January 28, 2021 • 31 mins
This week we’re diving into the economics of breastfeeding, a little something we like to call supply and demand.
What most moms don’t know when they start their breastfeeding journey is that their bodies are already prepared to produce and supply enough breastmilk to meet their baby’s every nutritional need for the first several months of his or her life. It’s just one of the things that makes motherhood so completely awe-inspiring.
Of course, while that ability is deeply ingrained in our very being, our own thoughts and fears can make it easy to ignore our intuition.
- Am I making enough milk?
- Is he hungry?
- Am I overfeeding her?
- How do I regulate my supply?
- Am I doing this right?
These are just a few of the questions that every single mom asks herself. That second-guessing can lead even the most confident momma down the wrong path. So let’s talk about it! Our guest today is Ann Bennett, an Austin-based IBCLC with Nest Collaborative and breastfeeding encyclopedia who will most certainly put your mind at ease. Join us for today's show!
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Episode Transcript
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Amanda Gorman (00:00):
[Intro] Breastfeeding unplugged.
Welcome. Welcome. Welcome Mamasand mamas to be. A podcast
dedicated to helping momsnavigate their way through the
tricky world of breastfeeding.
Breastfeeding Unplugged.
(00:22):
Breastfeeding Unplugged.
Hello mamas and mamas-to-be.
Welcome to another episode ofBreastfeeding Unplugged. I am
your host Amanda Gorman of NestCollaborative. And this week,
we're diving into the economicsof breastfeeding, a little
something we like to call supplyand demand. What moms don't
(00:43):
know, usually is when they starttheir breastfeeding journey,
their bodies are alreadyprepared to produce and supply
enough breast milk to meet theirbaby's demand. Between mom and
baby is a secret physiologicalcode, where a mama's body
automatically responds to herbaby's cues for feeding. Even
before baby is born, her body ispreparing to do something
totally amazing (01:07):
produce everything that little one needs
to be completely and totallynourished for the first several
months of their life. It's justone of the things that makes
motherhood so completely aweinspiring. Of course, while that
connection is deeply ingrainedin our very being, our own
thoughts and fears can make iteasy to ignore our intuition. Am
(01:29):
I making enough milk? Is hehungry? Am I over feeding her?
How do I regulate my supply? AmI doing this right? These are
just few of the questions thatevery single mom asks herself,
that second guessing can leadeven the most confident mama
down the wrong path. So let'stalk about it.
(01:55):
With me today is Anne Bennett,Nest Collaborative's clinical
team leader and one of the mostprofoundly passionate lactation
consultants I've ever met, andis an international board
certified lactation consultantin private practice and has been
so for over 15 years. She's beenhelping moms and babies nurse
since 1998. Her own personalexperiences breastfeeding her
(02:20):
two boys led her to write herbook, The Breastfeeding Class
You Never Had, an everything youneed to know guide written for
new moms who want to get startedon their nursing journey strong.
And it's a pleasure to have youon our show today.
Ann Bennett (02:35):
I'm so excited.
I've wanted to do a podcastabout breastfeeding for forever
with you and the day is finallyhere. I'm not the most techie
person on the planet, so I wantto give a shout out to Tommy and
Chelsea behind the scenes whoare helping making this work.
Because if it was up to me, I'vegot like a coffee can and a
stick of dental floss. I mean, Ican't do it by myself. So yay
the village.
Amanda Gorman (02:56):
So happy you're here. Before we start talking
about milk supply, I'd love tohear a little bit about your
story as an IBCLC. And how youfound your calling as a
breastfeeding expert.
Ann Bennett (03:06):
That is a great question. So I think everybody
has a reason for being on theplanet. We're all like this
giant puzzle piece. And myreason is to help moms nurse
their babies. I mean, I knowstuff about this I never even
knew how I know it. When I firststarted doing this, I would look
it up in a book because I'mlike, how do I know that? I'd
look it up and at the answer andI was like, that's right. So I
looked up stuff, knowing it forabout a year in my first year
(03:28):
prior practice. And I'm like,okay, I really know this. But I
started when my first son wasborn. He was super fussy and
cried about 23 hours out of 24.
That's not exaggeration. And Iwent to a La Leche League
meeting. And I started going tothe meetings and getting
support. And then I startrealizing I was giving more
support at meetings than I wasgetting. And the leaders are
like, hey, you need to become aLa Leche League leader. So I
did. And then when my kidsstarted school, I sat the exam.
(03:50):
I have a background- a BA incommunications, so I had a lot
of the communications and HRskills that you need to be board
certified. And so here I am.
Amanda Gorman (04:05):
Awesome. Let's get started. I want to talk
about I guess first this selfproducing superfood that most
women know very little about.
Tell us about colostrum.
Ann Bennett (04:20):
I love colostrum, and people always give it a bad
rap. They say like ooh, all Ihave is colostrum. And I'm like
no colostrum, if you think aboutit, it's like primer for your
baby's intestines. So it coatsthe intestines as they are- as
they they're first nursing. Andthen it starts to protect
(04:42):
anything coming in. Just likethe paint primer protects the
color from underneath comingthrough. It kind of covers up-
your body starts makingcolostrum in your last
trimester. And this is kind of amiracle. So if you have an early
baby, you're already set. Yourbody's already do it and you're
ready to go.
Amanda Gorman (05:00):
That is great.
And what do they call it? Isn'tit like liquid gold?
Ann Bennett (05:04):
They call it liquid gold because there's 7 million
living cells in a third of ateaspoon of colostrum. I mean,
that is liquid gold. So youdon't need that much of it to
make it wonderful.
Amanda Gorman (05:17):
That's great.
Good for baby. First meal. Okay,so after that first day on the
job, what can most new momsexpect? They'll hear people say
that their milk should be comingin. But what really does that
mean?
Ann Bennett (05:34):
Yeah, I've actually changed my wording on that.
Instead of milk come in, I'm nowcalling it milk increase in
volume, because the colostrum isyour first milk. So it's not
like you have nothing and thenyou have everything. It's like,
you have the Ferrari, and thenyou decided to turn it on and
drive it around a little bit,you know, you still- you had it
from the get go. So the veryfirst signal for your body to
(05:58):
start making milk is when theplacenta detaches from the
uterus, then your body goes,okay, this thing is out, let's
start feeding 'em. And so that'show it starts in the beginning.
Some people's milk takes comesin in less than 24 hours. Some
people's milk comes takes sevendays to come in. The range is
from one to seven days. Andanything in there is normal.
Amanda Gorman (06:21):
Okay. All right.
Well, so how does a mom know?
You know, at which point if sheis actually making enough milk
for the baby?
Ann Bennett (06:29):
That is a great question. So the proof is what
goes in must come out. So on dayof life one, to day of life
five, the diapers are going totell you how much the baby is
getting. So it's not even dayone life one to five, it's
throughout your whole baby'swhole journey, their diapers are
going to tell you what theirintake is. So on day of life one
(06:51):
through five it's one wet diaperper day of life. So day of life
one, it's one wet diaper, day oflife two, it's two, day of life
three, it's three, day of lifefour, it's four, day of life
five it's five, and then a pooevery 24 hours. So one- so on
day five, they should be havingfive wet, and one poo in 24
hours. On day six, it's six wetand one poo, and now day seven
(07:12):
is when it's going to change. Byday seven, your milk should
really be in. So then yourbaby's going to make a jump and
they're gonna start having sixto 10 wet, and two to three poos
in 24 hours. So what comes inmust come out- kina life if you
went on one of those survivorshows and all you had to eat
today is like this littlegrasshopper so you don't get
voted off the island. You aren'thaving eight poos that day. Your
body is using every little bitof that grasshopper to help you
(07:35):
scale the next wall or dowhatever you need to do. The
same is true with your baby.
