January 20, 2024 • 40 mins
On February 3rd 2023, a Norfolk Southern train carrying thousands of gallons of hazardous chemicals derailed. It was later set on fire in part to clear the tracks.
Residents have reported illnesses that they believe are the result of exposure to the chemicals. Now complaints are growing that the government’s and EPA’s response has failed them.
An independent testing expert who has been helping residents of East Palestine, Ohio better understand what they have been exposed to is being subpoenaed by Norfolk Southern in what has been described as an attempt to intimidate him.
Also the Government Accountability Project, a storied whistleblower organization, has filed a Freedom of Information Act request to shed light on what it believes could be censorship of citizen groups and residents attempting to share information on the East Palestine disaster.
In this episode of Breaking Green, we will talk with Scott Smith, an independent testing expert and CEO of US BioSolutions LLC. He frequently works on the ground in contamination events to help affected communities by investigating and bringing people together to diagnose and solve water contamination events. Smith has been to more than 60 oil and chemical disasters in the US and abroad.
He is a graduate of Baylor and Harvard business school. He was recently subpoenaed by Norfolk Southern regarding his work in East Palestine.
We will also talk with Lesley Pacey, who is an environmental investigator with the Government Accountability Project. Her daughter Sarah was diagnosed with leukemia at age 4 in 2004. She is a cancer survivor, now 23 years old. While living on the Eastern Shore of Mobile Bay, Lesley noticed several other children who had Leukemia. Lesley demanded a study by the Alabama Department of Health that eventually identified a cancer cluster.
Recently she has focused on the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, helping chemically exposed workers, residents and tourists with chronic health issues seek justice in the mass tort related to the disaster.
She works with the Government Accountability Project to educate lawmakers and propose measures that will protect coastal communities from toxic chemical dispersants.
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Marilyn Leistner, who is mentioned in this episode was the last mayor of Times Beach Missouri, a town wiped off the map by dioxin contamination.
FOR BACKGROUND ON TIMES BEACH VISIT: TimesBeachMissouri.Com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve Taylor (00:00):
Welcome to Breaking Green, a podcast by
Global Justice PsychologyProject.
On Breaking Green, we will talkwith activists and experts to
examine the intertwined issuesof social, ecological and
economic injustice.
We will also explore some ofthe more outrageous proposals to
address climate andenvironmental crises that are
(00:23):
falsely being sold as green.
I am your host, steve Taylor.
On February 3, 2023, aNorth-folk Southern train
carrying thousands of gallons ofhazardous chemicals derailed.
It was later set on fire, inpart to clear the tracks.
Residents are reportingillnesses that they believe are
the result of exposure to thesechemicals.
(00:44):
Now complaints are growing thatthe government's and EPA's
response has failed them.
An independent testing expertwho has been assisting residents
of East Palestine betterunderstand what they have been
exposed to is being subpoenaedby North-folk Southern in what
has been described as an attemptto intimidate him.
Also, the GovernmentAccountability Project, a
(01:05):
whistleblower organization, hasfiled a Freedom of Information
Act request to shed light onwhat it believes could be
censorship of citizen groups andresidents attempting to share
information on the EastPalestine disaster.
In this episode of BreakingGreen, we will talk with Scott
Smith, an independent testingexpert and CEO of Biosolutions.
(01:27):
Scott frequently works on theground at contamination events,
supporting communities byinvestigating and bringing
people together to help affectedcommunities diagnose and solve
water contamination events.
Smith has been to more than 60oil and chemical disasters in
the US and abroad.
He is a graduate of Baylor andHarvard Business School.
(01:49):
He was recently subpoenaed byNorth-folk Southern regarding
his work in East Palestine.
We will also talk with LesliePacey, who is an environmental
investigator with the GovernmentAccountability Project.
Recently she has focused onthe Deepwater Horizon oil spill,
(02:19):
helping chemically exposedworkers, residents and tourists
with chronic health issues seekjustice in the mass tort related
to the disaster.
Leslie works with theGovernment Accountability
Project to educate lawmakers andpropose measures that will
protect coastal communities fromtoxic chemical dispersants.
Leslie Pacey and Scott Smithwelcome to Breaking Green.
Lesley Pacey (02:42):
Well, thank you for having us.
Scott Smith (02:44):
Steve, it's great to be here and thanks for having
us.
Steve Taylor (02:49):
Scott, let's start with you.
You are what many would call anenvironmental activist.
You've been described as anindependent testing expert, but
I think a large part of yourwork is providing independent
testing for citizens andcommunities at toxic sites to
fill in gaps that the federalagencies are leaving.
Could you please tell us alittle bit about your work, what
(03:13):
it is and why you do it?
Scott Smith (03:16):
Yeah, steve, thanks for that description.
I'd say also with where we arein this country.
Now you can call it activismwhat you will.
I've become a rather militantfighter for constitutional
rights and free speech, becausewhat is going on with these
government agencies andmulti-billion dollar companies
(03:38):
is worse than I've ever seen it,with East Palestine being a
significant event and turningpoint for the country.
A little bit about EastPalestine.
Over social media, someresidents reached out to me
because I've been doing this for17 years.
I've been in over 60 disasters,starting it with my own and my
own disaster in 2006.
(04:01):
Well contaminated floodwaters,upstate New York, wiped out my
life, my business and 100employees, and we had to rebuild
everything from scratch.
That's when I realizedeverything that we're taught
about water testing is flawed.
For example I'll just say thisas succinctly as possible you
(04:24):
take a 250 milliliter, 500milliliter glass jar and put it
in the water.
That only tells you what's inthat jar of water, because water
and contamination are inequilibrium.
And I realized about how thegaming of the system falls not
to tax.
If you're the responsible partyin one of these disasters, you
(04:49):
can hire contractors that arenot independent, even though the
public is told they'reindependent, and then you can
game the system.
And whether it's East Palestineor any of these other 60
disasters, if I were one ofthese unscrupulous, unethical
contractors being paid by aNorfolk Southern responsible
(05:09):
party, I could game the systemand come up with all what I call
false not to tax by testingfrom a surface water where it's
clear.
My approach is whether itespecially with water that its
life exists in what's called thewater column, above the bottom,
(05:31):
beneath the surface.
So you have to test where lifeis, meaning the sediment, the
soil, not just the surface ofthe water and that's an issue in
East Palestine, where thenarrative is set by Norfolk
Southern in the EPA isessentially operating as the
(05:51):
public relations arm of NorfolkSouthern.
The residents reached out to mebecause I'm known for going into
these real world disasters.
I was only going to go outtwice and help the residents.
Well, this I uncovered so muchof this corruption and so much,
so many problems with thetesting.
(06:12):
This has evolved into me goingout there 22 trips and 26 rounds
of testing and me spending,right now, right around $110,000
of my own money.
But I'm a stubborn, principledperson and I just at this point,
I will not give up on exposingthe corruption and getting truth
(06:34):
and justice for the affectedresidents in the community.
Steve Taylor (06:38):
So let's remind people what happened in East
Palestine that in February 3,2023, there was a train over a
mile long derailed and therewere hundreds of thousands of
gallons of chemicals, vinylchloride and the like.
There was a decision to burnthat spill, a lot of people
(07:00):
alleged, just because theywanted to open up the tracks
sooner, and there was basicallyan open air incinerator.
And we had Amanda Keiger from acitizens group on last year and
she was talking about just thewhole toxic soup that was put on
fire, this whole toxic bonfire,the nosebleeds people were
(07:23):
having, and she mentionedconcerns with water, how the
testing was done.
Could you tell us what are youfinding in East Palestine and
how does it differ from what theagencies are saying?
Scott Smith (07:40):
Okay, great question.
Before that, I had to keep itvery simple for the audience.
So, like I also say for themedia, what goes on in East
Palestine and Norfolk Southernand these disasters is
equivalent to a murderer incourt being allowed to get the
so-called independent testingfor the DNA match for the victim
(08:02):
.
