May 28, 2024 • 30 mins
Creating change and safe spaces in the beer industry takes time, commitment, maturity and a desire to always listen to what those working within it are telling us. Throughout the episode Ryan Stack and I talk through what his time at Prairie Artisan Ales was like and how they created a culture based on believing staff, showing up for one another as a team and the need to be constantly working at a culture.
If you are anyone you know may be interested in hosting one of our trainings, please reach out to us at breakingsilence.org or to Alli Meyerhardt directly at alli@breakingsilence.org
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Music (00:00):
We are breaking the silence, starting the
(00:05):
conversation.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back
Allison (00:09):
to the Breaking Sounds podcast.
I'm joined here today with Ryan.
Ryan is someone that has a lotof experience in the bar and
restaurant industry.
In fact, he has over 20 years ofit.
He successfully owned andoperated the Mixed Company
Cocktail Bar and was the ownerand operator of Prairie Artisan
(00:31):
Ales for over five years.
Under his guidance, the brew pubflourished, creating exceptional
beers that resonated with localsand visitors alike.
He eventually relinquished hisownership in Prairie and is now
in the state of Colorado, wherehe is actively contributing to
causes close to his heart.
Such as being on the lovelyboard for breaking silence.
I'm so excited to talk with Ryanabout his journey through the
(00:53):
beer and bar industry and howthe continuation of change and
empowerment is more importantthan ever.
So Ryan, welcome to the pod.
Ryan (01:01):
Hey, Allie.
Thanks for having me on.
Of
Allison (01:05):
course.
I am really excited for thisconversation.
I think, you know, as ourlisteners are aware, we work in
the, uh, Brewery and bar spacedoing trainings for staff.
And so it's just really lovelyto have you on our board and
being able to speak from anowner's perspective of the
impact of trainings like this inspaces like bars and breweries.
(01:30):
So can you just kind of talkabout for you and your
experience, what was availablefor you when you were working in
the restaurant industry and justkind of the culture that does
exist in these spaces that wecan work to do better with?
Ryan (01:44):
I mean, really in my time in industry, there were outside
of like HR, there really were notools, everything was reliant on
the ownership groups orindividuals to really kind of
set the standard for a safeworking space for everyone in
(02:08):
both of my businesses, it wasvery important to myself and my
partners that In every wayimaginable, our spaces were
inclusive and safe from everyoneto like our patrons, our staff.
We always went out of our way tomake sure that, you know, it was
(02:29):
an actual safe space foreveryone.
You know, as far as like gendergoes, sexual orientation,
everything.
We really went out of our way inboth businesses to make sure
that it was a safe space foreveryone.
And everybody could come andenjoy.
working there, patronizingthere, but there were no tools.
So it was just, it was the wildwest of service industry.
(02:52):
You definitely didn't haveorganizations like breaking
silence or any other sort of,for lack of a better term,
toolbox to go to when you hadissues or for education, it was
just kind of flying by the seatof our pants and trying to do
what's right by everybody.
Not a lot of assets to takeadvantage of just trying to make
(03:16):
the right decisions andhopefully make sure that
everybody felt good about theirsituation in our spaces.
Allison (03:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, for Prairie being, Imean, as a beer nerd, Prairie is
definitely one of thosebreweries that's very well known
and highly respected in theindustry.
And did you feel like with that?
You had more leverage to createa more inclusive, safe space, or
(03:48):
was that something that you alltalked about just the power of
influence, I suppose, thatexisted at prairie,
Ryan (03:54):
the brew pub operated in a separate space than the main
brewery and tap room.
We have a little bit morefreedom to do.
The things that we wanted to dowithin the community.
So it was a discussion and aconstant ongoing discussion of
how we can be more inclusive andbe a place where people are
(04:15):
comfortable coming no matterwhat.
We've definitely leaned on ourbrand as kind of an asset to
bring people in.
And once they were there to makesure that.
They felt safe being there orworking there
Allison (04:29):
Yeah a question we get a lot when we do trainings with
bars and breweries is how do wetalk about what we're doing
without it feeling like virtuesignaling and Just bragging
about how yeah, we do thistraining and we're amazing What
kind of advice would you havefor people in that?
Because I pushed back that youshould absolutely be talking
(04:52):
about what you're doing tocreate safe space as long as
you're actively doing something,you know, it's different than
hanging up a pride flag and ablack lives matters sign and
saying we're inclusive, butthere's nothing behind it.
So how, what would be youradvice for people that are, are
kind of trying to balancetalking in these spaces, but not
(05:13):
wanting to seem like they'rebragging about it?
Ryan (05:16):
That's a tough one.
I think you're absolutely rightin that.
You know, you should be talkingabout it and putting it out into
the community that you areactively working on making sure
that things and processes andsystems are in place to be a
safe space and be an inclusivespace.
(05:36):
So I don't really think that itis bragging as long as you're
doing something like you'resaying.
So I would say as If I weretalking to somebody who is, who
owns a business and is reallylike, this is something that
actually means something tothem, I would say, put it out
there as much as you want.
I don't think that it can beexpressed enough to your
(05:58):
patrons, to your staff,potential future staff and
future patrons that, This is whowe are and this is what we're
doing.
I don't think you can put thatmessage out there enough.
Allison (06:11):
Yeah, absolutely I mean, that's the goal right is
that it's consistent and ongoingas you've moved away from the
industry Because you've beenaway from it for a few years,
right?
Ryan (06:21):
Yeah, I sold my shares of the brewpub just After the
lockdown, the big lockdown forCOVID.
So that like March,
Allison (06:32):
yeah, yeah.
Almost four years now.
Yeah.
So about
Ryan (06:35):
four years and in between then and now I did some
consulting for another brewery,but that was pretty short term.
Yeah.
It's been about four years.
Allison (06:45):
Yeah.
And in that time, there's beenquite a conversation around how
male driven the industry is.
I mean, a conversation that wasgoing on for a long time, as
far.
As if we can't get morediversity into the space, it's
gonna be harder for it to be asafe space.
And I think not only is thatgood for business, diversity's
(07:08):
good for business.
There's obviously a need for theindustry to start to change, and
it's kind of been slow moving inthat.
