May 21, 2025 • 46 mins
As we continue our conversation with Shenea, we get to dive deeper into her experience with USA Gymnastics, the intense role that silence played in her journey, and how one of the greatest displays of love we can give is our willingness to hold people accountable.
Part 2 offers up even more roads for advocacy, what questions we can ask those who are interacting with our kids, and how she defines safety for those actively in competition.
To learn more about Shenea and the incredible work she’s doing, visit her website: https://circuspreneur.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome back to the PodcastBreakers.
I just wanted to send a friendlyreminder that this is part two
of our interview with Shanae.
I hope that you really enjoy thefirst part of her story as she
talked us through how we cankeep our kids safer, whether
that's in sports circusentertainment, doing films and
movies or plays, whatever ourkids might be interested in
(00:22):
doing, we all can be activeparticipants in making sure that
they stay safe.
In the second part, we're gonnago a little bit deeper into her
story and the experience thatshe had with us gymnastics, and
the ways that silence was reallypervasive throughout her
experience.
Even in places where we thinkthat things are being taken care
of when we wanna manipulatepower, usually the first step in
(00:45):
that is by silence.
Having that awareness, knowingwhat to look for, continuing to
ask questions of theinstitutions that we interact
with is so important to makingsure that we stay safe and our
kids stay safe.
She goes much deeper into that,and I really hope that you will
listen to this part of her storyand continue to engage with us
(01:06):
online in the notes, in thechats on social media, and
engage with Shanae on her socialmedia.
All of those wonderful things,and of course, keep yourself
safe.
Take your time, do what you needto do, and if you need to take
this episode in parts, please dothat.
We hope you enjoy this nextepisode of the Breaking Silence
(01:28):
Podcast.
Shanae (01:39):
You will come into spaces now where folks can
pretty much get away and dowhatever they want.
And I know that's kind ofterrifying for parents to hear.
Yeah.
Especially when they feel likethese environments are getting
so much better.
But now we have.
Something else to worry about.
And so, you know what my work isat this point is getting, an
extension of SafeSport that issafe art or safe circus, where
(02:00):
it would be a branch of the USCenter for SafeSport.
And so you wouldn't feel likethere's nowhere you can go if
you're in a circus program, in acircus school or in a performing
arts space and you think, wow,there's maybe some not great
behavior going on here.
There's maybe abuse happening.
Where do we go?
Directly to the police.
Where do we go?
(02:20):
Because the police cannot alwayshelp you or be the answer to all
of your issues and all of yourproblems when you are in spaces
where there is abuse that'shappening.
You know?
That's why again, the US Centerfor SafeSport is so important
because it teaches you the laws,it teaches you what are your
legal rights.
Any situation.
And then also too, what's thelegal responsibility for the
(02:41):
national governing bodies?
And I hope now that they willhave the right to go in and say,
what are the legal rights tothis dance space?
Right?
To this dance studio, to thiscircus school, to this theater
club, which again, folks think.
There are these systems ofguidelines and things like that,
but there's not, and the morethat I got into my environment
(03:02):
with circus and in being in thecircus environment and being in
these different programs, themore I saw that there was a need
for just as much legislation andpolicy as the environments that
I came out of and have beenadvocating around for so many
years now, and seeing just howimportant it is that I think, to
me is the only way.
To change these environmentswith a combination, obviously,
(03:24):
of advocates and of boots on theground.
You know, that is obviouslyincredibly important, but there
needs to be, I think, like athree-pronged approach to these
environments in terms ofregulating them properly because
the abuse is so cunning and somanipulative, and is so smart
the way that they will navigatearound anything that's been put
(03:45):
in place.
And how abusers operate, theywill find a way.
And so that's why it's importantto keep these environments
evolving.
You know, nothing is set instone, whether it be policy or
any kind of rules or any kindof.
Bring a bit of actions becausefrom my experiences, they just
keep on getting more and moreevasive trying to outsmart
(04:08):
things that folks feel have beenput in place and who could get
around that.
But we've seen it's definitelypossible.
Alli (04:14):
Yeah.
And I, I think when you thinkabout how long abuse tends, you
know, here, gymnastics is a goodexample of abuse was taking
place for.
Decades of multiple people, butthere wasn't roads.
And it's hard to be a parent.
It's hard to be a kid that'sexperiencing abuse and to not
(04:38):
know where to go, what is mypoint of contact, to tell
someone what is going on and tokind of release myself from
having to know what to do,having to have the answers.
Even I think as kids, you know,I'm a, I'm a survivor as well,
of childhood abuse, and I wasable to report my abuse because
(05:01):
I learned in school what amandatory reporter was.
And I only learned that throughhelping a friend who was
suicidal.
But having, it was a, it becamea road.
I understood for the first timethat if I told an adult.
At the school, what was goingon.
They would have the answers andit was the solution.
(05:23):
But without that information, itfeels like there are no
solutions.
It feels like there is no pathto carry forward.
And what SafeSport is doing,what you're talking about
creating is that road.
Is it perfect?
No.
Are there problems within it?
Of course.
But we can amend something thatexists.
(05:43):
We can't amend something thatdoesn't.
So in your process, how, how didyou, and where did you end up
going in reporting and how didyou find that road?
And obviously it's so, it's sopassionate of yours because you
can tell, like you don't wantsomeone to have to find the
road.
You want the road to just bethere.
(06:05):
You need it.
It's accessible.
And again, we can change it.
We can make it better once it'sthere.
But that's so much harder to do.
How did you build that road foryourself?
Shanae (06:14):
Well, you know, ally, for me, in my experience, my
road was, you know, it was avery sad road.
And that's why Yeah.
I think, you know, advocating,you know, so hard, you know,
it's been, it's been a decadenow because there was no road.
And so even, you know, in myexperience there were children
that were.
That we're telling adults.
(06:34):
Yeah.
That we're telling the mandatoryreporters we are being abused.
Like these horrible things arehappening to us.
Help us.
Yeah.
We had mandatory reporterssaying, oh God, you know, not
helping us hiding it, hiding theabuse and experiencing that
because I always like folks toknow about what my experience
was like and seeing.
(06:54):
Adults in the room not do theright thing, knowing that there
were certain roads that theyrefused to take.
Mm-hmm.
And that they were doing this tochildren.
However, again, like I said,there was not the network that
there is now, there wasn't thethreat because everything was
being done in house essentially,right.
Where they were saying, we canpolice ourselves.
Like all of these biginstitutions you see nowadays
(07:15):
that are like, ugh.
We don't need to go in front ofCongress.
We can handle everything on ourown.
Just give us more money.
Yeah, give us more money andmore subsidies, and then we will
handle everything and then we'llput out a report that's
generated by us and let you knowhow well we're doing.
Right?
Like that's essentially, youknow what USA gymnastics was
doing?
They had all the files.
I mean, they had my file.
(07:35):
My file was a part of one of thebig stories that came out.
They had my file just hidden inthe back because my coach had
been reported for so many years.
Mm-hmm.
And so this was a 20 year arc offolks coming, reporting and
being intimidated, losing theirpositions by reporting him
parents saying.
We don't actually wanna go tothe police over this.
(07:55):
We'd rather just take our kidout and move on with our lives.
And so we know when the policecame to my door when I was an
adult, I was very much an adultat that point, and I had been
living with this for so manyyears and had just told one or
two close people to me.
Still at that point was sobrainwashed into not revealing
all of these horrific, you know,things that had happened to me.
(08:18):
And the police had to come to mebecause my coach was using his
son's Facebook account to preyon little girls in the gym.
And when they came to me.
With the evidence and with theother victims.
And, you know, that was my timeand my decision to be the adult
that I finally understood that Iwas.
And that's a, that's a journeyof a survivor when you realize I
(08:40):
am no longer a child.
I now have the power of theadult that had that power those
many years ago.
That, you know, children werecoming to, and yet this person
still was coaching.
They were still traveling.
Nothing happened to them.
They were reported so manytimes.
People that were consideredpresidents of organizations knew
directly about these people anddid nothing.
They chose to save face.
(09:02):
And to pay people off and tokind of throw children under the
bus.
And you know, I love that youalways come back to this alley
of, these are children.
We were children.
And I think sometimes it'sdifficult when we're retelling
our stories sometimes becausewe're always retelling our
stories as adults, right?
Because like you said, reportingusually comes 10 plus years.
That is, that is completelynormal.
(09:23):
And even folks now you know thatare saying, well, you know, what
are the numbers?
And I always tell them.
The numbers are never where theyreally are right now.
Mm-hmm.
The numbers are always coming 10years down the line.
So whatever, you know, stock ofkids that you have right now,
just know that there is a highpercentage of them that may say
nothing for 10 years and that Ihope will continue to change
(09:46):
with the education within theseenvironments, you know, with
organizations.
Breaking the islands with thework of rain that they're doing
so powerfully with the work ofthe US Center for SafeSport and
having boots on the ground andinserted even more into, you
know, into these environments.
So for me, it was goingundercover with the police,
getting a recorded confession.
It was one of the scariestexperiences of my life doing
(10:09):
that.
And speaking to my abuser,David, Rick.
All those years later andgetting this recorded confession
from him, you know, goingthrough those, the trials and
the criminal cases, and then,you know, a seven year long
settlement that we, you know,just finalized against USA
gymnastics and U-S-O-P-C andtestifying, you know, testifying
through Zoom, over the pandemic,all of these things, and
(10:31):
learning all of these skillsthat I wish that I'd never
known.
Hmm.
However, I feel like when youare thrust into living these
experiences, bit by bit, youlearn something that almost
can't be taught.
'cause the amount of informationand knowledge and experiences
that I have now and reflectingand advocating for policy and
going to dc which I do often,several times a year, to
advocate in front along withother survivors and hearing
(10:54):
their stories and hearing thedifferent nuances of their
stories and their experiences.
That is what set me up to be theadvocate that I am now and to
say, when I speak to parents,have you gone to the police?
Have you gone to the center forSafeSport or have you contacted
an organization with rain?
If you have not done any ofthose things, we need to talk
(11:14):
and why?
Yeah.
'cause to me that is athree-prong approach that I'm
talking about.
If you have not gone to thepolice, if you have not gone to
the US Center for SafeSport, andif you have not sought out a
huge, or even a smallorganization that.
Educate and provides resources,which they are there.
I would like to know why in thisday and age in 2025, you have
decided to not do that.
(11:35):
If you are witnessing harm, ifyou suspect harm, or if you are
seeking to educate yourself, toprotect your child.
And then also too, do you knowabout the policies that are in
place right now that are gonnahold those spaces accountable?
