August 20, 2025 • 22 mins
The Marshall Islands face dual threats from the legacy of U.S. nuclear testing and the advancing impacts of climate change, creating an urgent struggle for justice and survival.
On this episode of Breaking Green we are going to speak with Shem Livai.
Shem Livai is a Director at Marshalls Energy Company in the Marshall Islands. He is a Ph.D. candidate in Creative Leadership for Innovation and Change from the University of the Virgin Islands, he has an MBA from the University of the South Pacific, and a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Hawai‘i.
Text GIVE to 17162574187 to support Breaking Green's work lifting up the voices of those protecting forests, defending human rights and exposing false solutions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Breaking Green, a podcast by Global
Justice Ecology Project.
On Breaking Green, we will talkwith activists and experts to
examine the intertwined issuesof social, ecological and
economic injustice.
We will also explore some ofthe more outrageous proposals to
address climate andenvironmental crises that are
(00:23):
falsely being sold as green.
I am your host, steve Taylor.
On this episode of BreakingGreen we will be talking with
(00:45):
Shem Levi, a PhD student andMarshallese resident.
Without consent of the localpopulation, the Marshallese
Islands were used in the 40s and50s by the United States
government for nuclear testing.
Open-air nuclear testing wasdone in the continental United
(01:06):
States.
The testing in the MarshalleseIslands was so extensive it
required relocation of entirepopulations.
Actually, in 1951, the UnitedStates Air Force made a film on
the reasons and methods of theirnuclear testing.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
The next day after zero hour.
We see the reason for thisconcentration on the weather jar
.
We see its relation to the hugefact which remains after every
nuclear detonation the atomiccloud, the towering angry ghost
of the fireball.
The payoff is knowledge of windspeeds and wind directions
(01:53):
After the explosion.
Air Force helicopters surveyand monitor the acres of blast
area with sensitive radiationcounters.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Shem Levi, welcome to Breaking Green.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Hello everyone and thank you for having me.
It's an honor to share thestory of the Marshall Islands
and our ongoing struggle forjustice, not just climate
justice but historical justice.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Right.
Could you tell our listeners alittle bit about the Marshall
Islands, where they're located?
They are Central PacificIslands, I believe, but could
you help our listenersunderstand the nature of the
Marshall Islands?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
geographically.
Yes, so the Marshall Islands isa quick not a quick, but it's
pretty much a four-and-a a halfhours flight from Honolulu to
Majuro.
There's only one flight thatgoes to the Marshall Islands,
(02:57):
which is on United Airlines.
So Marshall Islands used to bea US territory back in the days
(03:17):
until it gained independencearound 1986, I believe.
But we do have a closepartnership with the United
States, which is called theCompact Free Association.
This allows our citizens herein the Marshall Islands to
travel freely to and from the USwithout having a green card or
(03:38):
visa.
This allows our citizens tolook for better opportunities in
(03:59):
the US, such as employment,medical and education for the
kids and young adults.
So, yeah, I mean, there's 29coral atolls and five main
islands here and interestingenough is the population used to
be around 60,000 back in the90s and 2000s, but right now I
(04:26):
believe the population is reallydoing down due to high
migration citizens going to theUnited States.
Last count was around I believeit was 32,000 to 37,000
citizens now here in theMarshall Islands.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
In the Marshall Islands.
There's a long history ofdifferent nations imposing their
will upon the islands.
Could you give us a briefhistorical?
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
So we first had the Spanish come in first for the
world trading during the worldtrading times.
I cannot the the year, I'm nottoo sure.
(05:08):
I think it's the mid-16thcentury, that's when the Spanish
came for oil trading.
Then you had the.
After the Spanish you had theGermans coming in and they were
very interested in copra trading, and copra is pretty much
(05:33):
coconut oil.
After World War I, which theywere gifted, I guess, by the UN,
to take over most of thePacific Islands, and then after
World War II, you had the UStaking over the control of the
(05:59):
islands from the Japanese Empire, the Japanese empire, and this
we were talking about around1946, when the United States
took control of the MarshallIslands until 1986, when
Marshall Islands finally gottheir sovereignty and
independence in 1986.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
But you say that the population is dwindling.
