Episode Transcript
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intro music (00:00):
Hey,
Allison (00:10):
everybody.
Welcome back to the podcast.
I am so excited to have Soniawith me.
Sonia has been working in theyouth correction services for
well over a decade, she's alicensed professional counselor
with a history of working withindividuals have committed
sexual offenses in addition topsychological intake and
assessment, working with LGBTQplus youth and adults, as well
(00:35):
as people with developmental andintellectual nuance needs.
Sonya is a full operatingprovider with the OMB or the Sex
Offender Management Board, anappointed member of the OMB Best
Practices Committee and a memberof the dv.
So training committee.
Sonya earned her BA inpsychology with a minor in
Africana studies from theUniversity of Cincinnati, and
(00:57):
received her MA in forensicpsychology at the University of
Denver Professional School ofPsychology.
In other words.
Sonia is a badass has been doinga lot of things to help this
world a better place for a longtime.
I'm, very glad that you're here.
So welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yes Yes time to be hereAbsolutely.
(01:17):
It's really great.
I'm excited for thisconversation to sort of You're
now more focused on the juvenileside of things and less in the
adult space, right?
We met 10 years ago ish when youwere working in the adult space
at a treatment Provider there indenver.
So it's been a while Us knowingeach other and i'm just really
(01:40):
glad the worlds collided wherewe saw each other at a
conference last year Now we getto do this and have a nice
little chat.
So, yes, no,
sonya (01:50):
I, yes, it's good to
catch up.
It's really good to reconnect.
Allison (01:54):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Will you just tell the listenersa little bit about what your
work entails and sort of thepurpose behind being a treatment
provider for those that are inthe correctional system?
sonya (02:07):
Yes, absolutely.
So I, you know, work In afacility for youth who have
committed varying offenses fromsexual offenses to violent acts
such as like aggravated robberyor aggravated assault, attempted
murder, murder, trying to thinkthings related to substance use.
So anything that would lead to ayouth being placed into the
(02:31):
criminal justice system in thestate of Colorado.
And so we provide services.
which can include individualtreatment sessions, group
therapy sessions, as well asfamily engagement.
Because we, you know, we'reworking with juveniles, it's
very much, it takes a villageconcept.
Um, so we try to incorporatefamily, guardian, guardian,
(02:52):
legal professionals, people thatcan wrap around the youth and
try to provide an opportunityfor them to have a second chance
at life.
And so a lot of our work isproviding rehabilitation as well
as potentially healing, right?
So it depends on, you know, howdeep they want to get into the
(03:13):
services we offer, because a lotof times people aren't really
ready for that deep dive.
They're comfortable beingsurface level, which is okay,
you know, and then when they'reready to below the surface and,
you know, we are ready to helpthem through that process.
Allison (03:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, what is the goal?
I think there's words get thrownaround like justice and
correctional and healing orreconciliation.
There's so many things that getkind of talked about in this
space.
At the end of the day, what'skind of your, your goal with the
youth that you're working with?
sonya (03:49):
So I think the biggest
goal, so as a, like a systemic
piece.
So there's been a change fromreferring to it as corrections
and to youth services.
So a lot of it is looking at toproviding treatment and offering
treatment.
And so with that, our goal is tohelp the youth identify one, how
(04:09):
did they create harm, right?
How did they cause harm?
And what level of accountabilityand responsibility are they
taking?
In, in the harm that theycreated from there.
But then we look at, okay, whatwas the root, right?
What are the root causes for,for that, for that behavior?
And then how can we take thesteps through various treatment
modalities?
(04:30):
Most of the time, it's usuallybased in behavioral therapies,
whether it's cognitivebehavioral therapy, dialectical
or,.
Rational emotive behavioraltherapy.
And so part of those things helplead to what we call RCJ or
restorative community justice,right?
Because the idea is tounderstand the harm that has
been caused and also to repairthe harm, whether that's doing,
(04:53):
RCJ projects.
So as youth kind of earn goalsor complete tasks throughout
their time in our facilities,they can earn different levels
or different phases.
And one of the things to tie itback into the treatment aspect
is to do a restorative communityjustice project where they
either talk to families who havehad youth in the system or they
(05:14):
do a fundraiser to donate moneyto shelters for survivors of
interpersonal violence ordomestic violence, shelters in
general, because part of likereasons why a lot of our youth
commit their crimes may bebecause their parents or their
guardian, you know, struggledwith stable housing.
So they felt like they had to,you know, engage in aggravated
(05:36):
robbery or stealing cars orstealing things out of cars or
robbing houses to be able tosupport and provide for their
family because They noticed ormade, made the observation that
their parent or the person thatwas supposed to be their
caregiver could not take care ofthem.
And so a lot of them, you know,have crimes of necessity in
their history or have just a lotof instability.
(05:56):
And so they took matters intotheir own hands to make it
stable and, you know, ended upcosting them their ability to be
free.
Um, and ended up in our systems.
Allison (06:07):
Yeah.
And then that's such ainteresting point, the
reactionary side of the kids.
I think a lot of times also whenwe put, I know it's not called
corrections anymore, but justfor the sake of people kind of
what I'm saying is like, yes,that when a kid goes into the
correctional space, it's becausethey make this choice, like
(06:31):
almost an adult level ofunderstanding, like they, they
committed a crime and now theyhave to face punishment.
And I think we forget thatthey're kids.
And sometimes when it's a kid,want to do the thing that they
feel like is going to be helpfuland don't go through the
(06:51):
cognitive process of necessarilypunishment associated with that
crime?
Does that feel like something,you know, you see a lot of as
kids coming in and notnecessarily knowing or
associating it as bad orstruggling with that element a
little bit?
So I see it in a
sonya (07:08):
lot of different ways.
So like, So the term we use alot is adultification, right?
