and the
life to death of our people,because not having that
(11:54):
nutritious food has real impacton our life and quality of life.
Steve Taylor (12:00):
So what has caused that?
What has caused the decline ofthe salmon?
Brook Thompson (12:11):
I wish again.
There's not going to be astraight answer to any of these
things, but well, a bit of.
It's like a death from athousand paper cuts, in the
sense that there's a lot goingon here, but some of it has been
through the damming of theKlamath River which, after 20
years of struggle and and afteryou know myself witnessing the
largest salmon kill in WestCoast history in 2002 on the
Klamath, where over 60,000salmon died, we're now having
(12:35):
four of the six dams removed onthe Klamath River, which is huge
.
So those dams did not have fishladders on it, so it it was
cutting off hundreds of miles ofsalmon habitat, and a lot of
that salmon habitat were thespring salmon's habitat.
So we're having that removedand that will be a big deal for
(13:01):
having new habitat opened up forthe salmon and also having more
flows of soil, because havingpeople think about like the
water flowing back and forth inthe water cycle, but there's
also a cycle with the sediment,so like soils, because soils
carry nutrients in it that canbe beneficial to fish and other
creatures and plants downstream,so that soil cycle and flow of
(13:25):
nutrients will be more restoredas well.
But there's also water flows.
So having enough water, enoughcool water when the salmon need
it, because a salmon, you know,they're not just going up there
blindly, they make decisions onwhen they go up river to spawn
or when they go out.
And we can control part of that, because now it's not natural.
(13:49):
Now, right, we're controllingwhen the flows happen and
there's a lot of people fightingover the flows of water.
So I think that's where it getsthe most complex, because,
again, it's where the water iscoming from, to see what
temperature it is and how muchwe're getting at what time of
the year, and we're competingagainst other people.
We're right, in the summer, whenit's really hot, we want those
(14:13):
flows for the salmon to cooldown, but then that's also
probably when, like, for example, our egg, needs the most water,
and so there's those complexrelationships.
And then when you have a salmonin these hot water conditions
for too long, there is apossibility for spread of
disease such as ick.
(14:33):
And then there's also C shasta,which is another parasite that
can spread between the salmon.
So, like, salmon will gather inthese big pods and when they're
waiting it can spread from oneto another really quickly.
Degraded salmon habitat too, solike in streams were, and this
(14:55):
is where I think a lot morefunding should go to.
I'm I'm biased because my jobis partially restoration
engineering, where I do this, um, but you know, putting money
towards making sure the salmonhabitats and the streams and
connecting rivers is good forthe young and the gravel can
grow.
The gravel and the young salmoncan grow up there and a lot of
nuanced causes for the declinein salmon population.
Steve Taylor (15:32):
But would it be fair to say that dams overall
are a bad thing for the salmonpopulation?
I'd say, if I was making asweeping generalization yes, so
you mentioned 2002, a hugehistoric salmon kill, and I have
a feeling that that wasinfluential in your life.
(15:55):
Can you tell us a bit aboutthat, what it was like to see
that and what it was?
Brook Thompson (16:02):
Yeah, I mean for me me personally it's probably
the most influential part of mylife because it's the reason I'm
where I am now.
But in September 2002 it was aday after one of my tribe's
world renewal ceremonies.
So my tribe a lot of times whenwe have ceremonies and pray,
(16:23):
we're not just praying forourselves but praying for
balance in the world.
And I remember the morningafter this you're told that
there's something going on andthat we need to check out the
river because all of thesesalmon are dying.
And so I'm with my mom and mydad and I'm seven years old at
this point, so, right, I'm onlyhip high and we go out and look
(16:46):
at the river and there's justthousands and thousands of
salmon lining the shoreline,dead, rotting, and it's just.
It feels like looking at like abattlefield or something where
(17:06):
you see all these bodies of notonly like again, salmon for
sport.
But these connections I had tomy ancestors since there's all
these ancestors I've never metbut managed to salmon so I could
live a healthy life cycle andhave a healthy childhood and my
connection to them was partiallythrough these salmon, where I
(17:29):
was then being almost fed by myancestors in an indirect way and
those salmon ancestors knew myancestors right.