So what are some of thechallenges?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Oh yeah, of course, as I mentioned, there's three
big services that is lackinghere in the Marshall Islands I
want to say lacking but stillneeds some development which is
education, medical and jobsecurity.
(06:52):
So these top three things arethe main cause of these citizens
migrating into the UnitedStates for better opportunities,
United States for betteropportunities.
And of course we have, as Imentioned, with the medical,
it's a huge contribution fromthe nuclear testing that's been
(07:15):
happening since 1946 to 1958.
If a brief history of theMarshall Islands is that nobody,
not a lot of people, know about, is between the year of 1946 to
1958, there were close to 67nuclear weapons that were
(07:38):
detonated in our islands, andI'm sure you've heard of the
Hiroshima bombs, and theHiroshima bombs were a lot
smaller and with the amount ofnuclear testing that was
(08:06):
detonated in our islands it'sequivalent to 1.6 Hiroshima
bombs every day for 12 years,which is a lot.
And of course, with thisdesignation there comes a lot of
contamination and pollutioninto the ocean and into the land
, which also contributes topoisoning of our food resources
and water resources.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yes, I am familiar with those tests.
I even remember colorfulmagazine covers that were a bit
before my time, from that timeand them talking about.
You know the tests in theMarshall Islands done by the
(08:45):
United States military, I think,using Navy ships and all of
that.
But there was just these openair experiments not experiments,
actually detonations ofwarheads in the area of the
islands.
I mean, how close were they tothe islands?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Yeah, most of the testing were exactly on land.
They were just bombing islandsand some of these islands have
disappeared.
These bombings, it's not thatit happened years ago, but we're
still living the consequencesof these bombings.
I mean, they're not going to goanywhere away anytime soon,
(09:26):
they're going to be here with usforever and we still need some
assistance from the US.
There's a lot of politicsinvolved, with the US and our
government trying to resolvethis issue of cleaning up the
contamination.
Resolved this issue of cleaningup the contamination and it's a
(09:51):
bigger test than what wasanticipated.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
So did they remove the population, or were people
just present when it was done?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
There's no doubt people who were left on the
islands or left near the bombingsites were definitely left
there for a purpose.
Sadly to say, they weredefinitely used as guinea pigs
during the testing times.
Have these scientists goinginto the island population and
(10:30):
conduct testing and even flyingsome of these islanders
Marshallese, you would say tothe United States to conduct
extensive research on theaftermath of what a bomb would
do to a human body?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
How much radiation is left over?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
There's still radiation and it won't go away
anytime soon.
There's still radiation and itwon't go away anytime soon.
It's very sad because some ofthese islanders or Marshallese
that were living in thoseislands they still cannot,
because land is very sacred here.
There's not much land in theMarshall Islands.
(11:13):
The Marshall Islands isdefinitely not abundant with
land, so, sadly, some of thesetwo island groups I would say
two island atolls that stillhaven't returned to the island
due to contamination, which isRogelup Peas.
(11:36):
And then we have the Bikinians,who have been in exile for, um,
yeah, almost 70, 80 years now.
But, yeah, many of these peopleare still living with the
trauma and consequences of thenuclear colonialism.
(11:59):
The entire islands, like Bikini, remain unhandable.
Generations have grown up inexile on land not their own,
with health issues passed downand, yeah, sadly it's not
history, but it's their present.
(12:20):
It's not going away, they'reliving it day to day.
It's not something thathappened yesterday, it's an
ongoing issue that they faceevery day.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
So when you say some people are living in exile, are
they in other islands in theMarshall complex?
Speaker 3 (12:44):
They are living in islands, in the Marshall Islands
that were basically uninhabited.
Uninhabited, I mean some ofthese islands you can't even
grow food on, like vegetables orbear fruits.
So there are stuff on islandsthat cannot bear fruit for them
(13:12):
to be sustainable or able toprovide food for them to be
sustainable or able to providefood for them.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Is there a sense that there should be more
recognition by the United Statesor more awareness about this?
Speaker 3 (13:41):
awareness, uh, about this, um, that's a good question
because, like I said, it'sreally ongoing um issue and
still, um, it has not come to apositive end to it.
Um, a lot of politics involved.
They've been going back andforth.