Because that is very importantand I often hear.
A lot of, you know, folks in theenvironments are not just
talking about parents.
(11:56):
Most people don't know any ofthe legislation.
They don't know what thelegislation was for, what it
means that, you know, theseinstitutions are legally now
obligated to do.
Because just because they'relegally obligated doesn't mean
that they do them.
Mm-hmm.
And we've seen that with agymnastics and the US Center for
SafeSport, where they have said,we're just so overwhelmed with
so many cases, we can't abide bythe law.
(12:18):
Literally, so by the.
Educating ourselves as muchabout this as we are about your
child's bar routine and theirscore, the they mean is gonna be
of the utmost importance.
Because if you can tell me whatyour kid needs to get to get the
(12:40):
nationals, but you can't tell meabout any of the policies that
are in place, that these peoplemight be breaking in your face
to get away with something, thenthat is a really big problem for
me.
And I don't think that you havethe opportunity to say
carelessly now that you justdon't know and you're not
educated.
That at this point is a choice,and it's one for me that it
comes at too high of a cost withthe destruction and the
(13:02):
disgusting behavior.
I have seen perpetrated againstchildren in youth sports and as
adults, and also too in thecircus and the performing arts
environments that are getting.
More and more out there andpeople are starting to share and
come forward more.
But it's very similar to, youknow, first gymnastics, we don't
need any of that, or thisenvironment is never gonna need
that, or this environment isnever gonna change.
(13:23):
We could never legislate thisenvironment.
We could never change thesethings.
It's always gonna be the wayit's always been.
And I heard that my entirechildhood.
Even throughout the process ofus coming forward with our
stories, people were, weretelling us.
It doesn't matter if you guyscame forward.
Nothing is ever going to happen.
No one's ever going to undo thisenvironment the way that it is.
(13:44):
And you know, there's still alot to do.
There's still a lot of people Ido not believe should be in
these environments, whether it'sin USA gymnastics or at the US
Center for SafeSport or in theperforming arts world.
These people still have got togo.
That's the difficult part.
And seeing the great changesthat have been made, the great
gains, you can't say that therehasn't just been amazing gains
(14:05):
over the last seven years, butthe fact that there are still
other things that have notchanged is very disconcerting
and it's very hard to see, andit's very hard to still interact
in environments with people thatI know are.
Or have been part of the problemfor a very long time, let alone
the people that should have goneto prison and gone to jail and
never did.
And so I hope that we continueto create these environments
(14:26):
where it's not the exception,it's the rule that folks are
held accountable, lawfully.
They're not just given a slap onthe wrist and they're not just
moved to somewhere else.
That they are legally andlawfully held accountable in a
way that we haven't seen in thepast.
And I know that that is probablyone of the only ways.
To make this environment, theenvironment that it's supposed
to be, whether it's in youthsports or it's sending your
(14:47):
child in the performing arts,which at this point is more
along the lines of what aboutlike 90% of parents are going to
do from what I see?
Alli (14:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think exactly you're,there has to be checks and
balances, and there has to bemany ways towards change, right?
Like this is a complex systemthat has been built for a very
long time, and when you'rechanging a complex system, it's.
A lot of different approachesfor things to come together and
(15:16):
work just like building it inthe first place is that building
a new structure is gonna besimilar and so learn it.
I think what you said about likeknowing someone's routine, I
coach soccer and I swear likefiguring out what leagues and
levels of soccer, it's likeresearching the constitution.
It is so layered and complex andif.
(15:40):
Parents can do that.
If coaches can do that, we alsomm-hmm.
Can learn and understand therequirements that SafeSport
holds us to as coaches andmm-hmm.
What we need to do in order tobe on the field and for parents
to know that and deeply knowthat, and to ask us questions
and we should have answers tothem.
(16:01):
And if we don't, we need to be.
Taught them or held accountablefor the reasons we don't.
You know, I think it's such agood point that if you are gonna
have your kid in competitivesport knowing their rights, just
like you know, their level ofplay or their routine, or if
they're the lead of this playand how many hours they spent
(16:22):
practicing their lines, do youalso know how is the director
setting up the culture?
What does that look like forthem?
Is this space.
Friendly and creative.
Or dictorial and unkind and why.
Right.
And that is okay.
And asking questions always is abig deal.
But it's that and piece I thinktoo of what you're saying.
(16:45):
And then the performing arts andthe circus industry sounds like
as well, these checks andbalances just don't really
exist.
It's only one.
And that should be a red flag,right?
If it's this one union.
This one group is giving us allthe stats.
We should always question it.
Also, to your point, stats arekind of be us, and at the end of
(17:09):
the day, we know abuse ishappening.
So whether that's to 50% or 1%,I don't care.
I don't think we should care.
It should be.
Abuse is happening, so we needto prevent it.
The big numbers to me sometimesfreeze people and I think
breaking that down and beinglike, does it really matter if a
kid's getting harmed, a kid'sgetting harmed?
Right?
So let's have checks andbalances there.
(17:31):
And for you being anentertainer, what do you feel
like besides having safeentertainment, having these
other agencies, what are waysthat parents can help?
Build this culture a littledifferently in the art space
because I think it does havethat gymnastics feel of I'm
gonna make your kid a star.
(17:52):
I'm gonna take them at a veryyoung age and they're gonna make
a lot of money.
You know, I think that might bea little bit different from
gymnastics.
I'm not sure if you made moneyperforming, but kids
entertainment do make money andwe protect their finances, but
do we protect.
As entities, so kind of how doyou see that playing out?
(18:15):
You live and breathe it.
I mean, in the entertainmentworld and also at adult levels,
right?
Adults are being harmed, adultsare being abused and assaulted
as well.
Not, this isn't just kids incircus and entertainment.
So can you hit that a little bitdeeper?
Shanae (18:30):
Yes.
That's so great.
All of that feedback, Allie, andthe questions about, I love that
you're saying that it's not justthe children that are going into
these entertainment spaces.
It is adults.
I mean, I've.
I've been abused as an adult inthe circus industry, and I'm
even someone that feels like Iam educated, and that's been my
journey as a survivor of cominginto spaces and the same
(18:54):
patterns are playing out becauseyou're always going to be
working through those patterns.
You're.
Always gonna be working throughthose symptoms of abuse.
And especially if you go into anenvironment that is so similar,
it's a lot of the same peoplethat cross over from your
sporting world into theperforming arts world.
It, it really is.
Many times the people that yousend your kids to those camps
(19:15):
are the same people.
That'll be the judge.
And so you think you can dance?
Mm-hmm.
They've been going to conferences with them as little
dancers for like 10, 15 years,and then suddenly those are the
people that are gonna hire themto go on Beyonce's tour or be
their choreographer.
Does your child know theirrights?
Because they're gonna be aroundvery similar mindsets.
(19:35):
They're not gonna just usuallybe thrust more or less into
these environments that are.
So, so, so outrageouslydifferent.
They might end up performingwith a teammate.
Mm-hmm.
So it's like, oh, one of myteammates is there, or actually
one of my old coaches is now acoach of Cirque de Sole.
How about that?
Mm-hmm.
Or the scouts.
The scouts from a bigentertainment company, or an
agent used to be a judge incompetition.
(19:58):
Now they're a scout.
Now they're an agent.
Now they're a manager, nowthey're a casting director.
It's understanding all of thesecrossovers before you allow your
child to go into theseenvironments and educating them.
Now that education starts now,especially within the performing
arts world and, and, andadapting their competitive
(20:20):
careers into these spaces,because I would say at least,
maybe even now, it's like, Idon't know the percentage, but
maybe like 50% of nationalgoverning bodies of.
Board are go, are going into theperforming arts, whether it's
break dance, you know, it'scrazy.
I mean, you have so many and,and sports that people don't
even think about.
You know, even if it's karate orTaeKwonDo, these are all sports
that are going into theperforming arts world.
(20:41):
So, you know, not thinking like,or if it's cheer or if it's
stunt, they're all being broughtinto Cirque de SLE in these
spaces.
For me, you know, I see a lot ofparents wanting their children
to go viral.
I have such a big issue withthat.
I, you know, I've beenadvocating for so many bills to
hold Facebook and, and spacesaccountable for allowing
(21:03):
materials of children to beprofiteer on, on online.
But I also, again, wanna bringthis back because we're holding,
we're trying to hold themaccountable.
Right.
But what is the other part ofthat?
Of wanting to hold yourselfaccountable.
For example, wanting your childto go viral online.
Is it the best thing?
I know it's about monetizing.
I know it's about letting themget their start when they're
(21:23):
young.
And I did actually make money asa child performer when I was a
little kid.
And we're seeing this also tooin circus where the parents are
allowing their kids to go andthey're like, but they're gonna
make money.
They're gonna go on, they'regonna union protected.
They're coach.
To now drive their child to goto a GT or to go to the little
(21:47):
job that they have and make alittle bit of money, which
they're usually not paying themproperly.
They're usually allowing them toperform in spaces that are very
adult and at the same token.
For going to a gymnasticscompetition or going to any
sporting competition.
They're like, oh, no, no, no.
There's guidelines around that.
We can't possibly let them dothat, but you just let them go
(22:08):
and get driven to do an a taudition without you.
Right?
Oh, that's fun.
That's a part of their career.
And we're gonna use this moneyfor competition and we're gonna
save it.
And then they're gonna use that,and then they can go to college
and then it's gonna be in theirfund.
All of these things that they'retelling them, oh, they have this
new, so, you know, I have a lotof feelings and judgements
around allowing your child to beon social media, even if you're
(22:29):
the one controlling it.
Because this already sets thetone for what they feel is
accessible for them and for theway they're going to see
themselves.
You know, you don't know howanybody might access them in the
future from what you started forthem, of when they're younger
and is that gonna be dangerousto them?
You know, somewhere down theline.
Again, this mentality, thementality and the brainwashing
(22:51):
and the cultish like behavioraround the entertainments and
the arts of thinking that oneday my child will make it and be
famous.
And it really comes down tothat.
So powerfully Ali, I don't thinkthat I can underscore that
enough because I see the parentsgoing so hard for that so much,
and even the ones that don'tthink that they're blinded by
the possibility, of having thosewords fall off their tongue of
(23:15):
what your child is doing.
I mean, I'm sure we see it evennow with NIL.
I mean that was not something,right, just even a few years ago
with children having access tonow.
That's all I hear when I come tospaces we wanna do in n viral.
And everyone loves it, and howdo we make sure that happens and
they're on scholarship, allthose things.
It's a sickness.
And that's the new, that's thenew patterning.