And so that definitely happens alot.
And also what I've been seeing,interestingly enough, not just
in the state of Colorado, but ina few other states as well,
where there have been adults whonot necessarily groom, but they
like youth who are involved inlike street life or gang life in
(07:30):
that culture.
Adults are using, minors areusing juveniles to commit crimes
because they understand, okay,if you get caught, you're doing
less time.
So we've been actually seeing anincrease in that.
And so it's that piece of themjustifying or saying the hate,
like normalizing that behavioror making it okay for them to
engage in that behavior, youknow, and so they're not finding
(07:53):
out until they're in ourtreatment facilities or until,
you know, they're in a court.
Getting ready to get sentenced,you know, that, Oh, I shouldn't
have gone this route, or maybe Ishouldn't have gotten to this
car, you know, so that they'rehaving those thoughts of regret
or processing that while they'resitting in detained in a
(08:14):
detained room or in a spacebecause they're, you know,
getting ready to spend the restof their teenage years in a
facility, you know, so Idefinitely see a lot of that.
I do see some youth who in themoment.
know that they were looking outfor self and there was, there
was no empathy in the moment.
There was no considering othersin that moment.
(08:37):
It was either I'm gonna get you,are you going to get me, you
know, so to speak, or, you know,either.
My family eats or they starve,you know, and so those decisions
or those crossroads were moreimportant in that moment than,
oh, how is this going to affectsomebody else?
Or what, me making this decisionor me making this move, what
(08:58):
kind of harm is that going tocreate for the community?
Like in that moment, that is notsomething that's on their radar.
gap (09:04):
Right.
sonya (09:04):
And definitely not at the
front of their brain.
So yeah.
Allison (09:07):
Yeah.
Do you try to help them connectthose two worlds?
The world of you wanted tofulfill this need, which in some
ways feels very rational.
You know, I think if I wasexperiencing a, a moment where I
wanted to help or do somethingand that's my mindset, that
(09:28):
makes sense.
And then connecting to harm ofthat action.
What does that process looklike?
Like for, for youth and, and foryou also in the work of being a
provider.
sonya (09:39):
It's very challenging.
Um, especially when, because Ithink what also is happening for
the youth when they make thoserealizations, it's like, well, I
can't go back, right?
I can't, I can't take, turnaround the hands of time.
There's no time machine for meto go back and make a different
decision.
So not only are they processing,okay, what I did was wrong.
(10:00):
And now I'm at a place where Ihave to figure out how to repair
harm.
But then it's like, well, thenhow do I go forward from here?
Right.
There's just a lot of our youth,you know, that, as I was saying
earlier about like their adultpeers, right.
May not say the family members,but the adults that they've been
around or older teenagers thatthey're around that are
influencing them to commitcrimes.
(10:22):
Right.
It's like, well, I, you know,the other thing that pushed me
over the edge to go along withthis was because, you know, I
found out my girl was pregnantor Becoming a parent for the
first time, or my mom wasgetting evicted on my, my
parents were getting kicked outor, you know, we had to find
somewhere to go.
And so there's this resentmenttoo, of why am I putting this
(10:45):
position to take care ofsomeone?
Right.
Because I didn't have theeducation.
I didn't have that know how of,you know, whether it's the talk
about.
healthy relationships or healthysexuality or about, you know,
when, when you see your parentsstruggling, right.
Or, um, having to stay at yourgrandma's house or your auntie
uncle house because your parentsis working 20 hours out of the
(11:07):
day.
So they needed somebody to comewatch you.
And so not really understandingthat.
And understanding their role isthat with all of that, we still
wanted you to be a child, butthat's where the adultification
comes in.
And a lot of them too are like,well, I need to step up and do
something.
I mean, and on the flip side,like not to, you know, be
misconstrued, but there are someyouth in our systems that have a
(11:30):
stable housing, have stablefamilies, have two parent
households.
And one, one parent is, Uh,lawyer, one parent is a medical
professional or something ofthat sort, and they just wanted
to pursue a lifestyle that wastotally different than what they
were used to or accustomed to.
You know, so like, let's like,to be fair, like it's not the
one type of demographic that weserve.
(11:52):
So it's very interesting, likeas a treatment provider, knowing
how to have conversations withthe youth that's been on one
side of the tracks and one youthon the other side of the tracks.
And so.
Just finding that balance andunderstanding that we can't use
a cookie cutter approach whenproviding those treatment
services because they havedifferent needs, right?
How they identify trauma variesfrom youth to youth.
(12:14):
You know, one of my kids, hegrew up in a very affluent
family.
So for him, his trauma was notnecessarily receiving the level
of love from his father that hisother siblings got.
Right.
Where I have another kid whohe's locked up and doesn't even
know where his mom is at.
Only for her, you know, to befound dead in like this desolate
(12:39):
area.
So it's like, those are twovarying types of trauma that I'm
working with as their BHS.
And how do I support them?
Right.
How do I, Make sure that theirbasic needs are being met.
How do I make sure that I mayeven able to get to the point of
talking about the harm that theycaused in their offense when we
got other things to still dealwith,
gap (13:00):
you know, with so
sonya (13:00):
many layering factors and
so many things to take into
account when working withjuveniles, right?
Because on top of that, youknow, Well, we also talked about
family engagement, so of course,parents and the guardians
involved have their things thatthey want the child to address,
but it's like, okay, we can getthere, but there's also things
we have to address with you,
gap (13:19):
you
sonya (13:20):
know, and so a lot of
times we get that pushback as
well of, well, I'm not the onein jail.
My child is great.
However, we're not sending yourchild to this is not the witness
protection agency either.
When they get released forparole or get discharged and
have their mandatory releasedate, they're going back into
the community.
They were in when they committeda crime and got sent to us.
(13:42):
Right?