When they're getting enoughintake they're letting it go
because they don't need it thatmuch.
Amanda Gorman (07:44):
That totally makes sense. Thanks. Okay, so
next question here is, are thereany signs to know when baby is
full?
Ann Bennett (07:53):
A brand new baby can fool you. The- an early baby
is the 35 weekers. I call themthe great pretenders, because
they have fooled me before,because they're not really ready
to be born. And so they'resleepy. For a full term baby,
seeing if they're asleep afterthey nurse and you can lay them
down is a really good indicationthat they're doing well. A baby
(08:14):
who's hungry won't do that. Butthe whole picture is kind of
what you're looking at. Babiesnurse for all kinds of reasons,
only one of which is hunger. Sothe baby can nurse because
they're hot or cold oroverstimulated or under
stimulated or the doorbell rangand freaked them out. I mean all
kinds of reasons. So justbecause your baby wants to nurse
doesn't necessarily mean they'renot getting enough. So when
(08:37):
you're talking about fullness,you're looking at the whole
picture. How does your babylook? Do they have chubby
cheeks? Are they growing insize? Are they growing out of
their diaper size? How manydiapers are they having? Is
their diaper count six to 10 wetand at least two poos in a day?
And how is their growth at thepediatrician? So all of those
things give you an idea on is mybaby full, is my baby doing
(08:59):
well. Baby's needs to nurse arehigh when they're little,
especially when your milk iscoming in, because they're
pulling that really thickcolostrum out to try and bring
in the milk. And that's what wewant. Frequent milk removal
equals frequent milk production.
Amanda Gorman (09:17):
All right, I'm getting it. So are there ways
for a mom to make more milk orto make less milk if that's
necessary?
Ann Bennett (09:27):
Well, there are always ways to increase your
milk supply. But the bigquestion is, is your milk supply
really low? So a lot of peoplecompare their milk supply to
their neighbor and theirneighbor has this deep freeze
full of like 5 million bags ofmilk because her body thinks
she's nursing more than onebaby. So that's not a real
accurate measure. If your babyis not gaining well, and their
(09:51):
baby's not having diapers,increasing your milk supply, the
number one thing is milkremoval. There's also some
galactagogues which is just afancy word for herbal things
that you can take, you can alsoadd in some pumping. Again, more
milk removal means more milkproduction, it's a little bit of
reverse psychology. So you haveto open your mind for it. The
(10:12):
emptier your breasts are, thefaster you're making milk. The
emptier your breasts are, thefaster you make milk. The fuller
your breasts are the sloweryou're making. So when you're
nursing, nursing nursing, you'reactually making milk really
quickly. When you leave milksitting in there and you feel
really full, your bo- you'retelling your body, hey, no one's
(10:33):
eating at this restaurant, let'sjust close down for the next
day. So really not waiting untilyour breasts get super full, or
using your breasts fullness as aguide, especially after the
first couple of weeks isn'treally reliable. But there are
always ways to increase yourmilk supply, if that's what you
need to do, or decrease yourmilk supply if you've got enough
(10:54):
milk for a small industrializedcountry.
Amanda Gorman (10:59):
Oh, man. Okay, so I know many women who pump and
feed their baby a bottle, justso they can know exactly how
much baby's getting. Is thatwhat you really need to do?
Ann Bennett (11:11):
Well, the pump is not the baby, and the bottle is
not the breast. The bottle worksvery differently than the breast
and it's not a bad thing. It'sjust like, you know, the straw
works different than drinkingout of an open cup. So fun with
the bottle. I mean, you're,you're you're try this at home,
turn the bottle upside down,over the sink- not with breast
milk, just with water- and watchit drip. I mean, it drips, you
(11:33):
don't have to do anything tosuck on it to do anything. But
your breast doesn't do that.
Unless you're really engorged oryour milk is just coming in,
your breasts don't just dripmilk while they sit in your
baby's mouth. Your baby has tosuck for the milk to come out.
So, you know the same principleis a little bit confusing when
you're thinking this is how muchthey drink in the bottle, and
(11:55):
this is how much they drink atthe breast. Because it doesn't
work the same way you're- forhow much sucking equals how much
milk. You know, on a bottle,they can get their first suck
can be this huge bolus of milkin their mouth. But the breast
they're going to have about sixor seven sucks until the milk
starts flowing. And that's notthe breast is broken. That's
just how the breast works. Youknow, it's, it's kind of think
(12:17):
about if you have to pee. Whenyou sit down to pee, you don't
immediately pee, your body says,oh, we're pee. And that's how
the breast works is when yourbaby gets on, they start
sucking, they're like, oh, yeah,we're making milk. And then you
start to gradually make milk. Sohow a baby drinks the bottle,
and the delivery may make it-because it's really different
than how the breast works, it'snot really a good judge, because
(12:38):
it's like comparing, you know,picking wild flowers to picking
oranges. You're pickingsomething but they're really
different.
Amanda Gorman (12:47):
Now- but that really makes a lot of sense. So
when a mom is, you know,receiving cues, whether it's
from the baby, or from herbreasts feeling full, where
should she really be takingthose cues from first. From the
baby or from the way her breastsfeel?
Ann Bennett (13:07):
Well, we call it a dyad. And a dyad means a mom and
a baby and it's together. Soyou're looking at both of each
other. Because if you justlisten to one, you're not going
to be happy. If your baby'sscreaming bloody murder, and you
feel like your breasts feelempty, you can always put your
baby on because your breasts arenever really empty. Remember,
the emptier your breasts are thefaster you're making milk. If
(13:27):
you feel like Pamela Andersonmeets Dolly Parton and your
baby's totally asleep, you'regonna either have to hand
express a little, pump a littlebit with a hand pump, or wake
your baby up to take thepressure off. So you kind of
have to look at both people,you're not independent. Think of
it as being pregnant. You know,if you want to sleep and the
baby's kicking you, you're notreally sleeping. You have to
(13:49):
look at both of you and make adecision together. And sometimes
you're going to be looking atthe baby's cue. And sometimes
you're gonna be looking at yourqueue. You just have to be- you
think of yourselves as abreastfeeding team.
Amanda Gorman (14:01):
Totally. All right, well, these are such
great tips. We are going to takea short break, but we'll be back
with more from you and in just aminute. So hang tight.
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(15:10):
All right, we are back with AnnBennett IBCLC extraordinaire,
talking about everything a newmama needs to know about milk
supply. So now that we'vecovered the basics, let's jump
into some more specificquestions. What is foremilk? And
what is hindmilk?
Ann Bennett (15:30):
You can think of it as you're upstairs in a two
story house and you go on toturn the water. So you're
turning the water on to washyour hands. We all should be
washing our hands even more, soyou're washing your hands, the
water doesn't immediately gethot, it takes a little minute
for the water to get hot. And ifyou leave the hot water going
and you know, go chase yourchildren around if it's you,
(15:51):
Amanda, or, you know, answer thedoorbell or something and you
come back, the water is gonnaget cooler and cooler and
cooler. And that's how foremilkhindmilk works. The foremilk is
the very first milk and it's notbad. It's for quenching thirst.