Now do you really think if themurderer is in charge of the DNA
testing, it's going to comeback Implicating the murderer?
No, it is that simple.
This is the only.
These events like NorfolkSouthern.
East Palestine is the only timein this country where the
(08:23):
guilty party is allowed todevelop the narrative and do all
the testing.
So, with that being said, whatI realized is the the residents
who were complaining.
The EPA would not test indoors,would not test surfaces, and
the EPA and Norfolk SouthernWould not test residents who
(08:46):
were reporting health symptomsclose to the derailment site for
soil.
The EPA would not test thesediment and the creeks near
ground zero.
So I started testing all of theall of these Areas, the
sediment I started in Februaryof last year sulfur run in the
creek and and getting Testingfor a full slate of chemicals
(09:12):
called semi volatile organiccompounds and dioxins Also went
to control areas.
Well where the plume was not,where there was no impact.
I was able to clearly showevidence from this testing that
there was an increase in animpact with these chemicals
(09:33):
after the derailment, after thecontrolled burn, and,
additionally, residents werereporting, you know, burning
lungs, you know blood in theirurine, female health issues,
menstrual cycle issues, a wholehost of issues.
So, instead of Biopsyingsomeone's lung, the next best
(09:57):
thing I started testing furnacefilters to see what they May
have been exposed to.
The whole premise, steve, is to, instead of the unknown and
these people being lied to,which really increases their
panic and fear, if you can tellthem what they might have Been
exposed to so they can go totheir doctors.
(10:17):
That helps them.
Versus, you know, because thegovernment, the EPA, saying it's
PTSD, it's psychosomatic, youare the reason you're sick, it's
the chemicals in your house.
Well, irrespective of mytesting or anybody else's
testing, I can tell you verysimply None of these health
(10:40):
symptoms were ubiquitous in theenvironment prior to the
derailment and all you need issimple logic like that to know
that something is going on.
And East Palestine is unique,unlike any other disaster I've
been in and any other thingthat's happened in North America
(11:00):
, because the mixture ofchemicals are unprecedented.
Even with the BP oil spill,where I was, it was basically
limited to oil and related oilcompounds.
Here you have oil and you havea whole host of dioxins from
incomplete combustion.
(11:20):
You have the PVC, polyvinylchloride, resin cars, you have
the vinyl chloride.
You have a toxic concoctionthat is really unprecedented and
there's something calledsynergistic toxicity, and the
way I explain that is everyoneknows about this is in a
positive way.
You get a migraine.
(11:40):
You take migraine pills overthe counter with aspirin and
caffeine Together, those combinesynergistically to help get rid
of your migraine.
Well, if you take just aspirinor just caffeine, it won't.
So that's an example of lowdosages of chemicals mixing
(12:01):
together to create a synergisticeffect.
Now, on the bad side of this,you take these benzene related
compounds, where the EPAknowingly is deceiving people,
citing a singular exposure to asingular chemical.
Well, this involved all thesebenzene compounds, all these
dioxins, all these othervolatiles, all these chemicals
(12:22):
mixed together.
In a way, it is a fact thatthere are no standards for
mixtures of chemicals.
It is a fact that mixtures ofchemicals have proven, at very
low levels, when they combine,to create these synergistic
effects and can create thingsand this is where I'm not a
medical doctor but mitochondrialcell disruption and these
(12:43):
strokes you're seeing.
People are having these strokesand mini strokes, and that was
not at all present or ubiquitousin the community prior to this.
Now I also want to make anothervery important point in that I
(13:04):
reached out to Marilyn Lysnerbecause News Nation did some
stories and they flew out thereand interviewed Marilyn, and
then at one of my communitypresentations I decided to spend
the money on my own and fly herout and have gotten to know her
pretty well and at thebeginning of this I thought well
(13:25):
, times Beach, it's interestingto look at.
But I was not thinking it wasreally comparable to East
Palestine, because Times Beachwas more TCDD and not all these
other chemicals.
Well, what changed was when Isat down with Marilyn at a
(13:46):
community meeting and she startstalking about strokes, female
issues, kidney issues, all thesethings that are happening in
East Palestine, and it's justtoo eerily similar.
Steve Taylor (14:02):
So I know Marilyn is Well, I was kind of involved
in Well I was.
I was involved in the timespeech cleanup myself and there
were a lot of chemicals,volatile organic compounds, pcbs
, bliss picked up from a lot ofsites and it was just a chemical
(14:23):
soup that he sprayed.
But I did really pick up onwhat you said about fear and how
people need to know the truth.
One of the reasons I became anenvironmentalist or involved in
environmental issues is that Iwas involved in two of the time
speech sites and I believe and Ibelieve have shown and Marilyn
(14:50):
Leisner, I know, agrees that,and there's pretty substantial
documentation that thegovernment, both state and
federal, knew of thecontamination and let people sit
in it for at least a decade.
Not only that I remember whenthey came to a place I was
living that had been sprayedwith dioxin and they showed up
(15:11):
in their protective gear,respirators, knocked on the door
and they said we need to testyour home inside here and I said
For what?
And they said, well, we can'ttell you.
And that was how it all startedon that level of transparency
we can't tell you.
And what I saw from there wasdissembling mendacity.
(15:32):
And I worked very hard, alongwith others, to try to bring
about transparency.
So I want to jump to Leslie andsay Leslie, what brought you
into this story?
Leslie, the governmentaccountability project, what
happened?
Lesley Pacey (15:50):
Well, thank you, steve, and thanks for having us
and shining a light on thistragedy, because it is truly a
tragedy.
I have been investigating theBP oil spill and the playbook
that allowed BP to get away withcontaminating so many of our
beaches along the Gulf Coast andthe workers and residents for a
(16:12):
number of years.
And after the East Palestinetrain derailment happened and
the subsequent burning, we weresort of just following it in the
news and I kept seeing Scott'sname come up and on his newscast
.
And here's this guy that's, youknow, I hadn't heard of before,
(16:33):
maybe should have, but he wasout there doing tests and
telling the residents whatreally was going on with their
homes and their community andtheir health, and he was really
like just a godsend to thiscommunity.
So and then simultaneously wewere seeing news reports that
showed that certain scientistswere very critical of the EPA's
(16:59):
role in the response and sayingthings like well, why didn't
they test for dioxin sooner?
That's a no brainer, you shouldhave done that right away.
And it took a petition ofmultiple residents and a number
of other things, you knowreaching out to lawmakers and
things of that nature to get thetesting started there.
(17:20):
And that was, I want to sayMarch, late March or mid March.
So right off, right off,there's red flags going off.
You know why isn't the EPAlooking at this and what's their
resistance to this?
And the scientists werecriticizing it.
Scott was there findingproblems, finding dioxins, and
(17:43):
so we reached out to Scott andyou know we just started working
together.
The government accountabilityproject has started an
investigation into what reallyhappened and usually what we do
we did this with BP as well.
We have a fourth report comingout in a couple of weeks on the
(18:03):
BP OLSPEL.
What we do is we takeaffidavits from residents,
whistleblowers, we justinvestigate the situation as
much as possible.
We have scientists that wespeak with and Scott was really
at the center of all thisbecause he already knew the
residents.
He's helped connect us withpeople and sort of get more
(18:24):
engaged in the community, andwhat we found so far in their
few months that we've been I'vebeen back, I've been to East
Palestine twice, going again forthe anniversary, which is
February 3rd, and what we foundout is pretty horrific.
You know the health symptomsthat began with this whole event
(18:47):
are continuing.
There are residents that havebeen temporarily relocated to
housing outside the community.
When they come home to theirhouses, they experienced the
bloody noses again, theheadaches, the dizziness,
vomiting, you name it.
And then there's residents thathave had lots of exposure to
(19:09):
the community, haven't gottenout of the community and they're
experiencing some pretty freakythings, like, you know rapid
tooth decay.
