Diversity in Lactation Support

On today’s show, we are talking about an issue that’s been in the spotlight quite a bit lately. You might have heard about the Black Maternal Health Momnibus Act of 2021, a collection of 12 bills introduced by several members of Congress and the Black Maternal Health Caucus to comprehensively address every dimension of the black maternal health crisis in America. 

Here’s a scary fact. We live in the richest country on the globe, yet the U.S. has the highest rate of maternal deaths in the world. Black moms are three to four times more likely to die in childbirth than their white counterparts. And for black women, access to resources, education, and maternal healthcare isn’t even close to where it should be. Now, of course, this is a breastfeeding podcast, which occupies just one tiny aspect of maternal healthcare. But we wanted to make sure we addressed the issues from our perspective, because even from our little corner of the world, we know that black women are not represented or supported the way that they should be. So let’s find out why.

Our guest today is Harlem-based IBCLC LaShanda Dandrich who knows a thing or two about supporting black families on their breastfeeding journeys.  In addition to her work with Nest Collaborative, LaShanda also owns the Uptown Village Cooperative, a maternal health group that provides education and support around gentle birthing practices in Upper Manhattan and the Bronx, the Chocolate Milk Cafe, a lactation support group for African American families, and Lactation Learning Collective, a collective of lactation professionals mentoring aspiring IBCLC’s.

Episode Transcript

Amanda Gorman (00:00):
[Intro] Breastfeeding Unplugged.
Welcome. Welcome. Welcome mamasand mamas to be. A podcast
dedicated to helping momsnavigate their way through the
tricky world of breastfeeding.
Breastfeeding Unplugged.

(00:22):
Breastfeeding Unplugged. Hey,mamas and mamas to be. It's
great to have you with us onBreastfeeding Unplugged. On
today's show, we're talkingabout an issue that's been in
the spotlight quite a bitlately. The black maternal
health crisis in America. Here'sa scary fact, we live in the

(00:43):
richest country on the globe.
Yet, the US has the highest rateof maternal deaths in the world.
Black moms are three to fourtimes more likely to die in
childbirth than their whitecounterparts. And for black
women, access to resources,education, and maternal health
care isn't even close to whereit should be. Now, of course,
this is a breastfeeding podcastwhich occupies just one tiny

(01:05):
aspect of maternal health care.
But we wanted to make sure weaddress the issues from our
perspective, because even fromour little corner of the world,
we know that black women are notrepresented or supported the way
they should be. So let's findout why. Our guest today is
Harlem based IBCLC LashondaDandridge who knows a thing or

(01:27):
two or two about supportingblack families on their
breastfeeding journeys after thebirth of her own daughter, Ava
in 2009. Her passion forbreastfeeding and helping
mothers and families in thepostpartum period became a full
time career. Lashonda trained asa postpartum doula while
pursuing her IBCLC credential.
And to this day, she lovesworking with families of all
diverse cultural socio economicbackgrounds throughout New York

(01:50):
City. In addition to her workwith Nest Collaborative,
Lashonda also owns the UptownVillage Cooperative. A maternal
health group, providingeducation and support around
gentle birthing practices inUpper Manhattan and the Bronx.
She also does the Chocolate MilkCafe, a lactation support group
for African American familiesand Lactation Learning

(02:12):
Collective, a collective oflactation professionals
mentoring aspiring IBCLCs.
Lashonda, welcome to the show.
It's a pleasure to have you withus today.

LaShanda Dandrich (02:23):
Hi, Amanda, how are you?

Amanda Gorman (02:26):
I am good. Thank you for asking. Before we get
started, I would love to hearjust a bit more about you and
how you became a lactationconsultant. What about becoming
a mom ignited this passion tostart working in breastfeeding
sport?

