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June 18, 2024 41 mins

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Catcalling has been so normalized in our society that we often dismiss it and assume that it does not do any harm. Terra Lopez, host and creator of "This is What it Feels Like", joins us as she talks us through the often untold consequences that come from catcalling such as harassment, sexual assault and even murder. We walk through the power of learning  and owning what our words and actions may be doing to others and how being curious can often open doors that were closed in our hearts.

Her podcast and art installation, "This is What it Feels Like," puts people "in the shoes of everyday people at the center of issues often overlooked or politicized by society."  Terra has the incredible ability to shine light on topics that many struggle to talk through or even understand the fully gravity of,  and we are so thrilled that she was willing to share space with us and bring further understanding to the incredible work she is doing.

To learn more about the incredible work Terra is doing please listen to her podcast "This is What it Feels Like," and give them a follow  on instagram!

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Allison (00:10):
Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast.
I'm joined here today with Tara.
She's an artist, musician, andpodcast host known for her
captivating stage presencethrough thought provoking
artistry, relentless work toinspire real change in her
community, and beyond.
Tara launched This Is What ItFeels Like, an interactive
auditory exhibit where cisgendermen can experience what it feels

(00:31):
like to be a female presentingperson subjected to gender based
harassment.
The exhibit receivedinternational attention and had
over 15, 000 people experienceit at all events across the
globe.
So, Tara, welcome to thepodcast.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I guess just forcontext, can you describe this

(00:52):
exhibit to our audience a littlebit more and what it feels like
to experience it?
Absolutely.

Terra (00:59):
So back in 2016, It was a tumultuous time politically and
just in general, I feel, and Iwas sitting in on my wife's book
club and the conversation kindof started going around.
Everyone started sharing theircatcall experiences.
And as I was listening, I wasrealizing, wow, we all have them

(01:22):
and if not multiple, and theywere really scary.
Some of them were, you know,stories of being attacked,
stalked, assaulted, just sobeyond what our society normally
thinks about when you hear theterm catcalling, right?
And so, I was really angry and Iwanted to do something about it.

(01:42):
And so, I came up with the ideathat I I sketched it out on a
napkin where I was justwondering if cis men could
experience what it felt like tobe cat called.
Would that then hopefully changetheir perspective or change
their actions?
And so the exhibit quickly cametogether after that.

(02:05):
It was a long hallway, a narrowhallway, Blocked out where
there's two curtains on eachend.
And so you the person is walksthrough there's headphones
hanging in the middle of theexhibit and There's a mirror and
the idea is you put on theseheadphones.

(02:26):
It's very dark.
There's one light directly abovethe mirror And you stare at
yourself as you listen to thesecatcall experiences.
And we put a call out to folksin the community to get their
catcall experiences.
And then we had cis men go intoour recording studio and record

(02:46):
these catcalls.
And that alone was such anexperience in itself.
But the exhibit really, I wantedfolks to, one, experience it by
themselves.
That was the intention.
And also, Have it be just thisvery lone experience that was

(03:07):
centered solely on the audio.
I didn't want any distractions.
I didn't, you know, and that wasthe whole premise of having it
completely blocked out andhaving it be very minimal was I
wanted the experiences of thecat calls to be the whole
premise, the whole focus.

Allison (03:28):
What I feel like part of the uniqueness of this
experience is the fact that it'snot from the survivor
perspective.
A lot of times I feel like whenwe experience things we're being
told from that side and you kindof flip the narrative on that.
Why did you decide to have it bethe catcalls coming at

(03:50):
cisgendered men as opposed tocisgendered men experiencing
women's experiences ofcatcalling?
for listening.
You

Terra (03:57):
know, for

Allison (03:58):
me, I

Terra (03:59):
wanted, in my experience, when I have tried in the past to
speak to men about my ownpersonal experiences, I haven't
felt heard most of the time.
I'm a musician, and so for thelast, like, 15 years, I've
traveled the world, you know,playing shows, and every single
time I've stepped on stage,I've, been, uh, questioned about

(04:24):
do I know what I'm doing, youknow, and just kind of faced
with that on a consistent basis.
And so as I was talking toother, other friends and other
women in my life, they also kindof reiterated that and echoed
the sentiment that it doesn'tmatter how much I explain my
experience, I don't feel likeit's actually going to be hurt

(04:47):
unless another man listens to itfrom it.
a male perspective.
And so I really wanted to usethis exhibit as an experiment
and to see, is that the case?
Will men listen to other men andtake it seriously?
And sadly, that was

Allison (05:06):
what I found

Terra (05:06):
to be true.