Why do you think the industry isso hesitant to diversify,
especially when the patronagehas changed so much in the past
decade?
Ryan (07:25):
I think that beer world, it started out as just
completely male driven industry,whether, you know, people are
brewing beer in their garage or,you know, in an actual brewery,
big or small.
And I think that, It's so slowto change just because people,
(07:47):
the people that started themovement of beer to the masses
are still pretty heavilyinvolved.
And I think that their grasp onthe way that things used to be
is still pretty strong.
I also think that a lack ofdiversity in ownership is a big
part of the reason, not justdiversity in brewers.
(08:10):
And then other staff, butdiversity and ownership, I don't
think we see nearly enoughgender diversity, ethnic
diversity, sexual orientationdiversity when it comes to the
ownership groups of thesebreweries, still pretty straight
white folks running and owningthese breweries, and I think
that's probably another reasonwhy it's so slow to make the
(08:34):
transition into inclusive anddiverse spaces and businesses.
Thanks.
Allison (08:41):
Yeah, and I think that when we're talking about a space
where people are coming to eatand enjoy and also to drink, we
kind of feel a hopelessness ofhow do we control this narrative
or what's been working hasalways been working.
So let's just keep doing that.
It's very much a status quothing.
(09:02):
But if we don't change it, thesespaces will truly never become
safe.
So what are some things thatpeople Two things like from the
ownership side, but also from ifI'm going to a brewery, what
should I be looking for thathelps me understand this is a
safe space that helps me knowI'm going to be included here
Ryan (09:19):
as a patron feeling safe what to look for?
I think that's pretty evident inthe staff.
If you see just a diverse groupof people running the space, I
think that's a pretty goodindicator that the ownership Has
taken steps to ensure thateverybody is represented within
(09:41):
their staff, and then I thinkthat will project itself into
how the patrons feel when theycome into a space.
You know, if you see a stafffull of 20 year old white guys,
it's probably not going to feelas safe as it would if, you
know, there was, you know, Amyriad of different kinds of
(10:04):
people running the space.
So I think from a patronageperspective, I would think that.
The more diverse the staff, themore likely that it is going to
be a safe space.
And as far as the owners go,trying to get people to think
beyond the dollar signs in thisindustry is really difficult
(10:27):
because it is such a difficultindustry to be successful in
profit margins are.
Insanely not in your favor, butI would just say trying to get
people to not be afraid of doingsomething new was probably the
best way to go about fosteringthe feeling of a safe culture.
(10:49):
That makes sense.
Allison (10:51):
Yeah, I mean, we have to be willing to take risk, and
whether we're the owner of abusiness or an individual, if we
want a space to feel safe, it'sabout risk, and oftentimes the
risk is vulnerability, the riskcan be potential loss in profit,
but that's usually verytemporarily, it's usually just a
transition period as you gothrough.
(11:12):
Are we building and inviting newpeople into the space, you know,
through your time, did you eversee or have moments where you
saw your staff step up andreally empower themselves and
say no to a person that wasbeing disruptive or.
You know, the other way around,whether that was a customer
(11:33):
stepping up for your staff inthat way.
I think a lot of times we hearmore of the horror stories of
the industry instead of thepositive ones, which do exist.
I don't know.
Just do you have anything thatsticks out to you
Ryan (11:47):
at the brewpub?
We really empowered our staff todo things Like, just like what
you're talking about.
Step up for each other.
Step up for patrons.
And there are so many instanceswhere a customer would be
intoxicated and behavinginappropriately towards one of
our staff members and eithermyself or another staff member
(12:10):
would come and But completelyhave their back.
We made it really clear to themthat we were a family and that
we take care of our own people.
And that really kind of thatmessage really stuck with our
staff.
And then in turn, customers knewthat was the case when they
(12:32):
would come into the brew pub.
So it really, that messagereally spread throughout the
community.
So we didn't really have, youknow, after the first couple of
years, the instances where.
People were misbehaving orwhatever was significantly less
just because of how we grew ourculture within our space.
Allison (12:55):
Yeah, what were some values that you had in the space
to sort of.
Make sure staff was always awareof that ability to look out for
each other.
Ryan (13:06):
You know, we, we talked with them constantly about, you
know, if somebody is making youfeel uncomfortable by the things
that they're saying or liketouching you or, you know,
whatever things that are justcommonplace in the service
industry, we made sure that theyknew that they could stand up
for themselves.
They could come and get one ofus and we would step, take care
(13:28):
of them.
Their place, or we reallypreached watching out for each
other.
We really preached not beingafraid to speak up.
We really, I keep saying preach,but that's what we did.
We were really intense.
Yeah, message
Allison (13:42):
repeat constantly.
Ryan (13:43):
Yeah, exactly.
Allison (13:44):
Yeah.
The
Ryan (13:44):
best way to get people to remember things is to just
constantly batter them with thethings you want them to
remember.
It really was.
In my dealings with the staff, Idefinitely treated them like I
treat my own kids in that mymessage to my kids is like, You
guys are a team.
You have to take care of eachother from now until forever.
(14:06):
And it was kind of the samething with the staff at the
brewpub.
You know, you guys are all onebig family, one team.
And if you don't take care ofeach other, then nobody is going
to do it for you.
We kind of went with the familyvalues approach with our staff
and it paid off.
Allison (14:23):
I think it's really amazing.
And when we think about likewhat we can do to create safe
space, there's sort of this boththings you're talking about,
which is like allyship.
And then Empowerment andadvocacy.
So, those things are verydifferent.
I think a lot of times we blurthem together.
But, you know, there's the firstThing in any of our ability and
(14:44):
again, whether it's I'm acustomer at a brewery, if I'm
working at a brewery is feelingempowered to use my voice and
then having that support behindme and Knowing that if I do need
help from someone else, it'sgonna be there There's you
believe people basically ifsomeone says I need them to go
(15:07):
and I don't feel comfortable orI do feel comfortable to get rid
of them, but I've seen.
No, that's okay.
Not being like, well, are yousure?
Are you sure that they're thatbad?
You know, like sort of never the
Ryan (15:20):
case with somebody was having an issue.
Their word against a customer'sword is never going to weigh in
the favor of the customer.