LaShanda Dandrich (02:42):
Yeah, so I think like most of us who become
moms, it's something that, youknow, we really don't think
about before, not all of us,some of us, you know, that's the
thing. But I think, you know,growing up and you always think
like, oh, you know, maybe I'llhave a baby one day and being a
mom in that way. But we don'tthink about like, the nitty

(03:05):
gritty stuff of it. Right. Sowhen I got pregnant, and it was
just natural for me to thinkabout feeding my child from my
breasts, that wasn't the thing.
I saw people breastfeeding, itwas a part of pregnancy for me.
So again, it wasn't somethingthat I actually thought that
there was this whole worldabout. So when I had Ava and I

(03:28):
was in the hospital and got thehelp or lack of help, as you
know, becoming an IBCLC Ireflected back on and then
feeding her our feeding journeywas our journey, and I loved it.
And then talking to people aboutbreastfeeding, right. And just

(03:51):
'cause as you're in it, and youyou know, just like any thing in
your life when you're exposed toit, and you start asking
questions about it, and it juststarted to become like a wow
moment. Like, why don't webreastfeed more in this country?
And then it was broken down intomore so of well, why don't black

(04:11):
women breastfeed? At least itwas presented to me that way,
right? And so then you go backand asking friends, and did you
breast- because again, we didnot something that we really
talked about. So then it waslike, okay, did you breastfeed
and you didn't breastfeed andwhy and that started to become,
you know, the Horace. It startedto become, I started to become

(04:34):
more aware of it. And it justled me down this path of not so
much wanting to push people likeyou must breastfeed. But the
overall theme that the storiesthat I was getting, is that,
again, no one really talks aboutit and then there wasn't really
any support or education aroundit. There was no one to really

(04:57):
go to and ask is this definitelythis is what we do, or don't do.
So I just thought, like, Iwanted to have people, and much
like, my personality and thecareer I was in before. I just
always want people to have theoptions and educate themselves.
Because when you're educated,then you're able to make a
decision. If you don't know,then are you really making a

(05:18):
decision? Right? So I just gotto talking about it. And my
whole thing about mo- parentingmotherhood parenthood was just
have your own story, here'sinformation, and you get to
choose and have your own story.
That's how we feel empowered asan individual. So that's mainly

(05:38):
what I do as a lactationconsultant. You know, in many I
tell a lot of my clients, like,my goal isn't to have you,
quote, unquote, breastfeed, mygoal is to provide you evidence
based information, and for youto help to get to whatever goal
you want to do. And that's justwhat I felt like I wanted to
bring to people, especiallypeop-, black mothers, in the

(05:59):
community.

Amanda Gorman (06:01):
Absolutely.
Education is absolutelypowerful. So thank you so much,
I enjoyed hearing that story.
And it, it certainly is gonnaresonate with so many of our
listeners out there. Let us jumpright in, because our topic
today is really hugelyimportant. Both for women of
color and all of our listeners.
So let's get into it. Blackwomen statistically breastfeed

(06:26):
at lower rates than white women,this has been going on for
decades. And you touched alittle bit upon it. But why does
this disparity still exist now?

LaShanda Dandrich (06:41):
That's a loaded question. Right? We know
being in the field, in themedical field, right? And, and
now like, and more specifically,like you said, this corner of
maternal health, that there areso many layers and levels to
just like, putting a baby on thebreast. Right. So, the

(07:02):
disparity, in general exists,mainly because there's no
education for families, but ahuge lack of education for
medical professional. Right. Solike, on the ground, I call it
like, boots on the ground, rightin the field doing the work
right, with families, one onone. But if we had, so if we

(07:25):
were able to turn it around,where medical professionals were
actually educated,appropriately, correctly on
human milk, and how to get theimportance or extreme importance
of getting human milk to babies,it would help, right that on
that level there. And then evenin the medical field, you have

(07:46):
people who are promoting it anddoing it, but they're not
promoting it to women of coloror black women. And why is that?
And that really breaks down to Iknow, it makes a lot of people
uncomfortable. And a lot ofpeople say, like, like you
mentioned in the intro that youknow, this is a very hot topic.
And it seems like calling itracism is a cop out. But it's

(08:06):
not. Like when you really lookat, you know, if there was any
other disease or stuff thatthere's something going around
where you're finding that, hey,a lot of people aren't doing
that there are a lot of peoplewho aren't making milk or this
especially in a particularcommunity that would spark you
to research that and figure outwhy because we know it's a