Allison (05:08):
Interesting.
Yeah.
Is it when they are done walkingthrough the exhibit, is there a
general Sensor feeling thatcomes from it.
I mean, I would imagine I feellike a lot of times when we
think about really immersiveexperiences like this, we think
of.
Overwhelming people orpotentially triggering people,
putting them in a situation theycan't deal with, which I

(05:29):
typically push back on because Ithink we have to experience the
truth and the width of humanemotion.
Is that something you thinkhappens a lot of the time or
what is sort of the reactionfrom these men?

Terra (05:41):
Yeah, so that was all a concern of mine.
I definitely had a premise thetrigger warning.
There really isn't a lot ofinformation about the exhibit
before you walk in, but there isa trigger warning letting folks
know that this very well mightbe an overwhelming experience.
And so that's we have adisclaimer saying, you know,

(06:01):
spend five seconds in here.
Spend a minute in here kind ofjust whatever you as the the
person experiencing.
This can handle is totally fineIt's meant for it's meant for
that and I agree.
I do think personally that weneed to Show these experiences
and have people experience it inorder to understand the full

(06:23):
spectrum of it But you know, itwas really interesting.
We would have some men who werevery combative You at first, who
would say that we were lying,that this wasn't a real
experience that femalepresenting individuals have to
endure.
And I would then challenge themto go through the exhibit.

(06:43):
And I would say like, I'm nottrying to persuade you or tell
you how to feel.
Just go experience it and let meknow afterwards.
And every single man that wentthrough the exhibit afterwards
was shocked.
Or changed their perception orwanted to, I had quite a few

(07:05):
experiences where men would comeout with tears in their eyes and
apologize for their own actionsand be like, you know what, I
actually do this or I have donethis.
And so that was really sopowerful to see, like, okay,
this is actually working in realtime.
We also have a wall at the endof the exhibit with a simple

(07:27):
question, how did it make youfeel?
And that's kind of where we wantfolks to decompress and let us
know, you know, was thisoverwhelming?
Was this triggering?
Do you have your own experiencethat you'd like to share?
And those walls alone are justincredible testament to the

(07:47):
exhibit and to how powerful itcan be.

Allison (07:50):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I feel like one thing Iwonder about cat calling, and I
don't know if this is part ofit, is what are you trying to
get at?
What is the goal or the aim?
You know, obviously, we knowthat with any form of
harassment, there's powerdynamics and an over somebody
feeling, right?
I'm I'm I get to make you feel acertain way and I like how that

(08:12):
feels.
Did you feel like men walked inbeing like, there's no harm
because it's appealing.
There's no harm because it'sfun.
There's no, like, is that, wasthat kind of, I guess the
purpose behind it maybe feltdifferent to them than how that
purpose is received by women?
Absolutely.

(08:32):
That

Terra (08:33):
was actually a A lot of the initial feedback from men
who were kind of like, what'sthe big deal?
Or I'm just trying to be nice.
I'm just trying to like give youa compliment.
And to that, we would say, youknow, this experience can be
incredibly violent.
And can escalate very quickly.