So it's like we're preparingthem, but we're not preparing
their environment.
We're not able to prepare theirfamilies or their support as
much as we would like to.
When they're going back intothat community, you know, and so
I think that's one of the manybarriers that I see as a
treatment provider, and we even,I mean, we have that realistic
conversation with our youth,especially our ones who are gang
(14:04):
affiliated, we say, Hey, like,you know, we may have like the
parole board or differentboards.
They want them to abstain fromit 100%.
But as a treatment provider, Iknow that's not a reality.
Unless you're sending that childto another state or to another
place, you know, in Colorado,that child is going to be right
back into, in the mix, you know?
(14:25):
So we, we have a differentapproach where we're having
conversations like, okay, so doyou really have to be In the
front row when all the stuff isgoing down or can you play play
a more low key approach, right?
Um, you've done the time you'veput in the work, right?
That's the reason why you're inhere doing this time is you put
it on this effort, right?
So what does that position looklike for you when you leave, you
(14:48):
know, they'll say oh, I don'twant to deal with nobody I get
it but then the first time yougo to king super Or go to the
grocery store or doing somethingwith your family and you see
somebody from that You From thatgroup, right, from that circle,
how are you going to approachthat?
You know, those are thedifferent conversations we have.
So I'm like, let's be realistic.
Like as much as I want you tonot be a part of a negative
(15:10):
lifestyle, you know, thatdoesn't have longevity.
I also understand that you can'tescape it a hundred percent,
unless your family is like, assoon as they come out, you know,
we want to do an interstatecompact and move to Illinois or
move to.
Des Moines, Iowa, you know, likewhatever the case may be, right?
Yeah, not every family has thatopportunity, you know, because
(15:30):
they can barely afford the placethat they have here.
So for them to up and relocateto another state is not
realistic.
So we have to be mindful, youknow, what we are talking to our
youth about.
And being realistic and meetingthem where they're at.
Yeah.
So that's one of the biggestthings we take away, you know,
in treatment is like thatreality piece of, well, we know
the route you were going eithergot you here and the next stop
(15:54):
is death.
Right, right.
If it's not the federal peary,if it's not DOC, it's death.
Mm-Hmm.
Is that the path you wannacontinue to take?
No.
Okay.
So then what are you willing todo?
What are you ready to do?
And what are you able to do tomake those changes?
And so it's like, yeah.
So, you know, and that's one ofthe things I learned in grad
school is like, is a personready, willing and able.
(16:15):
And if they say yes to all threeof those, then there are certain
approaches you can take ifthey're only saying yes to one.
Okay.
Here's a, You have specificapproaches to how you do that,
because the person may be readyto do it, but they're not able
to for whatever reason, orthey're not willing, right?
There's that barrier.
So it's just, it's a lot.
Allison (16:32):
Yeah.
I mean, I like when I'm thinkingabout someone listening and
they're like, wow, it's a lot offactors, you know, like, and
it's you're a lot of times wefeel with problems at this
magnitude.
It's like, well, there's what Ican't change.
Right.
All this, right?
And I think it's alwaysimportant to remember that you
don't have to change all ofthat.
You just have to, if you can,look at what's happening in your
(16:55):
space and maybe just askingyourself, I love the question of
like, do you have to be in thefront row of this?
I think anyone, everyone shouldask them that question.
Like there's, there's, I mean,the way I interpret that is
there's a time and a place toengage, and there's a time and a
place to walk away.
Um, whatever extent that meansfor you, but what a helpful
(17:19):
check in, I guess, withourselves.
sonya (17:22):
Yeah, I'll do an example.
So I like Snoop Dogg.
Very well known that he's gangaffiliated.
I say, you think he's out heredoing drive bys and pulling up
on people, asking them what setthey from?
I No, right.
He may drop a lyric in a song ortwo or you'll see him rocking
his color, but that's it Youthat can be you like if you are
(17:43):
If you are content andunderstand that you're not
leaving the lifestyle 100There's levels to this.
And so he's always a person thatI pick, like, I pull out, like,
Hey, Nipsey Hussle, like, youknow, RIP.
But I'm like, he's another one,right?
He was buying property, right?
So it's like, how can you takethat and flip it and make it a
more beneficial to you and yourcommunity?
(18:05):
And so like, I'd have thoseconversations and then I've been
talking about the history of it.
I said, because gangs, likedidn't start out as just killing
each other, selling drugs andengaging in all this things The,
all the, of these things thatare harmful to the community,
they actually were theprotection to the community when
law enforcement weren't able orwas choosing not to support
them, you know, and so that'sthe other thing is I always try
(18:27):
to connect their lifestyle andconnect identity because I
noticed some of the youngergeneration, they don't really,
like, I, They're not really fansof tradition, but they also
don't really look at history,
gap (18:41):
sorry,
sonya (18:41):
look at history and how
things repeat, because I'm like,
you're reinventing the wheelwhen all you need to do is just
modify it or upgrade it.
And so I try to connect thatinto treatment of, again, like
using the Snoop Dogg reference,like, yeah, I'm pretty sure when
he was young and first got intoit, he was doing all the things
that y'all were doing.
Do you think he's doing that nowin his age?
(19:02):
Probably not.
Yeah.
He's doing sport casting withKevin Hart, you know, that can
be you, like you can be doingother things and still have that
association and still have thataffiliation.
You just have to figure out thatbalance and what that looks like
for you, you know?
Allison (19:18):
Well, I love, I mean,
it's sort of the approach of, I
think a lot of times we get veryrigid with rules.
There's good.
There's bad.
Instead of there's.
Human, right?
Like you have to work with whatyou have and I'm not saying
every rule works for you.
(19:39):
Every rule doesn't work forevery kid or every situation..
And it feels like that kind ofthe balance in this is like.
