Brett Keane Live | Christian TTOR and Muslim Prophet Dan Talk Quran - Brett Keane Music | GodTvRadio Talk Show

Episode Transcript
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(02:05):
Tons of venom weaving lies spinning webs beneath blood red
skies to seek the crown. The hearts of stone betrayers
kneel on a self for throne. No mercy waits.
No truth to. Save their twisted words dig
their own grave. Flames rise high, the judgement

(05:29):
Well, hello ladies and gentlemen, my name is Brett
Keane from GOD TV Radio. I hope you're all having a
blessed day. When you get an opportunity,
check out all my music and albums that are on the front
page of my YouTube channel. You can listen for absolutely
free if you prefer Spotify or many other different places,

(05:49):
there's over 100 outlets including iTunes, Amazon Music
and so on. Make sure you check out my radio
show and all that, and also I'vewritten a book.
When you get an opportunity, also subscribe to TTOR Truth,
the Objective reality. Mr. TTOR, how you doing today?

(06:10):
Oh I am doing fantastic. Just taking it kind of easy
today. Some video gaming, working on
some stuff around the house, gota new cabinet put together for
all my towels and stuff so that was nice and got some pictures
hung and just taking it easy otherwise.

(06:33):
You recently basically had an outing you I wouldn't call it a
vacation because there was a lotof work involved.
You want to talk a little bit about that before we get into
topics? Are you talking about last week
when I was filming stuff for kids camp?
Yes. Yeah, well, maybe it's the week

(06:55):
before. Let me check my calendar.
That was two weeks ago. That's right.
Well, I'm TV producer, my church.
That's public knowledge. But part of doing my job is
during the summer when we have kids camp and as we're going to
have next week when we have our middle school, high school camp.

(07:18):
I basically become the guy who shows up and films about as much
as he can and then creates a little highlight video that gets
aired on Sunday the following week or gets aired at their next
little gathering on Wednesday night or whenever.
So yeah, I got spent a whole weekend 2 weeks ago working at

(07:42):
that camp taking video pictures.I got where I could, which was
rather few. Used other people's pictures as
well. It was fun.
It's always fun to see little kids being little kids.
That is awesome. And Speaking of church community
and and doing outings with religious folks and

(08:04):
fellowshipping, one of the topics I have that you might
find interesting is according toGallup polls, if you believe any
of those, it says there's a declining belief in God.
Gallup shows fewer Americans believe in God, down from 87%
since 2016. What's your views on that?

(08:26):
Well, what's the current percentage now?
Well, according to this, if it's87% down out of 100%, but I, I
have a theory on that myself. If you want to hear my theory
and then respond, we can do that.
Sure. Well, I think that a lot of

(08:46):
Christians nowadays, especially millennials and young people
have basically they've came towards social media.
I think a lot of people can watch, you know, guys like
yourself or me or the Kent Hovinds of the world and all
that. They can watch, you know,
scientists who have a, a godly background.

(09:09):
And when you have all that, kidsnowadays love their phone.
They love to not have their parents say you better get up on
Sunday or you're going to be in serious trouble.
Now they can do it at their lease, and I think that
Christianity's going strong. I think it's just that people
aren't interested in getting up in the morning to go to churches

(09:29):
anymore. Yeah, I mean, that's always been
a part of it because most teenagers like to stay up all
night and sleep in till noon. So wanting to not go to church
on Sunday on the weekend would be understandable in that
regard. But I noticed over the last few
years that there's been a surgeons in people rejecting

(09:53):
atheism and embracing theism, specifically popular content
creators who are always part of that agnostic skeptical crowd
starting to embrace faith. But of course, the danger with
the modern age that we live in with social media is that a lot
of times these people end up converting to some kind of

(10:16):
heretical faith, like some form of Christian nationalism where
they have this bigotry towards Jews and they embrace
replacement theology, which is completely counter to the Bible
and everything it explicitly says.
And yet people who call themselves Christians in recent
years are falling into this kindof belief.

(10:37):
So I think even though it's goodthat a lot of people are
rejecting atheism and skepticismand starting to embrace faith
because of the access to information that comes from
modern technology and modern social media sites, the danger
is a lot of these people don't have the discernment to realize

(10:58):
whether or not what they're consuming is entirely true.
So it's kind of a double edged sword.
We seem to be having an issue. I don't know why, but it does
not appear as though this is live on YouTube.

(11:19):
It says it's live on both your channels.
I know I just clicked view on YouTube and it says that it's
still waiting. What about your other channel?
This is odd, it shows that I'm getting likes and everything

(11:40):
like that, but OK. Well, you have two channels that
you're streaming to. Yeah, I know.
I'm checking the other one rightnow.
This is odd. All right, so let me look at the
other one. It says that.
It says that we're going throughon a, We're going through on a

(12:06):
different channel for sure, the one that's BK, but it's not
going through one that's odd. On your bigger one, yeah.
Yeah, it's, it's cool. I'll just, I'll run it as a
premier later and all that kind of stuff.
That's fine. The link is out there.
People know how to get in and I've already told people that

(12:29):
they can join. So there's that.
OK so you were talking about nationalism and people joining
these unusual like off spin offsof Christianity such as
nationalism. It's really weird because I
don't know if you knew this TTR but I was born in 1976 December

(12:49):
Christmas and in all of my yearsof existing on this earth I
never got a poll or a survey in the mail.
None of my family members ever got something asking if we still
believe in God for Christian or any of that.
So where the hell are they getting this?
I doubt that they're sending this out to teenagers from every

(13:11):
neighborhood, so how would they know who lacks a belief in God
or not? Right, it's probably some kind
of Internet based survey or textbased survey if I had to guess.
I've never actually partaken in any of these polls, so I
couldn't tell you how they conduct them.
Another weird thing is too, there's another Gallup poll that

(13:34):
goes right along with it. There's two of them, actually,
One that says that being a part of faith and fellowship and
believing in God is actually statistically showed that it
helps with depression and also brings up people's health.
Now, how is that? How would they know this if
they're already claiming that, you know, there's such a major

(13:55):
decline in Christianity? I don't get that.
And the second of all is are stating that Christians are
blowing up in the music charts. So if Christianity's blowing up
in the music charts, who the Hell's going to the concerts?
Right? A bunch of atheists.
I'm. Sure, there's some atheists
there because good music is goodmusic.

(14:17):
But yeah, I think there's a lot more Christians than people
would like to give credit to. But as I said before, just
because you claim Christ doesn'tnecessarily mean you are
Orthodox and of the true and living faith.

(14:38):
There's a lot of discernment that goes into whether or not
someone is truly saved based on the beliefs they hold relative
to the Bible. And that always has to be the
measuring stick of when you're looking at people who have
converted to the faith who who are professing Christians,
however long they've been doing it.

(14:58):
You always got to compare what they're saying to the
straightforward contextual reading of the Bible and
evaluate whether or not they aretelling the truth and not
embracing heresies. Whether they know it or don't
know it. It's just a battle that
Christians have to endure. But yeah, definitely not a good

(15:19):
time to be an atheist or an agnostic.
Definitely not. So there's another thing here
that you might find interesting.Apparently there are people in
the churches that are narking ontheir preachers or their
pastors, whatever you want to call them, by claiming that a

(15:40):
lot of them are now using AI to generate sermons.
US pastors use AI for preaching,sparking authenticity.
Oh man, it's a tough word debate.
Authenticity. There you go.
See that's why I keep your on you keep me honest.
So what do you think about that?Is it wrong for them to use AI

(16:04):
to generate? It seems like it would help them
biblically and it would help them with a a decent message.
Well, using it as a research tool I'm sure is not a problem.
But if you're using AI to craft your entire sermon, and then you
preach what the AI made for you,that's a little more problematic
because it gives off the impression that you don't

(16:26):
actually study the Bible for yourself and you don't take the
painstaking steps necessary to put together your own sermon.
But then again, if there are pastors out there who are doing
that, it's not surprising because I'm sure we've all heard
about the stories about people who use the AI to write all
their college papers and do all their homework in school so that

(16:47):
they can spend more time playingvideo games and having fun.
Or like that One South Park episode, they were using ChatGPT
to write text messages back to their girlfriends so that they
didn't have to emotionally invest into that.
But yeah, that's that's been a common trope of the last couple

(17:09):
of years, a common stereotype regarding the use of AI.
So pastors using it to make their sermons that they give on
Sundays, that's not exactly a surprise because you study
history and especially biblical history.
People who call themselves Christians have been

(17:29):
compromising with the world eversince Jesus ascended back into
heaven following his resurrection from the dead.
And so naturally, you'll see Christians so-called conform to
the world in order to be a part of the world in some way.
And it seems like crap. Using AI to make your sermons

(17:50):
would be well, par for the course.
I have no idea why that didn't start.
I wonder if it only allows you to do 1 YouTube channel at a
time or something like that. That's odd.
It shouldn't. It shouldn't because you and I,

(18:11):
I have multiple YouTube channelsgoing on a lot of my live
streams. It's never been a problem
before. Well, maybe it's because we're
separate accounts or something. Isn't like Google connected to,
well, I don't know. Let's take a look at some more
topics here. Some interesting stuff according
to the Now, this is interesting.Now remember that same Gallup

(18:36):
claimed that fewer Americans believe in God, Yet according to
the same deal, it says Christianvoters are shaping GOP policies
in 2025. That's a bit of a conundrum,
isn't it, Brett? Somehow we're a shrinking
population and yet we have this outsized influence on one of the

(18:58):
major political parties in our country.
Kind of strange. It is.
It's very, very strange. We might actually get a Muslim
in him a little bit. He's a very eloquent with this
speech, so we won't have a hard time with this accent.
He said he would come in at somepoint in time, so that'd be

(19:19):
interesting. You get along with Muslims.
I don't know, I've barely interacted with them.
All right, fair enough, fair enough.
I've interacted with them. Seems like their big issue is it
seems to be the Trinity issues and all that.

(19:41):
Somebody called Eastgate is saying no, it isn't.
Let's see. Well, I'm on Brett Kane Live,
that alternate channel and you are currently live streaming to
it. Yeah, let me see if this link
is. It's just, it's just Brett's
other channel, his bigger channel that is not streaming.

(20:05):
Oh, I accidentally gave the wrong live link.
Hold on, do you have the can youpost the link of the the Brett
Keene live? Are these folks I'll pin?
Be able. To I'll pin it up.
There we go. All right, there we go.

(20:31):
No, you probably should have putshow is live there, but that'll
work. Yeah, that's true.
But yeah, rarely interacted withMuslims, so I can't say that I
get along with them or don't. Well, they it's.
Usually atheist like not go ahead.

(20:53):
Well, I was going to say, they seem to have a their big thing
they like to argue about is Trinity.
They have a hard time believing that Allah would come down as a
as a man and all that. They don't have a problem with
them talking to your animals or through a burning Bush or
something, but becoming a man, that's just too much for them.

(21:14):
And they also don't have a problem with the eternal word of
Allah becoming a physical book in reality.
But somehow the Trinity is just too far for them.
There you go. Perfect point.
Let's see what we got. All right.
OK, so here's church attendance drop.

(21:35):
It says only 20% of Americans attend weekly services.
Why the decline? And we talked about all those
other subjects. So I'm not really sure if this
poll is telling the truth or not.
So like 20% of Americans who actually go to church every
week? Yeah, that's what they're

(21:56):
claiming weekly. Right, because there are some
people who, they go to church quite a bit, but every once in a
while they don't show up. Like they might go to a
different church one Sunday or they're on vacation or any
number of things can happen. So I guess that kind of makes
sense. Only 20% of American Christians

(22:19):
actually going to their church each and every single week?
That actually kind of makes sense.
Right, Exactly. All right.
So apparently there's been some issues with mega church
scandals. What do you prefer, smaller
churches or mega churches? Do you think mega churches can

(22:40):
be a problem? Well, I think one of the biggest
problem with a mega church is that there's just way too many
people in order to form close bonds with people.
Like it's easy to get lost in the mix and not be not able to
form close fellowship relationships with other

(23:02):
Christians. Smaller churches tend to be
easier for that to happen because there's a lot fewer
people and you're able to connect with leadership in a way
that you might not be able to ina larger mega church.
And so there's a better opportunity in smaller churches
for quality fellowship and forming real friendships with

(23:23):
other believers and the leaders of your church.
Whereas in a mega church, it's not impossible, it's just really
hard to do because there's just so many people attending and
it's hard to get time with church leadership in that kind
of setting. So just that alone makes mega
churches a more difficult environment to be a part of for
a lot of people, regardless of whether that mega church is

(23:46):
Orthodox and their teachings or not.
It's just a logistics. Issue.
That's fair enough. Looks like our Muslim friend
will be coming in soon. He just left a comment.
Let me know, let me see. Let's get this link here.

(24:11):
OK, let me put We are live here.We are live here.
Goodness gracious. All right, so let's see what we

(24:32):
got here. Gen.
Z Spiritual shift Young Americans favor eclectic
spirituality over organized religion.
Why do you think that is? I need to know what eclectic
means. I guess that it sounds like it's
Pagan druidism, that kind of stuff.

(24:55):
Well, the way the way it reads off is that it makes it sound
like they don't like having to adhere to certain standards and
rules, because that's something a lot of people, they like to
hear, the fluffy stuff that Christianity teaches on the
outside. But when it comes to anything of
substance that might challenge you or hold you accountable, a

(25:17):
lot of people tend to shy away from that.
So yeah, I think it's pretty safe to say that that's probably
the case with these people because having to actually
adhere to what the Bible teachesand records, no matter how
offensive or ridiculous some people might consider those

(25:39):
things to be, is a big ask for alot of people.
So it's easier to just adhere tosome form of spirituality.
That's why I hear people say, oh, I'm spiritual, not
religious. Being spiritual basically allows
you to pick and choose what you want to adhere to and what you
want to believe, and basically avoid the kind of accountability

(26:03):
that would come with fully adhering to a biblical Christian
worldview. Or that concept would even work
in other religions. Because you could use that kind
of logic to avoid being a completely faithful Muslim or
avoid being a completely faithful Mormon or Jehovah's
Witness or whatever, but most ofthe time it's applied to the

(26:26):
Christian biblical worldview. In your church or anyone you're
related to, are they non believer and what is that like
to deal with especially non believers that are coming to
church to change their minds? Well, people come and go at my
church quite a bit. So it's hard and it's really

(26:49):
hard to tell whether or not somebody is a believer or not,
at least from my perspective. Because I'm usually in the
backroom getting ready to live stream the services and handling
any little tech issues that comeup.
So I'm not able to be out there getting a thumb, my thumb on the
on the vibes that people are putting out and listening to

(27:11):
their conversations and whatnot.But yeah, the main problem that
some people have who might not be believers, but they are
curious or they're seeking is that in a lot of churches, it's
really easy for them to basically come in, hide out in
the back, and then just leave and not make any kind of

(27:32):
meaningful connection or not even have someone say hi or talk
to them. So sometimes unbelievers can be
in our midst and we don't even realize it.
And they don't feel like they'rewelcomed or they're loved or
that that Christians even want them to be there because they're

(27:52):
not getting any kind of engagement from people.
And so engaging people who come through your door is an
important thing because they might just be a Christian
looking for a new church home, or they might be an unbeliever
seeking God in some way. So engaging people at church, I
think is the important thing to do.