(08:26):
health benefit. So why isn't ithappening in this particular
community, right? That justsparked some, a need to figure
out why. But when you go downthat road and figure out why
it's not anything biological,it's not something that's
happening in, you know, blackbodies, that it's preventing
them from making milk andfeeding their children. When you

(08:48):
look at it, it's the support,and again, the education. And
you have this old schoolmentality that floats around in
the medical field. Again, it'snot evidence base. It's just
been passed down, right throughthe medical industry, that black

(09:08):
women don't breastfeed. Butagain, nobody's asking, Why
don't they breastfeed, right?
And again, when we look at that,it's because there's a lack of
education, the lack of support,right? So that's just, again,
there's so many levels to it,but that's a tip of the iceberg.
And really a big, big component,because if that information is

(09:28):
getting passed down, again, notevidence base, it's just being
passed down through the quoteunquote, education that these
medical professionals aregetting, then that trickles down
into you know, who thepediatrician, the, the nurses at
the bedside, the you know, the,the OB is like everyone so no

(09:50):
one's ever asking you becausethey truly believe that this is
something that you're not goingto do you don't do, then you're
never going to get theeducation, you're never going to
get the support, and then itdoesn't seem like it's something
that's really important to thosewhite coats that the community,
you know, treasures, those, thatinformation coming from them,

(10:11):
they're supposed to be given methe most important information
that's good for me and my bodyand my baby. And if they're not
invested in it, so it's justgoing to trickle into the
community, as this is notsomething that I really need to
do or something that doesn'treally mean anything versus
formula feeding my baby, right?
You have that there you have theother level of again, this

(10:35):
trickle down of not evidencebased information, but within
the community. You don't dothat. And we don't do that.
Right? Because that's what blackwomen used to do for the slave
owner's baby. Right. So itbecame something that that's
not, why would you want to dothat, if that's the negative
connotation that is attached toit, right? And then that plays

(10:58):
out through within thecommunity. Right. So again,
you're you're having it hit fromall different areas, and then we
are still with this disparitythat, you know, black women
aren't breastfeeding. So again,and if that's the main, the main
message out there, and yougrowing up as a child, you know,

(11:22):
thinking about having a baby oneday, and you're hearing that
black woman don't breastfeed,and you're never seeing it, then
what is going to be the resultof that. So then you have that,
you know, again, just kind oftrickling down through
generations, literally.

Amanda Gorman (11:38):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And I think your your data on Imean, a it is multivariate,
right, there's multiple reasonswhy it's not happening. But as a
clinician, you know, I cancertainly, you know, your I
think you are accurate, and youknow, at least you know, I'm a
nurse and at nursing school, wedid learn about what what we
call clinically as implicit biasis, you know, whether knowingly

(12:00):
or unknowingly, a clinician isputting their own bias into
their practice. And you'reabsolutely right, the standard
of practice shouldn't differ.
Race to race. And we know Imean, the research says women
will breastfeed more if they getbetter education prenatally, we

(12:22):
know that and that cascade, justlike you talked about that
cascade needs to start with theprovider. And at even in this
collaborative, our preliminaryresearch with our very first
users was how much does thedoctor's word impact their
decisions? And overwhelmingly, Ithink it was 80 plus percent of

(12:42):
the women we interviewed said,"Well, yeah, if my doctor told m
to do it, I do it." And so we'e really learned how valuable t
e provider's word and guidance i. So if, if they're not starti
g this cascade for black wome, they're having a profound effe
t o

LaShanda Dandrich (13:00):
How much your word as the, and again, this
just goes back to birthing orbeing in the hospital for
anything and hospitals, again,you've worked in hospitals, I've
worked in hospitals, you know,like those surveys or
questionnaires about patientsatisfaction. I really value
because, you know, the hospitalwants to know and be able to,

(13:21):
you know, have a bettercustomer, right? Retain
customer, but also because theyknow that the word that that
medical professional says tothat patient, you know, if we're
talking about birthing people,right? How much of an impact
that has going forward. If youtalk to anyone you know, I don't