So real research here. Theylooked at women who were in-
working outside in this study,and their body temperature was
(16:12):
hotter, and they pumped theirmilk. Their milk was thinner,
because their body knew theywere hotter. So it assumes their
baby's gonna be hotter. Sothey're making milk to quench
thirst. So the first milk isthirst quenching. How it changes
has a lot of- there are a lot offactors. One of them is time of
day. Your middle of the nightmilk is your highest fat calorie
(16:34):
milk in 24 hours. So when yourbaby gets on in the middle of
the night, they may only havetwo or three sucks before
they're getting into heavy creammeats guacamole milk. So it's
really high fat, and it doesn't-it also has things in it that
help your baby sleep. So thereare special hormones in the
middle of the night milk thathelp your baby go to sleep
(16:55):
faster, and also help you sleep-go to sleep better with the
prolactin oxytocin that yourbody is making making the milk.
So that milk is a differentcomposition than the milk you
make in the morning. It's adifferent composition than milk
you make in the afternoon. Italso changes in time of baby,
when your baby is really little,they're getting to the hindmilk
(17:17):
a lot quicker because thenursing session is a lot
shorter. How the baby sucks alsodetermines when you get to the
foremilk hindmilk. Your babygets on and they're just like
little light sucking. It's thinmilk to quen- quench thirst. If
they get on and they're likesuck suck suck suck, then it
gets higher fat [unknown] reallyquickly because your body thinks
ruh roh, this person wantsThanksgiving dinner. So it's
(17:39):
really about time of day, age ofbaby, and how your baby sucks
that makes the formilk hindmilkcombination. People who are
having a problem with theforemilk hindmilk, the easy sign
is every single diaper the babyhas is going to be green. And
I'm not talking green like, youknow, you have to hold it up to
(18:00):
the line and call seven peoplein to look at it to decide if
it's green. It's like someonetook an avocado and mushed it in
the diaper. I mean, it's likegreen apple, avocado green,
where you look at it, you'relike what? So that's a sign that
they may be getting too muchforemilk. And usually that goes
with a mom who's havingoversupply. So she has so much
milk that the baby gets on, andthey nurse, but there's so much
(18:23):
milk there that they just take alot of the first milk and then
they're full. That make sense?
Amanda Gorman (18:29):
Yeah, no, that's great. So, do- but both moms
have both for milk. I'm sorry.
All moms have both?
Ann Bennett (18:36):
All moms have both all times throughout the day,
all throughout the ages of theirbaby.
Amanda Gorman (18:41):
Got it. Okay. So next, I want to know, is it
normal for one breast to producemore milk than the other?
Ann Bennett (18:49):
This can happen. So no one's breasts are exactly the
same size. Just like yourkneecaps are not exactly the
same size. But you wouldn't knowthat unless you stared at your
kneecap 10 times a day for anhour looking at them. So usually
people don't notice that theyhave breast size difference. The
(19:10):
thing that can happen with one-one breast makes more than the
other, one breast is slightlybigger to start with than the
other or one breast is favoredmore than the other. The-
remember milk removal equalsmilk production. So a lot of
times when I see this, it's themom's dominant hand. So she may
be right handed, so she'snursing in her left more,
(19:32):
because she's doing things withher right hand. And so that left
side gets nursed on more withouteven her really realizing it.
Because she's cooking, tyingolder persons, you know, shoes,
reading older person book, youknow, holding her own book,
holding her own phone, you know,those are all things that you're
doing with your dominant hand.
So you tend to stay on thatother side a little bit longer.
(19:53):
And then over time becauseyou're nursing on that side
longer, that side ends upproducing more than the other.
Amanda Gorman (20:02):
Very interesting.
Question about twin and tripletmamas. How, what do they do?
They- do they need to doanything specific to increase
their supply? Does theirnatural- their milk supply
naturally differ because theirbody knows that they're feeding
more than one baby? How doesthat work?
Ann Bennett (20:20):
That's a great question. We have a lot of
people on our team of IBCLCs,who haven't had nurse twins. So
you know, if y'all haven'tthought about doing a show on
twins, I think that would begreat because they can really
speak to having to nurse twins.
But I've worked with a ton ofmoms who nurse twins. And the
remember we talked about at thebeginning when the placenta
detaches from the uterus, that'sthe body's first signal to make
milk. So nursing the twins rightaway, gives you that breast
(20:43):
stimulation on both sides, yougot the double signal, you got
the signal coming from theplacenta. Or if you have two
placentas, both placentasdetach, and then you have the
signal coming from the breaststimulation. And so your body's
like, let's do this. So for allmoms we recommend that they do
hand expression into a spoonafter each feed for the first
(21:07):
24-48 hours until their milkcomes in. And they can use that
spoon of milk just to slip downtheir baby's mouth. This is just
kind of your insurance policy.
And remember, milk removalequals milk production. So it
really helps to be removing andremoving and removing with the
twins. Having them nurse- if forany reason they aren't nursing
(21:29):
or they're early, you definitelywant to pump to get that
stimulation. Most women makemilk for about two babies. You
know, when your milk comes inyour body doesn't know if you
had one baby or two babies.
That's why you have thisengorgement period. So in the
case of a twin mom, you're justsustaining that. I've worked
with one woman who nursed fourbabies, and she was able to do
it. She had four placentas, fourbabies, you know, she nursed
(21:51):
them exclusively till they weresix months. She had a team of
people helping her. I mean, Iwould be over there and there
would be like a group of guyswho would just come over in the
afternoon, a group of dads, andvacuum. There's like seven
people and vacuum cleaners goingaround the house. I'm like what
is it? She's like, go to thevacuum. I mean, she did it
because she wasn't doinganything but nursing babies.
(22:11):
That's it. People brought herfood, people changed diapers,
people did laundry. So thebiggest thing for nursing
multiples is having support.
Amanda Gorman (22:22):
Obviously, that sounds wonderful. I can use the
vacuum team at my house.
Ann Bennett (22:26):
I know how- I'm gonna come over to your house
with the vacuum team. BYOB?
Amanda Gorman (22:32):
Oh, gosh, okay, so as baby starts to grow, will
moms need to do anythingdifferently or anything more to
produce more milk?
Ann Bennett (22:40):
No, that's actually a really big question we get a
lot is now that my baby's blahage, they need more milk. So
your milk changes in caloriecount based on the age of your
baby. And this, there's a lot ofresearch, I mean, 50 studies
that support this. And one ofthem is where they pump mom's
milk of premature infants. Sopeople who have 20, 25, 30
(23:02):
weekers, they pump their milkand they look at it. It has
special things to develop lungfunction that moms of full term
babies never have in their milk.
I mean, in the study, I thinkthey pumped 6,400 women's full
term milk, and no one hadanything in there to develop
lung function. Because your bodyunderstands how old your baby
is, and goes ru roh, this personcan't breathe, let's make
something to help their lungs.
(23:24):
So as your baby grows, the milkchanges. So you don't keep
making more and more and moreand more milk as your baby gets
bigger. And this is true of allmammals. I mean, you think about
elephants, your mama elephantdoesn't have like a huge,
ginormous breast because she'snursing the 1,500 pounds three
months old. She makes the sameamount of milk. It's just higher
(23:45):
in fat and calories.
Amanda Gorman (23:48):
That's an image that's gonna stay in my mind.
Ann Bennett (23:51):
Well, I mean think about an elephant
Amanda Gorman (23:53):
No, I love it.