(23:37):
Everybody thinks like it'ssupposed to look like it did in
the past.
No.
Now there's just new buzzwords.
Like now there's just new wordsto hijack your childhood or
hijack your child's protectionsand safety.
And they're just gonna usedifferent words than what we
used just, 3, 4, 5, 10, 15 yearsago.
But the abusive behaviors, theabusive environments, and taking
(23:59):
advantage of your child areabsolutely the same.
So, again, it comes back tosending your child.
Into an adult space where youagain, feel like you don't know
enough about it.
So again, it comes back toeducating yourself about this
circus environment.
The circus environment is sointensely under-regulated.
(24:20):
I don't care what you read outthere, I don't care if you're at
the best circus school thatthere is.
They aren't under any checks andbalances.
They make them up.
A lot of the circus schools makeup their own credentials.
They make up their own safetyguidelines.
They make up everything.
And for the folks that are gonnapush back on me getting angry,
those are the people that don'twant anyone messing with their
(24:42):
money.
Yeah.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Those are the spaces that don'twant anyone saying anything
about what they're doing in thiscircus environment with these
programs and these camps,because they don't want anything
happening to their business.
So their business and theirbottom line is going to come
first, but I want people toreally understand.
That there is not an overseer ora national governing body of
(25:02):
anything that is creating thesethings from studio to studio,
from school to school, fromprogram to program.
Anyone can go and set up a rigand help you to teach your child
aerial arts, right?
Anyone can do that in theirbackyard.
They don't have to.
(25:26):
We've been around for a longtime.
Everybody knows us.
And just to let you know, frommy experience of being in
gymnastics, that's the worstanybody can almost say to you,
yeah, everybody knows us andeverybody trusts us.
Look out.
So parents need to understand.
Adults even need to know becausethere's a lot of adults that are
in these programs that arecoming to me and they're being
abused and taking advantage of,like we were discussing Allie,
(25:48):
and they're going through thesevery popular spaces.
That are so well known, andthey're like, what do we do?
I don't wanna get blacklisted.
I don't want anyone to not hireme.
I don't want, you know, becauseit's a very small industry, even
though it's, it's, it's veryvast and it's worldwide.
Unfortunately, you will always,almost always know someone.
And there's always almostsomeone that's gonna be
(26:09):
connected to a situation thatyou go into in the performing
arts.
And I even hear parents andthings saying things like that
too, where they're using that asa way to minimize their strategy
of, of doing the right thing,which it's sad, but they're
like, well, yeah, you know,everybody knows everyone and you
know, and so you'll start toalready use excuses.
We don't want them blacklisted.
We want them to be able to dothe big shows.
(26:30):
And the hard part in the circusis that you can be cast out very
quickly.
Yeah, and shut out of being ableto work.
The other aspect of that is thatyou actually can't, because
there is so much opportunity outthere.
The circus arts is so vast andout there now that if you really
wanted to get an opportunity,you most likely probably could.
It might not be your favorite,might not be the best.
(26:52):
It might not be overly secured,but you could probably
potentially find opportunity outthere.
The other thing is that there'sjust so many different.
Aspects of the performing arts.
You know, we discussed theAcroYoga medium and those folks
getting into the acro, hobbyistmovement, and a lot of them are
now going into the circus.
Those things are, thoseenvironments are not under the
same guidelines of thecompetitive spaces, and people
(27:14):
need to watch out for that.
And I know the people that are apart of these environments,
there's a lot of good people inthese environments too, but the
ratio is definitely imbalanced.
And I don't care how many goodpeople, there was a lot of good
people in USA gymnastics thatdidn't do the right thing.
A lot of good people.
There was a lot of good peoplethat helped us all to get to the
point to where we got in termsof suffering through all these
(27:36):
like really horrific things.
And these are people that stillsay to this day that they're
good people.
They'll say that to this day.
They'll say it to your face, Iwas a good person, or I was one
of the good ones and I didn'treally believe in that.
And you hear that a lot now inthe circus world.
Well, I feel like I'm speakingout and I'm doing the right
thing.
But you oftentimes see thatpeople are willing to speak out
behind closed doors.
They're not willing to overlyput themselves out.
(27:56):
No one wants to lose access.
To working with Cirque deSoleil, and that is a problem.
And do I get a lot of flack forsaying that even though everyone
agrees with me?
Absolutely.
But you cannot have one companythat holds the keys and the
cards to everything.
Just like you can't have oneinstitution that does that
because they, it's corruptible.
All power consumed in onecentralized place is not great,
(28:20):
and it doesn't minimize howgreat the possibility and the
potential is because what is myother big advocacy effort to
make sure that.
Children from competitive sportsknow that they have a future in
the career in the arts.
That is my other counter tothat, whatever anyone's saying,
like, oh, she's just, you know,doesn't want anyone to have fun.
She doesn't want anyone to havea good time.
And she's, you know, you know,people get so upset and they get
(28:42):
so triggered and I'm like, yeah,but.
Do not see.
The other aspect of me is like Iwant everyone to have as big of
a career in the circus as I havehad, because I continue to be in
the circus and I am fortunate,and I always still say that I'm
lucky to have the path that Ihave had and past that, you
know, even friends that.
Did go to the Olympics and didso many great things and their
careers, stopped after a certaintime.
(29:04):
Maybe they didn't even gocollegiate, but then they didn't
go into the arts and some ofthem really wished that they
had.
So I feel like bringing thismentality into this environment
where I see so much of the samemediums, but I see so many of
these environments that arereaching out to government,
actually so many environmentslike ballet and different spaces
in the performing arts are alsonow finally reaching out to
(29:26):
government and saying like.
How can you help us?
They're reaching out toorganizations like Rain.
They're reaching out, tosurvivor environments and
saying, how do we create a, amore equitable and safer space
because we haven't been doing itright and we still dunno how to
get it right.
And we don't have something likea SafeSport, or we don't even
have an HR because we're acircus company and most of those
(29:47):
companies don't have hr.
Right.
And most folks think I'm in thearts, so I can't even use the
same, the, the similar channelsthat a normal employer would
use.
I can't go through the EEOC, Ican't go to like the Labor
board.
I can't file a complaint againstthis company.
It's an art company.
Like how would they take that?
How would they understand mystory?
Are there people in thesepositions that will even
(30:07):
understand the nuance of myexperience in an environment
that is so different becausethey use words like VE Verify or
they use words like circ or theyuse French words or terms that
they made up, right?
I mean, that's, that's easyenough to confuse and intimidate
somebody to not stand up forthemselves.
It's not to shame or you know,any.
Anything like that, like, youknow, where again, make an
(30:27):
entity like a Cirque Lei who Istill continue to work for.
I will say that as well, thatyeah.
You know, to this day.
But I believe that if you lovesomething that's your own
personal responsibility to holdit accountable.
You can love something and notlike it.
Yeah.
So, you know, just'cause you love doesn't mean that
you're not allowed to criticize,have judgments or say this
environment or this person orwhatever I'm involved in is not
perfect and is not doing well byme.
(30:49):
But I see that.
So much in the performing artsspaces where, people will say,
how am I gonna go to the policeabout this?
They won't even know what I'mtalking about.
I'm saying aerial tissue.
I'm saying trapeze.
They're just gonna laugh at me.
Yeah.
You know, I'm, I'm talking aboutpartnering.
And then they'll say, well, whatdo you mean he touched you?
Wasn't he supposed to hold yourhand like that?
I mean, how do you typicallyhold a hand?
Or what do you mean that feltinvasive?
(31:09):
Isn't that the technique?
Or what does that mean?
So, you know.
Mm-hmm.
This has also been a part ofmine.
Journey in speaking withgovernment and speaking with
officials like this to createthat language so that it is
normalized in these spaces.
You know, when they're like,what's a PO to do?
Like they don't know.
And so how are they gonna helpyou if they don't understand
that?
And I know that it's definitelygetting better.
(31:31):
They're definitely in manyspaces, are starting to say we
cannot have folks.
That are handling these cases asinvestigators that don't have a
history and experience in theperforming arts because they
don't understand the nuance.
Just like when I did myinvestigations with SafeSport
initially, they were horrificbecause these are folks that
didn't even know terms andgymnastics that were like basic
1 0 1.
How can you investigate anenvironment that you are so
(31:53):
green about?
You don't even know thecomplexities or the simple term
terminology that I'm using,right?
You dunno how somebody wouldeven use that terminology
against me.
So how do you not know thatthat's not abuse?
So those are the things that Isee within this performing arts
world that, you know, are sounique and so different that we,
again, takes a lot of time to beable to do this.
(32:14):
But that's the consistent workthat it's going to take to
reshape and remold theseenvironments that have been a
certain way and been so.
Static and so stuck for so longthat everyone is so against
thinking that they can ever bedifferent.
But they can, and they need tobe.
And folks need to either get inthere and be advocating about it
or boycotting them andadvocating from the outside.
(32:34):
However, however, however
Alli (32:36):
you wanna
Shanae (32:37):
do it.
Alli (32:37):
However that shows up.
I mean, yeah, that's all soimportant, like.
The language piece and knowingit's not about the right
questions, but it's knowingenough to be curious.
You know, curiosity comes withknowledge.
I can't be curious aboutsomething I don't really
understand and I can'tconceptualize and leaning into
curiosity.
(32:58):
If you don't know something, becurious and learn about it.
And if an institution is tellingyou to not be curious, or an
institution's telling you not toask questions or is telling you
that they don't have an interestin regulation.
That should make you ask a lotmore questions and, and maybe
explore other studios.
(33:18):
The plus side of it is like, Imean, I live in LA so on every
corner there's a acting studioand there's a dance studio, and
you know, there's gymnasticstudios everywhere and it's
like, it should be, if they'renot regulated or they don't have
policies, they should beaccepting of that question at
the very least.
And if they're not.
(33:39):
To me sounds like a prettyserious red flag for parents and
don't get caught up in basicallywhat you're saying is the
showmanship a little bit of I amthe only road and yeah, the
industry is small.
You hear it all the time, butyou have persevered.
You speak out and you're hereand you're doing it.
(34:02):
So yeah, it's small, but it alsoprobably has brought in.
More people standing next toyou, the more people standing
against you.
People saying, I feel this waytoo.
I've gone through this.
Or I'm scared.
I don't know what to do.
I'm glad you're talking aboutit.
You know, my guess is your lifehas expanded, not closed in
(34:24):
talking about these issues.
And I think that's our fear iswe will lose everything if we
talk about it.
And I think it's the opposite.
You gain.
So much more than your braincould ever conceptualize as
being real.
Absolutely.
I totally agree.