(28:16):
Well, it says that Mormonism is actually growing.
It's expanding outward. What do you think?
Mormonism is getting popular if these any of these polls are
correct. Well, Mormonism is appealing to
those who fall into it because it gives you a measure of
control, allegedly, over your salvation.

(28:40):
One of the basic ideas that theyteach of Mormonism is that you
do everything you can, and then the grace of Jesus covers up for
what you couldn't do. So the idea is that you actually
have some measure of control over your salvation.
Basically, you're responsible for at least part of your
salvation, and not all of the credit can go to God only.

(29:02):
Of course the problem with that is according to the New
Testament, God doesn't share hisglory with anyone and he makes
it clear in both the Old and NewTestaments that there is nothing
you can do in terms of good works to earn 1 inch one drop of
your salvation. As a matter of fact, when you're
not a believer, any good works you do or nothing but filthy

(29:24):
rags to the Lord. So yeah, Mormonism is definitely
false from a biblical perspective just on that alone,
because Jesus, the Bible as a whole, makes it clear that you
can't earn your salvation. God does all of the work because
he doesn't share his glory of anyone.

(29:44):
All we have to do is accept his offer of forgiveness and submit
to him, and that's all we got todo.
But Mormonism, there's a whole bunch of things you got to do.
And basically the idea is that you have to earn your salvation
as much as possible. And it's only when you reach the
end and you haven't quite earnedyour salvation all the way that

(30:08):
Jesus steps in and takes care ofthe rest.
But until you get to that point where you're dead and Mormonism,
you're basically expected to earn your salvation for all
practical purposes because you have to do certain things.
You know, you have to be a part of your ward and you have to
fulfill certain requirements anddoctrines in your life.
And if you're part of that fundamentalist Mormonism

(30:31):
movement, you have to practice polygamy because Joseph Smith
said that if you didn't, you wouldn't get to go to the
highest level of heaven in theirlittle religious worldview.
So yeah, Mormonism is very much a works based religion, and the
Bible condemns works based religion, pure and simple.

(30:52):
Now, what if somebody accepts Christ and they say all the
stuff, but then later on in their life they change their
views or something happens? You hear all these stories about
atheists having tragedies or something going on in their life
that made them question. Take a guy for example.
I've heard people use Matt Dillahunty as an example.

(31:15):
He claims that he used to be a preacher, was saved, all that
stuff. What what is the case with him?
Is he still saved? That comes down to that once
saved, always saved doctrine, itsounds like, because there are
some people out there who do think that all you have to do at

(31:35):
some point in your life is merely professed faith in
Christ. And then even if you fall away,
you backslide and you basically become a hedonistic Pagan or a
hedonistic atheist for the rest of your life until you die.
You're still going to heaven because that one time you
professed faith in Christ gets you into heaven even though you

(31:57):
had zero fruit to show for it your whole life.
And as you know, biblically speaking, fruit in your life is
something that has to happen if you are saved.
It doesn't necessarily need to be a lot of fruits, but there
has to be some kind of fruit in your life if you're saved.
Because if you're saved, the evidence of your salvation is

(32:20):
that you will start to do the fruit of good works, things that
you weren't doing before you were saved.
That's the kind of thing that we're looking for when it comes
to whether or not someone's a Christian and judging whether or
not they're saved. And so we look at that and come
to those conclusions. Now you're talking about someone

(32:41):
who used to be a Christian but then D converted into like
atheism or agnosticism. Because Matt Dillahunty is not
unique in his case. He's basically a dime a dozen
among most of the Internet atheists because a lot of them
claim they used to be Christiansor they used to be creationists
before they fell away from theirfaith and became who they are

(33:02):
today, basically running a YouTube channel speaking out
against everything they used to believe, allegedly.
And that's a problem biblically speaking to because when you
read the Gospels and you read Jesus specifically, and I
believe it's John chapter 10, Jesus says that his sheep belong
to him, that no one can snatch them out of his hand.

(33:27):
So if you can be snatched out ofhis Jesus's hand via
deconversion, well then the logical conclusion a Bible
believing Christian has to come to is that that person was never
truly saved, no matter how much they may have professed it at
some point. So with that in mind, that's why

(33:51):
when we look at people like MattDillahunty or Apologia or Vice
Rhino or any one of these Internet atheists or religious
skeptics who claims they used tobe Christians before they became
who they are today. Well, we have to conclude that
they were never truly saved to begin with.

(34:12):
Because if they could fall away like that, then Jesus would be
wrong when he says that nobody can snatch them out of his hand.
His his sheep, his true followers.
So that's why. That's why Christians respond
the way they do to atheists and religious skeptics who claim
they used to be Christians. I was looking at troubleshooting

(34:38):
for why it may have not showed up and it says that sometimes
the megabytes or whatever it takes nor to run stream yards it
if you don't have enough, sometimes 1 won't start.
So I'll have to do some tests later probably.
Daniel, it's OK that you got in a little bit late.
I didn't. I don't usually expect people to

(34:58):
drop in right in the very secondI start.
Glad to have you in. You look like you're a lot more
awoke now. Last time I talked to you, I was
worried because you said you hadto go somewhere and I'm like,
man, this guy's barely keeping it alive.
How's he going to drive? Yeah, how are you, Brad?

(35:20):
Sorry for being late. I'm wondering how I go about
getting an awesome microphone like that.
Goodness gracious. The Internet.
So you're able to hear me? Yes, I can hear you.
Can you hear me? Yeah, OK.
Yeah, everything is good, Yeah. I put you up on the big screen

(35:40):
alongside my buddy TTOR. As beautiful as I am, I rather
see other people whenever I'm talking, so it's all good.
Can you see me? My little head right there.
Yeah, we see. We see you peeking out, Brett.
All right, so tell us a little bit about yourself, Daniel.
I didn't get a chance to get to know you because people were
busy picking on Kevin whenever we started talking.

(36:06):
Yeah, just yeah. So the stream.
So basically I'm a Muslim. I come from a Muslim Islamic
background. I have studied the Quran for

(36:27):
significant time say like over 22 years of proper research,
type study and also learning thelanguage of the Quran, the
classical Arabic in which it is documented which no more is like

(36:53):
spoken on the same level as thatof the Quran except for
religious circles. So in in Arabia, for example,
people don't commonly speak it, but people of religion, like the
religious groups or peoples involved in theology and things

(37:15):
like that, they might speak thatlanguage.
But yeah, it is a it was a journey to learning as a Muslim,
people get exposed to the Arabiclanguage of the Koran quite
early. So was I like as a kid you begin

(37:35):
learning how to read the Quran in Arabic language.
So I learned reading quite earlybut I would not understand it
because it was not a spoken language and up until when I was
like an adult wanting to learn how it is understood.

(37:56):
So when I was like 18 ish 1819 around my university is when I
am wondering how it what it means.
So I'm going into taking lessonsand learning basically the
language, the framework of the language, the gram, the grammar,
the conjugations, and you know, all of that sort of stuff.

(38:20):
I, I visited your, I visited your channel and I noticed
you've got a lot of imagery having to do with Jesus Christ.
Does that cause you any trouble with the other Muslims?
Because I've heard that some Muslims or at least some brand
of Islam doesn't like artwork and some of the pretty stuff you
got on your channel. I think it's great looking.

(38:42):
I love seeing some Jesus stuff. Yeah.
I mean, I don't think that this is that necessarily poses a
problem or an issue I was getting I was getting there.
So what really happens is after I'm learning, I was introduced
to the Bible even before I'm I'mlike, I'm like, you know,

(39:06):
properly studying the Quran evenbefore that I was introduced to
other to the Bible. You can say around the same
time, you know, I'm I'm getting introduced to the Bible.
You I mean, we all understand, like going into the scriptures
is not going to give us knowledge straight away.
I mean, it's a struggle. It's a journey people have to

(39:26):
take. And I have not yet understood
the Quran and I have the Bible in my hand and I'm reading the
Bible and I stumble over some ofthe verses, not so nice verses
about the prophet Ishmael. And I'm like, oh, I don't want

(39:50):
to read the Bible because the Bible is pejorative to Ishmael.
That's my first impression that I can recollect reading the
Bible. So and then I did not read the
Bible for quite some time and I just kept reading the Quran and
trying to understand it. But something different was

(40:11):
happening to me when I was reading the Quran.
The Quran was telling me to go and read the Bible.
I'm like what? I mean, why does the Quran tell
me so many times to go and read the Bible?
Like OK, I can't get to the point.
Smokey 64654 I will get there ina minute.
OK in some time, like in five to10 minutes.

(40:36):
So the Quran was kept telling mego and read the Bible.
God gave the scriptures to Moses, Jesus, David and all of
them, the rest of the prophets. And it's God who gave the
scriptures to Jesus. It's God who gave the scriptures
to Moses. So you got to read it.
You got to believe in it, You got to read it.
So I'm like, OK, and I start reading the Bible and moving

(40:59):
away from, you know, the pejorative stuff, just going
beyond it, reading, reading and reading.
And I understood to be the word of God because you just keep
reading and you understand it's the word of God.
And but of course are. You saying that you accept the

(41:21):
Bible as well as the Quran Sir? But there's a difference.
The Bible to me is not a verbatim word of God.
And unlike the Quran, the Quran to me is a verbatim word of God.
Not so much the Bible. But the Bible has chunks and
chunks of words of God like the verbatim word of God.

(41:43):
But at the same time, the Bible also has the words of the
scribes which are not verbatim word of God, if that makes
sense. Want to answer that question of
you. OK so but it sounds like you're
saying that while you read the Quran, and I understand you're
working with the language here, but while you were reading the
Quran you felt moved by God to read the Bible as well.

(42:07):
Did did did Allah want you to find something wrong with it or
accept it as also holy scripture?
No to to basically accept it as Holy Scriptures.
And that's why I accept it as Holy Scriptures.
But we all understand that the biblical documentation is not

(42:29):
verbatim. We all understand that.
I mean, I'm sure you understand that also.
What are you hoping that I'll understand?
Try that one more time. Sorry about that.
So like we all understand the biblical scriptures not to be
the word baiting words of God because prophet Jeremiah himself
goes and says your the pen of the lying, the lying pen of the

(42:55):
scribes has written the scriptures.
So prophet Jeremiah is alluding to the scribes for writing
scriptures with a lying pen. At the same time, there are
scriptures, the words of God, but they are not to be taken as
verbatim words of God. So what parts do you take as

(43:16):
God? I mean, it's not as
straightforward to say that you have to be.
You have to have the insights ofseeing in the scriptures the

(43:36):
explanatory text of the scribes.So the scribes do explain it a
little bit after coding God or you know, where you know, the
text quite frequently says this is what the Lord says, right?
And it goes and quotes the Lord So and other than that, you can

(43:59):
see the scribes are also workingin it to explain the scriptures
from their own point of view, right?
So you have this, you know, a mixture of, you know, advice,
but some of it is also from the scribes themselves.

(44:22):
So it's not as straightforward. But, but the Quran does say, I
mean it, it makes a categorical statement saying there is light,
there's enlightenment and there is guidance.
Both of these components are there in the Bible, both the
Gospels and the prophets. So there is enlightenment in

(44:45):
them and there is guidance in them.
Daniel, I don't know if you hearme clearly.
I forgive me. I should have introduced you.
We've got another user in the room by the name of truth, the
objective reality TTOR, and I think that he would like to
build talk to you. He had said earlier that he
hasn't had much interaction withMuslims and this might be

(45:07):
interesting. I want to tell you the Daniel, I
want to make this clear. We're not a fight room or a
drama room. We will like meeting people.
I'm not saying that where we've hung out is bad, but in here we
try to have chill conversation. So don't be nervous.
You're amongst friends all right.
Not a problem at all and thank you for tipping me off.

(45:30):
So Daniel mentioned that not theentire Bible is the word of God
referring to Old and New Testament, that only chunks of
it are. And I kind of am confused by
that because when I read Sura 5 verses 43 through 47, I get a
very different idea. And I just want to read that
passage out loud so that everyone watching knows what

(45:52):
passage of the Quran we're talking about.
And then we can have Daniel explain why it says what it
says, but the passage itself says.
But why do they come to you for judgment when they already have
the Torah containing Allah's judgment?
Then they turn away. After all, they are not true
believers. Indeed, We revealed the Torah

(46:15):
containing guidance and light, by which the Prophets who
submitted themselves to Allah made judgments for Jews.
So too did the rabbis and scholars judge according to
Allah's Book, which they were entrusted and of which they were
made keepers. So do not fear the people, fear
me, nor trade my revelations fora fleeting gain.
And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are

(46:38):
truly the disbelievers We ordained for them in the Torah a
life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear
for an ear, a tooth for a tooth and for wounds.
Equal retaliation. But whoever waves it charitably,
it will be atonement for them. And those who do not judge by
what Allah has revealed are truly the wrongdoers.

(47:00):
Then in the footsteps of the Prophets, We sent Jesus son of
Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him.
And We gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light
and confirming what was revealedin the Torah.
A guide and a lesson to the God fearing so that the people of
the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it, and those

(47:22):
who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are truly the
rebellious. So in this passage we see Allah
through the Prophet Muhammad saythat the Torah is a revelation
of Allah that was revealed and that Jews are to judge by it.
But then he says that Jesus brought us the Gospel, which is

(47:44):
commonly understood to be referring to the New Testament,
and that this New Testament, this gospel, confirms the
revelation revealed before him in the Torah.
And therefore, Christians and Jews are commanded by Allah to
judge by what has been revealed by Allah in the Old Testament,

(48:04):
in the New Testament, which is called the gospel here in this
instance. And so when I hear you say that
parts of the Bible are either corrupt or they're not the word
of God in some way, shape or form, it seems to contradict
what your God and your prophet are saying.