(13:42):
know about you, when you tellpeople what you do, when I tell
people what I do, no matter howold they are, I always get them
reverting to their birthingexperience and their feeding
experience. You know, this isgrandma's. This is great
grandma's like, it's soimpactful. And they remember
that nurse by the bedside orthat doctor that came in what

(14:04):
they said, I don't remember mynurses name, but I remember that
she really didn't help me. WhenI was talking about feeding the
baby, they were worried abouther pooping, and they were
shoving a bottle on her mouth.
And that's what I remember.
Sitting on my bed, shouldershrunk, you know, shrunken in
and a bottle being in my mydaughter's mouth. And I had so

(14:26):
much milk. And again, this is 12years later, and that's what I
remember. So, yeah, it makes mevery, very upset. I mean, I've
not before I was a physicaltherapist assistant, you know, I
wasn't a nurse or a doctor, butI would call myself in the
medical field right and was atthe bedside, and, again, going

(14:50):
to physical therapy program. Itmakes me so angry when I hear
the things that medicalprofessionals say. You know,
when that pediatrician sayslike, Oh, I formula fed my baby,
you're gonna be okay. That's notevidence based information that
you're supposed to providemedical based information,

(15:11):
right? Evidence basedinformation. So by saying that
is negligence, so what you aredoing is medical negligence,
when you don't give people thecorrect information, and
especially it's and it'scriminal, when you're not giving
them the medical information,because you're basing it on what
you think they are going to do.

Amanda Gorman (15:34):
No, I agree. And I think it is it is lack of
education on the whole medicalcommunity's part as to what the
value of lactation period is to,to everyone. So question here,
what do you think having a morediverse representation of IBCLCs
would and could do forbreastfeeding rates?

LaShanda Dandrich (15:59):
Well, just basically, it's going to
increase, right, it's going toincrease that that breastfeeding
duration, right. So if it'sfamily who didn't even think
that this was an option, theymay latch the baby, even if it's
one, we're going to count it,that's an increase. You know
great, if it's a week, or two ortwo months, or three months,

(16:19):
it's an increase. And we have totake the wins, you know, as I
tell my new families take thewin, and keep building on that
and compounding, right, becauseit's going to grow and it may
take a while for us to getthere. But if we keep doing it,
it's going to grow, right. Andthen we know, again, back to

(16:39):
just the medical industry, ingeneral, that representation
means so much when you havesomeone and this is an all
aspects of there, we should haverepresentation of every culture,
ability, you know, people'sabilities, language, everything

(16:59):
in medical in the medical world,because when you see someone who
looks like you it is not that wehave the same exact experience,
you know, just because I'm blackdoesn't mean I have the same
exact experience as somebody Iwalk into a room with, that is
also black. But there's justsomething about you see, when I

(17:21):
walk into a room, as a blacklactation consultant, I see the
shoulders rest a little bit. Ihear in the voice that they're
able to express certain thingsmore. And again, it doesn't mean
that this person is going to,you know, have cups over runneth
and milk is going everywhere,and the baby's going to be
great. But it means that itgives them a better chance,

(17:45):
right? To achieve their goal.
Right. And I don't, again, goingback to this, I don't understand
why this is such a barrier.
Because there are studies thatgive us this information. We
know in America, we love astudy. It's like there's studies
for this. So when you walk intoan institution that doesn't have

(18:10):
anyone of any other race, or,you know, ethnicity or language
on the staff, it should make youthink about why, especially when
the community reflects, youknow, if that has that so it may
really make you think aboutlike, why is this and I know in
the in the as a being in the inthe business now. It's that you

(18:34):
really don't care. You and justsay that you really don't care.
So what's going to happen is asa lactation consultant, as a
doula, my, you know, our friendsthat are doulas this is what we
are educating our family about.
Right? See, you know, you know,like Maya Angelou says, like,
people tell you who they are thefirst time and when they tell
you who they are, believe them.