Yeah, I mean, I love everythingyou just said.
It was perfect.
And I guess as we kinda wrap itup a little bit, is there
(34:44):
anything, you've given amazingadvice for parents and athletes
in general, but is thereanything our listeners can do to
help with any of the policy thatyou're looking into or working
on and.
Be proactive in rebuilding thesecultures within the circus
world, within the entertainmentindustry, within gymnastics.
(35:06):
Anything that's unregulated.
I don't know, a single parentthat's probably not operating in
an unregulated space.
I mean, you put your kids intumbling at the age of like.
Zero.
I mean, right.
It's like, yes, I, and I don'tknow.
So you're, there's probably areality where you are operating
in that.
And again, it doesn't mean thatspace is dangerous, but Right.
(35:28):
Asking questions and justchecking.
And again, checking.
Shouldn't be met with like,screw you.
Right.
And if it is, get out.
I'm gonna say don't do that.
Get outta space.
But it's okay.
Ask those.
Is there anything.
You know, on this side that wecan really help and push forward
this culture of safety.
Shanae (35:49):
Yes.
Thank you so much, Allie.
I appreciate that.
I appreciate you having me onthe podcast again and for having
this incredible, beautifulspace.
You are such a gift, and I loveall the places that you go to
and all the places that we'reable to go to because these are
places that haven't been gone tobefore where these, these
conversations are somultifaceted, like what you're
(36:10):
saying.
They're so complex.
Like my life has gone in so manydirections for speaking.
Speaking on this that I neverwould've imagined and I would
not change anything, no matterhow hard it has been and how
challenging it is and howchallenging it still is going to
these spaces.
You know, it's hard going intothese spaces.
As a survivor, no one wants totalk about abuse.
(36:32):
No one wants to talk about abuseagainst children, right?
Mm-hmm.
Which is the most importantthing we could be talking about,
which is the saddest thing thatno one wants to talk about it.
So getting over that space ofbeing uncomfortable, but knowing
that it is very difficult goingto these spaces for me as well
going, but the more difficultthing is watching and hearing.
Stories of the victims and ofthings that were not held
(36:53):
properly and not done.
And seeing the damage that itdoes to a life and having to
undo that damage, it's not easygoing into spaces saying,
please, you know, legislate thecircus arts and take the arts
seriously and give us policy andwhat does that even mean?
And you know, using the languageof dc using the language of
politics, which is importantbecause it is a very political
(37:15):
space.
It is very political.
You know, I'm speaking tosenators and members of
Congress.
All the time that are on bothsides, whatever that means for
people and for me, that's itabsolutely means nothing because
you have to be able and bewilling to do that work to get
these bills and these policiespassed.
And you learn that very earlyon.
Like, wow, okay, really we'rereally just talking to
(37:37):
everybody.
Whoa, I, oh my God.
Like these are the people thathold the keys.
So in supporting me.
We have a petition.
It's the Circus Arts Guild ofAmerica.
It's on change.org, and it ispushing for circus arts
recognition in America.
We are also pushing to unionizethe circus arts industry, which
it is not.
There is no unionizedprotections for the circus arts
(37:59):
industry.
I have been a member of SAG foryears, so I know what it's like
to exist.
On set and on stage with unionsupport.
I also know the other part of mycareer that has been so prolific
to exist with zero Unionprotection with people would be
shocked to know that Cirque deSoleil is not unionized.
There are certain facets withinCirque de Soleil shows like
(38:20):
wardrobe, some in makeup, somethat are doing the rigging.
Some of them have unionprotection.
The performers that you've seenon stage and the majority of
everybody else.
No union status.
There's no, it's crazy.
It's crazy.
So in joining me and calling foralso mailing email.
You are a member of Congress andyour senator and talking to your
(38:43):
local council member andassembly members about the
circus arts and aboutregulation, about safe art, safe
circus, emailing SafeSport andsaying, we demand you create a
branch of safe art or safecircus for our children because
our children are simultaneouslycompeting.
Going to circus camps and youare not able to regulate them,
(39:03):
and we know that for a fact andnothing is being done.
I have been in contact with USAgymnastics and SafeSport about
these very same things, and Ihave continued to advocate.
I took them to the White House.
We went to the White House a fewmonths ago.
We strategized an entire meetingwith the Department of Labor.
We were hosted by the WhiteHouse to have this very complex,
multifaceted conversation aroundthe circus arts.
(39:24):
And how we can regulate and howwe can enforce some type of
policy prevention for thesespaces.
So please contact them also toadvocate for the new Safer Sport
policy that is being introducedto this legislative session
right now that's currentlyhappening.
To get that passed email again,your Congress person, and call
them about these issues and say,we actually know that there's
(39:46):
solutions out there, but youdon't have to say, I just want
something to happen.
Say I'm for the unionization ofthe circus arts industry.
I'm for policy in the form ofsafe arts, safe circus, a branch
of safe sport for the performingarts that would be legislated
and have policy and talk tofolks on all of those levels
because it can be done at thelocal level, at the state level,
(40:07):
and then it can go to the higherups on the federal level.
It can just happen first inNevada and Las Vegas.
It can just happen first.
California get and call yourrepresentative to have them
sponsor a bill because we aretrying to have circus arts
recognition in America by theNational Endowment for the Arts,
which would change a lot of theaccessibility of the arts and
(40:28):
funding.
But accessibility is.
Sometimes more important at thispoint than the funding of the
arts.
I hope people really understandthat because every single time
we speak about the arts, italways comes back to just
funding and not that fundingdoesn't allow you to do all
these programs.
Yeah.
But there is alert, a certainlevel of accessibility you don't
have, even if you have thefunding right.
There's certain, there's certaindoors you can't get through.
(40:50):
So.
I've discussed this before, mythree-prong approach and having
policy, you know, we're lookingfor maybe even a circus workers
act.
You know, please say that whenyou call them.
Leave a voicemail.
Send an email.
If you're a part of a circusstudio or a gymnastics gym, this
is time for you to startthinking about those things now,
not, not in the future, and notthinking that you're not a part
(41:12):
of those things.
The people that are in thoseshows that you love to see all
the time in Las Vegas are fromgymnastics, right?
They're, they're, they're fromyour local gym.
They're on your screen competingright now.
Yeah.
So you are advocating for them,even if you might not realize it
when you understand who's behinda lot of the, the, the face
paint, the makeup and the wigs.
(41:32):
Right, right.
You know, it's, it's all of us.
It's people like me that youjust never recognize are up
there, you know?
'cause I, I've, I'm blue, youknow, blue on stage.
I'm a butterfly, I'm whatever.
Right?
Yeah.
You know, I, I'm, I'm, any oneof those things you just, you
just don't recognize, but youare advocating.
For me, there was recently afashion workers act that was
just signed into law in NewYork, and that has changed the
(41:55):
game for the rights that theyhad within the fashion industry.
And it's wild.
People thought that there was,there would never be the
possibility to legislate thefashion world.
I mean, the fashion industry,again, so corrupt, so
unforgiving, so abusive.
So not by the book.
I mean a lot of it istrafficking in the fashion
industry and circus is very,very similar in that way.
(42:18):
Not to continue to knock this,but the medium is so amazing,
right?
And so beautiful and sointeresting and so innovative
and so historic.
That's why we need to do thingsfrom different angles.
So reminding you that we do havea petition on change.org and you
can contact us through there,the Circus Arts Guild of America
in supporting our efforts andyou know, starting to speak out
and say.
(42:38):
The circus arts industrydeserves union rights.
Specifically, we deserve policy,a Circus Rights Act, a Circus
Workers Act, and then again, theaddition to SafeSport and
contacting them directly becauseit does work.
I mean, we've seen people forsure get tweeted down on x and.
Policy changes or companieschange, right?
(42:59):
Like that matters when thesesenators and members of
Congress, because we're inmeetings with them all the time.
If they're getting a lot ofmessages about something, they
will change it if they'regetting hundreds, thousands of
calls.
That's the feedback we get whenwe're in meetings, whether it's
about, you know, protectingsurvivors and pushing a
important bill in thatparticular way, or if it's
pushing something within thearts.
(43:20):
But if they are not hearingabout it, if it's not in their
awareness, it's very challengingfor us to continue to do the.
Work without having folks thatare either connected to the
industry or outside of theindustry or don't feel, you
know, like they have a directvoice to it.
But you do, you know, yeah.
It's, it shouldn't matterbecause you know someone,
someone of someone is going tobe affected by these industries
that I'm talking to you about.
(43:41):
Someone that you know has achild or is doing something as a
hobby.
Any of those things is going,any of those types of
involvements in these spaces isgoing to be affected by your
actions in the form of policyand doing grassroots.
You know, efforts on the ground.
You can find me on social media.
Shana, S-H-E-N-E-A.
I go by Shenae Stiletto and I'mputting it out there just so
(44:03):
that folks can find me andfollow me in that way, and
follow the work and sign thepetitions and show up to the
meetings that we have.
We do town halls, we do virtualmeetups, and then so much of our
work is behind the scenes.
If there's anything that youwanna offer us pro bono, we're
always looking for policydrafters for folks that are
already connected to government,that can continue to advocate
for us, we come to dc.
(44:23):
If you wanna meet us in DC, wewill come to meet you in DC like
we literally.
And I mostly go literally allover to conventions and
conferences and anything thatwill have me in discussing these
very important and crucialchanges that I believe that can
happen.
We just need to get the propersupport for them and to get them
passed through in some way.
So thank you again, Allie, forhaving me.
Alli (44:42):
Yeah, of course.
And we'll post links to allthose things and I mean, you are
amazing the work that you'redoing and I think to love to
care about something as much asyou do is to truly love it.
Right.
We don't.
We don't want something tochange that we don't care about.
And you care a lot about thisindustry and the multifaceted
(45:03):
approaches and access to it, andI think we all can.
I personally love anytimesomeone loves something, I wanna
get behind it and support itbecause.
It's just what life is.
And so I hope all of ourlisteners will help in this
cause because at the root of itis just deep love and deep care
and giving you and otherperformers the tools to do it
(45:25):
safely, effectively, andappreciated.
Right?
We all need to be appreciatedtoo, and that's important.
And knowing that.
You have rights and you cannegotiate and you can make your
life better.
Not based off of theinterpretation of some survey,
but off of the real lifeexperience.
And that voice is heard is huge.
(45:47):
So please everyone use yourvoices and get involved on this
because it is wonderful and soimportant and on many levels.
So Shana, thank you for beinghere.
It has meant a lot to me andthis has been such a lovely
conversation.
Shanae (46:00):
Thank so much, ally.