(48:26):
As as you can see too, we actually are commanded by a lot
to judge by what our books say. Because if we don't, then we are
truly the rebellious, We're truly the wrongdoers.
We're truly the disbelievers. So there's actually a penalty
for me, according to Islam, if Idon't accept the things that are
in my Bible. And so I'm wondering, how do you

(48:49):
reconcile this passage with whatyou were saying before?
Go ahead, mess with Daniel. My position is not contradictory
to those passages of the Quran for the reason that the judgment

(49:11):
that's found in the Torah and inthe in jail applies to the
public affairs where people havedisputes and they seek out
justice and fairness. So when it when the Quran says
judge your affairs, it's basically saying, you know, the

(49:35):
jurisdiction, the legislative process has to meet the standard
of Torah and the Gospel. So if you do not have your
communities, you know, receive justice and fairness through the
statutes of Torah and the Gospel, then you're guilty of a

(49:57):
crime before the Lord, right? So that's what the passage is
referring to. So when I say the scripture is
not verbatim documented, I'm only saying what prophet
Jeremiah says, right. The prophet Jeremiah goes on
says the lying pen of the scribes has written down the

(50:19):
scriptures. So a lot of the stories in in
the in both in the Gospels and in the Old Testament and the
prophets may have been manipulated by the scribes, but
not the judgement of God. The judgement of God is still
found in the Torah and in the Gospels.
So when the Christian communities organize public

(50:42):
affairs, legislative processes, and juridical processes, they
are required to be obedient to the words of God.
They have the books of God, the Torah and the Gospel.
And the Jewish people are required to be in line acting
within the framework of the Torah they have and the prophets

(51:04):
you know they have. So.
There is no cost, Daniel and Daniel, the from what I just
listened to what TTR read and what I'm seeing on the screen,
you're saying that it was talking about something
specifically with it having to do with judgment or whatever or
the order of the day. But the problem is, is that the
lines are very clear. It says the Torah, it doesn't

(51:28):
say, but part of the Torah are 20% of the Torah.
It says the Torah. Which gives me the literal idea
that it's speaking about the whole thing in its entirety.
Am I incorrect? TTOR.
The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament.
But many times in the Islamic texts we see it referred to the

(51:52):
entire Old Testament. And since he brought up the
prophet Jeremiah, which obviously Jeremiah's writings
were not part of the first five books of the Bible, then we have
to conclude that the Torah he's referring to and that the text
is referring to, as we see in other cases, is referring to the
entirety of the Old Testament. Which Jeremiah is actually an

(52:14):
interesting example that Daniel brought up.
Because in Jeremiah 31, verses 31 through 34, God reveals
through Jeremiah that there is coming a new covenant to replace
the old covenant, which the old covenant is the Old Testament.
And when we get into the New Testament gospels, we see at the

(52:35):
Last Supper Jesus says that he has established that new
covenant. And then when you read Hebrews
chapter 8 in the New Testament, we get more detail about that
new covenant and how basically it was essential to replace the
old one. So if we're comparing biblical

(52:55):
texts to Quranic texts, then we have to conclude that the Old
and New Testaments in their entirety are the revealed words
of a law. And that Christians and Jews
should judge not just various disputes among themselves in
some legal sense, but they should judge everything relative

(53:18):
to their faith by these revealedtexts that came from a law.
I don't think you are necessarily understanding the
context of that of those passages in the Quran for the
fact that even when the Quran isasking Prophet Muhammad to

(53:41):
judge, the context really being there was a dispute with the
people of the book who came to get a judgement from the Prophet
Muhammad, right? When there was a dispute, right?
So it's not a theological judgement that God is asking you
to make or draw. It is a judgement as concerns
justice and fairness between people's disputes.

(54:03):
So when litigants come posing a problem requiring adjudication,
that's when you you know, you adjudicate based on the guidance
you have the guidance of God, the you know, the meters, the
measures, the measure of justiceand the measure of righteousness

(54:24):
that should come from from the Scriptures.
So basically, if read in context, it becomes clearly
apparent, it becomes very apparent that this is talking
about this resolving disputes and litigations, not really an
entirety of a holistic or an ontological stance of a

(54:48):
reference. You know, it's not an
ontological reference, you know,assertion or a claim or a
statement. It is not.
It is very limited to the context of people seeking
justice and fairness. I'm a little confused now too
because according to the Yusuf Ali translation of Surah 5417 it

(55:14):
says that and we have indeed made the Quran easy to
understand and remember. Then is there any that will
receive admonition? So according to Allah, the Quran
is not just easy to remember, it's easy to understand.
Meaning that the straightforwardcontextual reading of the Quran

(55:36):
is exactly what Allah means. So when I see Allah and serve
543 through 47 saying that the Old and New Testaments are his
word and that Christians and Jews are to judge by them, well
then I think that's pretty easy to understand.
At that point. I I don't think I need to
reinterpret a law's words. May Ioffer you both a suggestion

(55:59):
real quick first is for TTURTTUR.
May I suggest that you put some kind of like a towel or some
kind of texture under your keyboard whenever you're typing
because it gets really loud and it kind of cuts off the voice a
little bit. Or there's the possibility of
muting just to say. And that Daniel, you are always

(56:20):
welcome as well as other users out there to connect your
YouTube channels to stream whenever I'm doing stuff.
But can you make sure that you do it before we go live?
That way it gets everything in its context.
You know, you wouldn't want me to come in like halfway through
and do that because then people wouldn't even know what we're
talking about, right? But let's let's continue on.

(56:44):
And if you'd like to answer his question, thank you TTOR for
fixing the frame. You're welcome.
OK, so when we go into the context, go into verse #43.
So verse #43 reads, why do they even appeal to you for judgement

(57:06):
when they possess the Torah of Moses?
So it is exactly as I'm telling you when people, when litigants
came requesting adjudication in their dispute, right?
So that's when these verses are being given.
So verse #43 clearly states, whydo they even appeal to you for

(57:26):
judgement when they possess the Torah of Moses?
Therein is found God's legal commands.
Yet after such conveniences, they turn away from it.
And such folk aren't sincere believers.
Indeed, verse #44 indeed, we have revealed the Torah of Moses
there in his guidance and enlightenment.
The prophets in their submissionto God judged Jewish public

(57:49):
affairs by its standard. They're Lords of law and their
scholars were entrusted with theduty to protect the book of God,
and they were witnesses over it,telling them do not fear men,
instead fear me. Do not trade my teachings for
worldly exchanges. Those who do, those who do not
judge according to the the revelation sent by God, they are

(58:12):
the unbelievers. Verse #45 For them we legislated
equality of life for life, eye for an eye, nose for a nose, ear
for an ear, tooth for a tooth, and any hurt in equal
retribution. But whoever foregoes revenge
will help serve for his atonement.
And any who does not judge by the standards revealed of God,

(58:33):
then such are the wrongdoers. Verse #46 We had Jesus the son
of Mary succeed in exact footsteps confirming the earlier
scriptures of the Torah of Moses, and we gave him the
Injeel, the Gospel in which there is guidance and
enlightenment. It confirms the earlier
scriptures in the possession of the Torah as a guide and
brilliant counsel to the God fearing.

(58:55):
Verse #47 So let the people of Injeel Gospel judge their public
affairs with its contents, whichGod has cabled, and any who do
not judge with its contents, which God has revealed become
the disobedient sinners. So it's exactly as I said, the
context is of litigants of a dispute.

(59:17):
When people come asking for adjudication, that's when these
teachings are being given. So we have, we cannot peel out
these passages from its context and then have an ontological
view of a wholesome judgment which includes theological
concepts. Well, it is not.

(59:37):
So I think this is where people who think of Islamic dilemma,
they actually go wrong because they don't compartmentalize the
judgment to civil affairs and the theological creed.
They understand judgment as a wholesome ontological concept
involving both theology and civil affairs, which is not the

(59:59):
case. The Quran is very specific.
It's contextual. The context is when litigants
came asking for justice and fairness, their dispute to be
adjudicated. So it's pretty clear.
So the context is set in verse #43.
Well, there's other passages in the Quran as well, like in 544

(01:00:20):
it says indeed, we sent down theTorah and which was guidance and
light. I mean, it's actually saying
that it is divine. It is, it is a guiding light for
humanity. So I mean, how would you be able
to suggest that or imply what you just said with it actually
seeing it came directly from God?

(01:00:42):
I mean, there's no doubt that Torah was given by Almighty God,
the Injeel and the prophets, youknow, they received their books
from Almighty God, Absolutely. There is no doubt in it.
It's just the same way as the Quran was given, right?
But the way the Quran got documented and the way that the
books of the Bible were documented, there is a

(01:01:03):
difference there. It took quite some time, like a
Millennium almost, for the the Hebrew Scriptures to be
accumulated into what is called as the Septuagint.
The Greek translation. It was done after quite a while,

(01:01:23):
right? It was not done immediately.
The fragments of the Hebrew Scriptures are not even extent
anymore. Those fragments have been lost.
Even Septuagint itself has been lost.
But what we have is a successionof those manuscripts into
various other versions. And as you know, the Mesoretic

(01:01:43):
text was only finalized or canonized in the 10th century.
So it almost took a couple of millenniums, like 2000 years for
them to canonize the Mesoretic text.
So it's not the same as the Quran.
In fact, the Quran was documented pretty quick, like

(01:02:04):
very quick. And there is an, there is also a
very strong oral tradition with the Quran.
And therefore we have the Quran very intact.
Like you don't have textual variants, you know, except for
typographical errors that peoplewho are investigating the
Quranic manuscripts, the people such as Mark England, Putin,

(01:02:27):
he's a European, obviously a secular person.
I don't know. I don't think he's a believer,
but he does a great deal of workin pulling out the early Quran,
the origins of the early Quran, the documentation of it.
So he concedes the fact that theQuran has been documented unlike

(01:02:47):
anything like it's highly accurate documentation.
So what? But on the other hand, what we
find is we do find variations, sometimes chapters missing,
sometimes verses missing from different Bible manuscripts.
So there is a clear difference between the two texts, how they

(01:03:08):
were preserved. And therefore, you know, the
verbatim words of God, as Jeremiah himself says that the
scribes have basically used their lying pen.
Jeremiah said, I don't know why he said that.
I do know the implications of that statement.
But I would like to hear from your side.

(01:03:29):
What do you think what Jeremiah really meant?
And the people who confuse Islamic, you know, the Islamic
dilemma thing, that's a big talkof town these days on the
Internet. Why I'm not, I haven't really
got into the dilemma thing and all this you're actually, I
haven't spoken to Muslims for about a month and a half.

(01:03:51):
I used to hang out with brother Maverick and do that.
It's I have no doubts or disagreement that the Bible's
went through a lot of a lot of wars, a lot of stuff throughout
the years. But what you're saying about the
Quran never having any kind of issues, I find that a bit
strange because I'm kind of a fan of history and I believe
that pages and some of it was actually set on fire.

(01:04:15):
I forget how to pronounce the the Muslim who did this in order
to try to lead the Muslims themselves.
Do you recall what I'm talking about?
Well, I, I personally did burning of the Quranic pages
quite a lot like that was the usual procedure.
Like we have the books that we read.

(01:04:38):
And after a while, you know, when lots of students come and
read the books, they open, close, open, close and the, the
book of the Quran begins to shred, right?
It the pages fall off. So the basic procedure, how we
destroy or you know, what do youcall, you know, destroying the
documents, shredding, right, shredding the the, the basic

(01:04:58):
procedure for shredding back in the day was we would burn it up,
right? You don't throw, you don't
scatter the pages here and there.
You collect all the pages that have fallen and you burn them
up. So burning the Quran is not been
an issue because it is done for preservation, not out of
disrespect. Like, you know, what basically

(01:05:20):
people object to is when people disrespect that they have to
burn down the Quran for some, for some, you know, for some
reason, right, they don't like it or whatever it is.
That's when there is a, there isan issue.
But otherwise, back in the day when I was a little kid, the
usual procedure for shredding the documents was burning them

(01:05:41):
down, right? So I understand where you come
from, the 1st century when the Quran was being documented.
Obviously my children write the Quran.
I mean, I give them tasks so they write it, and when my
children are writing, they do make spelling errors,
typographical errors and everything.
And if I were to collect them and canonize those writings of

(01:06:05):
my children, obviously we will end up having a different,
slightly different Quran becauseof the mistakes that they're
making while they're writing that writing them down.
So it is not prudent to save those documents that my children
write up today as a reference for the Quran.
So there had to be a sum of procedure of canonizing.

(01:06:26):
And in the 1st century when the caliphs were involved in
canonizing process, they really collected all of the writings
that the companions of Prophet Muhammad had made and they
burned them down, rightly so, for right reasons, for correct
reasons. That's because they don't want
variations to be proliferated between peoples and something

(01:06:48):
that did not really happen with the Bible, but it it really
happened with the Quran for for the right reasons.
So once you've standardized the text, there is no need for a
typographical errors to be proliferated anymore or spread
across anymore. So it makes obvious sense to
burn them down. Well, Daniel, I'll respond to

(01:07:09):
your question about Jeremiah andthe pen and then sounds like TT
O Rs got some things he wants tothrow out there.
But according to us Christian scholars, the universe argue
that the Hebrew Scriptures may have been altered before the
time of Jesus, supporting the idea that the New Testament
fulfills or corrects earlier revelations.

(01:07:30):
So this is what the scholars areclaiming on that.
I myself, I'm not a biblical scholar, but they said, they say
that. They pretty much cleared that
up. They said that during the time
whenever Jeremiah was saying this, it was a great deal of
decline in humanity's morality at this point.
So there was some irritation. TTOR, did you have something you

(01:07:52):
wanted to respond on the Jeremiah thing, or did you have
something you wanted to bring up?
Yes, I just looked up the Jeremiah thing he was referring
to and it is definitely not saying that the scribes of
Jeremiah's time were corrupting the text of the Torah.

(01:08:12):
I'd like to read the actual textof Jeremiah chapter 8 verses one
through 12, which is where what he's referring to is found.
We see here from the top at thattime, declares the Lord.
The bones of the kings and officials of Judah, the bones of
the priests and prophets, and the bones of the people of
Jerusalem will be removed from their graves.

(01:08:35):
They will be exposed to the sun and the moon, and all the stars
of the heavens, which they have loved and served, and which they
have followed and consulted and worshipped.
They will not be gathered up or buried, but will be like dung
lying on the ground. Wherever I banish them.
All the survivors of this evil nation will prefer death to
life, declares the Lord Almightysay to them.

(01:08:57):
This is what the Lord says. When people fall down, do they
not get up? When someone turns away, do they
not return? Why then have these people
turned away? Why does Jerusalem always turn
away? They cling to deceit.
They refuse to return. I have listened attentively, but
they do not say what is right. None of them repent of their

(01:09:19):
wickedness, saying, What have I done?
Each pursues their own course like a horse charging into
battle. So even the stork in the sky
knows her appointed seasons, andthe dove, the swift and the
thrush, observe the time of their migration.
But my people do not know the requirements of the Lord.
How can you say we are wise? For we have the law of the Lord,

(01:09:41):
when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it
falsely. The wise will be put to shame.
They will be dismayed and trapped, since they have
rejected the word of the Lord. What kind of wisdom do they
have? Therefore I will give their
wives to other men, and their fields to new owners.
From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain.

(01:10:02):
Prophets and priests alike all practice deceit.
They dress the wound of my people as though it were not
serious peace. Peace, they say, when there is
no peace. Are they ashamed of their
detestable conduct? No, they have no shame at all.
They do not even know how to blush.
So they will fall among the fallen.

(01:10:22):
They will be brought down when they are punished, says the
Lord. So we can see in the 1st 7
verses that God is talking abouthow the Israelites, the Jews,
the people of Israel and Jerusalem, they are refusing to
repent of their wickedness. They're refusing to get right
with God and to turn away from their sins.

(01:10:43):
They're crimes that they've committed against God.
They're refusing to turn to His law and His word and to enter
into proper relationship with Him.
And in Jeremiah chapter 8, verse8 in particular is where we see
the passage that Daniel was referring to, where it says, how
can you say we are wise for we have the law of the Lord?