I don't want you to commit harm.
I don't want you to harmyourself.
I don't want you to harm others.
And I don't want to strip youaway from your support system.
And I want you to know in whatyou have, what serves you, what
(20:02):
doesn't serve you.
And that conversation is notblack and white in any space, I
would imagine.
And yes, holding it.
sonya (20:13):
Yes.
How do you hold it?
I guess, especially withjuveniles, you know what I'm
saying?
So it's like, yeah, you know,that's the thing I think
ultimately what helps in thatreminder.
But yeah, so with, Juveniles,right?
Like their development isdifferent.
Things that we should expectfrom a 15 year old is not the
same things we should expect fora 25 year old or a 30 or 80 year
(20:35):
old, right?
So it's that developmentalpiece, because I think the
biggest thing that I've had toshare, not only with the youth,
but their family is like Egoplays a big part, right?
For in their stage ofdevelopment as a teenager,
they're about how peopleperceive them, how they want
others to perceive them.
And, you know, how, how am I,like, where's my place in the
(20:59):
world?
They're trying to identifytheir, their autonomy.
And so there's going to bepushback.
They're going to challengethat's, that's part of the
development.
So I use that to be like, okay,so you want to be like all these
other people, but who are you?
How do you make that a thing?
And so that was one of thethings I had to tell a parent
one time because they were like,well, didn't you do this?
(21:22):
I said, exactly.
I said, but the advice that Ihave for this youth is coming
from somebody in their thirties.
I have to take myself back towhen I was their age, 15, 16, 17
years old, because I wouldprobably have the same approach.
So I empathize and I understandthat piece of it, but also
understand that that is for thattime.
(21:42):
As you get older.
you're not going to be 50 yearsold on a date saying, hold on,
you know, for your anniversaryand say, hold on, babe, let me
go fight or cuss out this personbecause they said something
about my shoes.
Right.
You're like, you're not doingthat as an adult.
And as you get older and it'slike, for them, they don't see
that because it's not right infront of them.
So you have to constantlyexplain that.
(22:04):
It's like, I get in this moment,that's how you feel.
But the reality is.
that will go away.
That will not be the end all beall for how you navigate life.
Yeah.
And so like, it's just, you haveto remind, and that's why I
always suggest to especially newtherapists and therapists in
this field, you cannot be rigid.
Like yes, Right.
(22:24):
And how you do things and whereyou set certain standards.
But when you're talking abouttreatment services, you have to
meet the youth where they're at.
Allison (22:31):
You have to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, when you think aboutalso parents or community
approach, do you feel like thatrule applies there too?
That, you know, we can't berigid with these kids.
I mean, you could read.
A million books, I'm sure, andthe advice will be different in
every single one of them.
Um, but, you know, you, you workwith enough kids in, in probably
(22:56):
the hardest moment of theirlife.
You know, at the end of the day,whether they're vocalizing it as
that or not, this is nothingthat they're going through as a
fun experience.
They're being taken away fromtheir friends, from their
family, from, you Community fromfreedom, right?
There's no, there's nothinglight about that experience for
(23:19):
anybody, but especially for akid.
So, you know, as we, we thinkabout protecting our kids, I
also think part of thatprotection isn't that they never
do anything wrong.
It's how do we help them limitthe extent of that hurt in
making mistakes and growing upand listening to the ego part of
(23:40):
it, which is not rigid and everykid's ego is very different,
too.
I mean, there are just some kidsthat naturally do sit back and
some kids that come forward, youknow, there's just that's
personality and of itself.
So how do you.
I mean, I'm sure you do workwith kids that are more mellow,
that are more aggressive, thatare more everything.
(24:02):
Do you approach those kidsdifferently as far as, you know,
the more shy kid versus the moreoutgoing kid?
Do you feel like it's kind ofthe same no matter what as far
as like how to keep them in thathealing space or is it a little
bit different?
sonya (24:16):
I definitely look at
different approaches for each of
my youth.
And also, yeah, each of my youthand the different youth that I
interact with, like, outside ofmy caseload.
Because I know, like, there'scertain youth where, not
necessarily a tough loveapproach, but like, if, like, I
know if they approach me acertain way that's a little
(24:38):
aggressive and I can match that,they can handle that.
Where I know if I use that sameapproach on a youth, That isn't
used to that they will cower orthere will be a like a outburst
anger outburst because that'ssomething they're not used or
accustomed to.
So I have to be very mindful ofhow I approach every youth that
I work with.
And then I also look atidentifying strengths in areas
(25:00):
of improvement.
Right?
So like a youth who isn't atalker, right?
In like group settings, if Ineeded to give feedback to them,
then we would meet individually,and then we'll talk about it.
Because some youth, there's alot of youth that don't have a
lot of ego strength, whichbasically means when someone is
in like a public speaking or agroup setting, right?
(25:22):
And they're being, um, critiquedor given feedback, right?
That's not really an appropriateplace for them because now
they're having these thoughtsof, oh, now they see me as
somebody who's inadequate orsomebody who's this or that.
And so all these negativethoughts, you know, so the
approach for them would be tohave that conversation.
(25:43):
separately or individually,right?
Whereas you have a youth whocould be in a group setting, you
give that feedback and they willbe receptive of it, will ask
questions, and then you havesome youth who are the ones
giving the feedback, you know,it can have those conversations
and can take a leadership role.
So it's just how you see themand how they navigate in that
(26:04):
environment, which helps in howyou support them.
And how you are receptive or howyou offer feedback to them,
whether that's in part likeindividually or in a group or
public setting.
So yeah, it's just, it justdepends on the youth and how
they are receptive to thingslike some youth that just when
you explain stuff like you gotto give them one task at a time.
(26:27):
Where some youth, you can givethem three and they'll remember
all three of them.