Some people have reported thatall their teeth have to be
removed.
There's something going on withthat.
People are having eye issues.
They had a run on asthmainhalers because there was so
(19:31):
much of an eat there for them.
Brashes continue.
People have lost all their hair.
So Common Sense tells you, evenif there wasn't a Scotsmith
involved in all this, commonSense tells you EPA waited too
long to do the testing.
Epa is using Norfolk Southern'scontractors to, you know,
(19:52):
continue the narrative thateverything's safe and there's
nothing to see here.
And people are sick.
People are truly sick andthey're terrified to go back
home.
Or, if they're there, many ofthem want to leave but can't
afford to leave.
So in part, you know, we'rehoping to help those residents
by, you know, perhaps gettingthem a way to get out if they so
(20:15):
desire.
You know, maybe some governmentassistance, and we're also
trying to shine a light on, youknow, this is a playbook.
This is how it works in America.
You have a disaster, theresponsible party and the EPA
work hand in hand, at the top ofthat triangle of responsibility
in these unified commandstructure, and they work
(20:39):
together and they work withthese contractors that are paid
by the polluter, and so it's nota system set up really to
protect public health, it's asystem set up to protect these
multi-billion dollarcorporations.
Steve Taylor (20:53):
There's another playbook and that's like let's
attack the residents.
Scott, Leslie, what the reasonI wanted to bring you on today
is.
I have been reading that Scottreceived a subpoena from
Northfolk Southern.
Could, Leslie, Scott, either ofyou tell me more about that?
Scott Smith (21:17):
So I was out in East Palestine for a community
presentation that I gave onOctober 18th and update I was,
you know, at the Clevelandairport.
Flying back, when I live onCape Cod, the sheriff Barnsville
County Sheriff called me andsaid we're looking to serve you
with a subpoena.
So I called my personalattorney and said Brian, I'm not
(21:45):
involved in any litigation.
Now I'm told this is a thirdparty subpoena.
Could this really be NorthfolkSouthern?
Could they really be this thisstupid for poking me in the eye?
They don't know what they'remessing with.
So, sure enough, got home,called the sheriff.
He came to my driveway it wasNorfolk Southern Supining me for
(22:08):
all my communications to media,all my communications to
residents, all my testing, andthis is all private stuff.
So and again, I'm not a lawyer,but in my view, violet, you can
see my response I sent to you,violating free speech,
constitutional rights, designedto intimidate and threaten me
(22:29):
and, it's funny, even theexperts on my team and
everything.
Most people get all stressedout about subpoenas, but I've
been you know the expressionthrowing bare rabbit in the
briar patch, so they literallymade my day.
They clearly didn't do thebackground.
They had a bunch.
They probably had a bunch ofarrogant people sitting on Zoom
calls, not on the ground,thinking they could silence me.
(22:51):
So we worked with the governmentaccountability project, thank
God, and would helped us comingup with a response, and my
lawyer sent it off to them andthey threatened.
You know, even beforeThanksgiving they were
threatening well, we're gonnafile a motion to compel, you
gotta comply, and all thesethings.
And we basically told them, meand my attorney, stop
(23:15):
threatening.
You know where I live,obviously, file the motion to
compel, we'll see you in court,we'll bring the media, we'll
bring the cameras.
I still have faith, for themost part, in the justice system
and I don't see any judge, evenif it's a multi-billion dollar
company, making an exception toviolate someone's constitutional
(23:37):
rights.
Steve Taylor (23:39):
It seems to me, is that they're bringing the heat,
or at least they're trying toyou say you're fine with it.
I guess what I think you'resuggesting is maybe even use it
to bring more attention to thePalestine tragedy, or maybe do
discovery yourself.
But is it accurate to say thatyou feel that they're attempting
(24:00):
to intimidate you?
Scott Smith (24:01):
Oh, not just a.
Yeah.
They have attempted tointimidate me, but I can tell
you from the media calls I get,there's a major smear and
defamation campaign going onthat's being coordinated and led
by a guy named Mark Durna, withthe EPA, along with others to
be named, and the railroaditself accusing me of making up
(24:24):
videos, accusing me of usingdirty shovels and none of the
data suggests that.
And the reality of thesituation.
And I've offered to test sideby side on record over and over
again and to this day with therailroad, with the EPA, they
refuse.
I offered to meet with aresident with the railroad, as
long as there was reciprocity,meaning they show me their
(24:48):
detailed, raw reports.
I show them all the details onmine.
They only want a one-way street, so something.
They have a lot to hide and wewill see what happens with this.
And they just, you know theypick the wrong guy to mess with
(25:09):
on this.
Because I'm stubborn, I don'tgive up and I will fight to the
death against all thiscorruption, until it's exposed
in front of millions andmillions of people.
Steve Taylor (25:21):
So, along with your allegations that there's a
smear campaign, you're sayingyou're confident that you'd be
willing to put up your sciencealongside their science and take
a close look at it.
Scott Smith (25:33):
That's correct.
Then, and also the smearcampaign.
I don't say that lightly,because this is coming in from
residents willing to doaffidavits.
It's coming in from mediaThings they are are saying about
me that are, you know, justsimply not true, which is fine.
I welcome that and I welcomethis discussion because I think
(25:55):
they're used to mean evenexperts on my team.
If they got subpoenaed, theywas like Scott you stressed out,
and I'm like I'm a uniqueindividual Leslie will probably
just say that's anunderstatement because this
motivates me what they've done.
I know this scares a lot ofpeople.
They're using their typicalplaybook on me, but now this has
motivated me.
I'm on the mission that muchmore to get the truth out.
Steve Taylor (26:19):
Well, Scott, you must be a very courageous person
.
Scott Smith (26:24):
You get, whether it's East Palestine or other
things.
We have a right to free speechin in.
You know all this talk ofdemocracy, democracy.
Well, we don't have ourconstitutional rights and free
speech.
We have no democracy, and I saythat across all political
aisles.
Everyone needs to watch out,because anybody listening to
this it could be you next.
You could be the next ScottSmith.
(26:45):
If you speak up in yourcommunity about anything, you
could be targeted next by thegovernment that is that is doing
the bidding and the dirty workof the multi billion dollar
corporations.
Steve Taylor (26:56):
It is a scary proposition and and there's even
a term for it a slap suit.
I mean, technically you're not,this isn't a suit, but you know
I it seems to be a bit of in inin the playbook when, when
residents, citizens are aredealing with a huge chemical
disaster, that those who aretrying to navigate it and help
(27:20):
bring information into acommunity often find themselves
entangled in in what we couldcharacterize as a slap,
something meant to intimidateand to that point of of free
speech.
I wanted to bring something toLeslie.
Leslie, I have a press releaseby the government accountability
project and it's entitled foryou for EPA records on Facebook
(27:44):
censorship of East Palestineposts filed.
Yes, yes.
Yes so tell us a little bitwhat's going on there.
It seems like this is even abit beyond the subpoena.
I think maybe it happenedafterwards, but but there were
attempts to are.
There were requests or demandsthat content related to
(28:05):
contamination In in opinionsexpressed about it be taken down
from Facebook.
Lesley Pacey (28:11):
There's some really strange things going on
here, and I agree with you,first off, that this is the
beginnings of what could be aslap suit against Scott, and I
do feel like it's definitelyaimed at intimidating him and if
, honestly, if his resultsaren't, you know, carrying
weight, then why would they needto do this?
(28:32):
Now, as for the FOIA EPA FOIAon Facebook the reason that we
started that was because Scottnoticed that he was receiving
messages from Facebook and Scottcorrect me if I'm wrong that he
was in threat of his goodstanding, was being threatened
because he had posted aHuffington post article on
(28:55):
synergistic toxicity and he'sPalestine and they, you know,
flag that post, and they flagthat post for one of the most
outspoken residents there aswell, and it looked like it was
just being blocked.
So we thought that was reallyweird, because this is a, you
know, a news, the news newsagency that is very, very well
(29:19):
respected and it's an importantarticle, and so why would they
take that down?