(08:53):
And I think that that's what alot of folks don't understand,
is that an unreciprocatedcatcall can escalate so quickly
and has, and we have seen thishappen time and time again, of
folks being hurt, assaulted,even murdered for simply not
smiling back or not respondingor for standing up for

(09:14):
themselves saying, please don'ttalk to me in that way.
In doing a lot of research forthis exhibit and continuing to,
we came across a lot ofinstances where that was true,
where folks were harmed for notreciprocating a catcall, and I

(09:35):
think that that's what is alwaysmissed in the conversation of
when, you know, some say, well,I was just trying to be nice.
It's like, that's, that's great,but that's not what this is all
about.
This is about the impactoutweighs the intent, right?
And so I think that that is whatwe are really trying to convey

(09:57):
here is that I personally do notbelieve that there is anything
as a simple catcall I just don'tbelieve in that.
I think that there is actuallyalways, like you said, power
dynamics at hand and.
I've seen the escalation.
I've heard stories of howquickly things can escalate.
And it's just to me, I wouldlove to live in a world where

(10:21):
it's just not even aconversation that we have to
have anymore,

Allison (10:25):
right?
Absolutely.
And I, I think, you know, whenpeople kind of fall on the
defense line of what I didn'tmean to, or it was supposed to
be flattering or, you know,whatever kind of, I guess,
positive spin we're trying toput on it is.
Even if something feels positiveto you, it doesn't mean it felt
positive to the person thatreceived it.

(10:46):
And the culture shift is to getthat side in the power position,
the person that doesn't feelsafe.
That voice mattering more thanthe voice saying, well, I was
just having fun and I was justtrying to give a compliment.
It's like, well, if it doesn'tfeel like a compliment, then
it's not like it.

(11:06):
Right.
No matter intention.
It doesn't matter if that personreceives it as a threat or
aggressive or scary, it is that.
Do you feel like men are afterwalking through are able to get
to that space of Seeing it thatway?

Terra (11:23):
Yeah, I'll never forget a time.
There was an older man who wasvery, very combative prior to
walking through the exhibit.
Really aggressive andquestioning, you know, who did
you get this information from.
Are these people real?
I don't believe you.
And I'm like, all right, that'snot my job to make you believe

(11:45):
this, but please feel free toexperience the exhibit.
And I'd love to hear yourthoughts afterwards.
And I was expecting him to maybebe in there for like 10 seconds,
20 seconds max.
He was in there for two to threeminutes, which is a long time to
be in that exhibit.
And afterwards he came out.
And he was in tears.

(12:06):
He came up to me and thenproceeded to talk about his
daughters and also then repentfor his past actions and the
times where he had either catcalled or even went further than
that with women in his life.
And that was really heavy toexperience and to be on the

(12:27):
opposing end of that.
But it was also, um, Reallyaffirming to have him say, I'm
going to think twice next timewas truly the exact hope that we
had when creating this exhibitwas hoping that we could get
folks to come to that conclusionon their own and change their

(12:48):
own behaviors or step in and Ifthey see a friend, you know,
catcall or have some type ofbehavior step in and say, Hey,
that's not cool.
Or why are you doing that?
And so we definitely saw thishappening in real time.
And that was really powerful.
We also had I'll never forgetthis experience of a 75 year old

(13:11):
woman walking through theexhibit and she came out in
tears.
And at first I thought, oh, thiswas obviously triggering or, or,
or something, you know,resonated with her.
And she grabbed my hand and justsaid, thank you for the first
time in my life.
I feel heard.
I feel actually validated andseen.
And that was really powerful onthe complete end of the other

(13:35):
side of the spectrum to see thatpeople are feeling heard.
People are at least validated intheir own experiences.
And that Men are also seeingthat there is room to change,
and we really try to create aspace where There wasn't
judgment, but there wasaccountability, and that is, um,

(13:58):
something that we're stilltrying to kind of, you know,
find that balance of.

Allison (14:02):
Yeah, on that point, I have so many questions off of
what you just said, but I'll gowith the one there at the end
is, How do you explain thatdifference to people?
Because a lot of times, when welook at sexual violence, which
is what I'm going to classifycatcalling as, is there's a
calling out versus calling in,and we want to make someone a

(14:24):
villain, and it's not everyguy's a bad guy, or every
person's a bad person, and Iwould say no one that works in
this field is saying that.
That's not The generalnarrative, but it feels to be
the general feeling.
So how do you try to communicatethe difference between
accountability and punishment oreven a fuck you in a way?