You know, whereas if you giveone kid three, then they'll put
them in different orders so youhave to be mindful and have to
remind yourself, like not everyyouth takes instruction the
same.
You know, it's almost likecoaching.
Um, one of my friends, they usethat example.
It's like, if you ever coached,like you can be talking about
the same drill, but you have toexplain it 50 different ways for
(26:49):
each youth, because they'regoing to understand it
differently than the next.
And it's the same way withtherapy.
Allison (26:55):
Yeah, when you were
talking, I was like, it is so
much like coaching.
It's finding the strength.
And not getting stuck on theweakness, but getting focused on
the strength.
Like, what do you bring to thetable?
What is your strength in that?
And really molding it into thepositive side for, you know, the
coach's opinion on the field,but for you in life, how do you
(27:19):
move forward with your, with whoyou are fully intact, but know
that.
You know, you can't go full onsprinting because you'll only
last three minutes in the game,right?
You've got to exactly.
You got to you might getspeedster, but I need you to
slow down sometimes.
Right.
Like, it's OK.
(27:39):
I want you to run in thesemoments.
Know those moments.
I want you to be calm in these.
And that, you know, just feelslike you really see your kids.
I feel like there's so much inprevention work of just.
Seeing people not trying toforce people into what we think
(28:02):
or what we read, but it has tofeel so hard because you are a
clinical therapist, right?
Like, and when we think aboutthat, we think about the book
and the literal book of theclinical way that we solve the
world's problems.
Um, you know, what, Thatbalance, you just have a really
beautiful balance of that.
(28:23):
How, how did you kind of, I'msure it's experience and all
those things, but what kind ofmotivates you to stay in that
place of, of seeing each kid?
sonya (28:32):
So I, I think one of the
like, modalities or schools of
thoughts that I gravitated towas existentialism and identity.
And I think being, you know, um,there's a running joke with a
colleague of mine, because we'reboth Black therapists, how we're
unicorns, right?
(28:53):
And so not only being a Blackfemale therapist, but also
working in a setting wheremajority of the youth look like
me, you know, they could haveeasily been my son, my nephew,
my cousin.
So, in, in that position as aclinical, as a mental health
professional, understanding thatsome of them have lived similar
lifestyles of family members,right?
(29:14):
I, I'm using that as a way tosee them as human.
Because I understand thatthey're in a world where they're
not seen as that, you hadmentioned earlier where a lot of
times we see our juveniles asjust criminals and nothing more,
nothing less.
And so I always go inunderstanding that, yes, they
did commit a crime.
Yes, they have a lot ofmaladaptive coping skills,
(29:37):
right?
But my role is if I can changeone of those things.
I've done my job.
And as a therapist, I thinkuniversally, we always go in
bright eyed, bushy tail, wantingto change the world and
understanding that we're not anAvenger, nor are we on the
Justice League.
So, you know, we got to plantone seed at a time and show them
(29:57):
how to nurture it, how to bringwater to it, how to feed it, how
to make sure it gets enoughsunlight.
That's our role.
And so if one person could get asprout, hey, I'm accomplished.
I've, I've done my job.
So that's that piece.
I also try to bring humor intotherapy.
So like one of the things that Ido and it's like finding that
balance, right.
And also remembering the youththat you deal with.
(30:19):
So one of my kids, he is like a,you know, petite youth, but
every time like a youth wouldattempt to fight him, he stood
his ground.
Like he has heart.
gap (30:31):
And
sonya (30:31):
so one day he just
casually got into a fight with
somebody I'm having a staffingin one room and right outside
him and another you get into afight.
So then later, after they getphysically managed and they get,
you know, consequence for thefight or whatever.
I was like, look here, RobertoDuran.
And he was like, who's thatmiss?
And I was like, he's a Hispanicboxer and you know, he laughed.
(30:53):
And he was like, really, youknow, or I had another client
who, when he would get upset andjust take off running, like when
he's outside, he'll just go runit.
And he's not like trying toescape, but he just runs.
And, you know, and so I waslike, all right, what's up,
Usain?
And it's not a way to demean theyouth, but it's like, what are
we doing?
what's happening?
(31:13):
Right.
What's going on.
And so for them, it's like, Itmakes it digestible, If I'm
constantly throwing therapeuticjargon at them and
colloquialisms that onlysomebody with my degree would
understand, they're not going toget treatment.
gap (31:27):
Right.
sonya (31:27):
So it's like they're
having that ability and that
capability to make somethingcomplicated, simple and
something simple, complicated,So I may simplify things so that
they can understand it anddigest it, but then I flip it
right and speak it into alanguage that their client
manager can understand theirlegal professional their parent,
so that they know that, okay, sothis is what y'all are talking
about in treatment.
(31:48):
This is what we're doing, andit's about.
honest conversation, right?
It's being real.
And so that for me is what hashelped me in my longevity in the
field.
Because yes, it is very trying.
It is very challenging, becauseyou know, you can't save them,
and so I remember having aconversation, we were running a
group one day, And the kid waslike, how many of y'all grew up
(32:12):
in the hood here and accountedfor?
I did.
And so it was kind of becausethey're so used to saying that
around people who haven't hadthat experience.
I said, but I have.
And they were like, yeah, butyou had a different, I said, I
know I did.
But that's also to show you thatjust because you were there
doesn't mean you have to staythere physically and mentally.
gap (32:29):
You
sonya (32:29):
have an opportunity.
Right.
And you know, one of the kidssaid, well, you had the support
and I didn't.
And I was like, touche.
I said, but you have it now.
And how can we fix that, how canwe change that for you?
So when you leave us, youcontinue to have the support
that you didn't have before youcame here, and even with that,
you can still do great things,right?
You just have to identify thatsupport in another way.