Ann Bennett (23:54):
Think about killer whales on the bottom of the
ocean going I can't swim withyou girls, I'm nursing, he's as
big as I am. I mean, thosemammals nurse for, you know,
[unknown] [unknown] for likethree to five years, some of
them nurse after seven years. Sothey're not making this huge
amount of milk more and more andmore and more for the seven year
old elephant. It's just changesin calorie count.
Amanda Gorman (24:16):
Makes makes a lot of sense.
Ann Bennett (24:18):
Yeah.
Amanda Gorman (24:19):
Okay, so moms come to us worried about their
breast feeling deflated? Is thisa sign that milk is starting to
dry up?
Ann Bennett (24:26):
Yes, I get this a lot at six weeks. Six weeks is
the common call of like, mybreasts feel like they don't
have anything in them anymore.
And I'm like, the next thing Isay is, well, what's your baby's
diaper count? And they're like,Oh, well, she's had eight poos
today. And I don't even countthe wet anymore. I'm like, yeah,
so what comes in must come out.
The way to tell how much yourbaby is getting is by the
diapers, not how your breastsfeel. There are women who never
(24:48):
feel let down who have plenty ofmilk. There are women who their
let down it's like pins andneedles, and they have moderate
milk supply. So how your breastsfeel don't really necessitate,
how much milk is in there. Andyou see this a lot with people
who have a home birth. Withpeople who have a home birth,
they aren't separated from theirbabies because they're at home
(25:08):
and there's nowhere for them togo. And so they don't have this
2345 day of engorgement, theyhave about two hours of
encouragement because they'redoing frequent nursing. So I
think that that's a that's amyth. You know, that's kind of a
myth that's out there about mybreasts feel blah, therefore, I
(25:29):
have this much milk or my I'mpumping this much, or not this
much. That means I have thismuch milk. You know, the pump is
not the baby. So how much youcan pump does not mean that's
how much milk is in there. Andmy favorite story about that is
Lisa, Lisa had to do IVF and allkinds of things for her first
baby. She got pregnant with herfirst baby, when her first baby
was three months old, she gotpregnant with twins, naturally.
(25:52):
And she's nursing these babies,and she comes into my office.
And she's like, I have no milk.
And I look at them. And they'relike sumo wrestlers. I mean,
they're like, you could put onecloth on them and have them go
to the mat. I mean, their rollshave had babies. I'm like, are
you supplementing? She's like,no, this is not me. But I just
can't pump. I don't have anymilk in there. So we try, like
she bought four or fivedifferent pumps, which I do not
recommend, but she had fivedifferent pumps that we hooked
(26:14):
up and put on because shethought it was the pump. So she
just kept buying new pumps. Andwe pumped for like an hour, not
even a drop. And then we nursedthem, weighed, then nursed and
weighed them. They eachtransferred, you know, two to
half three ounces each. So shehad plenty of milk, she just
didn't respond to the pump. So Ipoint that as an illustration,
because so many people getdiscouraged, because they're not
(26:36):
able to pump. And the truth issome people just can't pump and
it doesn't mean you don't haveany milk. One of the people like
[unknown] on our team, when shewent back to work, she would
have to pump two pumps to gettwo ounces. And that's normal.
Totally normal.
Amanda Gorman (26:52):
Oh, good. Well, that's probably really
reassuring for a lot of our momslistening. So thank you.
Ann Bennett (26:57):
Yeah.
Amanda Gorman (26:58):
Okay, so moms that need to go back to work,
how do they know how much milkto leave with their daycare
providers?
Ann Bennett (27:04):
So a full feed is two ounces. So when I just had a
going back to mom call rightbefore this call. And the idea
is to force the cluster feed inthe morning. So let's say you
have to leave for work at nine.
So you would get up about 10minutes earlier than you would
before you need to get ready,nurse your baby then, then like
get ready, take a shower, put onyour clothes, nurse your baby
(27:27):
then, then eat your breakfast,get your bag ready, get your
baby's bag ready, sit down rightbefore you walk in the door and
nurse one more time. So when youget to the daycare, and this is
a good tip, when you get todaycare, if you can nurse at the
daycare, you're breathing in thegerms from the daycare and
you're making antibodies tothem. Mom, see, this is actually
a real study, I'm not evenmaking this up. Mom, if you've
(27:48):
nursed before or before drop offor after drop off or at lunch
compared to moms who are justgiving their pumped milk to the
daycare. The babies who arenursed after daycare, were 96%
less sick than the moms who arejust giving pumped milk because
the antibodies to the daycareare being breathed in by the mom
and they're made in your milkright there. So forcing the
(28:11):
cluster feed before you go,nursing at the daycare, and then
you need about two ounces everytwo to three hours. The idea of
forcing the cluster feed beforeyou leave is you leave your baby
stuffed like a tick. I mean, youcould press on them and like
milk shoots out and your breastfeel glorious. You could run
through the woods braless withwoodland creatures prancing
(28:33):
beside you and feel nothing. Sothat way you could go three to
four hours before your firstpump. Because it's stressful,
especially when you're goingback to work. And there's so
much to do right when you getthere to have to stop right away
and pump. So you have thecluster feed, you go to work,
you can go through hours, yourbaby can go three or four hours.
And then every two to threehours, you're leaving about two
(28:54):
ounces. And then this is thetricky part. The pickup, you
don't want your baby stuffedwith two ounces of pumped milk
when you get there. But on theother hand, you don't want your
caregiver to have screamingbloody murder baby waiting for
you. So the solution is tofreeze in two ounces and then
half an ounce and one ounce. Sothey can kind of have the chips
(29:14):
and salsa course right beforeyou get there. So they're
satisfied but not full. Becausewhen they see you, they're gonna
want to nurse and when you seethem, that's such a great
connection for our working momsto be able to come in and have
that reconnection time withtheir baby.
Amanda Gorman (29:29):
Great ideas.
You're the best. And every timeI talk to you, I really learn a
ton of new things. I know wecould go on all day, but
unfortunately, we don't have toomuch time left for this episode.
But it's really been such apleasure having you as our guest
and I definitely hope you'll beback again to talk about more
titillating topics. So for anyof our-
Ann Bennett (29:52):
I would love-
Amanda Gorman (29:52):
Yes, no, no, no, I just wanted to give you a
chance to let our listeners knowwhere they can find you if they
want to get in touch.
Ann Bennett (29:59):
Well, I was just gonna say I would love to come
back again because like I said,I think this is such a great
way. I love podcasts myself. AndI feel like when you're a new
mom and your baby's nursingfrequently, it's nice to listen
to something about nursing andjust to give you some extra info
to kind of make your day alittle bit peppier. And I hope
we've done that for ourlisteners. But for me, I'm
online at nestcollaborative.com.
You can make an appointment. I'mhere Monday, Tuesday,
(30:20):
Wednesdays, anyone on our teamcan help you if it's not a
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Ilove connecting with moms to do
a prenatal class. We offer thoseif you can't get to a preno
class. That's why I wrote mybook. It's called The
Breastfeeding Class You NeverHad. It's available online at
Amazon, or if you're local atBookPeople or wherever books are
sold.
Amanda Gorman (30:41):
Fantastic. Thank you so much for being such a
great resource for our moms.
What a wonderful chat today.
Ann Bennett (30:47):
Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having
me.