I'm so honored by all the workthat you do, and thank you so
much for having me on theBreaking Silence podcast.
Of course,
Alli (46:06):
yes.
Thanks everybody.
We'll see you next time.
Safety.
Welcome back to the PodcastBreakers.
I just wanted to send a friendlyreminder that this is part two
of our interview with Shanae.
I hope that you really enjoy thefirst part of her story as she
talked us through how we cankeep our kids safer, whether
that's in sports circusentertainment, doing films and
movies or plays, whatever ourkids might be interested in
(00:22):
doing, we all can be activeparticipants in making sure that
they stay safe.
In the second part, we're gonnago a little bit deeper into her
story and the experience thatshe had with us gymnastics, and
the ways that silence was reallypervasive throughout her
experience.
Even in places where we thinkthat things are being taken care
of when we wanna manipulatepower, usually the first step in
(00:45):
that is by silence.
Having that awareness, knowingwhat to look for, continuing to
ask questions of theinstitutions that we interact
with is so important to makingsure that we stay safe and our
kids stay safe.
She goes much deeper into that,and I really hope that you will
listen to this part of her storyand continue to engage with us
(01:06):
online in the notes, in thechats on social media, and
engage with Shanae on her socialmedia.
All of those wonderful things,and of course, keep yourself
safe.
Take your time, do what you needto do, and if you need to take
this episode in parts, please dothat.
We hope you enjoy this nextepisode of the Breaking Silence
(01:28):
Podcast.
Shanae (01:39):
You will come into spaces now where folks can
pretty much get away and dowhatever they want.
And I know that's kind ofterrifying for parents to hear.
Yeah.
Especially when they feel likethese environments are getting
so much better.
But now we have.
Something else to worry about.
And so, you know what my work isat this point is getting, an
extension of SafeSport that issafe art or safe circus, where
(02:00):
it would be a branch of the USCenter for SafeSport.
And so you wouldn't feel likethere's nowhere you can go if
you're in a circus program, in acircus school or in a performing
arts space and you think, wow,there's maybe some not great
behavior going on here.
There's maybe abuse happening.
Where do we go?
Directly to the police.
Where do we go?
(02:20):
Because the police cannot alwayshelp you or be the answer to all
of your issues and all of yourproblems when you are in spaces
where there is abuse that'shappening.
You know?
That's why again, the US Centerfor SafeSport is so important
because it teaches you the laws,it teaches you what are your
legal rights.
Any situation.
And then also too, what's thelegal responsibility for the
(02:41):
national governing bodies?
And I hope now that they willhave the right to go in and say,
what are the legal rights tothis dance space?
Right?
To this dance studio, to thiscircus school, to this theater
club, which again, folks think.
There are these systems ofguidelines and things like that,
but there's not, and the morethat I got into my environment
(03:02):
with circus and in being in thecircus environment and being in
these different programs, themore I saw that there was a need
for just as much legislation andpolicy as the environments that
I came out of and have beenadvocating around for so many
years now, and seeing just howimportant it is that I think, to
me is the only way.
To change these environmentswith a combination, obviously,
(03:24):
of advocates and of boots on theground.
You know, that is obviouslyincredibly important, but there
needs to be, I think, like athree-pronged approach to these
environments in terms ofregulating them properly because
the abuse is so cunning and somanipulative, and is so smart
the way that they will navigatearound anything that's been put
(03:45):
in place.
And how abusers operate, theywill find a way.
And so that's why it's importantto keep these environments
evolving.
You know, nothing is set instone, whether it be policy or
any kind of rules or any kindof.
Bring a bit of actions becausefrom my experiences, they just
keep on getting more and moreevasive trying to outsmart
(04:08):
things that folks feel have beenput in place and who could get
around that.
But we've seen it's definitelypossible.
Alli (04:14):
Yeah.
And I, I think when you thinkabout how long abuse tends, you
know, here, gymnastics is a goodexample of abuse was taking
place for.
Decades of multiple people, butthere wasn't roads.
And it's hard to be a parent.
It's hard to be a kid that'sexperiencing abuse and to not
(04:38):
know where to go, what is mypoint of contact, to tell
someone what is going on and tokind of release myself from
having to know what to do,having to have the answers.
Even I think as kids, you know,I'm a, I'm a survivor as well,
of childhood abuse, and I wasable to report my abuse because
(05:01):
I learned in school what amandatory reporter was.
And I only learned that throughhelping a friend who was
suicidal.
But having, it was a, it becamea road.
I understood for the first timethat if I told an adult.
At the school, what was goingon.
They would have the answers andit was the solution.
(05:23):
But without that information, itfeels like there are no
solutions.
It feels like there is no pathto carry forward.
And what SafeSport is doing,what you're talking about
creating is that road.
Is it perfect?
No.
Are there problems within it?
Of course.
But we can amend something thatexists.
(05:43):
We can't amend something thatdoesn't.
So in your process, how, how didyou, and where did you end up
going in reporting and how didyou find that road?
And obviously it's so, it's sopassionate of yours because you
can tell, like you don't wantsomeone to have to find the
road.
You want the road to just bethere.
(06:05):
You need it.
It's accessible.
And again, we can change it.
We can make it better once it'sthere.
But that's so much harder to do.
How did you build that road foryourself?
Shanae (06:14):
Well, you know, ally, for me, in my experience, my
road was, you know, it was avery sad road.
And that's why Yeah.
I think, you know, advocating,you know, so hard, you know,
it's been, it's been a decadenow because there was no road.
And so even, you know, in myexperience there were children
that were.
That we're telling adults.
(06:34):
Yeah.
That we're telling the mandatoryreporters we are being abused.
Like these horrible things arehappening to us.
Help us.
Yeah.
We had mandatory reporterssaying, oh God, you know, not
helping us hiding it, hiding theabuse and experiencing that
because I always like folks toknow about what my experience
was like and seeing.
(06:54):
Adults in the room not do theright thing, knowing that there
were certain roads that theyrefused to take.
Mm-hmm.
And that they were doing this tochildren.
However, again, like I said,there was not the network that
there is now, there wasn't thethreat because everything was
being done in house essentially,right.
Where they were saying, we canpolice ourselves.
Like all of these biginstitutions you see nowadays
(07:15):
that are like, ugh.
We don't need to go in front ofCongress.
We can handle everything on ourown.
Just give us more money.
Yeah, give us more money andmore subsidies, and then we will
handle everything and then we'llput out a report that's
generated by us and let you knowhow well we're doing.
Right?
Like that's essentially, youknow what USA gymnastics was
doing?
They had all the files.
I mean, they had my file.
(07:35):
My file was a part of one of thebig stories that came out.
They had my file just hidden inthe back because my coach had
been reported for so many years.
Mm-hmm.
And so this was a 20 year arc offolks coming, reporting and
being intimidated, losing theirpositions by reporting him
parents saying.
We don't actually wanna go tothe police over this.
(07:55):
We'd rather just take our kidout and move on with our lives.
And so we know when the policecame to my door when I was an
adult, I was very much an adultat that point, and I had been
living with this for so manyyears and had just told one or
two close people to me.
Still at that point was sobrainwashed into not revealing
all of these horrific, you know,things that had happened to me.
(08:18):
And the police had to come to mebecause my coach was using his
son's Facebook account to preyon little girls in the gym.
And when they came to me.
With the evidence and with theother victims.
And, you know, that was my timeand my decision to be the adult
that I finally understood that Iwas.
And that's a, that's a journeyof a survivor when you realize I
(08:40):
am no longer a child.
I now have the power of theadult that had that power those
many years ago.
That, you know, children werecoming to, and yet this person
still was coaching.
They were still traveling.
Nothing happened to them.
They were reported so manytimes.
People that were consideredpresidents of organizations knew
directly about these people anddid nothing.
They chose to save face.
(09:02):
And to pay people off and tokind of throw children under the
bus.
And you know, I love that youalways come back to this alley
of, these are children.
We were children.
And I think sometimes it'sdifficult when we're retelling
our stories sometimes becausewe're always retelling our
stories as adults, right?
Because like you said, reportingusually comes 10 plus years.
That is, that is completelynormal.
(09:23):
And even folks now you know thatare saying, well, you know, what
are the numbers?
And I always tell them.
The numbers are never where theyreally are right now.
Mm-hmm.
The numbers are always coming 10years down the line.
So whatever, you know, stock ofkids that you have right now,
just know that there is a highpercentage of them that may say
nothing for 10 years and that Ihope will continue to change
(09:46):
with the education within theseenvironments, you know, with
organizations.
Breaking the islands with thework of rain that they're doing
so powerfully with the work ofthe US Center for SafeSport and
having boots on the ground andinserted even more into, you
know, into these environments.
So for me, it was goingundercover with the police,
getting a recorded confession.
It was one of the scariestexperiences of my life doing
(10:09):
that.
And speaking to my abuser,David, Rick.
All those years later andgetting this recorded confession
from him, you know, goingthrough those, the trials and
the criminal cases, and then,you know, a seven year long
settlement that we, you know,just finalized against USA
gymnastics and U-S-O-P-C andtestifying, you know, testifying
through Zoom, over the pandemic,all of these things, and
(10:31):
learning all of these skillsthat I wish that I'd never
known.
Hmm.
However, I feel like when youare thrust into living these
experiences, bit by bit, youlearn something that almost
can't be taught.
'cause the amount of informationand knowledge and experiences
that I have now and reflectingand advocating for policy and
going to dc which I do often,several times a year, to
advocate in front along withother survivors and hearing
(10:54):
their stories and hearing thedifferent nuances of their
stories and their experiences.
That is what set me up to be theadvocate that I am now and to
say, when I speak to parents,have you gone to the police?
Have you gone to the center forSafeSport or have you contacted
an organization with rain?
If you have not done any ofthose things, we need to talk
(11:14):
and why?
Yeah.
'cause to me that is athree-prong approach that I'm
talking about.
If you have not gone to thepolice, if you have not gone to
the US Center for SafeSport, andif you have not sought out a
huge, or even a smallorganization that.
Educate and provides resources,which they are there.
I would like to know why in thisday and age in 2025, you have
decided to not do that.
(11:35):
If you are witnessing harm, ifyou suspect harm, or if you are
seeking to educate yourself, toprotect your child.
And then also too, do you knowabout the policies that are in
place right now that are gonnahold those spaces accountable?
Because that is very importantand I often hear.
A lot of, you know, folks in theenvironments are not just
talking about parents.
(11:56):
Most people don't know any ofthe legislation.
They don't know what thelegislation was for, what it
means that, you know, theseinstitutions are legally now
obligated to do.