(01:11:07):
And then it says when actually the lying pens of the scribes
have handled it falsely. So it's not that the law of the
Lord has been altered by the penof the scribes.
It's been handled falsely, meaning that they've
misrepresented or misinterpreteddeliberately the text of the law
of the Lord when addressing the people of Israel in Jerusalem.

(01:11:30):
There's no reason, looking at this, to think that the text of
the Old Testament was altered bythese lying scribes.
There's nothing at all to suggest that.
It just suggests that they were lying to people and they were
rebelling against God just like all of them, and they refused to
repent, and so they're going to suffer the same punishment as

(01:11:53):
everyone else when God decides to judge Jerusalem.
That's all I'm seeing here. Yeah, in fact.
When you 2 one second, can you 2gentlemen do me a favor?
My wife just brought home some Krispy Kremes.
Can you take over the show for alittle bit?
Sure, I can. Sure.
Sure. But whatever you were going to

(01:12:16):
say, Daniel, go ahead. Yeah.
So basically when it says the lime pen is indicative of
altering the words of God as opposed to just speaking in a in
a in a way to sort of like deceive, for example, not like

(01:12:40):
as you said it not representing the actual text.
Like you can speak and alter thewords in your speech, distort
the words and the meanings through the speech, which is
very different to using a lying pen.
When Jeremiah directly accuses them of using a lying pen, we

(01:13:00):
have to understand that in the context of having the text being
altered. So as opposed to using a
distorted speech, which are two very different things.
So Jeremiah is very sharp in thecriticism.
He uses the lying pen as opposedto distorting the words.

(01:13:21):
Yes, that is true. That is the point I'm trying to
make is that there is no alteration of the law of the
Lord being done as far as its text.
It's just saying that they have mishandled it.
And in order to do a lot of the things that the Israelites and
the Jews were doing at the time,which had a lot to do with the

(01:13:43):
stuff that we see outlined in Leviticus chapter 18 and
Leviticus chapter 20. The practices of the Canaanites
basically where they were practicing all forms of incest
and beastiality and all forms ofhomosexuality and child
sacrifice by literally putting their children on a bail altar

(01:14:03):
and playing really loud music and drums so that parents
couldn't hear the screams of their children as they were
burned alive. That's the kind of stuff the
Jews were engaging in around thetime of Jeremiah.
And that's why God brought in Nebuchadnezzar to judge the
Israelites for what they had done.
I've been reading through Jeremiah the whole book recently

(01:14:25):
as part of my personal Bible time.
And over and over we see in the book of Jeremiah, Jeremiah
telling the Jews and the Israelites to not to listen to
all these so-called prophets andteachers who were telling them
that Oh yeah, you know, Nebuchadnezzar's not even going
to come. But even if he does come, you

(01:14:46):
guys are going to defeat his army in battle and you'll be
fine. And Jeremiah over and over had
to tell people no, that is not true at all.
You didn't get that from the Lord.
The Lord is saying the opposite.The Lord is saying that He's
going to come conquer all of youthrough Nebuchadnezzar as a
judgment for all your sins against God, for all your

(01:15:06):
rebellion against him. He even says that Nebuchadnezzar
is his servant and that anyone who tries to resist
Nebuchadnezzar when he comes to conquer Jerusalem, basically all
manner of horrible things are going to happen to them and
their descendants. But those who submit to
Nebuchadnezzar, when he comes, they'll go into exile, but
they'll be better off, and eventually they will serve their

(01:15:28):
full time in exile and be allowed to come back.
So that's what's going on in thetime of Jeremiah when this whole
book is being written down. So that's the historical
context. What I see is you're making 2
assumptions. 1 is that they are distorting words when they are

(01:15:50):
speaking about the speaking those words in the form of
misrepresenting those written words.
That's your first assumption. And the second assumption is you
assume that the scribes were doing that during Jeremiah's
time. OK, but they.
Were otherwise he wouldn't have mentioned it.

(01:16:12):
Yeah, but when we read verse #8 we get to see a different
picture painted by Jeremiah himself.
So he says, how can you say we are wise?
For we have the law of the Lord,which refers to the past tense,
right? So he's referring to the law of
the Lord, which is with them, which is already documented with

(01:16:35):
them, right? He's so Jeremiah is referring to
something that's already documented in the form of a
book, right? And he goes on to criticize
that, he says, when actually thelying pen of the scribes has
handled it falsely. So he says the lying pen of the
scribes has handled the very book that you're holding in your
hands falsely. The wise will be put to shame

(01:16:56):
because of that. Those wise people you know who
continue to hold that and who, who mishandled it previously,
they will be put to shame. They will be dismayed and
trapped since they have rejectedthe word of the Lord.
So he says the word of the Lord has been mishandled and they
have rejected it. So what kind of wisdom do they

(01:17:16):
have? He questions them.
What kind of wisdom is it when you have mishandled it with your
lying pen? So it's a very different picture
that we that Jeremiah paints andthe way that you are making
those assumptions, actually, I feel I sense a an element of

(01:17:37):
anachronism. You are interpreting the passage
in in Jeremiah's time and distortions with the words, mere
words spoken of the tongue. But the context painted in that
passage is of the past tense andof a documentation, not merely

(01:17:58):
articulating with distorted representations through speech.
Are you suggesting that the wordof the Lord was altered as far
as the text goes in the time of Jeremiah?
I think that's exactly what Jeremiah is referring to.
Previously, before Jeremiah comes along, all of this is

(01:18:21):
happening in Israel. The scribes are involved in
mishandling the words of God when they're documenting the
scriptures. And literally speaking, it's
only after Jeremiah, when the Septuagint is being written down
for the Library of Alexandria, when Ptolemy puts out a project

(01:18:42):
to render those Hebrew scriptures into the Greek
language. So this event is happening
before the Septuagint was written down.
So well done. The all of the fragments that
were there at the time of which Jeremiah was referring to as
being handled falsely is a big, is a big, you know, telling, you

(01:19:09):
know, it's telling something, you know, it's telling something
big that we have to pay attention to.
You're right. It is telling something big.
It's telling us that like everyone else at the time, the
scribes, we're rejecting the word of the Lord and they were
not going with accepting, teaching what it actually said.

(01:19:29):
They were adding their own twistto it.
Because when you're talking about handling a text, that
doesn't necessarily mean that you're altering the text.
It can means that you could be misrepresenting what it says.
What? Why do you think it does not
mean that they are writing it down when Jeremiah clearly

(01:19:50):
accuses them of the lying pen sothey are pinning it down in
terms of the manuscripts? Jeremiah does not say that these
particular scribes are penning the law of the Lord.
He he refers to the past tense like in the past, the activity
that has happened in terms of documenting the scriptures in

(01:20:11):
the past. So it says, how can you say we
have what we are wise for? We have the law of the Lord when
actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely.
So this is something that's already happened.
It's not happening during Jeremiah's time.
Already happened. Yeah, it's been going up for a
long time into his time, ever since they came into the

(01:20:34):
Promised Land and started rebelling against God.
It's why the Jews were under Philistinian occupation for so
long. It's why the Nebuchadnezzar and
the Babylonians came along laterto serve out God's judgment and
take them away from their nation.
It was been going on for a long time.
The rejection of God's Word, thetwisting of God's Word in order

(01:20:57):
to justify their desires and thethings that they wanted to do.
After all, in the book of Judges, we see over and over and
over again, Israel had no king. Therefore, everyone did what was
right in their own eyes. You don't have to misrep.
You don't have to change the text of the word of the Lord in

(01:21:18):
order to do what's right in yourown eyes.
You just have to reject it, which we see right here in the
passage I read. They were rejecting the word of
the Lord. It's a matter of fact.
It's the very next thing that Jeremiah says here in verse 9.
And you also can misrepresent the text to justify the things
that you want to teach and believe, kind of like what

(01:21:39):
you're doing right now. Didn't you?
Now, Daniel, if you don't mind me asking earlier on in the
conversation when you first camein and introduced yourself,
which I'm glad you're here, you are, You're an excellent guy by
the way. But the problem is, is that you
said that Allah actually commanded or instructed you or
perhaps LED you to read the Bible.

(01:22:02):
That it was a a part of something that you should
respect and honor. But the first thing you bring up
is something that you believe somehow derails the Bible.
No, it does not derail the Bibleat all.
What in fact does is it depicts the the reality of

(01:22:24):
documentation. And if we are accepting of this
reality, it actually works in favor of God's religion, because
there are things in the Bible that the Jew Jewish scribes
really got it wrong. If we ought to defend them, if

(01:22:45):
we ought to defend those writings of the Jewish scribes,
we would be landing God's religion in trouble.
But if we do not, but if we elect not to defend those
writings of the Jewish scribes, we will be better off
representing God's religion to the to the entirety of human

(01:23:06):
race. So basically some of the lies
that the Jewish scribes have written must be called out for
what they are and not go not be defended by us.
You know, we are not required todefend them because Jeremiah
himself was not defending them. We have the example of the
prophet right in front of our eyes.
He was not defending those lies that the Jewish scribes were

(01:23:29):
writing down. He called it, He called a spade
for a spade. And we have this example of the
prophet to walk in those footsteps.
So we should, we should do, we should do a, a diligent, A
diligent job like our approach should be that of the prophets,
not of the not of the scribes. So when prophets have criticized

(01:23:50):
the scribes, we go with them, westand with them.
We, we, we also, you know, have that position to share of those
scriptures and we cannot say something contrary to what the
prophets have said. So we have to, we have to stand.
If you don't mind me, in order in order for me to entertain
what's going on here, though, would you be able to give me

(01:24:12):
three major things that they would have lied about or
deceived the Sun according to you, specifically, three major
things. Sure.
Let me, let me just give you 3 three as you as you request
three things. They may not be major at this

(01:24:33):
point in time because I'm not recollecting them on top of my
head, but well, you have. To understand, in order for me
to be able to analyze and do what you're talking about with
helping with the profits and allthat, I have to know what
information would be incorrect and how you came to the
conclusion. Do you follow, Sir?

(01:24:53):
Yeah, I do. So one of the, I mean, I have a
list down a few for you to latchon.
You can you can pick and choose whichever you want to latch on,
right? So right in the right in the
beginning Genesis account, we see the serpent being called out
as the shrewd or as the what's the word that the Bible uses for

(01:25:15):
the serpent, the most shrewd of all the animals that God Lord
had made in the garden, right. That's a, that's a very no wise
understanding of God's creatures.
Certainly the serpent is not theshrewdest of all of them.

(01:25:36):
You can, you can arguably speaking, you can say a magpie
is the most cunning or most sharp or most shrewd.
In fact, the serpent is the dumbest animal that God has made
in, in my opinion, it's the mostdumbest.
But people perceived the serpentin ancient mythologies as being

(01:25:57):
powerful symbol. They took the serpent as a
powerful symbolism, and the Hebrews borrowed these symbolism
from from their ancient counterparts in the lands that
lived in ancient Egypt and even in Canaan from, you know, from
the Babylonians. So they borrowed the symbolism

(01:26:18):
of the serpent being this powerful entity, this shrewd
entity that actually can go and deceive human beings.
But that's just incorrect in any, any, any, any, you know,
angle of attack. That's just incorrect.

(01:26:38):
It could have been a different animal such as a magpie who who
we know is being really smart animal and.
Then, not to be rude or anythingto cut you off, but I mean,
technically, traditionally Christians and some Jews out
there believe that it wasn't just a mere serpent or a mere
snake floating around. They believe it was a

(01:27:01):
manifestation of the devil. So I mean, you could understand
why they would throw the clever and cunning reputation on it,
right? But even even for you to believe
that the manifestation really happened in in terms of serpent,
why would you, why would you believe that when we don't see

(01:27:22):
that happening ever, ever after that like a devil does not
necessarily manifest in terms ofa serpent.
And what was the point of even calling the serpent as the
shrewdest animal that the Lord God had made in the whole of the
garden? That sort of a description,
that's what was given to the serpent is very much serpent

(01:27:48):
orientated rather than having todo anything with the devil.
Because I think at that point intime, the scribes are not even
referring to the devil. It's only the later
interpretations that kind of seethe devil manifest in the form
of a serpent. But the scribes who are writing
that story down, they don't givethis impression to us, to the

(01:28:12):
readers. It is the readers who do EC
Jesus, you know, they read into the text.
They're not doing exegesis because there is no material
there for exegesis. That that's the devil.
It's basically we have to importthe idea of devil into that
passage. Otherwise you have to you're
just looking at the passage as the serpent being the shrewdest

(01:28:34):
of all of the animals that God had made in the garden, which to
me is a direct borrow, borrowinghappening from the ancient
mythologies. Hold on, I'm having a little bit
of delay here. Torah, not Torah, but ttor, did

(01:28:56):
you have something you want to respond to?
Because I've been talking an awful lot and I'm wanting to
look at some of this informationmyself to make sure I give a a
clear answer response to things.Yeah, so am I getting this right
that prophets are more reliable than scribes when it comes to

(01:29:17):
the word of God? Absolutely.
We should follow the prophets. Absolutely.
Prophets are the ones who bring the words of the Lord and
scribes are the ones who handle those words in a wrong way or in
a correct way, You know, or sometimes mistakes can also
happen when you don't have the intent for it because we are

(01:29:40):
human beings when we document orwe can make a mistake, right?
So, so was the case with the Quran when people were
documenting, they were making typo errors and all sorts of
errors. And that's why there there is
canonization happening, right? So that's why there is burning
down happening of the manuscripts that are, you know,
not required any longer, right? So human beings can make a

(01:30:00):
mistake when they're right, not intentionally, but
unintentionally. Mistakes can still happen.
But what Jeremiah accuses of thescribes is for their intentional
mistakes and and for their carefree attitude of borrowing
these literary devices from foreign cultures.
And we also see a great deal of mishandling of the prophets in

(01:30:24):
the history of Israelites. Israelites are quick to point
sins in among their prophets, sothey don't spare Aaron.
They paint a picture of Aaron asof Aaron got involved in the
worship of the calf and the reader of the Bible is given a

(01:30:46):
picture to believe that story that Aaron was somehow involved
in in the worship of the calf. And yet Moses spares him.
He does not give him death penalty as he did to others.
So what we get to read from the Bible is a picture that the
scribes have intentionally painted, which may not be the

(01:31:10):
case. And we have some of those things
clarified in the Quran. The Quran does not, you know,
point at the prophets making those categorical errors, such
as which are, you know, blasphemy in status.
For example, Aaron getting involved in worshipping the
calf. That's not there in the Quran.