If one of my Okay.
People is telling me thatthey're uncomfortable, then
we're gonna fix that right away,
Allison (15:32):
right?
Yeah.
I mean, it's kind of theopposite of the customer is
always right.
There's sort of you're sayingthe customer definitely
Ryan (15:40):
not always right.
Allison (15:43):
Yeah, but that's such an old school philosophy.
Like how
Ryan (15:47):
I hate it.
I hate it so
Allison (15:48):
much.
Why do you hate it?
Ryan (15:51):
Because they're not always right.
At least in my experience,they're frequently not right.
Allison (16:01):
Well, and I think a lot of times we as customers, I
think it's changing ourperspective of me as a customer
Being able to kind of dowhatever the fuck I want sort of
an entitlement piece But like wehave to shift our as a customer
I need to view serversdifferently and I need to view
the space differently like foryou.
(16:23):
What's your ideal?
customer coming into any brewery
Ryan (16:28):
The ideal customer is somebody that is coming to
respectfully have a good time.
They don't have these crazy highexpectations and standards that
are impossible to meet.
They treat people with respectand in turn, they want to be
treated with respect.
I mean, I think the idealcustomer is really a give and
(16:49):
take relationship.
You know, they want to betreated a certain way.
The staff wants to be treated acertain way.
So the people that are willingto come in and behave in that
way, though, I think those arethe ideal customers, you know,
they don't, they're notdemanding, they're not pushy,
they're not rude, they're notwasted.
(17:10):
That's the non ideal.
Customer, I think
Allison (17:14):
that versus that person, right?
Yeah,
Ryan (17:16):
exactly.
Yeah.
Allison (17:17):
Yeah.
It's like basically coming inwith intention of connection
that I want to
Music (17:22):
be
Allison (17:24):
connected to this space to this staff to this moment.
Not I have expectations thatneed to be fulfilled.
I feel like is the mind shift.
Ryan (17:35):
I always joke that I used to always joke.
It's still hard for me to get myhead out of the service industry
space, but I would always jokeand say that when we have
customers coming in, we likethose are our guests in our
home, you know?
So when I'm a customer, I kindof look at it the same way.
(17:57):
Like I'm the guest in somebody'shome.
Allison (18:00):
Yeah, I think it's, I love that messaging so much and
I feel like, you know, obviouslyat Breaking Science we're trying
to create safe space in theworld.
We want the whole world to bekind and lovely, but we can't
solve the whole world at once sopicking little micro communities
To help and assist in that, andI think we all can relate and
(18:23):
feel empowered to know thatwhenever you walk into a
restaurant, whether that's abrew pub or a fast food chain or
fine dining, whatever spectrumwe're on, if you have the
mentality of, this is, Me beingwelcomed in to something sacred
(18:44):
because a home is sacred, right?
A home is.
Absolutely.
Ryan (18:46):
Yeah,
Allison (18:47):
the safe loving space if we Give that mentality to
that place that place willtypically give that back to us
and that inherently createssafety for Everyone involved
which sounds way better than mebeing like Serve me.
Do as I say.
Give me what I
Ryan (19:07):
want immediately.
Allison (19:09):
Right, yeah.
I mean the word server isproblematic.
I think probably, maybe weshould think about changing that
word in general.
Ryan (19:19):
Yeah, I think you probably, you might be onto
something there.
Allison (19:22):
Yeah, yeah, it's important to level.
I mean, we're just saying likeleveling the playing field of
knowing that like you're givingsomething and that person's
giving you something right thatthere is both things like that
server does feed off of acustomer's energy and space and
what they're giving to them,which is important.
I just I love whenever we cangive people like as a listener
like this little thing you cando to
Ryan (19:44):
don't be a dick.
Allison (19:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a break cycles of, ofviolence.
Cause it's also, I think a lotof times people don't understand
how often servers or bartendersare experiencing harassment and
that could be in a micro way, itcould be in a very obvious way,
but I don't, I think it wouldbe, you would feel like a rare
(20:08):
day if you went through a shiftand someone didn't make some
comment, at least as a female inthe industry.
Great.
Ryan (20:16):
As a male as well, it can get pretty uncomfortable,
Allison (20:19):
right?
And like if you're experiencing,you know, 10 of those and you're
my 11th customer, I might not bethe nicest because I might be
kind of like,
Ryan (20:28):
yeah,
Allison (20:29):
fuck you.
I'm already know what's comingand I'm over it,
Ryan (20:33):
right?
Yeah,
Allison (20:35):
and I think that's the empathy piece.
Sometimes like if server isn'tmaybe on their game or whatever
it might be, it has nothing todo with you, but you do have the
power to turn it around.
Yeah.
Ryan (20:47):
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Again, I often say like, I feellike one of the things that
everybody should have to do intheir life, just spend six
months in the service industry.
That'd be eye opening foreverybody.
And I think that woulddefinitely foster a shift in the
way that people behave when theygo out to work.
(21:07):
Well,
Allison (21:09):
I mean, if we're using like the home analogy, just
think about if you don't havethe opportunity to be a server,
work in the industry, then justthink about how it feels when
you clean up the house and thenyour kids come in and they like
dump Legos everywhere and spillapplesauce all over the couch
and things are chaos.
Like how, how does that feel?
(21:29):
That's like, I just spent somuch time, just
Ryan (21:32):
fucking clean this mess.
Allison (21:34):
Like, how are we right back here?
You know, like how frustratingthat can feel.
You have that.
Or if you cook a lovely meal andno one says thank you or
whatever it might be.
Right.
Like we.
Would never treat the people orhopefully ideally we're not
treating the people in our livesI'd say never but ideally we're
(21:54):
treating those in our lives withrespect and love and If we don't
ever give servers that or if wedon't ever give the industry
that it's hard for the industryto To change people within it
need to feel like it's not thisexhausting, horrible place to
be.
And I just think the reason welose such wonderful voices in
(22:16):
the industry quickly is becauseof how hard it is from every
angle,
Ryan (22:22):
yeah.
Yeah.
That doesn't sound fun.
Allison (22:25):
No, I don't think it is.
I mean, one of our, our slogansis drink kindly, you know,
something that we write and saya lot in the brewery space.