Amanda Gorman (30:50):
Of course. Well, mamas and mamas to be that is
our show for today. I hope youdid learn a few things about how
your body works, and moreimportantly, just how amazing it
really is. We know breastfeedingcan be hard and we appreciate
you trusting us to help youalong through your journey. As
always, we want to talk aboutthe topics that you're
(31:11):
interested in. So please drop usa line at
www.breastfeedingunplugged.comor send us a message on Facebook
or Instagram@breastfeedingunplugged. And
please don't be shy. Until nextweek it's me, Amanda, sending
you plenty of good vibes. Boobye. [Outro]
[Intro] Breastfeeding unplugged.
Welcome. Welcome. Welcome Mamasand mamas to be. A podcast
dedicated to helping momsnavigate their way through the
tricky world of breastfeeding.
Breastfeeding Unplugged.
(00:22):
Breastfeeding Unplugged.
Hello mamas and mamas-to-be.
Welcome to another episode ofBreastfeeding Unplugged. I am
your host Amanda Gorman of NestCollaborative. And this week,
we're diving into the economicsof breastfeeding, a little
something we like to call supplyand demand. What moms don't
(00:43):
know, usually is when they starttheir breastfeeding journey,
their bodies are alreadyprepared to produce and supply
enough breast milk to meet theirbaby's demand. Between mom and
baby is a secret physiologicalcode, where a mama's body
automatically responds to herbaby's cues for feeding. Even
before baby is born, her body ispreparing to do something
totally amazing (01:07):
produce everything that little one needs
to be completely and totallynourished for the first several
months of their life. It's justone of the things that makes
motherhood so completely aweinspiring. Of course, while that
connection is deeply ingrainedin our very being, our own
thoughts and fears can make iteasy to ignore our intuition. Am
(01:29):
I making enough milk? Is hehungry? Am I over feeding her?
How do I regulate my supply? AmI doing this right? These are
just few of the questions thatevery single mom asks herself,
that second guessing can leadeven the most confident mama
down the wrong path. So let'stalk about it.
(01:55):
With me today is Anne Bennett,Nest Collaborative's clinical
team leader and one of the mostprofoundly passionate lactation
consultants I've ever met, andis an international board
certified lactation consultantin private practice and has been
so for over 15 years. She's beenhelping moms and babies nurse
since 1998. Her own personalexperiences breastfeeding her
(02:20):
two boys led her to write herbook, The Breastfeeding Class
You Never Had, an everything youneed to know guide written for
new moms who want to get startedon their nursing journey strong.
And it's a pleasure to have youon our show today.
Ann Bennett (02:35):
I'm so excited.
I've wanted to do a podcastabout breastfeeding for forever
with you and the day is finallyhere. I'm not the most techie
person on the planet, so I wantto give a shout out to Tommy and
Chelsea behind the scenes whoare helping making this work.
Because if it was up to me, I'vegot like a coffee can and a
stick of dental floss. I mean, Ican't do it by myself. So yay
the village.
Amanda Gorman (02:56):
So happy you're here. Before we start talking
about milk supply, I'd love tohear a little bit about your
story as an IBCLC. And how youfound your calling as a
breastfeeding expert.
Ann Bennett (03:06):
That is a great question. So I think everybody
has a reason for being on theplanet. We're all like this
giant puzzle piece. And myreason is to help moms nurse
their babies. I mean, I knowstuff about this I never even
knew how I know it. When I firststarted doing this, I would look
it up in a book because I'mlike, how do I know that? I'd
look it up and at the answer andI was like, that's right. So I
looked up stuff, knowing it forabout a year in my first year
(03:28):
prior practice. And I'm like,okay, I really know this. But I
started when my first son wasborn. He was super fussy and
cried about 23 hours out of 24.
That's not exaggeration. And Iwent to a La Leche League
meeting. And I started going tothe meetings and getting
support. And then I startrealizing I was giving more
support at meetings than I wasgetting. And the leaders are
like, hey, you need to become aLa Leche League leader. So I
did. And then when my kidsstarted school, I sat the exam.
(03:50):
I have a background- a BA incommunications, so I had a lot
of the communications and HRskills that you need to be board
certified. And so here I am.
Amanda Gorman (04:05):
Awesome. Let's get started. I want to talk
about I guess first this selfproducing superfood that most
women know very little about.
Tell us about colostrum.
Ann Bennett (04:20):
I love colostrum, and people always give it a bad
rap. They say like ooh, all Ihave is colostrum. And I'm like
no colostrum, if you think aboutit, it's like primer for your
baby's intestines. So it coatsthe intestines as they are- as
they they're first nursing. Andthen it starts to protect
(04:42):
anything coming in. Just likethe paint primer protects the
color from underneath comingthrough. It kind of covers up-
your body starts makingcolostrum in your last
trimester. And this is kind of amiracle. So if you have an early
baby, you're already set. Yourbody's already do it and you're
ready to go.
Amanda Gorman (05:00):
That is great.
And what do they call it? Isn'tit like liquid gold?
Ann Bennett (05:04):
They call it liquid gold because there's 7 million
living cells in a third of ateaspoon of colostrum. I mean,
that is liquid gold. So youdon't need that much of it to
make it wonderful.
Amanda Gorman (05:17):
That's great.
Good for baby. First meal. Okay,so after that first day on the
job, what can most new momsexpect? They'll hear people say
that their milk should be comingin. But what really does that
mean?
Ann Bennett (05:34):
Yeah, I've actually changed my wording on that.
Instead of milk come in, I'm nowcalling it milk increase in
volume, because the colostrum isyour first milk. So it's not
like you have nothing and thenyou have everything. It's like,
you have the Ferrari, and thenyou decided to turn it on and
drive it around a little bit,you know, you still- you had it
from the get go. So the veryfirst signal for your body to
(05:58):
start making milk is when theplacenta detaches from the
uterus, then your body goes,okay, this thing is out, let's
start feeding 'em. And so that'show it starts in the beginning.
Some people's milk takes comesin in less than 24 hours. Some
people's milk comes takes sevendays to come in. The range is
from one to seven days. Andanything in there is normal.
Amanda Gorman (06:21):
Okay. All right.
Well, so how does a mom know?
You know, at which point if sheis actually making enough milk
for the baby?
Ann Bennett (06:29):
That is a great question. So the proof is what
goes in must come out. So on dayof life one, to day of life
five, the diapers are going totell you how much the baby is
getting. So it's not even dayone life one to five, it's
throughout your whole baby'swhole journey, their diapers are
going to tell you what theirintake is. So on day of life one
(06:51):
through five it's one wet diaperper day of life. So day of life
one, it's one wet diaper, day oflife two, it's two, day of life
three, it's three, day of lifefour, it's four, day of life
five it's five, and then a pooevery 24 hours. So one- so on
day five, they should be havingfive wet, and one poo in 24
hours. On day six, it's six wetand one poo, and now day seven
(07:12):
is when it's going to change. Byday seven, your milk should
really be in. So then yourbaby's going to make a jump and
they're gonna start having sixto 10 wet, and two to three poos
in 24 hours. So what comes inmust come out- kina life if you
went on one of those survivorshows and all you had to eat
today is like this littlegrasshopper so you don't get
voted off the island. You aren'thaving eight poos that day. Your
body is using every little bitof that grasshopper to help you
(07:35):
scale the next wall or dowhatever you need to do. The
same is true with your baby.
When they're getting enoughintake they're letting it go
because they don't need it thatmuch.
Amanda Gorman (07:44):
That totally makes sense. Thanks. Okay, so
next question here is, are thereany signs to know when baby is
full?