We're all from the same placeand that was just gone in one
night and gone because of policydecisions and decisions around
(17:50):
taking water out in a droughtyear from people who've never
met me, people who've neverfished on the Klamath, people
who don't know our culture orour life cycle or any, and
people who, frankly, disregardedwhat scientists were saying at
the time and yet they uprootedmy way of life just through a
(18:12):
few days of bad policy.
And understanding that feelingand that anxiety that comes
after that, because it's notonly that one year.
Once you see something likethat, you're afraid it's going
to happen every single year.
And you see even kids who neverexperienced that and weren't
alive then still get anxietyabout fish kills.
(18:34):
So you see that like anxietypassed on to future generations
where we've never had anythinglike that happen in our history.
And I asked my mom what kind ofabout some of my reactions and
stuff at this time andapparently what I told her is to
get out her camera and takepictures because I need the rest
(18:55):
of the world to see what'sgoing on, which is kind of
interesting because I neverthought that's something I said
at the time, but I also was umoccasionally in like Portland,
oregon, in the city, andunderstood that like a lot of
people don't understand and Imean this is one of the great
things about like the podcast ishopefully you can just even get
(19:18):
a sliver of sense of what it'slike for me seeing these
connections to my ancestors diein front of me and knowing
that's way more than you knowsports, fishing or whatnot.
This is about life and death ofmy culture, my people.
But yeah, so that led me tostudying engineering, which led
(19:41):
me to go into water resourceengineering, which is like a
subsection of civil, andstudying politics, being an
intern in the Senate committeeon Indian affairs in DC and
going into this PhD, and justlike every single thing I've had
to do since then has beenfocused on making sure that
doesn't happen again.
And now it's more so focused onhow not only how do we make
(20:07):
sure this doesn't happen for mytribe again, but how can other
tribes and other places in theworld because I've recently been
going to the United Nationsclimate conferences, cop
understand these impacts andstop them from starting in the
first place?
Steve Taylor (20:23):
Well, thank you for sharing that.
I've heard you say in otherinterviews that salmon in a way
can be seen for you and yourtribe as the future.
There's an identity there.
You could even think of it asbeing associated with teachers
or hope.
So there's a lot more going onthere than what you referred to
as sport.
Fishing and such a giant salmonkill I'm sure was very
(20:48):
difficult to see as a child andthat led you on an educational
adventure.
Let's say You've been veryaccomplished.
You have a degree from Stanfordin civil engineering, a
master's, a master's degree fromStanford in civil engineering,
and you're studying nowenvironmental engineering in a
(21:11):
PhD program at University ofCalifornia, santa Cruz.
Is that correct?
Brook Thompson (21:16):
My master's at Stanford is in environmental
engineering, with a focus onwater resources and hydrology,
and then my PhD is inenvironmental studies at UC
Santa Cruz, with focusing onsalmon nutrition between spring
and fall salmon in the KlamathRiver, also looking at
genotyping their DNA to see thedifferences between how salmon
(21:37):
are deciding to come up, as wellas making a guidebook on how
non-tribal entities can workwith tribes for restoration
projects to be more successful,and then, finally, on how to
better integrate indigenousknowledge into California water
policy through interviews withwater policy making agencies and
tribes from different waterregions in California.
Steve Taylor (21:59):
Wow, that's amazing.
How do you see your academictrack as something that will
help you address these culturalissues or these issues regarding
the salmon.
Brook Thompson (22:20):
There's so many things I didn't know about
academia before going in.
It's almost just as much of astruggle being in academia and
trying to be heard as there'slike not that many indigenous
women in academia Like I cantell you right now.
And just to be legitimized inthose fields has been rough, and
(22:41):
people understanding that likeI'm not just giving a free pass
to college because I'm NativeAmerican, like there's a lot of
people that don't understand,like Native Americans just don't
get like to go to any collegefor free in the US, and so I've
faced a lot of discriminationaround that.
But the main thing is beinglegitimized.