(01:31:32):
The Quran says Aaron was a righteous man.
And even David, for example, they stitch up stories about
David, how he sinned by shootingdown the soldier and grabbing
his wife. That story is not not in the
Quran either. The Quran calls David as a
righteous man and a prophet. So the the the scribes, the

(01:31:54):
Jewish scribes did spin a lot ofstories against their prophets
because each time the prophet comes to them, he brings
information that's contrary to their to their presuppositions
and preconceptions or desires. So when a prophet comes, they

(01:32:15):
don't like him straight away. They take offense at the
prophet's teachings. Even Jeremiah was in put in
prison and ultimately killed. Jeremiah ultimately got killed.
I, I have to stop. I have to stop you right there
because my mind is blown. Are you saying that the passages

(01:32:36):
in the Old Testament where the sins of Aaron and the sins of
King David were recorded down, You're saying that that never
really happened because it's notrecorded in the Islamic sources.
Are those corrupted passages according to you?
In my opinion, yes, because the Quran calls David as a righteous

(01:32:58):
prophet and the Quran calls Aaron as a righteous prophet.
Well, I guess that makes sense. I mean you do follow a prophet
who married a girl when she was 6 and consummated the marriage
when she was 9 and that's a OK according to a law.
So I guess that's saying that the.

(01:33:21):
Prophet. Never happened.
I guess that's a an acceptable practice, but I don't know.
Yeah, Long. If you do it, it's in the Hadees
don't lie. He married Aisha when she was 6
and consummated that marriage when she was 9.
He would be in prison today. This is again Mr. Daniel, not to

(01:33:47):
you Daniel, you've, you've jumped into Aaron and King David
and we were still dealing with the topic of the serpent and the
devil. Now, according to the you do
realize that there are scriptures later on in the Bible
that actually link it. But to make things even worse
for you is even your Quran, although it doesn't mention the

(01:34:07):
serpent, it does mention a character by the name of Iblis,
which I believe is referred to as your brain or concept of the
devil, am I right? So you got the devil there,
you've got the link in the Quran.
That is the devil and the Christians obviously believe it
either some could argue that thedevil took upon this form of the

(01:34:30):
creature or possessed it and then went in there and it is
luring. But it's pretty much the same
concept, isn't it, of Eblis? Eblis went in there, he deceived
them and then voila. Now this is what I'm saying to
you, Brett, is we have in the biblical passage we have to

(01:34:51):
import the idea of the devil, which otherwise is not obvious.
What is in fact obvious is of a serpent who is the shortest
animal in the entirety of the God and the God Lord has made
OK, so we have to import now we have to import the idea we have
to do EC Jesus as opposed to exegesis.

(01:35:15):
So that's the that's the difficulty with that passage in
the Bible right now. I just want to be, you know,
answering to some of the objections that Torres bringing
and also Smokey requested me to answer this, the passage 65
first four in the Quran. I I just say I hope you
understand I wasn't trying to berude to you, but we were getting

(01:35:38):
way far ahead into the Bible andI wanted to make sure we at
least responded on the original topic you brought up about the
serpent. But go ahead, you and PTR
Rock'n'roll, take your time. I'd like to I'd like to camp on
his examples of Aaron and Danielsinning not being.
Yeah, because I, I do understandthe passengers with the serpent

(01:36:00):
are difficult to handle. And I can give you more time.
We can, we can catch up on the topic another time because I, I
don't see anyone bringing this up on the Internet just yet.
So it might be new to you. You might need more time to
respond to that serpent issue, which we can do.
Have you? Have you ever heard of the
principle of embarrassment, Daniel?

(01:36:22):
What is it? Tell me what is it?
Well, for the viewing audience at home, the principle of
embarrassment or criterion of embarrassment is a historical
method used to assess the reliability of ancient texts,
especially in biblical studies. It suggests that if a text
includes details that would be considered embarrassing,
unflattering, or damaging to theauthor's reputation, or 'cause

(01:36:46):
it's more likely to be historically accurate because an
author wouldn't likely invent such details.
And it's because of this principle, Daniel, that I
believe that the embarrassing accounts in the Old Testament
about Aaron's sin and Davidson are true.
They really happened because they are embarrassing to the

(01:37:09):
cause of the author. They don't make David, they
don't make Aaron look particularly good.
It's very embarrassing to their reputation in the narrative.
So the fact that it's even recorded most likely means that
it really happened. Because why include something so
embarrassing if it didn't reallyhappen?

(01:37:31):
I mean, this is an excellent point, and I completely, fully
agree with you that the principle of embarrassment is a
real good criteria to establish certain facts.
OK, But that is, that is assuming that Aaron wrote the
text. All right, That's assuming that

(01:37:51):
Moses wrote the text. But Jeremiah is telling us the
scribes have written it with thelying pen, have handled it
falsely. Jeremiah tells it's not Aaron
who's writing it, it's not Moseswho's writing it, it's the
scribes who are writing it. So when scribes have intentions
of allegation or accusation, that must be looked at skeptical

(01:38:17):
lens rather than from the lens of principle of embarrassment.
So why? How come Jesus never questioned
the authenticity of the Old Testament?
Jesus had his own problems that he was dealing with, like his
own acceptance was an issue, unlike Jeremiah.

(01:38:37):
Jeremiah was accepted as a prophet, but Jesus had his own
battles to fight. He wasn't even accepted as a
prophet or as a Messiah. So he, he was battling on a
different, different area like. You, you do realize if you read
the book of Jeremiah that every time he bought brought one of

(01:38:58):
his revelations to the people, telling them that their other
prophets and their rulers were lying to them and that they were
not going to overthrow Nebuchadnezzar.
He was going to overthrow them and haul them off into exile.
You do realize every time he didthat they either tried to kill
him or imprison him, right? He wasn't like any more than

(01:39:18):
Jesus was. Look, at least Jeremiah was.
I see, I see where you're comingfrom, right?
I see where you're coming from. But we also see Jeremiah even in
the prison, the king, I think itwas Oriya, the king who upon

(01:39:41):
hearing the trumpets of the Babylonians marching,
immediately sends his advisors to the prison to go and consult
Jeremiah in the prison, right? So even though, look, Jeremiah
was in the prison, but unlike Jesus, Jesus wasn't in the
prison. Jesus was out and about
interacting with them, facing their wrath on a daily basis,

(01:40:02):
which is even harder to do. And you know, you are not sure
when you will be killed, for example, you know, but at least
Jeremiah is in the safety of theprison, right?
So it's two different things if you want to compare that.
But Jesus certainly had a different battle to fight.
His battles were far worse than the Battles of Jeremiah.

(01:40:26):
And Jeremiah at least had some safekeeping.
And later on when the things became true, you know,
Jeremiah's prophecies were well,predictions were fulfilled right
during when he was alive. And even then, even then the
Hebrews went down to kill him, right?
So these are Hebrews. I mean, Hebrews are a different
set of people. They have a different mindset

(01:40:48):
all together. They recognize their prophets,
but they kill them like John theBaptist.
They recognized him to be the prophet of God.
But they, they handled him, basically they mishandled him
and had the Herod Antipas kill him.
So Hebrews are a different people.
They have a different mindset. They are far more arrogant, to

(01:41:09):
say the least, than the rest of the peoples.
You know, the Gentile world. So we see they have been
mishandling prophets and their words in their history and they
have, they have been on a rampage, you know, to say this,
to say the least, against the prophets.
So. If you think the Jewish people

(01:41:30):
are more arrogant than gentiles are, you really don't know
gentiles very well. I might I might make a mistake,
but the reason why I call them arrogant is the way they have
dealt with their prophets. Like it was not just one
prophet, they were like 10 ends of them addressing them.

(01:41:51):
And even after so many prophets giving them the words of the
Lord, they fall and they are LEDinto exile.
You know, they're brought back. And even then they're doing so
poor and Jesus, John the Baptistcomes along you.
Know Well, part of the yeah, yeah.

(01:42:11):
But part of the reason why, partof the reason why they were so
quick to reject what the true prophets of God were saying is
as we see in the Old Testament, there were other people who
called themselves prophets coming up right beside or right
behind them, telling the people what they wanted to hear, that
they were going to be fine. The Babylonians aren't going to

(01:42:33):
come. Even if they do come, you're
going to beat them in battle. God's with you.
They were telling the Jewish people soothing lies, and that's
why they were so quick to rebel against the true prophets like
Jeremiah, because you had so many people telling them things
that they wanted to hear. So Jeremiah's message was so

(01:42:53):
offensive to them that they had no problems with him being
imprisoned or killed. Gotcha.
I mean, you nailed the point. You nailed it.
Basically it's. Been the same.
It's been the same way since Jesus was on the earth.
Lots of people who call themselves Christians that come
along and tell people what they want to hear.
And so the people who are sayingwhat the truth is, they often

(01:43:16):
get drowned out because there's so many people telling everyone
what they want to hear and not the truth because why?
Is. I would agree.
I agree. I agreed that to be the case
during Jeremiah's time, but not so when During Jesus Jesus time
in the 1st century, we have Johnthe Baptist, recognized a

(01:43:37):
prophet by the Jewish people. Confirm that Jesus was the
Messiah, the one sent by God. Confirm it.
As opposed to alternative narratives during Jeremiah's
time, we have a confirmation during 1st century, which is
very which is which is very new.Like, you know, a confirmation
coming you. Do know I did not say that Jesus

(01:44:00):
had the same problem, right? I was talking about Christians
after him. Jesus didn't really have that
kind of competition because of all the miracles he was
performing. And also John giving the
confirmation, right? John is providing the testimony.
So an acclaimed prophet providesthe testimony that he is the one
sent of God. So Jesus had a very easy

(01:44:24):
induction, so to speak, unlike Jeremiah, who had a difficult
induction but easy life because he was in the prison.
But Jesus had an easy induction,but a difficult life.
You know, it's, it's a two different paradigm.
It's a completely different paradigm.
And but yeah, that's why I say Jewish, Jewish people are
arrogant because they had the confirmation from John the

(01:44:46):
Baptist, who was an acclaimed prophet.
And yet they go on to disbelievein Jesus being their Messiah
because he was telling them things contrary to what they
want to listen or there was an authority confrontation with
them. They did not want to budget
themselves their pride into listening to Jesus, whom they

(01:45:07):
did not consider to be one amongthem or things like that.
So that's the. Problem.
He didn't react very well when he called himself Yahweh.
I know where you, I know where you're coming from, but we will
get to that in the future. But I would like to cover

(01:45:27):
something that you brought up about Prophet Muhammad marrying
a young little girl, six year, 6year old or even a nine year
old, which I believe is not the case.
The Quran does not confirm it. In fact, the Quran has quite an
opposite guidance in the matter of.
As it's in the hadiths and you know that.
Yeah, Hadith are literature thatreally come up couple of a

(01:45:51):
couple 100 years afterwards. They're highly unreliable.
You should not. Believe in that.
Are you sure? Yeah, but the hadith books
showed up. The first hadith book shows up
like in a 200 years time. Like easily 150 years after is
when the first hadith book, it'scalled the Moat Malik.

(01:46:15):
That's the first. Bukhari is not even the first.
All right. So it's something called as Moat
Malik. That's the first book of Hadith
that's coming up after 150 years.
And Bukhari comes up much later.And Bukhari comes up much later,
but comes up with this huge volume of Hadis's, right?

(01:46:37):
Like huge. Like where does he get that
from? Like I'm wondering, I mean, if
you put the books of Hadis together, like the 6th book of
Hadith, and mind you, the first book of Hadis is not among these
six, which the traditionalists claim to be authentic.
So the traditional Sunni source claims the 6th book of hadith to

(01:47:01):
be authentic, and the first bookof hadith is not even in them.
All right. Anyway, that's besides the
point. The 6th book of hadith, which
the Sunni Muslim people claim tobe authentic.
By the way, I should, I should, I should, I should really point
out that not all Sunnis believe in the hadith, OK, Not all of

(01:47:23):
them. There is no commitment to
reading the Hadith. Hadith is not something that
people, Muslim people are reading every day in their life.
That's not the case. It only remains in religious
circles. All right.
But OK, that's that's the main point, in fact.
But the point being, if you put all of these hadith books
together, it comes up 30 times more larger than the Quran.

(01:47:46):
Can you imagine that? 30 times more larger in volume
than the Quran. So I'm wondering what was the
prophet even doing? Did he have a life for himself?
Was he just sitting down and dictating?
Dictating endlessly So people recorded these things.
Like his companions who documented the Quran don't even
document the hadith man. Like they didn't even feel it

(01:48:07):
was important to document. They should be the ones who
should be feeling the necessity of documenting the hadith.
If it was something that God wanted them to do, it wasn't the
case. So these are the stories that
people invent later on, after hundreds of years.
They are tell tales, Chinese whispers.

(01:48:29):
They have no truth in them. I don't.
I don't see a point of believingin them, and moreover, belief in
them is not even required. The Quran says which other
narrative after the Quran will you ever believe?
So the Quran points at itself asthe final word, final doctrine,

(01:48:50):
final book, final narration thatone should believe to be a
Muslim. That's precisely why the
Prophet's companions never documented even a single hadith.
They never documented even a single hadith, but they are the
ones who documented the Quran soyou know, are.
You a Quran only Muslim? Are you a Quran only Muslim?

(01:49:15):
I believe in order to be a good Muslim we have to believe in the
Quran and the books that God gave to the prophets such as
Jesus, David, Moses and the prophets.
But in terms of Islamic, but in terms of Islamic only texts?
But in terms of Islamic texts, are you Quran only?

(01:49:36):
Yes. OK, well that makes more.
Sense even for Christians to be good Christians.
They can be good Christians if they only believed in the
gospels of Christ, not necessarily having to believe in
the apostleship of Paul or his writings.
Not to say that Paul was a bad guy.
I don't say that Paul was in fact good guy.
When I read his some of his letters I made out he was a

(01:49:58):
good. He was a good person.
Paul was a good person. But as a Christian you're not
required to believe in Paul. You can be a very good Christian
if you only believe in the Gospels of Jesus, right?
So we have to understand what isthe primary text, what is the
primary requirement? What is the fundamental
requirement of faith? The fundamental requirement of

(01:50:20):
faith is you believe in the prophet God sends and the words
he gives to that prophet, right?So that's what makes you a
believer. If I believed in Prophet
Muhammad to be a prophet of God and believed in his book, that's
it. I'm not required to believe in
any other literature that comes later on.
And the same would apply to the Christians.
If you believed in Jesus to be the Saint of God and believed in

(01:50:41):
these Gospels, that will make you a good Christian.
OK, so but people complicate things.
People complicate things and it goes downhill from there on.
So all of these stories that have come up about Prophet's
marriage is they're contrary to the Quran's advice.
They're contradict the Quran's advice.
The Quran list lays out a premise for marriage and it says

(01:51:05):
the age for marriage is when youfind in people sound judgement.
That's the criteria the Quran lays down in chapter 4 verse
six. OK so if prophet married a six
year old he couldn't even like what is it?
Where is it coming from? Sorry, it's not Saeed Albukari

(01:51:28):
5134 we read and the Prophet married her when she was six
years old and he consummated hismarriage when she was nine years
old, Hisam said. I have been informed that Aisha
remained with the Prophet for nine years IE till his death.
Yeah, those are the those are the sort of declarative stories
and statements one should not really consider on face value

(01:51:51):
and should always go and validate that with the Quran.
If you go and read the Quran verse chapter 4 verse 6, can you
open that over there? I could give me one second.
You said Chapter 4. Yeah, chapter 4 is where the

(01:52:15):
dictation is being given in in relation to marriage.
Hold on, hold on one second. I'm getting an error loading.
So can I? Can I?
Can I share it from my side? You certainly can.
OK, just give me a moment. Oh, I got it.
Hold on. I got it.