Ann Bennett (07:53):
A brand new baby can fool you. The- an early baby
is the 35 weekers. I call themthe great pretenders, because
they have fooled me before,because they're not really ready
to be born. And so they'resleepy. For a full term baby,
seeing if they're asleep afterthey nurse and you can lay them
down is a really good indicationthat they're doing well. A baby
(08:14):
who's hungry won't do that. Butthe whole picture is kind of
what you're looking at. Babiesnurse for all kinds of reasons,
only one of which is hunger. Sothe baby can nurse because
they're hot or cold oroverstimulated or under
stimulated or the doorbell rangand freaked them out. I mean all
kinds of reasons. So justbecause your baby wants to nurse
doesn't necessarily mean they'renot getting enough. So when
(08:37):
you're talking about fullness,you're looking at the whole
picture. How does your babylook? Do they have chubby
cheeks? Are they growing insize? Are they growing out of
their diaper size? How manydiapers are they having? Is
their diaper count six to 10 wetand at least two poos in a day?
And how is their growth at thepediatrician? So all of those
things give you an idea on is mybaby full, is my baby doing
(08:59):
well. Baby's needs to nurse arehigh when they're little,
especially when your milk iscoming in, because they're
pulling that really thickcolostrum out to try and bring
in the milk. And that's what wewant. Frequent milk removal
equals frequent milk production.
Amanda Gorman (09:17):
All right, I'm getting it. So are there ways
for a mom to make more milk orto make less milk if that's
necessary?
Ann Bennett (09:27):
Well, there are always ways to increase your
milk supply. But the bigquestion is, is your milk supply
really low? So a lot of peoplecompare their milk supply to
their neighbor and theirneighbor has this deep freeze
full of like 5 million bags ofmilk because her body thinks
she's nursing more than onebaby. So that's not a real
accurate measure. If your babyis not gaining well, and their
(09:51):
baby's not having diapers,increasing your milk supply, the
number one thing is milkremoval. There's also some
galactagogues which is just afancy word for herbal things
that you can take, you can alsoadd in some pumping. Again, more
milk removal means more milkproduction, it's a little bit of
reverse psychology. So you haveto open your mind for it. The
(10:12):
emptier your breasts are, thefaster you're making milk. The
emptier your breasts are, thefaster you make milk. The fuller
your breasts are the sloweryou're making. So when you're
nursing, nursing nursing, you'reactually making milk really
quickly. When you leave milksitting in there and you feel
really full, your bo- you'retelling your body, hey, no one's
(10:33):
eating at this restaurant, let'sjust close down for the next
day. So really not waiting untilyour breasts get super full, or
using your breasts fullness as aguide, especially after the
first couple of weeks isn'treally reliable. But there are
always ways to increase yourmilk supply, if that's what you
need to do, or decrease yourmilk supply if you've got enough
(10:54):
milk for a small industrializedcountry.
Amanda Gorman (10:59):
Oh, man. Okay, so I know many women who pump and
feed their baby a bottle, justso they can know exactly how
much baby's getting. Is thatwhat you really need to do?
Ann Bennett (11:11):
Well, the pump is not the baby, and the bottle is
not the breast. The bottle worksvery differently than the breast
and it's not a bad thing. It'sjust like, you know, the straw
works different than drinkingout of an open cup. So fun with
the bottle. I mean, you're,you're you're try this at home,
turn the bottle upside down,over the sink- not with breast
milk, just with water- and watchit drip. I mean, it drips, you
(11:33):
don't have to do anything tosuck on it to do anything. But
your breast doesn't do that.
Unless you're really engorged oryour milk is just coming in,
your breasts don't just dripmilk while they sit in your
baby's mouth. Your baby has tosuck for the milk to come out.
So, you know the same principleis a little bit confusing when
you're thinking this is how muchthey drink in the bottle, and
(11:55):
this is how much they drink atthe breast. Because it doesn't
work the same way you're- forhow much sucking equals how much
milk. You know, on a bottle,they can get their first suck
can be this huge bolus of milkin their mouth. But the breast
they're going to have about sixor seven sucks until the milk
starts flowing. And that's notthe breast is broken. That's
just how the breast works. Youknow, it's, it's kind of think
(12:17):
about if you have to pee. Whenyou sit down to pee, you don't
immediately pee, your body says,oh, we're pee. And that's how
the breast works is when yourbaby gets on, they start
sucking, they're like, oh, yeah,we're making milk. And then you
start to gradually make milk. Sohow a baby drinks the bottle,
and the delivery may make it-because it's really different
than how the breast works, it'snot really a good judge, because
(12:38):
it's like comparing, you know,picking wild flowers to picking
oranges. You're pickingsomething but they're really
different.
Amanda Gorman (12:47):
Now- but that really makes a lot of sense. So
when a mom is, you know,receiving cues, whether it's
from the baby, or from herbreasts feeling full, where
should she really be takingthose cues from first. From the
baby or from the way her breastsfeel?
Ann Bennett (13:07):
Well, we call it a dyad. And a dyad means a mom and
a baby and it's together. Soyou're looking at both of each
other. Because if you justlisten to one, you're not going
to be happy. If your baby'sscreaming bloody murder, and you
feel like your breasts feelempty, you can always put your
baby on because your breasts arenever really empty. Remember,
the emptier your breasts are thefaster you're making milk. If
(13:27):
you feel like Pamela Andersonmeets Dolly Parton and your
baby's totally asleep, you'regonna either have to hand
express a little, pump a littlebit with a hand pump, or wake
your baby up to take thepressure off. So you kind of
have to look at both people,you're not independent. Think of
it as being pregnant. You know,if you want to sleep and the
baby's kicking you, you're notreally sleeping. You have to
(13:49):
look at both of you and make adecision together. And sometimes
you're going to be looking atthe baby's cue. And sometimes
you're gonna be looking at yourqueue. You just have to be- you
think of yourselves as abreastfeeding team.
Amanda Gorman (14:01):
Totally. All right, well, these are such
great tips. We are going to takea short break, but we'll be back
with more from you and in just aminute. So hang tight.
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(15:10):
All right, we are back with AnnBennett IBCLC extraordinaire,
talking about everything a newmama needs to know about milk
supply. So now that we'vecovered the basics, let's jump
into some more specificquestions. What is foremilk? And
what is hindmilk?
Ann Bennett (15:30):
You can think of it as you're upstairs in a two
story house and you go on toturn the water. So you're
turning the water on to washyour hands. We all should be
washing our hands even more, soyou're washing your hands, the
water doesn't immediately gethot, it takes a little minute
for the water to get hot. And ifyou leave the hot water going
and you know, go chase yourchildren around if it's you,
(15:51):
Amanda, or, you know, answer thedoorbell or something and you
come back, the water is gonnaget cooler and cooler and
cooler. And that's how foremilkhindmilk works. The foremilk is
the very first milk and it's notbad. It's for quenching thirst.
So real research here. Theylooked at women who were in-
working outside in this study,and their body temperature was
(16:12):
hotter, and they pumped theirmilk. Their milk was thinner,
because their body knew theywere hotter. So it assumes their
baby's gonna be hotter. Sothey're making milk to quench
thirst. So the first milk isthirst quenching. How it changes
has a lot of- there are a lot offactors. One of them is time of
day. Your middle of the nightmilk is your highest fat calorie
(16:34):
milk in 24 hours. So when yourbaby gets on in the middle of
the night, they may only havetwo or three sucks before
they're getting into heavy creammeats guacamole milk. So it's
really high fat, and it doesn't-it also has things in it that
help your baby sleep. So thereare special hormones in the
middle of the night milk thathelp your baby go to sleep
(16:55):
faster, and also help you sleep-go to sleep better with the
prolactin oxytocin that yourbody is making making the milk.