I mean, not only am I learningmore, that's giving context to
(23:07):
my own culture and understandingof how the salmon and river
work, but honestly I feel like alot of what I say are things
that people in my tribe sayevery day.
They just don't get listened toas much because they don't have
these fancy letters behindtheir name or didn't go to
prestigious schools likeStanford, and so it's kind of
been a strategic move on my partto be like, hey, I'm going to
(23:31):
go through all this academia andsee how this Western science
lines up with my worldview andmy understanding of the culture
and being this kind of comingtogether of two worlds and, at
the end of the day, just, youknow, trying to be the best
interpreter I can for my peopleand what our understanding is of
(23:52):
the world and what's happeningto us, versus all these people
who use these really big words.
I've been studying law andengineering and we love big
words and acronyms, and tryingto translate those two is, I
think, where I'm finding myspecialty.
Steve Taylor (24:08):
But yeah, it's just two worlds that don't align
very much when you're outsideof academia, academic or
policymaking spaces uh and beenable to uh share um your
cultural perspective when itcomes to policies regarding
(24:31):
rivers.
Brook Thompson (24:32):
Yeah, I mean, I sure hope so.
I was an intern for SaveCalifornia Salmon and they do a
really good job at gettingpeople to hearing, so one of the
ones that stick out for me iswith um Game is at CDFW,
california Department of Fishand Wildlife California
Department of Fish and Wildlifeagain acronyms where there is a
(24:55):
meeting from a crew petition toclassify the spring salmon as
separate from the fall salmon inthe Klamath River, and this is
one thing that kind of kickedoff my PhD.
Fall salmon in the KlamathRiver and this is one thing that
kind of kicked off my PhD.
And in that there was initiallynot that many people going to
the hearings to make comments.
But one of the things I do knowthat's outside of academia is
(25:20):
in the language in the Yurok andin Karuk there's two separate
words for spring and fall salmon, and so I was trying to get
people from the tribes to go tothe hearing and comment on this
as backing up the geneticinformation that the petition
was based on.
Because for me that's kind ofthe sweet spot is you have this
hard data that tells you insightin the world and then you have
(25:41):
this cultural data fromthousands of years of insight
and observation that could backthis up, to be more legitimate
when you have missing parts inthe hard data.
And so we went to that and gaveour testimony and I think there
was like 20 plus people whocame, so that was a really good
(26:02):
turnout and thankfully it passed, and so that was really
exciting.
But on the flip side of that,there was a comment made that,
because it wasn't specificallylaid out in what was allowed in
decision making, that indigenousknowledge cannot necessarily be
taken into consideration justby how that policy, how their
decision making procedure, worksout, and so for.
(26:24):
For me, I was like, okay, thisis something that could be
beneficial to everyone to haveextra data and extra
understanding and context whenmaking these decisions.
And if this is just you know,there wasn't any indigenous
peoples when writing thesepolicies, probably at the start.
So I will want to see where inCalifornia policy decisions with
(26:46):
around water, there's theseholes that could be have
decisions better be made withindigenous input, where that is
where it's missing and where itcan be in the future, and so
hence, like my PhD, but otherthan that I I feel like I'm just
like a smaller part in thebigger picture.
(27:07):
Right, it's all about communityand not one person protesting
or making decisions or pushing.
It's about everyone togethersupporting each other in our
collective voice.
That really makes differences.
Steve Taylor (27:18):
You brought your expertise to COP27 in Egypt.
Tell us what you did there.
Brook Thompson (27:24):
I went with a delegation, with my tribe, where
we one.
It was a lot of meeting otherpeople from different parts of
the world but had similar issues, like I talked on panels and
gave my perspectives on dams andhydropower with other countries
from Africa and South Americaand Europe who were also having
the rivers dammed and hydropower, with other countries from
(27:45):
Africa and South America andEurope who are also having the
rivers dammed and seeingenvironmental impacts from them.