(32:52):
And so that's what leads tothose other conversations, you
know, and bringing that becausethen I'm like, okay, because not
only am I seeing them, They havean opportunity to see me as a
human because a lot of times,right, they just see me as staff
or oh, you're just my therapist,And there's nothing more to us.
They think we live there or theydon't think we experience things
like I think one of the biggestthings when COVID happened.
(33:14):
The kids would like, they werelike, wait, so y'all telling me
people are fighting each otherin the aisles over toilet paper
and disinfectant wipes, youknow, like they, but it's, it's
like, once they get out thereand like solve some of the
things, it was like, okay,they're speaking facts or
they're saying these things andit's making sense, you know?
And so that's the thing thatkind of helps me with that is
(33:34):
just balancing the reality andspeaking in terms that they
understand.
And still making thatenvironment therapeutic.
And I think, you know,especially for our youth that,
inner city and they look like meand, and so for them, when they
get that opportunity and see,Oh, she went a different route
or there's other options outthere.
(33:55):
Like, I don't have to just fallinto these different categories.
And so that also helps, youknow, and so I try to encourage
them to explore certain things.
And if that's the thing thatsparks.
and helps change theirtrajectory, then I've done my
job.
Allison (34:09):
Yeah.
sonya (34:09):
You know?
Allison (34:10):
Yeah.
And you feel like, I mean, theway you taught, it's like
building a new.
A new, right?
Like a new world, newperspective, a new, because if,
if all we did in therapy or inthe juvenile side of things was
be punitive, punish, right?
Say you messed up, you made amistake, you've messed up, own
(34:32):
it.
Right.
If we just kept going back tothat, they would have no hope.
They would have no joy and theywould leave more likely to just
fall on their Right back in withall of those things because it
gets to this point probably oflike, well, what is the point if
I can't, if I can't see itdifferently, if I can't see my
(34:54):
actions mattering in any waythat I'm just gonna be back
here, regardless.
There's no hope.
There's no a new at all.
I'm guessing change.
Is impossible for them andbuilding that is so beautiful
and I think it's something thatwe all can do.
We all can build worlds thatshow us there's an option for
(35:16):
something new.
There's an option for change.
There's an option for betterthan what we are looking at
right now.
It, whatever that means for you,whatever the context of that is,
um, with hope and enjoy, youknow, I'm, I'm guessing the
facilities are not the mosthilarious of places and probably
are not, uh, very bright and,uh, vibrant.
(35:40):
I mean, I guess, I don't know.
So I think, you know, when youbring in joy and humor, does it
sometimes take the kids offguard?
Like, cause I'm guessing theirlife is pretty.
serious in the facilities?
Like, so does it kind of like,Oh, wow, that's funny.
sonya (35:58):
Yes.
It's very like, I think itcatches them off guard because
my responses are never quoteunquote normal in a sense of
what they're expecting to hearfrom a clinician.
And so, and I think, causeagain, if we're talking about
developmental, right, risktaking behavior, so, and also
boundary pushing.
So they may say things to see,Oh, Am I going to shock her or
(36:21):
cause her to blush or saysomething inappropriate that'll
throw her off?
And what they fail to realize isthat I'm very quick with it,
gap (36:29):
and
sonya (36:29):
so I match it.
And so like, now, now both ears,you know, looking, looking
confused, like what justhappened?
Even though I knew ahead oftime.
What the game plan was.
And so, um, I think it's justvery different for them in other
ways.
Like I've had youth be sexuallyinappropriate, like say things
that were inappropriate.
(36:50):
And then I'm like, so yeah, no,not, I don't, not sure why you
thought that was going to fly,but it's not.
And so one youth was like, well,I've never had somebody say no
to me.
I said, well, you're handlingrejection very well.
Right.
So I flipped it and turned itinto a uh, teaching moment.
Like, hey, just so you know,rejection is a part of life, and
(37:12):
so it's how you bounce back fromthat and how you handle that is
what determines how you're goingto navigate when dealing with
rejection, right?
And so, and then reinforcingthose boundaries, like, you
know, what was cool about thatsituation was that the youth
later, like other kids, pulledhim to the side and said, yeah,
we don't do that with Ms.
Sonya.
We don't play them kind ofgames, right?
So it's like because of mereinforcing the boundaries and
(37:35):
really understanding the kind ofspace that I create when I'm
facilitating groups or when I'mrunning a session, or even if
I'm just on the pod, hanging outwith the youth, you know, in
between sessions.
Right.
You know, and just seeing howthey're doing what they got
going on, and it's like they,they build that camaraderie,
they build that connection.
And so it does throw them off.
So then when things come up andthey have questions, and I'm
(37:57):
very transparent, as transparentas I can be about what's going
on, what's not going on, andthen how I can support them.
so I think for them, it's like,okay, because I know there's a
lot of transference, like, witha youth, I've been told multiple
times, like, man, you remind meof my aunt, or you remind me of
my mom, and so.
With that, it's like, okay,well, then how did you treat
(38:17):
them?
Because not only am I, I alsohave to confront, you know, if
they don't have the bestrelationship with any of their
female family members, I'mmodeling for them, how to
incorporate a healthyrelationship, right.
With a family member, how tohave better communication with
their mothers, with their aunts,with their grandmothers, how to
have better relationships, Howto talk to women.
Yeah, you know, and then one ofthe things I tell the staff as
(38:40):
well is that we are theirexample of what healthy adulting
looks like.
I know we have our own journeys,We have our things that we're
working on myself included.
But when we are in front ofthese youth, when we are around
these youth, we need to bemaking healthy decisions.
We need to be doing things thatare appropriate, especially in
how we interact with them,because they're going to take
that and And use it in thecommunity,
Allison (39:00):
you know, I mean,
that's universal, right?
Whether we're in a correctionfacility or not, kids look at us
and, and they watch us.