Of course, the US does not wantto acknowledge that they're at
(14:02):
fault, but they yeah, I can goon and on.
There's still some compensationthat was not fulfilled by the
US.
We're talking millions ofdollars that were supposed to be
given out to the families whowere affected by the bombing, by
(14:23):
the nuclear bombs.
Sadly, most of these people whowere affected by the nuclear
bombs, like they actually hadhealth issues, cancer.
They actually had health issues, cancer.
They've all passed away and nowthey have.
(14:44):
Some of them didn't have kidsbecause of the cancer they had.
Sadly, some of the females,they couldn't bore any kids
because of the cancer in theirbody.
It wouldn't allow them toprocreate.
It's a very dark past that somepeople don't want to talk about
(15:09):
.
Some still want to seek justice, still want to seek justice and
it's just very, very hard toget justice when a country that
is ten or million times strongerthan you.
It's a.
It's a hard fight.
(15:31):
It's not a winning fight forjust a small nation trying to
seek justice when it's upagainst a titan like the United
States.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
So I think you used the term nuclear colonialism.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
One of the reasons we wanted you on the show was to
actually talk a bit aboutclimate change too, and the
effects on these islands in thePacific.
Tuvalu was going to be one ofthe first islands to have its
(16:18):
population removed because ofrising sea level.
Do you know anything about that?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
I mean Tuvalu is no different than the Marshall
Islands.
There's four atoll nations inthe world, which consists of the
Marshall Islands, tuvalu,kiribati and then you have the
Maldives.
When I say atoll nations, thesenations are not made out of
(16:51):
islands, but atolls, islands butatolls.
So we're all facing the sameissues with climate change.
I mean, we all are goingthrough the climate change
threats.
We're not just losing land, butwe're losing our identity,
(17:17):
culture and our future.
I mean, once the island's gone,once we all relocate to another
country, it won't be the same.
Majuro now has lost 40% of itsland mass.
It's already below sea level.
Saltwater intrusion is alreadydestroying crops and freshwater
(17:38):
sources.
Freshwater lenses, coastalerosion and king tides are
becoming more severe and moreusually, king tides happen
during the early, I believe,november to February, around the
winter's time, but now they'rebecoming frequent.
(18:01):
They happen either every monthor every other month and it's
scary.
Out there, a lot of people areusing their homes.
So, yeah, like for us, climatechange is not a future threat,
it's a daily reality.
(18:21):
I mean, we're watching ourcemeteries wash away, our crops
fail, our freshwater wells turnsalty.
It is just.
This is not just anenvironmental collapse, it's a
cultural erasure.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Describe an atoll a little bit.
I mean, it's different than anisland.
There's coral, there's an innerlagoon.
Could you explain what an atollis?
Speaker 3 (18:49):
The atoll is basically a ring-shaped coral
reef.
It's typically formed when avolcanic island subsides and the
surrounding coral reef growsupward to form the ring with a
lagoon in the center where theislands once existed.
So we have around, I believe,24 of those atolls, and it's
(19:14):
great because in the lagoon iswhere we would sail and go back
and forth to each islands, andthen we have the lagoon side,
the ocean side.
The ocean side is more roughwhereas open ocean.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
So what in common do the Tuvalu and the Marshallese
have in common now with climatechange?
You were saying the Marshalleseare leaving.
People from Tuvalu are leavingas well.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah, of course I'm not too sure if our facilities
here are better than what Tuvaluhas, but definitely the influx
in migrants from Tuvalu.
They're definitely here foremployment.
But, like I said, tuvalu andMarshall Islands are atoll
(20:19):
nations and we're facing thesame issues with climate change,
with king tide, erosion,erratic weather changes,
droughts.
So when it comes to nature, andwe have the same atolls per se,
(20:46):
so how dire how hard is climatechange impacting?
Oh yeah, like I mentioned theyWith the coastal erosion and
king tides.
They affected a lot of thecrops, the freshwater wells
(21:12):
homes, homes that are next tothe coastal areas.
We've seen a lot of changeswith our bread, fruits, the
coconuts.
They don't grow as well as backthen.
There's some crops that we usedto rely on don't grow anymore,
(21:40):
so we are more dependent onimports, such as canned food and
outside food sources fromstores, instead of relying more
on our crops.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
You used the term nuclear colonialism.