So that milk is a differentcomposition than the milk you
make in the morning. It's adifferent composition than milk
you make in the afternoon. Italso changes in time of baby,
when your baby is really little,they're getting to the hindmilk
(17:17):
a lot quicker because thenursing session is a lot
shorter. How the baby sucks alsodetermines when you get to the
foremilk hindmilk. Your babygets on and they're just like
little light sucking. It's thinmilk to quen- quench thirst. If
they get on and they're likesuck suck suck suck, then it
gets higher fat [unknown] reallyquickly because your body thinks
ruh roh, this person wantsThanksgiving dinner. So it's
(17:39):
really about time of day, age ofbaby, and how your baby sucks
that makes the formilk hindmilkcombination. People who are
having a problem with theforemilk hindmilk, the easy sign
is every single diaper the babyhas is going to be green. And
I'm not talking green like, youknow, you have to hold it up to
(18:00):
the line and call seven peoplein to look at it to decide if
it's green. It's like someonetook an avocado and mushed it in
the diaper. I mean, it's likegreen apple, avocado green,
where you look at it, you'relike what? So that's a sign that
they may be getting too muchforemilk. And usually that goes
with a mom who's havingoversupply. So she has so much
milk that the baby gets on, andthey nurse, but there's so much
(18:23):
milk there that they just take alot of the first milk and then
they're full. That make sense?
Amanda Gorman (18:29):
Yeah, no, that's great. So, do- but both moms
have both for milk. I'm sorry.
All moms have both?
Ann Bennett (18:36):
All moms have both all times throughout the day,
all throughout the ages of theirbaby.
Amanda Gorman (18:41):
Got it. Okay. So next, I want to know, is it
normal for one breast to producemore milk than the other?
Ann Bennett (18:49):
This can happen. So no one's breasts are exactly the
same size. Just like yourkneecaps are not exactly the
same size. But you wouldn't knowthat unless you stared at your
kneecap 10 times a day for anhour looking at them. So usually
people don't notice that theyhave breast size difference. The
(19:10):
thing that can happen with one-one breast makes more than the
other, one breast is slightlybigger to start with than the
other or one breast is favoredmore than the other. The-
remember milk removal equalsmilk production. So a lot of
times when I see this, it's themom's dominant hand. So she may
be right handed, so she'snursing in her left more,
(19:32):
because she's doing things withher right hand. And so that left
side gets nursed on more withouteven her really realizing it.
Because she's cooking, tyingolder persons, you know, shoes,
reading older person book, youknow, holding her own book,
holding her own phone, you know,those are all things that you're
doing with your dominant hand.
So you tend to stay on thatother side a little bit longer.
(19:53):
And then over time becauseyou're nursing on that side
longer, that side ends upproducing more than the other.
Amanda Gorman (20:02):
Very interesting.
Question about twin and tripletmamas. How, what do they do?
They- do they need to doanything specific to increase
their supply? Does theirnatural- their milk supply
naturally differ because theirbody knows that they're feeding
more than one baby? How doesthat work?
Ann Bennett (20:20):
That's a great question. We have a lot of
people on our team of IBCLCs,who haven't had nurse twins. So
you know, if y'all haven'tthought about doing a show on
twins, I think that would begreat because they can really
speak to having to nurse twins.
But I've worked with a ton ofmoms who nurse twins. And the
remember we talked about at thebeginning when the placenta
detaches from the uterus, that'sthe body's first signal to make
milk. So nursing the twins rightaway, gives you that breast
(20:43):
stimulation on both sides, yougot the double signal, you got
the signal coming from theplacenta. Or if you have two
placentas, both placentasdetach, and then you have the
signal coming from the breaststimulation. And so your body's
like, let's do this. So for allmoms we recommend that they do
hand expression into a spoonafter each feed for the first
(21:07):
24-48 hours until their milkcomes in. And they can use that
spoon of milk just to slip downtheir baby's mouth. This is just
kind of your insurance policy.
And remember, milk removalequals milk production. So it
really helps to be removing andremoving and removing with the
twins. Having them nurse- if forany reason they aren't nursing
(21:29):
or they're early, you definitelywant to pump to get that
stimulation. Most women makemilk for about two babies. You
know, when your milk comes inyour body doesn't know if you
had one baby or two babies.
That's why you have thisengorgement period. So in the
case of a twin mom, you're justsustaining that. I've worked
with one woman who nursed fourbabies, and she was able to do
it. She had four placentas, fourbabies, you know, she nursed
(21:51):
them exclusively till they weresix months. She had a team of
people helping her. I mean, Iwould be over there and there
would be like a group of guyswho would just come over in the
afternoon, a group of dads, andvacuum. There's like seven
people and vacuum cleaners goingaround the house. I'm like what
is it? She's like, go to thevacuum. I mean, she did it
because she wasn't doinganything but nursing babies.
(22:11):
That's it. People brought herfood, people changed diapers,
people did laundry. So thebiggest thing for nursing
multiples is having support.
Amanda Gorman (22:22):
Obviously, that sounds wonderful. I can use the
vacuum team at my house.
Ann Bennett (22:26):
I know how- I'm gonna come over to your house
with the vacuum team. BYOB?
Amanda Gorman (22:32):
Oh, gosh, okay, so as baby starts to grow, will
moms need to do anythingdifferently or anything more to
produce more milk?
Ann Bennett (22:40):
No, that's actually a really big question we get a
lot is now that my baby's blahage, they need more milk. So
your milk changes in caloriecount based on the age of your
baby. And this, there's a lot ofresearch, I mean, 50 studies
that support this. And one ofthem is where they pump mom's
milk of premature infants. Sopeople who have 20, 25, 30
(23:02):
weekers, they pump their milkand they look at it. It has
special things to develop lungfunction that moms of full term
babies never have in their milk.
I mean, in the study, I thinkthey pumped 6,400 women's full
term milk, and no one hadanything in there to develop
lung function. Because your bodyunderstands how old your baby
is, and goes ru roh, this personcan't breathe, let's make
something to help their lungs.
(23:24):
So as your baby grows, the milkchanges. So you don't keep
making more and more and moreand more milk as your baby gets
bigger. And this is true of allmammals. I mean, you think about
elephants, your mama elephantdoesn't have like a huge,
ginormous breast because she'snursing the 1,500 pounds three
months old. She makes the sameamount of milk. It's just higher
(23:45):
in fat and calories.
Amanda Gorman (23:48):
That's an image that's gonna stay in my mind.
Ann Bennett (23:51):
Well, I mean think about an elephant
Amanda Gorman (23:53):
No, I love it.
Ann Bennett (23:54):
Think about killer whales on the bottom of the
ocean going I can't swim withyou girls, I'm nursing, he's as
big as I am. I mean, thosemammals nurse for, you know,
[unknown] [unknown] for likethree to five years, some of
them nurse after seven years. Sothey're not making this huge
amount of milk more and more andmore and more for the seven year
old elephant. It's just changesin calorie count.
Amanda Gorman (24:16):
Makes makes a lot of sense.