What does that mean to you?
Like when you hear that phrase,what does that kind of mean for
you in this world?
Ryan (22:40):
Yeah, I think that kind of goes back to what you were
saying about coming into a spacewith intention.
You know, I think that prettymuch sums it up.
Really pretty well right theredrink kindly is, you know,
you're not coming into a spaceto drink and just get completely
wasted.
You're coming into a space tohave some drinks, have a good
(23:02):
time and make sure the peoplearound you have a good time as
well and are taken care oftotally different than coming
into binge drink and onto thenext space.
Allison (23:14):
Right.
If that's your intention.
You can still do that withkindness.
You know, we can still be like,I'm going to slam five beers and
move on.
Like, that's okay.
I mean, do you, but also havethe mindset going into that
moment of I'm going to do thisthe most kind way possible.
And I'm not just going to getmad when I get cut off because
(23:38):
obviously I got cut off.
Right.
I slammed five beers.
So
Ryan (23:42):
right.
Yeah.
Allison (23:43):
Right.
That's part of it.
Ryan (23:45):
Those two mindsets.
And to me anyway, I would, Ithink that drink kindly sits
better with one, one of thosetwo people than it does with the
other person.
Allison (23:55):
I mean, I'd love to find a way to bridge that gap, I
guess.
That's my, that's our goal overhere.
Any words of advice on that?
Ryan (24:03):
Just get everybody to grow up just a little bit.
Allison (24:05):
Oh yeah.
Maturity.
That's part of it.
Ryan (24:08):
Yeah, it's key.
I think
Allison (24:10):
it's hard.
Like, I think also withanything, this isn't about being
perfect at it.
Like you're not on both sides,whether we're in the industry or
if we're a customer interactingwith beer, we're not going to be
perfect.
And that's okay.
You know, it's just like what Isay in every training, it's,
you're not going to be perfectempathy right away.
You're not going to be perfect.
If you have always seen theservice industry is just
something that's there that youget to have access to and, you
(24:32):
know, Whatever, and now we'rechallenging you to think about
it as a connection point and toenter it with like softness and
kindness, that might be a bigshift, which is okay.
And be kind to yourself as youtry to approach it differently,
I think is also important.
Ryan (24:48):
I agree.
Allison (24:49):
So as you've kind of moved away from beer and into
helping with breaking silence,like what has kind of brought
you here and why do you want tobe a part of this organization?
Ryan (25:00):
Just being able to see the work that you do day in and day
out and to see it firsthand isit's inspiring and it
immediately knew that it wassomething I wanted to be a part
of.
But I feel like aside from that,as I mentioned before, like we
took a lot of pride in You know,making sure that our spaces were
(25:22):
inclusive and safe and diverse.
So it just seemed like kind of anatural fit.
It's a way for me to be able tocontinue to be a part of doing
something that I enjoy and beingable to do it and not have to be
in a bar or a restaurant.
Ownership, you know, it justmade sense.
(25:42):
I think that the work that youare doing is wildly important.
If I can be a part of that inany way, then sign me up.
Allison (25:51):
Yeah, I mean, we're very glad and lucky to have you.
So and yeah, I think if youcould change your guiding me and
you're helping me so much inthis side of our work, if you
could see a change in theindustry in the next couple
Year, what would that change be?
What would you want to see fromthe industry?
Ryan (26:10):
We've been talking about diversity and inclusion, and I
think that those two things,whether it's a brewery, a bar, a
restaurant, I think those two.
Ideas.
They're the cornerstone ofchange for this industry.
If you don't have those twothings, you're not going to be
(26:31):
successful in fostering anatmosphere of safety.
So if I were going to say thatthe two things that I would like
to see continue to change, itwould be that diversity and
inclusion from top to bottomownership.
Staffing patronage, everybodyneeds to feel safe.
And once everybody feels safe,then it's instantly a better
(26:54):
place.
And, you know, that message willresound with your staff and then
in turn will resound with yourcustomers and then your
community.
Allison (27:05):
Totally.
And that's the goal.
I mean, I guess when I thinkabout beer and breweries, that's
my ideal.
That's what I believe it is.
I believe it wants to be.
Ryan (27:16):
Yeah, people treat, in my experience, a brewery is
communal gathering place.
They're all over the community.
There's something for everybody,but it is a place that people
come to be with friends, meetnew people, celebrate community.
You know, it's all aboutcommunity, in my opinion.
(27:38):
For whatever my opinion isworth,
Allison (27:40):
I think it's worth a lot.
It's worth quite a bit in thisregard and in others.
But yeah, yeah, we have tofoster that community.
And I think as you're speakingabout diversity inclusion, it's
also just remembering that's anongoing thing.
You know, we can't just focus onit for a year and then we're
like, Oh, cool.
We've done it.
Ryan (27:58):
Yeah, I think a year is very short term time frame.
It definitely Yeah.
Thinking about things a year outis good, but like, I think in
this situation, looking atthings like five to ten years
out is, Like kind of wherepeople should be.
You can make some small changesin a year that will make you
(28:20):
feel like you're doing somethingsuccessfully when really you're
just kind of, you're really not.
If you can do things over thecourse of five to ten years and
can consistently make change,that's when Real change will
come about.
Allison (28:35):
Yeah, I love that.
Well for time's sake is thereanything else you want to add
Ryan or include in this
Ryan (28:45):
I Really appreciate you having me on like I mentioned
before this is talking aboutmyself and the things that I've
been involved in is like myleast favorite thing to do, but
I just Want to make sure youknow that we all appreciate the
hard work that you do every dayand whether it's in the podcast
or behind the scenes and in theorganization or out doing
(29:06):
trainings, you know, you're.
Doing a great job and just hopethat you're able to continue and
we're all able to benefit fromall of your hard work Going
forward.
Allison (29:17):
Thank you.
That's very sweet.
And as always, thank you forbeing a part and being here on
the pod today I know thatthere's a lot of good little
gems for people to take as wemove through Interacting with
people in the world and how wecan do it a little more kindly.
So thank you for that message
Ryan (29:32):
Yeah, don't be a dick That's the big takeaway from
everything.
Don't be a dick.
Be nice to servers and be niceto everyone.