In addition to that, I've hadreports from residents that Mark
Dernaud had reached out to them.
This is there again theHomeland Security arm of the EPA
and Region 5 there.
Who's over the East Palestineresponse.
(29:42):
He's reached out to activistsin the community and told them I
suggest you take this post downon Facebook.
It's not accurate.
We've also had really weirdstuff going on that we haven't
even mentioned yet, but since wefiled the FOIA, I've had other
residents reach out to me withsimilar situations.
(30:02):
One of the residents wasspeaking at a hearing for any
for on East Palestine onFebruary 23rd.
That post was on Facebook,received about, I want to say,
207,000 likes or views, and thenthat number has remained the
(30:24):
same since March when it wentcrazy viral, and so in the also,
I've had residents say well,you know, in the very beginning
of all this, whenever we triedto share posts of the fire in
the blaze that was going on allthese chemicals, they were being
taken down repeatedly byFacebook.
(30:44):
So we're wanting to know, youknow, anything on Facebook that
EPA is involved with.
We want to know what kind ofcontracts they have with
Facebook.
We want to know what kind ofinternal communications they've
had and any posts that EPAofficials have made on Facebook
regarding East Palestine and Inamed a few residents in there.
(31:06):
I probably should have put inmore now that I'm hearing from
some of these folks, but youknow.
Additionally, outside ofFacebook, some really weird
stuff is going on to.
Durna had reached out to one ofthe community groups that's
been outspoken about healtheffects and said you know what
you know?
I've seen your newsletter.
Let me get in and edit it,would you let me do that?
(31:28):
So I mean just, it just feelslike you know government
interference and I'm not sure ifit's coming from the railroad
or some shareholders they haveat Facebook that have mutual
interest in the railroad or ifit's strictly any of those EPA
situation.
But we can FOIA that.
(31:48):
So that's what we did.
Steve Taylor (31:50):
Has there been a response to FOIA?
Have you gotten any informationor is this something a work in
progress?
Lesley Pacey (31:57):
It's a work in progress.
It's a brand new FOIA.
I think we followed it lastweek, so it'll be a while.
We have two other FOIAs out tothe EPA on dioxins and acrolein
and some other things, as wellas any communications related to
Scott Smith.
We filed a lawsuit on the firstone because they said they
needed more time to do it.
They also denied us a feewaiver at government
(32:21):
accountability project.
We have never in 45 years beendenied a fee waiver for
production of these FOIAdocuments.
So and those FOIAs can getquite expensive.
Steve Taylor (32:33):
So, scott, what does your testing suggest is
happening in the East Palestine,and how does it differ from
what the EPA is saying?
Scott Smith (32:43):
Great question.
First of all, I use the EPA ison record.
They don't question my labresults.
I use urethans, one of probablythe best lab in the country for
dioxins and other compounds,and what I'm doing differently
from the EPA is I'm going totest residents that are close to
(33:04):
the derailment site that arehaving health symptoms.
The EPA has refused to testtheir soil outside their home.
They've refused to test insidethe home, air and surfaces,
which doesn't make any sense.
So I am finding in places likethat, elevated dioxin levels
(33:28):
above background.
Now I won't get into all thetechnical information, but we're
now up to 43 percent of ourtesting are way above background
.
Just to give you one example,without getting into too much of
the weeds, six parts pertrillion of dioxins is something
(33:50):
that is called background in acommunity where there hasn't
been to realmen or a majorcontamination.
So 43 percent of our samplesare way above that.
So what we are detecting isso-called hot spots within East
Palestine.
(34:10):
Now there is some good news isthis is so complicated, no one
understands the movements andthe wind patterns.
But the good news is somewherebetween 60 to 70 percent of my
testing results are comingwithin background.
Now the EPA pulled the triggeron me with Mark Durna and the
Smear campaign because if I wereusing dirty shovels and doing
(34:34):
all these things they'reaccusing me of, which I believe
they're accusing me of doing thethings they're doing I've
pointed out on other media.
My results actually believe itor not probably limit the
liability of the railroad, butat the same time, it does point
to the real hot spots of theaffected areas.
So we're finding dioxins.
(34:56):
We're also finding a suite ofbenzene-related compounds called
semi-volatile organic compounds.
In these areas we're seeing afingerprint, just like a human
has a fingerprint when youcommit any crime or robbery or
murder.
These fingerprints from burningof PVC resin, cars smoldering
(35:20):
is not like you're getting.
Here's another again isdeception from the EPA.
Oh, these dioxins were createdfrom your barbecue grill in your
backyard.
There's a whole differentfingerprint that comes from
these chemical spills anddisasters.
So we're detecting thesefingerprints too.
That's why, steve, I've invitedthe EPA and the railroad to
(35:42):
test side by side with me.
Why wouldn't they do that?
I'm very transparent.
If I were doing something wrongor they tested side by side,
I'd be the first one to correctit.
They won't meet with me onbehalf of the community to share
in reciprocity all the details.
They will not test side by sidewith me.
Instead, they're doing allthese things that may indeed
(36:06):
violate my constitutional rights.
You, basically the EPA,stalking me with my private
address, undermining me.
So it would be a lot easier.
If Scott Smith is so wrong, gofilm it.
I'd even say invite the media,do it side by side.
Let's take side by side tests,send them to the same in
(36:27):
different labs and see where weare.
They will not do that.
Steve Taylor (36:31):
Wow, that's amazing.
I mean it just sounds sofamiliar in a way.
We tried so hard to get splitsampling.
It was so hard to get data.
I mean there was, you know,state agencies had just gotten
rid of data after a certainperiod of time.
It was so hard to get conjurerspecific data.
We never got some conjurerspecific data, which is the
(36:53):
particular fingerprint you'retalking about.
I believe Absolutely.
Yeah, this is the conjurerspecific, the toxic equivalency.
I mean you can't just say, oh,there's just dioxin, you got all
these other things.
There's amplifying effects.
It just amazes me that theywon't do something side by side
with you.
It sounds like you're veryconfident in your science.
You work with a team of experts, is that so, scott?
Scott Smith (37:16):
I've had PhDs, toxicologists, reach out to me
and volunteer around me, so I'vespent a lot of money.
I'm kind of the front man outthere in the public, but the
science team, they're there.
They did a society ofenvironmental toxicology and
chemistry.
We did a poster presentation.
That's all in the public.
I think you've seen that, andthe team has all reached out to
(37:37):
me.
They have over 150 years ofexperience in dioxins and other
chemicals.
One gentleman on the team wasthe number two guy at the Ohio
EPA and one of the other guysinvolved, bruce Vigon, has a
tremendous background instatistics too and they look at
all this stuff.
So we're assembling data andwe're doing everything by the
(37:59):
book.
We're testing where the EPA andthe railroad refused to test.
They would get the same resultswe're getting.
Steve Taylor (38:07):
I applaud you for your efforts to shine a light on
what's happening in EastPalestine.
Is there anything that Ihaven't asked you that either of
you would like to address?
Lesley Pacey (38:19):
One thing I also want to mention, very thankful
for Scott and his team, but alsothankful for the community.
I think EPA in the North, northor Southern vastly
underestimated the community ofEast Palestine.
This is a smart group of people.
They've got a fighting spirit,they're organized and there's a
(38:43):
very good number of peoplewithin the community that are
keeping notes on everything andthey're making things happen.
So I think I want to make thatpoint.
We do have quite a number ofwitnesses that are telling us
some really amazing things thatyou wouldn't hear from the EPA
or any of the contractors wouldbe opposite pretty much of what
(39:06):
you're hearing.
But we can always take morestatements from residents, first
responders.
We would love to have some EPAwhistleblowers.
We would love to have morescientists and maybe even some
Norfolk Southern contractorsthat have seen things that
they're not comfortable with.