Ann Bennett (24:18):
Yeah.
Amanda Gorman (24:19):
Okay, so moms come to us worried about their
breast feeling deflated? Is thisa sign that milk is starting to
dry up?
Ann Bennett (24:26):
Yes, I get this a lot at six weeks. Six weeks is
the common call of like, mybreasts feel like they don't
have anything in them anymore.
And I'm like, the next thing Isay is, well, what's your baby's
diaper count? And they're like,Oh, well, she's had eight poos
today. And I don't even countthe wet anymore. I'm like, yeah,
so what comes in must come out.
The way to tell how much yourbaby is getting is by the
diapers, not how your breastsfeel. There are women who never
(24:48):
feel let down who have plenty ofmilk. There are women who their
let down it's like pins andneedles, and they have moderate
milk supply. So how your breastsfeel don't really necessitate,
how much milk is in there. Andyou see this a lot with people
who have a home birth. Withpeople who have a home birth,
they aren't separated from theirbabies because they're at home
(25:08):
and there's nowhere for them togo. And so they don't have this
2345 day of engorgement, theyhave about two hours of
encouragement because they'redoing frequent nursing. So I
think that that's a that's amyth. You know, that's kind of a
myth that's out there about mybreasts feel blah, therefore, I
(25:29):
have this much milk or my I'mpumping this much, or not this
much. That means I have thismuch milk. You know, the pump is
not the baby. So how much youcan pump does not mean that's
how much milk is in there. Andmy favorite story about that is
Lisa, Lisa had to do IVF and allkinds of things for her first
baby. She got pregnant with herfirst baby, when her first baby
was three months old, she gotpregnant with twins, naturally.
(25:52):
And she's nursing these babies,and she comes into my office.
And she's like, I have no milk.
And I look at them. And they'relike sumo wrestlers. I mean,
they're like, you could put onecloth on them and have them go
to the mat. I mean, their rollshave had babies. I'm like, are
you supplementing? She's like,no, this is not me. But I just
can't pump. I don't have anymilk in there. So we try, like
she bought four or fivedifferent pumps, which I do not
recommend, but she had fivedifferent pumps that we hooked
(26:14):
up and put on because shethought it was the pump. So she
just kept buying new pumps. Andwe pumped for like an hour, not
even a drop. And then we nursedthem, weighed, then nursed and
weighed them. They eachtransferred, you know, two to
half three ounces each. So shehad plenty of milk, she just
didn't respond to the pump. So Ipoint that as an illustration,
because so many people getdiscouraged, because they're not
(26:36):
able to pump. And the truth issome people just can't pump and
it doesn't mean you don't haveany milk. One of the people like
[unknown] on our team, when shewent back to work, she would
have to pump two pumps to gettwo ounces. And that's normal.
Totally normal.
Amanda Gorman (26:52):
Oh, good. Well, that's probably really
reassuring for a lot of our momslistening. So thank you.
Ann Bennett (26:57):
Yeah.
Amanda Gorman (26:58):
Okay, so moms that need to go back to work,
how do they know how much milkto leave with their daycare
providers?
Ann Bennett (27:04):
So a full feed is two ounces. So when I just had a
going back to mom call rightbefore this call. And the idea
is to force the cluster feed inthe morning. So let's say you
have to leave for work at nine.
So you would get up about 10minutes earlier than you would
before you need to get ready,nurse your baby then, then like
get ready, take a shower, put onyour clothes, nurse your baby
(27:27):
then, then eat your breakfast,get your bag ready, get your
baby's bag ready, sit down rightbefore you walk in the door and
nurse one more time. So when youget to the daycare, and this is
a good tip, when you get todaycare, if you can nurse at the
daycare, you're breathing in thegerms from the daycare and
you're making antibodies tothem. Mom, see, this is actually
a real study, I'm not evenmaking this up. Mom, if you've
(27:48):
nursed before or before drop offor after drop off or at lunch
compared to moms who are justgiving their pumped milk to the
daycare. The babies who arenursed after daycare, were 96%
less sick than the moms who arejust giving pumped milk because
the antibodies to the daycareare being breathed in by the mom
and they're made in your milkright there. So forcing the
(28:11):
cluster feed before you go,nursing at the daycare, and then
you need about two ounces everytwo to three hours. The idea of
forcing the cluster feed beforeyou leave is you leave your baby
stuffed like a tick. I mean, youcould press on them and like
milk shoots out and your breastfeel glorious. You could run
through the woods braless withwoodland creatures prancing
(28:33):
beside you and feel nothing. Sothat way you could go three to
four hours before your firstpump. Because it's stressful,
especially when you're goingback to work. And there's so
much to do right when you getthere to have to stop right away
and pump. So you have thecluster feed, you go to work,
you can go through hours, yourbaby can go three or four hours.
And then every two to threehours, you're leaving about two
(28:54):
ounces. And then this is thetricky part. The pickup, you
don't want your baby stuffedwith two ounces of pumped milk
when you get there. But on theother hand, you don't want your
caregiver to have screamingbloody murder baby waiting for
you. So the solution is tofreeze in two ounces and then
half an ounce and one ounce. Sothey can kind of have the chips
(29:14):
and salsa course right beforeyou get there. So they're
satisfied but not full. Becausewhen they see you, they're gonna
want to nurse and when you seethem, that's such a great
connection for our working momsto be able to come in and have
that reconnection time withtheir baby.
Amanda Gorman (29:29):
Great ideas.
You're the best. And every timeI talk to you, I really learn a
ton of new things. I know wecould go on all day, but
unfortunately, we don't have toomuch time left for this episode.
But it's really been such apleasure having you as our guest
and I definitely hope you'll beback again to talk about more
titillating topics. So for anyof our-
Ann Bennett (29:52):
I would love-
Amanda Gorman (29:52):
Yes, no, no, no, I just wanted to give you a
chance to let our listeners knowwhere they can find you if they
want to get in touch.
Ann Bennett (29:59):
Well, I was just gonna say I would love to come
back again because like I said,I think this is such a great
way. I love podcasts myself. AndI feel like when you're a new
mom and your baby's nursingfrequently, it's nice to listen
to something about nursing andjust to give you some extra info
to kind of make your day alittle bit peppier. And I hope
we've done that for ourlisteners. But for me, I'm
online at nestcollaborative.com.
You can make an appointment. I'mhere Monday, Tuesday,
(30:20):
Wednesdays, anyone on our teamcan help you if it's not a
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Ilove connecting with moms to do
a prenatal class. We offer thoseif you can't get to a preno
class. That's why I wrote mybook. It's called The
Breastfeeding Class You NeverHad. It's available online at
Amazon, or if you're local atBookPeople or wherever books are
sold.
Amanda Gorman (30:41):
Fantastic. Thank you so much for being such a
great resource for our moms.
What a wonderful chat today.
Ann Bennett (30:47):
Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having
me.
Amanda Gorman (30:50):
Of course. Well, mamas and mamas to be that is
our show for today. I hope youdid learn a few things about how
your body works, and moreimportantly, just how amazing it
really is. We know breastfeedingcan be hard and we appreciate
you trusting us to help youalong through your journey. As
always, we want to talk aboutthe topics that you're
(31:11):
interested in. So please drop usa line at
www.breastfeedingunplugged.comor send us a message on Facebook
or Instagram@breastfeedingunplugged. And
please don't be shy. Until nextweek it's me, Amanda, sending
you plenty of good vibes. Boobye. [Outro]
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