(01:52:37):
I just, it was trying to load too many verses at once, so I
narrowed it. I think this is it.
Yeah. Yeah, this is it.
So I hit the continue there. Continue.

(01:53:00):
Yeah. You said verse 4 now.
Hit the continue there verse 6, verse six.
Hit the continue there. Continue.
OK, I didn't go far enough. OK.
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah.
So verse number six there, it says test the orphan girls until

(01:53:21):
they reach the marriageable age,right.
And if you find and if you find sound judgement in them, then is
the time to return their wealth to them.
And also the bridal gift. The way marriage happens in
Islam in the Quran is you have to give a bridal gift, which is

(01:53:42):
a substantial amount to the bride.
So that's how you win your mate in Islam is a natural religion
and we see this all the time that animals pay with their
blood to win a mate. But in terms of human beings, we
are required to to give a bridalgift, which is a substantial
amount to win the virginity or to win a mate, for example,

(01:54:06):
right. So you have to provide a
substantial bridal gift. And the criteria being when you
find sound judgement in them, that's when you hand over their
finances to them. So they can manage their
finances, they can invest it, you know they can, you know,
it's their gift, you know, they can invest it and they can grow
on it or whatever it is. And also you can return the

(01:54:27):
property to the females. So when you are giving them all
those financial responsibility, you should make sure that they
are capable of handling those financial, you know, financial
investments that they're receiving.
So they can't be a really littlegirls, 6 year old and 9 year
old. That's just not the case.
And even the Quran gives an openinvitation to the peoples, to

(01:54:51):
the societies to test these people.
The Quran in fact, goes on to say issue a certificate of
marriageable age. So the Quran is not saying you
have to marry when a girl is 6 or 9 or 12 or 14, but it says
you have to determine this in your society and issue people
certificates that they're capable of marriage, just like

(01:55:12):
how we do with a driver's license, for example, we sort of
assess young people to be eligible to drive and to use the
motorways responsibly at the ageof 16, for example.
If that is the age when we deem young people to become
responsible, socially responsible, that might probably
be the age of marriage. So the Quran is recommending an

(01:55:36):
age of marriage premised on the criteria of sound judgement
instead of puberty. That's an important point to,
to, to note, right? So a prophet who gives these
teachings could not have marrieda six year old, you know what I
mean? So it's contradictory.
So the Hadis is completely, it'sstory tales, Chinese whispers.

(01:55:58):
It's it's unreliable accounts ofthe Prophet Muhammad, right?
You don't rely on them to get anaccount of Prophet Muhammad.
You have to go back to the Quranand see what the person taught
people, what was his standard, right?
That's where we derive what whatkind of a man he was by reading
his own text, not the text that comes centuries later that go on

(01:56:20):
to explain who he was. That's just an anachronism.
So it it, it just doesn't give you a true impression of who
Prophet Muhammad was from the books of Hadith.
You have to go to the Quran to find out who he was.
Well, the the pushback, the pushback I would give to that is
that you know that yes, the Quran contains the revelations

(01:56:42):
of Muhammad, but it doesn't really tell you much in the way
of the historical background around those revelations.
And you know that the hadifs arethe historical background behind
many of these revelations. And some of the hadifs, the
revelations in particular that are part of the Quran are
recorded so that you know what the historical background

(01:57:04):
leading to that was. So why are you rejecting?
Why are you rejecting the Hadeesas a historical background
behind the revelations of the Quran when the Quran does not
provide its own historical background?
For the most well, there is one other issue I want to throw in
there, TTOR as well as Mr. Daniel, according to these

(01:57:26):
hadees, whether you like them oryou support them or not, Mr.
Daniel, according to sources, itsays that in the context of the
hadith, the narrations from Aisha was from herself.
She actually put that there thatthat was her age.
So I I don't understand why there's an argument here.

(01:57:49):
OK, the reason being when I studied the hadith there are
things that are private to the to the bedroom of the prophet
and I don't think the first ladyAisha was unbashful to go and
narrate that to a bunch of men. Bashfulness in Islam is at a
higher standard. We can see that in among

(01:58:12):
traditional Muslims. So to go out and expect the
first lady Aisha to detail that activity to people who are males
collecting hadith from her is incomprehensible.
That alone tells you that Aisha was not narrating these hadas to
these men, right? In fact, the standard for Aisha

(01:58:36):
being the prophet of God, being the wife of the prophet of God,
was to remain within the house. The Quran has a very clear
expectation from the first ladies of the house that they
are not to socialize with people.
So having those premises for thefirst lady, Aisha, I cannot
imagine a situation when she's interacting with these men who
are out there collecting hadith and she's talking to them

(01:58:59):
endlessly, giving them narrations.
That is just impossible to happen given the fact that she
had a different social, you know, social rules and
regulations around being becoming social with people.
The Quran tells that the wives of the prophet had to be bashful

(01:59:23):
within their homes, you know, and it's not easy for people to
socialize and. It's, I understand all that,
Daniel. I, I understand all what you're
trying to get at that she shouldn't have been able to be
open about all that. Well, according to the source,
she was having discussions with her family members about being
engaged and marrying. And according to this, the

(01:59:46):
nephew of her actually reported all that she had said.
No, You can imagine how much cango wrong during that process.
Are you able to are? You able to read private chat as
well as TTR if you click on private chat?
I put the source and the information.
I could put more in there. I just didn't want to cover the

(02:00:08):
screen when TTR has already got something up there.
Can you guys read that? These narrations come from Aisha
herself, reported the And if you, you know you, you do
understand Chinese whispers, right?
What amount of details can go wrong, how the story can build
and to be entirely different? I mean, we are talking of

(02:00:30):
timelines that are hundreds of years.
Saying there was a lying pen there.
The point being, the point beinggot.
I mean, Brett, the point being? Sorry, Daniel, I had to go
ahead, brother. The point being, the point being

(02:00:51):
prophets companions who documented the Quran, they did
not feel the need to document the hadith.
That tells you that the hadith is not required.
Nice cop out. Do you understand?
So that alone tells you the Hadid is not.
Important thing, this was a consternation as well as

(02:01:13):
engagement and marriage. Obviously the Muslims are going
to record that they're going to record with their prophet when
he got married and all this. So why would you feel that's
incorrect? You don't think these Muslims
were lying whenever they? Record because because those
reports contradict the expectations of the Quran.

(02:01:34):
They the rules that the Quran lays out, those are
contradictory. So if something contradicts with
the Quran, you necessarily reject it because Quran is what
the. Contradict the Quran if the
Quran doesn't even mention anything about it.
Well, the Quran says here the age for marriage is when you

(02:01:55):
find sound judgement in young people.
And for Muhammad, it was age 6. Can I, can I use some common
sense here real quick? I don't let me use some common
sense, Daniel. Daniel, just real quick, let me
use some common sense on us all.I don't do it often, so let me
get it out there, right? Isn't the common sense that

(02:02:17):
because nowadays, in our modern times, Muslims do go with child
brides, that they must mean thatthey sincerely believe that
that's how Muhammad did it, right?
I don't think Muslims are fond of marrying of their daughters
when they're still children. I never saw even one happening

(02:02:38):
in my own lifetime. It might happen in some cultures
where there are wars and things like that.
People don't have a secure meansof subsistence in those places.
You can say things have gotten out of control, but in my
entirety of life, I have never come across a single case where

(02:03:01):
a child bride has been wedded off by a Muslim family.
I never came across that in my own life.
All right, it might be happeningin places like Afghanistan,
which is being subject to war, never ending wars and people
don't have, you know, a safe space to leave and things like
that. Or even in Iraq, for example,

(02:03:23):
which saw brutal wars happen. But in the Islamic world, not
just in modern days, but back inthose days, like even my, even
my grandparents, I don't remember them being child
brides, right? So that's just not the case.
These, these sort of discussionsare facilitated because of this

(02:03:45):
literature, this hadith literature, which is not even an
Islamic source. By the way, the only Islamic
source is the Quran, right? That's the only Islamic source.
And other than the Quran, the Gospel and the the books of the
prophets, those are the Islamic sources, right?
So not the Hadith. The hadith is not an Islamic

(02:04:05):
source. It's basically chit chat of the
medieval times. People chit chatted a lot and
people developed stories. You know, the splitting of the
moon thing that's not even in the Quran.
And the Quran completely says nomiracle will be given to Prophet
Muhammad other than the Quran itself.
So the Quran itself is a miracle.
The moon splitting never happened, but we have very

(02:04:28):
decorative, very elaborate stories about the moon split.
How did that come along? So people in the medieval times,
they had nothing to do, nothing better to do in religion rather
than sitting and inventing thesestories.
So why would I believe in those stories when it's contradicts
with the Quran? The Quran says no miracle will
be given the prophet, but yet you have an elaborate storyline

(02:04:49):
of how the moon split. So which one would you?
Which one would I go with? I go with the Quran or I will go
with the hadith that contradictsthe Quran.
Well, I don't blame you. I don't blame you for throwing
out the hadiths because according to Sayi al Bukhari
volume 7 chapter 425136, it saysthe Prophet said a matron should

(02:05:11):
not be given in marriage except after consulting her and a
virgin should not be given in marriage except after her
permission. The people asked O Elah's
messenger, how can we know her permission?
He said her silence indicates her permission.
So according to Muhammad, if youask a woman to marry you and

(02:05:32):
she's silent and doesn't respond, that's consent.
So look, look, that's the kind of literature that you're
dealing with. So why do you want to trust that
literature to? Be I don't, I don't blame you
for wanting to throw it out. I'm a Christian, I don't even
believe in Islam, so I don't blame you for wanting to throw
out all of the authentic it needs to talk about Muhammad's

(02:05:53):
real history behind his revelation.
If you are a true Christian, if you are a true Christian, you
have to believe in Muhammad because Jesus foretold of him.
Jesus spoke of a future spiritual teacher who is a
prophet and who he said will teach you into all the truth.
So you're saying that the Holy Spirit is Muhammad?

(02:06:16):
Because I'm telling you right now, the Holy Spirit didn't bed
a six year old and then consummate it when she was nine.
That never happened. No, you don't have to believe in
the Hadees. You have to believe in the
Quran. OK, It's two different things,
so you should not. Christians don't have to
Christians don't have to believein the Quran.
They have to go with their own book according to your.

(02:06:37):
Religion because your own book says that you have to believe in
a spiritual teacher that is going to come and teach you all
the truth. You're referring to passages
about the Holy Spirit, and Muhammad is not the Holy Spirit
because in order for that to be the case, Muhammad would have to
be omnipresent and Muhammad would have to be inside all
believers. And to associate such attributes

(02:07:00):
to Muhammad is shirk. It's blasting.
So if you open chapter one 1 John chapter 4.
I already know the verses. I'm not going to even open it
right now because. I know it's about the Holy
Spirit, but you have not. It's about the Holy Spirit.
No, I can understand the concerns that you have not to

(02:07:20):
open them. If you open 1 John chapter 4, it
clearly tells this Holy Spirit, this Spirit of God is a prophet,
and it gives you a test to test this man, whether he's from God.
So once you have tested him for the criteria that Christ lays
down, then you have to acknowledge this to be the

(02:07:43):
Spirit of God whom Christ prophesied.
So 1 John chapter 1, John chapter 4 lays out a test.
It says test of the spirits whether they are from God.
If they confirm to you that Christ has come in flesh from
God and Jesus is the Christ, then that spirit is from God.

(02:08:03):
So Prophet Muhammad comes along and confirms that.
He says Jesus indeed was the Messiah sent by God and he
passes the test. So therefore you have to believe
in Prophet Muhammad as being foretold by Jesus himself.
And Jesus went on to say that the Kingdom of God will be taken
from you Israelites and they sawtheir death at the hands of the

(02:08:24):
Romans in 70AD. And Jesus said your Kingdom will
be given to a different people, and the different people are the
Arabs whom God gave victory against the Romans, fulfilling
the prophecy of Prophet Daniel, which in fact Jesus wanted to.
Jesus came to fulfill, but it was deferred, It was delegated
to a future prophet because the Hebrews were not ready for it.

(02:08:44):
That's when Jesus says, I have many things to tell you, but
you're not ready for it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of
truth, he will guide you into all the truth.
And he becomes the cornerstone, the stone with which you measure
justice and with which you measure righteousness.
And ever since then, Islam has been a mountain in the Holy
Land, having defeated Rome so. Clearly, Rome's false too.

(02:09:09):
That's not a surprise. Yeah, Rome.
Rome was defeated by by Islam. So Islam became the 5th Kingdom,
the rock Kingdom, the God of theheaven, carved out of his own
hand. Yeah, I'm not really buying that
one. Yeah, why not?
Because Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, prophet Daniel

(02:09:34):
was talking to him and called him the gold head.
And the Persian Empire who subsumed the Babylonians became
the silver chested empire and then came along the Grecian
Empire, the bronze empire that defeated the Persians.
And then came along the Romans who took over the Greek Kingdom,
the iron feet. And then comes the time when

(02:09:56):
Islam comes along and defeats Rome, the iron Feet, and becomes
a mountain in the Holy Land. That's not talking about wrong.
1400 years. That's talking about the coming
Kingdom of God. Yeah, that's the Kingdom of God.
No, it's not. You are so twisted in scripture
it's not even funny. Who actually is?

(02:10:17):
It is kind of funny. Who do you think defeated
Romans? Excuse me?
Who do you think defeated Roman Empire?
Well, you'll have to explain what that means, because
technically, the Vatican is the remains of that empire.

(02:10:40):
No Romans got defeated in the Levant in 7th century.
In 634, in the Battle of Yarmouk, the Byzantine forces
faced a defeat at the hands of the Islamic Caliphate, the
Rashidun Caliphate, and in 1453 the remainder of the Roman
Empire in Constantinople was defeated by the Sultanate of
Ottomans. The Islamic Ottoman Sultanate

(02:11:02):
defeated Constant and took over Constantinople in 1453, putting
an end to the Roman Empire and the Roman Emperors.
So Constantine the the final Roman Empire.
That form of the Romans, yes. So after that, again represents
what's left of that. Non existent the Roman Empire

(02:11:23):
just this is shattered and crushed into pieces just as the
prophecy says that this rock that God carves out of his own
hand will crush these these empires of the past and you
know, replaces them in the Holy Land and becomes a mountain
there. And we have seen this for 1400
years. So God gives people who believe

(02:11:44):
in the Quran the Kingdom over the Holy Land.
Yeah, you are definitely not applying that scripture
correctly. Unfortunately, Brett, I am out
of time for my usual live streamhours, so I'm going to head and
cut out of here and get on with my time doing the other things I
need to do. But thanks for having me on the

(02:12:05):
show, Brett. Oh yeah.
Thanks to have you around there.Oh, sorry, Daniel.
Well, Daniel, I'm still going toremain.
You can hang out with me and allthat.
Sure, I'm going to hang on here.All right, so thank.
You Thor, it was it was a very good discussion with you and
hopefully we'll see you in the future.
And if you want to debate me on any subject or topic, or even

(02:12:27):
just have a discussion, a friendly discussion like you had
here, what I'll do is I'll give you my e-mail that you can
e-mail me anytime and we can we can we can chat about it.
So just bear with me while I provide you my e-mail.
So there you go in the private chat.
That's my e-mail tour. And feel free to e-mail me

(02:12:49):
anytime on any subject, any topic I would love to discuss
with you, not necessarily debate.
I want to be friendly with my fellow Christian brothers.
So because the Quran says the Christians and the Muslims are
the friends of each other, and the Quran promises salvation for
everybody who believes in one God and believes that God will

(02:13:09):
judge them and believes in doingthe right thing, being a good
neighbor. Just as much as Jesus taught us
to be a good citizen and a good neighbor, if we did this, we all
can be living eternally with Almighty God.
God willing, so can you, gentlemen.
Can you gentlemen post your links also to your YouTube
channels into the comments for people who've been listening?