Terra (14:49):
Totally, you know, and that was the conversations that
I tried to have before menspecifically walk through the
space.
Because there would be men whoimmediately were like, not me, I
don't do that.
Yeah.
And I'm like, that's great.
I'd still love if you would comeexperience this, if only to hear

(15:10):
the experiences and to witnessit, to bear witness to that.
I tried really hard to let menknow that, again, I'm not trying
to change your mind.
I'm not trying to tell you.
What is right necessarily.
I just want you to bear witness.
And that was kind of thelanguage that I would offer.

(15:30):
And afterwards, folks alwayswanted to talk.
It was very rare when someonewould go through the exhibit and
just walk away.
And so we would have theseconversations with men where
Again, they would want to repentfor what they did.
They'd want to disclose, uh,times where they either engaged

(15:51):
in catcalling or in assault orthey witnessed it and didn't do
something about it.
And I tried to have as muchcompassion and empathy in those
conversations because I thought,okay, here's an opportunity to
bridge this gap and to hopefullychange future behaviors.

(16:12):
I'm not saying I was perfectevery time.
It was really difficult tolisten to men disclose some of
this, but in most of theconversations, my goal was to
create a judgment free zone.
So then that way they could see.
Okay, I'm not saying you're abad person, but these actions

(16:33):
need to change and there needsto be accountability here and
you're owning up to that.
Great.
Now, let's actually do it.
Utilize that in the futurethrough action.
And so I found this exhibit andnow the podcast to be a space
where we can have thosedifficult conversations because
they are, they're so difficult,but they're so necessary in

(16:54):
order to, you know, to get folksto one, acknowledge that this
exists and that this is real,but then also to change.
Behaviors.
Um, and so that was always myintention was to create a
judgment free, empatheticenvironment.
So then that way we couldhopefully reach the folks that

(17:15):
we really needed to reach.

Allison (17:17):
Right.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think about even myown perspective of cat calling
and I've spent so much of mylife minimizing that experience,
I think partially justsocietally, it feels like that.
But, you know, if you ever kindof share like, yeah, it was cat
called, it's like, yeah,whatever, like it gets thrown
away, I guess is something Ieven in myself have this sort of

(17:39):
narrative of what is the bigdeal?
Like, It's just something thathappens.
And that's part of the gig, youknow, that's just how it is

Terra (17:48):
normalized.
Yeah, it's so normalized in oursociety.
It even took me, you know, somuch reflection to actually
understand like, Oh, yeah, I didexperience that.
And that's not okay.
Because it is just society kindof teaches us that this is what

(18:09):
to expect.
And it also teaches us to beproud, you know, if someone
comments on your looks, likethat's a compliment.
Again, it took so muchunlearning on my part, but also
researching and seeing, youknow, how much violence can be
caused from this type ofbehavior and also just how

(18:32):
quickly it escalates.
I was really inspired.
by Rebecca Solnit, who wrote MenExplain Things to Me, where she
talks about the violence thatcis men have for centuries
committed against femalepresenting individuals, and just
how that perpetuates, again,What we are expected to endure

(18:54):
and to carry with us, and wecarry so much every day with us.
And so I was just reallyinspired by her work and to
then, you know, try in my ownsmall way to create something
that would hopefully at leastjust get folks talking.
That was the biggest thing waslike, I'm not trying to change

(19:16):
every single, you know, behavioror end this completely.
I'm not that naive.
But I do think that we cancreate art to then bring these
discussions to the forefront.
And that's how you change minds.
And that's how you changebehavior.

Allison (19:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it's, that's sort of theempathy piece, right?
Is that none of us are perfectabout any change, whether it's
in the category of catcalling orany other societal Quote unquote
norm that we're trying to changeor reframe it is difficult for
everybody and it's about takingthe time and I think even having

(19:55):
the humility to admit that maybeyou don't know, maybe you don't
know what it's like to becatcalled or maybe you don't
know the extreme experiencesthat people have had and that In
our action of making it small,we silence people, which is the
harm of throwing an experienceaway.