Because just because they'relegally obligated doesn't mean
that they do them.
Mm-hmm.
And we've seen that with agymnastics and the US Center for
SafeSport, where they have said,we're just so overwhelmed with
so many cases, we can't abide bythe law.
(12:18):
Literally, so by the.
Educating ourselves as muchabout this as we are about your
child's bar routine and theirscore, the they mean is gonna be
of the utmost importance.
Because if you can tell me whatyour kid needs to get to get the
(12:40):
nationals, but you can't tell meabout any of the policies that
are in place, that these peoplemight be breaking in your face
to get away with something, thenthat is a really big problem for
me.
And I don't think that you havethe opportunity to say
carelessly now that you justdon't know and you're not
educated.
That at this point is a choice,and it's one for me that it
comes at too high of a cost withthe destruction and the
(13:02):
disgusting behavior.
I have seen perpetrated againstchildren in youth sports and as
adults, and also too in thecircus and the performing arts
environments that are getting.
More and more out there andpeople are starting to share and
come forward more.
But it's very similar to, youknow, first gymnastics, we don't
need any of that, or thisenvironment is never gonna need
that, or this environment isnever gonna change.
(13:23):
We could never legislate thisenvironment.
We could never change thesethings.
It's always gonna be the wayit's always been.
And I heard that my entirechildhood.
Even throughout the process ofus coming forward with our
stories, people were, weretelling us.
It doesn't matter if you guyscame forward.
Nothing is ever going to happen.
No one's ever going to undo thisenvironment the way that it is.
(13:44):
And you know, there's still alot to do.
There's still a lot of people Ido not believe should be in
these environments, whether it'sin USA gymnastics or at the US
Center for SafeSport or in theperforming arts world.
These people still have got togo.
That's the difficult part.
And seeing the great changesthat have been made, the great
gains, you can't say that therehasn't just been amazing gains
(14:05):
over the last seven years, butthe fact that there are still
other things that have notchanged is very disconcerting
and it's very hard to see, andit's very hard to still interact
in environments with people thatI know are.
Or have been part of the problemfor a very long time, let alone
the people that should have goneto prison and gone to jail and
never did.
And so I hope that we continueto create these environments
(14:26):
where it's not the exception,it's the rule that folks are
held accountable, lawfully.
They're not just given a slap onthe wrist and they're not just
moved to somewhere else.
That they are legally andlawfully held accountable in a
way that we haven't seen in thepast.
And I know that that is probablyone of the only ways.
To make this environment, theenvironment that it's supposed
to be, whether it's in youthsports or it's sending your
(14:47):
child in the performing arts,which at this point is more
along the lines of what aboutlike 90% of parents are going to
do from what I see?
Alli (14:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think exactly you're,there has to be checks and
balances, and there has to bemany ways towards change, right?
Like this is a complex systemthat has been built for a very
long time, and when you'rechanging a complex system, it's.
A lot of different approachesfor things to come together and
(15:16):
work just like building it inthe first place is that building
a new structure is gonna besimilar and so learn it.
I think what you said about likeknowing someone's routine, I
coach soccer and I swear likefiguring out what leagues and
levels of soccer, it's likeresearching the constitution.
It is so layered and complex andif.
(15:40):
Parents can do that.
If coaches can do that, we alsomm-hmm.
Can learn and understand therequirements that SafeSport
holds us to as coaches andmm-hmm.
What we need to do in order tobe on the field and for parents
to know that and deeply knowthat, and to ask us questions
and we should have answers tothem.
(16:01):
And if we don't, we need to be.
Taught them or held accountablefor the reasons we don't.
You know, I think it's such agood point that if you are gonna
have your kid in competitivesport knowing their rights, just
like you know, their level ofplay or their routine, or if
they're the lead of this playand how many hours they spent
(16:22):
practicing their lines, do youalso know how is the director
setting up the culture?
What does that look like forthem?
Is this space.
Friendly and creative.
Or dictorial and unkind and why.
Right.
And that is okay.
And asking questions always is abig deal.
But it's that and piece I thinktoo of what you're saying.
(16:45):
And then the performing arts andthe circus industry sounds like
as well, these checks andbalances just don't really
exist.
It's only one.
And that should be a red flag,right?
If it's this one union.
This one group is giving us allthe stats.
We should always question it.
Also, to your point, stats arekind of be us, and at the end of
(17:09):
the day, we know abuse ishappening.
So whether that's to 50% or 1%,I don't care.
I don't think we should care.
It should be.
Abuse is happening, so we needto prevent it.
The big numbers to me sometimesfreeze people and I think
breaking that down and beinglike, does it really matter if a
kid's getting harmed, a kid'sgetting harmed?
Right?
So let's have checks andbalances there.
(17:31):
And for you being anentertainer, what do you feel
like besides having safeentertainment, having these
other agencies, what are waysthat parents can help?
Build this culture a littledifferently in the art space
because I think it does havethat gymnastics feel of I'm
gonna make your kid a star.
(17:52):
I'm gonna take them at a veryyoung age and they're gonna make
a lot of money.
You know, I think that might bea little bit different from
gymnastics.
I'm not sure if you made moneyperforming, but kids
entertainment do make money andwe protect their finances, but
do we protect.
As entities, so kind of how doyou see that playing out?
(18:15):
You live and breathe it.
I mean, in the entertainmentworld and also at adult levels,
right?
Adults are being harmed, adultsare being abused and assaulted
as well.
Not, this isn't just kids incircus and entertainment.
So can you hit that a little bitdeeper?
Shanae (18:30):
Yes.
That's so great.
All of that feedback, Allie, andthe questions about, I love that
you're saying that it's not justthe children that are going into
these entertainment spaces.
It is adults.
I mean, I've.
I've been abused as an adult inthe circus industry, and I'm
even someone that feels like Iam educated, and that's been my
journey as a survivor of cominginto spaces and the same
(18:54):
patterns are playing out becauseyou're always going to be
working through those patterns.
You're.
Always gonna be working throughthose symptoms of abuse.
And especially if you go into anenvironment that is so similar,
it's a lot of the same peoplethat cross over from your
sporting world into theperforming arts world.
It, it really is.
Many times the people that yousend your kids to those camps
(19:15):
are the same people.
That'll be the judge.
And so you think you can dance?
Mm-hmm.
They've been going to conferences with them as little
dancers for like 10, 15 years,and then suddenly those are the
people that are gonna hire themto go on Beyonce's tour or be
their choreographer.
Does your child know theirrights?
Because they're gonna be aroundvery similar mindsets.
(19:35):
They're not gonna just usuallybe thrust more or less into
these environments that are.
So, so, so outrageouslydifferent.
They might end up performingwith a teammate.
Mm-hmm.
So it's like, oh, one of myteammates is there, or actually
one of my old coaches is now acoach of Cirque de Sole.
How about that?
Mm-hmm.
Or the scouts.
The scouts from a bigentertainment company, or an
agent used to be a judge incompetition.
(19:58):
Now they're a scout.
Now they're an agent.
Now they're a manager, nowthey're a casting director.
It's understanding all of thesecrossovers before you allow your
child to go into theseenvironments and educating them.
Now that education starts now,especially within the performing
arts world and, and, andadapting their competitive
(20:20):
careers into these spaces,because I would say at least,
maybe even now, it's like, Idon't know the percentage, but
maybe like 50% of nationalgoverning bodies of.
Board are go, are going into theperforming arts, whether it's
break dance, you know, it'scrazy.
I mean, you have so many and,and sports that people don't
even think about.
You know, even if it's karate orTaeKwonDo, these are all sports
that are going into theperforming arts world.
(20:41):
So, you know, not thinking like,or if it's cheer or if it's
stunt, they're all being broughtinto Cirque de SLE in these
spaces.
For me, you know, I see a lot ofparents wanting their children
to go viral.
I have such a big issue withthat.
I, you know, I've beenadvocating for so many bills to
hold Facebook and, and spacesaccountable for allowing
(21:03):
materials of children to beprofiteer on, on online.
But I also, again, wanna bringthis back because we're holding,
we're trying to hold themaccountable.
Right.
But what is the other part ofthat?
Of wanting to hold yourselfaccountable.
For example, wanting your childto go viral online.
Is it the best thing?
I know it's about monetizing.
I know it's about letting themget their start when they're
(21:23):
young.
And I did actually make money asa child performer when I was a
little kid.
And we're seeing this also tooin circus where the parents are
allowing their kids to go andthey're like, but they're gonna
make money.
They're gonna go on, they'regonna union protected.
They're coach.
To now drive their child to goto a GT or to go to the little
(21:47):
job that they have and make alittle bit of money, which
they're usually not paying themproperly.
They're usually allowing them toperform in spaces that are very
adult and at the same token.
For going to a gymnasticscompetition or going to any
sporting competition.
They're like, oh, no, no, no.
There's guidelines around that.
We can't possibly let them dothat, but you just let them go
(22:08):
and get driven to do an a taudition without you.
Right?
Oh, that's fun.
That's a part of their career.
And we're gonna use this moneyfor competition and we're gonna
save it.
And then they're gonna use that,and then they can go to college
and then it's gonna be in theirfund.
All of these things that they'retelling them, oh, they have this
new, so, you know, I have a lotof feelings and judgements
around allowing your child to beon social media, even if you're
(22:29):
the one controlling it.
Because this already sets thetone for what they feel is
accessible for them and for theway they're going to see
themselves.
You know, you don't know howanybody might access them in the
future from what you started forthem, of when they're younger
and is that gonna be dangerousto them?
You know, somewhere down theline.
Again, this mentality, thementality and the brainwashing
(22:51):
and the cultish like behavioraround the entertainments and
the arts of thinking that oneday my child will make it and be
famous.
And it really comes down tothat.
So powerfully Ali, I don't thinkthat I can underscore that
enough because I see the parentsgoing so hard for that so much,
and even the ones that don'tthink that they're blinded by
the possibility, of having thosewords fall off their tongue of
(23:15):
what your child is doing.
I mean, I'm sure we see it evennow with NIL.
I mean that was not something,right, just even a few years ago
with children having access tonow.
That's all I hear when I come tospaces we wanna do in n viral.
And everyone loves it, and howdo we make sure that happens and
they're on scholarship, allthose things.
It's a sickness.
And that's the new, that's thenew patterning.
(23:37):
Everybody thinks like it'ssupposed to look like it did in
the past.
No.
Now there's just new buzzwords.
Like now there's just new wordsto hijack your childhood or
hijack your child's protectionsand safety.