We can keep those peopleanonymous to protect their jobs,
(39:29):
but we really want to get outthe truth and we will get out
the truth here.
Scott Smith (39:35):
I think this is a turning point for the entire
country and, with what I saidbefore and I think that the
people coming together on thisare unprecedented to get the
truth out and obviously I'm veryappreciative and grateful for
Leslie and the governmentaccountability project I
couldn't continue to do this andif it weren't for the
(39:55):
government accountabilityproject and Leslie, maybe that
subpoena would have had aneffect on me.
Steve Taylor (40:01):
Leslie Scott.
Thank you for joining us onBreaking Green.
Lesley Pacey (40:05):
Thank you.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Steve Taylor (40:08):
You have been listening to Breaking Green a
global justice ecology projectpodcast.
To learn more about globaljustice ecology project, visit
globaljusticeecologyorg.
Breaking Green is made possibleby tax deductible donations by
people like you.
These help us lift up thevoices of those working to
(40:28):
protect forests, defend humanrights and expose false
solutions.
Simply text GIVE G-I-V-E-21-716-257-4187.
That's 1-716-257-4187.
Welcome to Breaking Green, a podcast by
Global Justice PsychologyProject.
On Breaking Green, we will talkwith activists and experts to
examine the intertwined issuesof social, ecological and
economic injustice.
We will also explore some ofthe more outrageous proposals to
address climate andenvironmental crises that are
(00:23):
falsely being sold as green.
I am your host, steve Taylor.
On February 3, 2023, aNorth-folk Southern train
carrying thousands of gallons ofhazardous chemicals derailed.
It was later set on fire, inpart to clear the tracks.
Residents are reportingillnesses that they believe are
the result of exposure to thesechemicals.
(00:44):
Now complaints are growing thatthe government's and EPA's
response has failed them.
An independent testing expertwho has been assisting residents
of East Palestine betterunderstand what they have been
exposed to is being subpoenaedby North-folk Southern in what
has been described as an attemptto intimidate him.
Also, the GovernmentAccountability Project, a
(01:05):
whistleblower organization, hasfiled a Freedom of Information
Act request to shed light onwhat it believes could be
censorship of citizen groups andresidents attempting to share
information on the EastPalestine disaster.
In this episode of BreakingGreen, we will talk with Scott
Smith, an independent testingexpert and CEO of Biosolutions.
(01:27):
Scott frequently works on theground at contamination events,
supporting communities byinvestigating and bringing
people together to help affectedcommunities diagnose and solve
water contamination events.
Smith has been to more than 60oil and chemical disasters in
the US and abroad.
He is a graduate of Baylor andHarvard Business School.
(01:49):
He was recently subpoenaed byNorth-folk Southern regarding
his work in East Palestine.
We will also talk with LesliePacey, who is an environmental
investigator with the GovernmentAccountability Project.
Recently she has focused onthe Deepwater Horizon oil spill,
(02:19):
helping chemically exposedworkers, residents and tourists
with chronic health issues seekjustice in the mass tort related
to the disaster.
Leslie works with theGovernment Accountability
Project to educate lawmakers andpropose measures that will
protect coastal communities fromtoxic chemical dispersants.
Leslie Pacey and Scott Smithwelcome to Breaking Green.
Lesley Pacey (02:42):
Well, thank you for having us.
Scott Smith (02:44):
Steve, it's great to be here and thanks for having
us.
Steve Taylor (02:49):
Scott, let's start with you.
You are what many would call anenvironmental activist.
You've been described as anindependent testing expert, but
I think a large part of yourwork is providing independent
testing for citizens andcommunities at toxic sites to
fill in gaps that the federalagencies are leaving.
Could you please tell us alittle bit about your work, what
(03:13):
it is and why you do it?
Scott Smith (03:16):
Yeah, steve, thanks for that description.
I'd say also with where we arein this country.
Now you can call it activismwhat you will.
I've become a rather militantfighter for constitutional
rights and free speech, becausewhat is going on with these
government agencies andmulti-billion dollar companies
(03:38):
is worse than I've ever seen it,with East Palestine being a
significant event and turningpoint for the country.
A little bit about EastPalestine.
Over social media, someresidents reached out to me
because I've been doing this for17 years.
I've been in over 60 disasters,starting it with my own and my
own disaster in 2006.
(04:01):
Well contaminated floodwaters,upstate New York, wiped out my
life, my business and 100employees, and we had to rebuild
everything from scratch.
That's when I realizedeverything that we're taught
about water testing is flawed.
For example I'll just say thisas succinctly as possible you
(04:24):
take a 250 milliliter, 500milliliter glass jar and put it
in the water.
That only tells you what's inthat jar of water, because water
and contamination are inequilibrium.
And I realized about how thegaming of the system falls not
to tax.
If you're the responsible partyin one of these disasters, you
(04:49):
can hire contractors that arenot independent, even though the
public is told they'reindependent, and then you can
game the system.
And whether it's East Palestineor any of these other 60
disasters, if I were one ofthese unscrupulous, unethical
contractors being paid by aNorfolk Southern responsible
(05:09):
party, I could game the systemand come up with all what I call
false not to tax by testingfrom a surface water where it's
clear.
My approach is whether itespecially with water that its
life exists in what's called thewater column, above the bottom,
(05:31):
beneath the surface.
So you have to test where lifeis, meaning the sediment, the
soil, not just the surface ofthe water and that's an issue in
East Palestine, where thenarrative is set by Norfolk
Southern in the EPA isessentially operating as the
(05:51):
public relations arm of NorfolkSouthern.
The residents reached out to mebecause I'm known for going into
these real world disasters.
I was only going to go outtwice and help the residents.
Well, this I uncovered so muchof this corruption and so much,
so many problems with thetesting.
(06:12):
This has evolved into me goingout there 22 trips and 26 rounds
of testing and me spending,right now, right around $110,000
of my own money.
But I'm a stubborn, principledperson and I just at this point,
I will not give up on exposingthe corruption and getting truth
(06:34):
and justice for the affectedresidents in the community.
Steve Taylor (06:38):
So let's remind people what happened in East
Palestine that in February 3,2023, there was a train over a
mile long derailed and therewere hundreds of thousands of
gallons of chemicals, vinylchloride and the like.
There was a decision to burnthat spill, a lot of people
(07:00):
alleged, just because theywanted to open up the tracks
sooner, and there was basicallyan open air incinerator.
And we had Amanda Keiger from acitizens group on last year and
she was talking about just thewhole toxic soup that was put on
fire, this whole toxic bonfire,the nosebleeds people were
(07:23):
having, and she mentionedconcerns with water, how the
testing was done.
Could you tell us what are youfinding in East Palestine and
how does it differ from what theagencies are saying?
Scott Smith (07:40):
Okay, great question.
Before that, I had to keep itvery simple for the audience.
So, like I also say for themedia, what goes on in East
Palestine and Norfolk Southernand these disasters is
equivalent to a murderer incourt being allowed to get the
so-called independent testingfor the DNA match for the victim
(08:02):
.
Now do you really think if themurderer is in charge of the DNA
testing, it's going to comeback Implicating the murderer?
No, it is that simple.
This is the only.
These events like NorfolkSouthern.
East Palestine is the only timein this country where the
(08:23):
guilty party is allowed todevelop the narrative and do all
the testing.
So, with that being said, whatI realized is the the residents
who were complaining.
The EPA would not test indoors,would not test surfaces, and
the EPA and Norfolk SouthernWould not test residents who
(08:46):
were reporting health symptomsclose to the derailment site for
soil.
The EPA would not test thesediment and the creeks near
ground zero.
So I started testing all of theall of these Areas, the
sediment I started in Februaryof last year sulfur run in the
creek and and getting Testingfor a full slate of chemicals
(09:12):
called semi volatile organiccompounds and dioxins Also went
to control areas.
Well where the plume was not,where there was no impact.