They observe us.
Yes.
Absolutely.
They test us too.
Right.
I mean, they might just likeliterally test you, but
literally, yes, they also watchand see and are like, well, how
(39:21):
do these adults?
Treat each other.
Are they respectful?
Do they argue?
Do they cross boundaries?
Do they say inappropriatethings?
And it all builds us in a wayand makes us do things because
if we learn by observation thatthat is okay, but then we're
told it's not, my guess is we'regoing to do the thing that we
(39:43):
saw versus the thing we're beingtold and that is not okay.
True representation, but alsothe messiness, you said, you're
a full person that goes throughfull experiences and you bring
that to the table.
I don't feel like you try tohide or pretend you are you,
your boundary.
That's but that is part of you,but you, you're, you're.
(40:07):
But you come as a person and doyou feel like that's a key
element in really being able toconnect with the kids as being a
full person that's got emotionsand feels things and goes
through things?
sonya (40:20):
I think the root of that
of, so one of the mantras that I
follow is know thyself.
And so because I am aware ofsituations I can and can't
handle, I'm able to bring myselfinto situations that I know that
I can manage without itjeopardizing my livelihood and
my ability to do my job.
(40:41):
And so I think that helps me beable to be the person that I am
when I'm in that space.
And so a lot of people attemptto do that without doing the.
Their introspection and theirinner work to know what they
bring, like whether that's theenergy or like how they address
things, right?
Like, for example, if you arenot a confrontational person.
(41:04):
Do not present yourself as suchwhen you are dealing with a
youth or with other staff,because what's going to happen
is the truth will slip out, andthen they're not going to trust
you because you are not up frontwith them.
Right?
You are not.
And so that's the thing.
especially when you're workingin a facility, whether adults or
juveniles, they will sniff thatout.
(41:24):
How real is this person Howconsistent is this person?
And so when they know that theyhave the ability of the
possibility of scaring you aremaking you feel uncomfortable,
they will take it and run.
And so I think, you know, andso, and I'm not saying I came
out, you know, grad school likethis.
It took time.
Allison (41:44):
Yeah,
sonya (41:44):
right.
But I also eased into it.
I wasn't just, Oh, I'm going tobe this from day one.
And that's it.
No, it's like, I was like, okay,let me do a little this.
All right, that didn't work.
So let's go back to the drawingboard.
So it was a lot of, okay, whatworks for me and what doesn't
and understanding that.
There's only one Sonya, right?
I'm not going to be Freud.
(42:06):
I'm not going to be young.
I'm not going to be Gestalt.
Like I'm not, I'm my own person,I learn from the people before
me and a certain things andcertain concepts that apply to
the work that I do.
And then at the end of the day,I add my, my, my flair to it,
right?
I add my razzle dazzle.
And so I think that's what hashelped me get into that place
(42:26):
where I can bring myself becauseI know.
my abilities.
I understand areas that I stillneed to grow in and I understand
my strengths.
And so I mean, and that's theother pieces that I don't, I
never stopped learning.
Yes.
I've been doing this work forover 10 years and yet I'm still
learning.
I still go to trainings.
I still consult with newer Newertherapists, you know, okay.
(42:51):
What are y'all learning in gradschool now?
Because what they're teaching meis totally different than what
they're teaching you now, and wecould have gone to the same
program Yeah, you know and solike always like always learning
always Knowing that I can stillimprove right one of my favorite
sayings is along with knowthyself is you can be a work of
art You could be a masterpieceand a work in progress at the
(43:12):
same time.
gap (43:14):
You know,
sonya (43:15):
and so under, again, so
understanding that piece, right,
of my identity, I see that and Ioften find that in the youth
that I work with.
And even the clients when Iworked with adults, it's the
same thing.
It's like, is this going to beyou forever?
Is this the chapter of the bookthat you're going to stay in for
the rest of your life, If not,then what can we do to start a
new chapter?
Yeah.
Right?
Or at least end this book andstart the new book.
(43:37):
Yeah.
And so because of how the workthat I put in with me, I'm not
the same person I was 10, 15, 5years ago, you know?
So.
We are, you know, my dad hadthis saying that when he would
see people and say, Hey man, howyou doing?
He was like, I'm just surviving.
His response was alwayscockroaches survive.
We grow and develop.
(43:58):
Right.
And so as humans, that's, that'swhat we do.
Our, our thing is to grow anddevelop.
And so if I can do that for me,then I'm going to create a space
to make sure that you learn howto do those things.
So when you create that spacefor yourself, you know, for my
clients that they can grow anddevelop and be better versions
of themselves.
Allison (44:17):
Yeah, I feel like
we've, like, gotten a little bit
of your philosophy in this,like, just the combo of you and
what you bring to the table andthe way that you see psychology
and support and healing.
It's just really wonderful, andI love that it's yours and you
and I think we all have thecapacity to find our theory, you
(44:41):
know, our, our moment, our thingthat fits us, that also
resonates.
You know, I say all the timethat every self help book has
already been written, but wekeep writing them because I see
the world differently than youdo.
And my feelings are differentthan yours and, and the things
that resonate are different.
And so that's why there's somany, or there's so many of
(45:03):
everything.
Movies keep getting made.
We've told love stories.
How many different ways, but westill want to see it and I think
it's important to know andremember that whatever you have,
whatever your theory is, yourlove, your story, it's it
matters.
It's powerful.
And that, you know, you'vereally leaned into.
yours and you practice it.
(45:23):
I think that's the thing is itfeels like every day you
practice these philosophies thatyou've created for yourself and
it's just really amazing.
Thank you.
Yeah, I love it.
All right, before we get out ofhere, I guess I'll just ask you,
I mean, I want to ask you a hardquestion, but I won't ask you a
hard question.