Yeah.
Don't be a dick though.
Allison (29:42):
Don't be a dick.
That's the key quote on thisone.
Greatly love it, Sweet.
Thanks Ryan.
Thanks for being here.
Ryan (29:49):
Yeah, thank you.
We are breaking the silence, starting the
(00:05):
conversation.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back
Allison (00:09):
to the Breaking Sounds podcast.
I'm joined here today with Ryan.
Ryan is someone that has a lotof experience in the bar and
restaurant industry.
In fact, he has over 20 years ofit.
He successfully owned andoperated the Mixed Company
Cocktail Bar and was the ownerand operator of Prairie Artisan
(00:31):
Ales for over five years.
Under his guidance, the brew pubflourished, creating exceptional
beers that resonated with localsand visitors alike.
He eventually relinquished hisownership in Prairie and is now
in the state of Colorado, wherehe is actively contributing to
causes close to his heart.
Such as being on the lovelyboard for breaking silence.
I'm so excited to talk with Ryanabout his journey through the
(00:53):
beer and bar industry and howthe continuation of change and
empowerment is more importantthan ever.
So Ryan, welcome to the pod.
Ryan (01:01):
Hey, Allie.
Thanks for having me on.
Of
Allison (01:05):
course.
I am really excited for thisconversation.
I think, you know, as ourlisteners are aware, we work in
the, uh, Brewery and bar spacedoing trainings for staff.
And so it's just really lovelyto have you on our board and
being able to speak from anowner's perspective of the
impact of trainings like this inspaces like bars and breweries.
(01:30):
So can you just kind of talkabout for you and your
experience, what was availablefor you when you were working in
the restaurant industry and justkind of the culture that does
exist in these spaces that wecan work to do better with?
Ryan (01:44):
I mean, really in my time in industry, there were outside
of like HR, there really were notools, everything was reliant on
the ownership groups orindividuals to really kind of
set the standard for a safeworking space for everyone in
(02:08):
both of my businesses, it wasvery important to myself and my
partners that In every wayimaginable, our spaces were
inclusive and safe from everyoneto like our patrons, our staff.
We always went out of our way tomake sure that, you know, it was
(02:29):
an actual safe space foreveryone.
You know, as far as like gendergoes, sexual orientation,
everything.
We really went out of our way inboth businesses to make sure
that it was a safe space foreveryone.
And everybody could come andenjoy.
working there, patronizingthere, but there were no tools.
So it was just, it was the wildwest of service industry.
(02:52):
You definitely didn't haveorganizations like breaking
silence or any other sort of,for lack of a better term,
toolbox to go to when you hadissues or for education, it was
just kind of flying by the seatof our pants and trying to do
what's right by everybody.
Not a lot of assets to takeadvantage of just trying to make
(03:16):
the right decisions andhopefully make sure that
everybody felt good about theirsituation in our spaces.
Allison (03:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, for Prairie being, Imean, as a beer nerd, Prairie is
definitely one of thosebreweries that's very well known
and highly respected in theindustry.
And did you feel like with that?
You had more leverage to createa more inclusive, safe space, or
(03:48):
was that something that you alltalked about just the power of
influence, I suppose, thatexisted at prairie,
Ryan (03:54):
the brew pub operated in a separate space than the main
brewery and tap room.
We have a little bit morefreedom to do.
The things that we wanted to dowithin the community.
So it was a discussion and aconstant ongoing discussion of
how we can be more inclusive andbe a place where people are
(04:15):
comfortable coming no matterwhat.
We've definitely leaned on ourbrand as kind of an asset to
bring people in.
And once they were there to makesure that.
They felt safe being there orworking there
Allison (04:29):
Yeah a question we get a lot when we do trainings with
bars and breweries is how do wetalk about what we're doing
without it feeling like virtuesignaling and Just bragging
about how yeah, we do thistraining and we're amazing What
kind of advice would you havefor people in that?
Because I pushed back that youshould absolutely be talking
(04:52):
about what you're doing tocreate safe space as long as
you're actively doing something,you know, it's different than
hanging up a pride flag and ablack lives matters sign and
saying we're inclusive, butthere's nothing behind it.
So how, what would be youradvice for people that are, are
kind of trying to balancetalking in these spaces, but not
(05:13):
wanting to seem like they'rebragging about it?
Ryan (05:16):
That's a tough one.
I think you're absolutely rightin that.
You know, you should be talkingabout it and putting it out into
the community that you areactively working on making sure
that things and processes andsystems are in place to be a
safe space and be an inclusivespace.
(05:36):
So I don't really think that itis bragging as long as you're
doing something like you'resaying.
So I would say as If I weretalking to somebody who is, who
owns a business and is reallylike, this is something that
actually means something tothem, I would say, put it out
there as much as you want.
I don't think that it can beexpressed enough to your
(05:58):
patrons, to your staff,potential future staff and
future patrons that, This is whowe are and this is what we're
doing.
I don't think you can put thatmessage out there enough.
Allison (06:11):
Yeah, absolutely I mean, that's the goal right is
that it's consistent and ongoingas you've moved away from the
industry Because you've beenaway from it for a few years,
right?
Ryan (06:21):
Yeah, I sold my shares of the brewpub just After the
lockdown, the big lockdown forCOVID.
So that like March,
Allison (06:32):
yeah, yeah.
Almost four years now.
Yeah.
So about
Ryan (06:35):
four years and in between then and now I did some
consulting for another brewery,but that was pretty short term.
Yeah.
It's been about four years.
Allison (06:45):
Yeah.
And in that time, there's beenquite a conversation around how
male driven the industry is.
I mean, a conversation that wasgoing on for a long time, as
far.
As if we can't get morediversity into the space, it's
gonna be harder for it to be asafe space.
And I think not only is thatgood for business, diversity's
(07:08):
good for business.
There's obviously a need for theindustry to start to change, and
it's kind of been slow moving inthat.
Why do you think the industry isso hesitant to diversify,
especially when the patronagehas changed so much in the past
decade?
Ryan (07:25):
I think that beer world, it started out as just
completely male driven industry,whether, you know, people are
brewing beer in their garage or,you know, in an actual brewery,
big or small.