I was able to clearly showevidence from this testing that
there was an increase in animpact with these chemicals
(09:33):
after the derailment, after thecontrolled burn, and,
additionally, residents werereporting, you know, burning
lungs, you know blood in theirurine, female health issues,
menstrual cycle issues, a wholehost of issues.
So, instead of Biopsyingsomeone's lung, the next best
(09:57):
thing I started testing furnacefilters to see what they May
have been exposed to.
The whole premise, steve, is to, instead of the unknown and
these people being lied to,which really increases their
panic and fear, if you can tellthem what they might have Been
exposed to so they can go totheir doctors.
(10:17):
That helps them.
Versus, you know, because thegovernment, the EPA, saying it's
PTSD, it's psychosomatic, youare the reason you're sick, it's
the chemicals in your house.
Well, irrespective of mytesting or anybody else's
testing, I can tell you verysimply None of these health
(10:40):
symptoms were ubiquitous in theenvironment prior to the
derailment and all you need issimple logic like that to know
that something is going on.
And East Palestine is unique,unlike any other disaster I've
been in and any other thingthat's happened in North America
(11:00):
, because the mixture ofchemicals are unprecedented.
Even with the BP oil spill,where I was, it was basically
limited to oil and related oilcompounds.
Here you have oil and you havea whole host of dioxins from
incomplete combustion.
(11:20):
You have the PVC, polyvinylchloride, resin cars, you have
the vinyl chloride.
You have a toxic concoctionthat is really unprecedented and
there's something calledsynergistic toxicity, and the
way I explain that is everyoneknows about this is in a
positive way.
You get a migraine.
(11:40):
You take migraine pills overthe counter with aspirin and
caffeine Together, those combinesynergistically to help get rid
of your migraine.
Well, if you take just aspirinor just caffeine, it won't.
So that's an example of lowdosages of chemicals mixing
(12:01):
together to create a synergisticeffect.
Now, on the bad side of this,you take these benzene related
compounds, where the EPAknowingly is deceiving people,
citing a singular exposure to asingular chemical.
Well, this involved all thesebenzene compounds, all these
dioxins, all these othervolatiles, all these chemicals
(12:22):
mixed together.
In a way, it is a fact thatthere are no standards for
mixtures of chemicals.
It is a fact that mixtures ofchemicals have proven, at very
low levels, when they combine,to create these synergistic
effects and can create thingsand this is where I'm not a
medical doctor but mitochondrialcell disruption and these
(12:43):
strokes you're seeing.
People are having these strokesand mini strokes, and that was
not at all present or ubiquitousin the community prior to this.
Now I also want to make anothervery important point in that I
(13:04):
reached out to Marilyn Lysnerbecause News Nation did some
stories and they flew out thereand interviewed Marilyn, and
then at one of my communitypresentations I decided to spend
the money on my own and fly herout and have gotten to know her
pretty well and at thebeginning of this I thought well
(13:25):
, times Beach, it's interestingto look at.
But I was not thinking it wasreally comparable to East
Palestine, because Times Beachwas more TCDD and not all these
other chemicals.
Well, what changed was when Isat down with Marilyn at a
(13:46):
community meeting and she startstalking about strokes, female
issues, kidney issues, all thesethings that are happening in
East Palestine, and it's justtoo eerily similar.
Steve Taylor (14:02):
So I know Marilyn is Well, I was kind of involved
in Well I was.
I was involved in the timespeech cleanup myself and there
were a lot of chemicals,volatile organic compounds, pcbs
, bliss picked up from a lot ofsites and it was just a chemical
(14:23):
soup that he sprayed.
But I did really pick up onwhat you said about fear and how
people need to know the truth.
One of the reasons I became anenvironmentalist or involved in
environmental issues is that Iwas involved in two of the time
speech sites and I believe and Ibelieve have shown and Marilyn
(14:50):
Leisner, I know, agrees that,and there's pretty substantial
documentation that thegovernment, both state and
federal, knew of thecontamination and let people sit
in it for at least a decade.
Not only that I remember whenthey came to a place I was
living that had been sprayedwith dioxin and they showed up
(15:11):
in their protective gear,respirators, knocked on the door
and they said we need to testyour home inside here and I said
For what?
And they said, well, we can'ttell you.
And that was how it all startedon that level of transparency
we can't tell you.
And what I saw from there wasdissembling mendacity.
(15:32):
And I worked very hard, alongwith others, to try to bring
about transparency.
So I want to jump to Leslie andsay Leslie, what brought you
into this story?
Leslie, the governmentaccountability project, what
happened?
Lesley Pacey (15:50):
Well, thank you, steve, and thanks for having us
and shining a light on thistragedy, because it is truly a
tragedy.
I have been investigating theBP oil spill and the playbook
that allowed BP to get away withcontaminating so many of our
beaches along the Gulf Coast andthe workers and residents for a
(16:12):
number of years.
And after the East Palestinetrain derailment happened and
the subsequent burning, we weresort of just following it in the
news and I kept seeing Scott'sname come up and on his newscast
.
And here's this guy that's, youknow, I hadn't heard of before,
(16:33):
maybe should have, but he wasout there doing tests and
telling the residents whatreally was going on with their
homes and their community andtheir health, and he was really
like just a godsend to thiscommunity.
So and then simultaneously wewere seeing news reports that
showed that certain scientistswere very critical of the EPA's
(16:59):
role in the response and sayingthings like well, why didn't
they test for dioxin sooner?
That's a no brainer, you shouldhave done that right away.
And it took a petition ofmultiple residents and a number
of other things, you knowreaching out to lawmakers and
things of that nature to get thetesting started there.
(17:20):
And that was, I want to sayMarch, late March or mid March.
So right off, right off,there's red flags going off.
You know why isn't the EPAlooking at this and what's their
resistance to this?
And the scientists werecriticizing it.
Scott was there findingproblems, finding dioxins, and
(17:43):
so we reached out to Scott andyou know we just started working
together.
The government accountabilityproject has started an
investigation into what reallyhappened and usually what we do
we did this with BP as well.
We have a fourth report comingout in a couple of weeks on the
(18:03):
BP OLSPEL.
What we do is we takeaffidavits from residents,
whistleblowers, we justinvestigate the situation as
much as possible.
We have scientists that wespeak with and Scott was really
at the center of all thisbecause he already knew the
residents.
He's helped connect us withpeople and sort of get more
(18:24):
engaged in the community, andwhat we found so far in their
few months that we've been I'vebeen back, I've been to East
Palestine twice, going again forthe anniversary, which is
February 3rd, and what we foundout is pretty horrific.
You know the health symptomsthat began with this whole event
(18:47):
are continuing.
There are residents that havebeen temporarily relocated to
housing outside the community.
When they come home to theirhouses, they experienced the
bloody noses again, theheadaches, the dizziness,
vomiting, you name it.
And then there's residents thathave had lots of exposure to
(19:09):
the community, haven't gottenout of the community and they're
experiencing some pretty freakythings, like, you know rapid
tooth decay.
Some people have reported thatall their teeth have to be
removed.
There's something going on withthat.
People are having eye issues.
They had a run on asthmainhalers because there was so
(19:31):
much of an eat there for them.
Brashes continue.
People have lost all their hair.
So Common Sense tells you, evenif there wasn't a Scotsmith
involved in all this, commonSense tells you EPA waited too
long to do the testing.
Epa is using Norfolk Southern'scontractors to, you know,
(19:52):
continue the narrative thateverything's safe and there's
nothing to see here.
And people are sick.
People are truly sick andthey're terrified to go back
home.
Or, if they're there, many ofthem want to leave but can't
afford to leave.
So in part, you know, we'rehoping to help those residents
by, you know, perhaps gettingthem a way to get out if they so
(20:15):
desire.
You know, maybe some governmentassistance, and we're also
trying to shine a light on, youknow, this is a playbook.
This is how it works in America.