I'll ask you, um, Well, youknow, I always, Obviously, as an
(45:49):
organization, we're sointerested in in the prevention
space and it's it's probablyhard because you are on the the
side where the thing hashappened, right?
There's not the the preventionhas failed, for lack of a better
word, but If there's a way forus to disrupt some of the cycles
(46:09):
you've been in this for so long,is there certain things or maybe
part of your philosophy is someelements that we can take on for
ourselves in our own lives inour communities to disrupt and
help youth not land here orcommit acts of violence, which,
you know, I always say, thosethat commit acts of violence
(46:31):
also experienced violence.
Um, and that's really harmful.
I mean, I know it's easy againto villainize, but when you hurt
somebody, you were part of thatviolence and that, that hurts
your body and your soul too.
So disrupting is a positivething for everybody.
So anyway, is there any,anything that we can all do to
disrupt this a little bit?
sonya (46:52):
Um, man, I feel like
there's so many like ways I can
go with this.
Um, You know, I think for me,starting with communication and
transparency, I think.
So like, randomly, like whenpeople, I would go get my nails
done and people would ask likewhat I did for a living.
I'm like, oh yeah, I'm atreatment provider for people
(47:13):
who commit sex offenses, right?
And they're always like, well,what's the thing I can do to
protect my child?
I said, well, start gettingcomfortable with having the sex
talk.
gap (47:21):
Mm.
sonya (47:22):
You know, and so and also
body autonomy.
I think that's the biggest thingto like as whether you're a
parent or a guardian or you arearound young people, right?
Really teaching them bodyautonomy.
Like if you're six year oldniece and you're like, Hey, and
they don't want to hug yourespect that.
Right?
Right.
Because you're teaching them.
(47:43):
Hey, yeah.
Like, I don't want to be touchedright now.
Cool.
You got it.
Right?
Because I think a lot of timeshis parents or his guardians
were his elders were alwayslike, you better hug your so and
so.
Then you're teaching them thattheir body doesn't belong to
them.
gap (47:58):
Right?
So
sonya (47:58):
I think a lot of
unlearning needs to take place.
I also think we need to starthaving Appropriate healthy
conversations about sex andsexuality.
Um, because I think a lot oftimes too, right, it gets
weaponized to support someone'spower control because they're
either have had feelings ofpowerlessness, a lack of control
(48:20):
has a felt inadequate, right?
All of those things are usuallythe route in which they go into
a cycle or this progress ofengaging in harmful behavior.
gap (48:29):
Yeah.
sonya (48:29):
So if we create spaces
for them to.
be themselves and learn whatthat is for them and what that
looks like, even if it goesagainst the status quo
gap (48:37):
and
sonya (48:37):
give them that space to
do that.
I think we would break a lot ofthese cycles, you know.
And so I think, like, if we canstart there, at least, in being,
in being that safe space forsomebody to grow and develop and
be vulnerable and identifyingand knowing thyself, I think
that would, I think that woulddisrupt a lot of the cycles and
a lot of the patterns, you know,and understanding that violence
(49:00):
doesn't have to be the answer.
gap (49:02):
Right.
sonya (49:03):
You know, and finding
alternatives.
And it's, I think I can go likea lot of different directions I
can go on, but I think that's mybiggest thing is just that being
transparent and, and allowingpeople the space to define their
own human hood.
Allison (49:18):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah.
And you know, 100 percenteverything you just said there
is amazing.
And I think too, knowing as thereaction to a kid saying they
don't want to hug you or touchyou being very okay with that
and remembering like you're theadult.
So it is like, I don't want tohug being like, no worries.
(49:42):
Sometimes I don't like hugseither.
That's great.
Right?
Like just, it's normal.
It's fine.
It doesn't become like a, oh,that makes me sad.
Or like, it's not about thenprojecting a feeling onto that
kid.
It's, it's a true teaching ofthis is completely fine.
(50:02):
And above all else, I am fine.
Your hugs do not.
Make me a more valuable person,right?
Like I am valuable and securewhether I got a hug from my You
know nephew or nieces like it'sexactly it's okay And I think
that part of it too giving themthe permission and then
following through on theiranswer with yes Security a
(50:25):
secure moment.
gap (50:27):
Yeah,
Allison (50:27):
I think is important
too on
sonya (50:29):
that right and even
supporting them and Another
member doesn't have that sameresponse.
You're like, well, come on, yougot to hug me.
No, if they said that they didnot want to hug you or want to
hug right now, just take theale.
Like, it's, you know, like we,I'll give you a hug, like, you
know, but if they, they're notat a place to give out hugs or
receive hugs right now.
(50:50):
So we need to respect that.
Allison (50:52):
Oh yeah.
You know,
sonya (50:53):
I love that.
Yeah.
Allison (50:54):
That's great.
sonya (50:55):
Going back to the same
people, you know, you got to,
even if they're six, three yearsold, this, that's a person, you
just got to see them as, as aperson.
Right.
A whole person,
Allison (51:05):
a whole three year old
person, you know, that, like,
not seeing them as older oryounger, but just as a whole
where they are, you know,that's, that's your power.
That's your magic.
You, you see the kids where theyare, regardless of age or
anything.
It's that this person's personI'm sitting with, I'm sitting
with, and that's what I see andthat's who I see.
(51:27):
And that's who I'm with.
And that's a powerful tool.
I think we all have and possess.
sonya (51:34):
Absolutely.
Allison (51:35):
Amazing.
Well, thank you so much forbeing here and saying all the
incredible things that you said.
I can't thank you enough.
It was just truly amazing.
So thank you.
sonya (51:46):
You're very welcome.
Allison (51:48):
Um, till next time,
everybody, we hope you liked the
podcast and please like andsubscribe.
Bye, everybody.
intro music (51:55):
Music Outro