Does it make sense to talkabout climate colonialism?
Is there a similarity?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
And with the nuclear colonialism that we've been
facing for many, many years nowwith the same, with climate
(22:39):
change, it has affected a lot ofthe local people.
Change it has affected a lot ofthe local people and that's
caused them to migrate and moveelsewhere?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Do you think it's just part of the United States'
plan to let things collapse andthe Marshallese people disperse
and then you know you don't haveto address history?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
people disperse and then you know you don't have to
address history.
I don't really like to think it.
I really want to be positiveabout it.
I just hope that in the nearfuture, I mean things will be.
But yeah, I mean, we in theMarshall Islands are very
resilient.
There's so much ties to theislands that many of us don't
(23:36):
want to leave.
This is our home and this iswhere we feel comfortable and we
rather live our lives here inthe islands instead of being
nomads in the US and workingaway and paying taxes and just.
I've been to the US.
I've contemplated moving myfamily to the US, but every time
(23:58):
we go there it's just verydepressing.
I would say there's a lot ofmoney, involvement, a lot of
money talk like taxes, bills,but here in the Marshall Islands
there's not much of that.
But you're just living the lifeand it's pretty laid back and
(24:23):
not very stressful that I wouldsay compared to the life in the
United States.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
So let's talk about you a little bit.
You're pursuing a doctorate, aPhD.
Could you tell us a little bitabout that?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, so I'm going to the University of Virgin
Islands.
It's been a few years now.
I've been working on my paper,which is titled Creative
Leadership Approaches thatEnable Transformative Climate
Adaptation Pathways in theRepublic of the Marshall Islands
Republic of the MarshallIslands.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Well, let me ask you this, Shem Do you think people
in the Marshallese Islands havehope that climate change is
going to be addressed in anymeaningful way.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I mean, we're definitely not going to give up
our islands.
We are trying our best to keepour islands as is.
But if relocation becomesinevitable, it must be done on
(25:42):
our terms, with dignity, justiceand full recognition of our
sovereignty.
There's nothing more.
But we do not want to be justmigrants.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Thank you, shem Levi, for joining us on Breaking
Green.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
You have been listening to Breaking Green a
Global Justice Ecology Projectpodcast, thank you.
Please help us lift up thevoices of those working to
protect forests, defend humanrights and expose false
solutions.
Simply text GIVE to 17162574187.
(26:41):
That's 17162574187.
Welcome to Breaking Green, a podcast by Global
Justice Ecology Project.
On Breaking Green, we will talkwith activists and experts to
examine the intertwined issuesof social, ecological and
economic injustice.
We will also explore some ofthe more outrageous proposals to
address climate andenvironmental crises that are
(00:23):
falsely being sold as green.
I am your host, steve Taylor.
On this episode of BreakingGreen we will be talking with
(00:45):
Shem Levi, a PhD student andMarshallese resident.
Without consent of the localpopulation, the Marshallese
Islands were used in the 40s and50s by the United States
government for nuclear testing.
Open-air nuclear testing wasdone in the continental United
(01:06):
States.
The testing in the MarshalleseIslands was so extensive it
required relocation of entirepopulations.
Actually, in 1951, the UnitedStates Air Force made a film on
the reasons and methods of theirnuclear testing.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
The next day after zero hour.
We see the reason for thisconcentration on the weather jar
.
We see its relation to the hugefact which remains after every
nuclear detonation the atomiccloud, the towering angry ghost
of the fireball.
The payoff is knowledge of windspeeds and wind directions
(01:53):
After the explosion.
Air Force helicopters surveyand monitor the acres of blast
area with sensitive radiationcounters.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Shem Levi, welcome to Breaking Green.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Hello everyone and thank you for having me.
It's an honor to share thestory of the Marshall Islands
and our ongoing struggle forjustice, not just climate
justice but historical justice.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Right.
Could you tell our listeners alittle bit about the Marshall
Islands, where they're located?
They are Central PacificIslands, I believe, but could
you help our listenersunderstand the nature of the
Marshall Islands?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
geographically.
Yes, so the Marshall Islands isa quick not a quick, but it's
pretty much a four-and-a a halfhours flight from Honolulu to
Majuro.