(02:13:35):
Yeah. Give me one second.
All right. Just got to Where'd it go?
You know, do you want to post your links?
Can go check you out sub the allthat good stuff.

(02:13:57):
I mean, emails are cool, I love keeping in contact with people,
but folks are going to want to know where your channel is.
That's how usually 90% of socialmedia likes to interact with two
people's channels or their X accounts, things like that.
You get it right? Yeah.
So let me share my channel if you don't mind, on the screen

(02:14:20):
here. Sure, go ahead.
I'll just just bear with me. Well, I tried to watch out with
bears. I hear they can maul you now.
You didn't get the joke, did you?
That was pretty funny too. So if you want to include that,

(02:14:41):
so that's my channel guys, it's called Prophet Daniel has
spoken. I'm not a prophet.
So you should not misunderstand that to mean that I'm claiming
to be a prophet. I'm just impressed with Prophet
Daniel from the Bible. So I named my channel after him.
Prophet Daniel has spoken. That's my channel.
I've got around like 108 videos there.

(02:15:02):
There's a lot of material for you to sync in, but the
subscribers are too small, so 58only until.
So don't. Feel free to hit the
subscription button and like thevideos and share it and let me
know what you think in the comments section.
So guys, I'm sure you will take home a lot if you listen to all

(02:15:23):
of these videos and hit the bellbutton to to be to become aware
when I'm going live so you can join live and interact with me
so. Thank.
You regret for giving me the opportunity to share my channel
on your screen. Right on, right on me.
Fix your screen a little bit. I don't know what's going on in

(02:15:45):
there. What is up with that?
Oh, there we go. Now it's fixed, can I offer you
a suggestion? That way you don't get yourself
in any kind of trouble whenever you're doing live shows in the
future with people. Because I'm totally patient.
I totally enjoy good conversations, especially open

(02:16:05):
discussion. I prefer that over debates.
When you're talking with people,try to stick with the topic that
you originally bring up. If you bring up too much stuff,
people start becoming impatient and irritated and you might
start getting screamed at. And that's not just for
religious rooms, that's also fornon believer rooms and all that.

(02:16:26):
So try to stick with the topic and then ask if it's OK to move
on to another one. For me, I'm totally open.
You can talk about whatever you like in my room.
I'm just saying for other peoplethey might get pissed.
No, that's a very good advice and I'm taking it on board
immediately. So that's a very good advice.
And you, you made it very easy to me.

(02:16:46):
You said to ask the permission. Can we move on to a different
topic? That's it.
That's something that I have notbeen practicing.
But that's a very good advice from you and I'll take it
straight away and I'll try to remember it to to use it
appropriately. So thank you so much, Brad.
Yeah. We got somebody down here that's
called Brett Keene's biggest fan.
I'm going to have to cover the screen because I don't know who

(02:17:08):
this is. They might pull their their
penis out or something, and we can't have that.
So hold on a second. Hello.
Brett Keene's biggest fan. I'm sure you are.
What's up, Rigger? OK, Very nice.
Thank you. OK.
I think he called me a racial name.
Goodness gracious. That wasn't very nice.

(02:17:30):
OK, that's an atheist for you folks.
The rational, critical thinking humanists that they are.
So you back with me? You did you hear what he called
me? Unfortunately, you're muted,
Sir. Oh, really?
So bad? Yeah.

(02:17:54):
Well, he called me a racial slur.
I don't know if you heard that or not.
I mean, people should really feel to come and have a nice
civil conversation rather than calling out names, which is
which is really not modern in a in a way, we live in a modern
world where we have the opportunity to interact with

(02:18:16):
people. So you got to make use of it so.
Well, unfortunately, atheists are not very fond of myself as
well as Muslims and Christians, and I don't think that they're
too nice to Jews either. So they kind of throw us all
into the Abrahamic religion, saythey hate us all.
Goodness gracious, it's rough, isn't it?

(02:18:36):
I understand that SO and some ofthe things they do also has
reasons with the people of religion because the people of
religion are so indisciplined that we keep fighting so much
and we keep imposing our judgments on each other so much

(02:18:58):
that it is rightfully it is rightful to think that somebody
is getting upset with all that behavior that we do or we put
out, right. So people of religion themselves
are to blame to certain extent because their behavior is not
the nicest of all. To be honest with you.
In the past we have been judgingprophets.

(02:19:20):
Now we judge each other. We have, we divided the religion
of God against his advice and expectation into splinter groups
and we keep judging each splinter group and condemning
them to hell fire. So this is not the nicest of the
behaviors that people of religion put out, and rightly
so. An observer goes like, oh, what
is this? And they they'd lose their

(02:19:42):
brains on it. And I can understand where they
come from. It's partly people of religion
to blame and. But yeah, everything is there.
So people are bright enough to make good judgements for their
businesses, for their personal career.
So should they also be wise and shrewd to decide what is good

(02:20:06):
for them with God, right? Well I agree with you, I'm
personally not one of those typeof people that waste my time
with condemning people to hell. It would be worthless of me to
do it anyway. I'm what you refer to as an
annihilationist. Yeah.

(02:20:27):
Are you familiar with that theological position?
Now go ahead and expand it please for me.
Annihilationist is a person who believes that Hell is the
destruction and death of the soul.
I don't. Are you still there?
Oh, he took off. He might have went to go poop.
Did you? Were you able to hear what I

(02:20:47):
said? Yeah, yeah.
I'm, I'm, I'm just here. I'm listening.
I I basically, I believe that the first death is the physical
body. You know, ass is the ass is
dust, the dust, and the second death is the death of the soul.
I don't know if you go along with this because it's a Bible
quote, but yeah, as you probablyremember, Jesus said don't fear

(02:21:10):
he who can just destroy the body, but fear he who can also
destroy the soul. Obviously my theological
position isn't very, how shall Isay, loved amongst Christians
either. They go for the Dante's Inferno,
you know, the torture chamber with the devils and all that
kind of stuff. But me, I believe the soul will
eventually disintegrate or be annihilated.

(02:21:38):
If you disagree with that, that's fine.
It's all good. I'm not going to get a make a
sad or something. So what's the secret behind your
background? Like why do you darken yourself
with with the kind of the background that I get to see
from you? Well, the reason why is I used

(02:22:01):
to do videos all the time where I showed my background, but
there's a lot of unfortunately, although I got a lot of fans and
also people who love me, I have people who would like to cause
me harm and destruction and all that.
And if they see an address in the background or they see, you
know, one of my kids run by or afamily member, I don't want them

(02:22:21):
to see that. I've had a lot of problems.
If you type my name into YouTube, you're going to see
that I've got a huge hater base and fan base.
I get around. Whoa, whoa, OK, you.
Think I got it bad Muslims get treated pretty disrespectful on
the Internet as well, as you probably know that.

(02:22:43):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there was this guy the
other day, a Muslim guy come onto my channel and abused me
with swear words like, like, so you have these extremists in
every religion. And you know, the extremists are
quite damaging to the religion and to God.

(02:23:05):
Extreme positions are very unhelpful to to God and to
religion as such. But you can't help it.
People are people, you know, youcan't help it and only God can
look after them so. You have to keep.
They have to behave good. They have to behave in.
Mind, you got to keep in mind when you do live shows or

(02:23:28):
interaction like this, you're not just dealing with people who
have disagreeable religions. You're dealing with psychopaths
and sociopaths, you know, crazy people and all that.
So you got to always keep that in mind when talking to folks.
I've talked to some people who have admitted to be in
psychopaths, but they were very articulate.
You look nice in the moment because they were on medication.

(02:23:51):
Absolutely so, So yeah, the world is the way it is, but it's
also gotten a lot safer. We are not living the times of
Jesus where he was really afraid.
Every, every now and then, we, we sit in our spaces from in our
homes and we do this. We, we, we are much safer today,

(02:24:15):
so to speak, you know, than putting ourselves in the shoes
of the prophets who really had to endure quite, quite an amount
of stress and stressful life, which was not easy for Jeremiah
to be sitting in the prison and expecting a death sentence to
come out anytime wasn't easy from him for him.

(02:24:35):
And ultimately he gets killed. But you can imagine the sore
situation for the prophets, which is very, which is very,
you know, not appealing to the to the human being like, but
somehow that still becomes a practice among religious
communities that good people suffer so much at their own
hands, let alone suffering from foreigners.

(02:24:58):
You know what I mean? So a prophet is not called a
prophet in his own hometown. Jesus says so let, let alone
from suffering from foreigners, their own people become such an
obstacle, such an hindrance, such a challenge that you know,
people have to suffer because oftheir own people.

(02:25:19):
That's just a sad situation for human beings.
It is, it is. You had a you'd said that and I,
I find it very interesting. Oh, Smokey, if you'd like to
come in and chat with us, you'remore than welcome.
I understand that you probably felt like things would be
uncomfortable with you and TTOR at the moment, I get that.

(02:25:40):
But you are welcome to come in and chat if you want.
So Daniel, you had said that youyou consider Christians brothers
and sisters. I'm not accustomed to a Muslim
saying that. Are you staying out in another
podcast with a guy named BrotherMaverick and the Muslims that
would come in the room, they weren't very, they're not, they

(02:26:00):
weren't considerate and respectful like you have been.
I, I tried with all my might, the way I'm talking to you now,
being loved, being respectful and open minded.
But man, they were pissy. So why do you think it is that
you're so different than some ofthe Muslims that we've engaged,
unfortunately? Well, Muslims also come in

(02:26:24):
various backgrounds and modes ofoperation, indoctrination,
extremism, fanaticism, and moderates and people who are
really truth seekers. So you have all of these
different types of Muslims and they have very varying

(02:26:46):
experiences of learning their own religion and learning the
larger world. So there is all this, these
religions are a mishmash of all of these individuals who come
from different spectrums. The same applies to Christianity
and also to Judaism or to any ofthe group, for example.
And people are interacting, theycome with their own personality.

(02:27:09):
Some of them are rogue, some of them are most gentle.
So you you get to deal with all of these people and experience
their reactions to some of the things that go on in the world.
And some of those things are notnice and some of those things
are civil. So, you know, that's that's just
the way life is. And I do now recollect when you

(02:27:29):
mention Maverick that you were on his channel.
Now I recollect that that you were with Maverick the other the
day that was talking to you guys.
Yeah. And ever since then, I'm waiting
for Maverick to to, you know, have a conversation with me.
But maybe he's just running busywith his own life and hasn't

(02:27:50):
found the time to talk to me. But yeah, I would love to love
to talk to Maverick. And now I recollect that you
were on this channel or so. So yeah, it's good.
Oh dear, I just read some reallyhardcore news that personally
affects us both. You want to hear about it real

(02:28:12):
quick? Yeah, go ahead.
Apparently somebody that's in high authority in Russia was
talking some some jive ass trash.
So Donald Trump has put two nuclear submarines and some of
the regions around Russia and has declared that if any they do
any of the things that they talked about, then he is more

(02:28:35):
than prepared to take us into a nuclear war.
I thought you might want to knowthat because if I get blown up,
you get blown up too, and I kindof like you.
So yeah. So where are you reading this on
the news? I'm actually it's AI follow
Trump on truth Social and also that's with Elon Musk.

(02:29:00):
So whenever he typed crazy shit I always get a notification and
Trump he 90% of the day is always saying something crazy.
So I'd try to keep. Yeah, it's also on the news.
I can see on the news as well. It's it's come up on the news.
Yeah, well, let's hope that thatdoesn't happen.
I don't have anything personal against Russia.

(02:29:20):
I don't want to blow them up, and I sure as hell don't want to
die either. So hopefully these idiots and
politics straighten their shit out, you know what I mean?
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, yeah, I think nuclear,
nuclear, nuclear weapon is, is a, is a sure deterrence to

(02:29:42):
everybody, even to those who useit, like who would want to use
it? It's a deterrence for sure.
So people are not that dumb, especially the capitalists.
They're not that dumb to lose their fortunes.
So they will not, they will not blow up.
I think as long as the world remains with capitalists, they
will ensure that, you know, their assets are intact and they

(02:30:05):
won't get blown away. You know what I mean?
You know, you were talking earlier about how you were
talking earlier about how dangerous it was in ancient
times. And I agree with you.
But I think that the people backthen had more balls.
And the reason why I say that isbecause back in the day when
somebody messed with you or gaveyour family any issue, you take

(02:30:25):
them out in the field and you take them out man to man.
But nowadays we got these assholes.
You can just push a button and end it all for everybody.
That sucks. That's weak, you know what I
mean? Perfectly correct.
I'm going to agree with you withthe with the kind of statement
that he just made. People had more balls that they
would show up on the battlefieldand they would not really cause

(02:30:48):
a great collateral damage to innocents and civilians.
But these days the battles are different.
They're fought from within the communities and suburbs, causing
a lot of collateral damage and causing a lot of innocent
deaths, which was not the case previously.
People would take a sword, take their shield and come onto the
battlefield and fight, live or die, you know what I mean?

(02:31:10):
It was completely a different world, much better world as
compared to today because of inventions, the bombs and the
planes and all of that sort of stuff.
So the scientific inventions have not been really gracious to
humankind. I agree and I absolutely agree.
They those were real men and women back in the day.

(02:31:30):
They they took, you know, they took their man out eye to eye,
face to face. There was no, oh, I'm going to
hide in the shadows and push little buttons and stuff and
make everybody go away thing. That's nonsense.
No respect there whatsoever. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you need the guts to come and wage of warfare.

(02:31:51):
Come and fight for yourself. I mean, even today, if if
democracies put out this election mandate that, you know,
if you want to fight a war, you have to go really to the
battlefield with the swords and fight it out for yourself, that
would be so much better. But far from happening because
the warfare has just taken an entirely different direction and

(02:32:14):
route. So there's there's no returning
from that position. So.
Yeah, I don't think Americans are up for getting them to field
battles anymore. We've become too obese and too
comforted. We're we can barely get up to
find a remote control nowadays. It's rough.