And I think that, It's so slowto change just because people,
(07:47):
the people that started themovement of beer to the masses
are still pretty heavilyinvolved.
And I think that their grasp onthe way that things used to be
is still pretty strong.
I also think that a lack ofdiversity in ownership is a big
part of the reason, not justdiversity in brewers.
(08:10):
And then other staff, butdiversity and ownership, I don't
think we see nearly enoughgender diversity, ethnic
diversity, sexual orientationdiversity when it comes to the
ownership groups of thesebreweries, still pretty straight
white folks running and owningthese breweries, and I think
that's probably another reasonwhy it's so slow to make the
(08:34):
transition into inclusive anddiverse spaces and businesses.
Thanks.
Allison (08:41):
Yeah, and I think that when we're talking about a space
where people are coming to eatand enjoy and also to drink, we
kind of feel a hopelessness ofhow do we control this narrative
or what's been working hasalways been working.
So let's just keep doing that.
It's very much a status quothing.
(09:02):
But if we don't change it, thesespaces will truly never become
safe.
So what are some things thatpeople Two things like from the
ownership side, but also from ifI'm going to a brewery, what
should I be looking for thathelps me understand this is a
safe space that helps me knowI'm going to be included here
Ryan (09:19):
as a patron feeling safe what to look for?
I think that's pretty evident inthe staff.
If you see just a diverse groupof people running the space, I
think that's a pretty goodindicator that the ownership Has
taken steps to ensure thateverybody is represented within
(09:41):
their staff, and then I thinkthat will project itself into
how the patrons feel when theycome into a space.
You know, if you see a stafffull of 20 year old white guys,
it's probably not going to feelas safe as it would if, you
know, there was, you know, Amyriad of different kinds of
(10:04):
people running the space.
So I think from a patronageperspective, I would think that.
The more diverse the staff, themore likely that it is going to
be a safe space.
And as far as the owners go,trying to get people to think
beyond the dollar signs in thisindustry is really difficult
(10:27):
because it is such a difficultindustry to be successful in
profit margins are.
Insanely not in your favor, butI would just say trying to get
people to not be afraid of doingsomething new was probably the
best way to go about fosteringthe feeling of a safe culture.
(10:49):
That makes sense.
Allison (10:51):
Yeah, I mean, we have to be willing to take risk, and
whether we're the owner of abusiness or an individual, if we
want a space to feel safe, it'sabout risk, and oftentimes the
risk is vulnerability, the riskcan be potential loss in profit,
but that's usually verytemporarily, it's usually just a
transition period as you gothrough.
(11:12):
Are we building and inviting newpeople into the space, you know,
through your time, did you eversee or have moments where you
saw your staff step up andreally empower themselves and
say no to a person that wasbeing disruptive or.
You know, the other way around,whether that was a customer
(11:33):
stepping up for your staff inthat way.
I think a lot of times we hearmore of the horror stories of
the industry instead of thepositive ones, which do exist.
I don't know.
Just do you have anything thatsticks out to you
Ryan (11:47):
at the brewpub?
We really empowered our staff todo things Like, just like what
you're talking about.
Step up for each other.
Step up for patrons.
And there are so many instanceswhere a customer would be
intoxicated and behavinginappropriately towards one of
our staff members and eithermyself or another staff member
(12:10):
would come and But completelyhave their back.
We made it really clear to themthat we were a family and that
we take care of our own people.
And that really kind of thatmessage really stuck with our
staff.
And then in turn, customers knewthat was the case when they
(12:32):
would come into the brew pub.
So it really, that messagereally spread throughout the
community.
So we didn't really have, youknow, after the first couple of
years, the instances where.
People were misbehaving orwhatever was significantly less
just because of how we grew ourculture within our space.
Allison (12:55):
Yeah, what were some values that you had in the space
to sort of.
Make sure staff was always awareof that ability to look out for
each other.
Ryan (13:06):
You know, we, we talked with them constantly about, you
know, if somebody is making youfeel uncomfortable by the things
that they're saying or liketouching you or, you know,
whatever things that are justcommonplace in the service
industry, we made sure that theyknew that they could stand up
for themselves.
They could come and get one ofus and we would step, take care
(13:28):
of them.
Their place, or we reallypreached watching out for each
other.
We really preached not beingafraid to speak up.
We really, I keep saying preach,but that's what we did.
We were really intense.
Yeah, message
Allison (13:42):
repeat constantly.
Ryan (13:43):
Yeah, exactly.
Allison (13:44):
Yeah.
The
Ryan (13:44):
best way to get people to remember things is to just
constantly batter them with thethings you want them to
remember.
It really was.
In my dealings with the staff, Idefinitely treated them like I
treat my own kids in that mymessage to my kids is like, You
guys are a team.
You have to take care of eachother from now until forever.
(14:06):
And it was kind of the samething with the staff at the
brewpub.
You know, you guys are all onebig family, one team.
And if you don't take care ofeach other, then nobody is going
to do it for you.
We kind of went with the familyvalues approach with our staff
and it paid off.
Allison (14:23):
I think it's really amazing.
And when we think about likewhat we can do to create safe
space, there's sort of this boththings you're talking about,
which is like allyship.
And then Empowerment andadvocacy.
So, those things are verydifferent.
I think a lot of times we blurthem together.
But, you know, there's the firstThing in any of our ability and
(14:44):
again, whether it's I'm acustomer at a brewery, if I'm
working at a brewery is feelingempowered to use my voice and
then having that support behindme and Knowing that if I do need
help from someone else, it'sgonna be there There's you
believe people basically ifsomeone says I need them to go
(15:07):
and I don't feel comfortable orI do feel comfortable to get rid
of them, but I've seen.
No, that's okay.
Not being like, well, are yousure?
Are you sure that they're thatbad?
You know, like sort of never the
Ryan (15:20):
case with somebody was having an issue.
Their word against a customer'sword is never going to weigh in
the favor of the customer.
If one of my Okay.
People is telling me thatthey're uncomfortable, then
we're gonna fix that right away,
Allison (15:32):
right?
Yeah.
I mean, it's kind of theopposite of the customer is
always right.
There's sort of you're sayingthe customer definitely
Ryan (15:40):
not always right.