And they're just gonna usedifferent words than what we
used just, 3, 4, 5, 10, 15 yearsago.
But the abusive behaviors, theabusive environments, and taking
(23:59):
advantage of your child areabsolutely the same.
So, again, it comes back tosending your child.
Into an adult space where youagain, feel like you don't know
enough about it.
So again, it comes back toeducating yourself about this
circus environment.
The circus environment is sointensely under-regulated.
(24:20):
I don't care what you read outthere, I don't care if you're at
the best circus school thatthere is.
They aren't under any checks andbalances.
They make them up.
A lot of the circus schools makeup their own credentials.
They make up their own safetyguidelines.
They make up everything.
And for the folks that are gonnapush back on me getting angry,
those are the people that don'twant anyone messing with their
(24:42):
money.
Yeah.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Those are the spaces that don'twant anyone saying anything
about what they're doing in thiscircus environment with these
programs and these camps,because they don't want anything
happening to their business.
So their business and theirbottom line is going to come
first, but I want people toreally understand.
That there is not an overseer ora national governing body of
(25:02):
anything that is creating thesethings from studio to studio,
from school to school, fromprogram to program.
Anyone can go and set up a rigand help you to teach your child
aerial arts, right?
Anyone can do that in theirbackyard.
They don't have to.
(25:26):
We've been around for a longtime.
Everybody knows us.
And just to let you know, frommy experience of being in
gymnastics, that's the worstanybody can almost say to you,
yeah, everybody knows us andeverybody trusts us.
Look out.
So parents need to understand.
Adults even need to know becausethere's a lot of adults that are
in these programs that arecoming to me and they're being
abused and taking advantage of,like we were discussing Allie,
(25:48):
and they're going through thesevery popular spaces.
That are so well known, andthey're like, what do we do?
I don't wanna get blacklisted.
I don't want anyone to not hireme.
I don't want, you know, becauseit's a very small industry, even
though it's, it's, it's veryvast and it's worldwide.
Unfortunately, you will always,almost always know someone.
And there's always almostsomeone that's gonna be
(26:09):
connected to a situation thatyou go into in the performing
arts.
And I even hear parents andthings saying things like that
too, where they're using that asa way to minimize their strategy
of, of doing the right thing,which it's sad, but they're
like, well, yeah, you know,everybody knows everyone and you
know, and so you'll start toalready use excuses.
We don't want them blacklisted.
We want them to be able to dothe big shows.
(26:30):
And the hard part in the circusis that you can be cast out very
quickly.
Yeah, and shut out of being ableto work.
The other aspect of that is thatyou actually can't, because
there is so much opportunity outthere.
The circus arts is so vast andout there now that if you really
wanted to get an opportunity,you most likely probably could.
It might not be your favorite,might not be the best.
(26:52):
It might not be overly secured,but you could probably
potentially find opportunity outthere.
The other thing is that there'sjust so many different.
Aspects of the performing arts.
You know, we discussed theAcroYoga medium and those folks
getting into the acro, hobbyistmovement, and a lot of them are
now going into the circus.
Those things are, thoseenvironments are not under the
same guidelines of thecompetitive spaces, and people
(27:14):
need to watch out for that.
And I know the people that are apart of these environments,
there's a lot of good people inthese environments too, but the
ratio is definitely imbalanced.
And I don't care how many goodpeople, there was a lot of good
people in USA gymnastics thatdidn't do the right thing.
A lot of good people.
There was a lot of good peoplethat helped us all to get to the
point to where we got in termsof suffering through all these
(27:36):
like really horrific things.
And these are people that stillsay to this day that they're
good people.
They'll say that to this day.
They'll say it to your face, Iwas a good person, or I was one
of the good ones and I didn'treally believe in that.
And you hear that a lot now inthe circus world.
Well, I feel like I'm speakingout and I'm doing the right
thing.
But you oftentimes see thatpeople are willing to speak out
behind closed doors.
They're not willing to overlyput themselves out.
(27:56):
No one wants to lose access.
To working with Cirque deSoleil, and that is a problem.
And do I get a lot of flack forsaying that even though everyone
agrees with me?
Absolutely.
But you cannot have one companythat holds the keys and the
cards to everything.
Just like you can't have oneinstitution that does that
because they, it's corruptible.
All power consumed in onecentralized place is not great,
(28:20):
and it doesn't minimize howgreat the possibility and the
potential is because what is myother big advocacy effort to
make sure that.
Children from competitive sportsknow that they have a future in
the career in the arts.
That is my other counter tothat, whatever anyone's saying,
like, oh, she's just, you know,doesn't want anyone to have fun.
She doesn't want anyone to havea good time.
And she's, you know, you know,people get so upset and they get
(28:42):
so triggered and I'm like, yeah,but.
Do not see.
The other aspect of me is like Iwant everyone to have as big of
a career in the circus as I havehad, because I continue to be in
the circus and I am fortunate,and I always still say that I'm
lucky to have the path that Ihave had and past that, you
know, even friends that.
Did go to the Olympics and didso many great things and their
careers, stopped after a certaintime.
(29:04):
Maybe they didn't even gocollegiate, but then they didn't
go into the arts and some ofthem really wished that they
had.
So I feel like bringing thismentality into this environment
where I see so much of the samemediums, but I see so many of
these environments that arereaching out to government,
actually so many environmentslike ballet and different spaces
in the performing arts are alsonow finally reaching out to
(29:26):
government and saying like.
How can you help us?
They're reaching out toorganizations like Rain.
They're reaching out, tosurvivor environments and
saying, how do we create a, amore equitable and safer space
because we haven't been doing itright and we still dunno how to
get it right.
And we don't have something likea SafeSport, or we don't even
have an HR because we're acircus company and most of those
(29:47):
companies don't have hr.
Right.
And most folks think I'm in thearts, so I can't even use the
same, the, the similar channelsthat a normal employer would
use.
I can't go through the EEOC, Ican't go to like the Labor
board.
I can't file a complaint againstthis company.
It's an art company.
Like how would they take that?
How would they understand mystory?
Are there people in thesepositions that will even
(30:07):
understand the nuance of myexperience in an environment
that is so different becausethey use words like VE Verify or
they use words like circ or theyuse French words or terms that
they made up, right?
I mean, that's, that's easyenough to confuse and intimidate
somebody to not stand up forthemselves.
It's not to shame or you know,any.
Anything like that, like, youknow, where again, make an
(30:27):
entity like a Cirque Lei who Istill continue to work for.
I will say that as well, thatyeah.
You know, to this day.
But I believe that if you lovesomething that's your own
personal responsibility to holdit accountable.
You can love something and notlike it.
Yeah.
So, you know, just'cause you love doesn't mean that
you're not allowed to criticize,have judgments or say this
environment or this person orwhatever I'm involved in is not
perfect and is not doing well byme.
(30:49):
But I see that.
So much in the performing artsspaces where, people will say,
how am I gonna go to the policeabout this?
They won't even know what I'mtalking about.
I'm saying aerial tissue.
I'm saying trapeze.
They're just gonna laugh at me.
Yeah.
You know, I'm, I'm talking aboutpartnering.
And then they'll say, well, whatdo you mean he touched you?
Wasn't he supposed to hold yourhand like that?
I mean, how do you typicallyhold a hand?
Or what do you mean that feltinvasive?
(31:09):
Isn't that the technique?
Or what does that mean?
So, you know.
Mm-hmm.
This has also been a part ofmine.
Journey in speaking withgovernment and speaking with
officials like this to createthat language so that it is
normalized in these spaces.
You know, when they're like,what's a PO to do?
Like they don't know.
And so how are they gonna helpyou if they don't understand
that?
And I know that it's definitelygetting better.
(31:31):
They're definitely in manyspaces, are starting to say we
cannot have folks.
That are handling these cases asinvestigators that don't have a
history and experience in theperforming arts because they
don't understand the nuance.
Just like when I did myinvestigations with SafeSport
initially, they were horrificbecause these are folks that
didn't even know terms andgymnastics that were like basic
1 0 1.
How can you investigate anenvironment that you are so
(31:53):
green about?
You don't even know thecomplexities or the simple term
terminology that I'm using,right?
You dunno how somebody wouldeven use that terminology
against me.
So how do you not know thatthat's not abuse?
So those are the things that Isee within this performing arts
world that, you know, are sounique and so different that we,
again, takes a lot of time to beable to do this.
(32:14):
But that's the consistent workthat it's going to take to
reshape and remold theseenvironments that have been a
certain way and been so.
Static and so stuck for so longthat everyone is so against
thinking that they can ever bedifferent.
But they can, and they need tobe.
And folks need to either get inthere and be advocating about it
or boycotting them andadvocating from the outside.
(32:34):
However, however, however
Alli (32:36):
you wanna
Shanae (32:37):
do it.
Alli (32:37):
However that shows up.
I mean, yeah, that's all soimportant, like.
The language piece and knowingit's not about the right
questions, but it's knowingenough to be curious.
You know, curiosity comes withknowledge.
I can't be curious aboutsomething I don't really
understand and I can'tconceptualize and leaning into
curiosity.
(32:58):
If you don't know something, becurious and learn about it.
And if an institution is tellingyou to not be curious, or an
institution's telling you not toask questions or is telling you
that they don't have an interestin regulation.
That should make you ask a lotmore questions and, and maybe
explore other studios.
(33:18):
The plus side of it is like, Imean, I live in LA so on every
corner there's a acting studioand there's a dance studio, and
you know, there's gymnasticstudios everywhere and it's
like, it should be, if they'renot regulated or they don't have
policies, they should beaccepting of that question at
the very least.
And if they're not.
(33:39):
To me sounds like a prettyserious red flag for parents and
don't get caught up in basicallywhat you're saying is the
showmanship a little bit of I amthe only road and yeah, the
industry is small.
You hear it all the time, butyou have persevered.
You speak out and you're hereand you're doing it.
(34:02):
So yeah, it's small, but it alsoprobably has brought in.
More people standing next toyou, the more people standing
against you.
People saying, I feel this waytoo.
I've gone through this.
Or I'm scared.
I don't know what to do.
I'm glad you're talking aboutit.
You know, my guess is your lifehas expanded, not closed in
(34:24):
talking about these issues.
And I think that's our fear iswe will lose everything if we
talk about it.
And I think it's the opposite.
You gain.
So much more than your braincould ever conceptualize as
being real.
Absolutely.
I totally agree.
Yeah, I mean, I love everythingyou just said.
It was perfect.
And I guess as we kinda wrap itup a little bit, is there
(34:44):
anything, you've given amazingadvice for parents and athletes
in general, but is thereanything our listeners can do to
help with any of the policy thatyou're looking into or working
on and.