But for me, one of the biggestthings that stood out is the
countries that aren't currentlyfacing the impact from dams but
are going to see the impactsfrom dams Because dams and
hydroelectric is consideredrenewable energy and all these
(28:06):
countries have this renewableenergy goal they're trying to
reach and one way to do that isthrough hydroelectric and I feel
like hydroelectric is reallybeing pushed right now as
renewable energy and maybebecause of the urgency of
climate change, et cetera, someof the decisions around the
(28:29):
engineering for it is not takingenough consideration to
Indigenous peoples.
For me and you'll see this timeand time again where a project
can be built in a differentplace that will have impacts on
a larger population or not evennecessarily a larger population,
but a non-Indigenous population, let's say, and yet the project
(28:52):
keeps getting built in anindigenous area and hurts that
local tribe, and maybe doesn'teven consider anything like fish
ladders, like these smallthings that can be improved with
a little more design, time andmoney, but just get skipped over
for the sake of getting theproject done under budget on
time, et cetera.
And to me that's ridiculous,because we really, we all need
indigenous leadership in thetime of climate change, since
(29:14):
indigenous peoples are the oneswho learned how to live
sustainably since timeimmemorial and we're really not
the ones that put ourselves inthe situation worldwide.
And yet I think we have a lot oftools that can help us get us
out of the current situation,put ourselves in this situation
worldwide, and yet I think wehave a lot of tools that can
help us get us out of thecurrent situation we're in.
But if we're continuing to hurtindigenous populations with
these renewable energy projects,then how are we going to help
(29:36):
be climate leaders when we'retrying to survive on a daily
basis from the effects of largercorporations who are doing this
?
And it's going to be largercorporations who get money to
put these in who then continueto profit, and we're just going
to keep perpetuating the thingthat's been going wrong the last
few hundred years, instead ofchanging our tactics and doing
(29:57):
what has been proven to workversus continuing our old games.
You know it's so, that's.
That's a lot of.
What going to the nine nationswas for me is understanding not
only the impact dams have hadpreviously and water, but also
where the future is going andconcerns of how we can make that
(30:17):
better versus some fall pointsthat I'm seeing us move towards
to as a global community.
Steve Taylor (30:23):
Well, and I've interviewed other people who
have been a party to UNconferences and the COP process
and I think there's a consistentcriticism that indigenous
voices aren't heard, thatthere's.
Actually, some of the solutionsbeing proposed have a
(30:44):
disproportionate amount ofimpact on indigenous communities
, negative ones, and it's sortof like you know, these
indigenous communities are leastresponsible for climate change,
yet they're having to absorb alot of the onus of trying to
correct it.
Yeah, exactly, I mean kind ofwhat I was saying.
Brook Thompson (31:03):
Indigenous peoples protect around 80% of
the onus of trying to correct it.
Yeah, exactly I mean kind ofwhat I was saying.
Indigenous peoples protectaround 80% of the earth's
biodiversity and yeah, at theuniversity that's like all
anyone in my program inenvironmental studies is trying
to do is protect environmentaldiversity or in conservation.
And I'm just like why maybeI'll get in trouble for saying
(31:26):
this so like, at some level,like you know high up, why do
people who don't have connectionto the land and those places
but have the ability to go toschool and university and know
how have to be the onesresearching these areas, versus
giving these local communitieswho've been doing it forever and
(31:47):
have this big relationshipwhere it's not going to be like
a five-year PhD but it's goingto be their entire lives, and
give them the resources tocontinue protecting what they
have been already?
And again, it's just so hardbecause I know so many people
who would be so good in thesepositions and have these great
conversations.
(32:07):
But even simple things like nothaving a passport, it's not
like that's something that'sdescribed to us how to get or
why that's important, like inthe tribe, and it's so simple
barriers that make it reallydifficult to have these larger
conversations.
But for me, like I've traveledto, I think, 14 plus countries
now and so much of what I'veseen, what I've gone through
(32:29):
personally, I've seen in othercountries with the indigenous
communities, with therepercussions of colonization,
and I I just want to be a partof the solution and I want
indigenous people to be a partof the solution, since we know
how, and it's just this historyof colonization and being
othered and not having power andinfluence through money and
(32:50):
companies, because nativebusinesses have like almost like
.
I think it's like well, it'ssomething ridiculous.