(20:18):
And I think the power of yourexhibit is it gives people an
understanding of how damaging itis to throw away someone's
experience of being catcalled orin anything, whatever that
experience is.

Terra (20:29):
Yeah, I mean, you bring up such great points, and that
is truly empathy and compassionwas what, we built this entire
idea off of was rather thancalling out men, calling them in
and, trying to have them be apart of this conversation and,

(20:51):
and not be separated from it.
Because I do believe that thatis truly how we're going to be
able to see progress in anyaspect of life is unfortunately
like.
Thank you.
I don't think people understandthat.
I think we, we do have to bridgethose gaps of understanding in

(21:12):
order to actually see progress.
And so for us, it was with theexhibit.
Now with the podcast, how do wecreate these conversations and
create these safer spaces forfolks to be able to admit I
messed up or I don't know theanswer, or I have so many

(21:32):
questions because I think that'show we learn.

Allison (21:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
as you were mentioning thepodcast, and I think it's a good
place to kind of go, you talkabout this is what it feels like
is the name of the podcast.
And also, it's not just theexperience around catcalling,
it's around abortion, suicide,healthcare for different
identities.
And, You know, what is your kindof goal?

(21:57):
It's starting the conversationin the safe spaces, but why
focus on, I guess what feelslike the fringes at times, which
isn't by the way, I mean,abortion, we know is very
common.
Everyone needs access tohealthcare in a equal and
inclusive way.
But what I think we often arelike, oh, well, why talk about
this?
It only impacts no one in mylife.

(22:20):
So listen, why learn?
Why enter that space?
It was

Terra (22:25):
so important to me because every single day I would
meet people, whether they wereclose friends in my life or
strangers, that did have theseexperiences.
And I realized, like, we allhave so many questions but are
so afraid to ask them.
Which is understandable.
We live in a society that isvery quick to blame or to shame.

(22:48):
And so, for me, I wanted to beable to create these safer
spaces for individuals to sharetheir stories.
I truly feel that there are, weall have a story, multiple
stories.
We've all lived so many lives,and there are so many stories
that I feel so passionate aboutthat I do believe need to be
heard.

(23:09):
You know, it all started withThe catcalling experience, but
then it quickly went to, youknow, I lost my father to
suicide about eight years ago,and I felt in that experience,
like, I couldn't talk about itfor so many years because there
is so much shame and stigmaaround mental health and losing

(23:30):
someone to suicide,specifically, and I tried for
years to find communities orfolks to be able to talk to and
just didn't really findanything.
And so.
When it came time to creatingthe first episode for the
podcast, I knew that I wanted itto be about losing a parent to
suicide and also about mentalhealth for men, because I feel

(23:54):
like that is, again, a subjectthat we don't talk about enough.
And we don't allow the space forpeople to talk about it.
And so, again, with thispodcast, it really is just, you
know, it's not trying to changethe world in any way, but it is
trying to create these dialoguesand create these spaces where we
can have these harderconversations and ask questions

(24:18):
that, We want, you know, we'recurious about, but maybe we
don't know if it's okay to ask.
And so, for me, it really isabout, I find, obviously,
communication is the easiest wayto understand another person, to
understand a divide, and to fixany type of division, I believe,
starts with communication.

(24:39):
And so, for this, Podcast, Iknew I want to talk to people
whose voices are historicallyunderrepresented in media and go
from there.
And so season one was really,you know, trying to just find
individuals that have incrediblestories to share, but just maybe

(25:00):
not the platform to share them.

Allison (25:02):
Yeah, do you feel like in having these conversations,
part of your hope from thelisteners is to not get caught
up in semantics and properlanguage to brush away from that
and see that these, you know,every person behind the story is
a person.
So they're also not like,Professors in abortion rights,

(25:24):
they probably don't work forACLU, right, that they're just a
person that had an abortion forthe many reasons that you do,
and they want to talk about itand not even as you know, I feel
I find this with survivors ofassault is that they just want
to say the words they don'tnecessarily.
But they're so afraid of sayingthe wrong thing and then people

(25:44):
are so afraid of asking it inthe wrong way that the
conversation disappears.
It's part of the hope to give anavenue where that feels less
scary.