(18:57):
If you're walking into aninstitution that is not
reflective of what's in thecommunity, you got to take that
into account. Do I really wantto be birthing there because am
I really going to get the help?
Again, there's not there may notbe a black patient consultant on
every shift, right. But you wantto know that if you are invested
in my house, that you have tomake a effort and prove to the

(19:20):
community and it is on themedical facilities part to do
that. You have to and again,it's just going to make better
outcome. It makes betteroutcomes, and that's what we
want. And if you're truly in it,not for the business and in it
for health care, then you shouldwant your clients to have better

(19:40):
outcome. Absolutely.

Amanda Gorman (19:46):
Well, I think we're really just hitting the
tip of the iceberg here. And Iwould really love to get some
more of these details with you.
So mama's we're gonna take areally short break, but we're
going to be back with Lashondain just a minute. So please
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Hello and welcome back toBreastfeeding Unplugged. With us
today is Lashonda Dandridge, aHarlem based lactation
consultant who knows firsthandjust how important it is to have
diversity in lactation supportto give women of color the best
chance for breastfeedingsuccess. Lashonda has already

(21:15):
shared some amazing informationand I'm excited to dive a little
deeper. Let me get back to aminute to black moms who are
breastfeeding, you know, herenow. What, what resources
currently exist for black momswho are looking to connect with
black IBCLCs?

LaShanda Dandrich (21:33):
Well, there are. So you mentioned Chocolate
Milk cafe, of course, I'm goingto shout that out. So, Chocolate
Milk Cafe, like you mentioned isa peer to peer led support
group. And we are you know, 2020allowed us to really take the
time and become a nonprofit andbuild out nationally. So we

(21:55):
currently are in five states.
And hopefully expanding soonwhen, you know, COVID let's up a
little and we're able to havemore trainings and open up more
chapters. And that is our maingoal to be this web of lactation
resources for families of theAfrican diaspora. So who

(22:16):
identify as black. So that's oneand a big thing of that, again,
is a peer to peer support group.
But we are there are IBCLCs, whoare affiliated with the chapter.
So that's the big stuff thatwe're making, so that everyone
can look out for that. Follow uson Chocolate Milk cafe. So we

(22:39):
want to have families know thatyou can click in here and though
it may, you know, breastfeeding,feeding your child from your
body is in, but it's going to bethis other web of finding other
maternal health, help and all,you know, in all aspects and all

(22:59):
by women of color by blackwomen. So there's that there is
I mean, just local, again, ifyou look in your local
communities, there are manyorganizations. Again, we just
heard this talking aboutbreastfeeding, that you could
find black IBCLCs. Is there, aright now does there exist a

(23:22):
national network? No. It's moreso if you know of one in your
community, you most likely weare connected, we are our own
little community. But you know,Facebook, you can go down and
look at lactation consultants ofcolor on there. So things like
that, but as a nationalorganization just not yet.

Amanda Gorman (23:45):
Well, I think it's certainly fair to say that,
you know, black IBCLCs areunderrepresented in the
lactation consultant community.
Why is there such a low rate ofblack ibclcs, in your opinion?

LaShanda Dandrich (23:57):
Again, I think it goes back to what I was
talking about, of it not beingreally looked upon as something
in the community that a lot ofpeople do. So again, if you're
not doing it, and you know, youhave a child and you're not
doing it, then people aren'treally seeking out lactation
consultants, right. Or how like,again, when I before I started,

(24:19):
I got into this, I didn't knowthat there were lactation
consultants or it could besomething to do by a career. And
then there's just a lot of Iwould say mystique around it,
like people automatically thinkthat you have to be a nurse. So
if you are a mom that has a babyand you're thinking about this,

(24:40):
it's like, oh, I gotta go backto nursing school. So you don't
have to be if you're out therelistening. You don't have to be
in there. And there are what wecall pathways. But in those
pathways, there are barriers inthat as well. Meaning that the
first one is that people thinkthat they have to be a nurse

(25:01):
again, they don't want tonecessarily want to go back to
school, it takes a lot of timeto do that. So if you're raising
a child and you know, thingstend to take a backburner, as we
know, as parents, right, there'sa pathway two that is a
educational way to get throughwhere you can go to college, but
there are not a lot of thoseprograms. And I think that's the