There's only one flight thatgoes to the Marshall Islands,
(02:57):
which is on United Airlines.
So Marshall Islands used to bea US territory back in the days
(03:17):
until it gained independencearound 1986, I believe.
But we do have a closepartnership with the United
States, which is called theCompact Free Association.
This allows our citizens herein the Marshall Islands to
travel freely to and from the USwithout having a green card or
(03:38):
visa.
This allows our citizens tolook for better opportunities in
(03:59):
the US, such as employment,medical and education for the
kids and young adults.
So, yeah, I mean, there's 29coral atolls and five main
islands here and interestingenough is the population used to
be around 60,000 back in the90s and 2000s, but right now I
(04:26):
believe the population is reallydoing down due to high
migration citizens going to theUnited States.
Last count was around I believeit was 32,000 to 37,000
citizens now here in theMarshall Islands.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
In the Marshall Islands.
There's a long history ofdifferent nations imposing their
will upon the islands.
Could you give us a briefhistorical?
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
So we first had the Spanish come in first for the
world trading during the worldtrading times.
I cannot the the year, I'm nottoo sure.
(05:08):
I think it's the mid-16thcentury, that's when the Spanish
came for oil trading.
Then you had the.
After the Spanish you had theGermans coming in and they were
very interested in copra trading, and copra is pretty much
(05:33):
coconut oil.
After World War I, which theywere gifted, I guess, by the UN,
to take over most of thePacific Islands, and then after
World War II, you had the UStaking over the control of the
(05:59):
islands from the Japanese Empire, the Japanese empire, and this
we were talking about around1946, when the United States
took control of the MarshallIslands until 1986, when
Marshall Islands finally gottheir sovereignty and
independence in 1986.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
But you say that the population is dwindling.
So what are some of thechallenges?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Oh yeah, of course, as I mentioned, there's three
big services that is lackinghere in the Marshall Islands I
want to say lacking but stillneeds some development which is
education, medical and jobsecurity.
(06:52):
So these top three things arethe main cause of these citizens
migrating into the UnitedStates for better opportunities,
United States for betteropportunities.
And of course we have, as Imentioned, with the medical,
it's a huge contribution fromthe nuclear testing that's been
(07:15):
happening since 1946 to 1958.
If a brief history of theMarshall Islands is that nobody,
not a lot of people, know about, is between the year of 1946 to
1958, there were close to 67nuclear weapons that were
(07:38):
detonated in our islands, andI'm sure you've heard of the
Hiroshima bombs, and theHiroshima bombs were a lot
smaller and with the amount ofnuclear testing that was
(08:06):
detonated in our islands it'sequivalent to 1.6 Hiroshima
bombs every day for 12 years,which is a lot.
And of course, with thisdesignation there comes a lot of
contamination and pollutioninto the ocean and into the land
, which also contributes topoisoning of our food resources
and water resources.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yes, I am familiar with those tests.
I even remember colorfulmagazine covers that were a bit
before my time, from that timeand them talking about.
You know the tests in theMarshall Islands done by the
(08:45):
United States military, I think,using Navy ships and all of
that.
But there was just these openair experiments not experiments,
actually detonations ofwarheads in the area of the
islands.
I mean, how close were they tothe islands?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Yeah, most of the testing were exactly on land.
They were just bombing islandsand some of these islands have
disappeared.
These bombings, it's not thatit happened years ago, but we're
still living the consequencesof these bombings.
I mean, they're not going to goanywhere away anytime soon,
(09:26):
they're going to be here with usforever and we still need some
assistance from the US.
There's a lot of politicsinvolved, with the US and our
government trying to resolvethis issue of cleaning up the
contamination.
Resolved this issue of cleaningup the contamination and it's a
(09:51):
bigger test than what wasanticipated.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
So did they remove the population, or were people
just present when it was done?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
There's no doubt people who were left on the
islands or left near the bombingsites were definitely left
there for a purpose.
Sadly to say, they weredefinitely used as guinea pigs
during the testing times.
Have these scientists goinginto the island population and
(10:30):
conduct testing and even flyingsome of these islanders
Marshallese, you would say tothe United States to conduct
extensive research on theaftermath of what a bomb would
do to a human body?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
How much radiation is left over?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
There's still radiation and it won't go away
anytime soon.