Terra (25:54):
Absolutely, it was very intentional on my part to not
have experts on this podcast,because one, I'm not a reporter.
And there are so many spaces forthose experts to share their
knowledge.
And I love that.
But this podcast is it's for thehuman behind that experience.

(26:15):
That's so important to me.
Because like you said, If we'retoo afraid to ask the questions
and to have the conversation,then it never happens.
And then that person'sexperience is buried.
And it's so important to me thatwe are able to provide a space
where we ask the questions andwe go there and we sometimes the

(26:40):
conversation can get messy andthat is what it is because I
don't know everything aboutthese topics like at all.
I am just a, you know, normalperson off the street, but it's
curious about that experienceand I want us to be able to talk
about it.
I want the person behind on theother side of the conversation

(27:00):
to be able to feel heard andseen and validated, not judged,
and to be able to truly.
Share every single aspect oftheir story, and I want to be
able to ask the questions justto understand the experience a
little bit more, but I thinkit's so important.
You know, I've had so manypeople reach out and just say,

(27:22):
like, thank you.
Thank you for asking thatquestion because I've really
wanted to, but didn't know itwas okay to and that's Kind of
what it's all about, you know,as long as it's in a respectful
way, obviously, but for me, I'mjust curious.
I'm so curious.
I want to know more aboutindividuals and their stories,

(27:44):
and I truly believe that we allhave one.
And yeah, it was reallyimportant to me to not have
experts on the

Allison (27:50):
show.
Yeah, I mean, true curiosity isdisarming.
When we are Truly curious, whichmeans we come into something
without really expectation.
We just are like, tell me aboutit.
Say whatever.
It's just, it's such a openingway to go about any conversation
is to be super curious.

(28:12):
You know, you have a veryspecific tie to the conversation
around suicide.
When you started sort of sharingor opening up the space for
that, what was that like?
For you, what kind of came outof taking that chance?
I think for a lot of people,it's hard to take that step to
say, I'm going to inviteconversation around something

(28:35):
that has hurt my heart and insuch a major way, I think for a
few

Terra (28:39):
years, I didn't.
And because of that, I felt veryalone in that experience.
Very isolated.
misunderstood and just again,just very, very alone.
And then when I started to openup about it, I realized there
are so many people who also haveexperienced this on some level.

(29:01):
And there was such communityaround that.
And that made me feel inspiredto not only talk about my own
experience, but to be there forothers.
I'll never forget the time I wasopen about it online and I
played a show in Boston and afather came up to me at the
merch booth afterwards and justsaid, thank you so much for

(29:23):
being so open about how it feltlosing your father in that way,
because I'm a father of two andI now know after hearing your
experience that I cannot dothat.
To my children.
That's not an option for meanymore.
And I just realized that's why.
That's the power of sharing yourstory.
Because you never know how it'sgoing to impact someone, or if

(29:44):
it will.
And I just ever since have justbeen so passionate about being
an advocate for mental health,being open.
If anyone has thoughts,feelings, questions, I want to
be able to support, but I foundcommunity in being able to share
my story.

(30:04):
And I think that that's whatindividuals who go on this
podcast also find being able tonot only share your story, but
to feel heard is so powerful.
And I think there is so muchpower in just realizing like,
Oh, I'm not alone in thisexperience, even though at the

(30:24):
time it can feel like no oneelse is going to understand what
this feels like.
It's so important to kind ofrealize like there are people
out there who are going to getit.
And through that, I feel likethere's just so much to learn
and also just so much to buildtogether.

Allison (30:42):
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, inherently by sharingour story, we're giving a part
of it to someone that's kind ofthe definition of sharing.
Right.
If I have a cookie and I sharemy cookie, I gave part of it to
another person.
Right.
And stories are the same.
If we share our story, we give apart of it to somebody.
It's no longer just ours tocarry, to live with, to own.