Be proactive in rebuilding thesecultures within the circus
world, within the entertainmentindustry, within gymnastics.
(35:06):
Anything that's unregulated.
I don't know, a single parentthat's probably not operating in
an unregulated space.
I mean, you put your kids intumbling at the age of like.
Zero.
I mean, right.
It's like, yes, I, and I don'tknow.
So you're, there's probably areality where you are operating
in that.
And again, it doesn't mean thatspace is dangerous, but Right.
(35:28):
Asking questions and justchecking.
And again, checking.
Shouldn't be met with like,screw you.
Right.
And if it is, get out.
I'm gonna say don't do that.
Get outta space.
But it's okay.
Ask those.
Is there anything.
You know, on this side that wecan really help and push forward
this culture of safety.
Shanae (35:49):
Yes.
Thank you so much, Allie.
I appreciate that.
I appreciate you having me onthe podcast again and for having
this incredible, beautifulspace.
You are such a gift, and I loveall the places that you go to
and all the places that we'reable to go to because these are
places that haven't been gone tobefore where these, these
conversations are somultifaceted, like what you're
(36:10):
saying.
They're so complex.
Like my life has gone in so manydirections for speaking.
Speaking on this that I neverwould've imagined and I would
not change anything, no matterhow hard it has been and how
challenging it is and howchallenging it still is going to
these spaces.
You know, it's hard going intothese spaces.
As a survivor, no one wants totalk about abuse.
(36:32):
No one wants to talk about abuseagainst children, right?
Mm-hmm.
Which is the most importantthing we could be talking about,
which is the saddest thing thatno one wants to talk about it.
So getting over that space ofbeing uncomfortable, but knowing
that it is very difficult goingto these spaces for me as well
going, but the more difficultthing is watching and hearing.
Stories of the victims and ofthings that were not held
(36:53):
properly and not done.
And seeing the damage that itdoes to a life and having to
undo that damage, it's not easygoing into spaces saying,
please, you know, legislate thecircus arts and take the arts
seriously and give us policy andwhat does that even mean?
And you know, using the languageof dc using the language of
politics, which is importantbecause it is a very political
(37:15):
space.
It is very political.
You know, I'm speaking tosenators and members of
Congress.
All the time that are on bothsides, whatever that means for
people and for me, that's itabsolutely means nothing because
you have to be able and bewilling to do that work to get
these bills and these policiespassed.
And you learn that very earlyon.
Like, wow, okay, really we'rereally just talking to
(37:37):
everybody.
Whoa, I, oh my God.
Like these are the people thathold the keys.
So in supporting me.
We have a petition.
It's the Circus Arts Guild ofAmerica.
It's on change.org, and it ispushing for circus arts
recognition in America.
We are also pushing to unionizethe circus arts industry, which
it is not.
There is no unionizedprotections for the circus arts
(37:59):
industry.
I have been a member of SAG foryears, so I know what it's like
to exist.
On set and on stage with unionsupport.
I also know the other part of mycareer that has been so prolific
to exist with zero Unionprotection with people would be
shocked to know that Cirque deSoleil is not unionized.
There are certain facets withinCirque de Soleil shows like
(38:20):
wardrobe, some in makeup, somethat are doing the rigging.
Some of them have unionprotection.
The performers that you've seenon stage and the majority of
everybody else.
No union status.
There's no, it's crazy.
It's crazy.
So in joining me and calling foralso mailing email.
You are a member of Congress andyour senator and talking to your
(38:43):
local council member andassembly members about the
circus arts and aboutregulation, about safe art, safe
circus, emailing SafeSport andsaying, we demand you create a
branch of safe art or safecircus for our children because
our children are simultaneouslycompeting.
Going to circus camps and youare not able to regulate them,
(39:03):
and we know that for a fact andnothing is being done.
I have been in contact with USAgymnastics and SafeSport about
these very same things, and Ihave continued to advocate.
I took them to the White House.
We went to the White House a fewmonths ago.
We strategized an entire meetingwith the Department of Labor.
We were hosted by the WhiteHouse to have this very complex,
multifaceted conversation aroundthe circus arts.
(39:24):
And how we can regulate and howwe can enforce some type of
policy prevention for thesespaces.
So please contact them also toadvocate for the new Safer Sport
policy that is being introducedto this legislative session
right now that's currentlyhappening.
To get that passed email again,your Congress person, and call
them about these issues and say,we actually know that there's
(39:46):
solutions out there, but youdon't have to say, I just want
something to happen.
Say I'm for the unionization ofthe circus arts industry.
I'm for policy in the form ofsafe arts, safe circus, a branch
of safe sport for the performingarts that would be legislated
and have policy and talk tofolks on all of those levels
because it can be done at thelocal level, at the state level,
(40:07):
and then it can go to the higherups on the federal level.
It can just happen first inNevada and Las Vegas.
It can just happen first.
California get and call yourrepresentative to have them
sponsor a bill because we aretrying to have circus arts
recognition in America by theNational Endowment for the Arts,
which would change a lot of theaccessibility of the arts and
(40:28):
funding.
But accessibility is.
Sometimes more important at thispoint than the funding of the
arts.
I hope people really understandthat because every single time
we speak about the arts, italways comes back to just
funding and not that fundingdoesn't allow you to do all
these programs.
Yeah.
But there is alert, a certainlevel of accessibility you don't
have, even if you have thefunding right.
There's certain, there's certaindoors you can't get through.
(40:50):
So.
I've discussed this before, mythree-prong approach and having
policy, you know, we're lookingfor maybe even a circus workers
act.
You know, please say that whenyou call them.
Leave a voicemail.
Send an email.
If you're a part of a circusstudio or a gymnastics gym, this
is time for you to startthinking about those things now,
not, not in the future, and notthinking that you're not a part
(41:12):
of those things.
The people that are in thoseshows that you love to see all
the time in Las Vegas are fromgymnastics, right?
They're, they're, they're fromyour local gym.
They're on your screen competingright now.
Yeah.
So you are advocating for them,even if you might not realize it
when you understand who's behinda lot of the, the, the face
paint, the makeup and the wigs.
(41:32):
Right, right.
You know, it's, it's all of us.
It's people like me that youjust never recognize are up
there, you know?
'cause I, I've, I'm blue, youknow, blue on stage.
I'm a butterfly, I'm whatever.
Right?
Yeah.
You know, I, I'm, I'm, any oneof those things you just, you
just don't recognize, but youare advocating.
For me, there was recently afashion workers act that was
just signed into law in NewYork, and that has changed the
(41:55):
game for the rights that theyhad within the fashion industry.
And it's wild.
People thought that there was,there would never be the
possibility to legislate thefashion world.
I mean, the fashion industry,again, so corrupt, so
unforgiving, so abusive.
So not by the book.
I mean a lot of it istrafficking in the fashion
industry and circus is very,very similar in that way.
(42:18):
Not to continue to knock this,but the medium is so amazing,
right?
And so beautiful and sointeresting and so innovative
and so historic.
That's why we need to do thingsfrom different angles.
So reminding you that we do havea petition on change.org and you
can contact us through there,the Circus Arts Guild of America
in supporting our efforts andyou know, starting to speak out
and say.
(42:38):
The circus arts industrydeserves union rights.
Specifically, we deserve policy,a Circus Rights Act, a Circus
Workers Act, and then again, theaddition to SafeSport and
contacting them directly becauseit does work.
I mean, we've seen people forsure get tweeted down on x and.
Policy changes or companieschange, right?
(42:59):
Like that matters when thesesenators and members of
Congress, because we're inmeetings with them all the time.
If they're getting a lot ofmessages about something, they
will change it if they'regetting hundreds, thousands of
calls.
That's the feedback we get whenwe're in meetings, whether it's
about, you know, protectingsurvivors and pushing a
important bill in thatparticular way, or if it's
pushing something within thearts.
(43:20):
But if they are not hearingabout it, if it's not in their
awareness, it's very challengingfor us to continue to do the.
Work without having folks thatare either connected to the
industry or outside of theindustry or don't feel, you
know, like they have a directvoice to it.
But you do, you know, yeah.
It's, it shouldn't matterbecause you know someone,
someone of someone is going tobe affected by these industries
that I'm talking to you about.
(43:41):
Someone that you know has achild or is doing something as a
hobby.
Any of those things is going,any of those types of
involvements in these spaces isgoing to be affected by your
actions in the form of policyand doing grassroots.
You know, efforts on the ground.
You can find me on social media.
Shana, S-H-E-N-E-A.
I go by Shenae Stiletto and I'mputting it out there just so
(44:03):
that folks can find me andfollow me in that way, and
follow the work and sign thepetitions and show up to the
meetings that we have.
We do town halls, we do virtualmeetups, and then so much of our
work is behind the scenes.
If there's anything that youwanna offer us pro bono, we're
always looking for policydrafters for folks that are
already connected to government,that can continue to advocate
for us, we come to dc.
(44:23):
If you wanna meet us in DC, wewill come to meet you in DC like
we literally.
And I mostly go literally allover to conventions and
conferences and anything thatwill have me in discussing these
very important and crucialchanges that I believe that can
happen.
We just need to get the propersupport for them and to get them
passed through in some way.
So thank you again, Allie, forhaving me.
Alli (44:42):
Yeah, of course.
And we'll post links to allthose things and I mean, you are
amazing the work that you'redoing and I think to love to
care about something as much asyou do is to truly love it.
Right.
We don't.
We don't want something tochange that we don't care about.
And you care a lot about thisindustry and the multifaceted
(45:03):
approaches and access to it, andI think we all can.
I personally love anytimesomeone loves something, I wanna
get behind it and support itbecause.
It's just what life is.
And so I hope all of ourlisteners will help in this
cause because at the root of itis just deep love and deep care
and giving you and otherperformers the tools to do it
(45:25):
safely, effectively, andappreciated.
Right?
We all need to be appreciatedtoo, and that's important.
And knowing that.
You have rights and you cannegotiate and you can make your
life better.
Not based off of theinterpretation of some survey,
but off of the real lifeexperience.
And that voice is heard is huge.
(45:47):
So please everyone use yourvoices and get involved on this
because it is wonderful and soimportant and on many levels.
So Shana, thank you for beinghere.
It has meant a lot to me andthis has been such a lovely
conversation.
Shanae (46:00):
Thank so much, ally.
I'm so honored by all the workthat you do, and thank you so
much for having me on theBreaking Silence podcast.
Of course,
Alli (46:06):
yes.
Thanks everybody.
We'll see you next time.
Safety.
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