There's still radiation and itwon't go away anytime soon.
It's very sad because some ofthese islanders or Marshallese
that were living in thoseislands they still cannot,
because land is very sacred here.
There's not much land in theMarshall Islands.
(11:13):
The Marshall Islands isdefinitely not abundant with
land, so, sadly, some of thesetwo island groups I would say
two island atolls that stillhaven't returned to the island
due to contamination, which isRogelup Peas.
(11:36):
And then we have the Bikinians,who have been in exile for, um,
yeah, almost 70, 80 years now.
But, yeah, many of these peopleare still living with the
trauma and consequences of thenuclear colonialism.
(11:59):
The entire islands, like Bikini, remain unhandable.
Generations have grown up inexile on land not their own,
with health issues passed downand, yeah, sadly it's not
history, but it's their present.
(12:20):
It's not going away, they'reliving it day to day.
It's not something thathappened yesterday, it's an
ongoing issue that they faceevery day.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
So when you say some people are living in exile, are
they in other islands in theMarshall complex?
Speaker 3 (12:44):
They are living in islands, in the Marshall Islands
that were basically uninhabited.
Uninhabited, I mean some ofthese islands you can't even
grow food on, like vegetables orbear fruits.
So there are stuff on islandsthat cannot bear fruit for them
(13:12):
to be sustainable or able toprovide food for them to be
sustainable or able to providefood for them.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Is there a sense that there should be more
recognition by the United Statesor more awareness about this?
Speaker 3 (13:41):
awareness, uh, about this, um, that's a good question
because, like I said, it'sreally ongoing um issue and
still, um, it has not come to apositive end to it.
Um, a lot of politics involved.
They've been going back andforth.
Of course, the US does not wantto acknowledge that they're at
(14:02):
fault, but they yeah, I can goon and on.
There's still some compensationthat was not fulfilled by the
US.
We're talking millions ofdollars that were supposed to be
given out to the families whowere affected by the bombing, by
(14:23):
the nuclear bombs.
Sadly, most of these people whowere affected by the nuclear
bombs, like they actually hadhealth issues, cancer.
They actually had health issues, cancer.
They've all passed away and nowthey have.
(14:44):
Some of them didn't have kidsbecause of the cancer they had.
Sadly, some of the females,they couldn't bore any kids
because of the cancer in theirbody.
It wouldn't allow them toprocreate.
It's a very dark past that somepeople don't want to talk about
(15:09):
.
Some still want to seek justice, still want to seek justice and
it's just very, very hard toget justice when a country that
is ten or million times strongerthan you.
It's a.
It's a hard fight.
(15:31):
It's not a winning fight forjust a small nation trying to
seek justice when it's upagainst a titan like the United
States.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
So I think you used the term nuclear colonialism.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
One of the reasons we wanted you on the show was to
actually talk a bit aboutclimate change too, and the
effects on these islands in thePacific.
Tuvalu was going to be one ofthe first islands to have its
(16:18):
population removed because ofrising sea level.
Do you know anything about that?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
I mean Tuvalu is no different than the Marshall
Islands.
There's four atoll nations inthe world, which consists of the
Marshall Islands, tuvalu,kiribati and then you have the
Maldives.
When I say atoll nations, thesenations are not made out of
(16:51):
islands, but atolls, islands butatolls.
So we're all facing the sameissues with climate change.
I mean, we all are goingthrough the climate change
threats.
We're not just losing land, butwe're losing our identity,
(17:17):
culture and our future.
I mean, once the island's gone,once we all relocate to another
country, it won't be the same.
Majuro now has lost 40% of itsland mass.
It's already below sea level.
Saltwater intrusion is alreadydestroying crops and freshwater
(17:38):
sources.
Freshwater lenses, coastalerosion and king tides are
becoming more severe and moreusually, king tides happen
during the early, I believe,november to February, around the
winter's time, but now they'rebecoming frequent.
(18:01):
They happen either every monthor every other month and it's
scary.
Out there, a lot of people areusing their homes.
So, yeah, like for us, climatechange is not a future threat,
it's a daily reality.
(18:21):
I mean, we're watching ourcemeteries wash away, our crops
fail, our freshwater wells turnsalty.