(02:32:37):
So tell me more about yourself. You fascinate me.
You're an interesting person. So yeah, I mean, I was telling
you my story of upbringing and reading the scriptures and I
told you briefly the story of Hulk Hogan, how I related to
Christians in America. And my very first visit to

(02:33:00):
America was in 2009 or 8, maybe,maybe 2008, late 2008 is when I
first visited America. And as soon as I got went to
planes in America, like I landedin America, then I think I
landed in Minnesota. I think that's where I land 1st.

(02:33:22):
And then I took a plane into North Dakota, a very frigid
place. But yeah, on that plane, I think
I met a few Americans and the first thing I had was an
interaction of faith. You know, the first, the first
ever conversation out of my fascination to meet Americans

(02:33:44):
and talk to them about religion was I, I remember having an
interaction of faith on the plane, on the small little plane
that flew into North Dakota. And there were two Americans,
males that were sitting next to me, and we were chatting about,
and I was telling them about theQuran, how the Quran is, you

(02:34:04):
know, or what's the background of it, how it's the word of God.
And yeah, I remember that very vividly in my brain.
I can never forget that conversation that I had with the
Americans the very first time I met them on the plane.
And yeah, after that I visited America a few more times and I

(02:34:25):
stayed in San Diego for quite some time.
And I made very good friends with lots of people at the
Jehovah's Witnesses. They were meeting with me
regularly there. Every weekend, every Sunday I
would meet up with them. And there were a few more, few
other churches that I visited very frequently.
The one I lived very next to next, like next door church,

(02:34:47):
there was a Lutheran Church thatI visited there.
And there was a very good pastorthat I met there, and she was a
woman pastor, and I would frequently visit her and have
chats about interfaith and learnfrom them, their faith, and
teach some of what I knew of Islam back then.

(02:35:08):
And yeah, I mean, I really enjoyed my time in America and
meeting people there. Much more friendlier.
Even atheists were very friendlier back then.
Maybe they've gotten bad now, but back then they were very
friendlier. I had a friend at my workplace,
Bob, a very, very good man, an atheist.

(02:35:29):
But these days I think he is inclined towards having faith,
OK, which is a good thing. But back then he was an atheist.
And we would usually pick up on conversations after the work and
we would go together snorkeling in, in, in the La Jolla coast,
you know, Cove. And yeah, we, we, we had some

(02:35:50):
nice time with, I had some nice time with my friend Bob there.
And we would chat about God respectfully.
And he would always tell me, Masood, we don't know how
hydrogen came and how the gravity came and how the weak
forces and the strong forces came.
Once we know that we wouldn't need God anymore.

(02:36:11):
But recently, my recent chats with him, I still call him
sometimes. So in my recent chat with him,
he acknowledged Masood. We still don't know where
hydrogen and gravity came from. So therefore I want to believe
he said to me. So that was fun chatting with
him and hopefully he's a believer.
But yeah, I don't know. I can't tell you that for sure.

(02:36:33):
But yeah, let's, let's pray. Let's pray to God that God
brings him along into the fold of faith and belief, you know,
and I believe that I believe because the Quran says so.
The Quran says in chapter 2, verse 62 and also in chapter 5.
There's a verse number I don't recollect on top of my head, but

(02:36:56):
there's a verse that repeats itself in the Quran.
It tells anyone from the Muslims, from the Christians,
from the Jewish people and from non Abrahamic people anyone, any
human being who believes in one creator God and believes that
this creator God will judge themfor their actions and lives.

(02:37:20):
A life of kindness to others will not have to fear on
judgement day nor grieve becauseGod be sure God is going to give
them their rewards. So I believe salvation is for
everybody who believed in one God and that he, he, they will

(02:37:41):
be judged by this one God and conduct themselves well.
As long as they live planet earth, they will find eternal
life with Almighty God. That's my belief rooted in the
Quran. And therefore the Quran also
treats fellow Christians as friends.
So Christians and Muslims, there's nothing like it in the

(02:38:03):
world. There's no other religion after
the 1st century. Like for example Sikhism is a
religion that came along in 1600s but doesn't even have to
say anything at all about Jesus Christ.
So Quran is the only faith that proclaims Jesus to be the
Messiah sent by God and as such is a complementary faith to

(02:38:26):
Christianity and a friendly faith to Christianity.
And Christians and Muslims are expected to be friendly and
brotherly. And yeah, that's, but
unfortunately the world doesn't function like that.
And Muslims and Christians try to beat up each other like in
MMA on their debates. And that's, that's very harsh of

(02:38:47):
how they're treating each other.They can grow a little bit more
and learn to treat, treat each other a bit better, bit
friendlier, bit brotherly. That's all good.
I mean, it works out good to theGod of the to the glory of the
God and his Kingdom. So we have to learn better
behavior. Christians and Muslims and then

(02:39:07):
Jewish, Jewish people will will catch up if we if we showed them
how to behave good, they will catch up.
So. So that's what I believe.
Yeah. You want to say something?
Go ahead and say I've been talking for a while now.
Well, I appreciate what you're saying and I, and I think that
you're definitely agreeable and in your point there and

(02:39:30):
everybody getting along. I've been, I've been on social
media off and on for like 20 years and I've always tried to
be kind and respectful. But like I told you earlier,
there's people that are, there'sinfighting between Christians,
there's Muslims fighting Muslims.
I mean, even you said a Muslim came in, cursed you out for no

(02:39:50):
damn reason whatsoever. I mean, we can't even clean our
own houses and we're supposed tofix the backyard too.
I, I don't know my my thought isthis and it might be a little
critical and rough. I have absolute trust in God,
but I don't have the 1% trust inhumanity.
Humanity is has turned into something.

(02:40:12):
This is not acceptable at this point.
I like you though. Thank you and I like you.
I don't know the solution, I don't know the solution.
You and I are very nice people. Obviously, if you're like this
all the time and all that, I can't understand possibly why

(02:40:33):
anybody would be rude or hatefulto you.
Same for myself, though I don't understand.
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely hopefully.
I mean, let us hope that streamslike this will sort of paint a
good picture out there for people who are listeners and

(02:40:53):
viewers of the stream. They might take a theme or two
away with them and try to be nice after this if they were not
nice before. So I think more good content on
the Internet will sort of encourage people to be good and
learn good, rather than the sortof content that goes on where
people are ripping each other down, shredding each other down,

(02:41:16):
calling names. Basically, people are like
sponges. They learn what they see and
they imitate what they learn. So we have to put out more good
content so people can learn the good behavior and treat each
other a bit more better than they would treat otherwise, you

(02:41:37):
know? Well, the problem is, is that
YouTube and ex social media and Facebook, they reward
controversy and drama. They reward people with movies.
For some, you know how you said you love Hulk Hogan and all
that? Well, people like a good fight.
They like to see bloodshed and destruction.
I mean, just look at American movies.

(02:41:58):
We ain't happy unless we see at least 10 people slaughtered in
the film. So that's what we're up against
now. We might read a few here and
there with kindness and kisses and all that, but I don't know
about the majority. So how, how, how far?

(02:42:19):
How far along do you intend to stay?
Or is it a different time that we can latch on another time?
Or what do you reckon? Well, I've been known to go
quite a few hours. I've been known to be short.
That depends on who the person is I'm talking to.
I don't mind if it's one-on-one or if it's a group or whatever.

(02:42:39):
And you seem like an interestingperson.
I figure when you're done, you're done.
OK. So I will call my shots here and
I will. I will, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm
willing to engage with you in the future so we can write back
to each other on emails and if we have a topic that you would

(02:43:00):
like to talk about, we could talk about it and in the future
episode, if you don't mind, well.
That'd be great. One of the things that you
brought up is fascinating, but Ididn't want to keep you on the
hot fire the entire conversation.
I wanted to get to know you a little bit, but you mentioned
Jeremiah and the and with the lying pen.

(02:43:23):
And remember you'd said at some point time you were going to
give me specifics about what I should perceive as lies and what
is truth. That'll help out with the
analysis. Sure, sure.
So yeah, sure we will talk aboutit once I once I put out some
preparation, I will write to youan e-mail and we can set up a
stream on that and we can talk about it.

(02:43:46):
Do you like the idea? That sounds good.
And remember, I'm always up for open discussion.
It doesn't have to be a screaming match or a debate or
anything. I'm willing to hear you out.
Got you. Yeah, I appreciate it.
From the bottom of my heart, Brett, you have a good day and
God bless you and your family and me and my family as well.

(02:44:10):
So I do have one last question for you.
You informed me that you used tohave a good friend, I believe
his name was Bob, an atheist. What happened with that?
It sounds like that's past tense.
No, he, he, I think I've not spoken to him for a few months
now, but he actually, I don't know, I should say this on the,

(02:44:33):
on the, on the stream here, but let's pray to God that, you
know, he looks after him and, and he brings him to be a
believer, right? So the last time I talked to
him, he said he, he wants to be,he was not comfortable being a
Muslim believer. And I assured him to be a
Christian believer or some sort of believer at least, but not an

(02:44:56):
atheist. So I I requested him to believe
in the creator God who gave him life and he will be brought back
to his creator God. And I requested him to believe
in him and thank him for having given him life.
So not necessarily a Muslim or aChristian if he does not want to

(02:45:17):
be 1, but yeah, so. I don't understand the point
that he made though, where if weunderstand gravity or hydrogen
and all this I believe is what you said, then then we don't
need the concept of God. Even if you knew how gravity
actually worked and all this, itstill doesn't answer the

(02:45:39):
question of its origin, how it came into existence, especially
if we go with The Big Bang theory.
So basically there was the God of the gaps was a big thing, an
objection that atheists and agnostics and skeptics basically
brought that argument as a big thing that we don't we we need

(02:46:00):
God because we can't explain certain things.
So that became popular some timeago and even even today people
think that's, I think people believe because they can't
explain it all. And if you explained it, you
don't need the agency perceptionany longer.

(02:46:21):
So you don't need the belief anylonger.
So that's the deduction that they draw from the God of the
gaps, you know, argument, argument.
But I understand Bob was made tobelieve that argument was legit
argument. And from that premise, he was
arguing, yeah, we haven't learned about how hydrogen came

(02:46:45):
from or gravity came from or theweak and the strong force came
from. So therefore, he's he thinks he
should now believe because he is.
He's inching towards his end days, so to speak.
He's lived his life, he's had a lifetime, and he's found no
answer. So he somehow feels it's the

(02:47:09):
right time to believe for him. So I can understand where he
comes from. And I said it's important that
he believed because God gave himlife and he enjoyed it and he
should be grateful to God that he got that life from Almighty
God. So he should at least say thank
you to God. And that would be
acknowledgement that God the Creator exists and that would

(02:47:30):
pave the way for him to attain salvation and eternal life.
So I hope he believes and not being agnostic or doubtful about
the Creator. But yes, we can just only pray
and hope so. Well, I hope so for sure, but

(02:47:50):
think about it for a minute. I don't know, when I when I'm
having discussions, I usually try to entertain what the person
saying to see where it follows up its conclusion.
And let's say today you were given some kind of mathematical
equation that that told you exactly how hydrogen can be made

(02:48:11):
and come into existence. And what way does that discredit
or invalidate Allah or God or Jesus, whatever, whatever
representation he put? If you knew today where hydrogen
came from or why it exists, how does that invalidate God?
Not to me. I would see that as as good as

(02:48:35):
how we have understood other things, even maybe the creation
of planet Earth or the, the origins of species or even the
kind of things we make from our own intelligence, the capability
that we have achieved in terms of technology and in terms of

(02:48:56):
innovative development and all that sort of stuff.
I, I would not necessarily interpret that to disqualify
God, but that was the position where some atheists come from.
But to me, that's not that. That has not been an issue.
Knowledge does not falsify God. Knowledge only confirms God's

(02:49:20):
position as the one who ushers knowledge and gives us the
capacity to understand some of some of His creations, so that
that might also include hydrogenand gravity in the weak and the
strong force. Well, one of the things that
kind of annoys me about the whole God of the gaps thing is I

(02:49:42):
feel as though it's a deliberatemisrepresentation of all of the
Abrahamic faith groups. And the reason why is because it
was Christians, Muslims and evensome Jews and pagans who you
actually even came up with the concept of science.
Most of your revolutionary scientist of all times, a
majority of them were faith-based.

(02:50:05):
They believed in God. Einstein even said the more I
study science, the more I believe in God.
So when atheists come along acting like they're the
Champions of science, it just pisses me off a little.
Yeah, true, true. They're trying to hijack the
whole situation of science. While initial scientists have

(02:50:26):
been believers both from the Muslims and from the Christian
backgrounds, it's believers whomGod blessed with this knowledge.
So basically they were believers.
All the inventions, the the Thomas Alva Edison who invented
electricity, the electric bulb, he was a believer.
So all of these famous people who made some fascinating

(02:50:46):
inventions that gone to benefit huge humanities, you know, you
know, for generations and millions of people benefit out
of their inventions. They were believers.
They were not disbelievers because of those inventions.
Yeah, I believe, Daniel, that people of faith are more
encouraged to do proper science and a non believer and I'll,

(02:51:07):
I'll explain why. A person who believes that a God
created all things is going to be motivated and realizes
there's going to be information that can be found and it's worth
the the effort to go look for it.
But a person who already has made-up their mind and says
there's nothing out there, there's no God, there's no yadda

(02:51:29):
yadda yadda, why the hell would they even want to bother them?
Absolutely. They would want to have a
enjoyable life, basically. So I agree with you.
I mean, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more.
So there is motivation for people of faith to go and do the
work, do the right thing, be helpful, be I mean, not, not to

(02:51:52):
not to rule out that atheists are not helpful.
I'm not saying that. OK, it might not have.
Atheists are very good people. Some of them are very good
people. They're better than people of
religion sometimes. But yeah, you, you find these
goods and bads everywhere. And you also find bad people in

(02:52:14):
religion and you also find bad people in in atheist circles.
So you find good people and bad people that's everywhere and
it's in every country, every culture.
It's everywhere basically so. Exactly, that's the very reason
why we need God, because we are a messed up species.
Well, if you've got some family to take care or some things you

(02:52:36):
got to do, I completely understand.
It was a pleasure talking to youand I personally hope that your
intention and your mission to get people to get along with
each other works. That'd be really cool.
Let me know when that happens. Thank you so much, Brett.
I wish you all the best and God bless.
God bless you and your family. We'll see you later.

(02:52:58):
All right. God bless you man.
Take care. All right, we got somebody here
called Mush Mouth. Let me put something over the
screen. That way they don't do something
rude. You won't last long if you
scream out some nonsense. What's up?
Hey, man, have you ever played Far Cry?

(02:53:21):
That takes care of that. Just going to come in and start
jumping on about Far Cry. Oh, boy.
Doesn't say. Hey, how you doing, Brett Keane?
Let's have a good conversation. Just jumps right into it.
Got to learn how to not be so antisocial.
Let's see what we got all right.

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Brett Keane Live | Christian TTOR and Muslim Prophet Dan Talk Quran

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Brett Keane Live | Christian TTOR and Muslim Prophet Dan Talk Quran