It's a very small percentage ofall corporate businesses and
I've seen tribes, like in NorthDakota area, try to start up
like windmill company or what'sit called, wind turbine
companies, et cetera, since theyhave land that's beneficial for
(33:11):
it, and all of these structuralbarriers are coming across that
other companies wouldn'tnecessarily have.
And I just wish we werelistened to more.
I feel like we're kind oftreated like kids at some level
in the international stage, whenI feel like we should be more
so treated like elders and theones who've been doing things
(33:32):
the right way, in a sense.
Steve Taylor (33:34):
Let me ask you this how about micro plastics
and fish?
What are we eating when we eatfish nowadays?
Brook Thompson (33:41):
Oh, man, that's.
I have a lot of perspectives onit.
I'll give a disclaimer thatthat's technically out of my
wheelhouse.
So take everything I say with agrain of.
That's technically out of mywheelhouse.
So take everything I say with agrain of salt.
Steve Taylor (33:52):
But or a grain of plastic.
Brook Thompson (33:54):
Yeah, a grain of plastic.
The Monterey Bay Aquarium isdoing a lot of work on that.
So if you're in California, Irecommend stopping there because
they have a lot of greatinformation.
And that was something I wasconsidering doing actually for
part of my research, but I thinkI'm going to postpone on it
because plastic is so recentthat we're really starting just
(34:16):
starting to understand theeffects on human health, and so
for me I don't want to get toodeep into it until I really
understand the repercussions ofit, because it's one thing to
know how much we're eating andhow much stays in our body, but
it's another thing to know thelong-term effects, and we just
don't have that informationcompletely yet.
But there there is evidence thatthere is plastic microplastics
(34:42):
that stay in salmon meat and indifferent parts of the salmon.
So there's evidence thatmicroplastics and fish also
accumulate in different parts ofanimals.
So, for example, some fish, itcan accumulate more in the eyes
tissue, for example.
And if you're a community thateats fish eyes like in my tribe,
(35:02):
where we do occasionally, Isometimes I get scared to eat
the fish eyes.
My grandpa always said too, butlike scary looking.
Um, you know, are certaincommunities like indigenous
peoples who are eating more ofthese fish can ingesting more of
these plastics.
And there's this really goodbook I recommend that's called
pollution is colonialism andthat book specifically goes
(35:27):
about microplastics andindigenous communities and maybe
that's the one you can find tointerview in the future.
But talking about how we'vepretty much given okay on
pollution to a certain amount,right, we have these levels we
created where it's like you canpollute up to this amount and
without long-term effects.
(35:47):
And then companies have kind oftaken that as like, okay,
pollute to this amount, don'tcare about anything else before
that.
But with plastics there's notreally like a safe level to
pollute to.
It should be zero, thereshouldn't have plastics in the
environment at all.
And yet we have this mindset ofthere's a certain amount,
that's okay.
And it's interesting how ourconceptual understanding of
(36:12):
plastics or what's okay withpollution affects our
legislation and how we prettymuch maintain these lifestyles.
But it's that we're eating it.
You probably don't know you'reeating it and we don't know how
(36:32):
it's going to affect us longterm yet.
So we're all part of a funscience experiment that we'll
see what happens.
Steve Taylor (36:37):
How do you think the indigenous perspective could
influence policymaking, orshould influence policymaking?
Brook Thompson (36:44):
Yeah.
So for I mean for me againcan't talk for all indigenous
peoples and not even my tribe, Ican only speak for myself.
But I think if there's moreindigenous perspectives and
policy, that we'd be a lotbetter off long term.
Again one because of, like alonger term mindset for example,
seven generations, and if wehad to consider what all our
(37:04):
policy decisions had impacts onseven generations ahead of us, I
think some of our decisionswould be different currently, in
addition to having valuinglarger perspectives, so valuing
perspectives of not only eldersbut kids and people who are
two-spirit, so people who arepart of the LGBTQ plus community
(37:24):
and have different abilities,so like disabled community
members in the legislationprocess as well.