Allison (15:43):
Yeah, but that's such an old school philosophy.
Like how
Ryan (15:47):
I hate it.
I hate it so
Allison (15:48):
much.
Why do you hate it?
Ryan (15:51):
Because they're not always right.
At least in my experience,they're frequently not right.
Allison (16:01):
Well, and I think a lot of times we as customers, I
think it's changing ourperspective of me as a customer
Being able to kind of dowhatever the fuck I want sort of
an entitlement piece But like wehave to shift our as a customer
I need to view serversdifferently and I need to view
the space differently like foryou.
(16:23):
What's your ideal?
customer coming into any brewery
Ryan (16:28):
The ideal customer is somebody that is coming to
respectfully have a good time.
They don't have these crazy highexpectations and standards that
are impossible to meet.
They treat people with respectand in turn, they want to be
treated with respect.
I mean, I think the idealcustomer is really a give and
(16:49):
take relationship.
You know, they want to betreated a certain way.
The staff wants to be treated acertain way.
So the people that are willingto come in and behave in that
way, though, I think those arethe ideal customers, you know,
they don't, they're notdemanding, they're not pushy,
they're not rude, they're notwasted.
(17:10):
That's the non ideal.
Customer, I think
Allison (17:14):
that versus that person, right?
Yeah,
Ryan (17:16):
exactly.
Yeah.
Allison (17:17):
Yeah.
It's like basically coming inwith intention of connection
that I want to
Music (17:22):
be
Allison (17:24):
connected to this space to this staff to this moment.
Not I have expectations thatneed to be fulfilled.
I feel like is the mind shift.
Ryan (17:35):
I always joke that I used to always joke.
It's still hard for me to get myhead out of the service industry
space, but I would always jokeand say that when we have
customers coming in, we likethose are our guests in our
home, you know?
So when I'm a customer, I kindof look at it the same way.
(17:57):
Like I'm the guest in somebody'shome.
Allison (18:00):
Yeah, I think it's, I love that messaging so much and
I feel like, you know, obviouslyat Breaking Science we're trying
to create safe space in theworld.
We want the whole world to bekind and lovely, but we can't
solve the whole world at once sopicking little micro communities
To help and assist in that, andI think we all can relate and
(18:23):
feel empowered to know thatwhenever you walk into a
restaurant, whether that's abrew pub or a fast food chain or
fine dining, whatever spectrumwe're on, if you have the
mentality of, this is, Me beingwelcomed in to something sacred
(18:44):
because a home is sacred, right?
A home is.
Absolutely.
Ryan (18:46):
Yeah,
Allison (18:47):
the safe loving space if we Give that mentality to
that place that place willtypically give that back to us
and that inherently createssafety for Everyone involved
which sounds way better than mebeing like Serve me.
Do as I say.
Give me what I
Ryan (19:07):
want immediately.
Allison (19:09):
Right, yeah.
I mean the word server isproblematic.
I think probably, maybe weshould think about changing that
word in general.
Ryan (19:19):
Yeah, I think you probably, you might be onto
something there.
Allison (19:22):
Yeah, yeah, it's important to level.
I mean, we're just saying likeleveling the playing field of
knowing that like you're givingsomething and that person's
giving you something right thatthere is both things like that
server does feed off of acustomer's energy and space and
what they're giving to them,which is important.
I just I love whenever we cangive people like as a listener
like this little thing you cando to
Ryan (19:44):
don't be a dick.
Allison (19:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a break cycles of, ofviolence.
Cause it's also, I think a lotof times people don't understand
how often servers or bartendersare experiencing harassment and
that could be in a micro way, itcould be in a very obvious way,
but I don't, I think it wouldbe, you would feel like a rare
(20:08):
day if you went through a shiftand someone didn't make some
comment, at least as a female inthe industry.
Great.
Ryan (20:16):
As a male as well, it can get pretty uncomfortable,
Allison (20:19):
right?
And like if you're experiencing,you know, 10 of those and you're
my 11th customer, I might not bethe nicest because I might be
kind of like,
Ryan (20:28):
yeah,
Allison (20:29):
fuck you.
I'm already know what's comingand I'm over it,
Ryan (20:33):
right?
Yeah,
Allison (20:35):
and I think that's the empathy piece.
Sometimes like if server isn'tmaybe on their game or whatever
it might be, it has nothing todo with you, but you do have the
power to turn it around.
Yeah.
Ryan (20:47):
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Again, I often say like, I feellike one of the things that
everybody should have to do intheir life, just spend six
months in the service industry.
That'd be eye opening foreverybody.
And I think that woulddefinitely foster a shift in the
way that people behave when theygo out to work.
(21:07):
Well,
Allison (21:09):
I mean, if we're using like the home analogy, just
think about if you don't havethe opportunity to be a server,
work in the industry, then justthink about how it feels when
you clean up the house and thenyour kids come in and they like
dump Legos everywhere and spillapplesauce all over the couch
and things are chaos.
Like how, how does that feel?
(21:29):
That's like, I just spent somuch time, just
Ryan (21:32):
fucking clean this mess.
Allison (21:34):
Like, how are we right back here?
You know, like how frustratingthat can feel.
You have that.
Or if you cook a lovely meal andno one says thank you or
whatever it might be.
Right.
Like we.
Would never treat the people orhopefully ideally we're not
treating the people in our livesI'd say never but ideally we're
(21:54):
treating those in our lives withrespect and love and If we don't
ever give servers that or if wedon't ever give the industry
that it's hard for the industryto To change people within it
need to feel like it's not thisexhausting, horrible place to
be.
And I just think the reason welose such wonderful voices in
(22:16):
the industry quickly is becauseof how hard it is from every
angle,
Ryan (22:22):
yeah.
Yeah.
That doesn't sound fun.
Allison (22:25):
No, I don't think it is.
I mean, one of our, our slogansis drink kindly, you know,
something that we write and saya lot in the brewery space.
What does that mean to you?
Like when you hear that phrase,what does that kind of mean for
you in this world?
Ryan (22:40):
Yeah, I think that kind of goes back to what you were
saying about coming into a spacewith intention.
You know, I think that prettymuch sums it up.