(31:05):
It's a Gift that we're givingand as you've created that
space, do you feel lightnesskind of come over people, you
know, I, I always find it reallyhard to describe, but you can
spend an hour talking about theheaviest thing, right?
It's, it's someone maybe goingdeep into their story and you
leave it and everyone's kind of.

(31:27):
Smiling or, and kind of is like,Oh my gosh, that was amazing.
Or not amazing, but everyone,everyone has kind of a hard
time.
What is your experience like increating that space for people?

Terra (31:38):
Yeah, it is wild.
Like, if you look on thesurface, just on paper, of the
topics that we look at, they areheavy topics.
Abortion, suicide, mentalhealth, ageism.
Like, they're heavy topics,right?
But, like you said, I thinkpeople feel lighter afterwards.
I've had people share theirstories for the very first time

(32:00):
with me, and only me.
Folks who have not talked totheir own families about.
their experience have come ontothe podcast and that is really
powerful for them.
You see the shift before theconversation, during the
conversation, and afterwards.
There is a lightness.
There's also the feeling ofcommunity of like, okay, we've

(32:20):
shared this.
We have this baseline knowledgeof each other now, and you
understand me just a little bitbetter.
And I think that that's just sopowerful.
People have you know, afterwardsreached out and said, whether it
was a week or a month after theconversation, like, thank you so
much.
I didn't realize how much Ineeded to talk about that.

(32:44):
Or, you know, it was healing.
It was a healing experience.
And I think it's funny becausewe carry so much every single
day of our lives.
We carry so much.
And I think, you know, that'sjust part of the human
experience.
That is what we are kind ofprogrammed.
To feel it is just like keepgoing, but it's like if you

(33:06):
actually sit down and talk aboutan experience, you realize like,
wow, that was really weighingheavy on my heart.
And I've let that go now.
And so, yeah, I feel that eventhough each topic is really
heavy.
There's always a lightness, evenwithin the episode of and it's
it comes at the most unexpectedplaces and times, but there is

(33:30):
so much to say about justsharing your story with people.
It truly

Allison (33:36):
is like a physical weight lifted off of you.
Totally.
And I think that's the powerthat anyone listening can do is
we can all create space and youhave to.
It has to be intentional.
You know, I think a lot of timespeople feel so nervous.
To share their story becausethey're like I don't want to
burden people.
I don't want to overwhelmpeople.
No one wants to listen to thisand Sometimes we just have to

(34:00):
literally say like in for thenext hour.
We're gonna share something kindof big in our lives that maybe I
don't know about you or maybeit's hard to talk about and And
I think that that is with thatintentionality, our stories also
feel less burdensome, you know,I don't know how you feel, but
when someone shares their story,I don't leave being like, Oh,
well, fuck that was can't handlethat.

(34:22):
I feel like I'm in it with them.
I feel like I'm, I was so luckythat I get to be a part of this
journey.
with no part of me is like, Oh,that was a burden.
I guess that's not a feeling Iget.

Terra (34:35):
No.
And I feel like when you shareyour story, you're then giving
others permission to sharetheirs.
And so to me, that's thegreatest gift.
Like you were saying, um, I feelalways honored to be able to
share that space with someoneand to have that trust between
us that they feel Thatcomfortable enough to talk about

(34:58):
these harder experiences becausethe truth is we all have had
hard Experiences at varyinglevels and so it's something
that we can at a baseline we canall at least Understand that
aspect and so yeah, I feel likeby sharing your own story You
are then giving otherspermission to do so and that is

(35:21):
huge

Allison (35:21):
Yeah,

Terra (35:22):
it's

Allison (35:22):
a big deal.
Yeah, to kind of go back to theexhibit, why take an artistic
look at something that doesn'tfeel very artistic, like
catcalling?
And I mean, you're also amusician, so art is at the heart
of you, I would say as a person,but what kind of led to that
experience over Just simplydoing a podcast from the get or

(35:43):
maybe song writing about it, youknow, why that specific
platform?