You have a disaster, theresponsible party and the EPA
work hand in hand, at the top ofthat triangle of responsibility
in these unified commandstructure, and they work
(20:39):
together and they work withthese contractors that are paid
by the polluter, and so it's nota system set up really to
protect public health, it's asystem set up to protect these
multi-billion dollarcorporations.
Steve Taylor (20:53):
There's another playbook and that's like let's
attack the residents.
Scott, Leslie, what the reasonI wanted to bring you on today
is.
I have been reading that Scottreceived a subpoena from
Northfolk Southern.
Could, Leslie, Scott, either ofyou tell me more about that?
Scott Smith (21:17):
So I was out in East Palestine for a community
presentation that I gave onOctober 18th and update I was,
you know, at the Clevelandairport.
Flying back, when I live onCape Cod, the sheriff Barnsville
County Sheriff called me andsaid we're looking to serve you
with a subpoena.
So I called my personalattorney and said Brian, I'm not
(21:45):
involved in any litigation.
Now I'm told this is a thirdparty subpoena.
Could this really be NorthfolkSouthern?
Could they really be this thisstupid for poking me in the eye?
They don't know what they'remessing with.
So, sure enough, got home,called the sheriff.
He came to my driveway it wasNorfolk Southern Supining me for
(22:08):
all my communications to media,all my communications to
residents, all my testing, andthis is all private stuff.
So and again, I'm not a lawyer,but in my view, violet, you can
see my response I sent to you,violating free speech,
constitutional rights, designedto intimidate and threaten me
(22:29):
and, it's funny, even theexperts on my team and
everything.
Most people get all stressedout about subpoenas, but I've
been you know the expressionthrowing bare rabbit in the
briar patch, so they literallymade my day.
They clearly didn't do thebackground.
They had a bunch.
They probably had a bunch ofarrogant people sitting on Zoom
calls, not on the ground,thinking they could silence me.
(22:51):
So we worked with the governmentaccountability project, thank
God, and would helped us comingup with a response, and my
lawyer sent it off to them andthey threatened.
You know, even beforeThanksgiving they were
threatening well, we're gonnafile a motion to compel, you
gotta comply, and all thesethings.
And we basically told them, meand my attorney, stop
(23:15):
threatening.
You know where I live,obviously, file the motion to
compel, we'll see you in court,we'll bring the media, we'll
bring the cameras.
I still have faith, for themost part, in the justice system
and I don't see any judge, evenif it's a multi-billion dollar
company, making an exception toviolate someone's constitutional
(23:37):
rights.
Steve Taylor (23:39):
It seems to me, is that they're bringing the heat,
or at least they're trying toyou say you're fine with it.
I guess what I think you'resuggesting is maybe even use it
to bring more attention to thePalestine tragedy, or maybe do
discovery yourself.
But is it accurate to say thatyou feel that they're attempting
(24:00):
to intimidate you?
Scott Smith (24:01):
Oh, not just a.
Yeah.
They have attempted tointimidate me, but I can tell
you from the media calls I get,there's a major smear and
defamation campaign going onthat's being coordinated and led
by a guy named Mark Durna, withthe EPA, along with others to
be named, and the railroaditself accusing me of making up
(24:24):
videos, accusing me of usingdirty shovels and none of the
data suggests that.
And the reality of thesituation.
And I've offered to test sideby side on record over and over
again and to this day with therailroad, with the EPA, they
refuse.
I offered to meet with aresident with the railroad, as
long as there was reciprocity,meaning they show me their
(24:48):
detailed, raw reports.
I show them all the details onmine.
They only want a one-way street, so something.
They have a lot to hide and wewill see what happens with this.
And they just, you know theypick the wrong guy to mess with
(25:09):
on this.
Because I'm stubborn, I don'tgive up and I will fight to the
death against all thiscorruption, until it's exposed
in front of millions andmillions of people.
Steve Taylor (25:21):
So, along with your allegations that there's a
smear campaign, you're sayingyou're confident that you'd be
willing to put up your sciencealongside their science and take
a close look at it.
Scott Smith (25:33):
That's correct.
Then, and also the smearcampaign.
I don't say that lightly,because this is coming in from
residents willing to doaffidavits.
It's coming in from mediaThings they are are saying about
me that are, you know, justsimply not true, which is fine.
I welcome that and I welcomethis discussion because I think
(25:55):
they're used to mean evenexperts on my team.
If they got subpoenaed, theywas like Scott you stressed out,
and I'm like I'm a uniqueindividual Leslie will probably
just say that's anunderstatement because this
motivates me what they've done.
I know this scares a lot ofpeople.
They're using their typicalplaybook on me, but now this has
motivated me.
I'm on the mission that muchmore to get the truth out.
Steve Taylor (26:19):
Well, Scott, you must be a very courageous person
.
Scott Smith (26:24):
You get, whether it's East Palestine or other
things.
We have a right to free speechin in.
You know all this talk ofdemocracy, democracy.
Well, we don't have ourconstitutional rights and free
speech.
We have no democracy, and I saythat across all political
aisles.
Everyone needs to watch out,because anybody listening to
this it could be you next.
You could be the next ScottSmith.
(26:45):
If you speak up in yourcommunity about anything, you
could be targeted next by thegovernment that is that is doing
the bidding and the dirty workof the multi billion dollar
corporations.
Steve Taylor (26:56):
It is a scary proposition and and there's even
a term for it a slap suit.
I mean, technically you're not,this isn't a suit, but you know
I it seems to be a bit of in inin the playbook when, when
residents, citizens are aredealing with a huge chemical
disaster, that those who aretrying to navigate it and help
(27:20):
bring information into acommunity often find themselves
entangled in in what we couldcharacterize as a slap,
something meant to intimidateand to that point of of free
speech.
I wanted to bring something toLeslie.
Leslie, I have a press releaseby the government accountability
project and it's entitled foryou for EPA records on Facebook
(27:44):
censorship of East Palestineposts filed.
Yes, yes.
Yes so tell us a little bitwhat's going on there.
It seems like this is even abit beyond the subpoena.
I think maybe it happenedafterwards, but but there were
attempts to are.
There were requests or demandsthat content related to
(28:05):
contamination In in opinionsexpressed about it be taken down
from Facebook.
Lesley Pacey (28:11):
There's some really strange things going on
here, and I agree with you,first off, that this is the
beginnings of what could be aslap suit against Scott, and I
do feel like it's definitelyaimed at intimidating him and if
, honestly, if his resultsaren't, you know, carrying
weight, then why would they needto do this?
(28:32):
Now, as for the FOIA EPA FOIAon Facebook the reason that we
started that was because Scottnoticed that he was receiving
messages from Facebook and Scottcorrect me if I'm wrong that he
was in threat of his goodstanding, was being threatened
because he had posted aHuffington post article on
(28:55):
synergistic toxicity and he'sPalestine and they, you know,
flag that post, and they flagthat post for one of the most
outspoken residents there aswell, and it looked like it was
just being blocked.
So we thought that was reallyweird, because this is a, you
know, a news, the news newsagency that is very, very well
(29:19):
respected and it's an importantarticle, and so why would they
take that down?
In addition to that, I've hadreports from residents that Mark
Dernaud had reached out to them.
This is there again theHomeland Security arm of the EPA
and Region 5 there.
Who's over the East Palestineresponse.
(29:42):
He's reached out to activistsin the community and told them I
suggest you take this post downon Facebook.
It's not accurate.
We've also had really weirdstuff going on that we haven't
even mentioned yet, but since wefiled the FOIA, I've had other
residents reach out to me withsimilar situations.
(30:02):
One of the residents wasspeaking at a hearing for any
for on East Palestine onFebruary 23rd.
That post was on Facebook,received about, I want to say,
207,000 likes or views, and thenthat number has remained the
(30:24):
same since March when it wentcrazy viral, and so in the also,
I've had residents say well,you know, in the very beginning
of all this, whenever we triedto share posts of the fire in
the blaze that was going on allthese chemicals, they were being
taken down repeatedly byFacebook.