Really pretty well right theredrink kindly is, you know,
you're not coming into a spaceto drink and just get completely
wasted.
You're coming into a space tohave some drinks, have a good
(23:02):
time and make sure the peoplearound you have a good time as
well and are taken care oftotally different than coming
into binge drink and onto thenext space.
Allison (23:14):
Right.
If that's your intention.
You can still do that withkindness.
You know, we can still be like,I'm going to slam five beers and
move on.
Like, that's okay.
I mean, do you, but also havethe mindset going into that
moment of I'm going to do thisthe most kind way possible.
And I'm not just going to getmad when I get cut off because
(23:38):
obviously I got cut off.
Right.
I slammed five beers.
So
Ryan (23:42):
right.
Yeah.
Allison (23:43):
Right.
That's part of it.
Ryan (23:45):
Those two mindsets.
And to me anyway, I would, Ithink that drink kindly sits
better with one, one of thosetwo people than it does with the
other person.
Allison (23:55):
I mean, I'd love to find a way to bridge that gap, I
guess.
That's my, that's our goal overhere.
Any words of advice on that?
Ryan (24:03):
Just get everybody to grow up just a little bit.
Allison (24:05):
Oh yeah.
Maturity.
That's part of it.
Ryan (24:08):
Yeah, it's key.
I think
Allison (24:10):
it's hard.
Like, I think also withanything, this isn't about being
perfect at it.
Like you're not on both sides,whether we're in the industry or
if we're a customer interactingwith beer, we're not going to be
perfect.
And that's okay.
You know, it's just like what Isay in every training, it's,
you're not going to be perfectempathy right away.
You're not going to be perfect.
If you have always seen theservice industry is just
something that's there that youget to have access to and, you
(24:32):
know, Whatever, and now we'rechallenging you to think about
it as a connection point and toenter it with like softness and
kindness, that might be a bigshift, which is okay.
And be kind to yourself as youtry to approach it differently,
I think is also important.
Ryan (24:48):
I agree.
Allison (24:49):
So as you've kind of moved away from beer and into
helping with breaking silence,like what has kind of brought
you here and why do you want tobe a part of this organization?
Ryan (25:00):
Just being able to see the work that you do day in and day
out and to see it firsthand isit's inspiring and it
immediately knew that it wassomething I wanted to be a part
of.
But I feel like aside from that,as I mentioned before, like we
took a lot of pride in You know,making sure that our spaces were
(25:22):
inclusive and safe and diverse.
So it just seemed like kind of anatural fit.
It's a way for me to be able tocontinue to be a part of doing
something that I enjoy and beingable to do it and not have to be
in a bar or a restaurant.
Ownership, you know, it justmade sense.
(25:42):
I think that the work that youare doing is wildly important.
If I can be a part of that inany way, then sign me up.
Allison (25:51):
Yeah, I mean, we're very glad and lucky to have you.
So and yeah, I think if youcould change your guiding me and
you're helping me so much inthis side of our work, if you
could see a change in theindustry in the next couple
Year, what would that change be?
What would you want to see fromthe industry?
Ryan (26:10):
We've been talking about diversity and inclusion, and I
think that those two things,whether it's a brewery, a bar, a
restaurant, I think those two.
Ideas.
They're the cornerstone ofchange for this industry.
If you don't have those twothings, you're not going to be
(26:31):
successful in fostering anatmosphere of safety.
So if I were going to say thatthe two things that I would like
to see continue to change, itwould be that diversity and
inclusion from top to bottomownership.
Staffing patronage, everybodyneeds to feel safe.
And once everybody feels safe,then it's instantly a better
(26:54):
place.
And, you know, that message willresound with your staff and then
in turn will resound with yourcustomers and then your
community.
Allison (27:05):
Totally.
And that's the goal.
I mean, I guess when I thinkabout beer and breweries, that's
my ideal.
That's what I believe it is.
I believe it wants to be.
Ryan (27:16):
Yeah, people treat, in my experience, a brewery is
communal gathering place.
They're all over the community.
There's something for everybody,but it is a place that people
come to be with friends, meetnew people, celebrate community.
You know, it's all aboutcommunity, in my opinion.
(27:38):
For whatever my opinion isworth,
Allison (27:40):
I think it's worth a lot.
It's worth quite a bit in thisregard and in others.
But yeah, yeah, we have tofoster that community.
And I think as you're speakingabout diversity inclusion, it's
also just remembering that's anongoing thing.
You know, we can't just focus onit for a year and then we're
like, Oh, cool.
We've done it.
Ryan (27:58):
Yeah, I think a year is very short term time frame.
It definitely Yeah.
Thinking about things a year outis good, but like, I think in
this situation, looking atthings like five to ten years
out is, Like kind of wherepeople should be.
You can make some small changesin a year that will make you
(28:20):
feel like you're doing somethingsuccessfully when really you're
just kind of, you're really not.
If you can do things over thecourse of five to ten years and
can consistently make change,that's when Real change will
come about.
Allison (28:35):
Yeah, I love that.
Well for time's sake is thereanything else you want to add
Ryan or include in this
Ryan (28:45):
I Really appreciate you having me on like I mentioned
before this is talking aboutmyself and the things that I've
been involved in is like myleast favorite thing to do, but
I just Want to make sure youknow that we all appreciate the
hard work that you do every dayand whether it's in the podcast
or behind the scenes and in theorganization or out doing
(29:06):
trainings, you know, you're.
Doing a great job and just hopethat you're able to continue and
we're all able to benefit fromall of your hard work Going
forward.
Allison (29:17):
Thank you.
That's very sweet.
And as always, thank you forbeing a part and being here on
the pod today I know thatthere's a lot of good little
gems for people to take as wemove through Interacting with
people in the world and how wecan do it a little more kindly.
So thank you for that message
Ryan (29:32):
Yeah, don't be a dick That's the big takeaway from
everything.
Don't be a dick.
Be nice to servers and be niceto everyone.
Yeah.
Don't be a dick though.
Allison (29:42):
Don't be a dick.
That's the key quote on thisone.
Greatly love it, Sweet.
Thanks Ryan.
Thanks for being here.
Ryan (29:49):
Yeah, thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!