It is just.
This is not just anenvironmental collapse, it's a
cultural erasure.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Describe an atoll a little bit.
I mean, it's different than anisland.
There's coral, there's an innerlagoon.
Could you explain what an atollis?
Speaker 3 (18:49):
The atoll is basically a ring-shaped coral
reef.
It's typically formed when avolcanic island subsides and the
surrounding coral reef growsupward to form the ring with a
lagoon in the center where theislands once existed.
So we have around, I believe,24 of those atolls, and it's
(19:14):
great because in the lagoon iswhere we would sail and go back
and forth to each islands, andthen we have the lagoon side,
the ocean side.
The ocean side is more roughwhereas open ocean.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
So what in common do the Tuvalu and the Marshallese
have in common now with climatechange?
You were saying the Marshalleseare leaving.
People from Tuvalu are leavingas well.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah, of course I'm not too sure if our facilities
here are better than what Tuvaluhas, but definitely the influx
in migrants from Tuvalu.
They're definitely here foremployment.
But, like I said, tuvalu andMarshall Islands are atoll
(20:19):
nations and we're facing thesame issues with climate change,
with king tide, erosion,erratic weather changes,
droughts.
So when it comes to nature, andwe have the same atolls per se,
(20:46):
so how dire how hard is climatechange impacting?
Oh yeah, like I mentioned theyWith the coastal erosion and
king tides.
They affected a lot of thecrops, the freshwater wells
(21:12):
homes, homes that are next tothe coastal areas.
We've seen a lot of changeswith our bread, fruits, the
coconuts.
They don't grow as well as backthen.
There's some crops that we usedto rely on don't grow anymore,
(21:40):
so we are more dependent onimports, such as canned food and
outside food sources fromstores, instead of relying more
on our crops.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
You used the term nuclear colonialism.
Does it make sense to talkabout climate colonialism?
Is there a similarity?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
And with the nuclear colonialism that we've been
facing for many, many years nowwith the same, with climate
(22:39):
change, it has affected a lot ofthe local people.
Change it has affected a lot ofthe local people and that's
caused them to migrate and moveelsewhere?
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Do you think it's just part of the United States'
plan to let things collapse andthe Marshallese people disperse
and then you know you don't haveto address history?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
people disperse and then you know you don't have to
address history.
I don't really like to think it.
I really want to be positiveabout it.
I just hope that in the nearfuture, I mean things will be.
But yeah, I mean, we in theMarshall Islands are very
resilient.
There's so much ties to theislands that many of us don't
(23:36):
want to leave.
This is our home and this iswhere we feel comfortable and we
rather live our lives here inthe islands instead of being
nomads in the US and workingaway and paying taxes and just.
I've been to the US.
I've contemplated moving myfamily to the US, but every time
(23:58):
we go there it's just verydepressing.
I would say there's a lot ofmoney, involvement, a lot of
money talk like taxes, bills,but here in the Marshall Islands
there's not much of that.
But you're just living the lifeand it's pretty laid back and
(24:23):
not very stressful that I wouldsay compared to the life in the
United States.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
So let's talk about you a little bit.
You're pursuing a doctorate, aPhD.
Could you tell us a little bitabout that?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, so I'm going to the University of Virgin
Islands.
It's been a few years now.
I've been working on my paper,which is titled Creative
Leadership Approaches thatEnable Transformative Climate
Adaptation Pathways in theRepublic of the Marshall Islands
Republic of the MarshallIslands.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Well, let me ask you this, Shem Do you think people
in the Marshallese Islands havehope that climate change is
going to be addressed in anymeaningful way.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I mean, we're definitely not going to give up
our islands.
We are trying our best to keepour islands as is.
But if relocation becomesinevitable, it must be done on
(25:42):
our terms, with dignity, justiceand full recognition of our
sovereignty.
There's nothing more.
But we do not want to be justmigrants.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Thank you, shem Levi, for joining us on Breaking
Green.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
You have been listening to Breaking Green a
Global Justice Ecology Projectpodcast, thank you.
Please help us lift up thevoices of those working to
protect forests, defend humanrights and expose false
solutions.
Simply text GIVE to 17162574187.
(26:41):
That's 17162574187.
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