(30:44):
So we're wanting to know, youknow, anything on Facebook that
EPA is involved with.
We want to know what kind ofcontracts they have with
Facebook.
We want to know what kind ofinternal communications they've
had and any posts that EPAofficials have made on Facebook
regarding East Palestine and Inamed a few residents in there.
(31:06):
I probably should have put inmore now that I'm hearing from
some of these folks, but youknow.
Additionally, outside ofFacebook, some really weird
stuff is going on to.
Durna had reached out to one ofthe community groups that's
been outspoken about healtheffects and said you know what
you know?
I've seen your newsletter.
Let me get in and edit it,would you let me do that?
(31:28):
So I mean just, it just feelslike you know government
interference and I'm not sure ifit's coming from the railroad
or some shareholders they haveat Facebook that have mutual
interest in the railroad or ifit's strictly any of those EPA
situation.
But we can FOIA that.
(31:48):
So that's what we did.
Steve Taylor (31:50):
Has there been a response to FOIA?
Have you gotten any informationor is this something a work in
progress?
Lesley Pacey (31:57):
It's a work in progress.
It's a brand new FOIA.
I think we followed it lastweek, so it'll be a while.
We have two other FOIAs out tothe EPA on dioxins and acrolein
and some other things, as wellas any communications related to
Scott Smith.
We filed a lawsuit on the firstone because they said they
needed more time to do it.
They also denied us a feewaiver at government
(32:21):
accountability project.
We have never in 45 years beendenied a fee waiver for
production of these FOIAdocuments.
So and those FOIAs can getquite expensive.
Steve Taylor (32:33):
So, scott, what does your testing suggest is
happening in the East Palestine,and how does it differ from
what the EPA is saying?
Scott Smith (32:43):
Great question.
First of all, I use the EPA ison record.
They don't question my labresults.
I use urethans, one of probablythe best lab in the country for
dioxins and other compounds,and what I'm doing differently
from the EPA is I'm going totest residents that are close to
(33:04):
the derailment site that arehaving health symptoms.
The EPA has refused to testtheir soil outside their home.
They've refused to test insidethe home, air and surfaces,
which doesn't make any sense.
So I am finding in places likethat, elevated dioxin levels
(33:28):
above background.
Now I won't get into all thetechnical information, but we're
now up to 43 percent of ourtesting are way above background
.
Just to give you one example,without getting into too much of
the weeds, six parts pertrillion of dioxins is something
(33:50):
that is called background in acommunity where there hasn't
been to realmen or a majorcontamination.
So 43 percent of our samplesare way above that.
So what we are detecting isso-called hot spots within East
Palestine.
(34:10):
Now there is some good news isthis is so complicated, no one
understands the movements andthe wind patterns.
But the good news is somewherebetween 60 to 70 percent of my
testing results are comingwithin background.
Now the EPA pulled the triggeron me with Mark Durna and the
Smear campaign because if I wereusing dirty shovels and doing
(34:34):
all these things they'reaccusing me of, which I believe
they're accusing me of doing thethings they're doing I've
pointed out on other media.
My results actually believe itor not probably limit the
liability of the railroad, butat the same time, it does point
to the real hot spots of theaffected areas.
So we're finding dioxins.
(34:56):
We're also finding a suite ofbenzene-related compounds called
semi-volatile organic compounds.
In these areas we're seeing afingerprint, just like a human
has a fingerprint when youcommit any crime or robbery or
murder.
These fingerprints from burningof PVC resin, cars smoldering
(35:20):
is not like you're getting.
Here's another again isdeception from the EPA.
Oh, these dioxins were createdfrom your barbecue grill in your
backyard.
There's a whole differentfingerprint that comes from
these chemical spills anddisasters.
So we're detecting thesefingerprints too.
That's why, steve, I've invitedthe EPA and the railroad to
(35:42):
test side by side with me.
Why wouldn't they do that?
I'm very transparent.
If I were doing something wrongor they tested side by side,
I'd be the first one to correctit.
They won't meet with me onbehalf of the community to share
in reciprocity all the details.
They will not test side by sidewith me.
Instead, they're doing allthese things that may indeed
(36:06):
violate my constitutional rights.
You, basically the EPA,stalking me with my private
address, undermining me.
So it would be a lot easier.
If Scott Smith is so wrong, gofilm it.
I'd even say invite the media,do it side by side.
Let's take side by side tests,send them to the same in
(36:27):
different labs and see where weare.
They will not do that.
Steve Taylor (36:31):
Wow, that's amazing.
I mean it just sounds sofamiliar in a way.
We tried so hard to get splitsampling.
It was so hard to get data.
I mean there was, you know,state agencies had just gotten
rid of data after a certainperiod of time.
It was so hard to get conjurerspecific data.
We never got some conjurerspecific data, which is the
(36:53):
particular fingerprint you'retalking about.
I believe Absolutely.
Yeah, this is the conjurerspecific, the toxic equivalency.
I mean you can't just say, oh,there's just dioxin, you got all
these other things.
There's amplifying effects.
It just amazes me that theywon't do something side by side
with you.
It sounds like you're veryconfident in your science.
You work with a team of experts, is that so, scott?
Scott Smith (37:16):
I've had PhDs, toxicologists, reach out to me
and volunteer around me, so I'vespent a lot of money.
I'm kind of the front man outthere in the public, but the
science team, they're there.
They did a society ofenvironmental toxicology and
chemistry.
We did a poster presentation.
That's all in the public.
I think you've seen that, andthe team has all reached out to
(37:37):
me.
They have over 150 years ofexperience in dioxins and other
chemicals.
One gentleman on the team wasthe number two guy at the Ohio
EPA and one of the other guysinvolved, bruce Vigon, has a
tremendous background instatistics too and they look at
all this stuff.
So we're assembling data andwe're doing everything by the
(37:59):
book.
We're testing where the EPA andthe railroad refused to test.
They would get the same resultswe're getting.
Steve Taylor (38:07):
I applaud you for your efforts to shine a light on
what's happening in EastPalestine.
Is there anything that Ihaven't asked you that either of
you would like to address?
Lesley Pacey (38:19):
One thing I also want to mention, very thankful
for Scott and his team, but alsothankful for the community.
I think EPA in the North, northor Southern vastly
underestimated the community ofEast Palestine.
This is a smart group of people.
They've got a fighting spirit,they're organized and there's a
(38:43):
very good number of peoplewithin the community that are
keeping notes on everything andthey're making things happen.
So I think I want to make thatpoint.
We do have quite a number ofwitnesses that are telling us
some really amazing things thatyou wouldn't hear from the EPA
or any of the contractors wouldbe opposite pretty much of what
(39:06):
you're hearing.
But we can always take morestatements from residents, first
responders.
We would love to have some EPAwhistleblowers.
We would love to have morescientists and maybe even some
Norfolk Southern contractorsthat have seen things that
they're not comfortable with.
We can keep those peopleanonymous to protect their jobs,
(39:29):
but we really want to get outthe truth and we will get out
the truth here.
Scott Smith (39:35):
I think this is a turning point for the entire
country and, with what I saidbefore and I think that the
people coming together on thisare unprecedented to get the
truth out and obviously I'm veryappreciative and grateful for
Leslie and the governmentaccountability project I
couldn't continue to do this andif it weren't for the
(39:55):
government accountabilityproject and Leslie, maybe that
subpoena would have had aneffect on me.
Steve Taylor (40:01):
Leslie Scott.
Thank you for joining us onBreaking Green.
Lesley Pacey (40:05):
Thank you.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Steve Taylor (40:08):
You have been listening to Breaking Green a
global justice ecology projectpodcast.
To learn more about globaljustice ecology project, visit
globaljusticeecologyorg.
Breaking Green is made possibleby tax deductible donations by
people like you.
These help us lift up thevoices of those working to
(40:28):
protect forests, defend humanrights and expose false
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That's 1-716-257-4187.
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