Terra (35:48):
That's a great question.
I just felt so compelled to haveit be direct in person and
Almost provocative.
I felt like again No matter howmuch I talk about my experience
or someone else talks abouttheir experience, I truly feel

(36:10):
like a person has to embody thatexperience in order to truly
understand or to have deepcompassion for something.
And so that was kind of how Ijust felt like I was.
And still feel like the worldworks really and so my idea was,
you know, I could sing a songabout this But I don't think

(36:31):
it's gonna reach the way that Iwant it to reach I want it to be
direct and I do want someone tophysically step into that space
And so I don't know why theartistic route to be honest It
was just the initial thought wasI got to create a space an
immersive space where folks canphysically, mentally,

(36:56):
emotionally experience thisbecause that's the only way that
they're going to care at the endof the day.

Allison (37:03):
It sounds so powerful.
Is there any exhibits coming upor spaces that people can
experience that?
Yeah,

Terra (37:10):
so I'm talking to quite a few colleges at the moment to
try to bring this is what itfeels like back to life prior to
the pandemic we were everywhereand it was incredible and then
of course the pandemic happened,which is why I turned it into a
podcast format so now that we'reout of that hopefully I'm

(37:31):
starting to look into bringingit back into physical spaces so
talking to a lot of colleges atthe moment and working with
government.
Officials to try to bring it toother cities is definitely the
plan for 2024 2025.

Allison (37:47):
Amazing.
Go follow you all on Instagramfor updates and all of those
things.
And then you have season two ofthe podcast in the works.
Right now, what can we kind oflook forward to hearing in
season two?

Terra (38:02):
Yeah.
So we have a lot of differenttopics that we want to cover
specifically, probably one ofthe first episodes will be about
the medical system and feelinggaslit by your doctor.
We've had so many people reachout with their own experiences
for that.
And so I think that that's areally important story.
We also want to share queerelder stories and advice because

(38:26):
For myself, as a queer person, Inever saw myself as growing old,
uh, because I didn't see itaround me, you know?
And so I just kind of thoughtlike, okay, I'm going to die
young.
And I found that to be asentiment that a lot of queer
folks could resonate with.
So I'm really excited abouttalking to elders and getting

(38:47):
their insight and advice andwisdom.
And just kind of, you know,their perspective on history as
we've seen through the decades.
So we're covering a lot.
We're covering, um, so much fromchoosing not to have children
to, gosh, so much.

Allison (39:06):
I love that.
I think it's really good.
Even, even as you bring up thosetopics, it makes my brain start
to think of things differently.
And also as a queer person,just, you know, I've never
thought about whether I thoughtI was going to grow old or not,
but I'm thinking about it like,Oh, I don't know.
I guess maybe I didn't.
That's interesting.

Terra (39:21):
Right.
It was something that like, Ijust never, I couldn't see
myself.
I couldn't picture and I didn'tsee.
older queer folks around me.
And so, um, it's a conversationthat I'm still kind of having
with myself and also withfriends where we're like, we
need some representation here.

(39:41):
We need to talk to folks.
I have so many questions and Ithink that there's so much
wisdom there to be shared.
So I'm really excited about thatone.

Allison (39:50):
Absolutely.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Is there anything else you wantour listeners to know or to take
with them in this episode?
I just want to

Terra (40:01):
thank you for doing this work.
I am such a big fan of the workthat y'all are doing, and it's
so, so important to have theseconversations.
So I feel honored to be able tobe here.

And if https (40:11):
otter.
ai T I W I F L P O D at gmail.
com.
Well, that's the email and thenT I W I F L project on
Instagram.
But I just thank you so much forhaving me.
This has been awesome.

Allison (40:31):
Yeah, it's been really great.
And I mean, Sam, the work you'redoing is, is truly inspiring and
incredible.
And so thank you for being apart of.
the larger conversations that weall need to hear and get curious
about.
And I think it's very powerful.
We will also post all of thoselinks in the episode notes.
So go check it out and followalong.
And thanks again for being here.

(40:51):
Thank you so much.
Bye everybody.
Feeling

music (40:55):
is here.
Safety is right here.
We are back in the silence,starting the conversation.
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