So if we heard from all theiropinions and weighted them
equally, and not just that we'regiving a seat where they'll be
heard and then we may or may notconsider it, that would also
influence how policy is made andbe more equitable, because it
would be more representative ofthe general population and take
(37:47):
into account these populationsthat are often harmed the most
and considered the least whenpolicy is being made, especially
with our current demographic,which is right.
Everyone knows it's like mainlyold dudes in legislation, but
especially at the federal level.
So, yeah, just like even thosesimple things and you know,
(38:09):
taking into consideration theplants and animals, and even
like rocks in my culture, havingpersonhood or spirituality and
the right to be here as well,and those perspectives don't
only protect those beings, theyalso protect ourselves because,
right, when the salmon do well,for example, we do well, and
when we do poorly, also thesalmon do poorly, it both ways
(38:32):
and we act like that's not howit is because of technological
advances that help us displacethese costs that still have
costs on other groups and peoplein long term.
But my short answer is it wouldbe better.
There needs to be moreindigenous representation and
indigenous perspective inlegislation.
Steve Taylor (38:54):
If there's a young indigenous person out there
considering the path you havetaken in academia, would you
recommend it?
What would you say?
Brook Thompson (39:13):
oh man, like I'd say, I recommend it.
But I would say, make sure youhave a good community because,
again, it's, it's not going tobe one person who makes the
difference in the future.
It's going to be all of ussupporting each other.
Right?
I can't take on every singlewater policy, like specific law,
etc.
In california and be like, okay, I have all the answers.
I did the research, here's whatwe got to do.
No, it's, I'm gonna probablyhave a good understanding of a
few things, but I'm going toneed a lot more people to have
(39:34):
that understanding of everythingthat I can't look at, cause I'm
only one person, and what'sgoing to happen is I am going to
want to need to like supportthose people and I'm going to
need their support as well, andthat can be as simple as like
making each other dinner or justhaving time to relax and talk
about our culture, do beadworktogether.
(39:55):
So I'd recommend it.
It's definitely a lot harderthan I thought it would be, but
as long as you have people whocan stand up for you, people who
can have your back and supportyou when you need it the most,
then it's worth it, and I hopeto be one of those people at the
moment.
So, but I I really hope there'llbe much more in the future.
(40:17):
And so again, do it.
These institutions and placesare lucky to have you.
You're not like it's not justthat you're lucky to be there.
They're lucky to have you thereand know that.
You know people like me willhopefully be a little bit
further along trying to help youout when you get to my place.
Steve Taylor (40:35):
For those who want to know more about your career
or how they can help in thecause.
Where can they find out more?
Brook Thompson (40:42):
Yeah.
So to find out more and to keephearing updates, please follow
me at Brooke M Thompson on TikTOK or Brooke, underscore M.
Underscore Thompson that's B RO O K.
Underscore M as in Morgan.
Underscore T H O M P S O N onInstagram.
Or, if you want to help out mepersonally, you can buy a salmon
(41:03):
or lamb prey stuffed animalthat I've designed and make
myself, and so on ThompsonThompsonTeachingscom, where you
can learn more aboutconservation of salmon and lamb
prey.
5% of my net profits of thesalmon stuffed animal goes to
Save California Salmon Lamb PreyConservancy anywhere that helps
out with conserving theseanimals.
And also, you know you can justspread the information through
(41:27):
those ways.
But whether you follow me ornot, hopefully we'll cross paths
sometimes in the future andI'll in the future, have a
better understanding ofeverything that's going on with
water policy in California andwe'll be making those strides
together to make it bettertomorrow.
Steve Taylor (41:45):
Brooke Thompson.
Thank you for joining us atBreaking Green.
Brook Thompson (41:48):
Yeah, thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Steve Taylor (41:51):
You have been listening to Breaking Green, a
Global Justice Ecology Projectpodcast.
To learn more about GlobalJustice Ecology Project, visit
globaljusticeecologyorg.
Breaking Green is made possibleby tax-deductible donations by
people like you.
Please help us lift up thevoices of those working to
(42:12):
protect forests, defend humanrights and expose false
solutions.
Simply text GIVE G-I-V-E to17162574187.
That's 17162574187.
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