(25:24):
big thing, too. It's like withnursing or even like massage,
you can, you know, Google it andlook it up. And you can go to a
school or program and do that.
And then in X amount of time,you become whatever that career
is. Lactation, IBCLC is not likethat. And then the last pathway
pathway three where you have tohave the college credits again,

(25:45):
and then you have to all thepathways, you have to look for a
mentor. Quite honestly, blackwomen who are looking for
mentors can't find them, right,because it's, again, a lot of
really expensive, because thosementors are charging by the
hour, you know, for their timeas they should. But it becomes
very costly. And then again, ifI'm not guaranteed to have a job

(26:08):
at the end of this, I have toreally think about that and
weigh that, right. So in thecommunity. Again, it just kind
of something that just wasn'treally thought about, I think
even for myself, if I didn'thave those college credits, I
don't know, if I would really behere as an IBCLC, it would have

(26:28):
been something that I would'vehad to really, really think
about. Right, and then maybewould have gone a different
route to help out withbreastfeeding, but I probably
wouldn't have. So yeah,that's...

Amanda Gorman (26:44):
No, that's all good information. And yeah, you
know, I think you're right, itis complex. And there are
barriers, and I certainly hopethat we see kind of some
rearrangement of of thosepathways to open up the field,
you know, in general, but butmore so for for more IBCLCs of

(27:05):
color, because

LaShanda Dandrich (27:06):
Again, we yeah, we in the community that
are black IBCLCs like one of my.
So when I found out what alactation consultant was and
started on that pathway, andagain, finding out that not only
were there not a lot of blackwomen who quote unquote, or
breastfeeding, but there weren'ta lot of me right when I walk in
a room, I may be the only blackIBCLC, or like one or two, you

(27:27):
know, and again, we kind of allknow each other or know of each
other. And it is a very bigpush. And when I became a black,
IBCLC that was my mission too.
Is to help create more hence thelearning collective I know I'm
dropping a lot of my plugs,sorry.

Amanda Gorman (27:47):
You're doing you're doing a lot of good
things. And and I know you'redoing them because they need to
be done. Someone's someone's gotto do the work. So well, I am
not happy that we're out oftime, because I feel like
there's so much more we coulddig into. So we'll have to bring
you back to do some moredigging. But Lashonda I'm really

(28:08):
happy that you were able to joinus for this episode, because I
just love this conversation. Ithink this conversation needs to
be continued and ongoing. And weall have so much to learn. But
regarding our chat today, I knowthis is a super important topic
for moms of really every raceand we're just thrilled to have
someone like you to bring theeducation and awareness to our

(28:29):
audience. So thank you very muchfor hanging out with us today,
even though we did have sometech issues, but we got over.
Now, if any moms out there wantto get in touch with you or find
out more about all that you aredoing, what is the best way for
them to contact you?

LaShanda Dandrich (28:48):
I think Chocolate Milk Cafe. So we are
ChocolateMilkcafe.com at thewebsite, chocolate-
@chocolatemilkcafe on Instagram.
So that's a big one. That's mybaby. So if they need to contact
me through there. Uptown Villageis Uptown Village NYC on
Instagram. Lactation LearningCollective on Instagram as well

(29:12):
especially if you're looking forthose hours to help get you to
IBCLC. So those are where youcan find me.

Amanda Gorman (29:26):
Fantastic. Well thank you very much again. And
to you mom, friends, that is ourshow for the week. I really hope
you've enjoyed the conversationwith Lashonda as much as I have
and of course learned a lot too.
Now don't forget BreastfeedingUnplugged was created for moms
just like you so if you want tohear more about a topic or if
you have a question, pleasedon't be shy. Message us from
Instagram or Facebook@breastfeedingunplugged or visit

(29:49):
our website atBreastfeedingunplugged.com.
Thank you for spending more timewith us and we look forward to
hanging out with you next week.
Until then it's me Amanda. Buhbye. [Outro]